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0:00:34 Introduction
0:01:12 Bioshock is Our New Overlord
0:01:49 Most Influential Game of the Generation?
Trademark Banter
0:05:04 PS4: To Pre-order, or not to pre-order, that is the question.
0:13:10 PS4 Launch Line-Up, Our Opinions.
Final Thoughts
0:16:09 Activision Hits Remixed (PSP)
0:17:54 How To Do a Collection Right
0:20:11 Best and Worst Collections in Gaming History (NB: Phil Forgets Super Mario All-Stars for SNES)
First Impressions
0:25:23 The Raven: Legacy of a Master Thief
0:43:26 Cinematics in Games
Final Thoughts
0:50:45 Killzone 3 (Spoilers Throughout)
First Impressions
1:04:05 Halo Combat Evolved (HD) 360
News
1:07:45 Ryan Davis is Dead
1:09:26 Dota 2 Is Out of Beta
1:09:31 GameStop is No Longer Taking PS4 Pre-Orders
1:10:44 Last of Us Sells 3.4 Million Copies
1:11:59 XBLA Summer of Arcade
1:12:30 Insomniac's New Ratchet and Clank
1:17:29 GTA5 Gameplay Footage Released (and why Rockstar is like Kanye West)
1:25:16 Nintendo Coming to Terms With HD Game Development (and Ubi's Comment on Zombie U 2)
1:32:05 Digital PS4 Games Accessible From Any Console
1:34:19 What Could Have Been: SEGA/Sony Buyout
Aural Review
1:35:57 Bioshock (Spoilers)
Transcript
WEBVTT
00:00:34.007 --> 00:00:38.807
Tom: Hello, and welcome to Episode 14 of The Game under.net Podcast.
00:00:38.827 --> 00:00:46.847
Tom: I've been told under Knifepoint to say that it was a great selection of music for the introduction by my co-host, Phil Fogg.
00:00:47.047 --> 00:00:48.847
Phil: Hello, I'm Phil Fogg, and you're?
00:00:49.047 --> 00:00:57.467
Tom: Tom Towers, and today we will be discussing Killzone 3, the week's news, the Activision great collection on the PSP.
00:00:57.487 --> 00:00:59.227
Tom: That's right, a PSP game.
00:01:00.207 --> 00:01:06.187
Tom: And I will be orally or orally, whichever you prefer, reviewing Bioshock.
00:01:06.207 --> 00:01:08.767
Tom: Not Infinite, not even 2, but the original.
00:01:09.187 --> 00:01:10.127
Phil: A timely review.
00:01:10.147 --> 00:01:12.247
Phil: I think that game was released in 2007.
00:01:12.467 --> 00:01:14.547
Tom: Yep, so I'm only about 6 years late.
00:01:14.847 --> 00:01:18.127
Phil: In you playing through the entire series, right?
00:01:18.147 --> 00:01:19.507
Phil: Bioshock 1, 2 and 3.
00:01:19.527 --> 00:01:21.207
Phil: So you've beaten 1 and 2, right?
00:01:21.287 --> 00:01:21.827
Tom: Correct.
00:01:21.867 --> 00:01:30.227
Tom: And so that means over the next 2 weeks, you will be forced to listen to even more Bioshock, including everyone's favorite Bioshock 2.
00:01:30.847 --> 00:01:37.147
Phil: Well, as we go into the next generation of consoles, I think it's actually entertaining to look back.
00:01:37.167 --> 00:01:39.187
Phil: You played through the Uncharted franchise.
00:01:39.207 --> 00:01:40.207
Phil: We were able to talk about that.
00:01:40.227 --> 00:01:41.707
Phil: Now you're playing through Bioshock.
00:01:42.547 --> 00:01:48.107
Phil: I myself am about to beat Bioshock Infinite, so we'll have some good discussion about that in the coming weeks.
00:01:48.367 --> 00:01:51.907
Phil: You know, I mean, what other great franchise of this generation could we play?
00:01:52.027 --> 00:01:56.287
Phil: I guess if you had a 360 or access to it, we could play the Gears of War franchise.
00:01:56.427 --> 00:02:04.727
Tom: That would probably be the, probably the most seminal Xbox franchise this series, this generation, in terms of influence, wouldn't you say?
00:02:05.027 --> 00:02:06.867
Phil: Well, certainly because of the engine.
00:02:07.147 --> 00:02:16.967
Phil: And because it was, you know, or Epic was able to, you know, basically show this, you know, generation of developers, you know, what their engine was capable of.
00:02:17.727 --> 00:02:19.527
Phil: So it was influential in that respect.
00:02:19.547 --> 00:02:28.507
Tom: But I would say also in terms of gameplay, such as the cover system, not that I've played Gears of War, but that appears to be the case from the outside looking in.
00:02:28.847 --> 00:02:29.587
Phil: Oh, definitely.
00:02:29.607 --> 00:02:37.687
Phil: I mean, you can't play a game, a third person game these days without having cover shooting in it, which they got from Kill.Switch.
00:02:37.907 --> 00:02:47.587
Phil: And they actually, I mean, I went back and played Kill.Switch because that's what Blazinski, you know, credits as inspiring him for Gears of War, along with Resident Evil 4.
00:02:48.167 --> 00:02:49.887
Phil: And he's not wrong.
00:02:49.967 --> 00:02:53.247
Phil: I mean, it's right there in that game, that Japanese third person shooter.
00:02:53.507 --> 00:02:55.027
Phil: It's a little bit difficult.
00:02:55.047 --> 00:02:57.147
Phil: I was not able to finish the game, but it's there.
00:02:57.207 --> 00:03:00.167
Phil: I mean, it's not like some vague influence.
00:03:00.547 --> 00:03:02.767
Phil: You can directly see how it influenced it.
00:03:02.947 --> 00:03:05.447
Tom: So by influence, you mean plagiarized, I take it.
00:03:06.067 --> 00:03:07.947
Phil: Yes, stolen outright.
00:03:08.007 --> 00:03:13.427
Phil: But I think probably the most influential game of this generation would have to be Braid.
00:03:13.707 --> 00:03:16.487
Tom: Well, that's not an Xbox game though.
00:03:16.727 --> 00:03:18.427
Phil: Remember, it was an Xbox exclusive.
00:03:18.627 --> 00:03:19.827
Tom: Didn't stay that way though.
00:03:20.567 --> 00:03:23.967
Phil: No, but it was an Xbox exclusive for a very long time.
00:03:24.247 --> 00:03:36.227
Phil: And the reason why I say it was influential is not necessarily because of the gameplay or anything else, but it was one of the first breakout titles on Xbox Live Arcade that wasn't a remade game.
00:03:36.247 --> 00:03:47.747
Phil: Xbox Live Arcade to that point had been basically things like Robotron 2084 and 1942, a Capcom scroller and things like that.
00:03:48.067 --> 00:04:01.667
Phil: And what Braid demonstrated in Geometry Wars, and what Braid and Geometry Wars together shown was that you can have a, quote, full game, be a downloadable game and have critical and commercial success.
00:04:01.787 --> 00:04:09.487
Tom: I think culturally it was also very influential in how it set the tone for the discussion on indie games this generation.
00:04:09.927 --> 00:04:17.187
Tom: If there had been no Braid, you would not have seen such an extremely positive response to stuff like Journey as well.
00:04:17.947 --> 00:04:19.767
Phil: Or even Super Meat Boy.
00:04:19.787 --> 00:04:20.687
Tom: Yep, absolutely.
00:04:20.747 --> 00:04:24.127
Phil: And certainly Super Meat Boy owes a lot to games like Alien Hominid.
00:04:24.987 --> 00:04:27.727
Phil: But Alien Hominid was the PC game for a long time.
00:04:28.347 --> 00:04:30.887
Phil: Then it came out as a retail release on the Xbox.
00:04:31.907 --> 00:04:41.987
Phil: But people are seeing that they are able to come up with games that can be 2D, can be platformers, and can have commercial and critical success and acceptance.
00:04:42.887 --> 00:04:50.847
Phil: I think that opened the whole way for the Xbox Live arcade games that were to come, like Limbo and other games that people like.
00:04:51.407 --> 00:04:59.727
Phil: Then for PlayStation, that's basically become PlayStation's shtick, where the home for weird little indie games that you can download.
00:05:01.227 --> 00:05:02.647
Phil: And also the Vita, of course.
00:05:03.407 --> 00:05:12.207
Phil: I don't know how we got into that, but speaking of the PlayStation, I figured we'd have our trademark banter section just really quickly.
00:05:12.567 --> 00:05:15.287
Phil: I wanted to pre-order a PlayStation 4 this weekend.
00:05:17.387 --> 00:05:22.167
Phil: And as a part of that, I said, I don't want to do what I did last time.
00:05:22.187 --> 00:05:24.327
Phil: I don't want to have a console and nothing to play on it.
00:05:24.867 --> 00:05:34.087
Phil: So I was looking at the launch lineup for the PlayStation 4 to see if there's a single game there that I could justify buying a PlayStation 4 for.
00:05:34.107 --> 00:05:36.867
Phil: So I figured we'd play a little game, and you can play along at home as well.
00:05:37.567 --> 00:05:44.707
Phil: Basically, I've got an alphabetical listing of games available on launch, and just yes, no, and if yes, why.
00:05:44.907 --> 00:05:49.887
Phil: So would you like to play any of these games on the launch of the PlayStation 4?
00:05:49.887 --> 00:05:54.107
Tom: Or is the question, rather, would that justify buying a PlayStation 4?
00:05:54.247 --> 00:05:55.347
Phil: Well, here's the deal.
00:05:55.467 --> 00:05:59.887
Phil: I'm going to get a PlayStation 4, mostly for this show, so I can talk about it.
00:06:00.407 --> 00:06:02.707
Phil: But I can't talk about it unless I've got a game to play.
00:06:03.407 --> 00:06:05.367
Phil: Otherwise, we may as well do a furniture show.
00:06:06.427 --> 00:06:12.087
Phil: I'm going to get one before the price drop, so I may as well get it when it's relevant on the first day.
00:06:13.007 --> 00:06:15.807
Phil: And I have had extremely good luck with Sony hardware.
00:06:15.867 --> 00:06:18.527
Phil: I know everyone's probably groaning at home, but I tell you the truth.
00:06:19.467 --> 00:06:24.647
Phil: All of my original PlayStation 1s, 2s and 3s are still operating, unless they're playing The Last of Us.
00:06:25.007 --> 00:06:27.747
Phil: And so, yeah, why not get it on launch day?
00:06:27.767 --> 00:06:28.487
Phil: So here's the list.
00:06:29.367 --> 00:06:31.867
Phil: Yes, no, and if yes, why?
00:06:31.947 --> 00:06:32.927
Phil: Assassin's Creed 4?
00:06:33.027 --> 00:06:33.227
Tom: No.
00:06:34.027 --> 00:06:35.707
Phil: No, for me, Battlefield 4?
00:06:35.727 --> 00:06:35.967
Tom: No.
00:06:36.567 --> 00:06:38.287
Phil: No, for me, Call of Duty Ghosts?
00:06:38.647 --> 00:06:41.927
Tom: Yes, to hear about it, I would say, but not to play it.
00:06:42.867 --> 00:06:44.667
Phil: Yeah, I wouldn't, yeah, me, no.
00:06:45.407 --> 00:06:46.687
Phil: DC Universe Online?
00:06:46.707 --> 00:06:46.907
Tom: No.
00:06:47.587 --> 00:06:47.887
Phil: No.
00:06:48.167 --> 00:06:49.027
Phil: Diablo 3?
00:06:49.147 --> 00:06:49.407
Tom: No.
00:06:50.087 --> 00:06:50.347
Phil: No.
00:06:50.527 --> 00:06:52.427
Phil: Why would you play the GIMP version, right?
00:06:52.447 --> 00:06:52.667
Tom: Exactly.
00:06:52.727 --> 00:06:54.567
Phil: I mean, if you like Diablo, just play it on PC.
00:06:54.587 --> 00:07:02.527
Tom: Well, if, you are presumably right about the DMR, as they do not have them on PC version, so you could argue you are actually playing the superior version in some ways.
00:07:03.167 --> 00:07:03.767
Phil: Yeah, man.
00:07:03.787 --> 00:07:06.587
Phil: Insofar as consumer rights are concerned.
00:07:06.827 --> 00:07:07.547
Phil: Drive Club?
00:07:08.007 --> 00:07:08.307
Tom: No.
00:07:08.927 --> 00:07:09.207
Phil: No.
00:07:09.527 --> 00:07:10.447
Phil: FIFA 14?
00:07:10.467 --> 00:07:10.867
Tom: Wait a minute.
00:07:10.887 --> 00:07:12.627
Tom: You were a big fan of Motor Storm, right?
00:07:13.867 --> 00:07:14.207
Phil: No.
00:07:14.567 --> 00:07:14.967
Phil: No.
00:07:16.487 --> 00:07:21.087
Phil: In fact, I played it a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and I haven't reviewed it on this show.
00:07:21.827 --> 00:07:23.567
Phil: But basically, here's my micro review.
00:07:24.387 --> 00:07:26.507
Phil: Looks great, but it plays itself.
00:07:26.907 --> 00:07:31.507
Phil: I basically was just pushing forward and the accelerator the entire time.
00:07:31.747 --> 00:07:34.767
Phil: It had absolutely no challenge whatsoever.
00:07:35.547 --> 00:07:36.467
Phil: Yeah, FIFA 14.
00:07:36.907 --> 00:07:45.167
Tom: Once again, I would love to hear you talk about FIFA 14, but I wouldn't buy a console for it or be that interested in it as a launch game.
00:07:45.387 --> 00:07:50.227
Tom: My one question would be, is the latest PES title also available on launch for the PS4?
00:07:50.247 --> 00:07:50.507
Phil: No.
00:07:51.067 --> 00:07:51.267
Phil: No.
00:07:51.487 --> 00:07:53.847
Tom: Because there I would have been more interested as they are.
00:07:53.887 --> 00:07:58.987
Tom: Once again, their slow resurgence is continuing, and this could be their year.
00:07:59.007 --> 00:07:59.067
Tom: Yeah.
00:08:00.267 --> 00:08:00.607
Phil: Yeah.
00:08:00.627 --> 00:08:14.787
Phil: I would not get it because of Derek's whole theory about sports games at new console launches and that, you know, it's basically the worst version to get because they strip out features and slowly re-add them in.
00:08:15.007 --> 00:08:15.307
Tom: Yeah.
00:08:15.507 --> 00:08:22.967
Phil: Or, you know, so I wouldn't even if it was a sports game I liked, like an NBA game or something, but I would not.
00:08:23.527 --> 00:08:25.327
Phil: I'd probably get MLB the show actually.
00:08:27.147 --> 00:08:29.167
Phil: Just Dance, 2014.
00:08:29.607 --> 00:08:33.267
Tom: Once again, I would love to hear you talk about that game, but I wouldn't want to play it.
00:08:33.767 --> 00:08:34.107
Phil: No.
00:08:34.407 --> 00:08:35.007
Phil: No for me.
00:08:35.207 --> 00:08:36.487
Phil: Killzone Shadow 4.
00:08:38.047 --> 00:08:39.707
Tom: No for getting a console 4.
00:08:41.007 --> 00:08:41.467
Phil: Yeah.
00:08:41.567 --> 00:08:42.427
Phil: Here's my deal.
00:08:42.867 --> 00:08:45.347
Phil: I really enjoyed Killzone 2.
00:08:45.627 --> 00:08:49.827
Phil: I thought Killzone 2 was a very, very solid shooter in every regard.
00:08:50.167 --> 00:08:58.267
Phil: I'll give my final impressions on Killzone 3, but on the basis of that, I would not want the next Killzone.
00:08:58.407 --> 00:09:04.827
Phil: I would wait and see to see what they're doing with the next Killzone, to see if it's going to be Army of Two again or Back to Form.
00:09:04.967 --> 00:09:05.247
Tom: Yeah.
00:09:05.267 --> 00:09:06.987
Phil: And I'd be very skeptical.
00:09:07.887 --> 00:09:10.507
Phil: You got Mark Cerny's Knack game?
00:09:10.847 --> 00:09:11.107
Tom: No.
00:09:11.687 --> 00:09:12.647
Phil: Looks like a kid's game.
00:09:13.147 --> 00:09:13.427
Phil: No.
00:09:14.427 --> 00:09:16.207
Phil: Lego Marvel Super Heroes?
00:09:16.767 --> 00:09:17.067
Tom: No.
00:09:17.707 --> 00:09:18.007
Phil: No.
00:09:18.187 --> 00:09:18.567
Phil: Madden?
00:09:18.927 --> 00:09:19.167
Phil: No.
00:09:19.767 --> 00:09:20.007
Tom: No.
00:09:21.807 --> 00:09:24.707
Phil: NBA 2K14 and NBA Live 14?
00:09:25.067 --> 00:09:25.667
Tom: Two No's.
00:09:26.727 --> 00:09:27.327
Phil: Exactly.
00:09:28.027 --> 00:09:28.867
Phil: Skylanders?
00:09:28.947 --> 00:09:29.267
Tom: No.
00:09:29.947 --> 00:09:30.287
Phil: No.
00:09:30.727 --> 00:09:31.927
Phil: Something called Warframe?
00:09:32.067 --> 00:09:32.987
Tom: I don't know what that is.
00:09:33.687 --> 00:09:36.307
Phil: It's probably something you put around a wall to make it look better.
00:09:36.927 --> 00:09:37.767
Phil: I'm going to say no.
00:09:39.267 --> 00:09:40.087
Phil: And Watch Dogs?
00:09:40.487 --> 00:09:40.727
Phil: No.
00:09:41.487 --> 00:09:41.747
Phil: No.
00:09:41.927 --> 00:09:43.167
Phil: I have no interest in Watch Dogs.
00:09:43.207 --> 00:09:47.367
Phil: And people are probably screaming about that as well, and I'll just say I don't like Ubisoft games.
00:09:47.527 --> 00:09:47.907
Phil: Sorry.
00:09:47.927 --> 00:09:56.407
Tom: Well, I have an interest in it, but there's no way that is a console seller in any way, shape or form, especially considering it's coming to basically every console under the sun.
00:09:57.087 --> 00:09:57.447
Phil: Yeah.
00:09:57.887 --> 00:09:58.207
Phil: Yeah.
00:09:58.447 --> 00:09:59.787
Phil: Yeah.
00:09:59.807 --> 00:10:00.647
Phil: I think this is the one.
00:10:01.207 --> 00:10:06.587
Phil: Assassin's Creed, I think, is getting like an additional 46 minutes of content they're promoting or something like that.
00:10:06.607 --> 00:10:06.867
Tom: Yeah.
00:10:07.367 --> 00:10:11.667
Phil: I mean, I have as much interest in Watch Dogs as I would.
00:10:11.687 --> 00:10:14.827
Phil: It's kind of like one of those second tier games that I'd get used.
00:10:15.167 --> 00:10:15.407
Tom: Yeah.
00:10:15.847 --> 00:10:17.387
Phil: It's nothing I'd want to play.
00:10:17.587 --> 00:10:23.487
Phil: And why I don't like Ubisoft games, just so everyone knows, is I just don't like their games.
00:10:23.507 --> 00:10:25.587
Phil: I don't like Assassin's Creed.
00:10:25.607 --> 00:10:28.047
Phil: I don't like Prince of Persia after the first one.
00:10:29.367 --> 00:10:29.987
Phil: And I don't like...
00:10:30.367 --> 00:10:52.967
Phil: I like Splinter Cell, but I just also don't like their business practice of slamming every launch with a bunch of shovelware or catching on to a game that's good and then just milking it to death until everyone hates it, which is what they did with Prince of Persia, they did it with Splinter Cell, they've done it with Assassin's Creed now, and I just don't want to be a part of that cycle.
00:10:53.107 --> 00:11:01.647
Tom: I think what the case actually is given that you can't actually come up with a particularly coherent reason for disliking The Gays and The Cells.
00:11:02.687 --> 00:11:14.727
Tom: Long time listeners of the podcast will remember this, but it's well documented that you are highly xenophobic against the French and European culture, so I'm thinking that's probably the actual reason you don't like Ubisoft games.
00:11:15.687 --> 00:11:20.807
Phil: That may well be, but the primary reason is I don't like how they control, either.
00:11:21.967 --> 00:11:25.447
Phil: And also the xenophobia, racism, if you will.
00:11:25.567 --> 00:11:26.667
Phil: Perhaps, I don't know.
00:11:27.667 --> 00:11:29.727
Phil: I know you don't have an aversion to European games.
00:11:29.747 --> 00:11:30.887
Phil: It seems to be all you play.
00:11:32.967 --> 00:11:35.247
Phil: So, okay, so it's a big no.
00:11:35.247 --> 00:11:41.107
Phil: I mean, but I got to preorder this stupid thing, and so I'm hoping that these are all American games here.
00:11:41.127 --> 00:11:44.387
Phil: I'm hoping that at TGS, they announce something that I'd want, right?
00:11:44.467 --> 00:11:47.267
Phil: Like a good old JRPG or...
00:11:47.387 --> 00:11:53.347
Tom: That is a little odd that there are basically no Japanese games there in the launch lineup for the PS4.
00:11:54.107 --> 00:11:54.807
Phil: Absolutely none.
00:11:54.947 --> 00:11:56.087
Phil: Not a single one.
00:11:56.107 --> 00:12:03.827
Phil: And so they do have the Tokyo Game Show, so I see as a way of making, of apologizing to the Japanese people for announcing the system in the United States.
00:12:04.387 --> 00:12:07.847
Phil: At TGS, they might be holding some cards back.
00:12:08.727 --> 00:12:13.927
Phil: I can't believe that they wouldn't be having major Japanese developers not represented on launch day.
00:12:14.247 --> 00:12:17.967
Tom: Do you really think TGS is the avenue where they will be announcing this though?
00:12:17.987 --> 00:12:21.287
Tom: I mean, no one cares about TGS anymore.
00:12:23.627 --> 00:12:24.947
Phil: No one in Japan cares.
00:12:24.947 --> 00:12:29.207
Phil: It's basically a mobile phone convention, but it's all they got.
00:12:29.707 --> 00:12:34.867
Phil: And if you're going to pander to the Japanese audience, you may as well do it in Japan as opposed to Gamescom.
00:12:35.767 --> 00:12:39.667
Tom: But at the same time, you just said no one in Japan cares about TGS.
00:12:40.007 --> 00:12:47.667
Tom: Even though it is located in Japan, it still doesn't seem like a particularly good place to use to apologize to the Japanese people.
00:12:47.807 --> 00:12:58.987
Phil: If you're going to apologize, you may as well do it on their soil, which is a reason for us to go on a Japanese tour one of these days so we can personally apologize.
00:12:59.847 --> 00:13:01.947
Tom: To all our Japanese xenophobia.
00:13:03.047 --> 00:13:06.907
Tom: Before we move on, I just want to say, what do you think of this as a launch lineup?
00:13:07.467 --> 00:13:09.847
Tom: It seems really boring to me.
00:13:10.867 --> 00:13:14.387
Phil: Well, we just obviously proven that to us it's boring.
00:13:14.527 --> 00:13:17.447
Phil: I would say that this is an amazing lineup.
00:13:17.467 --> 00:13:28.587
Phil: You've got tent pole franchises there, like Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, Call of Duty, Just Dance, Killzone, Madden, NBA, FIFA, Diablo, right?
00:13:28.907 --> 00:13:32.947
Phil: And then you've got new games like Drive Club, which some people think is going to be free.
00:13:33.467 --> 00:13:39.707
Phil: For the kids, you've got Knack and LEGO Marvel Super Heroes, and Just Dance is a family game.
00:13:40.487 --> 00:13:41.787
Phil: Skyland is for the kids.
00:13:41.847 --> 00:13:47.187
Phil: And then, like I said, you've got Call of Duty, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, Warframe, Watch Dogs, FIFA, NBA.
00:13:48.607 --> 00:13:51.927
Phil: And then for the nerds, you've got DC Universe Online.
00:13:51.947 --> 00:13:58.927
Phil: So I think as a lineup, if you are the people that like those games, I think it's a great lineup.
00:13:58.987 --> 00:14:00.587
Phil: Now, you know, what do we want, you know?
00:14:01.687 --> 00:14:03.787
Phil: I mean, they're giving you a Killzone.
00:14:04.227 --> 00:14:10.727
Phil: So I guess if they throw in Yakuza and some JRPG that no one gives a shit about, then yeah.
00:14:10.747 --> 00:14:11.967
Tom: So Yakuza then?
00:14:12.787 --> 00:14:13.127
Phil: Yeah.
00:14:13.787 --> 00:14:14.267
Tom: I don't know.
00:14:14.287 --> 00:14:15.607
Tom: I think to me this is just...
00:14:16.207 --> 00:14:18.827
Tom: There's too many games that are way too similar.
00:14:19.107 --> 00:14:21.867
Tom: I mean, do you really need that many kids' games, for example?
00:14:22.727 --> 00:14:23.187
Phil: Yes.
00:14:23.707 --> 00:14:26.787
Phil: I mean, obviously they could play Skylanders forever, right?
00:14:27.107 --> 00:14:31.927
Phil: But then you give them something else, like Just Dance, and they love the sports games and LEGO Marvel Super Heroes.
00:14:31.947 --> 00:14:32.467
Phil: That's fine.
00:14:32.967 --> 00:14:36.007
Phil: And then for the mature audience, you have all the shooters and the sports games.
00:14:38.107 --> 00:14:40.267
Phil: And yeah.
00:14:40.287 --> 00:14:47.947
Phil: I mean, I would like to see more of the arty stuff as well being promoted, but they might do that at Gamescom in Europe.
00:14:48.647 --> 00:14:53.447
Phil: They might reveal that, because they are working heavily with a lot of independent publishers.
00:14:55.667 --> 00:15:05.727
Phil: I know Mike Bithold is working with them, so they might be saving that for the European game show, since they are more cultured than the rest of us.
00:15:06.747 --> 00:15:08.367
Phil: So you think it's a lousy launch line up.
00:15:08.447 --> 00:15:09.827
Phil: None of these games talk to me.
00:15:10.467 --> 00:15:15.507
Phil: Killzone might be an argument just to see what Guerrilla Games is doing on new hardware.
00:15:15.887 --> 00:15:23.667
Phil: And if there was an MLB game, it's the wrong time of year for an MLB game, but if there was an MLB game at the show, I would also be hella interested.
00:15:24.507 --> 00:15:32.407
Phil: If there were an arcade racing game, I'd be down for that as well, because those are the kind of games that do well at launch.
00:15:32.447 --> 00:15:43.507
Tom: So now that we have established that you're getting a PS4 game anyway, if these are the only games that are launching, what will you be buying, despite the fact that you have no interest in any of them except possibly Killzone?
00:15:43.947 --> 00:15:48.927
Phil: Yeah, I'd probably get Killzone, and then just see what was available online from PSN.
00:15:51.327 --> 00:15:57.427
Phil: And just be satisfied with that, because that would certainly give us enough material for this show, and I've got plenty of other games to play on the old console.
00:15:57.507 --> 00:16:00.687
Tom: If you're getting Killzone just for that reason, you've got to get FIFA as well.
00:16:01.227 --> 00:16:02.227
Phil: Oh, gosh, you know what?
00:16:02.247 --> 00:16:04.467
Phil: Maybe I'd get FIFA instead of Killzone.
00:16:04.487 --> 00:16:05.987
Tom: That's fine with me, that would work too.
00:16:06.627 --> 00:16:07.707
Phil: Just to punch our listeners.
00:16:07.727 --> 00:16:07.907
Tom: Yeah.
00:16:08.807 --> 00:16:15.847
Phil: I wanted to give just quickly a first impression of a game that I mentioned last week I got for free, Activision Hits Remixed.
00:16:16.847 --> 00:16:17.067
Tom: Yep.
00:16:18.667 --> 00:16:23.947
Phil: This includes over 40 classics remixed, and I thought at that point it would be kind of cool.
00:16:24.567 --> 00:16:34.167
Phil: These are basically games for the Atari 2600, and they're only Activision games, but quite frankly, the Activision games were the best games on the system.
00:16:34.187 --> 00:16:36.807
Phil: There were bad versions of Space Invaders and Pac-Man.
00:16:36.827 --> 00:16:41.307
Phil: I liked them, and I still do like them to this day, but everyone else says they're bad.
00:16:42.427 --> 00:16:56.707
Phil: But these Activision, they've got games like Pitfall, River Raid, Demon's Attack, which is on my top five games of all time, Atlantis, Ice Hockey, Plak Attack, which is basically...
00:16:56.727 --> 00:16:57.987
Tom: Plak Attack, as in teeth?
00:16:58.087 --> 00:17:03.147
Phil: Yes, you attack Plak with a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush.
00:17:04.647 --> 00:17:07.067
Tom: I hope that's also in your top five games of all time.
00:17:07.607 --> 00:17:08.467
Phil: Unfortunately not.
00:17:08.547 --> 00:17:16.527
Phil: River Raid 1 and 2, Laser Blast, Stampede, which is an amazing 2D side-scroller where you're on a horse and you have to rope little calves.
00:17:17.127 --> 00:17:19.567
Phil: So, you know, it kind of mirrors my real life.
00:17:20.387 --> 00:17:22.167
Tom: How realistic is it?
00:17:22.427 --> 00:17:24.947
Tom: As a farmer, you can comment on how realistic it is.
00:17:25.647 --> 00:17:29.567
Phil: Well, it's more of a horse racing game, so it's not very realistic at all.
00:17:30.287 --> 00:17:36.027
Phil: Fishing Derby, Freeway, which is where you play with two players and you have little chickens that have to cross a freeway.
00:17:36.567 --> 00:17:38.527
Phil: I mean, why cross the road when you could cross a freeway?
00:17:38.547 --> 00:17:39.487
Tom: So that's basically Frogger.
00:17:39.847 --> 00:17:42.087
Phil: No, it's not as good as Frogger.
00:17:42.107 --> 00:17:44.127
Phil: It's more faster paced than Frogger, though.
00:17:44.767 --> 00:17:47.827
Phil: Fishing Derby is a great game where you compete against another person to fish.
00:17:48.627 --> 00:17:51.447
Phil: Now, Phil, why would you be talking about this?
00:17:52.207 --> 00:17:57.987
Phil: This is a series of games from a hundred years ago that no one in this century cares about.
00:17:58.007 --> 00:17:58.807
Tom: Well, I do.
00:17:59.207 --> 00:18:03.767
Phil: Well, the fact is, right, number one, this is the way to do a collection.
00:18:04.647 --> 00:18:12.447
Phil: All of these games, you can play with someone on another PSP with no additional cartridge or UMD.
00:18:13.067 --> 00:18:22.667
Phil: So basically, you turn on the game sharing option and it enables you to basically upload the game to someone else's PSP and let them play it for free.
00:18:22.687 --> 00:18:25.147
Tom: Is this a limited or unlimited number of times?
00:18:25.367 --> 00:18:26.447
Phil: Unlimited number of times.
00:18:26.447 --> 00:18:27.587
Phil: They do have to be locally.
00:18:27.887 --> 00:18:30.847
Phil: They do have to be local, right?
00:18:30.907 --> 00:18:31.587
Phil: That's pretty good.
00:18:31.727 --> 00:18:41.527
Phil: Number two, they include all of the TV ads for all of the games you can unlock them when you get high scores on each of the games.
00:18:41.547 --> 00:18:43.527
Phil: You get to see the TV ads for the games.
00:18:43.547 --> 00:18:44.067
Tom: That's awesome.
00:18:44.987 --> 00:18:46.287
Phil: If one is available.
00:18:46.647 --> 00:18:48.207
Phil: Again, this is how you do a collection.
00:18:49.327 --> 00:18:56.647
Phil: Number three, they include all of the original packaging and manuals, digitally represented on screen, of course.
00:18:57.247 --> 00:19:00.027
Phil: So you're thinking, Phil, how could this possibly get any better?
00:19:00.147 --> 00:19:02.407
Phil: That is a great way to do a collection, right?
00:19:02.667 --> 00:19:06.367
Phil: All the manuals, share it with someone else for free, all the best games.
00:19:06.727 --> 00:19:08.127
Phil: How could they possibly make it better?
00:19:08.787 --> 00:19:13.507
Phil: They include featured 80s hits soundtrack.
00:19:14.647 --> 00:19:15.667
Phil: So why are you playing the game?
00:19:15.687 --> 00:19:18.327
Tom: Are these relevant to the games or are they just songs from the 80s?
00:19:18.347 --> 00:19:19.447
Phil: Just 80s music.
00:19:19.527 --> 00:19:29.907
Phil: So we're not going to take it by Twisted Sister, It's My Life by Talk Talk, Mexican Radio, Tainted Love, Walking in LA, The Tide is High by Blondie.
00:19:29.927 --> 00:19:33.827
Tom: Does this play while you're playing the game or is it on the menus or something?
00:19:33.987 --> 00:19:36.087
Phil: No, you can play it and you can change it.
00:19:36.727 --> 00:19:38.867
Phil: Safety Dance, Take On Me, Harden My Heart.
00:19:38.947 --> 00:19:40.727
Phil: It just goes on and on.
00:19:40.747 --> 00:19:45.007
Phil: They've got top tier 80s songs, fully licensed songs.
00:19:45.967 --> 00:19:52.307
Phil: You can turn them off or turn them on or if you don't like a particular song, you press the left or right trigger to move on to the next song.
00:19:53.307 --> 00:20:01.547
Phil: This is a ridiculous amount of value for a warmed over, you know, collection.
00:20:01.967 --> 00:20:03.867
Phil: Yep, that's pretty incredible.
00:20:03.887 --> 00:20:06.007
Phil: Yeah, it's incredible.
00:20:06.887 --> 00:20:08.867
Phil: I mean, you know, so nothing else to say on that.
00:20:09.867 --> 00:20:16.027
Phil: My only other question to you would be, have you ever, like, dallyed in these collections before?
00:20:16.047 --> 00:20:18.027
Phil: Do you have any particular highlights or lowlights?
00:20:18.247 --> 00:20:21.207
Tom: I don't think I've ever bought a collection of this variety.
00:20:21.867 --> 00:20:22.407
Phil: Why not?
00:20:23.087 --> 00:20:28.067
Tom: Because, I mean, half the games are complete trap, basically.
00:20:28.607 --> 00:20:30.407
Phil: So you haven't bought any of these?
00:20:30.407 --> 00:20:31.587
Tom: No, not a single one.
00:20:31.927 --> 00:20:38.347
Tom: Unless I've forgotten something in my dark past somewhere, but as far as I can remember now, I have never bought one.
00:20:38.947 --> 00:20:48.787
Phil: Well, these collections are, of course, no longer ever going to be made again, because now they can sell these games individually for, you know, $4.99 or $3.99, right?
00:20:49.267 --> 00:20:54.987
Phil: So it's kind of like in the original Animal Crossing, or rather the original Western Animal Crossing for the GameCube.
00:20:56.367 --> 00:20:57.987
Phil: They included many NES games.
00:20:58.007 --> 00:21:02.727
Phil: Now these were stupid NES games like Donkey Kong Math and things like that.
00:21:02.807 --> 00:21:03.827
Tom: Were they the full games?
00:21:04.347 --> 00:21:05.167
Phil: Yeah, the full games.
00:21:06.007 --> 00:21:10.707
Phil: You would dig them up or you could buy them or trade for them, and you could take them home.
00:21:10.727 --> 00:21:16.467
Phil: You'd have an NES system in your virtual house, and you could play them on screen.
00:21:17.047 --> 00:21:22.127
Phil: And of course, that would never happen now, because now Nintendo can sell those for $1.99, right?
00:21:22.807 --> 00:21:26.167
Phil: And that's why all of these collections will no longer come out anymore.
00:21:27.907 --> 00:21:34.767
Phil: Another great collection was the Capcom Classics Collection Volume 2, right?
00:21:34.787 --> 00:21:35.667
Tom: Yep.
00:21:36.107 --> 00:21:45.947
Phil: It was just an amazing collection, and again, they did similar types of things, including original concept art, which is also original concept art, soundtracks.
00:21:46.307 --> 00:21:52.007
Phil: They gave you all sorts of emulation options in terms of how you want to present them on the screen.
00:21:52.887 --> 00:21:56.687
Phil: You can put a filter on them to make them look smooth or if you like, chunky pixels.
00:21:57.627 --> 00:21:58.687
Phil: So that was another good one.
00:21:58.707 --> 00:22:01.047
Phil: That was released for the PlayStation 2 and Xbox.
00:22:02.807 --> 00:22:06.927
Phil: The second worst one I ever got was Midway Arcade Treasures 3.
00:22:06.987 --> 00:22:10.887
Phil: So Midway released a series of games under the Arcade Treasures line.
00:22:12.147 --> 00:22:15.287
Phil: And the last one and the third one, each one had a theme.
00:22:15.827 --> 00:22:19.267
Phil: The third one was all their racing games, right?
00:22:19.567 --> 00:22:20.787
Tom: So why is this terrible?
00:22:21.787 --> 00:22:22.947
Phil: Well, it's terrible.
00:22:23.347 --> 00:22:26.887
Phil: It's good because it has San Francisco Rush 2049.
00:22:29.027 --> 00:22:31.327
Phil: That's basically the only game on here worth playing.
00:22:31.347 --> 00:22:33.207
Phil: And San Francisco Rush The Rock Out Treasures.
00:22:33.227 --> 00:22:35.647
Phil: And they have a bunch of really bad arcade games, you know?
00:22:36.207 --> 00:22:44.027
Phil: The reason why this is bad is because Midway's greatest racing series outside of Rush was Cruisen, right?
00:22:44.407 --> 00:22:47.287
Phil: Cruisen USA, Cruisen World, Cruisen Exotica.
00:22:47.987 --> 00:22:53.467
Phil: And of course, because they're Nintendo exclusives, they're not included in the Midway arcade treasures.
00:22:54.227 --> 00:22:57.107
Tom: So they're missing the only relevant games, basically.
00:22:57.247 --> 00:22:59.187
Phil: They're missing the seminal games.
00:22:59.747 --> 00:23:01.347
Phil: And this is the thing, right?
00:23:01.407 --> 00:23:02.907
Phil: Cruisen was an arcade hit.
00:23:04.307 --> 00:23:08.447
Phil: But Nintendo had the exclusive rights for console distribution of those games.
00:23:08.447 --> 00:23:10.707
Phil: And that apparently extends to collections.
00:23:12.607 --> 00:23:14.527
Phil: So no Cruisen.
00:23:14.827 --> 00:23:16.127
Phil: Not even the arcade versions.
00:23:16.747 --> 00:23:18.467
Phil: Which would be amazing to play.
00:23:18.487 --> 00:23:18.687
Tom: Yeah.
00:23:19.367 --> 00:23:25.667
Tom: So that's kind of ridiculous to make a racing-themed collection and admit them.
00:23:25.907 --> 00:23:27.287
Phil: Yeah, I'm trying to think what...
00:23:27.367 --> 00:23:28.887
Phil: I mean, what else would it be?
00:23:28.907 --> 00:23:36.367
Phil: It would be like, I don't know, EA Sports coming out and not having Madden in there or not having FIFA in there, you know, in a collection or whatever.
00:23:37.267 --> 00:23:43.067
Phil: All right, so one day when I was drunk on Amazon, I saw a PlayStation 2 game that I absolutely had to have, right?
00:23:43.887 --> 00:23:46.727
Phil: Now, it's called Ultimate Board Game Collection.
00:23:47.987 --> 00:23:48.387
Phil: Okay?
00:23:48.407 --> 00:23:48.647
Tom: Yeah.
00:23:49.327 --> 00:23:52.407
Phil: Ultimate Board Game Collection, 20 classics from around the world.
00:23:52.547 --> 00:23:53.987
Phil: So think about the top...
00:23:54.507 --> 00:23:56.907
Phil: Think of some classic board games.
00:23:57.707 --> 00:23:59.307
Tom: Pac-Man on the PS2.
00:24:00.167 --> 00:24:01.167
Phil: Board games.
00:24:01.267 --> 00:24:04.307
Tom: Yeah, there was a board game, there was a Pac-Man board game on the PS2.
00:24:06.647 --> 00:24:07.027
Phil: No, no.
00:24:07.747 --> 00:24:11.747
Tom: Oh, you mean non-video game board games.
00:24:12.027 --> 00:24:13.207
Phil: Like Hungry Hungry Hippos.
00:24:13.227 --> 00:24:13.767
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
00:24:14.347 --> 00:24:15.227
Tom: Snakes and Ladders.
00:24:15.947 --> 00:24:16.667
Tom: Cash Flow.
00:24:17.387 --> 00:24:18.187
Phil: Candy Land.
00:24:20.147 --> 00:24:20.767
Phil: Monopoly.
00:24:21.647 --> 00:24:21.947
Phil: Right?
00:24:22.787 --> 00:24:23.287
Phil: Scrabble.
00:24:23.307 --> 00:24:27.707
Tom: None of which are as good as the board games I made myself, though, but continue on.
00:24:28.507 --> 00:24:30.387
Phil: Jenga, kind of a board game.
00:24:31.447 --> 00:24:34.427
Phil: So, I get it, and here are the games that they include.
00:24:34.447 --> 00:24:34.607
Tom: Yep.
00:24:35.967 --> 00:24:36.507
Phil: Checkers.
00:24:38.147 --> 00:24:38.607
Phil: Chess.
00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:40.327
Phil: Backgammon.
00:24:41.747 --> 00:24:43.167
Phil: 100 Jigsaw Puzzles.
00:24:44.407 --> 00:24:45.507
Phil: Chinese Checkers.
00:24:46.407 --> 00:24:47.207
Phil: Mahjong.
00:24:48.127 --> 00:24:48.867
Phil: Dominoes.
00:24:48.887 --> 00:24:52.547
Tom: Okay, technically a lot of those do actually involve a board.
00:24:55.607 --> 00:24:58.647
Phil: Basically every game that doesn't have a license.
00:24:58.667 --> 00:24:58.927
Tom: Yep.
00:25:00.227 --> 00:25:01.887
Phil: I don't want to play Mahjong.
00:25:01.887 --> 00:25:02.407
Phil: I don't know...
00:25:03.167 --> 00:25:03.787
Phil: I don't know.
00:25:04.127 --> 00:25:05.007
Phil: Chinese Checkers?
00:25:05.027 --> 00:25:05.387
Phil: No.
00:25:06.027 --> 00:25:06.527
Phil: Checkers?
00:25:06.547 --> 00:25:06.847
Phil: No.
00:25:07.707 --> 00:25:08.127
Phil: Anyway.
00:25:08.347 --> 00:25:14.367
Phil: So it does say that you can set your mood by choosing from classical, pop and rock musical styles.
00:25:15.067 --> 00:25:16.627
Phil: So, no actual licensed music.
00:25:16.627 --> 00:25:16.947
Tom: Yep.
00:25:17.827 --> 00:25:18.527
Phil: Um, so...
00:25:18.867 --> 00:25:20.107
Phil: Yeah, that was terrible.
00:25:20.347 --> 00:25:22.227
Phil: Terrible, terrible collection.
00:25:22.827 --> 00:25:23.207
Tom: Excellent.
00:25:23.207 --> 00:25:27.627
Tom: So, we'll move on to The Raven Legacy of a Master Theif, then, shall we?
00:25:29.167 --> 00:25:29.987
Phil: Yes, sir.
00:25:30.247 --> 00:25:33.027
Phil: Now, The Raven Legacy of a Master Theif.
00:25:33.047 --> 00:25:36.607
Phil: In preparation for this show, I actually read several previews of this game.
00:25:37.407 --> 00:25:40.687
Phil: And I still have no idea what the hell is going on with this.
00:25:40.707 --> 00:25:44.027
Phil: This is a point and click adventure by Nordic Games.
00:25:44.047 --> 00:25:48.247
Tom: Who, uh, their claim to fame is the Book of Unwritten Tales series.
00:25:48.967 --> 00:25:53.847
Tom: And I'm actually confused, what was the general prevailing opinion of the previews?
00:25:54.167 --> 00:26:02.847
Phil: Well, they said that it's set in the 1960s in Europe and that it was romantic in theme.
00:26:03.767 --> 00:26:15.427
Phil: And it was kind of a swashbuckling introduction followed by a vaguely enjoyable atmospheric play through the game.
00:26:15.587 --> 00:26:19.687
Phil: And I'm trying to avoid saying specifics because I know you're going to get into it here.
00:26:20.467 --> 00:26:22.207
Phil: But that was the general thing.
00:26:22.227 --> 00:26:26.567
Phil: But I actually had to go to like three different sites before I found out it was a point and click adventure.
00:26:27.427 --> 00:26:34.587
Phil: Because after I read all those other previews, I'm still like, okay, they didn't tell me what format it's on, which is Windows, Xbox and PlayStation 3.
00:26:34.607 --> 00:26:34.827
Tom: Yep.
00:26:34.827 --> 00:26:35.167
Phil: Right?
00:26:35.507 --> 00:26:37.307
Phil: They didn't tell me what genre it was.
00:26:37.547 --> 00:26:39.507
Tom: Did they tell you that it was episodic as well?
00:26:39.587 --> 00:26:43.007
Phil: They said that it was the first in three episodes.
00:26:43.027 --> 00:26:45.287
Phil: All of them mentioned that, so that must have been in the press release.
00:26:45.307 --> 00:26:45.487
Phil: Yep.
00:26:47.187 --> 00:26:48.447
Phil: It's just astonishing though.
00:26:48.787 --> 00:26:52.567
Tom: It wasn't just the episodic that was in the press release.
00:26:52.587 --> 00:27:01.227
Tom: They also included, at least the press release I got, with the review code, they also included, quite clearly that it was in fact a point and click adventure game.
00:27:02.147 --> 00:27:13.767
Phil: Well, I know, but just a tip out there for people writing previews, if you're not going to have a fact box on the side panel, mention it in the first paragraph or so, so we know what the hell we're looking about.
00:27:13.787 --> 00:27:18.407
Phil: Because judging by the graphics, you wouldn't necessarily think this was a point and click adventure.
00:27:18.427 --> 00:27:34.487
Tom: I think you would, but beyond that, we all know I generally avoid doing backstory, but in a preview, that's where you generally want to include the backstory, as when you're previewing a game, most people reading the preview aren't actually necessarily going to know what the game is.
00:27:34.787 --> 00:27:35.307
Phil: Exactly.
00:27:35.307 --> 00:27:44.787
Phil: In a review, it's not necessary, because by the time a review comes out, the commercial product is out, and someone is expressing enough interest in it to come and look at your information.
00:27:44.787 --> 00:27:51.227
Tom: And the sites themselves have also no doubt given the backstory in their own previews and previous coverage.
00:27:51.247 --> 00:27:55.707
Phil: Whereas in a preview, you kind of just breeze through preview sections, because you're like, oh, what's this?
00:27:55.867 --> 00:27:57.727
Phil: Trying to discover something new.
00:27:58.787 --> 00:28:02.627
Phil: Make an effort to explain exactly what it is in your first paragraph.
00:28:02.767 --> 00:28:04.587
Phil: I'm going to give you an opportunity for a first paragraph.
00:28:04.647 --> 00:28:08.167
Phil: Go ahead and impress us with your educational skills.
00:28:08.187 --> 00:28:15.967
Tom: Okay, well, first things first, I'm not going to do much backstory, because I'm going to just continue with the theme of these ridiculous previews.
00:28:15.987 --> 00:28:19.647
Tom: This isn't really a preview so much as a first impression.
00:28:19.767 --> 00:28:38.627
Tom: And I think the most interesting thing about the game, which you do find out at the very beginning, is who the protagonist appears to be, which is a man in the twilight of his years, at the very least, late middle age, some incompetent, perhaps incompetent, policemen, Swiss policemen.
00:28:39.107 --> 00:28:53.387
Tom: And I'm actually going to veer off from the game to a certain prevailing, shall we say, tract of modern video game press and culture, is people complaining about a lack of female protagonists, right?
00:28:53.687 --> 00:28:54.627
Phil: Yeah, that's been a theme.
00:28:54.967 --> 00:28:57.227
Phil: I mean, we're making up for it this year though.
00:28:57.247 --> 00:28:57.507
Tom: Yep.
00:28:57.527 --> 00:29:04.707
Tom: Now, wouldn't you say that there have actually been far less elderly protagonists in video games than females?
00:29:05.427 --> 00:29:06.827
Phil: Yeah, I'm trying to think of one.
00:29:06.847 --> 00:29:10.387
Phil: I guess Agent 47 might be older.
00:29:11.167 --> 00:29:13.347
Phil: You've got Sully, but he's more of a side character.
00:29:13.367 --> 00:29:16.007
Phil: You never actually play as Sully in any of the Uncharted games.
00:29:16.667 --> 00:29:18.307
Phil: Yeah, he's a sidekick.
00:29:18.627 --> 00:29:19.407
Phil: You make him sound so...
00:29:19.607 --> 00:29:27.967
Phil: He's a second banana, except for that old bag in Uncharted 3, which only appears in cutscenes in that one part at the end of the game.
00:29:27.967 --> 00:29:29.747
Tom: Which is also a cutscene, by the way.
00:29:29.907 --> 00:29:30.687
Phil: You're right.
00:29:30.707 --> 00:29:32.187
Phil: You don't actually get to do anything there.
00:29:32.507 --> 00:29:34.927
Phil: But yeah, the elderly are underrepresented.
00:29:34.947 --> 00:29:38.347
Phil: You could make an argument for Joel in The Last of Us.
00:29:38.427 --> 00:29:42.047
Phil: He is probably in his very late 40s.
00:29:43.527 --> 00:29:44.527
Tom: I think the big one...
00:29:45.107 --> 00:29:46.987
Tom: Late 40s is hardly old.
00:29:47.007 --> 00:29:48.667
Tom: That's just beginning middle age.
00:29:49.207 --> 00:29:51.867
Tom: You stay late 40s only because you were so young.
00:29:52.627 --> 00:29:53.087
Phil: Yeah.
00:29:53.527 --> 00:29:54.867
Phil: Okay, so elderly people.
00:29:55.287 --> 00:29:56.367
Phil: Oh, Henry Hatsworth.
00:29:56.887 --> 00:29:57.907
Phil: Henry Hatsworth.
00:29:57.927 --> 00:29:58.407
Tom: There's one.
00:29:59.267 --> 00:30:02.627
Tom: I think you're forgetting the biggest one, though, that I can think of, and that is...
00:30:03.067 --> 00:30:04.367
Phil: The Judge in Phoenix Wright?
00:30:04.367 --> 00:30:05.447
Tom: No, no, no, no, no.
00:30:05.447 --> 00:30:11.087
Tom: The main character in Killer 7, who is not only old, but disabled as well.
00:30:11.487 --> 00:30:12.987
Phil: I haven't played enough of that game.
00:30:13.127 --> 00:30:14.127
Phil: Is he in a wheelchair?
00:30:14.127 --> 00:30:16.227
Tom: Yup, he's in a wheelchair and he's old.
00:30:17.287 --> 00:30:18.587
Tom: How did you not notice this?
00:30:19.427 --> 00:30:22.827
Tom: You see this basically at the beginning of the game, if I remember correctly.
00:30:24.247 --> 00:30:28.507
Phil: I only played the first five minutes probably about seven years ago.
00:30:28.527 --> 00:30:35.427
Tom: The multiple personalities may have confused you, as his other personalities are neither old nor disabled.
00:30:36.047 --> 00:30:36.847
Phil: But that's a good one.
00:30:36.887 --> 00:30:39.987
Phil: So this old dude, he's like an old cat burglar?
00:30:40.427 --> 00:30:40.967
Tom: No, no, no.
00:30:40.987 --> 00:30:43.687
Tom: Well, we don't know if he's a cat burglar, but presumably he's not.
00:30:43.707 --> 00:31:12.547
Tom: He's an old police officer, an old Swiss policeman who is into detective fiction and clearly has gone off to go on some great big adventure to attempt to catch this world famous The Raven Master Theif, or not technically The Raven Master Theif, but the replacement as The Raven has actually just recently been killed by a world famous Interpol detective.
00:31:13.167 --> 00:31:15.607
Tom: And that is basically the hook at the beginning of the game.
00:31:18.427 --> 00:31:19.187
Phil: Wait, so what?
00:31:20.087 --> 00:31:22.707
Phil: There is a famous detective called The Raven, right?
00:31:22.847 --> 00:31:34.627
Tom: The famous detective is an Interpol detective called LeGrand, who killed The Raven at some stage during possibly suspicious circumstances.
00:31:34.647 --> 00:31:40.307
Tom: Then someone has committed a similar crime to The Raven wearing a similar disguise.
00:31:40.427 --> 00:31:42.947
Tom: And that is the beginning of the game.
00:31:43.107 --> 00:31:48.547
Phil: Okay, so now you are not the guy that killed him, you are just the guy who is trying to find this cat burglar dude.
00:31:48.567 --> 00:31:58.407
Tom: You are some bumbling clouso type, bumbling clouso, elderly policeman who has jetted off around Europe on some final great adventure.
00:31:58.987 --> 00:32:05.287
Tom: Much to the disappointment of his daughter, who is worried about his health.
00:32:05.307 --> 00:32:13.647
Phil: Elderly people solving crimes, you've got Miss Marple, you've got Agatha Christie and you've got Angela.
00:32:14.007 --> 00:32:17.447
Tom: I don't think Agatha Christie herself went around solving crimes.
00:32:19.947 --> 00:32:26.507
Phil: You don't know that because you had Angela Lansby character, Jessica Parker, in Murder She Wrote, right?
00:32:26.967 --> 00:32:32.087
Phil: So she was writing the books, but in real life, she was solving the mysteries.
00:32:32.307 --> 00:32:39.007
Phil: So kind of like Alan Wake or Stephen King, how in real life the stuff happens and then he just writes about it.
00:32:39.027 --> 00:32:41.407
Phil: Everyone's like, how did they come up with this amazing story?
00:32:41.627 --> 00:32:42.987
Phil: She's just writing about her life.
00:32:44.247 --> 00:32:47.687
Phil: Anyway, so you do have elderly people writing mystery stuff.
00:32:49.487 --> 00:32:53.267
Phil: So I saw some images of the game.
00:32:54.407 --> 00:32:55.347
Phil: It does look good.
00:32:55.367 --> 00:32:56.667
Phil: It has its own art style.
00:32:57.147 --> 00:32:59.127
Phil: It's not quite going for photorealism.
00:32:59.147 --> 00:33:00.347
Phil: It's kind of like Uncharted.
00:33:00.367 --> 00:33:03.787
Phil: It's going for somewhere in between, a little cartoony, a little caricature-ish.
00:33:05.147 --> 00:33:09.607
Phil: It reminded me of The Ship, that horrible game you made me play earlier this year.
00:33:09.907 --> 00:33:16.047
Tom: Well, I think The Ship was more set in the 40s or the 50s, whereas this is very much set in the 60s.
00:33:16.147 --> 00:33:28.627
Tom: And as you probably know from my brief comments of Alan Waite, when it comes to basically doing a pastiche of a time period, I get rather annoyed when there are glaring problems with it.
00:33:28.647 --> 00:33:37.087
Tom: And so far, it's doing the 60s very well, as it is buying very much into stuff like Inspect Clueso and all that sort of thing.
00:33:37.527 --> 00:34:14.507
Tom: Stuff like cat burglars and elderly people solving crimes and detective fiction all sit very well with a 60s sort of setting, as does the physical setting of the game, which at the beginning at least is the Orient Express, which is rather a very evocative place to set an adventure game due to The Last Express, of course, because if you are setting an adventure game on a train in the opening in a setting like the 60s, you're immediately going to be bringing to mind The Last Express, which is obviously one of the greatest adventure games of all time.
00:34:14.527 --> 00:34:25.907
Tom: So that's quite a ballsy setting to begin your game in, but many adventure games over the years have feature train settings due to the extreme influence of The Last Express.
00:34:27.227 --> 00:34:29.287
Phil: Well, also it makes for...
00:34:29.447 --> 00:34:32.367
Phil: I mean, it's obviously very easy to develop for.
00:34:32.387 --> 00:34:35.887
Phil: You don't get a much more linear setting than a train.
00:34:36.427 --> 00:34:55.307
Tom: But it's generally, as far as I can see, avoided, at least as an opening setting in a series, because of the fact that anyone playing the game is immediately going to think of The Last Express, which is going to result in probably unfairly high expectations when it comes to the game itself, right?
00:34:55.487 --> 00:34:58.327
Phil: Well, The Last Express did come out a very long time ago.
00:34:58.347 --> 00:34:59.287
Phil: So I think it's...
00:34:59.787 --> 00:35:04.807
Phil: And also, you know, trains are a classic setting for murder mysteries and the like.
00:35:04.827 --> 00:35:11.547
Phil: So I think that enough time has passed that people would not be drawing correlations between the two.
00:35:11.567 --> 00:35:21.547
Phil: I think they'd probably skip contrasting it against The Last Express and go straight to the more famous movie, you know, the Orient Express or the book.
00:35:21.607 --> 00:35:30.087
Tom: I would say that would be the case if it was not an adventure game, which is an extremely niche genre that is very much all about its history.
00:35:30.767 --> 00:35:32.367
Phil: Yep, you're right, you're right.
00:35:32.387 --> 00:35:37.927
Phil: One question I do have about the 60s setting before you go on is, did you play No One Lives Forever?
00:35:38.607 --> 00:35:43.207
Tom: I've played the demo and have been wanting to play the game since the demo.
00:35:43.867 --> 00:35:46.527
Phil: Yeah, I think I have the PS2 version.
00:35:46.547 --> 00:35:48.247
Phil: Yeah, I do have the PS2 version of it.
00:35:48.627 --> 00:35:53.087
Phil: And I imagine it would be a very similar type of setting.
00:35:53.107 --> 00:36:02.047
Tom: Well, I think No One Lives Forever was much more of a parody and much more psychedelic.
00:36:02.067 --> 00:36:08.247
Tom: This is more of a light-hearted, serious sort of tone rather than parody.
00:36:08.307 --> 00:36:16.187
Tom: And it's very much, as you can probably guess from the elderly protagonist staying away so far from psychedelica and hippies and that sort of stuff.
00:36:16.707 --> 00:36:24.387
Phil: That could be really interesting because so much of games that are set in the 60s just immediately go straight to parody.
00:36:24.387 --> 00:36:33.667
Phil: So if it's an actual serious setting other than the character who you described as a closer type of character, that would be really interesting.
00:36:33.687 --> 00:36:38.587
Tom: Well, it is of course still very light-hearted and amusing in tone, but it's certainly not.
00:36:39.267 --> 00:36:42.247
Tom: Parodying the era to any great degree.
00:36:42.647 --> 00:36:57.907
Tom: Now, I don't know if this is simply due to my rather questionable brain state at the moment, but this is certainly going from the Book of Unwritten Tales a drastically more adduced style of puzzle-solving.
00:36:57.927 --> 00:37:08.507
Tom: And I don't want to go into too many details as this is still not coming out until I think the 21st this month and the embargo is still a long way off.
00:37:08.527 --> 00:37:16.767
Tom: But basically, I'm going along in this train and someone's lost their purse and I come across another character.
00:37:17.667 --> 00:37:18.187
Tom: Sorry, what?
00:37:18.967 --> 00:37:19.507
Phil: Oh dear.
00:37:19.527 --> 00:37:20.087
Tom: That's right.
00:37:20.527 --> 00:37:21.667
Tom: What a catastrophe.
00:37:21.867 --> 00:37:22.467
Tom: Well, they are.
00:37:22.467 --> 00:37:23.287
Phil: Oh my god.
00:37:23.307 --> 00:37:24.727
Tom: Someone's lost their purse.
00:37:24.847 --> 00:37:25.987
Tom: They are a baroness.
00:37:26.147 --> 00:37:28.207
Tom: Oh, good lord.
00:37:28.227 --> 00:37:29.087
Phil: Who knows what was in the purse?
00:37:29.187 --> 00:37:31.407
Tom: They could have lost millions of francs.
00:37:32.127 --> 00:37:32.767
Phil: And cocaine.
00:37:34.767 --> 00:37:44.427
Tom: But so, someone's lost their purse, and I go along and talk to another character later on, and they say, well, why don't you talk to my son, who's great at finding lost stuff, right?
00:37:45.507 --> 00:37:51.127
Tom: So I'm thinking, okay, obviously I should go and talk to this person's son, who I've previously talked to.
00:37:51.267 --> 00:37:52.787
Tom: I know who this character is.
00:37:53.207 --> 00:38:02.347
Tom: I've fully explored, I haven't fully explored the train, so I continue going along the train, seeing where everything is, and I completely explore the train.
00:38:04.847 --> 00:38:07.027
Tom: I look, and he has completely disappeared.
00:38:07.827 --> 00:38:31.247
Tom: And the only way to put this, one area that I cannot get to, where he will possibly be, and I assume he is going to be in there, but the way it is paced and set up, this seems to be a sort of side sort of puzzle, it would actually solve before continuing with the main puzzles in the story.
00:38:31.567 --> 00:38:37.087
Tom: And one of the bullet points in the press release was that it had optional puzzles to solve.
00:38:37.387 --> 00:38:50.627
Tom: It seems a little bizarre that this character has presumably disappeared to the one inaccessible spot on the train that is accessed only through continuing in the story.
00:38:50.827 --> 00:38:52.007
Phil: So did you find the boy?
00:38:52.027 --> 00:39:05.747
Tom: I'm yet to find the boy, as at that stage I basically gave up for the minute, because my brain was about to melt, which once again needs to be qualified due to my lack of ability to think at the moment.
00:39:05.867 --> 00:39:07.467
Tom: So it could just be me.
00:39:07.927 --> 00:39:23.347
Tom: The other interesting thing about it is, and this has got nothing to do with my present state of mind, is the highlighting system of clickable items, which has become a standard in adventure games for people who don't want to pixel hunt, right?
00:39:23.367 --> 00:39:27.427
Tom: Where you basically press a button and everything in the scene becomes highlighted.
00:39:28.607 --> 00:39:30.187
Tom: Have you played any games that do this?
00:39:31.087 --> 00:39:42.047
Phil: No, I mean, the closest I would have come to that would have been like in the Back to the Future series, but you basically still have to move the mouse around, and if it's something that's clickable, you know, a halo or an aura will come up around it.
00:39:42.147 --> 00:39:44.027
Tom: No, no, no, no.
00:39:44.027 --> 00:39:50.127
Tom: What this does is you press a button and all the auras become visible without having to highlight them.
00:39:50.727 --> 00:39:51.327
Phil: That's crap.
00:39:51.347 --> 00:39:59.567
Tom: I would say it's actually quite useful because if you're playing a game with extreme pixel hunting, it can be coming handy.
00:40:00.347 --> 00:40:02.947
Tom: If it's optional, I think it is a good feature to have.
00:40:03.627 --> 00:40:04.387
Tom: You don't think it is?
00:40:04.627 --> 00:40:05.547
Phil: If it's optional?
00:40:05.567 --> 00:40:10.487
Phil: As long as it's optional, because then if you don't like doing that, then you don't need to press the button.
00:40:10.827 --> 00:40:15.687
Tom: If everything already had an aura around it, that would be utterly just incredibly stupid.
00:40:16.027 --> 00:40:20.807
Phil: Because a lot of these games, you just feel like the game's playing you, you know?
00:40:24.227 --> 00:40:25.987
Phil: You just wouldn't feel like you're doing anything.
00:40:26.347 --> 00:40:27.447
Phil: But as long as it's an option.
00:40:27.867 --> 00:40:31.187
Tom: And it is there for people who might want to just enjoy the story.
00:40:31.207 --> 00:40:33.707
Tom: It's not there for people who want to play the game.
00:40:34.027 --> 00:40:41.127
Tom: So you would expect such a feature to be basically very obviously highlight everything in the environment, right?
00:40:42.207 --> 00:40:42.467
Phil: Yep.
00:40:42.887 --> 00:40:43.807
Tom: Not so here.
00:40:43.827 --> 00:40:58.067
Tom: What happens is you press the button and a somewhat hard to see magnifying glass flashes on the screen for maybe about one second before moving to the next highlightable object, at which point it then disappears.
00:40:58.707 --> 00:41:03.447
Tom: And each time you highlight it, it costs you adventure points.
00:41:03.487 --> 00:41:06.467
Tom: I'm not sure what adventure points do.
00:41:06.527 --> 00:41:11.947
Tom: I presume they have something to do with the extras that you can unlock such as concept art.
00:41:12.947 --> 00:41:28.707
Tom: But it seems to be a rather backwards way to do it because it's not as if anyone that is going to be wanting to play this as a normal puzzle solving game or in any sort of hardcore way that might be interested in getting a high score is going to be using it anyway.
00:41:28.707 --> 00:41:42.767
Tom: So it does seem like that's just simply punishing the people that would be interested in such a feature, which is people that just want to play it for the story or have no interest in playing it as a puzzle solving exercise.
00:41:43.187 --> 00:41:50.667
Phil: You can't really say too much about it because the embargo doesn't last until later in a month, which will be able to talk about the game much more expansively.
00:41:50.687 --> 00:41:54.327
Phil: So you can't really get into opinions either in terms of good or not.
00:41:54.367 --> 00:41:56.367
Tom: I think I can easily.
00:41:56.387 --> 00:42:00.587
Tom: The other thing is I have only played it very briefly about an hour or so.
00:42:00.907 --> 00:42:12.367
Tom: But apart from the obtuseness, I think the protagonist is a very intriguing character due to the elderly nature of the character.
00:42:12.387 --> 00:42:16.247
Tom: That alone makes it a very original protagonist for a game.
00:42:16.267 --> 00:42:19.367
Tom: And it ties very much into the setting of the game.
00:42:19.387 --> 00:42:23.807
Tom: So I'm very intrigued as to where the story is going to go.
00:42:24.967 --> 00:42:29.947
Tom: And it does come from a very high pedigree of adventure gaming ilk.
00:42:30.487 --> 00:42:36.767
Tom: As the Book of Unwritten Tales was one of the most well-received mainstream adventure titles.
00:42:36.787 --> 00:42:43.867
Tom: Probably the biggest adventure game title before The Walking Dead came out in this generation easily.
00:42:44.247 --> 00:42:48.007
Tom: So I have high expectations as to where this will be going.
00:42:48.027 --> 00:42:51.647
Tom: And so far it is an intriguing, if somewhat obtuse, opening.
00:42:51.667 --> 00:42:57.987
Tom: Which is, for the amount I've played, certainly enough to get me interested in where it's going.
00:42:58.027 --> 00:43:01.027
Phil: It looks nice too visually, so that doesn't hurt.
00:43:01.227 --> 00:43:06.247
Tom: The only thing about the visuals is the animation is at times really rather poor.
00:43:06.807 --> 00:43:13.767
Phil: You know, where click and point adventure games might aid themselves too, would be with more realistic facial animation.
00:43:14.687 --> 00:43:17.427
Phil: So you could pick up on the subtleties, as in, you know, LA.
00:43:17.427 --> 00:43:17.887
Phil: Noire.
00:43:17.947 --> 00:43:18.967
Tom: Yep, absolutely.
00:43:19.387 --> 00:43:25.867
Tom: Not just facial animation, but also stuff like cinematic shot selection and editing.
00:43:26.147 --> 00:43:27.107
Phil: Like in The Walking Dead.
00:43:27.127 --> 00:43:32.167
Tom: Yep, which this is doing not to the same degree of success as The Walking Dead.
00:43:32.187 --> 00:44:12.547
Tom: It's much more primitive than that, but it is doing a more cinematic style of presentation during the dialogue and deserves kudos for doing that, even if it doesn't do it to the same degree of The Walking Dead, which I think actually, just to, as we've said all we can, basically about The Raven for the reason that I played it, just to move on to The Walking Dead, I think the cinematic presentation was actually a blessing and a curse, because it was framed nicely, but I think the editing was very much comic editing that they had carried over from the Sam and Max games and their other titles, and I don't think it really fitted the tone.
00:44:12.707 --> 00:44:28.727
Tom: And the worst thing about it was, though, it really played up the absolutely awful facial expression that they had in the game, which 100% basically extracted as ported animations from their previous titles, which are all very comical in tone.
00:44:29.547 --> 00:44:34.967
Phil: Well, I mean, perhaps the comic book influence could have come from, oh, I don't know, The Walking Dead comic book.
00:44:34.987 --> 00:44:37.007
Tom: No, no, no, no, comical as in humor.
00:44:37.327 --> 00:44:40.547
Phil: No, no, but back to what you were saying about the framing of it.
00:44:41.507 --> 00:44:47.507
Phil: I mean, the frame selection, the shot selection, I had prior given them a lot of credit for that, because here they are working on a game for about a month.
00:44:47.547 --> 00:44:51.227
Phil: I know what you're saying, but they're working on a game for like a month and a half to two months at most.
00:44:51.627 --> 00:45:00.227
Phil: And so for them to come back with a directorial style that is unmatched in any other video game to date, including The Last of Us, I might say, which has tremendous acting.
00:45:00.707 --> 00:45:15.047
Phil: But in like Bioshock, not in Bioshock, BioWare in their Mass Effect games has this deplorable directing, like they haven't even taken a community college course in directors, which I have incidentally.
00:45:15.067 --> 00:45:16.827
Tom: Yeah, so you know what you're talking about.
00:45:17.247 --> 00:45:17.907
Phil: I do know.
00:45:17.927 --> 00:45:20.147
Tom: Community college education.
00:45:20.647 --> 00:45:25.367
Phil: Where basically you have a camera pointed at whoever's talking and they just cut backwards and forwards.
00:45:25.387 --> 00:45:28.227
Phil: And The Walking Dead had greater direction, right?
00:45:28.567 --> 00:45:38.587
Phil: So someone else might be talking, but they'll pause on the character who's not talking so they can see the reaction, go figure, low angle, high angle, whatever.
00:45:38.607 --> 00:45:42.847
Phil: And it wasn't until you played the game that the camera actually became broken.
00:45:43.547 --> 00:45:45.667
Phil: But in the cut scenes, it was great.
00:45:45.687 --> 00:45:46.807
Phil: Now, I know what you're talking about.
00:45:46.827 --> 00:45:52.287
Phil: You're talking about the actual shape of the face, the expression of the eyes.
00:45:52.287 --> 00:45:57.227
Phil: And the main character in The Walking Dead was much like which guy in Salmon Max?
00:45:57.667 --> 00:46:06.527
Phil: Where he just basically like his surprise animation was to open his mouth wide and his eyes would basically turn anime for a few seconds.
00:46:07.307 --> 00:46:18.447
Phil: Yeah, so that's where the where if you had the shot selection of The Walking Dead and the acting of The Last of Us, I don't think the shot selection is enough because I've got no problem with the framing.
00:46:19.047 --> 00:46:35.467
Tom: I think the framing was excellent in The Walking Dead, but I do think the editing was still once again straight out of their previous games, which were not comic as in comic book style of flow to the action, but were comical as in they were meant to be humorous.
00:46:35.487 --> 00:46:42.767
Tom: And I think the editing was exactly the same as in those games, but the framing was excellent and did definitely capture.
00:46:43.127 --> 00:46:53.047
Tom: I haven't read the comic books, but they definitely captured an excellent comic book feel to the framing, but I think the editing was really completely opposite to their intentions.
00:46:54.387 --> 00:47:17.827
Phil: I mean, Walking Dead is a game that we still have yet to discuss on this podcast, but I think that in the wake of The Last of Us, covering much of the same emotional material in terms of great loss and the same kinds of characters, a middle-aged male character with a young child.
00:47:18.687 --> 00:47:22.787
Phil: Obviously, Clementine is significantly younger than Ellie, who's 14.
00:47:23.007 --> 00:47:26.067
Tom: Also, Lee, I would say, is significantly younger than Joel.
00:47:27.107 --> 00:47:27.447
Phil: Yes.
00:47:27.467 --> 00:47:28.487
Tom: He's not middle-aged.
00:47:29.047 --> 00:47:31.647
Phil: And he hasn't been through the kinds of things that Joel has been through.
00:47:32.207 --> 00:47:42.427
Phil: But I think, you know, so it's easy now to look back and go, oh, we were all fools, not we, but we were all fools for giving a Game of the Year last year, which I didn't.
00:47:42.467 --> 00:47:47.747
Phil: It wasn't even in my consideration, namely because I didn't play it until this year.
00:47:47.767 --> 00:48:00.367
Phil: But it is easy to bash on them in retrospect, but you do have to remember that these guys were making these games in a two-month turnaround time, which is pretty spectacular.
00:48:00.387 --> 00:48:00.787
Phil: And you know what?
00:48:00.787 --> 00:48:04.207
Phil: I think that actually would benefit a lot of game development.
00:48:04.987 --> 00:48:17.907
Phil: They had a great tools engine in place, but were able to turn things around more quickly, because sometimes that run-and-gun mode to doing any sort of creative work is where you get your best stuff.
00:48:18.027 --> 00:48:20.007
Tom: And it means you can't over-edit as well.
00:48:20.687 --> 00:48:22.147
Phil: Yeah, or cut.
00:48:22.167 --> 00:48:23.627
Phil: Yeah, edit, exactly.
00:48:24.227 --> 00:48:29.147
Phil: Cut things down too short or overly plan things or have things lined up.
00:48:29.747 --> 00:48:41.487
Phil: Amy Henning, I was listening to an interview with her and Ken Levine last night, and she was watching a movie and she was saying that, you know, there's a scene where a car parks up, drives up and parks in front of a building.
00:48:42.267 --> 00:48:57.787
Phil: And in order for that film production company to do that one shot, you know, they had to get a license from the city, they had to rent the certain car, they had to pay the property, first scout the location, pay the people that they wanted to put in that location.
00:48:58.407 --> 00:49:03.427
Phil: Because of the licensing from the city, you'd have to schedule it for a certain time and date.
00:49:03.927 --> 00:49:08.127
Phil: You'd have to have, because of the unions, the team's just there to get the lighting in place.
00:49:09.227 --> 00:49:17.047
Phil: Catering would have to be provided because of, you know, union rules for SAG and on and on and on.
00:49:17.047 --> 00:49:22.427
Phil: Just to do this one shot of a car pulling up in front of a house for three seconds, right?
00:49:23.167 --> 00:49:28.347
Phil: And she was talking about how liberating it is when you're developing a game that you don't have any of that.
00:49:28.387 --> 00:49:32.567
Phil: You don't have to have all of this pre-thought and planning in place.
00:49:32.567 --> 00:49:37.647
Phil: You can just basically design stuff off the cuff, throw stuff away and all the rest of it.
00:49:38.187 --> 00:49:44.227
Phil: And I think that looseness is a tremendous benefit that game development has over motion pictures.
00:49:45.767 --> 00:50:04.547
Phil: But there is still this, you know, games now have become so expensive and require so many people to make that sometimes games do suffer from over planning and over production, which is why people are drawn to these smaller games from smaller teams these days, because that seems to be more creative.
00:50:04.567 --> 00:50:06.527
Phil: There's a lot more freeform development going on.
00:50:07.067 --> 00:50:09.547
Phil: So I guess that basically closes out my point.
00:50:09.567 --> 00:50:13.387
Phil: Does that close out your coverage of The Raven, Legacy of the Master Theif?
00:50:13.407 --> 00:50:20.367
Tom: It does indeed, and I'm just going to put this out here now and just force you to actually do this on the next podcast.
00:50:20.387 --> 00:50:27.567
Tom: One of our major features in our big show, episode 15 is going to be a discussion, a spoilerific discussion on The Walking Dead.
00:50:28.387 --> 00:50:29.127
Phil: Oh, why not?
00:50:29.267 --> 00:50:31.867
Tom: And now that it's live on air, we have to do it.
00:50:32.007 --> 00:50:38.687
Phil: Yeah, and because we have to do it anyway before I forget that I've played it or any of the aspects of it.
00:50:38.707 --> 00:50:39.307
Phil: So let's do it.
00:50:39.427 --> 00:50:42.087
Phil: We'll do a Walking Dead spoiler show next week.
00:50:42.287 --> 00:50:43.027
Tom: It's set in stone.
00:50:43.027 --> 00:50:44.887
Tom: Now, I believe you finished Killzone 3.
00:50:45.387 --> 00:50:49.127
Phil: That's right, and this is a game that also suffers from overdevelopment, right?
00:50:49.147 --> 00:50:49.287
Tom: Yep.
00:50:49.547 --> 00:50:55.587
Phil: I finished Killzone 3, and my biggest problem with it is that this is a very generic game.
00:50:55.847 --> 00:51:00.807
Phil: At the end of the day, at the end of the game, this could have been anything.
00:51:00.827 --> 00:51:02.527
Phil: It didn't have to be a Killzone game.
00:51:03.507 --> 00:51:06.467
Phil: And the sad thing about it is that there were levels...
00:51:06.847 --> 00:51:08.767
Phil: It did get better as the game went on.
00:51:09.727 --> 00:51:19.147
Phil: There were levels toward the end of the game that were enjoyable, but again, as I said last week, they were in the old Killzone style.
00:51:20.387 --> 00:51:36.907
Phil: And it was so sad to have to be shipped back to these non-Killzone levels, like where you're flying around in jet packs and jet fighter planes and space ships and all the rest of it, where you just really wanted to play old Killzone.
00:51:37.307 --> 00:51:41.407
Phil: And then I'm flying around in outer space shooting up space stations, you know.
00:51:43.647 --> 00:51:45.927
Phil: It wasn't enjoyable for me.
00:51:46.147 --> 00:51:47.287
Phil: And at least it was quick.
00:51:48.307 --> 00:51:53.267
Phil: But then they'd throw you back into these old levels that remind you of what greatness the game does have.
00:51:53.967 --> 00:51:57.207
Phil: And I just thought it was a game that was spread too thin.
00:51:57.487 --> 00:52:03.627
Phil: So I looked up the original release date to see if this was a game that was rushed to make like Christmas, you know, like make November.
00:52:04.027 --> 00:52:05.467
Phil: And it was released in February.
00:52:05.547 --> 00:52:14.827
Phil: So it really had no reason exterially, commercially to be rushed, unless Sony just basically said to them, look guys, finish it up, get it out.
00:52:15.287 --> 00:52:24.287
Tom: I don't think I don't think there's any evidence that it was rushed for what I can remember from the release and the press leading up to the release.
00:52:25.167 --> 00:52:26.407
Phil: No, yeah, you're right.
00:52:26.427 --> 00:52:31.167
Phil: It wasn't like they had, you know, abruptly announced a release date.
00:52:31.487 --> 00:52:36.487
Phil: And also Sony plays great respect with Gorilla and all of its top tier developers.
00:52:36.507 --> 00:52:43.727
Phil: They don't really pressure them to get stuff done, as we can see from Team Eco and Gran Turismo, right?
00:52:46.247 --> 00:52:46.527
Phil: Yeah.
00:52:46.547 --> 00:52:48.047
Phil: So, yeah, that's probably not the case either.
00:52:48.887 --> 00:52:51.527
Phil: But all in all, it just made me want to play Killzone 2 again.
00:52:51.547 --> 00:52:59.747
Phil: And it left me, it was supremely annoying because it seemed to have an endless array of endings.
00:53:01.187 --> 00:53:05.067
Phil: Just like, okay, this is obviously the big ending, a space battle.
00:53:05.087 --> 00:53:06.827
Phil: We're in space blowing up stuff.
00:53:08.447 --> 00:53:17.167
Phil: The ending was good where you, spoilers, if you, spoilers, when we dropped the nuclear bomb on the planet.
00:53:17.247 --> 00:53:20.587
Tom: That final sequence is just brilliantly over the top.
00:53:21.347 --> 00:53:22.247
Phil: Yeah, it's great.
00:53:22.267 --> 00:53:25.207
Phil: And, you know, again, stolen from Call of Duty, that's fine.
00:53:25.447 --> 00:53:26.267
Phil: Drop a nuke on it.
00:53:26.567 --> 00:53:34.307
Phil: But I did like the character, I did like the acting at the end where they basically is like, you know, wow, we just dropped a nuclear bomb on the planet.
00:53:34.327 --> 00:53:34.527
Tom: Yeah.
00:53:34.667 --> 00:53:37.667
Phil: And we aren't getting any traffic from the planet.
00:53:38.807 --> 00:53:41.907
Phil: Seems like we wiped out all life on the planet.
00:53:42.067 --> 00:53:43.347
Tom: That's what the ISA do.
00:53:44.007 --> 00:53:48.087
Phil: And then the female character said something like, well, how many people did we just kill?
00:53:48.107 --> 00:53:48.307
Tom: Yeah.
00:53:49.007 --> 00:53:49.447
Phil: Right.
00:53:49.467 --> 00:53:51.387
Phil: And then that's an unanswered question.
00:53:52.167 --> 00:53:53.247
Phil: I thought that was nice.
00:53:53.507 --> 00:53:54.647
Phil: I thought that was thoughtful.
00:53:54.807 --> 00:53:58.927
Phil: And I would love to see what Guerrilla Games would do with the PC.
00:53:59.247 --> 00:54:03.347
Phil: I would love to see these guys not on a console platform.
00:54:03.427 --> 00:54:12.927
Phil: I would love to see them basically go the same route as the Metro guys, you know, and make a PC game a no apologies shooter.
00:54:13.587 --> 00:54:29.607
Phil: And I think a lot of the direction that they get for this army of two stuff and the jet packs and the mechs and the flying around in spaceships and stuff probably comes from Sony of America and focus groups and all the rest of it.
00:54:31.167 --> 00:54:34.787
Phil: And I'd like to see them make an unapologetic guerrilla game shooter.
00:54:34.787 --> 00:54:41.207
Phil: And hopefully at some point, the Killzone franchise will die and then they'll be allowed to go off and do what they want to do.
00:54:43.967 --> 00:54:47.707
Phil: So, yeah, so all in all, I found it to be pretty disappointing.
00:54:47.707 --> 00:54:50.167
Tom: Yep, I don't disagree with any of that.
00:54:50.187 --> 00:54:52.807
Tom: Though I believe you read my review, so perhaps I did.
00:54:52.827 --> 00:54:56.707
Phil: Oh, your review was actually more entertaining than the game.
00:54:57.827 --> 00:55:02.267
Phil: I reread it today, and you can find it at gameunder.net.
00:55:02.287 --> 00:55:02.467
Tom: Yep.
00:55:03.067 --> 00:55:04.767
Phil: Just use our search tool, it's excellent.
00:55:04.787 --> 00:55:07.607
Phil: Just put in Killzone 3 and it'll come up immediately.
00:55:09.227 --> 00:55:10.407
Phil: I thought your review was great.
00:55:10.427 --> 00:55:12.087
Phil: You thought it was too beard-centric.
00:55:12.807 --> 00:55:14.387
Phil: I thought it was not beard-centric enough.
00:55:14.847 --> 00:55:17.107
Tom: I cannot believe that I thought it was too beard-centric.
00:55:17.127 --> 00:55:18.507
Tom: Do you have the quote where I said that?
00:55:19.687 --> 00:55:23.187
Phil: No, just last week you said you were talking to me about the review.
00:55:26.747 --> 00:55:29.107
Tom: No, no, no, I said it was very beard-centric.
00:55:29.627 --> 00:55:33.967
Phil: Yeah, your review, no, I thought it wasn't beard-centric enough.
00:55:34.307 --> 00:55:40.927
Phil: It's certainly something that was interesting to talk about because like you said with The Elderly, there's not a lot of beards in games anymore.
00:55:41.127 --> 00:55:45.827
Tom: I think they're coming in now after beards are coming into fashion at the moment.
00:55:46.267 --> 00:55:47.187
Phil: Well, they're growing in.
00:55:47.207 --> 00:55:49.027
Phil: I mean, the generation is six years old.
00:55:50.027 --> 00:55:53.367
Phil: It would only make sense that we're starting to see the long beards come out.
00:55:54.907 --> 00:55:56.427
Phil: No, it's an excellent review.
00:55:56.447 --> 00:56:00.627
Phil: I'd encourage everyone to go to gameunder.net to search for Killzone 3 and you'll find it.
00:56:00.647 --> 00:56:02.127
Phil: Or just Killzone, it'll come up.
00:56:04.067 --> 00:56:07.527
Phil: And yeah, not much more to really say about it.
00:56:08.347 --> 00:56:13.627
Phil: I stopped reading when I got to the multiplayer section because I didn't play the multiplayer aspect of the game.
00:56:13.947 --> 00:56:15.827
Phil: Is multiplayer in Killzone 3?
00:56:16.727 --> 00:56:19.947
Phil: You said it's worse than in Killzone 2, right?
00:56:19.967 --> 00:56:26.167
Tom: Before we get to that, because that is a part of what I'm about to say, my views on it were pretty close to yours, right, if I remember correctly?
00:56:28.067 --> 00:56:32.427
Tom: And so I was basically extremely disappointed by how generic it was, right?
00:56:33.027 --> 00:56:33.987
Phil: Yes.
00:56:34.007 --> 00:56:42.987
Phil: I was actually, when I was reading it, I had read it prior to playing the game several months ago when the review first came out, and so I had basically forgotten everything about it.
00:56:43.827 --> 00:56:51.227
Phil: So I was actually shocked to see that you agreed, or I agreed with you, or however you want to say it, on so many aspects of the game.
00:56:53.527 --> 00:56:55.387
Phil: It's just a lost opportunity.
00:56:55.407 --> 00:56:56.027
Phil: But you know what?
00:56:56.047 --> 00:56:59.527
Phil: I mean, Killzone 3, it probably didn't hurt in sales, right?
00:56:59.547 --> 00:57:00.147
Phil: It probably-
00:57:00.167 --> 00:57:01.367
Tom: Sold as much as two, I believe.
00:57:01.387 --> 00:57:02.927
Tom: They both sold around two million.
00:57:03.947 --> 00:57:04.607
Phil: Yeah.
00:57:04.707 --> 00:57:13.667
Phil: And our voices are pretty distinctly outnumbered by the majority in terms of how this game was received.
00:57:13.687 --> 00:57:28.147
Tom: Well, just for that in a second, just on the previous point you're making, so basically I was as disappointed as you are with it, and my opinion of the Killzone 2 campaign is probably a lot longer than yours, yet I had the same level of disappointment, right?
00:57:29.487 --> 00:57:30.567
Phil: I guess so.
00:57:30.587 --> 00:57:33.367
Phil: I mean, I was absolutely impressed with Killzone 2.
00:57:34.067 --> 00:57:37.747
Phil: I was really in love with Killzone 2, so if you were not, then-
00:57:38.227 --> 00:57:38.567
Phil: Yep.
00:57:38.587 --> 00:57:47.187
Tom: So now, the multiplayer of Killzone 2, I consider to be among the greatest ever competitive multiplayer games ever.
00:57:47.627 --> 00:58:01.027
Tom: And the amount of generification, if that is a word, and if it is and it should be, of a single player is probably dialed up even higher in the multiplayer.
00:58:01.427 --> 00:58:07.767
Tom: So imagine if I could have that degree of disappointment and probably a seething level of outrage-
00:58:08.667 --> 00:58:12.607
Tom: From the King of Player campaign, you can imagine my thoughts on the multiplayer.
00:58:13.227 --> 00:58:22.187
Phil: Yeah, that would blow because for you, you heavily invest in a game for its multiplayer and for it to come up short.
00:58:22.207 --> 00:58:25.927
Phil: I know with Uncharted 2, I think Uncharted 2 has tremendous co-op.
00:58:26.187 --> 00:58:29.107
Phil: We really have to play sooner rather than later.
00:58:29.567 --> 00:58:32.927
Phil: And I was kind of disappointed with the co-op in Uncharted 3.
00:58:33.567 --> 00:58:35.367
Phil: To the same extent, I don't play a lot of-
00:58:35.787 --> 00:58:42.487
Phil: Basically, the games that I play online, multiplayer, you could count on your ears, right?
00:58:42.807 --> 00:58:47.307
Phil: It's basically Halo 2 and Uncharted 2, right?
00:58:49.027 --> 00:58:51.207
Phil: And I played both of those exhaustively.
00:58:52.307 --> 00:58:55.967
Phil: So for me, when it came to Uncharted 3, I was disappointed.
00:58:57.747 --> 00:59:00.187
Phil: But yeah, so we should definitely do that.
00:59:00.327 --> 00:59:14.127
Tom: Now as to your other point about the general critical reception, as I said on the previous podcast, and I still do stand by this statement, I think that it does actually do what it does extremely well.
00:59:14.167 --> 00:59:21.827
Tom: And on normal, from what I played of hard, this wouldn't apply because on normal, it was extremely easy even on hard.
00:59:21.847 --> 00:59:24.587
Tom: So on normal, it would be incredibly boring.
00:59:24.887 --> 00:59:49.507
Tom: But on hard, my experience of the game was that it did actually do Call of Duty style gameplay, as well as Call of Duty does it all, and in some areas better, because it had a wider range of high points and low points, whereas Call of Duty is entirely high point after high point, right?
00:59:50.227 --> 00:59:51.367
Phil: Ridiculously so.
00:59:51.387 --> 00:59:58.787
Tom: To the point where it affects it negatively, because the high points have less impact.
00:59:59.467 --> 01:00:02.627
Phil: It's basically a roller coaster theme park with no lines.
01:00:02.927 --> 01:00:17.467
Phil: You just go from one roller coaster to the next with no time to breathe, no time to reflect on the last ride, and in fact, it diminishes each roller coaster ride as you go, because you're like, you know, in Southern California, we have Magic Mountain.
01:00:17.487 --> 01:00:20.807
Phil: I know Six Flags have roller coaster parks all over the United States.
01:00:21.347 --> 01:00:27.767
Phil: But basically, the first roller coaster you get on in the day, you're just like, amazing, that was amazing.
01:00:27.787 --> 01:00:29.527
Phil: I just want to get right back on it again.
01:00:30.547 --> 01:00:36.247
Phil: By around 2 o'clock, you're just like, what?
01:00:36.587 --> 01:00:43.687
Phil: You could be getting on roller coasters that pound you into a wall of nerve, and you're just like, yeah, that was all right.
01:00:44.227 --> 01:00:47.947
Phil: And you're like, but wait, let's go back on that roller coaster ride we had earlier.
01:00:47.967 --> 01:00:49.047
Phil: And you're like, well, which one?
01:00:51.647 --> 01:00:59.067
Phil: So yeah, it's an over saturation, an over, you know, it's just too indulgent, too abundant.
01:00:59.087 --> 01:00:59.687
Tom: Yeah.
01:01:00.387 --> 01:01:16.047
Tom: But I do think once, going back to it now recently, as I played a bit before your impressions, and getting over the extreme disappointment, I do actually think that it was extremely well designed first person shooter in many aspects.
01:01:16.067 --> 01:01:21.107
Tom: And certainly the best copy of Call of Duty that I can think of.
01:01:21.127 --> 01:01:28.527
Tom: And I think one of the reasons for that is the great achievement of Call of Duty is not the fact that it hits high points constantly.
01:01:28.547 --> 01:01:37.447
Tom: The great achievement of Call of Duty is the way that they streamline the gameplay and make it so incredibly accessible.
01:01:37.467 --> 01:01:46.187
Tom: And that the game almost plays itself, but does so in a certain way where it's still somewhat entertaining to a degree.
01:01:48.187 --> 01:02:12.867
Tom: Killzone 3 is the only game that I can think of that copied Call of Duty and understood that, whereas most games, the copy Call of Duty, they see all the explosions everywhere and they copy that, but they forget that the reason that that doesn't become too much of an issue or over saturation is because of the way that they've made the gameplay so streamlined and accessible.
01:02:13.527 --> 01:02:19.847
Phil: It was an artful and studied copy, and you wouldn't expect anything less from guerrilla games, right?
01:02:20.167 --> 01:02:28.947
Phil: And as you said, so many other people just lift the artifice of the game, but not the actual gameplay that is so special, and that is where Killzone 3 succeeded.
01:02:29.587 --> 01:02:36.407
Phil: When you were playing as a mech, that was disappointing because basically it was just a different camera angle, it was you going at a different speed.
01:02:37.247 --> 01:02:41.187
Phil: But when you were in a jet pack, that was a legitimate experience.
01:02:41.207 --> 01:02:43.447
Phil: It was quite different from the regular gameplay.
01:02:44.087 --> 01:02:49.987
Phil: When you were in a spaceship, it wasn't as if you were walking around in space at a very high rate of speed with lesser gravity.
01:02:50.667 --> 01:02:52.927
Phil: You really actually did feel like you were flying something.
01:02:53.767 --> 01:02:55.067
Phil: So for that I give them kudos.
01:02:55.087 --> 01:03:09.087
Phil: It's just that I don't like to see brands that have their own legitimate source of inspiration and artistic expression having to copy someone else.
01:03:10.767 --> 01:03:13.187
Phil: Converse All-Stars are great shoes.
01:03:13.407 --> 01:03:20.427
Phil: I would hate them to have to start making Nike rip-offs because those ones sell better.
01:03:20.567 --> 01:03:22.447
Phil: No, you have your own original voice.
01:03:24.047 --> 01:03:27.527
Phil: And they should be true to that voice.
01:03:27.547 --> 01:03:29.087
Tom: And I could not agree with you more.
01:03:30.167 --> 01:03:35.807
Tom: The final thing though, the final point is once again, that line at the end is so brilliant.
01:03:35.887 --> 01:03:41.767
Tom: And it is yet more evidence for my theory, which is surely by now the case.
01:03:41.787 --> 01:03:43.507
Tom: And even you can agree with it, right?
01:03:44.647 --> 01:03:46.987
Tom: My guerrilla game Paul Verhoeven theory.
01:03:48.167 --> 01:03:48.967
Phil: Very much so.
01:03:49.407 --> 01:03:50.987
Phil: And which episode would we have to go back?
01:03:51.007 --> 01:03:53.507
Phil: That's like four episodes ago where we discussed that at length.
01:03:53.527 --> 01:03:56.547
Tom: Yeah, where we just randomly end up discussing that for 40 minutes.
01:03:56.747 --> 01:03:58.267
Tom: Four hours because it kills one minute.
01:03:59.747 --> 01:04:00.707
Phil: That was a great show.
01:04:02.647 --> 01:04:02.867
Tom: Yeah.
01:04:02.887 --> 01:04:13.547
Phil: Hey, speaking of first person shooters, before we go into some of the news here, I played Halo CE, the HD remake, Halo Combat Evolved.
01:04:13.567 --> 01:04:13.707
Tom: Yep.
01:04:14.707 --> 01:04:16.547
Phil: I played it on the 360 last night.
01:04:16.727 --> 01:04:20.487
Phil: And this is really cool, right?
01:04:20.507 --> 01:04:22.427
Phil: Basically, you're playing the game in HD.
01:04:22.447 --> 01:04:22.687
Tom: Yep.
01:04:23.267 --> 01:04:27.287
Phil: You can press select at any time and it gives you the old graphics.
01:04:28.107 --> 01:04:28.727
Tom: Still in HD?
01:04:30.987 --> 01:04:32.407
Phil: In HD, but...
01:04:32.667 --> 01:04:34.127
Tom: But obviously everything is low res.
01:04:34.687 --> 01:04:35.487
Phil: Yeah, exactly.
01:04:35.507 --> 01:04:36.707
Phil: Yeah, it's the same...
01:04:36.947 --> 01:04:42.947
Phil: So if you're looking at a boulder in the original, there's no textures or anything on it.
01:04:42.967 --> 01:04:44.847
Phil: It's just the shape of a boulder, right?
01:04:45.087 --> 01:04:46.407
Phil: Unless you're up close to it.
01:04:47.027 --> 01:04:50.307
Phil: Whereas in this game, it actually adds the textures and all the rest of it.
01:04:51.507 --> 01:04:52.447
Phil: It's still a great game.
01:04:53.327 --> 01:04:54.927
Phil: That's pretty much all that needs to be said about it.
01:04:54.947 --> 01:05:03.227
Phil: I mean, if you don't have an operating Xbox anymore and you do have an Xbox 360, it's a great way to play the original Halo Combat Evolved.
01:05:03.247 --> 01:05:05.407
Phil: Still the best Halo game that they've made.
01:05:05.427 --> 01:05:09.187
Phil: Yeah, it's still the best game that they made.
01:05:09.787 --> 01:05:11.767
Phil: Halo 4 comes very close to it.
01:05:13.167 --> 01:05:22.267
Phil: But I just thought it was great that they added that, because as I'm playing it, I'm going, okay, as soon as it starts, it looks like crap, right?
01:05:22.827 --> 01:05:26.267
Phil: It looks like a low-end PC game today.
01:05:27.107 --> 01:05:29.607
Phil: That's what the new version looks like.
01:05:29.627 --> 01:05:31.647
Tom: Do you mean a game on low settings?
01:05:32.507 --> 01:05:33.747
Phil: Yes, yeah.
01:05:33.767 --> 01:05:37.247
Tom: I'm guessing it actually looks worse than that, because this is not a joke.
01:05:37.267 --> 01:05:46.147
Tom: A lot of PC games on low settings, at least not necessarily all low, but a lot of the settings on low actually look quite similar to the console version.
01:05:47.087 --> 01:05:47.987
Phil: Right, right.
01:05:48.467 --> 01:05:49.427
Phil: Yes, yes.
01:05:50.307 --> 01:05:53.687
Phil: This actually looks like a low-spec version of it, though.
01:05:53.747 --> 01:06:08.687
Phil: So basically, I was like, okay, they took a game from the year 2000 that looked better than games on a high-spec PC, and they made it look as good as a mid-range spec PC in 2013.
01:06:08.987 --> 01:06:10.947
Phil: And guess which one looks better, right?
01:06:11.267 --> 01:06:13.687
Tom: Well, isn't that a problem with Bungie?
01:06:13.847 --> 01:06:19.947
Tom: They've been one of the developers, as far as I can remember, that really struggled with adapting to HD.
01:06:20.247 --> 01:06:28.507
Tom: I mean, there were huge complaints about the look of Halo 3, and the fact that it wasn't even at a proper HD resolution when it was released.
01:06:29.147 --> 01:06:38.647
Phil: Yeah, well, this version, of course, was made by 343 Industries, but the original was made by Bungie, and that's included in its entirety.
01:06:39.147 --> 01:06:48.947
Phil: And of course, Bungie's games have always looked god awful when it comes to facial animations and cutscenes, and that is no different in this 343 version as well.
01:06:49.127 --> 01:06:51.207
Phil: They look ridiculous.
01:06:52.727 --> 01:07:01.907
Phil: But fortunately, the gameplay is intact, and I found myself enjoying the HD version just as much as the low res version.
01:07:01.927 --> 01:07:06.767
Phil: I figured I'd mainly be playing the low res version, but they actually do a good job with the HD.
01:07:07.647 --> 01:07:08.567
Phil: They don't like...
01:07:09.067 --> 01:07:12.967
Phil: And the other thing is they don't like replace the trees, they just make them high res.
01:07:13.287 --> 01:07:21.927
Phil: So sometimes the trees look chunky, but what is good about that is that it doesn't interfere with sight lines that you might be used to from the original.
01:07:22.387 --> 01:07:26.507
Phil: So if you were used to a certain tree being a certain width or a boulder being a certain...
01:07:27.487 --> 01:07:30.207
Phil: in a certain placement, they haven't changed that at all.
01:07:30.247 --> 01:07:32.287
Phil: They've just basically added textures to it.
01:07:32.807 --> 01:07:34.347
Phil: And for that I was appreciative.
01:07:35.787 --> 01:07:38.527
Phil: So with that, let's go straight into the news.
01:07:39.667 --> 01:07:41.527
Phil: We're just going to jump all over the place here.
01:07:41.807 --> 01:07:44.027
Tom: As we've been doing everywhere else in the podcast?
01:07:44.547 --> 01:07:52.347
Phil: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I want to say is that Ryan Davis from Giant Bomb is dead.
01:07:52.367 --> 01:07:54.727
Phil: And obviously everyone who listens to this podcast knows that.
01:07:54.787 --> 01:08:07.447
Phil: And I don't want to acknowledge it in some soppy kind of way, primarily because this was the most affecting death that I have ever interacted with with someone I didn't know personally.
01:08:08.347 --> 01:08:13.687
Phil: So usually when a personality or celebrity, your sports figure dies, I don't particularly care.
01:08:13.927 --> 01:08:23.527
Phil: So there's nothing we can say here that wasn't best said by the last Giant Bomb cast, which everyone's probably already listened to if they care.
01:08:24.307 --> 01:08:26.447
Phil: So we're not going to go into it in any great detail.
01:08:26.467 --> 01:08:31.927
Phil: But if you listen to someone in a podcast for three hours a week for four or five years, you feel like you know them.
01:08:32.647 --> 01:08:34.347
Phil: And that's why it was so affecting to me.
01:08:34.387 --> 01:08:42.867
Phil: And listening to the obituary podcast on giantbomb.com, it was actually freeing for me because I found out that I didn't really know him.
01:08:43.567 --> 01:08:53.927
Phil: You know, when his actual friends talked about him and talked about the kind of guy he is and the kinds of stuff that he got up to and all that sort of thing, I realized that I did not know who Ryan Davis was at all.
01:08:55.147 --> 01:09:06.007
Phil: Which was actually quite liberating for me and gave me some sense of closure because I realized that no matter how much you think you might know a personality of celebrity, you really don't know him unless you know him.
01:09:07.367 --> 01:09:17.967
Phil: But I'll obviously still miss him because he was a wonderful broadcaster and a great inspiration and just always an entertaining person to talk to.
01:09:18.287 --> 01:09:25.067
Tom: And I will say something else except it would be a throwback to the same famous flippant Oculus Rift comment.
01:09:25.647 --> 01:09:29.727
Phil: Okay, Dota 2 is now released.
01:09:29.747 --> 01:09:31.467
Phil: Next new story.
01:09:31.467 --> 01:09:34.147
Phil: GameStop is no longer taking PlayStation 4 pre-orders.
01:09:34.627 --> 01:09:42.107
Tom: So is this, do we know that, didn't Sony say that they had an unlimited supply or something ridiculous like that?
01:09:42.227 --> 01:09:44.367
Phil: Sony said that they have an unlimited supply.
01:09:44.387 --> 01:09:46.527
Phil: There won't be any waiting for the game.
01:09:46.967 --> 01:09:56.247
Phil: So basically what this means is that GameStop has now taken so many orders that they probably don't have the credit to take any more orders.
01:09:57.327 --> 01:09:57.527
Tom: Or...
01:09:57.547 --> 01:09:58.927
Phil: If you know what I mean.
01:09:58.927 --> 01:10:00.127
Tom: Sony State was bullshit.
01:10:01.767 --> 01:10:05.927
Phil: Or that, but there's plenty of other outlets that are still offering pre-orders, right?
01:10:06.127 --> 01:10:12.787
Phil: So I know Dick Smith Electric here in Australia, you can still get pre-orders there without any problem whatsoever.
01:10:12.807 --> 01:10:14.787
Phil: Put down 50 bucks, you're going to get it on launch day.
01:10:14.807 --> 01:10:19.407
Tom: GameStop would either go to a place for pre-ordering a console.
01:10:19.427 --> 01:10:21.427
Tom: For many people though, would they not?
01:10:21.447 --> 01:10:25.827
Tom: So you might expect them to run out first even if they had the largest selection.
01:10:25.967 --> 01:10:26.647
Phil: Oh yeah.
01:10:27.367 --> 01:10:28.087
Phil: Yeah, that's true.
01:10:28.847 --> 01:10:32.847
Phil: Yep, and I absolutely guarantee more people pre-order it from GameStop than anywhere else.
01:10:33.707 --> 01:10:35.807
Phil: But at a certain point, they had to cut that off.
01:10:36.187 --> 01:10:39.947
Phil: So I guess they don't want to disappoint their customers, so good for them.
01:10:40.707 --> 01:10:43.607
Phil: And that's in the US and North America as well.
01:10:44.107 --> 01:10:49.607
Phil: Last of Us sold more, speaking of sales, Last of Us sold more than 3.4 million worldwide.
01:10:50.307 --> 01:10:51.087
Phil: So that's good.
01:10:51.567 --> 01:10:53.447
Tom: Unless it was published by Square Enix.
01:10:53.927 --> 01:10:54.987
Phil: Why would that be not good?
01:10:55.507 --> 01:10:57.407
Tom: Because they want their games to sell 8 million.
01:10:57.427 --> 01:10:57.987
Tom: 8 million?
01:10:59.747 --> 01:11:00.447
Phil: That's right.
01:11:02.547 --> 01:11:07.847
Phil: Well, I know they had 200,000 copies relegated or set aside or printed for Japan.
01:11:08.287 --> 01:11:13.607
Phil: In Japan, it got the dreaded Sero rating, which means your games have to come in red cases.
01:11:14.207 --> 01:11:16.567
Phil: You cannot show the case publicly.
01:11:16.587 --> 01:11:19.107
Phil: It has to be kept behind the counter.
01:11:19.287 --> 01:11:20.667
Phil: It's something you have to ask for.
01:11:20.687 --> 01:11:25.927
Phil: It's basically the highest level of pornography in Japan.
01:11:25.967 --> 01:11:28.647
Tom: I don't even know that child pornography.
01:11:28.667 --> 01:11:31.227
Phil: Which you can get freely.
01:11:31.967 --> 01:11:35.687
Phil: The Last of Us had 200,000 set aside in Japan.
01:11:35.707 --> 01:11:38.287
Phil: They sold 180,000 of them in the first week.
01:11:39.127 --> 01:11:46.987
Phil: It's nice to see a game that's a little bit different and not easily digestible, getting that level of sales.
01:11:47.367 --> 01:11:50.447
Phil: Also, keep in mind it's console exclusive.
01:11:50.467 --> 01:11:57.747
Phil: Imagine what it would be doing if it were also available on the Wii U or PlayStation or on the Xbox 360.
01:11:57.887 --> 01:11:58.487
Tom: Absolutely.
01:11:59.087 --> 01:12:04.207
Phil: Speaking of the Xbox 360, the Summer of Arcade games have been listed and dated.
01:12:04.227 --> 01:12:14.087
Phil: They're going to come out sometime, but basically the games are Brothers, Charlie Murder, a game called Flashback, and a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle game.
01:12:15.067 --> 01:12:22.267
Tom: I don't think I've heard of any of these games, except possibly for Flashback, but it's such a generic name, I may not have heard of it anyway.
01:12:22.487 --> 01:12:24.187
Phil: Yeah, no one cares.
01:12:24.527 --> 01:12:33.547
Tom: But you did miss out on something that many people do care about, or at least I do, and that is that Insomniac Games themselves are developing a U Ratchet and Clank game.
01:12:34.327 --> 01:12:34.727
Tom: Yeah.
01:12:36.227 --> 01:12:37.527
Phil: I'm sorry, did I chuckle?
01:12:38.067 --> 01:12:38.907
Tom: What's wrong with that?
01:12:39.627 --> 01:12:48.947
Phil: Well, as we've effusively discussed in almost every podcast, we both agree that Kill Resistance 3 is the best first person shooter of the generation.
01:12:50.167 --> 01:12:54.327
Phil: You pretty much invariably at some point in the show always say...
01:12:54.727 --> 01:12:58.407
Tom: Remember Resistance 3 and that it's the best game of the generation.
01:12:58.427 --> 01:13:01.887
Tom: I mean, I don't think it's even the best first person shooter of the generation.
01:13:01.907 --> 01:13:04.067
Tom: I think it's the best game of the generation.
01:13:04.087 --> 01:13:04.787
Phil: Exactly.
01:13:05.087 --> 01:13:16.607
Phil: And then Insomniac, you know, to their own detriment, goes off reservation and makes a Facebook game with avatars, right?
01:13:16.627 --> 01:13:19.827
Phil: Because they're like, no, we've been a Sony exclusive party, but guess what?
01:13:19.847 --> 01:13:20.987
Phil: We don't need Sony no more.
01:13:21.007 --> 01:13:22.587
Phil: We're going to make a Facebook game.
01:13:22.727 --> 01:13:24.487
Phil: So they go make a Facebook game.
01:13:25.247 --> 01:13:26.827
Phil: Fail tremendously.
01:13:26.847 --> 01:13:27.427
Tom: Shock horror.
01:13:27.447 --> 01:13:27.707
Phil: Right?
01:13:28.387 --> 01:13:28.667
Phil: Yep.
01:13:29.167 --> 01:13:32.727
Phil: Then they make some other crap shooter game, right?
01:13:33.407 --> 01:13:34.527
Phil: Fuse, right?
01:13:35.387 --> 01:13:40.387
Phil: Cross platform and fail ridiculously.
01:13:40.407 --> 01:13:45.207
Phil: So now they've blown all their money from Ratchet and Clank and the Resistance franchise, right?
01:13:45.987 --> 01:13:47.047
Phil: This is just so great.
01:13:47.047 --> 01:13:47.607
Phil: I love this.
01:13:47.667 --> 01:13:52.747
Phil: So they come crawling back to Sony and they'll now announce a new Ratchet and Clank game.
01:13:52.767 --> 01:14:00.607
Phil: They're going back to the well and they're going to make it a PlayStation 3 exclusive later this fall, which is no time at all.
01:14:00.607 --> 01:14:02.487
Phil: This is like four months.
01:14:02.507 --> 01:14:02.727
Tom: Yeah.
01:14:03.187 --> 01:14:06.447
Tom: Well, Pursuit has been in development for a while already.
01:14:06.927 --> 01:14:07.947
Phil: Well, they've been working.
01:14:07.967 --> 01:14:11.667
Phil: I don't see how because they're not a two-game studio and they've been working on Fuse.
01:14:12.327 --> 01:14:16.307
Phil: I just don't see how they can get this game spat out in that amount of time and how it can be good.
01:14:16.327 --> 01:14:18.087
Phil: And this is supposed to be a full version.
01:14:18.107 --> 01:14:23.487
Phil: It's not supposed to be some half-assed expansion like the other Ratchet and Clank games.
01:14:23.507 --> 01:14:28.007
Tom: It is only a $30 title though, so I'm thinking maybe it's going to be something like a...
01:14:28.767 --> 01:14:29.187
Phil: Quick hit.
01:14:29.207 --> 01:14:32.787
Tom: Yeah, six-hour to 10-hour, the most, sort of, platformer.
01:14:33.527 --> 01:14:36.527
Phil: Yeah, they're lowering expectations to the lowest absolute level.
01:14:36.547 --> 01:14:36.807
Tom: Yeah.
01:14:37.987 --> 01:14:46.127
Tom: And I think the most amazing thing about this was the fact that they had what appeared to be a riff gate in their trailer.
01:14:46.147 --> 01:14:51.267
Tom: So everyone was thinking, there's going to be some amazing crossover with Jack and Baxter, right?
01:14:51.367 --> 01:14:53.647
Phil: Someone at the VG Press pointed that out, Leo.
01:14:54.327 --> 01:14:56.747
Phil: And I was like, absolutely.
01:14:56.767 --> 01:15:00.167
Phil: I mean, you just had to look at the guy's ears and you would have known immediately.
01:15:00.567 --> 01:15:13.607
Tom: And the thing about that, though, is I don't think you can take from that picture that it was a riff gate, because you look at a riff gate, this is a science fiction extreme cliché, right?
01:15:13.627 --> 01:15:19.587
Tom: So everyone that does this circle portal has their own little differentiating signature.
01:15:19.887 --> 01:15:22.667
Tom: I think Stargate has triangles.
01:15:22.807 --> 01:15:24.507
Tom: I think it's three triangles or something.
01:15:25.147 --> 01:15:28.367
Tom: And Jack and Baxter has rectangles sticking in.
01:15:28.907 --> 01:15:30.447
Tom: There were no rectangles on this.
01:15:31.047 --> 01:15:32.427
Phil: Yeah, that's an extra angle.
01:15:32.507 --> 01:15:32.767
Tom: Yeah.
01:15:33.507 --> 01:15:34.727
Tom: This was just circles.
01:15:34.967 --> 01:15:42.427
Tom: I don't think you could look at that and say that is a rift gate because it doesn't have the signifying thing that makes it a rift gate.
01:15:42.447 --> 01:15:45.107
Tom: That's just a generic portal.
01:15:45.787 --> 01:15:53.087
Tom: So to me, my take from that was this is going to be what the portals look like in Ratchet and Clank.
01:15:53.107 --> 01:15:59.647
Tom: And I guarantee there's going to be some sort of poor thing in this Ratchet and Clank game that looks like that.
01:15:59.927 --> 01:16:06.547
Tom: And Ratchet and Clank has always been sci-fi, so I don't think that jumping to the conclusion that that was Jak and Daxter was at all fair.
01:16:06.567 --> 01:16:09.467
Tom: But the character silhouette did look quite like that.
01:16:09.487 --> 01:16:11.747
Phil: Yeah, yeah, the character silhouette is what did it for me.
01:16:12.107 --> 01:16:13.087
Phil: You know, forget the portal.
01:16:13.107 --> 01:16:14.347
Tom: But everyone was saying the portal.
01:16:15.607 --> 01:16:17.427
Phil: Ah, well, they're idiots.
01:16:17.467 --> 01:16:21.627
Phil: I was going by the shape of the character's ears, so that makes me probably king of the idiots.
01:16:21.727 --> 01:16:22.247
Tom: Exactly.
01:16:22.267 --> 01:16:26.687
Tom: And can I just say I want another Jak and Daxter game developed by Naughty Dog.
01:16:27.227 --> 01:16:28.207
Phil: Okay, you can say that.
01:16:28.747 --> 01:16:30.547
Phil: And maybe, what if it comes out on the Vita?
01:16:30.567 --> 01:16:31.307
Phil: Then you'll be screwed.
01:16:31.327 --> 01:16:34.387
Tom: Yeah, well, at least it will exist.
01:16:35.047 --> 01:16:39.887
Phil: Yeah, I think if it does exist, they'll probably test the waters with a digital download game only.
01:16:41.067 --> 01:16:43.387
Phil: Just to see if there is still interest in that sort of thing.
01:16:43.687 --> 01:16:45.027
Phil: And you know, here's a thing.
01:16:45.907 --> 01:16:46.587
Phil: Here's someone.
01:16:46.627 --> 01:16:48.107
Phil: I'm thinking of the children.
01:16:48.267 --> 01:16:50.227
Phil: Where are the children's games?
01:16:50.247 --> 01:16:54.767
Phil: Where are the Jak and the Daxters and the Ratchet and the Clank and the Sly Coopers?
01:16:55.687 --> 01:16:57.107
Phil: I guess it's Skylanders, right?
01:16:57.187 --> 01:17:11.687
Tom: The fact of the matter is, of course, well yeah, they're Skylanders, but the fact of the matter is, what is the biggest children's game series of the generation and what has resulted in there being no, quote, children's games, end quote.
01:17:11.827 --> 01:17:12.627
Tom: Call of Duty.
01:17:12.847 --> 01:17:13.707
Phil: I was going to say Angry Bird.
01:17:13.727 --> 01:17:15.227
Tom: No, Call of Duty is the answer to that.
01:17:15.547 --> 01:17:16.607
Phil: Alright, fair enough.
01:17:17.727 --> 01:17:21.147
Phil: This is where THQ would have come in with all their licensed Pixar games.
01:17:21.247 --> 01:17:23.387
Phil: And then Disney isn't doing their own games either.
01:17:23.387 --> 01:17:25.327
Phil: I mean, they're going to do that Disney Infinity thing.
01:17:25.767 --> 01:17:27.427
Tom: Also known as Disney Skylanders.
01:17:28.007 --> 01:17:29.027
Phil: So that was our quick news.
01:17:29.047 --> 01:17:30.987
Phil: Now we're going to go to long news.
01:17:32.687 --> 01:17:40.447
Phil: Probably the most biggest news, non-Ryan Davis news this week, was that GTA, for the first time, Rockstar released gameplay footage.
01:17:40.727 --> 01:17:43.307
Phil: They've never before released gameplay footage of a game.
01:17:44.327 --> 01:17:48.127
Phil: They've always just done their cinematic teasers.
01:17:48.147 --> 01:18:09.227
Tom: I think there's no doubt, and given the content of the gameplay teaser, there was no doubt this was because everyone ended up basically thinking GTA IV was shit, because the stuff that they're highlighting in the trailer is everything that people complained about GTA IV, and they're basically saying, oh look, hey, the shooting's good this time, the driving's good this time.
01:18:09.367 --> 01:18:13.487
Phil: This is, to use a basketball term, a full court press.
01:18:13.527 --> 01:18:18.607
Phil: They are, I think they looked at basically the response to The Last of Us, right?
01:18:18.767 --> 01:18:23.327
Phil: And Naughty Dog's been eating their lunch in terms of what they've always prided themselves in.
01:18:23.587 --> 01:18:33.767
Phil: I think Rockstar North has always ridiculously staked their claim out, as they are the masters of storytelling, which is of course absolutely ludicrous.
01:18:33.787 --> 01:18:36.767
Phil: They're not even the masters of cartoon storytelling.
01:18:36.787 --> 01:18:40.027
Tom: They're not even the masters of creating a plot.
01:18:40.867 --> 01:18:41.827
Phil: No, not at all.
01:18:42.287 --> 01:18:44.347
Phil: In fact, they're the masters of killing a plot.
01:18:44.447 --> 01:18:48.447
Phil: Because once you start getting interested in the story, they start weighing it down with a billion fetch quests.
01:18:49.407 --> 01:18:56.227
Phil: Now, as frequent listeners will know, but to explain to new listeners, I'm actually a huge fan of the Grand Theft Auto series.
01:18:56.247 --> 01:18:58.067
Phil: I've played them all, beaten them all, except for two.
01:18:58.447 --> 01:19:01.087
Tom: Except for two games or except for GTA 2?
01:19:01.107 --> 01:19:03.947
Phil: Except I haven't beaten Vice City and I haven't beaten San Andreas.
01:19:04.107 --> 01:19:10.087
Phil: San Andreas was because there's a bug, and Vice City was because I just got stuck and I can't get by it.
01:19:10.107 --> 01:19:10.687
Phil: So whatever.
01:19:12.527 --> 01:19:14.187
Phil: But I'm a huge fan.
01:19:14.807 --> 01:19:18.367
Phil: But I've never been a fan of Rockstar, because they're not very sympathetic people.
01:19:18.867 --> 01:19:20.827
Phil: They don't come out and talk to the press.
01:19:21.387 --> 01:19:24.587
Phil: They don't give interviews, but for once every six or seven years.
01:19:25.907 --> 01:19:29.447
Phil: And they seem to have a tremendous level of arrogance about themselves.
01:19:30.127 --> 01:19:38.347
Tom: Minus the interviewers, what they strike me as, sorry, minus the fact that they don't do interviews, they're basically the Kanye West of gaming.
01:19:38.687 --> 01:19:39.787
Phil: I wish that they were.
01:19:39.807 --> 01:20:02.967
Tom: Well, that's the thing, because I mean, the appeal of Kanye West is, of course, the interviews, so you get him doing all this random, hilarious crap, but he's openly doing it, whereas Rockstar have got all the arrogance and conceitedness in some areas, but you don't get the hilarity of them publicly making a fool of themselves, right?
01:20:03.007 --> 01:20:04.187
Phil: Exactly, exactly.
01:20:04.307 --> 01:20:05.447
Phil: No, I agree entirely.
01:20:06.467 --> 01:20:11.727
Phil: So anyway, back to the gameplay footage, this was pretty extraordinary.
01:20:11.887 --> 01:20:18.207
Phil: They had a female voiceover for it, which was basically like a corporate spokesperson kind of thing.
01:20:18.967 --> 01:20:20.587
Phil: It was not what I was expecting at all.
01:20:20.607 --> 01:20:27.427
Phil: I thought the gameplay footage would have been basically just showing you gameplay footage with musical montage and voice acting.
01:20:27.447 --> 01:20:35.267
Tom: Can I just ask, is sublime a genuine American pronunciation of sublime, or did she just slur that word?
01:20:35.927 --> 01:20:37.567
Phil: You pronounce sublime sublime.
01:20:38.227 --> 01:20:41.567
Phil: Yeah, you would never pause or hyphenate sublime.
01:20:41.587 --> 01:20:42.727
Tom: Okay, because she did.
01:20:43.627 --> 01:20:44.767
Tom: Quite spectacularly.
01:20:45.227 --> 01:20:50.947
Phil: If she was speaking slowly, then you could say the experience was sublime.
01:20:51.647 --> 01:20:53.207
Phil: No, that still doesn't work.
01:20:53.807 --> 01:20:56.087
Phil: No, there's no excuse for sublime.
01:20:57.127 --> 01:21:01.687
Phil: And just the way she was speaking, this to me was a downer of a...
01:21:02.327 --> 01:21:04.807
Phil: Because you took the last one, right?
01:21:04.947 --> 01:21:07.607
Phil: The teaser, and this reminds me, I've got to preorder this game.
01:21:09.007 --> 01:21:15.127
Phil: If you look at the teaser for it, it was like, I am going down to the store right now and buying or stealing this game.
01:21:15.387 --> 01:21:18.447
Phil: You know, where they had that trailer that we talked about on air.
01:21:18.747 --> 01:21:20.227
Phil: It just made you want the game.
01:21:20.607 --> 01:21:22.047
Phil: And this one was more of a...
01:21:22.767 --> 01:21:27.287
Phil: If you look to your left, you'll see that the Grand Canyon is coming up.
01:21:27.967 --> 01:21:36.447
Phil: Note how spectacular the geological forms have taken over the millennia that took to create the Grand Canyon.
01:21:37.087 --> 01:21:38.687
Phil: It just put me to sleep.
01:21:38.747 --> 01:21:40.007
Phil: It just killed me.
01:21:40.587 --> 01:21:43.787
Phil: I still want the game, but it just totally deadened my interest.
01:21:43.807 --> 01:21:49.387
Phil: But once you turned her off and just looked at the gameplay, I thought there were some pretty interesting things in it.
01:21:49.407 --> 01:21:52.267
Phil: They actually showed you how the character switching was going to work, for one.
01:21:52.567 --> 01:21:56.767
Phil: Which I think is going to be either the best or worst part of this game.
01:21:56.787 --> 01:22:06.367
Tom: Well, the thing that worries me about this is this could end up being the most annoying, chore-like gameplay that also really negatively affects other parts of the design.
01:22:06.387 --> 01:22:13.867
Tom: For example, for certain things, you might have to spend like five minutes putting these three different characters in certain strategic areas.
01:22:13.887 --> 01:22:17.347
Tom: And let's be honest, it's not going to be a deep strategy game.
01:22:17.447 --> 01:22:24.487
Tom: So it's just going to be incredibly chore-like if the result is that you've got to spend so much time setting people up.
01:22:24.507 --> 01:22:34.447
Tom: And the other thing is it can also greatly negatively affect the game, the combat, it could make it really scripted affairs and all that sort of stuff.
01:22:34.467 --> 01:22:45.427
Tom: And I think that's kind of another issue that they had with the trailer is that the stuff they're showing, because they highlight it individually, individually none of it is actually that interesting.
01:22:45.447 --> 01:22:50.287
Tom: Like the shooting in it looks like the greatest shooter ever compared to Grand Theft Auto IV.
01:22:50.447 --> 01:22:56.287
Tom: But if you compare it to other shooters, it looks like boring, generic, mediocre crap, right?
01:22:56.307 --> 01:23:04.207
Tom: If you highlight any one area of a GTA game, it's not going to look that interesting, which is exactly what they've done here.
01:23:04.907 --> 01:23:18.147
Phil: Well, the appeal to a Grand Theft Auto game, when Grand Theft Auto III first came out, was like, oh my god, it's a racing game, oh my god, it's a third person action game, oh my god, it's a third person brawler, right?
01:23:18.847 --> 01:23:20.587
Phil: Oh my god, it's an open world game.
01:23:21.467 --> 01:23:29.107
Phil: And before then, people were completely satisfied with buying a game like Driver, which is extremely limited.
01:23:30.047 --> 01:23:34.187
Phil: People were content to pay for Crazy Taxi, which is great.
01:23:34.207 --> 01:23:35.867
Phil: I mean, you should pay for Crazy Taxi.
01:23:35.887 --> 01:23:39.707
Phil: It's a fun driving game, but that's just one aspect of Grand Theft Auto.
01:23:40.887 --> 01:23:47.927
Phil: And now they're introducing Golf, just as Yakuza had done prior, and all these other elements as well.
01:23:47.947 --> 01:23:53.107
Phil: So their shtick has always been Jack of all trades, Master of None.
01:23:53.127 --> 01:23:54.547
Phil: That's always been their appeal.
01:23:55.107 --> 01:23:57.867
Phil: This is a one-stop shop for gaming experiences.
01:23:58.907 --> 01:24:08.167
Phil: Now, when Saints Row III, they took that even further with things like text adventures and things like that, and flying games.
01:24:08.267 --> 01:24:13.687
Phil: And they've done flying in Grand Theft Auto before as well, but the flying has always been absolutely horrible.
01:24:15.127 --> 01:24:18.567
Phil: So even in that level, they're being outdone by Saints Row.
01:24:18.587 --> 01:24:22.907
Phil: They're being outdone on the story level by Naughty Dog with The Last of Us, among many others.
01:24:22.927 --> 01:24:25.747
Tom: They're being outdone on the story level by basically everyone.
01:24:26.287 --> 01:24:27.287
Phil: Yeah, by everyone.
01:24:28.127 --> 01:24:31.067
Phil: By Pac-Man CE.
01:24:31.627 --> 01:24:32.147
Phil: So, yeah.
01:24:32.267 --> 01:24:37.707
Phil: So, in any case, this kind of dampened my anticipation for the game.
01:24:37.727 --> 01:24:40.767
Phil: Nonetheless, I will be getting it at launch and talking about it on the show.
01:24:40.787 --> 01:24:42.567
Tom: But Kojima absolutely loves it.
01:24:42.907 --> 01:24:43.707
Phil: Yes, indeed.
01:24:43.727 --> 01:24:45.467
Phil: He said that he was kind of pissed off.
01:24:45.487 --> 01:24:48.547
Phil: He says he doesn't think that his five will match their five.
01:24:48.547 --> 01:24:57.907
Tom: And all I can say is, the Metal Gear Solid 5 trailer, the gameplay they showed and the way they presented it, was in fact significantly worse than the GTA 5 trailer.
01:24:57.927 --> 01:25:00.927
Tom: So, perhaps he's on to something, at least in their presentation.
01:25:01.227 --> 01:25:07.147
Phil: Yeah, I think there are a couple of franchises that should be rested, and Metal Gear Solid is one of them.
01:25:08.147 --> 01:25:12.107
Tom: Which is an opinion that Kojima supposedly shared on many occasions.
01:25:12.787 --> 01:25:15.227
Phil: Yes, for about the last 15 years.
01:25:16.847 --> 01:25:28.267
Phil: In other big news, so Nintendo has said that when it comes to the scale of software development, Wii U and HD graphics requires about twice the human resources than before.
01:25:29.627 --> 01:25:32.867
Phil: Please allow me to explain that we may have underestimated the scale of this change.
01:25:33.207 --> 01:25:35.467
Phil: This is what led to the release delay for Pikmin 3.
01:25:35.487 --> 01:25:42.227
Phil: The overall software development took more time than originally anticipated as we tried to polish the software at a completion phase of development.
01:25:42.927 --> 01:25:51.067
Phil: So we talked in two podcasts ago about how developers had to confront HD development in this generation.
01:25:51.707 --> 01:25:55.027
Tom: We were in fact just talking about it in this podcast with Halo even.
01:25:55.687 --> 01:26:01.927
Phil: Oh yeah, and in terms of how developers had to grapple with it, but they finally come to terms with it.
01:26:01.947 --> 01:26:11.527
Phil: At first it was ridiculously expensive and resource heavy, but then they figured out how to use engines and staffing appropriately, and now they can enter this next generation.
01:26:12.127 --> 01:26:30.527
Phil: Poised pretty well to be able to make good games at a high quality with pretty limited resources, whereas Nintendo is now grappling with this a generation late for the first time, and have shockingly admitted as such with this statement.
01:26:30.987 --> 01:26:35.367
Tom: I think that's the surprising part that they've come out and said this rather than it being the case.
01:26:35.847 --> 01:26:36.687
Phil: Why would you say this?
01:26:37.007 --> 01:26:38.447
Phil: I mean, it's refreshing.
01:26:39.207 --> 01:26:56.467
Tom: Do you think maybe it is simply due to the lack of releases on the Wii U, so they think perhaps a genuine excuse or reason for the delay of Pikmin 3, which they were hyping as a release title, right?
01:26:57.507 --> 01:26:57.827
Phil: Yes.
01:26:57.847 --> 01:26:58.367
Phil: Yep.
01:26:58.787 --> 01:26:59.767
Tom: Was necessary.
01:27:00.027 --> 01:27:10.367
Tom: So the negative aspects, PR aspects of them, admitting that they're having trouble, perhaps outweigh them delaying the game without a valid excuse.
01:27:11.607 --> 01:27:18.467
Tom: If they just come out and said, we're delaying it because we want it to be perfect, everyone's going to say, well, fuck you, we just want a goddamn game.
01:27:18.487 --> 01:27:19.747
Tom: We don't care if it's not perfect.
01:27:19.907 --> 01:27:27.847
Tom: But if they come out and say, it comes across as a genuine admission of trouble, people are going to stomach it more easily.
01:27:28.567 --> 01:27:35.147
Phil: Yeah, but the problem with this is that they announced Pikmin 3, Miyamoto did offstage at E3, like four years ago.
01:27:35.187 --> 01:27:36.987
Phil: It was originally going to be a Wii title.
01:27:37.527 --> 01:27:39.467
Phil: And they're still floundering about with it.
01:27:40.967 --> 01:27:42.907
Phil: This would hurt their stock tremendously.
01:27:42.927 --> 01:27:52.307
Phil: I mean, because they're basically admitting, this would be like a Ford CEO coming forward and saying, God, you know, all these safety regulations with the seatbelts and the airbags and everything.
01:27:52.507 --> 01:27:54.947
Phil: It's like requiring twice the staff.
01:27:55.287 --> 01:27:57.407
Phil: We don't know how to make cars anymore.
01:27:57.427 --> 01:27:59.387
Phil: I mean, God, this is hard stuff.
01:27:59.447 --> 01:28:01.247
Phil: We're going to have to get robots and shit.
01:28:01.267 --> 01:28:02.567
Phil: What the hell is going on?
01:28:02.867 --> 01:28:06.027
Phil: We can't even bring out a game we first launched four years ago.
01:28:06.047 --> 01:28:07.707
Phil: No, it's a bloody nightmare.
01:28:07.727 --> 01:28:08.347
Phil: Let me tell you.
01:28:08.367 --> 01:28:11.187
Phil: You know, I mean, this hurts them.
01:28:11.547 --> 01:28:12.987
Phil: This is not voting well.
01:28:13.447 --> 01:28:17.467
Phil: I mean, the fact that they're telling the truth about it is nice for me as a gamer.
01:28:17.687 --> 01:28:19.187
Phil: I like candor.
01:28:19.187 --> 01:28:21.387
Phil: It'd be nice to know these things up front.
01:28:21.927 --> 01:28:25.467
Phil: But basically, they're looking confident as it is for not releasing the game.
01:28:25.787 --> 01:28:34.447
Phil: So coming forward and saying, we weren't competent enough to come up with the full planning in terms of researching what it takes to release an HD game.
01:28:34.767 --> 01:28:38.287
Phil: So that's why all our games are late.
01:28:38.307 --> 01:28:47.747
Phil: That doesn't provide any excuse for the third party support, because the third parties are already chest deep in how to do HD games.
01:28:48.047 --> 01:28:51.067
Phil: And in fact, the Wii U should be a slam dunk no brainer.
01:28:51.767 --> 01:28:54.507
Phil: It should just be another channel that you release your HD game on.
01:28:55.847 --> 01:28:57.547
Phil: And they're still not doing it.
01:28:58.767 --> 01:29:18.227
Phil: And you got Ubisoft out there, this is really a downer, I didn't want to really talk about this, but you got Ubisoft out there saying that Zombie U, which was the premier launch game that gamers enjoyed, lost money and they have no intention, quote, or desire to make a sequel for it.
01:29:18.447 --> 01:29:26.327
Tom: Well, I mean, if they ever did, if they were expecting that, to make a large amount of money, or even not lose money, they were utterly stupid.
01:29:26.347 --> 01:29:28.807
Tom: That is an incredibly niche game.
01:29:28.867 --> 01:29:33.567
Tom: Yes, it has zombies in it, but it is an actual survival horror game, right?
01:29:33.867 --> 01:29:44.467
Tom: And you cannot make, this is a demonstrated fact, you cannot make a full budget survival horror game at the moment in gaming.
01:29:44.487 --> 01:29:46.987
Phil: I don't know if it's a full budget, but you are right.
01:29:47.267 --> 01:29:51.767
Tom: It's certainly not like it was on the level of making a niche title.
01:29:52.047 --> 01:29:53.027
Tom: It was larger than that.
01:29:53.747 --> 01:30:00.407
Phil: I recant, and you are absolutely right in the premise, because if you look at Alan Wake, that is a game that should have gotten a sequel.
01:30:00.447 --> 01:30:06.487
Phil: And if it were cross-platform, it would have gotten a proper sequel, not the American Tourist one or whatever it was called.
01:30:06.507 --> 01:30:07.547
Tom: American Nightmare.
01:30:07.567 --> 01:30:10.427
Phil: Accidental Tourist, right.
01:30:10.847 --> 01:30:13.167
Phil: That game should have gotten a full sequel, right?
01:30:13.327 --> 01:30:14.967
Phil: But because it was single platform, it didn't.
01:30:15.467 --> 01:30:20.547
Phil: And Ubisoft, though, they know what they are getting into when they release these games for these consoles.
01:30:20.567 --> 01:30:23.867
Phil: They always spam them with games like Red Steel and all the rest of it.
01:30:24.687 --> 01:30:26.427
Phil: So I just don't understand.
01:30:26.567 --> 01:30:32.607
Phil: They know what they are doing when it comes to releasing games for a new console.
01:30:32.747 --> 01:30:34.687
Phil: They know the install base is going to be low.
01:30:36.127 --> 01:30:40.767
Phil: Red Steel was a one-to-one purchase for the Wii.
01:30:41.287 --> 01:30:44.647
Phil: And I guess they were assuming it was going to be the case for Zombie U as well.
01:30:46.747 --> 01:30:50.127
Tom: I think perhaps with Zombie U, what they were doing was...
01:30:50.667 --> 01:30:54.867
Tom: because Legends was meant to come out much earlier as a Wii U exclusive, of course.
01:30:54.887 --> 01:31:06.927
Tom: So I would have looked at it as they were going to make their money on Legends, but they were going to have Zombie U as the title that many people in the company might have wanted to make.
01:31:07.627 --> 01:31:10.227
Phil: Anyway, it's a big downer and I hope it turns around.
01:31:10.247 --> 01:31:15.407
Tom: But of course, Ubisoft is actually supporting the Wii U more than basically any publisher.
01:31:15.427 --> 01:31:16.107
Phil: Anyone else.
01:31:16.307 --> 01:31:16.747
Phil: Oh yeah.
01:31:17.387 --> 01:31:18.447
Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:31:18.467 --> 01:31:19.307
Phil: They're trying to own it.
01:31:20.667 --> 01:31:31.687
Phil: But having their CEO come out and say defamatory, not defamatory, but clearly negative statements about the platform in which they're most heavily invested more than any other third party is not a good sign.
01:31:31.707 --> 01:31:35.427
Phil: It's showing that he's a little bit frustrated about the level of commercial success that they're having.
01:31:35.447 --> 01:31:48.187
Tom: But him even making that statement, I think, is obviously not the same degree as Nintendo's statement, but it's the same self-damaging sort of statement because they are releasing so many titles for the console.
01:31:48.487 --> 01:31:49.807
Tom: Why are they then criticizing it?
01:31:50.327 --> 01:32:00.027
Phil: Yeah, and particularly amongst enthusiasts for Nintendo, the last thing you want to say is anything negative about Nintendo because that will wash over onto your other games, right?
01:32:00.307 --> 01:32:02.927
Phil: They'll go, screw Ubisoft because blah, blah, blah.
01:32:03.027 --> 01:32:04.427
Phil: Yeah.
01:32:04.447 --> 01:32:14.027
Phil: So to end on good news and kind of strangely ironic news, digital PlayStation 4 games, whatever that means, will be accessible from any console.
01:32:14.787 --> 01:32:25.727
Phil: This is what Microsoft was promising with the Xbox One and then took back because we were also immature and we can't apparently deserve a modern console.
01:32:26.987 --> 01:32:40.567
Phil: And so just to rub it in, this week Sony released that yeah, you'll be able to start playing any game while it's installing from the disc, which is a feature of the Xbox One, and also any digital game you buy.
01:32:40.647 --> 01:32:47.747
Phil: So if you buy Super Meat Boy 4 digitally and I come over to your house, I can just log on to my account and start playing it while it's installing.
01:32:47.767 --> 01:32:50.187
Tom: And I assume you can play these games offline, right?
01:32:51.647 --> 01:32:54.047
Phil: Since they said that you can play all games offline.
01:32:54.147 --> 01:32:57.647
Tom: So this is basically the ultimate version of PSN sharing, right?
01:32:58.647 --> 01:33:09.727
Phil: I believe, however, what this means, though, is that if I'm coming over to your house, I log on to my PSN account, and it starts downloading, I start playing Super Meat Boy 4, right?
01:33:10.707 --> 01:33:18.227
Phil: As soon as I go home and log back into my PlayStation 4, it's not going to allow synchronous logins.
01:33:18.987 --> 01:33:20.847
Phil: It'll basically say, oh, you're over here now.
01:33:21.107 --> 01:33:23.087
Phil: Okay, so you can play your games over here now.
01:33:23.367 --> 01:33:27.667
Tom: Will it then prevent you from playing games on the other console if you do not log in?
01:33:28.307 --> 01:33:28.827
Phil: Absolutely.
01:33:28.847 --> 01:33:30.327
Phil: That's terrible then.
01:33:30.347 --> 01:33:42.007
Phil: If you know that I go to bed at 8.30 every night, and you're up from 8.30 to midnight, then you could basically give you my login information, and you'd be able to log in as me and play Super Meat Boy 4.
01:33:42.567 --> 01:33:43.887
Tom: That's still below what PSN sharing is.
01:33:47.327 --> 01:33:49.787
Phil: Oh yeah, which was insane, and obviously...
01:33:49.807 --> 01:33:51.027
Tom: And an awesome feature though.
01:33:51.627 --> 01:33:54.307
Phil: Yeah, but it's something that you wouldn't expect them to include.
01:33:55.367 --> 01:33:59.267
Phil: But the very fact that they are including this, and this is the ability for me to...
01:33:59.547 --> 01:34:03.107
Phil: It's the equivalent of me saying, hey, I'm coming over to your house, what games do you want me to bring?
01:34:03.787 --> 01:34:05.967
Phil: In the past, that's been limited to physical games.
01:34:06.087 --> 01:34:14.587
Phil: Now I can also say, oh hey, and check out Thomas' Got Friends, the sequel to Thomas Was Aligned, and then you start playing it right away.
01:34:16.747 --> 01:34:17.867
Phil: No, that's not.
01:34:19.087 --> 01:34:33.947
Tom: So even though it's not full game sharing, it's something at least, and I'm just going to advertise a random article I read, which had some interesting content in it, and we'll stick the link to it in the show notes, which was A Tale of Two E3s, Xbox vs.
01:34:33.967 --> 01:34:34.947
Tom: Sony vs.
01:34:35.047 --> 01:35:14.227
Tom: Sega on MCV UK, which is interesting because it features some, I suppose you could call it interviews, with Tom Kalinsky, who was the ex-Sega America boss, and Steve Race, who was, I think, the ex-Sony boss, Sony America boss at the time as well, and it has some humorous insights into the completely different nature of E3 back then, and that Sony and Sega were attempting to work together until Sega pointed out that Sony are incompetent idiots.
01:35:14.247 --> 01:35:15.487
Tom: Why would we want to work with them?
01:35:16.187 --> 01:35:27.187
Phil: If I were in charge of either Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo back then, I would have bought up Sega, Lock, Stock and Barrel, and kept those Dreamcast teams intact.
01:35:28.447 --> 01:35:37.027
Tom: Yep, and I think, actually, probably the most interesting insight from the article was that you would have bought Sega, had you been Bill Gates back then.
01:35:37.807 --> 01:35:40.667
Phil: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
01:35:40.687 --> 01:35:44.707
Phil: And had he done so, he probably would have solved this whole malaria thing a lot quicker.
01:35:44.727 --> 01:35:45.487
Tom: Yep, exactly.
01:35:46.327 --> 01:35:49.587
Tom: If only you had done that today, we would be free of malaria.
01:35:50.967 --> 01:35:51.747
Phil: So, is that it?
01:35:51.767 --> 01:35:52.987
Phil: Are we done with the podcast?
01:35:53.007 --> 01:35:55.367
Phil: I think we've done a pretty good job so far.
01:35:55.627 --> 01:36:09.687
Tom: Well, let's pretend we are finished and act as if this is another random tangent, and going to impromptu, ignore what we said at the beginning of the podcast, this was not planned, and impromptu Bioshock interview.
01:36:10.447 --> 01:36:11.327
Tom: Sorry, preview.
01:36:11.967 --> 01:36:14.047
Phil: No, no, let's do the Bioshock interview.
01:36:14.067 --> 01:36:16.647
Phil: You can be Ken Levine.
01:36:16.847 --> 01:36:18.307
Phil: No, I'm going to be Bioshock.
01:36:19.207 --> 01:36:21.547
Phil: I'm going to be Bioshock, and just go ahead and give me the map.
01:36:21.567 --> 01:36:24.147
Tom: I'm going to be Ken Levine asking Bioshock questions.
01:36:24.887 --> 01:36:25.707
Phil: Oh, very good.
01:36:27.467 --> 01:36:29.427
Tom: Aren't you the greatest game ever made?
01:36:30.607 --> 01:36:38.267
Phil: Well, Ken, I know you're only asking that to be polite, because you already know that I'm the greatest game ever made.
01:36:38.547 --> 01:36:39.967
Phil: You made me, after all.
01:36:40.347 --> 01:36:42.287
Tom: Am I not incredibly handsome?
01:36:43.267 --> 01:36:50.267
Phil: You are incredibly handsome, and I think that all of the NPCs in the game should carry your hairy visage.
01:36:51.347 --> 01:37:00.287
Tom: And one final question, Bioshock, which do you think is better, Bioshock Infinite or Bioshock?
01:37:00.307 --> 01:37:04.647
Tom: I mean, obviously I'm asking Bioshock, but just...
01:37:04.927 --> 01:37:09.187
Phil: Well, Bioshock Infinite is kind of my grandchild.
01:37:09.327 --> 01:37:12.907
Phil: Well, actually my son, since Bioshock 2 doesn't exist.
01:37:12.927 --> 01:37:13.547
Phil: Right, Ken?
01:37:13.547 --> 01:37:14.787
Tom: That's right, that's right.
01:37:14.947 --> 01:37:27.527
Phil: So I take tremendous pride in my son, Bioshock Infinite, and as with all parents, I want my son or daughter to succeed on a level higher than I did myself.
01:37:27.547 --> 01:37:32.987
Phil: And I think at least graphically, Bioshock Infinite does that in spades.
01:37:33.847 --> 01:37:49.347
Phil: Also, the little sister in Bioshock has cleavage, so I'd have to say that my son-daughter game has cleavage, therefore it is superior to me because all I had was little sisters and big daddies.
01:37:49.427 --> 01:37:50.407
Phil: Ahem, harumph.
01:37:50.467 --> 01:37:53.587
Tom: And you know who that cleavage is based on, don't you?
01:37:56.207 --> 01:37:58.067
Tom: One of my millions of groupies.
01:37:59.987 --> 01:38:01.107
Phil: Oh, you're still Ken Levine?
01:38:01.127 --> 01:38:02.027
Phil: Oh, really?
01:38:02.047 --> 01:38:04.227
Phil: Who might that be?
01:38:05.507 --> 01:38:05.947
Tom: I don't know.
01:38:05.967 --> 01:38:06.887
Tom: I don't know their names.
01:38:06.907 --> 01:38:07.847
Tom: There's so many of them.
01:38:08.787 --> 01:38:14.167
Phil: You know, I'm really regretful up to this point that I wasn't putting on a fake voice for Bioshock.
01:38:14.187 --> 01:38:15.307
Phil: I was just using my regular voice.
01:38:15.327 --> 01:38:16.647
Tom: That's Infinite's voice, I think.
01:38:17.767 --> 01:38:20.127
Phil: Yeah, I'm Bioshock Infinite over here.
01:38:20.567 --> 01:38:21.347
Phil: Okay, here.
01:38:21.807 --> 01:38:24.767
Phil: All right, so you played Bioshock and beat it.
01:38:25.307 --> 01:38:27.547
Phil: I beat it almost a year to the day.
01:38:27.827 --> 01:38:30.247
Phil: I beat it in July 15th.
01:38:30.347 --> 01:38:30.627
Tom: Yep.
01:38:30.927 --> 01:38:34.887
Phil: And I gave the game a nine, right?
01:38:34.907 --> 01:38:35.587
Phil: Yep.
01:38:35.827 --> 01:38:38.007
Phil: I had tried to play the game two times before.
01:38:38.027 --> 01:38:40.327
Phil: I had been calling it Bioshock.
01:38:41.367 --> 01:38:42.507
Phil: I thought it was terrible.
01:38:42.887 --> 01:38:57.287
Phil: And in fact, all of my pre-memories had overwhelmed my post-memories because I had no idea until I started looking into it what my impressions of this game were from just a year ago until I went back and started reading some of my words.
01:38:57.567 --> 01:39:01.867
Phil: And apparently, I was impressed with the game, ultimately.
01:39:03.407 --> 01:39:04.427
Tom: I do not believe that.
01:39:05.147 --> 01:39:08.987
Phil: I must have made a pretty weak impression.
01:39:09.387 --> 01:39:12.307
Phil: But I think the impression that it made before we go into your review...
01:39:12.327 --> 01:39:14.787
Tom: A weak impression deserving of a 9.
01:39:17.527 --> 01:39:18.387
Phil: I will say this.
01:39:18.927 --> 01:39:24.107
Phil: I have never played a game in which I liked force powers.
01:39:24.127 --> 01:39:24.367
Tom: Yeah.
01:39:24.447 --> 01:39:24.787
Phil: Right?
01:39:25.867 --> 01:39:26.227
Phil: Never.
01:39:26.367 --> 01:39:30.907
Phil: I mean, there are tremendous examples out there of games that people love these things in.
01:39:31.607 --> 01:39:36.807
Phil: Games like Geist and Thief and Star Wars The Force Unleashed.
01:39:36.987 --> 01:39:38.367
Phil: Was that really what it was called?
01:39:38.387 --> 01:39:38.627
Tom: Yep.
01:39:39.367 --> 01:39:40.047
Phil: Oh, good God.
01:39:40.287 --> 01:39:43.207
Phil: And it's never worked for me.
01:39:43.387 --> 01:39:45.187
Phil: And it worked for me in this game.
01:39:45.807 --> 01:39:54.187
Phil: Now, having played Bioshock Infinite, I have a different opinion about force powers, which I'll go into in the coming weeks when we both talk about it.
01:39:55.267 --> 01:40:02.987
Phil: But why don't you go ahead and start your oral review and how you found this game?
01:40:03.007 --> 01:40:07.987
Tom: Well, I'm going to start with an anecdote, which could almost possibly be considered backstory.
01:40:08.007 --> 01:40:10.467
Tom: So, my apologies in advance.
01:40:10.587 --> 01:40:17.367
Tom: And you may not have even been particularly aware of this, as at the time when it came out, I believe you were still a console gamer, right?
01:40:18.307 --> 01:40:18.647
Phil: Yeah.
01:40:18.727 --> 01:40:19.007
Tom: Yeah.
01:40:19.387 --> 01:40:22.387
Tom: Well, basically, I downloaded the demo for this.
01:40:22.987 --> 01:40:28.887
Tom: I was always looking forward to it for a variety of reasons, so I actually bothered to download the demo.
01:40:29.007 --> 01:40:31.167
Tom: And guess what the demo contained?
01:40:31.507 --> 01:40:34.927
Phil: Wait, I thought it was a 360 exclusive.
01:40:35.107 --> 01:40:35.287
Tom: No.
01:40:37.827 --> 01:40:38.427
Tom: I don't think so.
01:40:38.447 --> 01:40:42.807
Tom: If it was a 360 exclusive, it very soon after came out on PC.
01:40:43.747 --> 01:40:43.987
Phil: Yeah.
01:40:44.447 --> 01:40:44.807
Tom: Yep.
01:40:44.847 --> 01:40:46.287
Tom: So guess what was in the demo?
01:40:46.927 --> 01:40:49.227
Tom: Remember, this is a promotional free demo.
01:40:50.007 --> 01:40:50.367
Phil: Yeah.
01:40:50.607 --> 01:40:51.547
Phil: Secure ROM.
01:40:52.347 --> 01:40:52.647
Phil: What?
01:40:53.147 --> 01:40:53.447
Tom: Yep.
01:40:54.007 --> 01:40:58.067
Tom: The demo of the game contained the DRM Secure ROM.
01:40:58.747 --> 01:40:59.067
Tom: Yeah.
01:40:59.207 --> 01:40:59.927
Phil: I remember this.
01:40:59.987 --> 01:41:00.227
Tom: Yeah.
01:41:02.287 --> 01:41:10.667
Tom: So, that's the first issue that the game decided to inflict upon itself.
01:41:10.827 --> 01:41:13.887
Tom: The second was, and I also in fact pre-ordered it.
01:41:14.427 --> 01:41:16.027
Phil: It was trying to copy Half-Life 2.
01:41:16.607 --> 01:41:16.927
Tom: Yep.
01:41:17.527 --> 01:41:18.567
Phil: By including Steam.
01:41:19.687 --> 01:41:20.267
Tom: Exactly.
01:41:20.287 --> 01:41:23.607
Tom: Except Secure ROM is even more useless than Steam.
01:41:24.127 --> 01:41:24.667
Phil: Oh, absolutely.
01:41:24.687 --> 01:41:46.647
Tom: Yep, so then, undeterred by this fact completely after figuring out that it was possible to remove Secure ROM at a later date after being finished with the game, I nevertheless pre-ordered it mainly due to the figurine that was part of the packing or the limited edition.
01:41:47.147 --> 01:41:57.687
Phil: I remember this vividly because I had a friend at work who pre-ordered it from Fry's Electronics and it was coming with this figurine and I was like do I really want to pre-order it?
01:41:57.707 --> 01:42:02.347
Phil: I don't know anything about Irrational Games, I'm not sure I want to pre-order it.
01:42:03.687 --> 01:42:13.247
Phil: So I did get a limited release, it comes with a nice embossed cardboard sleeve, but it didn't come with the figurine, but I remember the stories about the figurine at the time.
01:42:13.847 --> 01:42:15.987
Tom: Yep, many of them were broken.
01:42:16.927 --> 01:42:17.927
Phil: All of them were broken.
01:42:18.727 --> 01:42:32.047
Tom: And not only did yours not come in without a figurine, but Jamie Hi-Fi would in fact not give me my broken figurine and was somehow annoyed that I asked for my money back.
01:42:33.767 --> 01:42:37.267
Phil: That's the whole point why you pre-order shit to get the fucking stuff, man.
01:42:37.267 --> 01:42:38.267
Tom: Yep, exactly.
01:42:38.287 --> 01:42:41.647
Tom: Even if it's broken, I still want the thing I paid for.
01:42:42.107 --> 01:42:42.507
Tom: Yeah.
01:42:43.327 --> 01:42:45.007
Phil: Yeah, absolutely.
01:42:45.267 --> 01:42:47.527
Phil: So did you ever get your broken thing?
01:42:47.747 --> 01:42:48.487
Phil: Or did you get the refund?
01:42:48.687 --> 01:42:56.327
Tom: They refused to give it to me, so they eventually, with much outrage and disappointment, gave my money back.
01:42:57.067 --> 01:43:00.607
Tom: It was not until there was a steam sale that I considered buying the game again.
01:43:00.887 --> 01:43:08.527
Tom: I think I paid about $5 for it, which is a fair price for a game without a figurine.
01:43:08.787 --> 01:43:13.747
Tom: The figurine was probably worth about $5 itself, but I wanted my damn figurine.
01:43:14.347 --> 01:43:19.887
Phil: I think I can speak on behalf of Ken Levine, since I've listened to all of his podcasts, and you can listen to his podcasts.
01:43:19.907 --> 01:43:25.807
Phil: He has a show called The Rational Podcast, where he interviews famous developers, so I think at this point I know him.
01:43:25.827 --> 01:43:30.147
Tom: Do you think this consists of him asking them how great Bioshock is?
01:43:31.787 --> 01:43:32.787
Tom: Yep.
01:43:32.867 --> 01:43:42.547
Tom: With the anecdote out of the way, it is actually relevant to the first point I'm going to begin with, which is dedicated to King of Old School from GameSpot.
01:43:42.647 --> 01:43:48.447
Tom: And it's going to be a point that I think you were going to be, perhaps, genuinely outraged about.
01:43:48.467 --> 01:44:04.127
Tom: Now, the reason why the figurine was such, apart from the very fact that I paid for it, the other reason I wanted it even broken was because those were pretty damn awesome figurines, as cheaply made as they were, they looked excellent.
01:44:04.147 --> 01:44:16.647
Tom: And the reason for that is the art style in Bioshock, which is all the characters, including the big daddies and the like, look not even slightly, but exactly like toys, correct?
01:44:18.187 --> 01:44:19.387
Phil: Embarrassingly so.
01:44:19.447 --> 01:44:27.807
Phil: And there is no greater barrier for me to, hurdle for me to have to cross than the aesthetic of the non-playable characters in this game.
01:44:28.547 --> 01:44:30.647
Phil: It is astonishingly bad.
01:44:30.687 --> 01:44:32.507
Tom: It is astonishingly good.
01:44:33.487 --> 01:44:45.647
Tom: And this art style made this probably, I can't think of a game, a non-PC game, because of course I did play this on PC, but it is first and foremost a console game.
01:44:45.667 --> 01:44:52.667
Tom: I cannot think of a console game from 2007 that has technically held up as well with the graphics.
01:44:52.687 --> 01:44:54.167
Tom: And the reason for that is...
01:44:54.527 --> 01:44:55.007
Phil: Wrong.
01:44:55.167 --> 01:44:55.747
Tom: No.
01:44:56.007 --> 01:44:57.007
Tom: I'm in fact correct.
01:44:57.027 --> 01:44:57.647
Tom: I think you're fine.
01:44:57.667 --> 01:44:58.567
Tom: But the reason for that is...
01:44:58.587 --> 01:44:58.867
Phil: Condemned.
01:44:59.387 --> 01:45:00.007
Phil: Condemned.
01:45:00.027 --> 01:45:00.787
Tom: And the reason...
01:45:00.987 --> 01:45:03.827
Tom: Well, actually, I haven't played Condemned yet, but just shut up for a minute.
01:45:05.007 --> 01:45:20.927
Tom: The reason for that is the fact that, and it is clearly a deliberate visual choice based on what Infinite looks like, and as far as I can see anyway, in the game itself, they are meant in fact to look like toys.
01:45:21.047 --> 01:45:34.427
Tom: And this is not just in their immediate appearance, but when they get burnt and various injuries and such like that happens to them, they also look like mangled toys as well.
01:45:34.707 --> 01:45:46.727
Tom: So it's actually a consistent visual style, which you don't find in a game that might have toy-like looking characters by accident generally.
01:45:47.207 --> 01:45:58.787
Tom: And the thing is, you look at it, look at the character models, compare them directly to Bioshock 2, which no longer has such a toy-like look.
01:45:59.467 --> 01:46:02.907
Tom: It's going for a more realistic sort of visual style.
01:46:03.447 --> 01:46:18.887
Tom: And Bioshock actually looks less dated because it's an art style that was pretty much successfully created without being hindered by the technical limitations of an early console release in the generation.
01:46:19.647 --> 01:46:21.707
Phil: Yeah, you're making the Wind Waker argument, right?
01:46:21.727 --> 01:46:25.687
Phil: Which is basically, it's an artistic choice, therefore, it still looks good to this day.
01:46:26.087 --> 01:46:28.447
Phil: Which is a valid argument for Wind Waker.
01:46:29.207 --> 01:46:34.067
Phil: There is no reason why human beings should appear to be made of tin in Bioshock.
01:46:35.947 --> 01:46:38.987
Tom: But there's no reason that Link should be a cartoon either.
01:46:40.147 --> 01:46:42.687
Phil: Except for the fact that the entire world is a cartoon.
01:46:42.967 --> 01:46:51.307
Tom: But the entire world in Bioshock also follows the same tinny look and toy-like look as the characters.
01:46:51.467 --> 01:46:53.307
Phil: They're supposed to be humans, though.
01:46:53.707 --> 01:46:55.567
Phil: So they should look like humans.
01:46:55.587 --> 01:47:01.907
Tom: I believe, while Link is not technically a human, he is a human with elongated ears.
01:47:03.247 --> 01:47:05.447
Phil: Yeah, set that aside, right?
01:47:05.547 --> 01:47:15.567
Phil: Because this thing, I need to know what this is, because in Bioshock Infinite, all the NPCs move in robotic fashion.
01:47:17.307 --> 01:47:18.667
Phil: And so what are they saying?
01:47:18.747 --> 01:47:23.327
Phil: I mean, they clearly in Bioshock knew that these looked terrible, right?
01:47:23.567 --> 01:47:25.187
Phil: They all look like tin toys.
01:47:25.227 --> 01:47:27.787
Phil: They look like tin toys with enamel painting.
01:47:28.167 --> 01:47:30.187
Tom: And that's why they look awesome, not terrible.
01:47:30.207 --> 01:47:33.887
Phil: And is that, was that an artistic choice or was this completely clueless?
01:47:33.887 --> 01:47:44.827
Tom: No, I think that you don't have the same issue that you have in Infinite with the strange movements of the characters because of the way that the story is told, but we'll get to that in a minute.
01:47:44.847 --> 01:47:55.787
Tom: But as far as the visual concept, this is, I don't know, I don't see how you could think this was by accident because the entire world has the same consistency in design.
01:47:56.247 --> 01:48:39.647
Tom: The world, and it's not just in visual look as well, but the way the world is designed, and it's not necessarily to such a deep level that they're thinking we're going to make everything look like toys, but the architectural design of the areas, to me, basically followed the same sort of design of toy houses and the like, where you've got a certain general sort of architectural style you're attempting to replicate, and to do it in a sort of pseudo realistic way, but very miniaturized and very focused, where it then becomes completely different to what it's actually replicating, right?
01:48:40.287 --> 01:48:43.147
Phil: Well, this is exactly what one of my points from last year was.
01:48:43.167 --> 01:48:45.287
Phil: Number one, the level designs are painful.
01:48:45.647 --> 01:48:55.207
Phil: They look, they are like a small shopping mall, which isn't designed, a small shopping mall isn't designed to move you from place to place.
01:48:55.367 --> 01:48:59.287
Phil: It's designed to trap you in areas so that you spend money.
01:49:00.787 --> 01:49:06.667
Phil: These are the things that are horrible about Bioshock is that the characters look like tin robots.
01:49:06.807 --> 01:49:15.767
Phil: The levels are like in a dollhouse, rather, where no design is, it's not designed for traffic flow.
01:49:15.787 --> 01:49:20.207
Phil: It's basically designed because, well, you're in this room and you like this room, we're going to play in this room.
01:49:20.607 --> 01:49:22.987
Phil: If you need to go to another room, then you will figure it out.
01:49:24.127 --> 01:49:32.147
Phil: There's not a flow as there is an architecture where, okay, there's a system set up to freely move you from one point to the next.
01:49:32.647 --> 01:49:46.227
Phil: Now, you say this is deliberate, it has to be deliberate because it's so bad that no one playing this game could say, you really sold on this tin stuff, right?
01:49:46.447 --> 01:49:48.607
Phil: You know this looks like shit, right?
01:49:48.707 --> 01:49:49.887
Phil: You know this looks like shit.
01:49:51.147 --> 01:49:57.867
Tom: It's not just that, it's also consistent because this is in, it has to be deliberate also because of the extreme consistency.
01:49:57.887 --> 01:50:02.427
Tom: It's not like these are mistakes they're making even with reasonable regularity.
01:50:02.447 --> 01:50:05.407
Tom: It's throughout the entire game, every aspect of it.
01:50:05.847 --> 01:50:07.507
Phil: So it has to be an artistic choice.
01:50:08.507 --> 01:50:12.327
Tom: And it's one that I appreciate and you obviously despise.
01:50:12.347 --> 01:50:18.427
Tom: So we disagree there, but it's not even just in the architectural design and visual design.
01:50:18.447 --> 01:50:27.007
Tom: It's also in the design of the plot and also of the dialogue and the way that the story is told.
01:50:27.207 --> 01:50:35.487
Tom: One of the interesting things about the way that the story is told is which buys perfectly into the dollhouse design.
01:50:35.727 --> 01:50:49.247
Tom: Of course, another interesting thing about dollhouse is exactly what you said where you move there are these certain rooms that you basically get trapped in and there's no logic or design to the connection between these areas.
01:50:50.687 --> 01:50:56.927
Tom: This is not just in the general geography of the game, it's also in the storytelling itself.
01:50:56.987 --> 01:51:05.467
Tom: So while you might be listening to the people talking to you as you're going along, you're then going to be trapped in a room as a story scene plays out.
01:51:07.447 --> 01:51:19.847
Tom: So it's also in the storytelling as well, and I can easily see if this did not appeal to you, I do not understand how you could give this game a 9 out of 10.
01:51:21.287 --> 01:51:26.747
Phil: I don't see how I could give this game a 6 out of 10 in remembering it.
01:51:26.767 --> 01:51:38.187
Phil: The story was terrible, the level design was terrible, the combat was terrible, the visual style was terrible, the AI of the NPCs was terrible, they're all just runners.
01:51:38.647 --> 01:51:40.987
Phil: They basically see you and then run up to you.
01:51:42.387 --> 01:51:47.947
Tom: I don't know, once again, this to me creates an excellent aesthetic overall.
01:51:48.947 --> 01:52:01.107
Tom: In the dialogue, which is, by the way, one of the best pastiches in gaming, which is not to say that it's a particularly great pastiche, but by gaming standards, it's one of the best.
01:52:02.027 --> 01:52:17.867
Tom: They're basically copying just general pulp dialogue from, say, 1940s up to the 1960s, and they do a reasonable job of it.
01:52:17.947 --> 01:52:34.987
Tom: Also, not just starting the dialogue, but the voice acting is so ridiculously ham-fisted and over-the-top, which it should be because it's copying radio-style drama voice acting from once again the same time period to the 40s and the 60s.
01:52:35.187 --> 01:52:47.927
Tom: But the reason that it is so excellent as a pastiche and far above any game that I can think of as far as literally just doing a pastiche is concerned is because it doesn't just do the 60s.
01:52:47.947 --> 01:53:08.207
Tom: While it is clearly based in and around 1960, the pastiche as all of the best pastiches do looks beyond the exact time period the pastiche is copying and takes on elements from the culture, from cultural styles leading up to the time period in question.
01:53:08.427 --> 01:53:24.747
Tom: Because of course if you want to create a more authentic and believable representation of any time period, you can't just say okay, let's just copy whatever came out in 1960.
01:53:24.967 --> 01:53:29.027
Tom: Because what came out in 1960 was just a small part of 1960.
01:53:29.047 --> 01:53:42.047
Tom: You've got to look back to what was fashionable or not even fashionable, what was around in 1960 from older eras and what was going out in 1960 that was therefore uncool and all that sort of stuff.
01:53:42.087 --> 01:53:53.947
Tom: And this copies enough stuff from pre-1960s to be a much more complex and successful pastiche than the vast majority of attempts of pastiche in video gaming.
01:53:55.187 --> 01:54:02.327
Phil: I disagree entirely because even by its chronology, it does indeed take place in 1960.
01:54:02.747 --> 01:54:13.667
Phil: However, this is a place that is locked in the 1930s, which is why you have the Art Deco stylings and everything else, the libertarian garbage.
01:54:14.307 --> 01:54:21.567
Phil: And I don't mean that as a commentary on current libertarian politics because I am apolitical for this podcast.
01:54:22.167 --> 01:54:31.927
Phil: But what I'm saying is the over-the-top and rand philosophy or philosophizing that goes on in this game is ridiculous.
01:54:32.847 --> 01:54:35.467
Phil: I'm not making a comment on the political philosophy itself.
01:54:35.767 --> 01:54:37.587
Phil: So is that apologetic enough, do you think?
01:54:37.867 --> 01:54:38.167
Tom: No.
01:54:38.847 --> 01:54:39.727
Phil: Okay, so...
01:54:39.947 --> 01:54:42.607
Tom: We need another few minutes of you saying that.
01:54:43.107 --> 01:54:52.247
Phil: So basically what I'm saying is, yes, your point is correct, but I don't think it applies to this game because the setting is a time capsule.
01:54:52.867 --> 01:54:55.407
Phil: It's something that has been separated away from the world.
01:54:55.887 --> 01:55:01.107
Phil: So even though it takes place in 1960, I never actually thought about that while I was playing the game.
01:55:01.147 --> 01:55:06.307
Phil: I always just pictured myself as being in 1930s Chicago kind of thing.
01:55:07.147 --> 01:55:19.747
Tom: Well, no, I think you can't look at it that way because it is going in over 30 years, even if it is stuck in 1930, the society is going to and culture there is going to progress.
01:55:19.967 --> 01:55:31.007
Tom: And obviously, of course, they didn't come up with their own progression, which is of course a problem, but it's still an excellent 1960s prestige for those reasons.
01:55:31.027 --> 01:55:35.447
Tom: And I think you do need to get anything out of this game.
01:55:35.487 --> 01:55:41.207
Tom: And I would say probably any Ken Levine games is you need to ignore its intentions.
01:55:42.127 --> 01:55:56.367
Tom: And because, as you said, it's in all its hype, it was presented as the Ayn Rand stuff being some and all the press that got all the praise, it was presented as being some amazing philosophical statement, right?
01:55:56.987 --> 01:55:57.307
Phil: Right.
01:55:57.667 --> 01:55:59.047
Tom: That's completely out of bullshit.
01:55:59.067 --> 01:56:01.467
Tom: It's not even over the top Ayn Rand criticism.
01:56:01.927 --> 01:56:12.227
Tom: It's got nothing whatsoever to do with anything closely related to any philosophical stance whatsoever.
01:56:12.307 --> 01:56:26.467
Tom: There is, and it's not even, and presumably they meant to treat it in a better, more complex way, but it is so ridiculously absurd and over the top that it doesn't come through whatsoever.
01:56:26.687 --> 01:56:28.167
Tom: What happened in society?
01:56:28.487 --> 01:56:34.547
Tom: Someone had a pretty awesome idea, went off and built this amazing thing, but oh shit, drugs ruin the society.
01:56:35.107 --> 01:56:37.767
Tom: What the fuck does that have to do with the philosophy?
01:56:37.787 --> 01:56:44.847
Tom: If this had been a totalitarianism or communist society, what the fuck were they going to do when Adam came around differently?
01:56:45.387 --> 01:56:50.227
Phil: In this game, the libertarian philosophy is expressed only in placard form, right?
01:56:50.247 --> 01:56:57.107
Phil: It's only these broadly painted quotes that you see up in the wall, or you hear Rand talk about, right?
01:56:58.107 --> 01:56:59.167
Phil: In the script.
01:56:59.487 --> 01:57:04.287
Phil: But the actual game itself has nothing to do with libertarianism.
01:57:04.307 --> 01:57:05.107
Phil: You're absolutely right.
01:57:08.827 --> 01:57:11.207
Phil: I mean, I'd have to go back and look at some of the art for that.
01:57:11.367 --> 01:57:23.127
Phil: But your larger point is absolutely correct in that, in a libertarian society, you would have a complete legalization of drugs, right?
01:57:23.147 --> 01:57:32.447
Phil: So, if this game were truly putting together a libertarian philosophy, the very last thing that they'd be projecting was that the society was ripped apart by drugs.
01:57:32.807 --> 01:57:36.767
Tom: Well, they do actually, and I think this is possibly a large misinterpretation.
01:57:36.787 --> 01:57:43.727
Tom: I assume this is due to you not having played the game in a year, but it is not a libertarian game.
01:57:43.747 --> 01:57:48.087
Tom: It is a criticism of libertarianism rather than pro-libertarianism.
01:57:48.547 --> 01:57:56.767
Phil: Right, but what I'm saying is, as it is widely reviewed and thought of, they're like, oh, these guys are pro-libertarian.
01:57:56.827 --> 01:57:57.127
Tom: What?
01:57:57.147 --> 01:57:57.867
Tom: Are you serious?
01:57:58.487 --> 01:57:58.907
Tom: Yes!
01:57:59.007 --> 01:57:59.347
Phil: What?
01:57:59.927 --> 01:58:08.547
Phil: And Bioshock 2 was supposed to be a reaction to that, to show that, oh, well, you know, other forms of politics are also great.
01:58:08.547 --> 01:58:10.407
Phil: And I forget what the criticism of Bioshock 2 was.
01:58:10.427 --> 01:58:11.667
Tom: Who the fuck came up with this?
01:58:12.627 --> 01:58:15.247
Phil: I think Brennan Sinclair from gamespot.com.
01:58:16.967 --> 01:58:17.867
Phil: This is mind-blowing.
01:58:17.887 --> 01:58:21.967
Phil: If you listen to the Bioshock 2 podcast they did a couple of years ago.
01:58:21.987 --> 01:58:24.147
Phil: Yeah, go ahead.
01:58:25.747 --> 01:58:28.267
Tom: Yeah, I do not believe that.
01:58:28.287 --> 01:58:28.627
Phil: Sorry.
01:58:28.647 --> 01:58:29.687
Tom: That is incredible.
01:58:30.047 --> 01:58:32.707
Phil: You asked for a direct citation and I gave it to you.
01:58:32.727 --> 01:58:33.567
Tom: That is unbelievable.
01:58:33.587 --> 01:58:43.027
Tom: And the thing is they attempt to do that whole thing with the drugs because, of course, the whole thing is, Adam, let them do whatever the fuck they want and be so amazing.
01:58:43.267 --> 01:58:48.347
Tom: But this, of course, led to this whole collapse of society and all this sort of rubbish.
01:58:48.367 --> 01:58:58.527
Tom: But the way it's presented is that it didn't crumble and get fucked up because of libertarianism, gave these people too much freedom.
01:58:58.727 --> 01:59:08.907
Tom: It got so fucked up because Adam was addictive and or at least gaining power through Adam was addictive and so society got fucked.
01:59:08.927 --> 01:59:23.767
Tom: But the problem with this is if you're going to use drugs as your major point to criticize a philosophy, what the fuck do they think is going to happen in a different type of society?
01:59:24.007 --> 01:59:30.687
Tom: It's an even stupider example because what are the countries that have the worst fucking problem with drugs?
01:59:31.107 --> 01:59:33.907
Tom: The countries that try to police it the most.
01:59:34.187 --> 01:59:36.807
Tom: What are the countries that have the least problem with drugs?
01:59:36.827 --> 01:59:41.067
Tom: It's the countries that police the least.
01:59:41.067 --> 01:59:55.547
Tom: That's not including countries that are already of a low economic standing or have poverty or other problems, which is why, of course, using Somalia as an example of libertarianism is somewhat disingenuous due to the other societal problems.
01:59:56.287 --> 02:00:00.387
Phil: Well, all I'm saying is Somalia is the only example we have of a country without a government.
02:00:00.407 --> 02:00:03.747
Tom: Okay, I see what you're saying.
02:00:03.967 --> 02:00:06.147
Phil: It's not a libertarian government, absolutely not.
02:00:06.207 --> 02:00:07.047
Phil: It's no government.
02:00:07.067 --> 02:00:07.207
Tom: Yeah.
02:00:07.727 --> 02:00:12.367
Phil: And so I was being slightly sardonic and perhaps exaggerating the point, stretching the point to say that...
02:00:12.427 --> 02:00:12.687
Phil: to be continued...
02:00:12.707 --> 02:00:20.507
Phil: That would be a Libertarian Paradise because, yeah, obviously, a true Libertarian Paradise would be closer to Washington state in the United States.
02:00:21.427 --> 02:00:24.847
Phil: To the story, have we touched on the story at all yet?
02:00:25.007 --> 02:00:43.887
Tom: I don't know, but we may as well touch on the story now, and once again, I cannot put this in another way, but it is once again an excellent piece of pastiche because it buys into various fictions of the times and the themes involved in them.
02:00:43.907 --> 02:01:10.307
Tom: So, for example, the politician that is very involved with the people of, with Joe Publick going around in direct rallying and all that sort of stuff, which is basically gone out of modern politics within the same sort of context because, of course, at least in America, as far as I'm aware, of course, you're pretty much far more knowledgeable than I am on American politics, so correct me if I'm wrong in any area.
02:01:10.987 --> 02:01:25.047
Tom: But that aspect of it's gone and it's now more the same sort of lobbying that would have been done to get votes of the lower classes is now more about business lobbying with the upper classes.
02:01:25.067 --> 02:01:46.467
Tom: And, of course, you do get these massive political rallies with everyone, but they're in a different sort of context as opposed to ones of the time where it was more a more direct exchange between the lower classes and the politicians involved, which is not to say that it was to their benefit, but it was a more direct sort of campaigning.
02:01:47.827 --> 02:01:56.267
Tom: Yeah, well, the other reason for doing it in the time period of Bioshock, which would be from the 1930s onwards, would be, of course, just coming out of the Depression.
02:01:56.967 --> 02:02:08.607
Tom: There's not going to be enough votes from the upper class because it would be so diminished, so they would have to be going after the lower middle classes, well, anyway, simply to secure a large amount of votes.
02:02:09.247 --> 02:02:09.787
Phil: Right.
02:02:09.807 --> 02:02:24.467
Phil: Well, coming out of the Depression, particularly in the United States, I mean, there was a real fear that at that time, it's difficult for us to think of here in the 21st century, but at that time, communism was a viable political platform for the West.
02:02:24.907 --> 02:02:35.827
Phil: And so having seen the greatest failure of capitalism, the Great Depression, there was a real concern amongst the status quo that the people might turn to communism.
02:02:36.627 --> 02:02:42.867
Phil: And you can quite imagine it if you had been a factory worker or a farmer, and, you know, farmers were also unionized back then.
02:02:43.807 --> 02:02:59.387
Phil: If you're a factory worker or a farmer and you've just gone through the Great Depression, which was brought about by market forces, something that has absolutely nothing to do with the physical world and how well you made a product or how hard you worked, right?
02:02:59.787 --> 02:03:01.347
Phil: Or you knew that you lost a job.
02:03:01.927 --> 02:03:05.087
Phil: And then if Joe Starlin comes along and says, yeah, capitalism, huh?
02:03:05.127 --> 02:03:07.267
Phil: Well, we gave that a good try, but it really sucks.
02:03:07.607 --> 02:03:08.827
Phil: Here's something you might like.
02:03:08.847 --> 02:03:09.787
Phil: It's called communism.
02:03:10.707 --> 02:03:12.647
Phil: And it all watered down socialism.
02:03:13.307 --> 02:03:15.607
Phil: So in the 30s, there was a real...
02:03:16.467 --> 02:03:22.747
Phil: It was basically a time where all bets were off in terms of what ideology was going to win.
02:03:23.167 --> 02:03:32.027
Phil: And that's where you have this Randian complex come up which you can totally see how in the 1930s, it could have gone either way.
02:03:32.647 --> 02:03:34.407
Phil: They could have stayed the course of capitalism.
02:03:34.427 --> 02:03:39.067
Phil: They could have flipped and gone to the communism cooperative effort.
02:03:39.867 --> 02:03:43.627
Phil: Or they could have gone in this Randian way, which is basically the strongest survive.
02:03:45.767 --> 02:03:54.347
Phil: Let's just minimize government, communism and capitalism and go for a streamlined government that basically is only in armed forces.
02:03:54.847 --> 02:04:01.327
Phil: So I think that basically sets the framework for the storytelling that Ken Levine does in Bioshock.
02:04:01.967 --> 02:04:10.487
Tom: As far as the actual plot not in terms of the politics, another excellent thing that it gets of the period is of course the...
02:04:11.347 --> 02:04:22.527
Tom: I probably said this already, but we need to go into it for another point on the story, is the confidence man or con artist, which of course is a huge cliche from around that time period.
02:04:22.787 --> 02:04:43.627
Tom: And you might think these are all obvious sorts of things, and they are, but the thing is when you look at pastiche in most games, they completely miss the stuff that was actually around in the time period that makes for a reasonable pastiche as far as other mediums will be concerned whatsoever.
02:04:43.647 --> 02:05:04.507
Tom: And it becomes much more either a parody of the era or a pastiche that gets it completely and utterly wrong, such as American Nightmares attempt to pastiche old American science fiction shows where they completely miss the essence of the aesthetics that they're attempting to copy.
02:05:04.527 --> 02:05:11.227
Tom: Whereas here, it's obviously extremely simple and minor stuff that they're getting right, but they are actually getting it right.
02:05:11.247 --> 02:05:23.107
Tom: And whether it's necessarily correct for the world they're attempting to create, given that it is a capsule, they're still following the correct way to achieve a pastiche.
02:05:23.727 --> 02:05:29.527
Tom: And it also comes out in the way that the story is told, rather how the plot unfolds.
02:05:29.547 --> 02:05:31.847
Tom: And this came out in 2007.
02:05:31.867 --> 02:05:33.167
Tom: I think we can do spoilers, right?
02:05:34.327 --> 02:05:35.727
Phil: If spoilers from this point on.
02:05:35.747 --> 02:05:37.507
Tom: Yeah, so you can just stick a warning in there.
02:05:37.907 --> 02:05:45.267
Tom: So the twist, if you can call it that, where you then find out that you are a...
02:05:46.467 --> 02:05:47.147
Tom: What's the term?
02:05:48.747 --> 02:05:52.407
Tom: There's a specific term for the type of hit notice, but I can't remember what it is right now.
02:05:52.827 --> 02:05:55.007
Tom: And I assume you can't either from your silence.
02:05:55.027 --> 02:06:09.447
Tom: But basically, Frank Fontaine, who is the con artist slash entrepreneur slash villain of the game, has sent you off to kill Andrew Ryan, aka Anne Rand, right?
02:06:10.167 --> 02:06:10.487
Phil: Right.
02:06:10.627 --> 02:06:26.487
Tom: So the reason this actually worked as far as the plot unfolding is, and something that you would find in a lot of pulp fiction of the time era, is it had so many jarring moments in the story that stood out as being utterly stupid.
02:06:26.707 --> 02:06:37.347
Tom: Like when you land, when you crash land and then you run in, it makes no sense whatsoever that the character would simply run down into Rapture immediately without thinking about it, right?
02:06:37.567 --> 02:06:38.047
Phil: That's right.
02:06:38.467 --> 02:06:39.727
Phil: I mean, the whole thing...
02:06:39.907 --> 02:06:41.807
Phil: I think what you're talking about is like suggestive...
02:06:42.767 --> 02:06:45.427
Phil: hypersuggestibility, right?
02:06:45.787 --> 02:06:55.267
Phil: And right from the get-go, the character is being basically manipulated through hypnosis.
02:06:56.567 --> 02:07:06.747
Tom: But anyway, so there's random moments where they do these things that are just mind-blowingly bad and stupid.
02:07:07.747 --> 02:07:19.007
Tom: As you would find in a pulp fiction story of the era, all is a lead-up for the reveal where, okay, this made no sense because it actually did make sense all along.
02:07:20.027 --> 02:07:28.627
Tom: And like it or hate it, it's once again really well done pastiche that is accurate, which is not to say that the storytelling is good.
02:07:28.647 --> 02:07:40.067
Tom: And I think the major failing in the story is the extreme grandiosity of what is depicted in the dialogue.
02:07:40.207 --> 02:08:05.587
Tom: I think the best example is when you come up to the surgeon, the first boss in the game, leading into it, there's been these hilarious long passionate speeches about creating asymmetrical faces, why two eyes, why not three, and all these hilarious, really schlocky but amusing random horror diatribes about performing ridiculous plastic surgery.
02:08:07.027 --> 02:08:09.947
Tom: Then you get to the guy and what is the scene?
02:08:10.067 --> 02:08:20.327
Tom: There's two women strung up on a bed that don't have like five eyes and two noses, they're just these dead people on a bed.
02:08:20.607 --> 02:08:33.067
Tom: So they've had this amazing, hilarious, that could have been really, really hilarious horror, if you can call it that, moment in the game.
02:08:33.367 --> 02:08:37.207
Tom: And then what you presented with is such a massive, stupid letdown.
02:08:37.627 --> 02:08:41.187
Phil: Yeah, I mean, the guy should have said, why two boobs?
02:08:41.187 --> 02:08:42.587
Phil: Why one vagina?
02:08:42.947 --> 02:08:44.627
Phil: Why not nine vaginas?
02:08:44.647 --> 02:08:47.267
Tom: And then you come up to this nine-vaginid woman.
02:08:47.847 --> 02:08:49.867
Phil: Why not a face full of vaginas?
02:08:49.907 --> 02:08:50.267
Tom: Yep.
02:08:51.487 --> 02:08:53.127
Phil: Why not eyes for vaginas?
02:08:54.867 --> 02:08:56.247
Phil: Yeah, exactly.
02:08:56.267 --> 02:08:57.747
Phil: And it's just a bunch of dead people.
02:08:57.767 --> 02:08:58.267
Tom: That's right.
02:08:58.507 --> 02:09:03.127
Tom: And I think that's a major problem with how the story is told.
02:09:03.607 --> 02:09:17.807
Tom: The dialogue and the voice acting is basically completely unrelated to what is then depicted in the narrative in the game itself throughout the entire thing.
02:09:17.887 --> 02:09:20.767
Tom: And so, for example, it's in every single point.
02:09:20.787 --> 02:09:23.567
Tom: It's the same with the artist as well.
02:09:23.587 --> 02:09:32.387
Tom: The artist has these, once again, ridiculously grandiose speeches about art and censorship and all this bullshit.
02:09:33.207 --> 02:09:40.807
Tom: Then all your interaction with him is, at one stage, he's got some bombs on a piano and you have to photograph some dead guys for him.
02:09:40.867 --> 02:09:45.547
Tom: It's just completely disparate to what is being described in the dialogue.
02:09:45.707 --> 02:09:52.387
Tom: So the characters that are presented in the dialogue are not the same as the characters that are presented in the game itself.
02:09:52.507 --> 02:09:55.367
Phil: Yeah, the game is completely unbalanced on every level.
02:09:55.687 --> 02:09:57.967
Phil: I would have to say that that's an extension of it.
02:09:58.387 --> 02:10:16.627
Tom: Now, the one other thing I wanted to say about the aesthetic, and this is actually a ridiculously hilarious anachronism, but it is anachronism, but it is found in absolutely every single modern thing produced which is completely bizarre.
02:10:16.947 --> 02:10:23.327
Tom: So, everyone in Rapture is these upper class Toffs from the 1930s, right?
02:10:24.687 --> 02:10:26.727
Phil: Yep, they're certainly privileged.
02:10:27.007 --> 02:10:28.667
Tom: What's the prevailing music in the game?
02:10:30.907 --> 02:10:34.227
Phil: Basically a lot of ragtime.
02:10:35.187 --> 02:10:40.547
Tom: Why the fuck would rich people from the 1930s be listening to ragtime?
02:10:42.707 --> 02:10:53.827
Tom: And at the very least, there should have been, just to make this possibly somewhat plausible, some posters of blackface bands playing this ragtime.
02:10:54.567 --> 02:10:57.067
Tom: That could have made any sense whatsoever.
02:10:57.587 --> 02:11:00.107
Phil: You mean like M&M or Vanilla Ice?
02:11:01.187 --> 02:11:01.827
Phil: No.
02:11:01.847 --> 02:11:10.627
Phil: I know that it's historically accurate to the era, the 1930s, to have this kind of music, but in this perfect world, yeah, they wouldn't have been listening to that.
02:11:10.647 --> 02:11:13.327
Phil: They would have been listening to white people music or classical music.
02:11:13.347 --> 02:11:15.087
Tom: It would have been classical, 100%.
02:11:15.387 --> 02:11:16.727
Tom: Yeah, you're right.
02:11:17.407 --> 02:11:17.907
Phil: You're right.
02:11:20.107 --> 02:11:27.387
Tom: So, that's probably enough about the aesthetic, and I think it's interesting that we basically do not actually disagree on anything, right?
02:11:27.407 --> 02:11:30.147
Tom: We just, you hate it and I like it, right?
02:11:30.747 --> 02:11:32.107
Tom: That's our point of contention.
02:11:32.647 --> 02:11:34.547
Phil: But we agree on the reality of it.
02:11:34.567 --> 02:11:35.407
Tom: That's right, yeah.
02:11:35.487 --> 02:11:38.727
Phil: We agree on the reality of it, and somehow you mistakenly like it.
02:11:38.747 --> 02:11:39.727
Tom: Yeah, or, yeah.
02:11:40.647 --> 02:11:55.187
Tom: But moving on to the gameplay, which is where the game has its major problems, let's begin with these so-called force powers, and that's what they are, and that is easily the greatest hook of the game.
02:11:55.207 --> 02:12:06.327
Tom: The fact that finally a game is doing Star Wars force powers right, even if it's not Star Wars, because Star Wars games themselves, as you said, generally fail to do them in any way.
02:12:06.347 --> 02:12:11.687
Tom: Interestingly, unless they're an RPG, in which case you're not really using them yourself anyway.
02:12:11.707 --> 02:12:12.907
Phil: Yeah, that's right.
02:12:12.927 --> 02:12:14.507
Phil: You're summoning a demon to do it.
02:12:14.587 --> 02:12:15.087
Tom: Exactly.
02:12:15.607 --> 02:12:16.267
Phil: Or a dragon.
02:12:16.287 --> 02:12:16.467
Tom: Yep.
02:12:17.307 --> 02:12:20.207
Phil: So do you think they do them right in this game?
02:12:20.727 --> 02:12:22.687
Tom: The answer to that is yes and no.
02:12:22.707 --> 02:12:36.047
Tom: There's one major problem with them, and that is at least when they're not fully upgraded, and even then, if you're using lightning versus ice, the reality of it is in terms of gameplay, there's not actually a great difference.
02:12:36.067 --> 02:12:46.067
Tom: All it does is, unless there's water involved, all it does is freeze the person in place, and then you can either shoot them or hit them with a wrench, and the ending is different.
02:12:46.267 --> 02:12:48.587
Tom: If they've been hit with ice, then they explode.
02:12:48.967 --> 02:12:55.127
Tom: If they've been hit with lightning, then they just fall onto the ground, flailing from the electricity.
02:12:55.747 --> 02:13:06.627
Tom: So, many of them, there's like three basic styles of powers, and then there's multiple ones that look different, but they're basically the same thing as well.
02:13:07.127 --> 02:13:19.847
Tom: And even the ones that are a different style, like say the bees aren't really the same as using the ice or the lightning, the effect of the gameplay is still once again the same because of how limited the AI in the fights are.
02:13:21.327 --> 02:13:33.447
Tom: So if you're using bees on people, they can still move around, they run around flailing instead of standing still, but the AI doesn't attempt to adapt to what you're doing in any way.
02:13:33.967 --> 02:13:38.267
Tom: So the reason they did this is probably to make it really sandboxy, right?
02:13:38.287 --> 02:13:44.527
Tom: So that you can basically wail on these people with a large amount of powers and just go completely crazy.
02:13:45.167 --> 02:13:56.067
Tom: The problem with that is you can't get a great flow to your use of weapons and the powers because you've got to manually switch between your weapons and your powers.
02:13:56.087 --> 02:14:02.267
Tom: It's not like you can click left click to use a power and right click to use a gun or vice versa.
02:14:02.287 --> 02:14:10.847
Tom: You've got to be manually changing between them which results in the combat being slower than it should for you to be able to build up an interesting number of combos.
02:14:10.927 --> 02:14:17.627
Tom: And even on hard, except for the big daddies, the enemies don't have enough health for you to do this either.
02:14:17.647 --> 02:14:26.567
Tom: So you can maybe use two or three combinations of weapon and power at the absolute most before they're dead.
02:14:27.127 --> 02:14:31.067
Tom: So it appears that they've...
02:14:31.407 --> 02:14:32.807
Tom: And it's also in the areas as well.
02:14:32.827 --> 02:14:52.107
Tom: They've designed the areas generally so that they're quite open and so that you and the enemies can move around completely unhindered by having to run behind cover or navigate through some annoying pathway so that you can easily put together these start, these different combinations of powers and the like.
02:14:52.627 --> 02:15:03.747
Tom: But once again, because of the similarity between many of them and because of the lack of health on the enemies, you never really get to do...
02:15:06.367 --> 02:15:10.887
Tom: You experience enough variety for this to stay interesting over the full length of the game.
02:15:10.927 --> 02:15:17.527
Tom: After a while, it becomes incredibly repetitive because they don't even give you any new enemy types.
02:15:17.547 --> 02:15:18.367
Tom: They give you the same...
02:15:18.867 --> 02:15:25.327
Tom: After about maybe a third of the way into the game, you've seen every single enemy, and all they do is make them tougher in certain areas.
02:15:26.107 --> 02:15:30.847
Phil: I was going to save this for a Bioshock Infinite review, but I'll say it here now.
02:15:32.627 --> 02:15:34.947
Phil: The Force powers are...
02:15:35.747 --> 02:15:45.787
Phil: It's amazing that you said that, what you said, because I had written in my notes that the Force powers are basically just a color palette swap.
02:15:45.807 --> 02:15:46.827
Phil: If they're fire, they're red.
02:15:46.847 --> 02:15:48.027
Phil: If they're electricity, they're blue.
02:15:48.047 --> 02:15:49.267
Phil: If they're ice, they're blue.
02:15:49.367 --> 02:15:52.007
Phil: But essentially, they're just doing the same thing.
02:15:52.027 --> 02:15:55.507
Phil: And guess why the Force powers work in Bioshock?
02:15:56.107 --> 02:15:57.527
Phil: Because they're the grenade.
02:15:57.987 --> 02:16:04.687
Phil: There are no grenades in this game, and the reason why they work is basically because they plant the Force powers on the grenade button.
02:16:05.307 --> 02:16:07.647
Phil: And we all know how to use grenades, so guess what?
02:16:07.687 --> 02:16:08.187
Phil: It works.
02:16:08.187 --> 02:16:18.447
Phil: And they're basically as limited as grenades would be in terms of the gameplay pacing, as the Forces are as limited as grenades would usually be.
02:16:18.467 --> 02:16:21.067
Phil: You don't ever have an unlimited use of grenades, and guess what?
02:16:21.267 --> 02:16:22.987
Phil: You don't have an unlimited use of the Force powers.
02:16:23.007 --> 02:16:29.227
Tom: I would say you do generally have much more use of the Force powers than grenades, but it is a limited...
02:16:30.447 --> 02:16:33.507
Phil: It is limited, and it varies from game to game.
02:16:35.367 --> 02:16:41.887
Phil: But certainly, when it comes down to it, these Forces are nothing more than grenades.
02:16:42.007 --> 02:16:43.347
Tom: Yeah.
02:16:44.087 --> 02:17:00.327
Tom: And the color swapping also actually applies to the weapons, which is more of a problem than with the Force powers, because grenades, you don't need as much variety in them, but at least after you've upgraded them, there's basically no difference between using the pistol and the machine gun, for example.
02:17:00.347 --> 02:17:01.987
Tom: No, or the shotgun with the machine.
02:17:02.727 --> 02:17:06.287
Phil: After a time, you can shoot and kill someone with a shotgun at 30 feet.
02:17:07.247 --> 02:17:08.227
Tom: It's absurd.
02:17:08.247 --> 02:17:09.747
Tom: And it once again makes...
02:17:09.767 --> 02:17:14.167
Tom: It means there's absolutely no depth in the combat whatsoever.
02:17:14.187 --> 02:17:24.947
Tom: So the only appeal is the visual enjoyment of using the Force powers, because it is cool freezing someone, then hitting them with the wrench until they explode, right?
02:17:25.607 --> 02:17:25.967
Phil: Yeah.
02:17:26.047 --> 02:17:26.567
Phil: That's cool.
02:17:26.587 --> 02:17:26.767
Tom: Yeah.
02:17:27.127 --> 02:17:31.747
Tom: And that's the only appeal of the combat, which wears thin very, very quickly.
02:17:31.987 --> 02:17:49.347
Tom: And the other major problem is, I think the big daddies completely fucked them over, because if they didn't have big daddies in this game, they would have surely come up with at least better bosses than the really terrible bosses that they have and more variety in enemies.
02:17:49.347 --> 02:17:50.967
Tom: And there's only one...
02:17:51.487 --> 02:17:57.387
Phil: Well, they don't have big daddies in Infinite, and they don't replace them with bosses.
02:17:57.587 --> 02:18:04.307
Tom: Well, no, they do have, but in Infinite, they've got two or three tough enemies that come around.
02:18:04.327 --> 02:18:05.687
Phil: Like the George Washington robot.
02:18:05.707 --> 02:18:07.047
Tom: Which is more than in Bioshock.
02:18:08.447 --> 02:18:15.867
Tom: But with the big daddies, there's only one fight in the game against the big daddy that is at all interesting.
02:18:16.027 --> 02:18:18.047
Tom: And that is the first fight against the big daddy.
02:18:18.427 --> 02:18:20.887
Tom: And the reason for that is, look at the design of that level.
02:18:21.847 --> 02:18:29.967
Tom: It's basically kind of like a racing course with the track going around a middle area where you can't move.
02:18:30.487 --> 02:18:35.707
Tom: And what's the major strength of the big daddy that sets them apart from the other enemies in the game?
02:18:36.087 --> 02:18:37.487
Tom: That is their charging ability.
02:18:37.647 --> 02:18:40.227
Tom: Why does that then make that fight so much more intense?
02:18:40.247 --> 02:18:47.027
Tom: It's because the area is so narrow that you've got to be really on your guard to avoid it, and you've got to be paying attention to what they're doing.
02:18:47.447 --> 02:19:02.687
Tom: Whereas in every other big daddy fight, because they've not designed the other areas for the big daddy, because they just wander around the game all over the place, the charge becomes no harder to avoid than the shooting.
02:19:02.707 --> 02:19:11.647
Tom: So you're basically just strafing sideways around these enemies with a large amount of health that are otherwise basically no different to the other enemies you're fighting.
02:19:12.967 --> 02:19:25.047
Tom: So once again, they don't manage to fill the void that they should be of giving the players something more intense and a bigger challenge to come up against.
02:19:25.067 --> 02:19:34.047
Tom: And I think they're probably even less interesting to fight than the other enemies in terms of using force powers because they have so much health.
02:19:34.067 --> 02:19:34.927
Tom: They get boring.
02:19:35.307 --> 02:19:41.907
Tom: Even if you can finally use a reasonable amount of combos against them, they take like a minute or two to kill.
02:19:42.567 --> 02:19:45.507
Tom: After a minute, who the fuck cares, right?
02:19:46.127 --> 02:19:48.367
Phil: Yeah, I agree, absolutely.
02:19:48.467 --> 02:19:51.487
Phil: And also, what did you do with the little sisters?
02:19:51.507 --> 02:19:53.547
Phil: Did you harvest them?
02:19:53.547 --> 02:19:55.667
Phil: What's the option besides harvesting them?
02:19:55.967 --> 02:19:58.387
Tom: Well, you don't have to actually interfere with them at all.
02:19:58.647 --> 02:20:00.987
Tom: You can just let the big daddies wander around with them.
02:20:01.527 --> 02:20:05.087
Tom: That's the only other option, and then you can just either harvest them or not.
02:20:05.107 --> 02:20:06.307
Tom: I chose not to harvest them.
02:20:07.067 --> 02:20:07.407
Phil: Why?
02:20:08.407 --> 02:20:12.627
Tom: It's the canon thing to do, I would say, 100%.
02:20:12.687 --> 02:20:16.047
Tom: Because the protagonist in the game is not actually you.
02:20:16.067 --> 02:20:18.427
Tom: The protagonist in the game is Tanenbaum.
02:20:18.447 --> 02:20:27.207
Tom: The plot is entirely about her redemption, not your own characters getting a family or whatever utterly stupid ending it comes up with.
02:20:27.547 --> 02:20:44.767
Tom: The whole plot is designed around Tanenbaum's redemption and obviously her convincing the hypnotized guy to save the little sisters is far more canon than him following Fontaine's instructions to harvest them.
02:20:46.387 --> 02:20:57.247
Phil: No, okay, that's good, that's good, because I've done similarly ethical or moral things in other games on the basis of the character, like John Marston in Red Dead Redemption.
02:20:57.267 --> 02:21:00.767
Phil: There were things that I did not do in that game because it did not befit the character.
02:21:01.647 --> 02:21:04.467
Phil: I did not care about Bioshock or the character.
02:21:04.587 --> 02:21:12.847
Phil: They gave me no reason to care about the character, so I harvested every little sister so I could get, you know, plasma juice.
02:21:13.607 --> 02:21:19.787
Phil: And as a result, I got the quote bad ending, but I don't think there's a good ending in this game.
02:21:19.807 --> 02:21:21.507
Tom: Definitely not.
02:21:21.587 --> 02:21:23.527
Phil: Certainly not as it relates to the final battle.
02:21:23.567 --> 02:21:23.907
Tom: Yeah.
02:21:24.507 --> 02:21:34.767
Tom: And the one last thing is, the other problem with the design of the game is not just the combat that becomes extremely repetitive and shallow.
02:21:35.287 --> 02:21:46.507
Tom: It's also, the game is basically, the main focus in what it's getting you to do is 90% of the time fetch quests.
02:21:46.907 --> 02:21:55.327
Tom: At the end, I know the end of the game got a huge amount of criticism because it's a long fetch quest followed by an escort mission, but the entire game is that.
02:21:55.447 --> 02:22:06.887
Tom: The ending, the only reason that was more annoying than the rest of the game, and I found it less annoying because at least fetching stuff, actually older stuff, you were putting on a big daddy suit, so there was some sort of visual change.
02:22:08.507 --> 02:22:12.407
Tom: But the rest of the game is completely constant fetch quest.
02:22:12.427 --> 02:22:15.087
Tom: Go here for this iron and bring it back to me.
02:22:15.107 --> 02:22:16.027
Tom: Go here and do that.
02:22:16.367 --> 02:22:24.307
Tom: It's incredibly simple and banal in the way it directs the player around.
02:22:25.047 --> 02:22:41.587
Tom: Once again, perhaps the reason for that was to put a focus on the sandboxy type of combat, but that's not really how the combat ended up being, so it just feels incredibly chore-like, having to wander back and forth with items and all that sort of bullshit.
02:22:43.087 --> 02:22:45.727
Phil: I've heard the same criticisms and not related with them.
02:22:46.547 --> 02:22:52.427
Phil: My only problem with the ending was just the horrible boss battle at the end, followed by the horrible cutscene at the end.
02:22:52.867 --> 02:22:54.647
Tom: What was your problem with the boss battle?
02:22:55.887 --> 02:22:57.987
Phil: It just was really video gamey.
02:22:58.767 --> 02:22:59.847
Tom: The whole game was?
02:23:00.407 --> 02:23:01.747
Phil: Yeah, but this was like...
02:23:02.987 --> 02:23:08.547
Phil: When you get to the end of this game, it has all these pretensions of being something greater than your typical video game.
02:23:08.887 --> 02:23:11.967
Phil: You expect something better than a typical video game ending.
02:23:12.787 --> 02:23:17.647
Phil: I didn't expect a Mario 64 ending to this game.
02:23:18.447 --> 02:23:19.487
Phil: It wasn't pleasurable.
02:23:19.587 --> 02:23:20.647
Phil: It was just tedious.
02:23:21.287 --> 02:23:25.527
Phil: Then they basically just have this cutscene voiceover that explains the whole thing.
02:23:26.187 --> 02:23:27.167
Phil: That's all, folks.
02:23:27.267 --> 02:23:27.687
Tom: I don't know.
02:23:27.707 --> 02:23:31.527
Tom: I didn't mind, but I didn't really go into it with any of those expectations.
02:23:31.847 --> 02:23:36.367
Phil: Well, yeah, I mean, it was really the worst letdown of the game.
02:23:36.387 --> 02:23:39.767
Phil: It's probably the second worst ending of a video game of this generation.
02:23:40.487 --> 02:23:41.527
Tom: I wouldn't say that at all.
02:23:41.607 --> 02:23:47.567
Tom: The other reason is, as far as the story is concerned, once again, the plot ends long before that.
02:23:47.587 --> 02:23:53.927
Tom: The plot basically ends when you get up to Fontaine.
02:23:54.207 --> 02:23:59.927
Tom: It basically ends when you meet Tenenbaum face to face.
02:24:01.567 --> 02:24:03.307
Tom: Everything in the story is being covered.
02:24:03.327 --> 02:24:13.007
Tom: The moral choices that the player could make has been solved there and therefore either Tenenbaum has been redeemed or not at that point in the game.
02:24:13.107 --> 02:24:16.927
Tom: That's the end of the entire arc of the plot.
02:24:17.607 --> 02:24:21.447
Tom: From that point onwards, I wasn't really expecting anything in the plot whatsoever.
02:24:21.467 --> 02:24:27.967
Tom: I didn't think that as far as the gameplay was concerned, the boss battle, that it was particularly bad.
02:24:27.987 --> 02:24:43.827
Tom: I thought it was probably the most interesting part of the game in terms of gameplay because it tied back to the first big daddy fight where there was some sort of tension and spontaneity to what the enemy was doing.
02:24:45.387 --> 02:24:47.027
Phil: Okay, I just remembered another ending.
02:24:47.047 --> 02:24:49.787
Phil: It's the third worst ending of a video game this generation.
02:24:50.147 --> 02:24:52.387
Phil: The worst was Crackdown, the second worst was...
02:24:52.527 --> 02:24:57.687
Phil: No, the worst was The Condute on the Wii, the second worst was Crackdown on the Xbox, the third was this game.
02:24:57.747 --> 02:25:05.327
Phil: Because as I remember the boss battle in this game, you're basically just running around, hiding behind a bunch of servers or closets.
02:25:07.187 --> 02:25:08.487
Phil: I mean, what is the end?
02:25:08.507 --> 02:25:10.587
Phil: What is the end boss battle in this game?
02:25:10.607 --> 02:25:12.627
Tom: I don't think there's anywhere to hide in it, actually.
02:25:13.167 --> 02:25:20.447
Phil: There were just long corridors, and it basically involved you recharging and then attacking him and then hiding and recharging and attacking him.
02:25:21.067 --> 02:25:22.507
Tom: I don't remember anywhere you could hide.
02:25:22.527 --> 02:25:24.707
Tom: It was in an open sort of area.
02:25:24.707 --> 02:25:28.967
Tom: Maybe there was a thing in the middle of the area that you ran behind, perhaps?
02:25:29.907 --> 02:25:34.147
Tom: But basically, you had to shoot him a certain amount, then he'd go back to recharge and you stabbed him.
02:25:35.507 --> 02:25:46.287
Tom: It wasn't amazing, but I do believe, I do feel that it was probably the second best fight in the game, as it was more of a challenge in the rest of the game, and he did something different.
02:25:46.307 --> 02:25:54.527
Tom: It didn't really do much different to The Big Daddy's, but it was like the ultimate version of The Big Daddy's in his behavior.
02:25:54.967 --> 02:26:08.067
Tom: But one really bizarre thing about it was the entire game, and I don't know if you played it with Vita Chambers on or off, I played it with on just to see what the hell they were like, the entire game up to that point had been with Vita Chambers, right?
02:26:08.087 --> 02:26:10.847
Tom: And when the game was released, you had to play with Vita Chambers.
02:26:11.087 --> 02:26:15.227
Tom: Suddenly when the boss battle begins, it announces, oh, by the way, there are no Vita Chambers.
02:26:15.247 --> 02:26:17.667
Tom: When you die, it's game over and you start the boss battle again.
02:26:19.867 --> 02:26:21.987
Tom: Is that not just completely fucking bizarre?
02:26:25.927 --> 02:26:30.647
Phil: Yeah, that's a bit of a let down.
02:26:30.827 --> 02:26:34.747
Phil: I played with the Vita Chambers because I was just trying to get through the game.
02:26:35.447 --> 02:26:37.787
Tom: I don't think you're likely to die even on hard.
02:26:37.807 --> 02:26:48.667
Tom: I was never really close to dying, but that just seems like a completely bizarre design to have this mechanic based around failure in the entire game up to that point.
02:26:48.667 --> 02:26:54.647
Tom: Then suddenly, just announce it on a loading screen, by the way, you can't save here.
02:26:54.667 --> 02:26:55.807
Tom: We're autosaving now.
02:26:55.987 --> 02:26:59.247
Tom: You can't save here, and there are no Vita Chambers anymore.
02:27:00.007 --> 02:27:01.767
Tom: It's just completely and utterly bizarre.
02:27:03.787 --> 02:27:05.287
Tom: That's the one thing we didn't discuss.
02:27:05.307 --> 02:27:06.687
Tom: What did you think of the Vita Chambers?
02:27:08.407 --> 02:27:11.387
Phil: I didn't die that much, so I didn't really care.
02:27:14.827 --> 02:27:16.167
Phil: They sent me back to the same level.
02:27:16.407 --> 02:27:21.167
Phil: It's basically they've inflicted them on Bioshock Infinite by default.
02:27:22.327 --> 02:27:23.387
Phil: Whatever, I don't care.
02:27:23.827 --> 02:27:41.787
Tom: I think with the way that the combat plays out, I didn't mind them because if I died in a battle, which was very, very rare, because it got so uninteresting after a certain point, I was perfectly happy to just go back in and cheaply kill everyone.
02:27:45.027 --> 02:27:46.947
Phil: And the checkpointing was generous enough.
02:27:47.547 --> 02:27:57.807
Tom: The final two things that are very quick that I want to comment on is, another fascinating thing about it, is the native aspect ratio of the game is 4 to 3, not 16 to 9.
02:27:58.347 --> 02:28:50.827
Tom: So if you're playing in widescreen, you actually have areas of the screen cut off as opposed to the other way around, as most games have, and I assume no one is going to agree with me whatsoever, but I actually, and this isn't just because I use a 4 to 3 monitor, I apply this to console games as well, which I play in 16 to 9, I think more games should actually use 4 to 3 aspect ratio on and off, because it actually completely alters how a perspective behaves and what sort of visual feeling the game is given, not just in terms of shot framing and all that sort of thing, but in first person perspective game, if you put a game to 4 to 3, it completely alters your perception of depth, peripheral vision and a whole range of things.
02:28:50.847 --> 02:29:05.407
Tom: And it can be used to create a unique feeling, which is unique now because all games use 16 to 9, but it can be used to create a different sort of look, which can actually suit certain games.
02:29:05.567 --> 02:29:13.087
Tom: For example, in Bioshock, it actually is beneficial for the game to be in 4 to 3 because of the melee combat.
02:29:14.127 --> 02:29:36.047
Tom: To me, anyway, melee is generally depth, more easily represented in first person in 4 to 3, because you can then be more focused on what is directly in front of you, whereas if you've got 16 to 9, it not only raises your peripheral vision, it also increases the field of view, which means you've got more focus on further depth and less focus close up to you.
02:29:36.607 --> 02:29:42.107
Phil: Yeah, it's much better for melee because in melee circumstances, your range of vision and peripheral vision is extremely limited.
02:29:43.247 --> 02:29:46.567
Phil: Okay, and you had some other points as well before we close out.
02:29:46.587 --> 02:29:48.507
Tom: Yeah, just a few minor things.
02:29:49.347 --> 02:29:51.847
Tom: And they both tie back to Spec Ops The Line.
02:29:52.547 --> 02:29:54.007
Tom: Funnily enough, the first is...
02:29:54.707 --> 02:30:18.287
Tom: Once again, the fact that the music is not just a generic orchestral score added so much to the enjoyment of the combat, at least early on when it hadn't become so repetitive, in the same way that the rock music makes the combat at certain times in Spec Ops The Line much more enjoyable than it actually is.
02:30:19.067 --> 02:30:24.627
Tom: Killing enemies to ragtime jazz is pretty awesome, I thought it was anyway.
02:30:25.207 --> 02:30:29.367
Phil: Yeah, I wouldn't know, because as usual I played it with the sound off.
02:30:30.347 --> 02:30:45.127
Tom: The second point that ties back to Spec Ops The Line is another thing that Bioshock does extremely well is its depiction of Art Deco and the other game that springs immediately to mind in recent memory that also depicted Art Deco is Spec Ops The Line.
02:30:45.147 --> 02:31:09.887
Tom: The reason, once again, and another point that you may be outraged by, the reason that it represents Art Deco better than most representations, also not in games, is the extremely cartoony and toy-like look of the game, whereas in Spec Ops The Line, they have a much more realistic look and they therefore attempt to represent Art Deco more accurately.
02:31:10.067 --> 02:31:11.207
Tom: What does this result in?
02:31:11.487 --> 02:31:29.467
Tom: Gaudy, and of course Art Deco itself is incredibly gaudy in its own way, but really inaccurate, just stupid, bad representations of Art Deco that don't really capture the feeling of Art Deco, but also aren't an accurate technical representation of it either.
02:31:30.187 --> 02:32:02.767
Tom: And because they're not an accurate technical representation, the fact that they don't capture the feel of Art Deco becomes much more ridiculously obvious and annoying, and it becomes this incredibly stupid bad knockoff that just demonstrates the low level of art design and lack of expertise, which is not to say that the people involved in this show aren't good art designers, but their area of expertise is not in attempting to represent that area of the art world.
02:32:03.227 --> 02:32:20.707
Tom: Whereas if you then represent Art Deco as it is in Bioshock in a much more stylized way so that it becomes a different sort of thing and part of the overall aesthetic of the game then become any flaws in the representation then do not matter so much.
02:32:21.467 --> 02:32:31.867
Phil: I've got to disagree on Spec Ops stuff, but basically in Spec Ops they were going for broad stylistic strokes and if you want to say the same thing about Bioshock then I'd be happy with that.
02:32:32.047 --> 02:32:34.687
Tom: I don't think they were going for broad stylistic.
02:32:34.707 --> 02:32:46.127
Tom: What I would say to let Spec Ops line off on that part is the general style that they were using there was deliberately that way.
02:32:46.147 --> 02:32:54.247
Tom: I don't think that they were all using broad strokes in the same way as Bioshock but they were deliberately making it a poor representation.
02:32:54.267 --> 02:32:55.427
Tom: So I'll give you that.
02:32:55.467 --> 02:32:56.007
Phil: Here's the deal.
02:32:56.027 --> 02:32:57.727
Phil: There's so much in Bioshock.
02:32:57.827 --> 02:32:58.867
Phil: I absolutely agree with you.
02:32:58.887 --> 02:33:04.787
Phil: I think the people in interviews back this up, the interviews for the Spec Ops guys, they knew exactly what they were doing on every level.
02:33:06.927 --> 02:33:13.867
Phil: In Bioshock, there are so many things that are subpar from a technical perspective, from an artistic understanding perspective.
02:33:15.007 --> 02:33:16.647
Phil: Could it all be earnest?
02:33:16.667 --> 02:33:18.207
Phil: Could it all be on purpose?
02:33:18.347 --> 02:33:24.267
Phil: Because so many people like this game, and I've always said that the only reason people like this game is because they're ignorant.
02:33:24.947 --> 02:33:30.367
Phil: This is probably the first time they're exposed to Ragtime, probably the first time they're exposed to Art Deco.
02:33:30.627 --> 02:33:39.647
Phil: So they see something and they're like, oh, this game was amazing, the world that it created, not knowing that, well, yeah, this actually existed in the real world about 100 years ago.
02:33:40.087 --> 02:33:42.327
Phil: You just weren't exposed to it until now.
02:33:43.707 --> 02:33:51.907
Phil: When you see this come along with popular music all the time, you see this come along with movies all the time, movies being remade, right?
02:33:52.707 --> 02:34:03.827
Phil: So if someone sees a movie that's been remade and has no knowledge of the original source material, they must think that, wow, this guy is a great director or that was a great script, right?
02:34:04.167 --> 02:34:06.367
Phil: Well, hey, it was based on something done before.
02:34:06.387 --> 02:34:09.387
Phil: Yeah, but they wouldn't have been as cool back then, right?
02:34:10.327 --> 02:34:16.447
Phil: So how much of this do you honestly attribute to them, like the robotic NPCs?
02:34:16.907 --> 02:34:18.347
Phil: That has to be on purpose.
02:34:18.987 --> 02:34:31.627
Tom: Well, the thing is, even though there is technically a lot of stuff that is subpar, I think the stuff that is subpar technically is more on the gameplay side of things rather than aesthetically.
02:34:31.627 --> 02:34:47.007
Tom: And the things that are technically subpar aesthetically, such as when you're looking out of Rapture and you see these just incredibly terrible depiction of the buildings from the outside that look like they're from a bad-looking PS2 game, right?
02:34:47.687 --> 02:34:48.227
Phil: Yes.
02:34:48.247 --> 02:34:59.307
Tom: Which, by the way, bizarrely, as far as I can remember, one of the most iconic scenes that everyone says was amazing in Bioshock is when you go in the bathysphere and you see Rapture underwater.
02:34:59.947 --> 02:35:00.287
Phil: Yeah.
02:35:00.307 --> 02:35:01.087
Tom: That looks like shit.
02:35:01.107 --> 02:35:02.607
Tom: And it looked like shit at the time.
02:35:03.047 --> 02:35:04.167
Phil: What are they talking about?
02:35:04.187 --> 02:35:04.367
Phil: What?
02:35:05.507 --> 02:35:06.407
Tom: They're insane.
02:35:07.527 --> 02:35:09.187
Phil: They're insane or we're insane, but...
02:35:09.207 --> 02:35:11.107
Tom: But certainly someone here is insane.
02:35:11.667 --> 02:35:12.527
Phil: And it's not us.
02:35:12.567 --> 02:35:12.747
Tom: No.
02:35:14.447 --> 02:35:25.907
Tom: I really do believe in Infinite and 2 drive this home to me so much because 2 leaves behind so much of the stuff I'm talking about here and Ken Levine isn't involved.
02:35:26.147 --> 02:35:28.007
Tom: Infinite brings so much of it back.
02:35:28.027 --> 02:35:31.967
Tom: I cannot possibly believe that it is not...
02:35:32.987 --> 02:35:33.447
Phil: Awesome.
02:35:33.447 --> 02:35:34.167
Tom: Deliberate.
02:35:34.267 --> 02:35:40.607
Tom: Or even if it's not deliberate, it's something wrong with him that is at least consistently wrong with him.
02:35:41.067 --> 02:35:45.647
Phil: So that is amazing because a lot of people say the same thing about Bioshock 2, right?
02:35:46.627 --> 02:35:50.087
Phil: That it's technically more proficient, but it's creatively limited, right?
02:35:50.347 --> 02:36:00.967
Phil: Well, obviously Ken Levine has this creativity in spades, but obviously from a technical gameplay, if Bioshock 2 improved on it and righted the wrongs, it was done by an entirely different studio for Take 2.
02:36:01.707 --> 02:36:15.267
Phil: And if all of those things return in Infinite, which is everything I'm almost done with Infinite, it's basically exactly the same, the same problems in Bioshock come up in Infinite.
02:36:15.947 --> 02:36:16.987
Phil: That's incredible.
02:36:17.367 --> 02:36:19.427
Phil: That really makes me want to play the second game now.
02:36:20.247 --> 02:36:25.887
Tom: The second game, well, you can wait for the review, but yeah, that's basically the bottom line with it.
02:36:27.167 --> 02:36:28.787
Phil: I'll go out and get it this week.
02:36:29.127 --> 02:36:31.867
Phil: Do you think that should be the next game I play then after Infinite?
02:36:32.467 --> 02:36:33.267
Tom: I'd say why not?
02:36:34.847 --> 02:36:35.307
Tom: Why not?
02:36:36.447 --> 02:36:37.847
Tom: And then we can do the reverse.
02:36:38.167 --> 02:36:41.567
Tom: You can discuss Two when I eventually get up to Infinite.
02:36:41.747 --> 02:36:43.667
Tom: You can discuss Infinite while I discuss Two.
02:36:43.687 --> 02:36:48.367
Tom: I think that's a fascinating thing.
02:36:48.747 --> 02:36:53.527
Tom: Even if you despise everything about his style, which you do, right?
02:36:54.287 --> 02:36:55.547
Phil: No, I don't.
02:36:55.587 --> 02:37:06.267
Phil: If it is his style, if this crazy robotic tin toy thing is his style with limited gameplay, then I think it's beyond him.
02:37:06.287 --> 02:37:11.387
Phil: I know he plays games, so I think it might have to do with his team.
02:37:11.487 --> 02:37:12.347
Phil: I just don't get it.
02:37:12.767 --> 02:37:13.387
Phil: I don't get it.
02:37:13.407 --> 02:37:13.687
Tom: Yeah.
02:37:14.107 --> 02:37:25.807
Tom: But what I'm saying is even though it's not for you, I think it deserves, even if you think it is complete and utter crap, it deserves some degree of respect for its extreme consistency.
02:37:25.827 --> 02:37:33.827
Tom: If I came into this hating everything about it, I would still think this is aesthetically quite an incredible achievement in many ways.
02:37:33.967 --> 02:37:37.927
Tom: Even if I basically despised everything about the aesthetic.
02:37:39.807 --> 02:37:40.467
Phil: Yeah, I agree.
02:37:41.527 --> 02:37:46.247
Tom: And so with all of that in mind, what's your prediction for my score?
02:37:47.267 --> 02:37:50.267
Phil: Well, I gave it a 9, amazingly.
02:37:50.287 --> 02:37:54.687
Tom: We are going to have to use that for our average score, combining both.
02:37:56.267 --> 02:37:59.287
Phil: I think you would give it a 4.5.
02:38:00.647 --> 02:38:05.207
Phil: No, no, wait, wait, you said you respected the choices, so I'm going to say a 5.5.
02:38:05.207 --> 02:38:06.947
Tom: I didn't even say I respected the choices.
02:38:06.967 --> 02:38:12.967
Tom: I think if you'll listen, Claire, carefully, I actually generally greatly enjoyed the aesthetic.
02:38:13.667 --> 02:38:14.907
Phil: Yeah, so 5.5.
02:38:15.167 --> 02:38:27.787
Tom: And the champ 4GX champ, or whatever the fuck he's called, the guy from the Goof Thru Yourself podcast, his prediction was 6 out of 10, and you were both wrong.
02:38:27.807 --> 02:38:32.147
Tom: Well, I am giving it a 7 out of 10, mind-blowingly.
02:38:33.847 --> 02:38:37.147
Phil: That is mind-blowing, and I don't know how you justify it.
02:38:37.167 --> 02:38:41.107
Tom: Well, I think you heard exactly why I justified it throughout the entire thing.
02:38:41.707 --> 02:38:44.087
Phil: That's true, we did just talk about it for an hour and a half, so...
02:38:44.107 --> 02:38:46.367
Tom: I think you know exactly how I justified it.
02:38:47.147 --> 02:38:50.607
Phil: So with that, we're going to end episode 14 of The Game Under Podcast.
Phil: Again, if you're listening this long into the podcast, we greatly appreciate it, and obviously you're telling friends, and continue to do so on Twitter and everything else because our listenership is going up, and we really, really appreciate it.
Phil: You can come to the site, we post on it periodically, you can read all of Tom's old reviews, gameunder.net.
Phil: Follow me on Twitter at GameUnderPhil, and yeah, thanks for listening to us on Stitcher and iTunes and all the rest of it.
Phil: We really appreciate it, we'll be back next week with some more game impressions.
Phil: So with that, I am Phil Fogg.
Tom: I'm Tom Towers.
Phil: And we have no creative outro thing, so...
Tom: We're no Ken Levine.
Phil: Go team.
Phil: Go team Game Under.
