Game Under Episode 14

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0:00:34 Introduction
0:01:12 Bioshock is Our New Overlord
0:01:49 Most Influential Game of the Generation?

Trademark Banter

0:05:04 PS4: To Pre-order, or not to pre-order, that is the question.
0:13:10 PS4 Launch Line-Up, Our Opinions.

Final Thoughts

0:16:09 Activision Hits Remixed (PSP)
0:17:54 How To Do a Collection Right
0:20:11 Best and Worst Collections in Gaming History (NB: Phil Forgets Super Mario All-Stars for SNES)

First Impressions

0:25:23 The Raven: Legacy of a Master Thief
0:43:26 Cinematics in Games

Final Thoughts

0:50:45 Killzone 3 (Spoilers Throughout)
First Impressions
1:04:05 Halo Combat Evolved (HD) 360

News

1:07:45 Ryan Davis is Dead
1:09:26 Dota 2 Is Out of Beta
1:09:31 GameStop is No Longer Taking PS4 Pre-Orders
1:10:44 Last of Us Sells 3.4 Million Copies
1:11:59 XBLA Summer of Arcade
1:12:30 Insomniac's New Ratchet and Clank
1:17:29 GTA5 Gameplay Footage Released (and why Rockstar is like Kanye West)
1:25:16 Nintendo Coming to Terms With HD Game Development (and Ubi's Comment on Zombie U 2)
1:32:05 Digital PS4 Games Accessible From Any Console
1:34:19 What Could Have Been: SEGA/Sony Buyout

Aural Review 
1:35:57 Bioshock (Spoilers)

Transcript

WEBVTT

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Tom: Hello, and welcome to Episode 14 of The Game under.net Podcast.

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Tom: I've been told under Knifepoint to say that it was a great selection of music for the introduction by my co-host, Phil Fogg.

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Phil: Hello, I'm Phil Fogg, and you're?

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Tom: Tom Towers, and today we will be discussing Killzone 3, the week's news, the Activision great collection on the PSP.

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Tom: That's right, a PSP game.

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Tom: And I will be orally or orally, whichever you prefer, reviewing Bioshock.

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Tom: Not Infinite, not even 2, but the original.

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Phil: A timely review.

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Phil: I think that game was released in 2007.

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Tom: Yep, so I'm only about 6 years late.

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Phil: In you playing through the entire series, right?

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Phil: Bioshock 1, 2 and 3.

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Phil: So you've beaten 1 and 2, right?

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Tom: Correct.

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Tom: And so that means over the next 2 weeks, you will be forced to listen to even more Bioshock, including everyone's favorite Bioshock 2.

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Phil: Well, as we go into the next generation of consoles, I think it's actually entertaining to look back.

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Phil: You played through the Uncharted franchise.

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Phil: We were able to talk about that.

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Phil: Now you're playing through Bioshock.

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Phil: I myself am about to beat Bioshock Infinite, so we'll have some good discussion about that in the coming weeks.

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Phil: You know, I mean, what other great franchise of this generation could we play?

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Phil: I guess if you had a 360 or access to it, we could play the Gears of War franchise.

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Tom: That would probably be the, probably the most seminal Xbox franchise this series, this generation, in terms of influence, wouldn't you say?

00:02:05.027 --> 00:02:06.867

Phil: Well, certainly because of the engine.

00:02:07.147 --> 00:02:16.967

Phil: And because it was, you know, or Epic was able to, you know, basically show this, you know, generation of developers, you know, what their engine was capable of.

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Phil: So it was influential in that respect.

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Tom: But I would say also in terms of gameplay, such as the cover system, not that I've played Gears of War, but that appears to be the case from the outside looking in.

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Phil: Oh, definitely.

00:02:29.607 --> 00:02:37.687

Phil: I mean, you can't play a game, a third person game these days without having cover shooting in it, which they got from Kill.Switch.

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Phil: And they actually, I mean, I went back and played Kill.Switch because that's what Blazinski, you know, credits as inspiring him for Gears of War, along with Resident Evil 4.

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Phil: And he's not wrong.

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Phil: I mean, it's right there in that game, that Japanese third person shooter.

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Phil: It's a little bit difficult.

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Phil: I was not able to finish the game, but it's there.

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Phil: I mean, it's not like some vague influence.

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Phil: You can directly see how it influenced it.

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Tom: So by influence, you mean plagiarized, I take it.

00:03:06.067 --> 00:03:07.947

Phil: Yes, stolen outright.

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Phil: But I think probably the most influential game of this generation would have to be Braid.

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Tom: Well, that's not an Xbox game though.

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Phil: Remember, it was an Xbox exclusive.

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Tom: Didn't stay that way though.

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Phil: No, but it was an Xbox exclusive for a very long time.

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Phil: And the reason why I say it was influential is not necessarily because of the gameplay or anything else, but it was one of the first breakout titles on Xbox Live Arcade that wasn't a remade game.

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Phil: Xbox Live Arcade to that point had been basically things like Robotron 2084 and 1942, a Capcom scroller and things like that.

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Phil: And what Braid demonstrated in Geometry Wars, and what Braid and Geometry Wars together shown was that you can have a, quote, full game, be a downloadable game and have critical and commercial success.

00:04:01.787 --> 00:04:09.487

Tom: I think culturally it was also very influential in how it set the tone for the discussion on indie games this generation.

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Tom: If there had been no Braid, you would not have seen such an extremely positive response to stuff like Journey as well.

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Phil: Or even Super Meat Boy.

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Tom: Yep, absolutely.

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Phil: And certainly Super Meat Boy owes a lot to games like Alien Hominid.

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Phil: But Alien Hominid was the PC game for a long time.

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Phil: Then it came out as a retail release on the Xbox.

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Phil: But people are seeing that they are able to come up with games that can be 2D, can be platformers, and can have commercial and critical success and acceptance.

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Phil: I think that opened the whole way for the Xbox Live arcade games that were to come, like Limbo and other games that people like.

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Phil: Then for PlayStation, that's basically become PlayStation's shtick, where the home for weird little indie games that you can download.

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Phil: And also the Vita, of course.

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Phil: I don't know how we got into that, but speaking of the PlayStation, I figured we'd have our trademark banter section just really quickly.

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Phil: I wanted to pre-order a PlayStation 4 this weekend.

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Phil: And as a part of that, I said, I don't want to do what I did last time.

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Phil: I don't want to have a console and nothing to play on it.

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Phil: So I was looking at the launch lineup for the PlayStation 4 to see if there's a single game there that I could justify buying a PlayStation 4 for.

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Phil: So I figured we'd play a little game, and you can play along at home as well.

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Phil: Basically, I've got an alphabetical listing of games available on launch, and just yes, no, and if yes, why.

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Phil: So would you like to play any of these games on the launch of the PlayStation 4?

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Tom: Or is the question, rather, would that justify buying a PlayStation 4?

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Phil: Well, here's the deal.

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Phil: I'm going to get a PlayStation 4, mostly for this show, so I can talk about it.

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Phil: But I can't talk about it unless I've got a game to play.

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Phil: Otherwise, we may as well do a furniture show.

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Phil: I'm going to get one before the price drop, so I may as well get it when it's relevant on the first day.

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Phil: And I have had extremely good luck with Sony hardware.

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Phil: I know everyone's probably groaning at home, but I tell you the truth.

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Phil: All of my original PlayStation 1s, 2s and 3s are still operating, unless they're playing The Last of Us.

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Phil: And so, yeah, why not get it on launch day?

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Phil: So here's the list.

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Phil: Yes, no, and if yes, why?

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Phil: Assassin's Creed 4?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No, for me, Battlefield 4?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No, for me, Call of Duty Ghosts?

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Tom: Yes, to hear about it, I would say, but not to play it.

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Phil: Yeah, I wouldn't, yeah, me, no.

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Phil: DC Universe Online?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: Diablo 3?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: Why would you play the GIMP version, right?

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Tom: Exactly.

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Phil: I mean, if you like Diablo, just play it on PC.

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Tom: Well, if, you are presumably right about the DMR, as they do not have them on PC version, so you could argue you are actually playing the superior version in some ways.

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Phil: Yeah, man.

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Phil: Insofar as consumer rights are concerned.

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Phil: Drive Club?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: FIFA 14?

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Tom: Wait a minute.

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Tom: You were a big fan of Motor Storm, right?

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Phil: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: In fact, I played it a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and I haven't reviewed it on this show.

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Phil: But basically, here's my micro review.

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Phil: Looks great, but it plays itself.

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Phil: I basically was just pushing forward and the accelerator the entire time.

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Phil: It had absolutely no challenge whatsoever.

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Phil: Yeah, FIFA 14.

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Tom: Once again, I would love to hear you talk about FIFA 14, but I wouldn't buy a console for it or be that interested in it as a launch game.

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Tom: My one question would be, is the latest PES title also available on launch for the PS4?

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Phil: No.

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Phil: No.

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Tom: Because there I would have been more interested as they are.

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Tom: Once again, their slow resurgence is continuing, and this could be their year.

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Tom: Yeah.

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Phil: Yeah.

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Phil: I would not get it because of Derek's whole theory about sports games at new console launches and that, you know, it's basically the worst version to get because they strip out features and slowly re-add them in.

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Tom: Yeah.

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Phil: Or, you know, so I wouldn't even if it was a sports game I liked, like an NBA game or something, but I would not.

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Phil: I'd probably get MLB the show actually.

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Phil: Just Dance, 2014.

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Tom: Once again, I would love to hear you talk about that game, but I wouldn't want to play it.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: No for me.

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Phil: Killzone Shadow 4.

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Tom: No for getting a console 4.

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Phil: Yeah.

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Phil: Here's my deal.

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Phil: I really enjoyed Killzone 2.

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Phil: I thought Killzone 2 was a very, very solid shooter in every regard.

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Phil: I'll give my final impressions on Killzone 3, but on the basis of that, I would not want the next Killzone.

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Phil: I would wait and see to see what they're doing with the next Killzone, to see if it's going to be Army of Two again or Back to Form.

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Tom: Yeah.

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Phil: And I'd be very skeptical.

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Phil: You got Mark Cerny's Knack game?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: Looks like a kid's game.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: Lego Marvel Super Heroes?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: Madden?

00:09:18.927 --> 00:09:19.167

Phil: No.

00:09:19.767 --> 00:09:20.007

Tom: No.

00:09:21.807 --> 00:09:24.707

Phil: NBA 2K14 and NBA Live 14?

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Tom: Two No's.

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Phil: Exactly.

00:09:28.027 --> 00:09:28.867

Phil: Skylanders?

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Tom: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: Something called Warframe?

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Tom: I don't know what that is.

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Phil: It's probably something you put around a wall to make it look better.

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Phil: I'm going to say no.

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Phil: And Watch Dogs?

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Phil: No.

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Phil: No.

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Phil: I have no interest in Watch Dogs.

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Phil: And people are probably screaming about that as well, and I'll just say I don't like Ubisoft games.

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Phil: Sorry.

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Tom: Well, I have an interest in it, but there's no way that is a console seller in any way, shape or form, especially considering it's coming to basically every console under the sun.

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Phil: Yeah.

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Phil: Yeah.

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Phil: Yeah.

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Phil: I think this is the one.

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Phil: Assassin's Creed, I think, is getting like an additional 46 minutes of content they're promoting or something like that.

00:10:06.607 --> 00:10:06.867

Tom: Yeah.

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Phil: I mean, I have as much interest in Watch Dogs as I would.

00:10:11.687 --> 00:10:14.827

Phil: It's kind of like one of those second tier games that I'd get used.

00:10:15.167 --> 00:10:15.407

Tom: Yeah.

00:10:15.847 --> 00:10:17.387

Phil: It's nothing I'd want to play.

00:10:17.587 --> 00:10:23.487

Phil: And why I don't like Ubisoft games, just so everyone knows, is I just don't like their games.

00:10:23.507 --> 00:10:25.587

Phil: I don't like Assassin's Creed.

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Phil: I don't like Prince of Persia after the first one.

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Phil: And I don't like...

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Phil: I like Splinter Cell, but I just also don't like their business practice of slamming every launch with a bunch of shovelware or catching on to a game that's good and then just milking it to death until everyone hates it, which is what they did with Prince of Persia, they did it with Splinter Cell, they've done it with Assassin's Creed now, and I just don't want to be a part of that cycle.

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Tom: I think what the case actually is given that you can't actually come up with a particularly coherent reason for disliking The Gays and The Cells.

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Tom: Long time listeners of the podcast will remember this, but it's well documented that you are highly xenophobic against the French and European culture, so I'm thinking that's probably the actual reason you don't like Ubisoft games.

00:11:15.687 --> 00:11:20.807

Phil: That may well be, but the primary reason is I don't like how they control, either.

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Phil: And also the xenophobia, racism, if you will.

00:11:25.567 --> 00:11:26.667

Phil: Perhaps, I don't know.

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Phil: I know you don't have an aversion to European games.

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Phil: It seems to be all you play.

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Phil: So, okay, so it's a big no.

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Phil: I mean, but I got to preorder this stupid thing, and so I'm hoping that these are all American games here.

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Phil: I'm hoping that at TGS, they announce something that I'd want, right?

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Phil: Like a good old JRPG or...

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Tom: That is a little odd that there are basically no Japanese games there in the launch lineup for the PS4.

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Phil: Absolutely none.

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Phil: Not a single one.

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Phil: And so they do have the Tokyo Game Show, so I see as a way of making, of apologizing to the Japanese people for announcing the system in the United States.

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Phil: At TGS, they might be holding some cards back.

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Phil: I can't believe that they wouldn't be having major Japanese developers not represented on launch day.

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Tom: Do you really think TGS is the avenue where they will be announcing this though?

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Tom: I mean, no one cares about TGS anymore.

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Phil: No one in Japan cares.

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Phil: It's basically a mobile phone convention, but it's all they got.

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Phil: And if you're going to pander to the Japanese audience, you may as well do it in Japan as opposed to Gamescom.

00:12:35.767 --> 00:12:39.667

Tom: But at the same time, you just said no one in Japan cares about TGS.

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Tom: Even though it is located in Japan, it still doesn't seem like a particularly good place to use to apologize to the Japanese people.

00:12:47.807 --> 00:12:58.987

Phil: If you're going to apologize, you may as well do it on their soil, which is a reason for us to go on a Japanese tour one of these days so we can personally apologize.

00:12:59.847 --> 00:13:01.947

Tom: To all our Japanese xenophobia.

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Tom: Before we move on, I just want to say, what do you think of this as a launch lineup?

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Tom: It seems really boring to me.

00:13:10.867 --> 00:13:14.387

Phil: Well, we just obviously proven that to us it's boring.

00:13:14.527 --> 00:13:17.447

Phil: I would say that this is an amazing lineup.

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Phil: You've got tent pole franchises there, like Assassin's Creed, Battlefield, Call of Duty, Just Dance, Killzone, Madden, NBA, FIFA, Diablo, right?

00:13:28.907 --> 00:13:32.947

Phil: And then you've got new games like Drive Club, which some people think is going to be free.

00:13:33.467 --> 00:13:39.707

Phil: For the kids, you've got Knack and LEGO Marvel Super Heroes, and Just Dance is a family game.

00:13:40.487 --> 00:13:41.787

Phil: Skyland is for the kids.

00:13:41.847 --> 00:13:47.187

Phil: And then, like I said, you've got Call of Duty, Battlefield, Assassin's Creed, Warframe, Watch Dogs, FIFA, NBA.

00:13:48.607 --> 00:13:51.927

Phil: And then for the nerds, you've got DC Universe Online.

00:13:51.947 --> 00:13:58.927

Phil: So I think as a lineup, if you are the people that like those games, I think it's a great lineup.

00:13:58.987 --> 00:14:00.587

Phil: Now, you know, what do we want, you know?

00:14:01.687 --> 00:14:03.787

Phil: I mean, they're giving you a Killzone.

00:14:04.227 --> 00:14:10.727

Phil: So I guess if they throw in Yakuza and some JRPG that no one gives a shit about, then yeah.

00:14:10.747 --> 00:14:11.967

Tom: So Yakuza then?

00:14:12.787 --> 00:14:13.127

Phil: Yeah.

00:14:13.787 --> 00:14:14.267

Tom: I don't know.

00:14:14.287 --> 00:14:15.607

Tom: I think to me this is just...

00:14:16.207 --> 00:14:18.827

Tom: There's too many games that are way too similar.

00:14:19.107 --> 00:14:21.867

Tom: I mean, do you really need that many kids' games, for example?

00:14:22.727 --> 00:14:23.187

Phil: Yes.

00:14:23.707 --> 00:14:26.787

Phil: I mean, obviously they could play Skylanders forever, right?

00:14:27.107 --> 00:14:31.927

Phil: But then you give them something else, like Just Dance, and they love the sports games and LEGO Marvel Super Heroes.

00:14:31.947 --> 00:14:32.467

Phil: That's fine.

00:14:32.967 --> 00:14:36.007

Phil: And then for the mature audience, you have all the shooters and the sports games.

00:14:38.107 --> 00:14:40.267

Phil: And yeah.

00:14:40.287 --> 00:14:47.947

Phil: I mean, I would like to see more of the arty stuff as well being promoted, but they might do that at Gamescom in Europe.

00:14:48.647 --> 00:14:53.447

Phil: They might reveal that, because they are working heavily with a lot of independent publishers.

00:14:55.667 --> 00:15:05.727

Phil: I know Mike Bithold is working with them, so they might be saving that for the European game show, since they are more cultured than the rest of us.

00:15:06.747 --> 00:15:08.367

Phil: So you think it's a lousy launch line up.

00:15:08.447 --> 00:15:09.827

Phil: None of these games talk to me.

00:15:10.467 --> 00:15:15.507

Phil: Killzone might be an argument just to see what Guerrilla Games is doing on new hardware.

00:15:15.887 --> 00:15:23.667

Phil: And if there was an MLB game, it's the wrong time of year for an MLB game, but if there was an MLB game at the show, I would also be hella interested.

00:15:24.507 --> 00:15:32.407

Phil: If there were an arcade racing game, I'd be down for that as well, because those are the kind of games that do well at launch.

00:15:32.447 --> 00:15:43.507

Tom: So now that we have established that you're getting a PS4 game anyway, if these are the only games that are launching, what will you be buying, despite the fact that you have no interest in any of them except possibly Killzone?

00:15:43.947 --> 00:15:48.927

Phil: Yeah, I'd probably get Killzone, and then just see what was available online from PSN.

00:15:51.327 --> 00:15:57.427

Phil: And just be satisfied with that, because that would certainly give us enough material for this show, and I've got plenty of other games to play on the old console.

00:15:57.507 --> 00:16:00.687

Tom: If you're getting Killzone just for that reason, you've got to get FIFA as well.

00:16:01.227 --> 00:16:02.227

Phil: Oh, gosh, you know what?

00:16:02.247 --> 00:16:04.467

Phil: Maybe I'd get FIFA instead of Killzone.

00:16:04.487 --> 00:16:05.987

Tom: That's fine with me, that would work too.

00:16:06.627 --> 00:16:07.707

Phil: Just to punch our listeners.

00:16:07.727 --> 00:16:07.907

Tom: Yeah.

00:16:08.807 --> 00:16:15.847

Phil: I wanted to give just quickly a first impression of a game that I mentioned last week I got for free, Activision Hits Remixed.

00:16:16.847 --> 00:16:17.067

Tom: Yep.

00:16:18.667 --> 00:16:23.947

Phil: This includes over 40 classics remixed, and I thought at that point it would be kind of cool.

00:16:24.567 --> 00:16:34.167

Phil: These are basically games for the Atari 2600, and they're only Activision games, but quite frankly, the Activision games were the best games on the system.

00:16:34.187 --> 00:16:36.807

Phil: There were bad versions of Space Invaders and Pac-Man.

00:16:36.827 --> 00:16:41.307

Phil: I liked them, and I still do like them to this day, but everyone else says they're bad.

00:16:42.427 --> 00:16:56.707

Phil: But these Activision, they've got games like Pitfall, River Raid, Demon's Attack, which is on my top five games of all time, Atlantis, Ice Hockey, Plak Attack, which is basically...

00:16:56.727 --> 00:16:57.987

Tom: Plak Attack, as in teeth?

00:16:58.087 --> 00:17:03.147

Phil: Yes, you attack Plak with a tube of toothpaste and a toothbrush.

00:17:04.647 --> 00:17:07.067

Tom: I hope that's also in your top five games of all time.

00:17:07.607 --> 00:17:08.467

Phil: Unfortunately not.

00:17:08.547 --> 00:17:16.527

Phil: River Raid 1 and 2, Laser Blast, Stampede, which is an amazing 2D side-scroller where you're on a horse and you have to rope little calves.

00:17:17.127 --> 00:17:19.567

Phil: So, you know, it kind of mirrors my real life.

00:17:20.387 --> 00:17:22.167

Tom: How realistic is it?

00:17:22.427 --> 00:17:24.947

Tom: As a farmer, you can comment on how realistic it is.

00:17:25.647 --> 00:17:29.567

Phil: Well, it's more of a horse racing game, so it's not very realistic at all.

00:17:30.287 --> 00:17:36.027

Phil: Fishing Derby, Freeway, which is where you play with two players and you have little chickens that have to cross a freeway.

00:17:36.567 --> 00:17:38.527

Phil: I mean, why cross the road when you could cross a freeway?

00:17:38.547 --> 00:17:39.487

Tom: So that's basically Frogger.

00:17:39.847 --> 00:17:42.087

Phil: No, it's not as good as Frogger.

00:17:42.107 --> 00:17:44.127

Phil: It's more faster paced than Frogger, though.

00:17:44.767 --> 00:17:47.827

Phil: Fishing Derby is a great game where you compete against another person to fish.

00:17:48.627 --> 00:17:51.447

Phil: Now, Phil, why would you be talking about this?

00:17:52.207 --> 00:17:57.987

Phil: This is a series of games from a hundred years ago that no one in this century cares about.

00:17:58.007 --> 00:17:58.807

Tom: Well, I do.

00:17:59.207 --> 00:18:03.767

Phil: Well, the fact is, right, number one, this is the way to do a collection.

00:18:04.647 --> 00:18:12.447

Phil: All of these games, you can play with someone on another PSP with no additional cartridge or UMD.

00:18:13.067 --> 00:18:22.667

Phil: So basically, you turn on the game sharing option and it enables you to basically upload the game to someone else's PSP and let them play it for free.

00:18:22.687 --> 00:18:25.147

Tom: Is this a limited or unlimited number of times?

00:18:25.367 --> 00:18:26.447

Phil: Unlimited number of times.

00:18:26.447 --> 00:18:27.587

Phil: They do have to be locally.

00:18:27.887 --> 00:18:30.847

Phil: They do have to be local, right?

00:18:30.907 --> 00:18:31.587

Phil: That's pretty good.

00:18:31.727 --> 00:18:41.527

Phil: Number two, they include all of the TV ads for all of the games you can unlock them when you get high scores on each of the games.

00:18:41.547 --> 00:18:43.527

Phil: You get to see the TV ads for the games.

00:18:43.547 --> 00:18:44.067

Tom: That's awesome.

00:18:44.987 --> 00:18:46.287

Phil: If one is available.

00:18:46.647 --> 00:18:48.207

Phil: Again, this is how you do a collection.

00:18:49.327 --> 00:18:56.647

Phil: Number three, they include all of the original packaging and manuals, digitally represented on screen, of course.

00:18:57.247 --> 00:19:00.027

Phil: So you're thinking, Phil, how could this possibly get any better?

00:19:00.147 --> 00:19:02.407

Phil: That is a great way to do a collection, right?

00:19:02.667 --> 00:19:06.367

Phil: All the manuals, share it with someone else for free, all the best games.

00:19:06.727 --> 00:19:08.127

Phil: How could they possibly make it better?

00:19:08.787 --> 00:19:13.507

Phil: They include featured 80s hits soundtrack.

00:19:14.647 --> 00:19:15.667

Phil: So why are you playing the game?

00:19:15.687 --> 00:19:18.327

Tom: Are these relevant to the games or are they just songs from the 80s?

00:19:18.347 --> 00:19:19.447

Phil: Just 80s music.

00:19:19.527 --> 00:19:29.907

Phil: So we're not going to take it by Twisted Sister, It's My Life by Talk Talk, Mexican Radio, Tainted Love, Walking in LA, The Tide is High by Blondie.

00:19:29.927 --> 00:19:33.827

Tom: Does this play while you're playing the game or is it on the menus or something?

00:19:33.987 --> 00:19:36.087

Phil: No, you can play it and you can change it.

00:19:36.727 --> 00:19:38.867

Phil: Safety Dance, Take On Me, Harden My Heart.

00:19:38.947 --> 00:19:40.727

Phil: It just goes on and on.

00:19:40.747 --> 00:19:45.007

Phil: They've got top tier 80s songs, fully licensed songs.

00:19:45.967 --> 00:19:52.307

Phil: You can turn them off or turn them on or if you don't like a particular song, you press the left or right trigger to move on to the next song.

00:19:53.307 --> 00:20:01.547

Phil: This is a ridiculous amount of value for a warmed over, you know, collection.

00:20:01.967 --> 00:20:03.867

Phil: Yep, that's pretty incredible.

00:20:03.887 --> 00:20:06.007

Phil: Yeah, it's incredible.

00:20:06.887 --> 00:20:08.867

Phil: I mean, you know, so nothing else to say on that.

00:20:09.867 --> 00:20:16.027

Phil: My only other question to you would be, have you ever, like, dallyed in these collections before?

00:20:16.047 --> 00:20:18.027

Phil: Do you have any particular highlights or lowlights?

00:20:18.247 --> 00:20:21.207

Tom: I don't think I've ever bought a collection of this variety.

00:20:21.867 --> 00:20:22.407

Phil: Why not?

00:20:23.087 --> 00:20:28.067

Tom: Because, I mean, half the games are complete trap, basically.

00:20:28.607 --> 00:20:30.407

Phil: So you haven't bought any of these?

00:20:30.407 --> 00:20:31.587

Tom: No, not a single one.

00:20:31.927 --> 00:20:38.347

Tom: Unless I've forgotten something in my dark past somewhere, but as far as I can remember now, I have never bought one.

00:20:38.947 --> 00:20:48.787

Phil: Well, these collections are, of course, no longer ever going to be made again, because now they can sell these games individually for, you know, $4.99 or $3.99, right?

00:20:49.267 --> 00:20:54.987

Phil: So it's kind of like in the original Animal Crossing, or rather the original Western Animal Crossing for the GameCube.

00:20:56.367 --> 00:20:57.987

Phil: They included many NES games.

00:20:58.007 --> 00:21:02.727

Phil: Now these were stupid NES games like Donkey Kong Math and things like that.

00:21:02.807 --> 00:21:03.827

Tom: Were they the full games?

00:21:04.347 --> 00:21:05.167

Phil: Yeah, the full games.

00:21:06.007 --> 00:21:10.707

Phil: You would dig them up or you could buy them or trade for them, and you could take them home.

00:21:10.727 --> 00:21:16.467

Phil: You'd have an NES system in your virtual house, and you could play them on screen.

00:21:17.047 --> 00:21:22.127

Phil: And of course, that would never happen now, because now Nintendo can sell those for $1.99, right?

00:21:22.807 --> 00:21:26.167

Phil: And that's why all of these collections will no longer come out anymore.

00:21:27.907 --> 00:21:34.767

Phil: Another great collection was the Capcom Classics Collection Volume 2, right?

00:21:34.787 --> 00:21:35.667

Tom: Yep.

00:21:36.107 --> 00:21:45.947

Phil: It was just an amazing collection, and again, they did similar types of things, including original concept art, which is also original concept art, soundtracks.

00:21:46.307 --> 00:21:52.007

Phil: They gave you all sorts of emulation options in terms of how you want to present them on the screen.

00:21:52.887 --> 00:21:56.687

Phil: You can put a filter on them to make them look smooth or if you like, chunky pixels.

00:21:57.627 --> 00:21:58.687

Phil: So that was another good one.

00:21:58.707 --> 00:22:01.047

Phil: That was released for the PlayStation 2 and Xbox.

00:22:02.807 --> 00:22:06.927

Phil: The second worst one I ever got was Midway Arcade Treasures 3.

00:22:06.987 --> 00:22:10.887

Phil: So Midway released a series of games under the Arcade Treasures line.

00:22:12.147 --> 00:22:15.287

Phil: And the last one and the third one, each one had a theme.

00:22:15.827 --> 00:22:19.267

Phil: The third one was all their racing games, right?

00:22:19.567 --> 00:22:20.787

Tom: So why is this terrible?

00:22:21.787 --> 00:22:22.947

Phil: Well, it's terrible.

00:22:23.347 --> 00:22:26.887

Phil: It's good because it has San Francisco Rush 2049.

00:22:29.027 --> 00:22:31.327

Phil: That's basically the only game on here worth playing.

00:22:31.347 --> 00:22:33.207

Phil: And San Francisco Rush The Rock Out Treasures.

00:22:33.227 --> 00:22:35.647

Phil: And they have a bunch of really bad arcade games, you know?

00:22:36.207 --> 00:22:44.027

Phil: The reason why this is bad is because Midway's greatest racing series outside of Rush was Cruisen, right?

00:22:44.407 --> 00:22:47.287

Phil: Cruisen USA, Cruisen World, Cruisen Exotica.

00:22:47.987 --> 00:22:53.467

Phil: And of course, because they're Nintendo exclusives, they're not included in the Midway arcade treasures.

00:22:54.227 --> 00:22:57.107

Tom: So they're missing the only relevant games, basically.

00:22:57.247 --> 00:22:59.187

Phil: They're missing the seminal games.

00:22:59.747 --> 00:23:01.347

Phil: And this is the thing, right?

00:23:01.407 --> 00:23:02.907

Phil: Cruisen was an arcade hit.

00:23:04.307 --> 00:23:08.447

Phil: But Nintendo had the exclusive rights for console distribution of those games.

00:23:08.447 --> 00:23:10.707

Phil: And that apparently extends to collections.

00:23:12.607 --> 00:23:14.527

Phil: So no Cruisen.

00:23:14.827 --> 00:23:16.127

Phil: Not even the arcade versions.

00:23:16.747 --> 00:23:18.467

Phil: Which would be amazing to play.

00:23:18.487 --> 00:23:18.687

Tom: Yeah.

00:23:19.367 --> 00:23:25.667

Tom: So that's kind of ridiculous to make a racing-themed collection and admit them.

00:23:25.907 --> 00:23:27.287

Phil: Yeah, I'm trying to think what...

00:23:27.367 --> 00:23:28.887

Phil: I mean, what else would it be?

00:23:28.907 --> 00:23:36.367

Phil: It would be like, I don't know, EA Sports coming out and not having Madden in there or not having FIFA in there, you know, in a collection or whatever.

00:23:37.267 --> 00:23:43.067

Phil: All right, so one day when I was drunk on Amazon, I saw a PlayStation 2 game that I absolutely had to have, right?

00:23:43.887 --> 00:23:46.727

Phil: Now, it's called Ultimate Board Game Collection.

00:23:47.987 --> 00:23:48.387

Phil: Okay?

00:23:48.407 --> 00:23:48.647

Tom: Yeah.

00:23:49.327 --> 00:23:52.407

Phil: Ultimate Board Game Collection, 20 classics from around the world.

00:23:52.547 --> 00:23:53.987

Phil: So think about the top...

00:23:54.507 --> 00:23:56.907

Phil: Think of some classic board games.

00:23:57.707 --> 00:23:59.307

Tom: Pac-Man on the PS2.

00:24:00.167 --> 00:24:01.167

Phil: Board games.

00:24:01.267 --> 00:24:04.307

Tom: Yeah, there was a board game, there was a Pac-Man board game on the PS2.

00:24:06.647 --> 00:24:07.027

Phil: No, no.

00:24:07.747 --> 00:24:11.747

Tom: Oh, you mean non-video game board games.

00:24:12.027 --> 00:24:13.207

Phil: Like Hungry Hungry Hippos.

00:24:13.227 --> 00:24:13.767

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

00:24:14.347 --> 00:24:15.227

Tom: Snakes and Ladders.

00:24:15.947 --> 00:24:16.667

Tom: Cash Flow.

00:24:17.387 --> 00:24:18.187

Phil: Candy Land.

00:24:20.147 --> 00:24:20.767

Phil: Monopoly.

00:24:21.647 --> 00:24:21.947

Phil: Right?

00:24:22.787 --> 00:24:23.287

Phil: Scrabble.

00:24:23.307 --> 00:24:27.707

Tom: None of which are as good as the board games I made myself, though, but continue on.

00:24:28.507 --> 00:24:30.387

Phil: Jenga, kind of a board game.

00:24:31.447 --> 00:24:34.427

Phil: So, I get it, and here are the games that they include.

00:24:34.447 --> 00:24:34.607

Tom: Yep.

00:24:35.967 --> 00:24:36.507

Phil: Checkers.

00:24:38.147 --> 00:24:38.607

Phil: Chess.

00:24:39.567 --> 00:24:40.327

Phil: Backgammon.

00:24:41.747 --> 00:24:43.167

Phil: 100 Jigsaw Puzzles.

00:24:44.407 --> 00:24:45.507

Phil: Chinese Checkers.

00:24:46.407 --> 00:24:47.207

Phil: Mahjong.

00:24:48.127 --> 00:24:48.867

Phil: Dominoes.

00:24:48.887 --> 00:24:52.547

Tom: Okay, technically a lot of those do actually involve a board.

00:24:55.607 --> 00:24:58.647

Phil: Basically every game that doesn't have a license.

00:24:58.667 --> 00:24:58.927

Tom: Yep.

00:25:00.227 --> 00:25:01.887

Phil: I don't want to play Mahjong.

00:25:01.887 --> 00:25:02.407

Phil: I don't know...

00:25:03.167 --> 00:25:03.787

Phil: I don't know.

00:25:04.127 --> 00:25:05.007

Phil: Chinese Checkers?

00:25:05.027 --> 00:25:05.387

Phil: No.

00:25:06.027 --> 00:25:06.527

Phil: Checkers?

00:25:06.547 --> 00:25:06.847

Phil: No.

00:25:07.707 --> 00:25:08.127

Phil: Anyway.

00:25:08.347 --> 00:25:14.367

Phil: So it does say that you can set your mood by choosing from classical, pop and rock musical styles.

00:25:15.067 --> 00:25:16.627

Phil: So, no actual licensed music.

00:25:16.627 --> 00:25:16.947

Tom: Yep.

00:25:17.827 --> 00:25:18.527

Phil: Um, so...

00:25:18.867 --> 00:25:20.107

Phil: Yeah, that was terrible.

00:25:20.347 --> 00:25:22.227

Phil: Terrible, terrible collection.

00:25:22.827 --> 00:25:23.207

Tom: Excellent.

00:25:23.207 --> 00:25:27.627

Tom: So, we'll move on to The Raven Legacy of a Master Theif, then, shall we?

00:25:29.167 --> 00:25:29.987

Phil: Yes, sir.

00:25:30.247 --> 00:25:33.027

Phil: Now, The Raven Legacy of a Master Theif.

00:25:33.047 --> 00:25:36.607

Phil: In preparation for this show, I actually read several previews of this game.

00:25:37.407 --> 00:25:40.687

Phil: And I still have no idea what the hell is going on with this.

00:25:40.707 --> 00:25:44.027

Phil: This is a point and click adventure by Nordic Games.

00:25:44.047 --> 00:25:48.247

Tom: Who, uh, their claim to fame is the Book of Unwritten Tales series.

00:25:48.967 --> 00:25:53.847

Tom: And I'm actually confused, what was the general prevailing opinion of the previews?

00:25:54.167 --> 00:26:02.847

Phil: Well, they said that it's set in the 1960s in Europe and that it was romantic in theme.

00:26:03.767 --> 00:26:15.427

Phil: And it was kind of a swashbuckling introduction followed by a vaguely enjoyable atmospheric play through the game.

00:26:15.587 --> 00:26:19.687

Phil: And I'm trying to avoid saying specifics because I know you're going to get into it here.

00:26:20.467 --> 00:26:22.207

Phil: But that was the general thing.

00:26:22.227 --> 00:26:26.567

Phil: But I actually had to go to like three different sites before I found out it was a point and click adventure.

00:26:27.427 --> 00:26:34.587

Phil: Because after I read all those other previews, I'm still like, okay, they didn't tell me what format it's on, which is Windows, Xbox and PlayStation 3.

00:26:34.607 --> 00:26:34.827

Tom: Yep.

00:26:34.827 --> 00:26:35.167

Phil: Right?

00:26:35.507 --> 00:26:37.307

Phil: They didn't tell me what genre it was.

00:26:37.547 --> 00:26:39.507

Tom: Did they tell you that it was episodic as well?

00:26:39.587 --> 00:26:43.007

Phil: They said that it was the first in three episodes.

00:26:43.027 --> 00:26:45.287

Phil: All of them mentioned that, so that must have been in the press release.

00:26:45.307 --> 00:26:45.487

Phil: Yep.

00:26:47.187 --> 00:26:48.447

Phil: It's just astonishing though.

00:26:48.787 --> 00:26:52.567

Tom: It wasn't just the episodic that was in the press release.

00:26:52.587 --> 00:27:01.227

Tom: They also included, at least the press release I got, with the review code, they also included, quite clearly that it was in fact a point and click adventure game.

00:27:02.147 --> 00:27:13.767

Phil: Well, I know, but just a tip out there for people writing previews, if you're not going to have a fact box on the side panel, mention it in the first paragraph or so, so we know what the hell we're looking about.

00:27:13.787 --> 00:27:18.407

Phil: Because judging by the graphics, you wouldn't necessarily think this was a point and click adventure.

00:27:18.427 --> 00:27:34.487

Tom: I think you would, but beyond that, we all know I generally avoid doing backstory, but in a preview, that's where you generally want to include the backstory, as when you're previewing a game, most people reading the preview aren't actually necessarily going to know what the game is.

00:27:34.787 --> 00:27:35.307

Phil: Exactly.

00:27:35.307 --> 00:27:44.787

Phil: In a review, it's not necessary, because by the time a review comes out, the commercial product is out, and someone is expressing enough interest in it to come and look at your information.

00:27:44.787 --> 00:27:51.227

Tom: And the sites themselves have also no doubt given the backstory in their own previews and previous coverage.

00:27:51.247 --> 00:27:55.707

Phil: Whereas in a preview, you kind of just breeze through preview sections, because you're like, oh, what's this?

00:27:55.867 --> 00:27:57.727

Phil: Trying to discover something new.

00:27:58.787 --> 00:28:02.627

Phil: Make an effort to explain exactly what it is in your first paragraph.

00:28:02.767 --> 00:28:04.587

Phil: I'm going to give you an opportunity for a first paragraph.

00:28:04.647 --> 00:28:08.167

Phil: Go ahead and impress us with your educational skills.

00:28:08.187 --> 00:28:15.967

Tom: Okay, well, first things first, I'm not going to do much backstory, because I'm going to just continue with the theme of these ridiculous previews.

00:28:15.987 --> 00:28:19.647

Tom: This isn't really a preview so much as a first impression.

00:28:19.767 --> 00:28:38.627

Tom: And I think the most interesting thing about the game, which you do find out at the very beginning, is who the protagonist appears to be, which is a man in the twilight of his years, at the very least, late middle age, some incompetent, perhaps incompetent, policemen, Swiss policemen.

00:28:39.107 --> 00:28:53.387

Tom: And I'm actually going to veer off from the game to a certain prevailing, shall we say, tract of modern video game press and culture, is people complaining about a lack of female protagonists, right?

00:28:53.687 --> 00:28:54.627

Phil: Yeah, that's been a theme.

00:28:54.967 --> 00:28:57.227

Phil: I mean, we're making up for it this year though.

00:28:57.247 --> 00:28:57.507

Tom: Yep.

00:28:57.527 --> 00:29:04.707

Tom: Now, wouldn't you say that there have actually been far less elderly protagonists in video games than females?

00:29:05.427 --> 00:29:06.827

Phil: Yeah, I'm trying to think of one.

00:29:06.847 --> 00:29:10.387

Phil: I guess Agent 47 might be older.

00:29:11.167 --> 00:29:13.347

Phil: You've got Sully, but he's more of a side character.

00:29:13.367 --> 00:29:16.007

Phil: You never actually play as Sully in any of the Uncharted games.

00:29:16.667 --> 00:29:18.307

Phil: Yeah, he's a sidekick.

00:29:18.627 --> 00:29:19.407

Phil: You make him sound so...

00:29:19.607 --> 00:29:27.967

Phil: He's a second banana, except for that old bag in Uncharted 3, which only appears in cutscenes in that one part at the end of the game.

00:29:27.967 --> 00:29:29.747

Tom: Which is also a cutscene, by the way.

00:29:29.907 --> 00:29:30.687

Phil: You're right.

00:29:30.707 --> 00:29:32.187

Phil: You don't actually get to do anything there.

00:29:32.507 --> 00:29:34.927

Phil: But yeah, the elderly are underrepresented.

00:29:34.947 --> 00:29:38.347

Phil: You could make an argument for Joel in The Last of Us.

00:29:38.427 --> 00:29:42.047

Phil: He is probably in his very late 40s.

00:29:43.527 --> 00:29:44.527

Tom: I think the big one...

00:29:45.107 --> 00:29:46.987

Tom: Late 40s is hardly old.

00:29:47.007 --> 00:29:48.667

Tom: That's just beginning middle age.

00:29:49.207 --> 00:29:51.867

Tom: You stay late 40s only because you were so young.

00:29:52.627 --> 00:29:53.087

Phil: Yeah.

00:29:53.527 --> 00:29:54.867

Phil: Okay, so elderly people.

00:29:55.287 --> 00:29:56.367

Phil: Oh, Henry Hatsworth.

00:29:56.887 --> 00:29:57.907

Phil: Henry Hatsworth.

00:29:57.927 --> 00:29:58.407

Tom: There's one.

00:29:59.267 --> 00:30:02.627

Tom: I think you're forgetting the biggest one, though, that I can think of, and that is...

00:30:03.067 --> 00:30:04.367

Phil: The Judge in Phoenix Wright?

00:30:04.367 --> 00:30:05.447

Tom: No, no, no, no, no.

00:30:05.447 --> 00:30:11.087

Tom: The main character in Killer 7, who is not only old, but disabled as well.

00:30:11.487 --> 00:30:12.987

Phil: I haven't played enough of that game.

00:30:13.127 --> 00:30:14.127

Phil: Is he in a wheelchair?

00:30:14.127 --> 00:30:16.227

Tom: Yup, he's in a wheelchair and he's old.

00:30:17.287 --> 00:30:18.587

Tom: How did you not notice this?

00:30:19.427 --> 00:30:22.827

Tom: You see this basically at the beginning of the game, if I remember correctly.

00:30:24.247 --> 00:30:28.507

Phil: I only played the first five minutes probably about seven years ago.

00:30:28.527 --> 00:30:35.427

Tom: The multiple personalities may have confused you, as his other personalities are neither old nor disabled.

00:30:36.047 --> 00:30:36.847

Phil: But that's a good one.

00:30:36.887 --> 00:30:39.987

Phil: So this old dude, he's like an old cat burglar?

00:30:40.427 --> 00:30:40.967

Tom: No, no, no.

00:30:40.987 --> 00:30:43.687

Tom: Well, we don't know if he's a cat burglar, but presumably he's not.

00:30:43.707 --> 00:31:12.547

Tom: He's an old police officer, an old Swiss policeman who is into detective fiction and clearly has gone off to go on some great big adventure to attempt to catch this world famous The Raven Master Theif, or not technically The Raven Master Theif, but the replacement as The Raven has actually just recently been killed by a world famous Interpol detective.

00:31:13.167 --> 00:31:15.607

Tom: And that is basically the hook at the beginning of the game.

00:31:18.427 --> 00:31:19.187

Phil: Wait, so what?

00:31:20.087 --> 00:31:22.707

Phil: There is a famous detective called The Raven, right?

00:31:22.847 --> 00:31:34.627

Tom: The famous detective is an Interpol detective called LeGrand, who killed The Raven at some stage during possibly suspicious circumstances.

00:31:34.647 --> 00:31:40.307

Tom: Then someone has committed a similar crime to The Raven wearing a similar disguise.

00:31:40.427 --> 00:31:42.947

Tom: And that is the beginning of the game.

00:31:43.107 --> 00:31:48.547

Phil: Okay, so now you are not the guy that killed him, you are just the guy who is trying to find this cat burglar dude.

00:31:48.567 --> 00:31:58.407

Tom: You are some bumbling clouso type, bumbling clouso, elderly policeman who has jetted off around Europe on some final great adventure.

00:31:58.987 --> 00:32:05.287

Tom: Much to the disappointment of his daughter, who is worried about his health.

00:32:05.307 --> 00:32:13.647

Phil: Elderly people solving crimes, you've got Miss Marple, you've got Agatha Christie and you've got Angela.

00:32:14.007 --> 00:32:17.447

Tom: I don't think Agatha Christie herself went around solving crimes.

00:32:19.947 --> 00:32:26.507

Phil: You don't know that because you had Angela Lansby character, Jessica Parker, in Murder She Wrote, right?

00:32:26.967 --> 00:32:32.087

Phil: So she was writing the books, but in real life, she was solving the mysteries.

00:32:32.307 --> 00:32:39.007

Phil: So kind of like Alan Wake or Stephen King, how in real life the stuff happens and then he just writes about it.

00:32:39.027 --> 00:32:41.407

Phil: Everyone's like, how did they come up with this amazing story?

00:32:41.627 --> 00:32:42.987

Phil: She's just writing about her life.

00:32:44.247 --> 00:32:47.687

Phil: Anyway, so you do have elderly people writing mystery stuff.

00:32:49.487 --> 00:32:53.267

Phil: So I saw some images of the game.

00:32:54.407 --> 00:32:55.347

Phil: It does look good.

00:32:55.367 --> 00:32:56.667

Phil: It has its own art style.

00:32:57.147 --> 00:32:59.127

Phil: It's not quite going for photorealism.

00:32:59.147 --> 00:33:00.347

Phil: It's kind of like Uncharted.

00:33:00.367 --> 00:33:03.787

Phil: It's going for somewhere in between, a little cartoony, a little caricature-ish.

00:33:05.147 --> 00:33:09.607

Phil: It reminded me of The Ship, that horrible game you made me play earlier this year.

00:33:09.907 --> 00:33:16.047

Tom: Well, I think The Ship was more set in the 40s or the 50s, whereas this is very much set in the 60s.

00:33:16.147 --> 00:33:28.627

Tom: And as you probably know from my brief comments of Alan Waite, when it comes to basically doing a pastiche of a time period, I get rather annoyed when there are glaring problems with it.

00:33:28.647 --> 00:33:37.087

Tom: And so far, it's doing the 60s very well, as it is buying very much into stuff like Inspect Clueso and all that sort of thing.

00:33:37.527 --> 00:34:14.507

Tom: Stuff like cat burglars and elderly people solving crimes and detective fiction all sit very well with a 60s sort of setting, as does the physical setting of the game, which at the beginning at least is the Orient Express, which is rather a very evocative place to set an adventure game due to The Last Express, of course, because if you are setting an adventure game on a train in the opening in a setting like the 60s, you're immediately going to be bringing to mind The Last Express, which is obviously one of the greatest adventure games of all time.

00:34:14.527 --> 00:34:25.907

Tom: So that's quite a ballsy setting to begin your game in, but many adventure games over the years have feature train settings due to the extreme influence of The Last Express.

00:34:27.227 --> 00:34:29.287

Phil: Well, also it makes for...

00:34:29.447 --> 00:34:32.367

Phil: I mean, it's obviously very easy to develop for.

00:34:32.387 --> 00:34:35.887

Phil: You don't get a much more linear setting than a train.

00:34:36.427 --> 00:34:55.307

Tom: But it's generally, as far as I can see, avoided, at least as an opening setting in a series, because of the fact that anyone playing the game is immediately going to think of The Last Express, which is going to result in probably unfairly high expectations when it comes to the game itself, right?

00:34:55.487 --> 00:34:58.327

Phil: Well, The Last Express did come out a very long time ago.

00:34:58.347 --> 00:34:59.287

Phil: So I think it's...

00:34:59.787 --> 00:35:04.807

Phil: And also, you know, trains are a classic setting for murder mysteries and the like.

00:35:04.827 --> 00:35:11.547

Phil: So I think that enough time has passed that people would not be drawing correlations between the two.

00:35:11.567 --> 00:35:21.547

Phil: I think they'd probably skip contrasting it against The Last Express and go straight to the more famous movie, you know, the Orient Express or the book.

00:35:21.607 --> 00:35:30.087

Tom: I would say that would be the case if it was not an adventure game, which is an extremely niche genre that is very much all about its history.

00:35:30.767 --> 00:35:32.367

Phil: Yep, you're right, you're right.

00:35:32.387 --> 00:35:37.927

Phil: One question I do have about the 60s setting before you go on is, did you play No One Lives Forever?

00:35:38.607 --> 00:35:43.207

Tom: I've played the demo and have been wanting to play the game since the demo.

00:35:43.867 --> 00:35:46.527

Phil: Yeah, I think I have the PS2 version.

00:35:46.547 --> 00:35:48.247

Phil: Yeah, I do have the PS2 version of it.

00:35:48.627 --> 00:35:53.087

Phil: And I imagine it would be a very similar type of setting.

00:35:53.107 --> 00:36:02.047

Tom: Well, I think No One Lives Forever was much more of a parody and much more psychedelic.

00:36:02.067 --> 00:36:08.247

Tom: This is more of a light-hearted, serious sort of tone rather than parody.

00:36:08.307 --> 00:36:16.187

Tom: And it's very much, as you can probably guess from the elderly protagonist staying away so far from psychedelica and hippies and that sort of stuff.

00:36:16.707 --> 00:36:24.387

Phil: That could be really interesting because so much of games that are set in the 60s just immediately go straight to parody.

00:36:24.387 --> 00:36:33.667

Phil: So if it's an actual serious setting other than the character who you described as a closer type of character, that would be really interesting.

00:36:33.687 --> 00:36:38.587

Tom: Well, it is of course still very light-hearted and amusing in tone, but it's certainly not.

00:36:39.267 --> 00:36:42.247

Tom: Parodying the era to any great degree.

00:36:42.647 --> 00:36:57.907

Tom: Now, I don't know if this is simply due to my rather questionable brain state at the moment, but this is certainly going from the Book of Unwritten Tales a drastically more adduced style of puzzle-solving.

00:36:57.927 --> 00:37:08.507

Tom: And I don't want to go into too many details as this is still not coming out until I think the 21st this month and the embargo is still a long way off.

00:37:08.527 --> 00:37:16.767

Tom: But basically, I'm going along in this train and someone's lost their purse and I come across another character.

00:37:17.667 --> 00:37:18.187

Tom: Sorry, what?

00:37:18.967 --> 00:37:19.507

Phil: Oh dear.

00:37:19.527 --> 00:37:20.087

Tom: That's right.

00:37:20.527 --> 00:37:21.667

Tom: What a catastrophe.

00:37:21.867 --> 00:37:22.467

Tom: Well, they are.

00:37:22.467 --> 00:37:23.287

Phil: Oh my god.

00:37:23.307 --> 00:37:24.727

Tom: Someone's lost their purse.

00:37:24.847 --> 00:37:25.987

Tom: They are a baroness.

00:37:26.147 --> 00:37:28.207

Tom: Oh, good lord.

00:37:28.227 --> 00:37:29.087

Phil: Who knows what was in the purse?

00:37:29.187 --> 00:37:31.407

Tom: They could have lost millions of francs.

00:37:32.127 --> 00:37:32.767

Phil: And cocaine.

00:37:34.767 --> 00:37:44.427

Tom: But so, someone's lost their purse, and I go along and talk to another character later on, and they say, well, why don't you talk to my son, who's great at finding lost stuff, right?

00:37:45.507 --> 00:37:51.127

Tom: So I'm thinking, okay, obviously I should go and talk to this person's son, who I've previously talked to.

00:37:51.267 --> 00:37:52.787

Tom: I know who this character is.

00:37:53.207 --> 00:38:02.347

Tom: I've fully explored, I haven't fully explored the train, so I continue going along the train, seeing where everything is, and I completely explore the train.

00:38:04.847 --> 00:38:07.027

Tom: I look, and he has completely disappeared.

00:38:07.827 --> 00:38:31.247

Tom: And the only way to put this, one area that I cannot get to, where he will possibly be, and I assume he is going to be in there, but the way it is paced and set up, this seems to be a sort of side sort of puzzle, it would actually solve before continuing with the main puzzles in the story.

00:38:31.567 --> 00:38:37.087

Tom: And one of the bullet points in the press release was that it had optional puzzles to solve.

00:38:37.387 --> 00:38:50.627

Tom: It seems a little bizarre that this character has presumably disappeared to the one inaccessible spot on the train that is accessed only through continuing in the story.

00:38:50.827 --> 00:38:52.007

Phil: So did you find the boy?

00:38:52.027 --> 00:39:05.747

Tom: I'm yet to find the boy, as at that stage I basically gave up for the minute, because my brain was about to melt, which once again needs to be qualified due to my lack of ability to think at the moment.

00:39:05.867 --> 00:39:07.467

Tom: So it could just be me.

00:39:07.927 --> 00:39:23.347

Tom: The other interesting thing about it is, and this has got nothing to do with my present state of mind, is the highlighting system of clickable items, which has become a standard in adventure games for people who don't want to pixel hunt, right?

00:39:23.367 --> 00:39:27.427

Tom: Where you basically press a button and everything in the scene becomes highlighted.

00:39:28.607 --> 00:39:30.187

Tom: Have you played any games that do this?

00:39:31.087 --> 00:39:42.047

Phil: No, I mean, the closest I would have come to that would have been like in the Back to the Future series, but you basically still have to move the mouse around, and if it's something that's clickable, you know, a halo or an aura will come up around it.

00:39:42.147 --> 00:39:44.027

Tom: No, no, no, no.

00:39:44.027 --> 00:39:50.127

Tom: What this does is you press a button and all the auras become visible without having to highlight them.

00:39:50.727 --> 00:39:51.327

Phil: That's crap.

00:39:51.347 --> 00:39:59.567

Tom: I would say it's actually quite useful because if you're playing a game with extreme pixel hunting, it can be coming handy.

00:40:00.347 --> 00:40:02.947

Tom: If it's optional, I think it is a good feature to have.

00:40:03.627 --> 00:40:04.387

Tom: You don't think it is?

00:40:04.627 --> 00:40:05.547

Phil: If it's optional?

00:40:05.567 --> 00:40:10.487

Phil: As long as it's optional, because then if you don't like doing that, then you don't need to press the button.

00:40:10.827 --> 00:40:15.687

Tom: If everything already had an aura around it, that would be utterly just incredibly stupid.

00:40:16.027 --> 00:40:20.807

Phil: Because a lot of these games, you just feel like the game's playing you, you know?

00:40:24.227 --> 00:40:25.987

Phil: You just wouldn't feel like you're doing anything.

00:40:26.347 --> 00:40:27.447

Phil: But as long as it's an option.

00:40:27.867 --> 00:40:31.187

Tom: And it is there for people who might want to just enjoy the story.

00:40:31.207 --> 00:40:33.707

Tom: It's not there for people who want to play the game.

00:40:34.027 --> 00:40:41.127

Tom: So you would expect such a feature to be basically very obviously highlight everything in the environment, right?

00:40:42.207 --> 00:40:42.467

Phil: Yep.

00:40:42.887 --> 00:40:43.807

Tom: Not so here.

00:40:43.827 --> 00:40:58.067

Tom: What happens is you press the button and a somewhat hard to see magnifying glass flashes on the screen for maybe about one second before moving to the next highlightable object, at which point it then disappears.

00:40:58.707 --> 00:41:03.447

Tom: And each time you highlight it, it costs you adventure points.

00:41:03.487 --> 00:41:06.467

Tom: I'm not sure what adventure points do.

00:41:06.527 --> 00:41:11.947

Tom: I presume they have something to do with the extras that you can unlock such as concept art.

00:41:12.947 --> 00:41:28.707

Tom: But it seems to be a rather backwards way to do it because it's not as if anyone that is going to be wanting to play this as a normal puzzle solving game or in any sort of hardcore way that might be interested in getting a high score is going to be using it anyway.

00:41:28.707 --> 00:41:42.767

Tom: So it does seem like that's just simply punishing the people that would be interested in such a feature, which is people that just want to play it for the story or have no interest in playing it as a puzzle solving exercise.

00:41:43.187 --> 00:41:50.667

Phil: You can't really say too much about it because the embargo doesn't last until later in a month, which will be able to talk about the game much more expansively.

00:41:50.687 --> 00:41:54.327

Phil: So you can't really get into opinions either in terms of good or not.

00:41:54.367 --> 00:41:56.367

Tom: I think I can easily.

00:41:56.387 --> 00:42:00.587

Tom: The other thing is I have only played it very briefly about an hour or so.

00:42:00.907 --> 00:42:12.367

Tom: But apart from the obtuseness, I think the protagonist is a very intriguing character due to the elderly nature of the character.

00:42:12.387 --> 00:42:16.247

Tom: That alone makes it a very original protagonist for a game.

00:42:16.267 --> 00:42:19.367

Tom: And it ties very much into the setting of the game.

00:42:19.387 --> 00:42:23.807

Tom: So I'm very intrigued as to where the story is going to go.

00:42:24.967 --> 00:42:29.947

Tom: And it does come from a very high pedigree of adventure gaming ilk.

00:42:30.487 --> 00:42:36.767

Tom: As the Book of Unwritten Tales was one of the most well-received mainstream adventure titles.

00:42:36.787 --> 00:42:43.867

Tom: Probably the biggest adventure game title before The Walking Dead came out in this generation easily.

00:42:44.247 --> 00:42:48.007

Tom: So I have high expectations as to where this will be going.

00:42:48.027 --> 00:42:51.647

Tom: And so far it is an intriguing, if somewhat obtuse, opening.

00:42:51.667 --> 00:42:57.987

Tom: Which is, for the amount I've played, certainly enough to get me interested in where it's going.

00:42:58.027 --> 00:43:01.027

Phil: It looks nice too visually, so that doesn't hurt.

00:43:01.227 --> 00:43:06.247

Tom: The only thing about the visuals is the animation is at times really rather poor.

00:43:06.807 --> 00:43:13.767

Phil: You know, where click and point adventure games might aid themselves too, would be with more realistic facial animation.

00:43:14.687 --> 00:43:17.427

Phil: So you could pick up on the subtleties, as in, you know, LA.

00:43:17.427 --> 00:43:17.887

Phil: Noire.

00:43:17.947 --> 00:43:18.967

Tom: Yep, absolutely.

00:43:19.387 --> 00:43:25.867

Tom: Not just facial animation, but also stuff like cinematic shot selection and editing.

00:43:26.147 --> 00:43:27.107

Phil: Like in The Walking Dead.

00:43:27.127 --> 00:43:32.167

Tom: Yep, which this is doing not to the same degree of success as The Walking Dead.

00:43:32.187 --> 00:44:12.547

Tom: It's much more primitive than that, but it is doing a more cinematic style of presentation during the dialogue and deserves kudos for doing that, even if it doesn't do it to the same degree of The Walking Dead, which I think actually, just to, as we've said all we can, basically about The Raven for the reason that I played it, just to move on to The Walking Dead, I think the cinematic presentation was actually a blessing and a curse, because it was framed nicely, but I think the editing was very much comic editing that they had carried over from the Sam and Max games and their other titles, and I don't think it really fitted the tone.

00:44:12.707 --> 00:44:28.727

Tom: And the worst thing about it was, though, it really played up the absolutely awful facial expression that they had in the game, which 100% basically extracted as ported animations from their previous titles, which are all very comical in tone.

00:44:29.547 --> 00:44:34.967

Phil: Well, I mean, perhaps the comic book influence could have come from, oh, I don't know, The Walking Dead comic book.

00:44:34.987 --> 00:44:37.007

Tom: No, no, no, no, comical as in humor.

00:44:37.327 --> 00:44:40.547

Phil: No, no, but back to what you were saying about the framing of it.

00:44:41.507 --> 00:44:47.507

Phil: I mean, the frame selection, the shot selection, I had prior given them a lot of credit for that, because here they are working on a game for about a month.

00:44:47.547 --> 00:44:51.227

Phil: I know what you're saying, but they're working on a game for like a month and a half to two months at most.

00:44:51.627 --> 00:45:00.227

Phil: And so for them to come back with a directorial style that is unmatched in any other video game to date, including The Last of Us, I might say, which has tremendous acting.

00:45:00.707 --> 00:45:15.047

Phil: But in like Bioshock, not in Bioshock, BioWare in their Mass Effect games has this deplorable directing, like they haven't even taken a community college course in directors, which I have incidentally.

00:45:15.067 --> 00:45:16.827

Tom: Yeah, so you know what you're talking about.

00:45:17.247 --> 00:45:17.907

Phil: I do know.

00:45:17.927 --> 00:45:20.147

Tom: Community college education.

00:45:20.647 --> 00:45:25.367

Phil: Where basically you have a camera pointed at whoever's talking and they just cut backwards and forwards.

00:45:25.387 --> 00:45:28.227

Phil: And The Walking Dead had greater direction, right?

00:45:28.567 --> 00:45:38.587

Phil: So someone else might be talking, but they'll pause on the character who's not talking so they can see the reaction, go figure, low angle, high angle, whatever.

00:45:38.607 --> 00:45:42.847

Phil: And it wasn't until you played the game that the camera actually became broken.

00:45:43.547 --> 00:45:45.667

Phil: But in the cut scenes, it was great.

00:45:45.687 --> 00:45:46.807

Phil: Now, I know what you're talking about.

00:45:46.827 --> 00:45:52.287

Phil: You're talking about the actual shape of the face, the expression of the eyes.

00:45:52.287 --> 00:45:57.227

Phil: And the main character in The Walking Dead was much like which guy in Salmon Max?

00:45:57.667 --> 00:46:06.527

Phil: Where he just basically like his surprise animation was to open his mouth wide and his eyes would basically turn anime for a few seconds.

00:46:07.307 --> 00:46:18.447

Phil: Yeah, so that's where the where if you had the shot selection of The Walking Dead and the acting of The Last of Us, I don't think the shot selection is enough because I've got no problem with the framing.

00:46:19.047 --> 00:46:35.467

Tom: I think the framing was excellent in The Walking Dead, but I do think the editing was still once again straight out of their previous games, which were not comic as in comic book style of flow to the action, but were comical as in they were meant to be humorous.

00:46:35.487 --> 00:46:42.767

Tom: And I think the editing was exactly the same as in those games, but the framing was excellent and did definitely capture.

00:46:43.127 --> 00:46:53.047

Tom: I haven't read the comic books, but they definitely captured an excellent comic book feel to the framing, but I think the editing was really completely opposite to their intentions.

00:46:54.387 --> 00:47:17.827

Phil: I mean, Walking Dead is a game that we still have yet to discuss on this podcast, but I think that in the wake of The Last of Us, covering much of the same emotional material in terms of great loss and the same kinds of characters, a middle-aged male character with a young child.

00:47:18.687 --> 00:47:22.787

Phil: Obviously, Clementine is significantly younger than Ellie, who's 14.

00:47:23.007 --> 00:47:26.067

Tom: Also, Lee, I would say, is significantly younger than Joel.

00:47:27.107 --> 00:47:27.447

Phil: Yes.

00:47:27.467 --> 00:47:28.487

Tom: He's not middle-aged.

00:47:29.047 --> 00:47:31.647

Phil: And he hasn't been through the kinds of things that Joel has been through.

00:47:32.207 --> 00:47:42.427

Phil: But I think, you know, so it's easy now to look back and go, oh, we were all fools, not we, but we were all fools for giving a Game of the Year last year, which I didn't.

00:47:42.467 --> 00:47:47.747

Phil: It wasn't even in my consideration, namely because I didn't play it until this year.

00:47:47.767 --> 00:48:00.367

Phil: But it is easy to bash on them in retrospect, but you do have to remember that these guys were making these games in a two-month turnaround time, which is pretty spectacular.

00:48:00.387 --> 00:48:00.787

Phil: And you know what?

00:48:00.787 --> 00:48:04.207

Phil: I think that actually would benefit a lot of game development.

00:48:04.987 --> 00:48:17.907

Phil: They had a great tools engine in place, but were able to turn things around more quickly, because sometimes that run-and-gun mode to doing any sort of creative work is where you get your best stuff.

00:48:18.027 --> 00:48:20.007

Tom: And it means you can't over-edit as well.

00:48:20.687 --> 00:48:22.147

Phil: Yeah, or cut.

00:48:22.167 --> 00:48:23.627

Phil: Yeah, edit, exactly.

00:48:24.227 --> 00:48:29.147

Phil: Cut things down too short or overly plan things or have things lined up.

00:48:29.747 --> 00:48:41.487

Phil: Amy Henning, I was listening to an interview with her and Ken Levine last night, and she was watching a movie and she was saying that, you know, there's a scene where a car parks up, drives up and parks in front of a building.

00:48:42.267 --> 00:48:57.787

Phil: And in order for that film production company to do that one shot, you know, they had to get a license from the city, they had to rent the certain car, they had to pay the property, first scout the location, pay the people that they wanted to put in that location.

00:48:58.407 --> 00:49:03.427

Phil: Because of the licensing from the city, you'd have to schedule it for a certain time and date.

00:49:03.927 --> 00:49:08.127

Phil: You'd have to have, because of the unions, the team's just there to get the lighting in place.

00:49:09.227 --> 00:49:17.047

Phil: Catering would have to be provided because of, you know, union rules for SAG and on and on and on.

00:49:17.047 --> 00:49:22.427

Phil: Just to do this one shot of a car pulling up in front of a house for three seconds, right?

00:49:23.167 --> 00:49:28.347

Phil: And she was talking about how liberating it is when you're developing a game that you don't have any of that.

00:49:28.387 --> 00:49:32.567

Phil: You don't have to have all of this pre-thought and planning in place.

00:49:32.567 --> 00:49:37.647

Phil: You can just basically design stuff off the cuff, throw stuff away and all the rest of it.

00:49:38.187 --> 00:49:44.227

Phil: And I think that looseness is a tremendous benefit that game development has over motion pictures.

00:49:45.767 --> 00:50:04.547

Phil: But there is still this, you know, games now have become so expensive and require so many people to make that sometimes games do suffer from over planning and over production, which is why people are drawn to these smaller games from smaller teams these days, because that seems to be more creative.

00:50:04.567 --> 00:50:06.527

Phil: There's a lot more freeform development going on.

00:50:07.067 --> 00:50:09.547

Phil: So I guess that basically closes out my point.

00:50:09.567 --> 00:50:13.387

Phil: Does that close out your coverage of The Raven, Legacy of the Master Theif?

00:50:13.407 --> 00:50:20.367

Tom: It does indeed, and I'm just going to put this out here now and just force you to actually do this on the next podcast.

00:50:20.387 --> 00:50:27.567

Tom: One of our major features in our big show, episode 15 is going to be a discussion, a spoilerific discussion on The Walking Dead.

00:50:28.387 --> 00:50:29.127

Phil: Oh, why not?

00:50:29.267 --> 00:50:31.867

Tom: And now that it's live on air, we have to do it.

00:50:32.007 --> 00:50:38.687

Phil: Yeah, and because we have to do it anyway before I forget that I've played it or any of the aspects of it.

00:50:38.707 --> 00:50:39.307

Phil: So let's do it.

00:50:39.427 --> 00:50:42.087

Phil: We'll do a Walking Dead spoiler show next week.

00:50:42.287 --> 00:50:43.027

Tom: It's set in stone.

00:50:43.027 --> 00:50:44.887

Tom: Now, I believe you finished Killzone 3.

00:50:45.387 --> 00:50:49.127

Phil: That's right, and this is a game that also suffers from overdevelopment, right?

00:50:49.147 --> 00:50:49.287

Tom: Yep.

00:50:49.547 --> 00:50:55.587

Phil: I finished Killzone 3, and my biggest problem with it is that this is a very generic game.

00:50:55.847 --> 00:51:00.807

Phil: At the end of the day, at the end of the game, this could have been anything.

00:51:00.827 --> 00:51:02.527

Phil: It didn't have to be a Killzone game.

00:51:03.507 --> 00:51:06.467

Phil: And the sad thing about it is that there were levels...

00:51:06.847 --> 00:51:08.767

Phil: It did get better as the game went on.

00:51:09.727 --> 00:51:19.147

Phil: There were levels toward the end of the game that were enjoyable, but again, as I said last week, they were in the old Killzone style.

00:51:20.387 --> 00:51:36.907

Phil: And it was so sad to have to be shipped back to these non-Killzone levels, like where you're flying around in jet packs and jet fighter planes and space ships and all the rest of it, where you just really wanted to play old Killzone.

00:51:37.307 --> 00:51:41.407

Phil: And then I'm flying around in outer space shooting up space stations, you know.

00:51:43.647 --> 00:51:45.927

Phil: It wasn't enjoyable for me.

00:51:46.147 --> 00:51:47.287

Phil: And at least it was quick.

00:51:48.307 --> 00:51:53.267

Phil: But then they'd throw you back into these old levels that remind you of what greatness the game does have.

00:51:53.967 --> 00:51:57.207

Phil: And I just thought it was a game that was spread too thin.

00:51:57.487 --> 00:52:03.627

Phil: So I looked up the original release date to see if this was a game that was rushed to make like Christmas, you know, like make November.

00:52:04.027 --> 00:52:05.467

Phil: And it was released in February.

00:52:05.547 --> 00:52:14.827

Phil: So it really had no reason exterially, commercially to be rushed, unless Sony just basically said to them, look guys, finish it up, get it out.

00:52:15.287 --> 00:52:24.287

Tom: I don't think I don't think there's any evidence that it was rushed for what I can remember from the release and the press leading up to the release.

00:52:25.167 --> 00:52:26.407

Phil: No, yeah, you're right.

00:52:26.427 --> 00:52:31.167

Phil: It wasn't like they had, you know, abruptly announced a release date.

00:52:31.487 --> 00:52:36.487

Phil: And also Sony plays great respect with Gorilla and all of its top tier developers.

00:52:36.507 --> 00:52:43.727

Phil: They don't really pressure them to get stuff done, as we can see from Team Eco and Gran Turismo, right?

00:52:46.247 --> 00:52:46.527

Phil: Yeah.

00:52:46.547 --> 00:52:48.047

Phil: So, yeah, that's probably not the case either.

00:52:48.887 --> 00:52:51.527

Phil: But all in all, it just made me want to play Killzone 2 again.

00:52:51.547 --> 00:52:59.747

Phil: And it left me, it was supremely annoying because it seemed to have an endless array of endings.

00:53:01.187 --> 00:53:05.067

Phil: Just like, okay, this is obviously the big ending, a space battle.

00:53:05.087 --> 00:53:06.827

Phil: We're in space blowing up stuff.

00:53:08.447 --> 00:53:17.167

Phil: The ending was good where you, spoilers, if you, spoilers, when we dropped the nuclear bomb on the planet.

00:53:17.247 --> 00:53:20.587

Tom: That final sequence is just brilliantly over the top.

00:53:21.347 --> 00:53:22.247

Phil: Yeah, it's great.

00:53:22.267 --> 00:53:25.207

Phil: And, you know, again, stolen from Call of Duty, that's fine.

00:53:25.447 --> 00:53:26.267

Phil: Drop a nuke on it.

00:53:26.567 --> 00:53:34.307

Phil: But I did like the character, I did like the acting at the end where they basically is like, you know, wow, we just dropped a nuclear bomb on the planet.

00:53:34.327 --> 00:53:34.527

Tom: Yeah.

00:53:34.667 --> 00:53:37.667

Phil: And we aren't getting any traffic from the planet.

00:53:38.807 --> 00:53:41.907

Phil: Seems like we wiped out all life on the planet.

00:53:42.067 --> 00:53:43.347

Tom: That's what the ISA do.

00:53:44.007 --> 00:53:48.087

Phil: And then the female character said something like, well, how many people did we just kill?

00:53:48.107 --> 00:53:48.307

Tom: Yeah.

00:53:49.007 --> 00:53:49.447

Phil: Right.

00:53:49.467 --> 00:53:51.387

Phil: And then that's an unanswered question.

00:53:52.167 --> 00:53:53.247

Phil: I thought that was nice.

00:53:53.507 --> 00:53:54.647

Phil: I thought that was thoughtful.

00:53:54.807 --> 00:53:58.927

Phil: And I would love to see what Guerrilla Games would do with the PC.

00:53:59.247 --> 00:54:03.347

Phil: I would love to see these guys not on a console platform.

00:54:03.427 --> 00:54:12.927

Phil: I would love to see them basically go the same route as the Metro guys, you know, and make a PC game a no apologies shooter.

00:54:13.587 --> 00:54:29.607

Phil: And I think a lot of the direction that they get for this army of two stuff and the jet packs and the mechs and the flying around in spaceships and stuff probably comes from Sony of America and focus groups and all the rest of it.

00:54:31.167 --> 00:54:34.787

Phil: And I'd like to see them make an unapologetic guerrilla game shooter.

00:54:34.787 --> 00:54:41.207

Phil: And hopefully at some point, the Killzone franchise will die and then they'll be allowed to go off and do what they want to do.

00:54:43.967 --> 00:54:47.707

Phil: So, yeah, so all in all, I found it to be pretty disappointing.

00:54:47.707 --> 00:54:50.167

Tom: Yep, I don't disagree with any of that.

00:54:50.187 --> 00:54:52.807

Tom: Though I believe you read my review, so perhaps I did.

00:54:52.827 --> 00:54:56.707

Phil: Oh, your review was actually more entertaining than the game.

00:54:57.827 --> 00:55:02.267

Phil: I reread it today, and you can find it at gameunder.net.

00:55:02.287 --> 00:55:02.467

Tom: Yep.

00:55:03.067 --> 00:55:04.767

Phil: Just use our search tool, it's excellent.

00:55:04.787 --> 00:55:07.607

Phil: Just put in Killzone 3 and it'll come up immediately.

00:55:09.227 --> 00:55:10.407

Phil: I thought your review was great.

00:55:10.427 --> 00:55:12.087

Phil: You thought it was too beard-centric.

00:55:12.807 --> 00:55:14.387

Phil: I thought it was not beard-centric enough.

00:55:14.847 --> 00:55:17.107

Tom: I cannot believe that I thought it was too beard-centric.

00:55:17.127 --> 00:55:18.507

Tom: Do you have the quote where I said that?

00:55:19.687 --> 00:55:23.187

Phil: No, just last week you said you were talking to me about the review.

00:55:26.747 --> 00:55:29.107

Tom: No, no, no, I said it was very beard-centric.

00:55:29.627 --> 00:55:33.967

Phil: Yeah, your review, no, I thought it wasn't beard-centric enough.

00:55:34.307 --> 00:55:40.927

Phil: It's certainly something that was interesting to talk about because like you said with The Elderly, there's not a lot of beards in games anymore.

00:55:41.127 --> 00:55:45.827

Tom: I think they're coming in now after beards are coming into fashion at the moment.

00:55:46.267 --> 00:55:47.187

Phil: Well, they're growing in.

00:55:47.207 --> 00:55:49.027

Phil: I mean, the generation is six years old.

00:55:50.027 --> 00:55:53.367

Phil: It would only make sense that we're starting to see the long beards come out.

00:55:54.907 --> 00:55:56.427

Phil: No, it's an excellent review.

00:55:56.447 --> 00:56:00.627

Phil: I'd encourage everyone to go to gameunder.net to search for Killzone 3 and you'll find it.

00:56:00.647 --> 00:56:02.127

Phil: Or just Killzone, it'll come up.

00:56:04.067 --> 00:56:07.527

Phil: And yeah, not much more to really say about it.

00:56:08.347 --> 00:56:13.627

Phil: I stopped reading when I got to the multiplayer section because I didn't play the multiplayer aspect of the game.

00:56:13.947 --> 00:56:15.827

Phil: Is multiplayer in Killzone 3?

00:56:16.727 --> 00:56:19.947

Phil: You said it's worse than in Killzone 2, right?

00:56:19.967 --> 00:56:26.167

Tom: Before we get to that, because that is a part of what I'm about to say, my views on it were pretty close to yours, right, if I remember correctly?

00:56:28.067 --> 00:56:32.427

Tom: And so I was basically extremely disappointed by how generic it was, right?

00:56:33.027 --> 00:56:33.987

Phil: Yes.

00:56:34.007 --> 00:56:42.987

Phil: I was actually, when I was reading it, I had read it prior to playing the game several months ago when the review first came out, and so I had basically forgotten everything about it.

00:56:43.827 --> 00:56:51.227

Phil: So I was actually shocked to see that you agreed, or I agreed with you, or however you want to say it, on so many aspects of the game.

00:56:53.527 --> 00:56:55.387

Phil: It's just a lost opportunity.

00:56:55.407 --> 00:56:56.027

Phil: But you know what?

00:56:56.047 --> 00:56:59.527

Phil: I mean, Killzone 3, it probably didn't hurt in sales, right?

00:56:59.547 --> 00:57:00.147

Phil: It probably-

00:57:00.167 --> 00:57:01.367

Tom: Sold as much as two, I believe.

00:57:01.387 --> 00:57:02.927

Tom: They both sold around two million.

00:57:03.947 --> 00:57:04.607

Phil: Yeah.

00:57:04.707 --> 00:57:13.667

Phil: And our voices are pretty distinctly outnumbered by the majority in terms of how this game was received.

00:57:13.687 --> 00:57:28.147

Tom: Well, just for that in a second, just on the previous point you're making, so basically I was as disappointed as you are with it, and my opinion of the Killzone 2 campaign is probably a lot longer than yours, yet I had the same level of disappointment, right?

00:57:29.487 --> 00:57:30.567

Phil: I guess so.

00:57:30.587 --> 00:57:33.367

Phil: I mean, I was absolutely impressed with Killzone 2.

00:57:34.067 --> 00:57:37.747

Phil: I was really in love with Killzone 2, so if you were not, then-

00:57:38.227 --> 00:57:38.567

Phil: Yep.

00:57:38.587 --> 00:57:47.187

Tom: So now, the multiplayer of Killzone 2, I consider to be among the greatest ever competitive multiplayer games ever.

00:57:47.627 --> 00:58:01.027

Tom: And the amount of generification, if that is a word, and if it is and it should be, of a single player is probably dialed up even higher in the multiplayer.

00:58:01.427 --> 00:58:07.767

Tom: So imagine if I could have that degree of disappointment and probably a seething level of outrage-

00:58:08.667 --> 00:58:12.607

Tom: From the King of Player campaign, you can imagine my thoughts on the multiplayer.

00:58:13.227 --> 00:58:22.187

Phil: Yeah, that would blow because for you, you heavily invest in a game for its multiplayer and for it to come up short.

00:58:22.207 --> 00:58:25.927

Phil: I know with Uncharted 2, I think Uncharted 2 has tremendous co-op.

00:58:26.187 --> 00:58:29.107

Phil: We really have to play sooner rather than later.

00:58:29.567 --> 00:58:32.927

Phil: And I was kind of disappointed with the co-op in Uncharted 3.

00:58:33.567 --> 00:58:35.367

Phil: To the same extent, I don't play a lot of-

00:58:35.787 --> 00:58:42.487

Phil: Basically, the games that I play online, multiplayer, you could count on your ears, right?

00:58:42.807 --> 00:58:47.307

Phil: It's basically Halo 2 and Uncharted 2, right?

00:58:49.027 --> 00:58:51.207

Phil: And I played both of those exhaustively.

00:58:52.307 --> 00:58:55.967

Phil: So for me, when it came to Uncharted 3, I was disappointed.

00:58:57.747 --> 00:59:00.187

Phil: But yeah, so we should definitely do that.

00:59:00.327 --> 00:59:14.127

Tom: Now as to your other point about the general critical reception, as I said on the previous podcast, and I still do stand by this statement, I think that it does actually do what it does extremely well.

00:59:14.167 --> 00:59:21.827

Tom: And on normal, from what I played of hard, this wouldn't apply because on normal, it was extremely easy even on hard.

00:59:21.847 --> 00:59:24.587

Tom: So on normal, it would be incredibly boring.

00:59:24.887 --> 00:59:49.507

Tom: But on hard, my experience of the game was that it did actually do Call of Duty style gameplay, as well as Call of Duty does it all, and in some areas better, because it had a wider range of high points and low points, whereas Call of Duty is entirely high point after high point, right?

00:59:50.227 --> 00:59:51.367

Phil: Ridiculously so.

00:59:51.387 --> 00:59:58.787

Tom: To the point where it affects it negatively, because the high points have less impact.

00:59:59.467 --> 01:00:02.627

Phil: It's basically a roller coaster theme park with no lines.

01:00:02.927 --> 01:00:17.467

Phil: You just go from one roller coaster to the next with no time to breathe, no time to reflect on the last ride, and in fact, it diminishes each roller coaster ride as you go, because you're like, you know, in Southern California, we have Magic Mountain.

01:00:17.487 --> 01:00:20.807

Phil: I know Six Flags have roller coaster parks all over the United States.

01:00:21.347 --> 01:00:27.767

Phil: But basically, the first roller coaster you get on in the day, you're just like, amazing, that was amazing.

01:00:27.787 --> 01:00:29.527

Phil: I just want to get right back on it again.

01:00:30.547 --> 01:00:36.247

Phil: By around 2 o'clock, you're just like, what?

01:00:36.587 --> 01:00:43.687

Phil: You could be getting on roller coasters that pound you into a wall of nerve, and you're just like, yeah, that was all right.

01:00:44.227 --> 01:00:47.947

Phil: And you're like, but wait, let's go back on that roller coaster ride we had earlier.

01:00:47.967 --> 01:00:49.047

Phil: And you're like, well, which one?

01:00:51.647 --> 01:00:59.067

Phil: So yeah, it's an over saturation, an over, you know, it's just too indulgent, too abundant.

01:00:59.087 --> 01:00:59.687

Tom: Yeah.

01:01:00.387 --> 01:01:16.047

Tom: But I do think once, going back to it now recently, as I played a bit before your impressions, and getting over the extreme disappointment, I do actually think that it was extremely well designed first person shooter in many aspects.

01:01:16.067 --> 01:01:21.107

Tom: And certainly the best copy of Call of Duty that I can think of.

01:01:21.127 --> 01:01:28.527

Tom: And I think one of the reasons for that is the great achievement of Call of Duty is not the fact that it hits high points constantly.

01:01:28.547 --> 01:01:37.447

Tom: The great achievement of Call of Duty is the way that they streamline the gameplay and make it so incredibly accessible.

01:01:37.467 --> 01:01:46.187

Tom: And that the game almost plays itself, but does so in a certain way where it's still somewhat entertaining to a degree.

01:01:48.187 --> 01:02:12.867

Tom: Killzone 3 is the only game that I can think of that copied Call of Duty and understood that, whereas most games, the copy Call of Duty, they see all the explosions everywhere and they copy that, but they forget that the reason that that doesn't become too much of an issue or over saturation is because of the way that they've made the gameplay so streamlined and accessible.

01:02:13.527 --> 01:02:19.847

Phil: It was an artful and studied copy, and you wouldn't expect anything less from guerrilla games, right?

01:02:20.167 --> 01:02:28.947

Phil: And as you said, so many other people just lift the artifice of the game, but not the actual gameplay that is so special, and that is where Killzone 3 succeeded.

01:02:29.587 --> 01:02:36.407

Phil: When you were playing as a mech, that was disappointing because basically it was just a different camera angle, it was you going at a different speed.

01:02:37.247 --> 01:02:41.187

Phil: But when you were in a jet pack, that was a legitimate experience.

01:02:41.207 --> 01:02:43.447

Phil: It was quite different from the regular gameplay.

01:02:44.087 --> 01:02:49.987

Phil: When you were in a spaceship, it wasn't as if you were walking around in space at a very high rate of speed with lesser gravity.

01:02:50.667 --> 01:02:52.927

Phil: You really actually did feel like you were flying something.

01:02:53.767 --> 01:02:55.067

Phil: So for that I give them kudos.

01:02:55.087 --> 01:03:09.087

Phil: It's just that I don't like to see brands that have their own legitimate source of inspiration and artistic expression having to copy someone else.

01:03:10.767 --> 01:03:13.187

Phil: Converse All-Stars are great shoes.

01:03:13.407 --> 01:03:20.427

Phil: I would hate them to have to start making Nike rip-offs because those ones sell better.

01:03:20.567 --> 01:03:22.447

Phil: No, you have your own original voice.

01:03:24.047 --> 01:03:27.527

Phil: And they should be true to that voice.

01:03:27.547 --> 01:03:29.087

Tom: And I could not agree with you more.

01:03:30.167 --> 01:03:35.807

Tom: The final thing though, the final point is once again, that line at the end is so brilliant.

01:03:35.887 --> 01:03:41.767

Tom: And it is yet more evidence for my theory, which is surely by now the case.

01:03:41.787 --> 01:03:43.507

Tom: And even you can agree with it, right?

01:03:44.647 --> 01:03:46.987

Tom: My guerrilla game Paul Verhoeven theory.

01:03:48.167 --> 01:03:48.967

Phil: Very much so.

01:03:49.407 --> 01:03:50.987

Phil: And which episode would we have to go back?

01:03:51.007 --> 01:03:53.507

Phil: That's like four episodes ago where we discussed that at length.

01:03:53.527 --> 01:03:56.547

Tom: Yeah, where we just randomly end up discussing that for 40 minutes.

01:03:56.747 --> 01:03:58.267

Tom: Four hours because it kills one minute.

01:03:59.747 --> 01:04:00.707

Phil: That was a great show.

01:04:02.647 --> 01:04:02.867

Tom: Yeah.

01:04:02.887 --> 01:04:13.547

Phil: Hey, speaking of first person shooters, before we go into some of the news here, I played Halo CE, the HD remake, Halo Combat Evolved.

01:04:13.567 --> 01:04:13.707

Tom: Yep.

01:04:14.707 --> 01:04:16.547

Phil: I played it on the 360 last night.

01:04:16.727 --> 01:04:20.487

Phil: And this is really cool, right?

01:04:20.507 --> 01:04:22.427

Phil: Basically, you're playing the game in HD.

01:04:22.447 --> 01:04:22.687

Tom: Yep.

01:04:23.267 --> 01:04:27.287

Phil: You can press select at any time and it gives you the old graphics.

01:04:28.107 --> 01:04:28.727

Tom: Still in HD?

01:04:30.987 --> 01:04:32.407

Phil: In HD, but...

01:04:32.667 --> 01:04:34.127

Tom: But obviously everything is low res.

01:04:34.687 --> 01:04:35.487

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

01:04:35.507 --> 01:04:36.707

Phil: Yeah, it's the same...

01:04:36.947 --> 01:04:42.947

Phil: So if you're looking at a boulder in the original, there's no textures or anything on it.

01:04:42.967 --> 01:04:44.847

Phil: It's just the shape of a boulder, right?

01:04:45.087 --> 01:04:46.407

Phil: Unless you're up close to it.

01:04:47.027 --> 01:04:50.307

Phil: Whereas in this game, it actually adds the textures and all the rest of it.

01:04:51.507 --> 01:04:52.447

Phil: It's still a great game.

01:04:53.327 --> 01:04:54.927

Phil: That's pretty much all that needs to be said about it.

01:04:54.947 --> 01:05:03.227

Phil: I mean, if you don't have an operating Xbox anymore and you do have an Xbox 360, it's a great way to play the original Halo Combat Evolved.

01:05:03.247 --> 01:05:05.407

Phil: Still the best Halo game that they've made.

01:05:05.427 --> 01:05:09.187

Phil: Yeah, it's still the best game that they made.

01:05:09.787 --> 01:05:11.767

Phil: Halo 4 comes very close to it.

01:05:13.167 --> 01:05:22.267

Phil: But I just thought it was great that they added that, because as I'm playing it, I'm going, okay, as soon as it starts, it looks like crap, right?

01:05:22.827 --> 01:05:26.267

Phil: It looks like a low-end PC game today.

01:05:27.107 --> 01:05:29.607

Phil: That's what the new version looks like.

01:05:29.627 --> 01:05:31.647

Tom: Do you mean a game on low settings?

01:05:32.507 --> 01:05:33.747

Phil: Yes, yeah.

01:05:33.767 --> 01:05:37.247

Tom: I'm guessing it actually looks worse than that, because this is not a joke.

01:05:37.267 --> 01:05:46.147

Tom: A lot of PC games on low settings, at least not necessarily all low, but a lot of the settings on low actually look quite similar to the console version.

01:05:47.087 --> 01:05:47.987

Phil: Right, right.

01:05:48.467 --> 01:05:49.427

Phil: Yes, yes.

01:05:50.307 --> 01:05:53.687

Phil: This actually looks like a low-spec version of it, though.

01:05:53.747 --> 01:06:08.687

Phil: So basically, I was like, okay, they took a game from the year 2000 that looked better than games on a high-spec PC, and they made it look as good as a mid-range spec PC in 2013.

01:06:08.987 --> 01:06:10.947

Phil: And guess which one looks better, right?

01:06:11.267 --> 01:06:13.687

Tom: Well, isn't that a problem with Bungie?

01:06:13.847 --> 01:06:19.947

Tom: They've been one of the developers, as far as I can remember, that really struggled with adapting to HD.

01:06:20.247 --> 01:06:28.507

Tom: I mean, there were huge complaints about the look of Halo 3, and the fact that it wasn't even at a proper HD resolution when it was released.

01:06:29.147 --> 01:06:38.647

Phil: Yeah, well, this version, of course, was made by 343 Industries, but the original was made by Bungie, and that's included in its entirety.

01:06:39.147 --> 01:06:48.947

Phil: And of course, Bungie's games have always looked god awful when it comes to facial animations and cutscenes, and that is no different in this 343 version as well.

01:06:49.127 --> 01:06:51.207

Phil: They look ridiculous.

01:06:52.727 --> 01:07:01.907

Phil: But fortunately, the gameplay is intact, and I found myself enjoying the HD version just as much as the low res version.

01:07:01.927 --> 01:07:06.767

Phil: I figured I'd mainly be playing the low res version, but they actually do a good job with the HD.

01:07:07.647 --> 01:07:08.567

Phil: They don't like...

01:07:09.067 --> 01:07:12.967

Phil: And the other thing is they don't like replace the trees, they just make them high res.

01:07:13.287 --> 01:07:21.927

Phil: So sometimes the trees look chunky, but what is good about that is that it doesn't interfere with sight lines that you might be used to from the original.

01:07:22.387 --> 01:07:26.507

Phil: So if you were used to a certain tree being a certain width or a boulder being a certain...

01:07:27.487 --> 01:07:30.207

Phil: in a certain placement, they haven't changed that at all.

01:07:30.247 --> 01:07:32.287

Phil: They've just basically added textures to it.

01:07:32.807 --> 01:07:34.347

Phil: And for that I was appreciative.

01:07:35.787 --> 01:07:38.527

Phil: So with that, let's go straight into the news.

01:07:39.667 --> 01:07:41.527

Phil: We're just going to jump all over the place here.

01:07:41.807 --> 01:07:44.027

Tom: As we've been doing everywhere else in the podcast?

01:07:44.547 --> 01:07:52.347

Phil: Yeah, I mean, the first thing I want to say is that Ryan Davis from Giant Bomb is dead.

01:07:52.367 --> 01:07:54.727

Phil: And obviously everyone who listens to this podcast knows that.

01:07:54.787 --> 01:08:07.447

Phil: And I don't want to acknowledge it in some soppy kind of way, primarily because this was the most affecting death that I have ever interacted with with someone I didn't know personally.

01:08:08.347 --> 01:08:13.687

Phil: So usually when a personality or celebrity, your sports figure dies, I don't particularly care.

01:08:13.927 --> 01:08:23.527

Phil: So there's nothing we can say here that wasn't best said by the last Giant Bomb cast, which everyone's probably already listened to if they care.

01:08:24.307 --> 01:08:26.447

Phil: So we're not going to go into it in any great detail.

01:08:26.467 --> 01:08:31.927

Phil: But if you listen to someone in a podcast for three hours a week for four or five years, you feel like you know them.

01:08:32.647 --> 01:08:34.347

Phil: And that's why it was so affecting to me.

01:08:34.387 --> 01:08:42.867

Phil: And listening to the obituary podcast on giantbomb.com, it was actually freeing for me because I found out that I didn't really know him.

01:08:43.567 --> 01:08:53.927

Phil: You know, when his actual friends talked about him and talked about the kind of guy he is and the kinds of stuff that he got up to and all that sort of thing, I realized that I did not know who Ryan Davis was at all.

01:08:55.147 --> 01:09:06.007

Phil: Which was actually quite liberating for me and gave me some sense of closure because I realized that no matter how much you think you might know a personality of celebrity, you really don't know him unless you know him.

01:09:07.367 --> 01:09:17.967

Phil: But I'll obviously still miss him because he was a wonderful broadcaster and a great inspiration and just always an entertaining person to talk to.

01:09:18.287 --> 01:09:25.067

Tom: And I will say something else except it would be a throwback to the same famous flippant Oculus Rift comment.

01:09:25.647 --> 01:09:29.727

Phil: Okay, Dota 2 is now released.

01:09:29.747 --> 01:09:31.467

Phil: Next new story.

01:09:31.467 --> 01:09:34.147

Phil: GameStop is no longer taking PlayStation 4 pre-orders.

01:09:34.627 --> 01:09:42.107

Tom: So is this, do we know that, didn't Sony say that they had an unlimited supply or something ridiculous like that?

01:09:42.227 --> 01:09:44.367

Phil: Sony said that they have an unlimited supply.

01:09:44.387 --> 01:09:46.527

Phil: There won't be any waiting for the game.

01:09:46.967 --> 01:09:56.247

Phil: So basically what this means is that GameStop has now taken so many orders that they probably don't have the credit to take any more orders.

01:09:57.327 --> 01:09:57.527

Tom: Or...

01:09:57.547 --> 01:09:58.927

Phil: If you know what I mean.

01:09:58.927 --> 01:10:00.127

Tom: Sony State was bullshit.

01:10:01.767 --> 01:10:05.927

Phil: Or that, but there's plenty of other outlets that are still offering pre-orders, right?

01:10:06.127 --> 01:10:12.787

Phil: So I know Dick Smith Electric here in Australia, you can still get pre-orders there without any problem whatsoever.

01:10:12.807 --> 01:10:14.787

Phil: Put down 50 bucks, you're going to get it on launch day.

01:10:14.807 --> 01:10:19.407

Tom: GameStop would either go to a place for pre-ordering a console.

01:10:19.427 --> 01:10:21.427

Tom: For many people though, would they not?

01:10:21.447 --> 01:10:25.827

Tom: So you might expect them to run out first even if they had the largest selection.

01:10:25.967 --> 01:10:26.647

Phil: Oh yeah.

01:10:27.367 --> 01:10:28.087

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

01:10:28.847 --> 01:10:32.847

Phil: Yep, and I absolutely guarantee more people pre-order it from GameStop than anywhere else.

01:10:33.707 --> 01:10:35.807

Phil: But at a certain point, they had to cut that off.

01:10:36.187 --> 01:10:39.947

Phil: So I guess they don't want to disappoint their customers, so good for them.

01:10:40.707 --> 01:10:43.607

Phil: And that's in the US and North America as well.

01:10:44.107 --> 01:10:49.607

Phil: Last of Us sold more, speaking of sales, Last of Us sold more than 3.4 million worldwide.

01:10:50.307 --> 01:10:51.087

Phil: So that's good.

01:10:51.567 --> 01:10:53.447

Tom: Unless it was published by Square Enix.

01:10:53.927 --> 01:10:54.987

Phil: Why would that be not good?

01:10:55.507 --> 01:10:57.407

Tom: Because they want their games to sell 8 million.

01:10:57.427 --> 01:10:57.987

Tom: 8 million?

01:10:59.747 --> 01:11:00.447

Phil: That's right.

01:11:02.547 --> 01:11:07.847

Phil: Well, I know they had 200,000 copies relegated or set aside or printed for Japan.

01:11:08.287 --> 01:11:13.607

Phil: In Japan, it got the dreaded Sero rating, which means your games have to come in red cases.

01:11:14.207 --> 01:11:16.567

Phil: You cannot show the case publicly.

01:11:16.587 --> 01:11:19.107

Phil: It has to be kept behind the counter.

01:11:19.287 --> 01:11:20.667

Phil: It's something you have to ask for.

01:11:20.687 --> 01:11:25.927

Phil: It's basically the highest level of pornography in Japan.

01:11:25.967 --> 01:11:28.647

Tom: I don't even know that child pornography.

01:11:28.667 --> 01:11:31.227

Phil: Which you can get freely.

01:11:31.967 --> 01:11:35.687

Phil: The Last of Us had 200,000 set aside in Japan.

01:11:35.707 --> 01:11:38.287

Phil: They sold 180,000 of them in the first week.

01:11:39.127 --> 01:11:46.987

Phil: It's nice to see a game that's a little bit different and not easily digestible, getting that level of sales.

01:11:47.367 --> 01:11:50.447

Phil: Also, keep in mind it's console exclusive.

01:11:50.467 --> 01:11:57.747

Phil: Imagine what it would be doing if it were also available on the Wii U or PlayStation or on the Xbox 360.

01:11:57.887 --> 01:11:58.487

Tom: Absolutely.

01:11:59.087 --> 01:12:04.207

Phil: Speaking of the Xbox 360, the Summer of Arcade games have been listed and dated.

01:12:04.227 --> 01:12:14.087

Phil: They're going to come out sometime, but basically the games are Brothers, Charlie Murder, a game called Flashback, and a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle game.

01:12:15.067 --> 01:12:22.267

Tom: I don't think I've heard of any of these games, except possibly for Flashback, but it's such a generic name, I may not have heard of it anyway.

01:12:22.487 --> 01:12:24.187

Phil: Yeah, no one cares.

01:12:24.527 --> 01:12:33.547

Tom: But you did miss out on something that many people do care about, or at least I do, and that is that Insomniac Games themselves are developing a U Ratchet and Clank game.

01:12:34.327 --> 01:12:34.727

Tom: Yeah.

01:12:36.227 --> 01:12:37.527

Phil: I'm sorry, did I chuckle?

01:12:38.067 --> 01:12:38.907

Tom: What's wrong with that?

01:12:39.627 --> 01:12:48.947

Phil: Well, as we've effusively discussed in almost every podcast, we both agree that Kill Resistance 3 is the best first person shooter of the generation.

01:12:50.167 --> 01:12:54.327

Phil: You pretty much invariably at some point in the show always say...

01:12:54.727 --> 01:12:58.407

Tom: Remember Resistance 3 and that it's the best game of the generation.

01:12:58.427 --> 01:13:01.887

Tom: I mean, I don't think it's even the best first person shooter of the generation.

01:13:01.907 --> 01:13:04.067

Tom: I think it's the best game of the generation.

01:13:04.087 --> 01:13:04.787

Phil: Exactly.

01:13:05.087 --> 01:13:16.607

Phil: And then Insomniac, you know, to their own detriment, goes off reservation and makes a Facebook game with avatars, right?

01:13:16.627 --> 01:13:19.827

Phil: Because they're like, no, we've been a Sony exclusive party, but guess what?

01:13:19.847 --> 01:13:20.987

Phil: We don't need Sony no more.

01:13:21.007 --> 01:13:22.587

Phil: We're going to make a Facebook game.

01:13:22.727 --> 01:13:24.487

Phil: So they go make a Facebook game.

01:13:25.247 --> 01:13:26.827

Phil: Fail tremendously.

01:13:26.847 --> 01:13:27.427

Tom: Shock horror.

01:13:27.447 --> 01:13:27.707

Phil: Right?

01:13:28.387 --> 01:13:28.667

Phil: Yep.

01:13:29.167 --> 01:13:32.727

Phil: Then they make some other crap shooter game, right?

01:13:33.407 --> 01:13:34.527

Phil: Fuse, right?

01:13:35.387 --> 01:13:40.387

Phil: Cross platform and fail ridiculously.

01:13:40.407 --> 01:13:45.207

Phil: So now they've blown all their money from Ratchet and Clank and the Resistance franchise, right?

01:13:45.987 --> 01:13:47.047

Phil: This is just so great.

01:13:47.047 --> 01:13:47.607

Phil: I love this.

01:13:47.667 --> 01:13:52.747

Phil: So they come crawling back to Sony and they'll now announce a new Ratchet and Clank game.

01:13:52.767 --> 01:14:00.607

Phil: They're going back to the well and they're going to make it a PlayStation 3 exclusive later this fall, which is no time at all.

01:14:00.607 --> 01:14:02.487

Phil: This is like four months.

01:14:02.507 --> 01:14:02.727

Tom: Yeah.

01:14:03.187 --> 01:14:06.447

Tom: Well, Pursuit has been in development for a while already.

01:14:06.927 --> 01:14:07.947

Phil: Well, they've been working.

01:14:07.967 --> 01:14:11.667

Phil: I don't see how because they're not a two-game studio and they've been working on Fuse.

01:14:12.327 --> 01:14:16.307

Phil: I just don't see how they can get this game spat out in that amount of time and how it can be good.

01:14:16.327 --> 01:14:18.087

Phil: And this is supposed to be a full version.

01:14:18.107 --> 01:14:23.487

Phil: It's not supposed to be some half-assed expansion like the other Ratchet and Clank games.

01:14:23.507 --> 01:14:28.007

Tom: It is only a $30 title though, so I'm thinking maybe it's going to be something like a...

01:14:28.767 --> 01:14:29.187

Phil: Quick hit.

01:14:29.207 --> 01:14:32.787

Tom: Yeah, six-hour to 10-hour, the most, sort of, platformer.

01:14:33.527 --> 01:14:36.527

Phil: Yeah, they're lowering expectations to the lowest absolute level.

01:14:36.547 --> 01:14:36.807

Tom: Yeah.

01:14:37.987 --> 01:14:46.127

Tom: And I think the most amazing thing about this was the fact that they had what appeared to be a riff gate in their trailer.

01:14:46.147 --> 01:14:51.267

Tom: So everyone was thinking, there's going to be some amazing crossover with Jack and Baxter, right?

01:14:51.367 --> 01:14:53.647

Phil: Someone at the VG Press pointed that out, Leo.

01:14:54.327 --> 01:14:56.747

Phil: And I was like, absolutely.

01:14:56.767 --> 01:15:00.167

Phil: I mean, you just had to look at the guy's ears and you would have known immediately.

01:15:00.567 --> 01:15:13.607

Tom: And the thing about that, though, is I don't think you can take from that picture that it was a riff gate, because you look at a riff gate, this is a science fiction extreme cliché, right?

01:15:13.627 --> 01:15:19.587

Tom: So everyone that does this circle portal has their own little differentiating signature.

01:15:19.887 --> 01:15:22.667

Tom: I think Stargate has triangles.

01:15:22.807 --> 01:15:24.507

Tom: I think it's three triangles or something.

01:15:25.147 --> 01:15:28.367

Tom: And Jack and Baxter has rectangles sticking in.

01:15:28.907 --> 01:15:30.447

Tom: There were no rectangles on this.

01:15:31.047 --> 01:15:32.427

Phil: Yeah, that's an extra angle.

01:15:32.507 --> 01:15:32.767

Tom: Yeah.

01:15:33.507 --> 01:15:34.727

Tom: This was just circles.

01:15:34.967 --> 01:15:42.427

Tom: I don't think you could look at that and say that is a rift gate because it doesn't have the signifying thing that makes it a rift gate.

01:15:42.447 --> 01:15:45.107

Tom: That's just a generic portal.

01:15:45.787 --> 01:15:53.087

Tom: So to me, my take from that was this is going to be what the portals look like in Ratchet and Clank.

01:15:53.107 --> 01:15:59.647

Tom: And I guarantee there's going to be some sort of poor thing in this Ratchet and Clank game that looks like that.

01:15:59.927 --> 01:16:06.547

Tom: And Ratchet and Clank has always been sci-fi, so I don't think that jumping to the conclusion that that was Jak and Daxter was at all fair.

01:16:06.567 --> 01:16:09.467

Tom: But the character silhouette did look quite like that.

01:16:09.487 --> 01:16:11.747

Phil: Yeah, yeah, the character silhouette is what did it for me.

01:16:12.107 --> 01:16:13.087

Phil: You know, forget the portal.

01:16:13.107 --> 01:16:14.347

Tom: But everyone was saying the portal.

01:16:15.607 --> 01:16:17.427

Phil: Ah, well, they're idiots.

01:16:17.467 --> 01:16:21.627

Phil: I was going by the shape of the character's ears, so that makes me probably king of the idiots.

01:16:21.727 --> 01:16:22.247

Tom: Exactly.

01:16:22.267 --> 01:16:26.687

Tom: And can I just say I want another Jak and Daxter game developed by Naughty Dog.

01:16:27.227 --> 01:16:28.207

Phil: Okay, you can say that.

01:16:28.747 --> 01:16:30.547

Phil: And maybe, what if it comes out on the Vita?

01:16:30.567 --> 01:16:31.307

Phil: Then you'll be screwed.

01:16:31.327 --> 01:16:34.387

Tom: Yeah, well, at least it will exist.

01:16:35.047 --> 01:16:39.887

Phil: Yeah, I think if it does exist, they'll probably test the waters with a digital download game only.

01:16:41.067 --> 01:16:43.387

Phil: Just to see if there is still interest in that sort of thing.

01:16:43.687 --> 01:16:45.027

Phil: And you know, here's a thing.

01:16:45.907 --> 01:16:46.587

Phil: Here's someone.

01:16:46.627 --> 01:16:48.107

Phil: I'm thinking of the children.

01:16:48.267 --> 01:16:50.227

Phil: Where are the children's games?

01:16:50.247 --> 01:16:54.767

Phil: Where are the Jak and the Daxters and the Ratchet and the Clank and the Sly Coopers?

01:16:55.687 --> 01:16:57.107

Phil: I guess it's Skylanders, right?

01:16:57.187 --> 01:17:11.687

Tom: The fact of the matter is, of course, well yeah, they're Skylanders, but the fact of the matter is, what is the biggest children's game series of the generation and what has resulted in there being no, quote, children's games, end quote.

01:17:11.827 --> 01:17:12.627

Tom: Call of Duty.

01:17:12.847 --> 01:17:13.707

Phil: I was going to say Angry Bird.

01:17:13.727 --> 01:17:15.227

Tom: No, Call of Duty is the answer to that.

01:17:15.547 --> 01:17:16.607

Phil: Alright, fair enough.

01:17:17.727 --> 01:17:21.147

Phil: This is where THQ would have come in with all their licensed Pixar games.

01:17:21.247 --> 01:17:23.387

Phil: And then Disney isn't doing their own games either.

01:17:23.387 --> 01:17:25.327

Phil: I mean, they're going to do that Disney Infinity thing.

01:17:25.767 --> 01:17:27.427

Tom: Also known as Disney Skylanders.

01:17:28.007 --> 01:17:29.027

Phil: So that was our quick news.

01:17:29.047 --> 01:17:30.987

Phil: Now we're going to go to long news.

01:17:32.687 --> 01:17:40.447

Phil: Probably the most biggest news, non-Ryan Davis news this week, was that GTA, for the first time, Rockstar released gameplay footage.

01:17:40.727 --> 01:17:43.307

Phil: They've never before released gameplay footage of a game.

01:17:44.327 --> 01:17:48.127

Phil: They've always just done their cinematic teasers.

01:17:48.147 --> 01:18:09.227

Tom: I think there's no doubt, and given the content of the gameplay teaser, there was no doubt this was because everyone ended up basically thinking GTA IV was shit, because the stuff that they're highlighting in the trailer is everything that people complained about GTA IV, and they're basically saying, oh look, hey, the shooting's good this time, the driving's good this time.

01:18:09.367 --> 01:18:13.487

Phil: This is, to use a basketball term, a full court press.

01:18:13.527 --> 01:18:18.607

Phil: They are, I think they looked at basically the response to The Last of Us, right?

01:18:18.767 --> 01:18:23.327

Phil: And Naughty Dog's been eating their lunch in terms of what they've always prided themselves in.

01:18:23.587 --> 01:18:33.767

Phil: I think Rockstar North has always ridiculously staked their claim out, as they are the masters of storytelling, which is of course absolutely ludicrous.

01:18:33.787 --> 01:18:36.767

Phil: They're not even the masters of cartoon storytelling.

01:18:36.787 --> 01:18:40.027

Tom: They're not even the masters of creating a plot.

01:18:40.867 --> 01:18:41.827

Phil: No, not at all.

01:18:42.287 --> 01:18:44.347

Phil: In fact, they're the masters of killing a plot.

01:18:44.447 --> 01:18:48.447

Phil: Because once you start getting interested in the story, they start weighing it down with a billion fetch quests.

01:18:49.407 --> 01:18:56.227

Phil: Now, as frequent listeners will know, but to explain to new listeners, I'm actually a huge fan of the Grand Theft Auto series.

01:18:56.247 --> 01:18:58.067

Phil: I've played them all, beaten them all, except for two.

01:18:58.447 --> 01:19:01.087

Tom: Except for two games or except for GTA 2?

01:19:01.107 --> 01:19:03.947

Phil: Except I haven't beaten Vice City and I haven't beaten San Andreas.

01:19:04.107 --> 01:19:10.087

Phil: San Andreas was because there's a bug, and Vice City was because I just got stuck and I can't get by it.

01:19:10.107 --> 01:19:10.687

Phil: So whatever.

01:19:12.527 --> 01:19:14.187

Phil: But I'm a huge fan.

01:19:14.807 --> 01:19:18.367

Phil: But I've never been a fan of Rockstar, because they're not very sympathetic people.

01:19:18.867 --> 01:19:20.827

Phil: They don't come out and talk to the press.

01:19:21.387 --> 01:19:24.587

Phil: They don't give interviews, but for once every six or seven years.

01:19:25.907 --> 01:19:29.447

Phil: And they seem to have a tremendous level of arrogance about themselves.

01:19:30.127 --> 01:19:38.347

Tom: Minus the interviewers, what they strike me as, sorry, minus the fact that they don't do interviews, they're basically the Kanye West of gaming.

01:19:38.687 --> 01:19:39.787

Phil: I wish that they were.

01:19:39.807 --> 01:20:02.967

Tom: Well, that's the thing, because I mean, the appeal of Kanye West is, of course, the interviews, so you get him doing all this random, hilarious crap, but he's openly doing it, whereas Rockstar have got all the arrogance and conceitedness in some areas, but you don't get the hilarity of them publicly making a fool of themselves, right?

01:20:03.007 --> 01:20:04.187

Phil: Exactly, exactly.

01:20:04.307 --> 01:20:05.447

Phil: No, I agree entirely.

01:20:06.467 --> 01:20:11.727

Phil: So anyway, back to the gameplay footage, this was pretty extraordinary.

01:20:11.887 --> 01:20:18.207

Phil: They had a female voiceover for it, which was basically like a corporate spokesperson kind of thing.

01:20:18.967 --> 01:20:20.587

Phil: It was not what I was expecting at all.

01:20:20.607 --> 01:20:27.427

Phil: I thought the gameplay footage would have been basically just showing you gameplay footage with musical montage and voice acting.

01:20:27.447 --> 01:20:35.267

Tom: Can I just ask, is sublime a genuine American pronunciation of sublime, or did she just slur that word?

01:20:35.927 --> 01:20:37.567

Phil: You pronounce sublime sublime.

01:20:38.227 --> 01:20:41.567

Phil: Yeah, you would never pause or hyphenate sublime.

01:20:41.587 --> 01:20:42.727

Tom: Okay, because she did.

01:20:43.627 --> 01:20:44.767

Tom: Quite spectacularly.

01:20:45.227 --> 01:20:50.947

Phil: If she was speaking slowly, then you could say the experience was sublime.

01:20:51.647 --> 01:20:53.207

Phil: No, that still doesn't work.

01:20:53.807 --> 01:20:56.087

Phil: No, there's no excuse for sublime.

01:20:57.127 --> 01:21:01.687

Phil: And just the way she was speaking, this to me was a downer of a...

01:21:02.327 --> 01:21:04.807

Phil: Because you took the last one, right?

01:21:04.947 --> 01:21:07.607

Phil: The teaser, and this reminds me, I've got to preorder this game.

01:21:09.007 --> 01:21:15.127

Phil: If you look at the teaser for it, it was like, I am going down to the store right now and buying or stealing this game.

01:21:15.387 --> 01:21:18.447

Phil: You know, where they had that trailer that we talked about on air.

01:21:18.747 --> 01:21:20.227

Phil: It just made you want the game.

01:21:20.607 --> 01:21:22.047

Phil: And this one was more of a...

01:21:22.767 --> 01:21:27.287

Phil: If you look to your left, you'll see that the Grand Canyon is coming up.

01:21:27.967 --> 01:21:36.447

Phil: Note how spectacular the geological forms have taken over the millennia that took to create the Grand Canyon.

01:21:37.087 --> 01:21:38.687

Phil: It just put me to sleep.

01:21:38.747 --> 01:21:40.007

Phil: It just killed me.

01:21:40.587 --> 01:21:43.787

Phil: I still want the game, but it just totally deadened my interest.

01:21:43.807 --> 01:21:49.387

Phil: But once you turned her off and just looked at the gameplay, I thought there were some pretty interesting things in it.

01:21:49.407 --> 01:21:52.267

Phil: They actually showed you how the character switching was going to work, for one.

01:21:52.567 --> 01:21:56.767

Phil: Which I think is going to be either the best or worst part of this game.

01:21:56.787 --> 01:22:06.367

Tom: Well, the thing that worries me about this is this could end up being the most annoying, chore-like gameplay that also really negatively affects other parts of the design.

01:22:06.387 --> 01:22:13.867

Tom: For example, for certain things, you might have to spend like five minutes putting these three different characters in certain strategic areas.

01:22:13.887 --> 01:22:17.347

Tom: And let's be honest, it's not going to be a deep strategy game.

01:22:17.447 --> 01:22:24.487

Tom: So it's just going to be incredibly chore-like if the result is that you've got to spend so much time setting people up.

01:22:24.507 --> 01:22:34.447

Tom: And the other thing is it can also greatly negatively affect the game, the combat, it could make it really scripted affairs and all that sort of stuff.

01:22:34.467 --> 01:22:45.427

Tom: And I think that's kind of another issue that they had with the trailer is that the stuff they're showing, because they highlight it individually, individually none of it is actually that interesting.

01:22:45.447 --> 01:22:50.287

Tom: Like the shooting in it looks like the greatest shooter ever compared to Grand Theft Auto IV.

01:22:50.447 --> 01:22:56.287

Tom: But if you compare it to other shooters, it looks like boring, generic, mediocre crap, right?

01:22:56.307 --> 01:23:04.207

Tom: If you highlight any one area of a GTA game, it's not going to look that interesting, which is exactly what they've done here.

01:23:04.907 --> 01:23:18.147

Phil: Well, the appeal to a Grand Theft Auto game, when Grand Theft Auto III first came out, was like, oh my god, it's a racing game, oh my god, it's a third person action game, oh my god, it's a third person brawler, right?

01:23:18.847 --> 01:23:20.587

Phil: Oh my god, it's an open world game.

01:23:21.467 --> 01:23:29.107

Phil: And before then, people were completely satisfied with buying a game like Driver, which is extremely limited.

01:23:30.047 --> 01:23:34.187

Phil: People were content to pay for Crazy Taxi, which is great.

01:23:34.207 --> 01:23:35.867

Phil: I mean, you should pay for Crazy Taxi.

01:23:35.887 --> 01:23:39.707

Phil: It's a fun driving game, but that's just one aspect of Grand Theft Auto.

01:23:40.887 --> 01:23:47.927

Phil: And now they're introducing Golf, just as Yakuza had done prior, and all these other elements as well.

01:23:47.947 --> 01:23:53.107

Phil: So their shtick has always been Jack of all trades, Master of None.

01:23:53.127 --> 01:23:54.547

Phil: That's always been their appeal.

01:23:55.107 --> 01:23:57.867

Phil: This is a one-stop shop for gaming experiences.

01:23:58.907 --> 01:24:08.167

Phil: Now, when Saints Row III, they took that even further with things like text adventures and things like that, and flying games.

01:24:08.267 --> 01:24:13.687

Phil: And they've done flying in Grand Theft Auto before as well, but the flying has always been absolutely horrible.

01:24:15.127 --> 01:24:18.567

Phil: So even in that level, they're being outdone by Saints Row.

01:24:18.587 --> 01:24:22.907

Phil: They're being outdone on the story level by Naughty Dog with The Last of Us, among many others.

01:24:22.927 --> 01:24:25.747

Tom: They're being outdone on the story level by basically everyone.

01:24:26.287 --> 01:24:27.287

Phil: Yeah, by everyone.

01:24:28.127 --> 01:24:31.067

Phil: By Pac-Man CE.

01:24:31.627 --> 01:24:32.147

Phil: So, yeah.

01:24:32.267 --> 01:24:37.707

Phil: So, in any case, this kind of dampened my anticipation for the game.

01:24:37.727 --> 01:24:40.767

Phil: Nonetheless, I will be getting it at launch and talking about it on the show.

01:24:40.787 --> 01:24:42.567

Tom: But Kojima absolutely loves it.

01:24:42.907 --> 01:24:43.707

Phil: Yes, indeed.

01:24:43.727 --> 01:24:45.467

Phil: He said that he was kind of pissed off.

01:24:45.487 --> 01:24:48.547

Phil: He says he doesn't think that his five will match their five.

01:24:48.547 --> 01:24:57.907

Tom: And all I can say is, the Metal Gear Solid 5 trailer, the gameplay they showed and the way they presented it, was in fact significantly worse than the GTA 5 trailer.

01:24:57.927 --> 01:25:00.927

Tom: So, perhaps he's on to something, at least in their presentation.

01:25:01.227 --> 01:25:07.147

Phil: Yeah, I think there are a couple of franchises that should be rested, and Metal Gear Solid is one of them.

01:25:08.147 --> 01:25:12.107

Tom: Which is an opinion that Kojima supposedly shared on many occasions.

01:25:12.787 --> 01:25:15.227

Phil: Yes, for about the last 15 years.

01:25:16.847 --> 01:25:28.267

Phil: In other big news, so Nintendo has said that when it comes to the scale of software development, Wii U and HD graphics requires about twice the human resources than before.

01:25:29.627 --> 01:25:32.867

Phil: Please allow me to explain that we may have underestimated the scale of this change.

01:25:33.207 --> 01:25:35.467

Phil: This is what led to the release delay for Pikmin 3.

01:25:35.487 --> 01:25:42.227

Phil: The overall software development took more time than originally anticipated as we tried to polish the software at a completion phase of development.

01:25:42.927 --> 01:25:51.067

Phil: So we talked in two podcasts ago about how developers had to confront HD development in this generation.

01:25:51.707 --> 01:25:55.027

Tom: We were in fact just talking about it in this podcast with Halo even.

01:25:55.687 --> 01:26:01.927

Phil: Oh yeah, and in terms of how developers had to grapple with it, but they finally come to terms with it.

01:26:01.947 --> 01:26:11.527

Phil: At first it was ridiculously expensive and resource heavy, but then they figured out how to use engines and staffing appropriately, and now they can enter this next generation.

01:26:12.127 --> 01:26:30.527

Phil: Poised pretty well to be able to make good games at a high quality with pretty limited resources, whereas Nintendo is now grappling with this a generation late for the first time, and have shockingly admitted as such with this statement.

01:26:30.987 --> 01:26:35.367

Tom: I think that's the surprising part that they've come out and said this rather than it being the case.

01:26:35.847 --> 01:26:36.687

Phil: Why would you say this?

01:26:37.007 --> 01:26:38.447

Phil: I mean, it's refreshing.

01:26:39.207 --> 01:26:56.467

Tom: Do you think maybe it is simply due to the lack of releases on the Wii U, so they think perhaps a genuine excuse or reason for the delay of Pikmin 3, which they were hyping as a release title, right?

01:26:57.507 --> 01:26:57.827

Phil: Yes.

01:26:57.847 --> 01:26:58.367

Phil: Yep.

01:26:58.787 --> 01:26:59.767

Tom: Was necessary.

01:27:00.027 --> 01:27:10.367

Tom: So the negative aspects, PR aspects of them, admitting that they're having trouble, perhaps outweigh them delaying the game without a valid excuse.

01:27:11.607 --> 01:27:18.467

Tom: If they just come out and said, we're delaying it because we want it to be perfect, everyone's going to say, well, fuck you, we just want a goddamn game.

01:27:18.487 --> 01:27:19.747

Tom: We don't care if it's not perfect.

01:27:19.907 --> 01:27:27.847

Tom: But if they come out and say, it comes across as a genuine admission of trouble, people are going to stomach it more easily.

01:27:28.567 --> 01:27:35.147

Phil: Yeah, but the problem with this is that they announced Pikmin 3, Miyamoto did offstage at E3, like four years ago.

01:27:35.187 --> 01:27:36.987

Phil: It was originally going to be a Wii title.

01:27:37.527 --> 01:27:39.467

Phil: And they're still floundering about with it.

01:27:40.967 --> 01:27:42.907

Phil: This would hurt their stock tremendously.

01:27:42.927 --> 01:27:52.307

Phil: I mean, because they're basically admitting, this would be like a Ford CEO coming forward and saying, God, you know, all these safety regulations with the seatbelts and the airbags and everything.

01:27:52.507 --> 01:27:54.947

Phil: It's like requiring twice the staff.

01:27:55.287 --> 01:27:57.407

Phil: We don't know how to make cars anymore.

01:27:57.427 --> 01:27:59.387

Phil: I mean, God, this is hard stuff.

01:27:59.447 --> 01:28:01.247

Phil: We're going to have to get robots and shit.

01:28:01.267 --> 01:28:02.567

Phil: What the hell is going on?

01:28:02.867 --> 01:28:06.027

Phil: We can't even bring out a game we first launched four years ago.

01:28:06.047 --> 01:28:07.707

Phil: No, it's a bloody nightmare.

01:28:07.727 --> 01:28:08.347

Phil: Let me tell you.

01:28:08.367 --> 01:28:11.187

Phil: You know, I mean, this hurts them.

01:28:11.547 --> 01:28:12.987

Phil: This is not voting well.

01:28:13.447 --> 01:28:17.467

Phil: I mean, the fact that they're telling the truth about it is nice for me as a gamer.

01:28:17.687 --> 01:28:19.187

Phil: I like candor.

01:28:19.187 --> 01:28:21.387

Phil: It'd be nice to know these things up front.

01:28:21.927 --> 01:28:25.467

Phil: But basically, they're looking confident as it is for not releasing the game.

01:28:25.787 --> 01:28:34.447

Phil: So coming forward and saying, we weren't competent enough to come up with the full planning in terms of researching what it takes to release an HD game.

01:28:34.767 --> 01:28:38.287

Phil: So that's why all our games are late.

01:28:38.307 --> 01:28:47.747

Phil: That doesn't provide any excuse for the third party support, because the third parties are already chest deep in how to do HD games.

01:28:48.047 --> 01:28:51.067

Phil: And in fact, the Wii U should be a slam dunk no brainer.

01:28:51.767 --> 01:28:54.507

Phil: It should just be another channel that you release your HD game on.

01:28:55.847 --> 01:28:57.547

Phil: And they're still not doing it.

01:28:58.767 --> 01:29:18.227

Phil: And you got Ubisoft out there, this is really a downer, I didn't want to really talk about this, but you got Ubisoft out there saying that Zombie U, which was the premier launch game that gamers enjoyed, lost money and they have no intention, quote, or desire to make a sequel for it.

01:29:18.447 --> 01:29:26.327

Tom: Well, I mean, if they ever did, if they were expecting that, to make a large amount of money, or even not lose money, they were utterly stupid.

01:29:26.347 --> 01:29:28.807

Tom: That is an incredibly niche game.

01:29:28.867 --> 01:29:33.567

Tom: Yes, it has zombies in it, but it is an actual survival horror game, right?

01:29:33.867 --> 01:29:44.467

Tom: And you cannot make, this is a demonstrated fact, you cannot make a full budget survival horror game at the moment in gaming.

01:29:44.487 --> 01:29:46.987

Phil: I don't know if it's a full budget, but you are right.

01:29:47.267 --> 01:29:51.767

Tom: It's certainly not like it was on the level of making a niche title.

01:29:52.047 --> 01:29:53.027

Tom: It was larger than that.

01:29:53.747 --> 01:30:00.407

Phil: I recant, and you are absolutely right in the premise, because if you look at Alan Wake, that is a game that should have gotten a sequel.

01:30:00.447 --> 01:30:06.487

Phil: And if it were cross-platform, it would have gotten a proper sequel, not the American Tourist one or whatever it was called.

01:30:06.507 --> 01:30:07.547

Tom: American Nightmare.

01:30:07.567 --> 01:30:10.427

Phil: Accidental Tourist, right.

01:30:10.847 --> 01:30:13.167

Phil: That game should have gotten a full sequel, right?

01:30:13.327 --> 01:30:14.967

Phil: But because it was single platform, it didn't.

01:30:15.467 --> 01:30:20.547

Phil: And Ubisoft, though, they know what they are getting into when they release these games for these consoles.

01:30:20.567 --> 01:30:23.867

Phil: They always spam them with games like Red Steel and all the rest of it.

01:30:24.687 --> 01:30:26.427

Phil: So I just don't understand.

01:30:26.567 --> 01:30:32.607

Phil: They know what they are doing when it comes to releasing games for a new console.

01:30:32.747 --> 01:30:34.687

Phil: They know the install base is going to be low.

01:30:36.127 --> 01:30:40.767

Phil: Red Steel was a one-to-one purchase for the Wii.

01:30:41.287 --> 01:30:44.647

Phil: And I guess they were assuming it was going to be the case for Zombie U as well.

01:30:46.747 --> 01:30:50.127

Tom: I think perhaps with Zombie U, what they were doing was...

01:30:50.667 --> 01:30:54.867

Tom: because Legends was meant to come out much earlier as a Wii U exclusive, of course.

01:30:54.887 --> 01:31:06.927

Tom: So I would have looked at it as they were going to make their money on Legends, but they were going to have Zombie U as the title that many people in the company might have wanted to make.

01:31:07.627 --> 01:31:10.227

Phil: Anyway, it's a big downer and I hope it turns around.

01:31:10.247 --> 01:31:15.407

Tom: But of course, Ubisoft is actually supporting the Wii U more than basically any publisher.

01:31:15.427 --> 01:31:16.107

Phil: Anyone else.

01:31:16.307 --> 01:31:16.747

Phil: Oh yeah.

01:31:17.387 --> 01:31:18.447

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:31:18.467 --> 01:31:19.307

Phil: They're trying to own it.

01:31:20.667 --> 01:31:31.687

Phil: But having their CEO come out and say defamatory, not defamatory, but clearly negative statements about the platform in which they're most heavily invested more than any other third party is not a good sign.

01:31:31.707 --> 01:31:35.427

Phil: It's showing that he's a little bit frustrated about the level of commercial success that they're having.

01:31:35.447 --> 01:31:48.187

Tom: But him even making that statement, I think, is obviously not the same degree as Nintendo's statement, but it's the same self-damaging sort of statement because they are releasing so many titles for the console.

01:31:48.487 --> 01:31:49.807

Tom: Why are they then criticizing it?

01:31:50.327 --> 01:32:00.027

Phil: Yeah, and particularly amongst enthusiasts for Nintendo, the last thing you want to say is anything negative about Nintendo because that will wash over onto your other games, right?

01:32:00.307 --> 01:32:02.927

Phil: They'll go, screw Ubisoft because blah, blah, blah.

01:32:03.027 --> 01:32:04.427

Phil: Yeah.

01:32:04.447 --> 01:32:14.027

Phil: So to end on good news and kind of strangely ironic news, digital PlayStation 4 games, whatever that means, will be accessible from any console.

01:32:14.787 --> 01:32:25.727

Phil: This is what Microsoft was promising with the Xbox One and then took back because we were also immature and we can't apparently deserve a modern console.

01:32:26.987 --> 01:32:40.567

Phil: And so just to rub it in, this week Sony released that yeah, you'll be able to start playing any game while it's installing from the disc, which is a feature of the Xbox One, and also any digital game you buy.

01:32:40.647 --> 01:32:47.747

Phil: So if you buy Super Meat Boy 4 digitally and I come over to your house, I can just log on to my account and start playing it while it's installing.

01:32:47.767 --> 01:32:50.187

Tom: And I assume you can play these games offline, right?

01:32:51.647 --> 01:32:54.047

Phil: Since they said that you can play all games offline.

01:32:54.147 --> 01:32:57.647

Tom: So this is basically the ultimate version of PSN sharing, right?

01:32:58.647 --> 01:33:09.727

Phil: I believe, however, what this means, though, is that if I'm coming over to your house, I log on to my PSN account, and it starts downloading, I start playing Super Meat Boy 4, right?

01:33:10.707 --> 01:33:18.227

Phil: As soon as I go home and log back into my PlayStation 4, it's not going to allow synchronous logins.

01:33:18.987 --> 01:33:20.847

Phil: It'll basically say, oh, you're over here now.

01:33:21.107 --> 01:33:23.087

Phil: Okay, so you can play your games over here now.

01:33:23.367 --> 01:33:27.667

Tom: Will it then prevent you from playing games on the other console if you do not log in?

01:33:28.307 --> 01:33:28.827

Phil: Absolutely.

01:33:28.847 --> 01:33:30.327

Phil: That's terrible then.

01:33:30.347 --> 01:33:42.007

Phil: If you know that I go to bed at 8.30 every night, and you're up from 8.30 to midnight, then you could basically give you my login information, and you'd be able to log in as me and play Super Meat Boy 4.

01:33:42.567 --> 01:33:43.887

Tom: That's still below what PSN sharing is.

01:33:47.327 --> 01:33:49.787

Phil: Oh yeah, which was insane, and obviously...

01:33:49.807 --> 01:33:51.027

Tom: And an awesome feature though.

01:33:51.627 --> 01:33:54.307

Phil: Yeah, but it's something that you wouldn't expect them to include.

01:33:55.367 --> 01:33:59.267

Phil: But the very fact that they are including this, and this is the ability for me to...

01:33:59.547 --> 01:34:03.107

Phil: It's the equivalent of me saying, hey, I'm coming over to your house, what games do you want me to bring?

01:34:03.787 --> 01:34:05.967

Phil: In the past, that's been limited to physical games.

01:34:06.087 --> 01:34:14.587

Phil: Now I can also say, oh hey, and check out Thomas' Got Friends, the sequel to Thomas Was Aligned, and then you start playing it right away.

01:34:16.747 --> 01:34:17.867

Phil: No, that's not.

01:34:19.087 --> 01:34:33.947

Tom: So even though it's not full game sharing, it's something at least, and I'm just going to advertise a random article I read, which had some interesting content in it, and we'll stick the link to it in the show notes, which was A Tale of Two E3s, Xbox vs.

01:34:33.967 --> 01:34:34.947

Tom: Sony vs.

01:34:35.047 --> 01:35:14.227

Tom: Sega on MCV UK, which is interesting because it features some, I suppose you could call it interviews, with Tom Kalinsky, who was the ex-Sega America boss, and Steve Race, who was, I think, the ex-Sony boss, Sony America boss at the time as well, and it has some humorous insights into the completely different nature of E3 back then, and that Sony and Sega were attempting to work together until Sega pointed out that Sony are incompetent idiots.

01:35:14.247 --> 01:35:15.487

Tom: Why would we want to work with them?

01:35:16.187 --> 01:35:27.187

Phil: If I were in charge of either Sony or Microsoft or Nintendo back then, I would have bought up Sega, Lock, Stock and Barrel, and kept those Dreamcast teams intact.

01:35:28.447 --> 01:35:37.027

Tom: Yep, and I think, actually, probably the most interesting insight from the article was that you would have bought Sega, had you been Bill Gates back then.

01:35:37.807 --> 01:35:40.667

Phil: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

01:35:40.687 --> 01:35:44.707

Phil: And had he done so, he probably would have solved this whole malaria thing a lot quicker.

01:35:44.727 --> 01:35:45.487

Tom: Yep, exactly.

01:35:46.327 --> 01:35:49.587

Tom: If only you had done that today, we would be free of malaria.

01:35:50.967 --> 01:35:51.747

Phil: So, is that it?

01:35:51.767 --> 01:35:52.987

Phil: Are we done with the podcast?

01:35:53.007 --> 01:35:55.367

Phil: I think we've done a pretty good job so far.

01:35:55.627 --> 01:36:09.687

Tom: Well, let's pretend we are finished and act as if this is another random tangent, and going to impromptu, ignore what we said at the beginning of the podcast, this was not planned, and impromptu Bioshock interview.

01:36:10.447 --> 01:36:11.327

Tom: Sorry, preview.

01:36:11.967 --> 01:36:14.047

Phil: No, no, let's do the Bioshock interview.

01:36:14.067 --> 01:36:16.647

Phil: You can be Ken Levine.

01:36:16.847 --> 01:36:18.307

Phil: No, I'm going to be Bioshock.

01:36:19.207 --> 01:36:21.547

Phil: I'm going to be Bioshock, and just go ahead and give me the map.

01:36:21.567 --> 01:36:24.147

Tom: I'm going to be Ken Levine asking Bioshock questions.

01:36:24.887 --> 01:36:25.707

Phil: Oh, very good.

01:36:27.467 --> 01:36:29.427

Tom: Aren't you the greatest game ever made?

01:36:30.607 --> 01:36:38.267

Phil: Well, Ken, I know you're only asking that to be polite, because you already know that I'm the greatest game ever made.

01:36:38.547 --> 01:36:39.967

Phil: You made me, after all.

01:36:40.347 --> 01:36:42.287

Tom: Am I not incredibly handsome?

01:36:43.267 --> 01:36:50.267

Phil: You are incredibly handsome, and I think that all of the NPCs in the game should carry your hairy visage.

01:36:51.347 --> 01:37:00.287

Tom: And one final question, Bioshock, which do you think is better, Bioshock Infinite or Bioshock?

01:37:00.307 --> 01:37:04.647

Tom: I mean, obviously I'm asking Bioshock, but just...

01:37:04.927 --> 01:37:09.187

Phil: Well, Bioshock Infinite is kind of my grandchild.

01:37:09.327 --> 01:37:12.907

Phil: Well, actually my son, since Bioshock 2 doesn't exist.

01:37:12.927 --> 01:37:13.547

Phil: Right, Ken?

01:37:13.547 --> 01:37:14.787

Tom: That's right, that's right.

01:37:14.947 --> 01:37:27.527

Phil: So I take tremendous pride in my son, Bioshock Infinite, and as with all parents, I want my son or daughter to succeed on a level higher than I did myself.

01:37:27.547 --> 01:37:32.987

Phil: And I think at least graphically, Bioshock Infinite does that in spades.

01:37:33.847 --> 01:37:49.347

Phil: Also, the little sister in Bioshock has cleavage, so I'd have to say that my son-daughter game has cleavage, therefore it is superior to me because all I had was little sisters and big daddies.

01:37:49.427 --> 01:37:50.407

Phil: Ahem, harumph.

01:37:50.467 --> 01:37:53.587

Tom: And you know who that cleavage is based on, don't you?

01:37:56.207 --> 01:37:58.067

Tom: One of my millions of groupies.

01:37:59.987 --> 01:38:01.107

Phil: Oh, you're still Ken Levine?

01:38:01.127 --> 01:38:02.027

Phil: Oh, really?

01:38:02.047 --> 01:38:04.227

Phil: Who might that be?

01:38:05.507 --> 01:38:05.947

Tom: I don't know.

01:38:05.967 --> 01:38:06.887

Tom: I don't know their names.

01:38:06.907 --> 01:38:07.847

Tom: There's so many of them.

01:38:08.787 --> 01:38:14.167

Phil: You know, I'm really regretful up to this point that I wasn't putting on a fake voice for Bioshock.

01:38:14.187 --> 01:38:15.307

Phil: I was just using my regular voice.

01:38:15.327 --> 01:38:16.647

Tom: That's Infinite's voice, I think.

01:38:17.767 --> 01:38:20.127

Phil: Yeah, I'm Bioshock Infinite over here.

01:38:20.567 --> 01:38:21.347

Phil: Okay, here.

01:38:21.807 --> 01:38:24.767

Phil: All right, so you played Bioshock and beat it.

01:38:25.307 --> 01:38:27.547

Phil: I beat it almost a year to the day.

01:38:27.827 --> 01:38:30.247

Phil: I beat it in July 15th.

01:38:30.347 --> 01:38:30.627

Tom: Yep.

01:38:30.927 --> 01:38:34.887

Phil: And I gave the game a nine, right?

01:38:34.907 --> 01:38:35.587

Phil: Yep.

01:38:35.827 --> 01:38:38.007

Phil: I had tried to play the game two times before.

01:38:38.027 --> 01:38:40.327

Phil: I had been calling it Bioshock.

01:38:41.367 --> 01:38:42.507

Phil: I thought it was terrible.

01:38:42.887 --> 01:38:57.287

Phil: And in fact, all of my pre-memories had overwhelmed my post-memories because I had no idea until I started looking into it what my impressions of this game were from just a year ago until I went back and started reading some of my words.

01:38:57.567 --> 01:39:01.867

Phil: And apparently, I was impressed with the game, ultimately.

01:39:03.407 --> 01:39:04.427

Tom: I do not believe that.

01:39:05.147 --> 01:39:08.987

Phil: I must have made a pretty weak impression.

01:39:09.387 --> 01:39:12.307

Phil: But I think the impression that it made before we go into your review...

01:39:12.327 --> 01:39:14.787

Tom: A weak impression deserving of a 9.

01:39:17.527 --> 01:39:18.387

Phil: I will say this.

01:39:18.927 --> 01:39:24.107

Phil: I have never played a game in which I liked force powers.

01:39:24.127 --> 01:39:24.367

Tom: Yeah.

01:39:24.447 --> 01:39:24.787

Phil: Right?

01:39:25.867 --> 01:39:26.227

Phil: Never.

01:39:26.367 --> 01:39:30.907

Phil: I mean, there are tremendous examples out there of games that people love these things in.

01:39:31.607 --> 01:39:36.807

Phil: Games like Geist and Thief and Star Wars The Force Unleashed.

01:39:36.987 --> 01:39:38.367

Phil: Was that really what it was called?

01:39:38.387 --> 01:39:38.627

Tom: Yep.

01:39:39.367 --> 01:39:40.047

Phil: Oh, good God.

01:39:40.287 --> 01:39:43.207

Phil: And it's never worked for me.

01:39:43.387 --> 01:39:45.187

Phil: And it worked for me in this game.

01:39:45.807 --> 01:39:54.187

Phil: Now, having played Bioshock Infinite, I have a different opinion about force powers, which I'll go into in the coming weeks when we both talk about it.

01:39:55.267 --> 01:40:02.987

Phil: But why don't you go ahead and start your oral review and how you found this game?

01:40:03.007 --> 01:40:07.987

Tom: Well, I'm going to start with an anecdote, which could almost possibly be considered backstory.

01:40:08.007 --> 01:40:10.467

Tom: So, my apologies in advance.

01:40:10.587 --> 01:40:17.367

Tom: And you may not have even been particularly aware of this, as at the time when it came out, I believe you were still a console gamer, right?

01:40:18.307 --> 01:40:18.647

Phil: Yeah.

01:40:18.727 --> 01:40:19.007

Tom: Yeah.

01:40:19.387 --> 01:40:22.387

Tom: Well, basically, I downloaded the demo for this.

01:40:22.987 --> 01:40:28.887

Tom: I was always looking forward to it for a variety of reasons, so I actually bothered to download the demo.

01:40:29.007 --> 01:40:31.167

Tom: And guess what the demo contained?

01:40:31.507 --> 01:40:34.927

Phil: Wait, I thought it was a 360 exclusive.

01:40:35.107 --> 01:40:35.287

Tom: No.

01:40:37.827 --> 01:40:38.427

Tom: I don't think so.

01:40:38.447 --> 01:40:42.807

Tom: If it was a 360 exclusive, it very soon after came out on PC.

01:40:43.747 --> 01:40:43.987

Phil: Yeah.

01:40:44.447 --> 01:40:44.807

Tom: Yep.

01:40:44.847 --> 01:40:46.287

Tom: So guess what was in the demo?

01:40:46.927 --> 01:40:49.227

Tom: Remember, this is a promotional free demo.

01:40:50.007 --> 01:40:50.367

Phil: Yeah.

01:40:50.607 --> 01:40:51.547

Phil: Secure ROM.

01:40:52.347 --> 01:40:52.647

Phil: What?

01:40:53.147 --> 01:40:53.447

Tom: Yep.

01:40:54.007 --> 01:40:58.067

Tom: The demo of the game contained the DRM Secure ROM.

01:40:58.747 --> 01:40:59.067

Tom: Yeah.

01:40:59.207 --> 01:40:59.927

Phil: I remember this.

01:40:59.987 --> 01:41:00.227

Tom: Yeah.

01:41:02.287 --> 01:41:10.667

Tom: So, that's the first issue that the game decided to inflict upon itself.

01:41:10.827 --> 01:41:13.887

Tom: The second was, and I also in fact pre-ordered it.

01:41:14.427 --> 01:41:16.027

Phil: It was trying to copy Half-Life 2.

01:41:16.607 --> 01:41:16.927

Tom: Yep.

01:41:17.527 --> 01:41:18.567

Phil: By including Steam.

01:41:19.687 --> 01:41:20.267

Tom: Exactly.

01:41:20.287 --> 01:41:23.607

Tom: Except Secure ROM is even more useless than Steam.

01:41:24.127 --> 01:41:24.667

Phil: Oh, absolutely.

01:41:24.687 --> 01:41:46.647

Tom: Yep, so then, undeterred by this fact completely after figuring out that it was possible to remove Secure ROM at a later date after being finished with the game, I nevertheless pre-ordered it mainly due to the figurine that was part of the packing or the limited edition.

01:41:47.147 --> 01:41:57.687

Phil: I remember this vividly because I had a friend at work who pre-ordered it from Fry's Electronics and it was coming with this figurine and I was like do I really want to pre-order it?

01:41:57.707 --> 01:42:02.347

Phil: I don't know anything about Irrational Games, I'm not sure I want to pre-order it.

01:42:03.687 --> 01:42:13.247

Phil: So I did get a limited release, it comes with a nice embossed cardboard sleeve, but it didn't come with the figurine, but I remember the stories about the figurine at the time.

01:42:13.847 --> 01:42:15.987

Tom: Yep, many of them were broken.

01:42:16.927 --> 01:42:17.927

Phil: All of them were broken.

01:42:18.727 --> 01:42:32.047

Tom: And not only did yours not come in without a figurine, but Jamie Hi-Fi would in fact not give me my broken figurine and was somehow annoyed that I asked for my money back.

01:42:33.767 --> 01:42:37.267

Phil: That's the whole point why you pre-order shit to get the fucking stuff, man.

01:42:37.267 --> 01:42:38.267

Tom: Yep, exactly.

01:42:38.287 --> 01:42:41.647

Tom: Even if it's broken, I still want the thing I paid for.

01:42:42.107 --> 01:42:42.507

Tom: Yeah.

01:42:43.327 --> 01:42:45.007

Phil: Yeah, absolutely.

01:42:45.267 --> 01:42:47.527

Phil: So did you ever get your broken thing?

01:42:47.747 --> 01:42:48.487

Phil: Or did you get the refund?

01:42:48.687 --> 01:42:56.327

Tom: They refused to give it to me, so they eventually, with much outrage and disappointment, gave my money back.

01:42:57.067 --> 01:43:00.607

Tom: It was not until there was a steam sale that I considered buying the game again.

01:43:00.887 --> 01:43:08.527

Tom: I think I paid about $5 for it, which is a fair price for a game without a figurine.

01:43:08.787 --> 01:43:13.747

Tom: The figurine was probably worth about $5 itself, but I wanted my damn figurine.

01:43:14.347 --> 01:43:19.887

Phil: I think I can speak on behalf of Ken Levine, since I've listened to all of his podcasts, and you can listen to his podcasts.

01:43:19.907 --> 01:43:25.807

Phil: He has a show called The Rational Podcast, where he interviews famous developers, so I think at this point I know him.

01:43:25.827 --> 01:43:30.147

Tom: Do you think this consists of him asking them how great Bioshock is?

01:43:31.787 --> 01:43:32.787

Tom: Yep.

01:43:32.867 --> 01:43:42.547

Tom: With the anecdote out of the way, it is actually relevant to the first point I'm going to begin with, which is dedicated to King of Old School from GameSpot.

01:43:42.647 --> 01:43:48.447

Tom: And it's going to be a point that I think you were going to be, perhaps, genuinely outraged about.

01:43:48.467 --> 01:44:04.127

Tom: Now, the reason why the figurine was such, apart from the very fact that I paid for it, the other reason I wanted it even broken was because those were pretty damn awesome figurines, as cheaply made as they were, they looked excellent.

01:44:04.147 --> 01:44:16.647

Tom: And the reason for that is the art style in Bioshock, which is all the characters, including the big daddies and the like, look not even slightly, but exactly like toys, correct?

01:44:18.187 --> 01:44:19.387

Phil: Embarrassingly so.

01:44:19.447 --> 01:44:27.807

Phil: And there is no greater barrier for me to, hurdle for me to have to cross than the aesthetic of the non-playable characters in this game.

01:44:28.547 --> 01:44:30.647

Phil: It is astonishingly bad.

01:44:30.687 --> 01:44:32.507

Tom: It is astonishingly good.

01:44:33.487 --> 01:44:45.647

Tom: And this art style made this probably, I can't think of a game, a non-PC game, because of course I did play this on PC, but it is first and foremost a console game.

01:44:45.667 --> 01:44:52.667

Tom: I cannot think of a console game from 2007 that has technically held up as well with the graphics.

01:44:52.687 --> 01:44:54.167

Tom: And the reason for that is...

01:44:54.527 --> 01:44:55.007

Phil: Wrong.

01:44:55.167 --> 01:44:55.747

Tom: No.

01:44:56.007 --> 01:44:57.007

Tom: I'm in fact correct.

01:44:57.027 --> 01:44:57.647

Tom: I think you're fine.

01:44:57.667 --> 01:44:58.567

Tom: But the reason for that is...

01:44:58.587 --> 01:44:58.867

Phil: Condemned.

01:44:59.387 --> 01:45:00.007

Phil: Condemned.

01:45:00.027 --> 01:45:00.787

Tom: And the reason...

01:45:00.987 --> 01:45:03.827

Tom: Well, actually, I haven't played Condemned yet, but just shut up for a minute.

01:45:05.007 --> 01:45:20.927

Tom: The reason for that is the fact that, and it is clearly a deliberate visual choice based on what Infinite looks like, and as far as I can see anyway, in the game itself, they are meant in fact to look like toys.

01:45:21.047 --> 01:45:34.427

Tom: And this is not just in their immediate appearance, but when they get burnt and various injuries and such like that happens to them, they also look like mangled toys as well.

01:45:34.707 --> 01:45:46.727

Tom: So it's actually a consistent visual style, which you don't find in a game that might have toy-like looking characters by accident generally.

01:45:47.207 --> 01:45:58.787

Tom: And the thing is, you look at it, look at the character models, compare them directly to Bioshock 2, which no longer has such a toy-like look.

01:45:59.467 --> 01:46:02.907

Tom: It's going for a more realistic sort of visual style.

01:46:03.447 --> 01:46:18.887

Tom: And Bioshock actually looks less dated because it's an art style that was pretty much successfully created without being hindered by the technical limitations of an early console release in the generation.

01:46:19.647 --> 01:46:21.707

Phil: Yeah, you're making the Wind Waker argument, right?

01:46:21.727 --> 01:46:25.687

Phil: Which is basically, it's an artistic choice, therefore, it still looks good to this day.

01:46:26.087 --> 01:46:28.447

Phil: Which is a valid argument for Wind Waker.

01:46:29.207 --> 01:46:34.067

Phil: There is no reason why human beings should appear to be made of tin in Bioshock.

01:46:35.947 --> 01:46:38.987

Tom: But there's no reason that Link should be a cartoon either.

01:46:40.147 --> 01:46:42.687

Phil: Except for the fact that the entire world is a cartoon.

01:46:42.967 --> 01:46:51.307

Tom: But the entire world in Bioshock also follows the same tinny look and toy-like look as the characters.

01:46:51.467 --> 01:46:53.307

Phil: They're supposed to be humans, though.

01:46:53.707 --> 01:46:55.567

Phil: So they should look like humans.

01:46:55.587 --> 01:47:01.907

Tom: I believe, while Link is not technically a human, he is a human with elongated ears.

01:47:03.247 --> 01:47:05.447

Phil: Yeah, set that aside, right?

01:47:05.547 --> 01:47:15.567

Phil: Because this thing, I need to know what this is, because in Bioshock Infinite, all the NPCs move in robotic fashion.

01:47:17.307 --> 01:47:18.667

Phil: And so what are they saying?

01:47:18.747 --> 01:47:23.327

Phil: I mean, they clearly in Bioshock knew that these looked terrible, right?

01:47:23.567 --> 01:47:25.187

Phil: They all look like tin toys.

01:47:25.227 --> 01:47:27.787

Phil: They look like tin toys with enamel painting.

01:47:28.167 --> 01:47:30.187

Tom: And that's why they look awesome, not terrible.

01:47:30.207 --> 01:47:33.887

Phil: And is that, was that an artistic choice or was this completely clueless?

01:47:33.887 --> 01:47:44.827

Tom: No, I think that you don't have the same issue that you have in Infinite with the strange movements of the characters because of the way that the story is told, but we'll get to that in a minute.

01:47:44.847 --> 01:47:55.787

Tom: But as far as the visual concept, this is, I don't know, I don't see how you could think this was by accident because the entire world has the same consistency in design.

01:47:56.247 --> 01:48:39.647

Tom: The world, and it's not just in visual look as well, but the way the world is designed, and it's not necessarily to such a deep level that they're thinking we're going to make everything look like toys, but the architectural design of the areas, to me, basically followed the same sort of design of toy houses and the like, where you've got a certain general sort of architectural style you're attempting to replicate, and to do it in a sort of pseudo realistic way, but very miniaturized and very focused, where it then becomes completely different to what it's actually replicating, right?

01:48:40.287 --> 01:48:43.147

Phil: Well, this is exactly what one of my points from last year was.

01:48:43.167 --> 01:48:45.287

Phil: Number one, the level designs are painful.

01:48:45.647 --> 01:48:55.207

Phil: They look, they are like a small shopping mall, which isn't designed, a small shopping mall isn't designed to move you from place to place.

01:48:55.367 --> 01:48:59.287

Phil: It's designed to trap you in areas so that you spend money.

01:49:00.787 --> 01:49:06.667

Phil: These are the things that are horrible about Bioshock is that the characters look like tin robots.

01:49:06.807 --> 01:49:15.767

Phil: The levels are like in a dollhouse, rather, where no design is, it's not designed for traffic flow.

01:49:15.787 --> 01:49:20.207

Phil: It's basically designed because, well, you're in this room and you like this room, we're going to play in this room.

01:49:20.607 --> 01:49:22.987

Phil: If you need to go to another room, then you will figure it out.

01:49:24.127 --> 01:49:32.147

Phil: There's not a flow as there is an architecture where, okay, there's a system set up to freely move you from one point to the next.

01:49:32.647 --> 01:49:46.227

Phil: Now, you say this is deliberate, it has to be deliberate because it's so bad that no one playing this game could say, you really sold on this tin stuff, right?

01:49:46.447 --> 01:49:48.607

Phil: You know this looks like shit, right?

01:49:48.707 --> 01:49:49.887

Phil: You know this looks like shit.

01:49:51.147 --> 01:49:57.867

Tom: It's not just that, it's also consistent because this is in, it has to be deliberate also because of the extreme consistency.

01:49:57.887 --> 01:50:02.427

Tom: It's not like these are mistakes they're making even with reasonable regularity.

01:50:02.447 --> 01:50:05.407

Tom: It's throughout the entire game, every aspect of it.

01:50:05.847 --> 01:50:07.507

Phil: So it has to be an artistic choice.

01:50:08.507 --> 01:50:12.327

Tom: And it's one that I appreciate and you obviously despise.

01:50:12.347 --> 01:50:18.427

Tom: So we disagree there, but it's not even just in the architectural design and visual design.

01:50:18.447 --> 01:50:27.007

Tom: It's also in the design of the plot and also of the dialogue and the way that the story is told.

01:50:27.207 --> 01:50:35.487

Tom: One of the interesting things about the way that the story is told is which buys perfectly into the dollhouse design.

01:50:35.727 --> 01:50:49.247

Tom: Of course, another interesting thing about dollhouse is exactly what you said where you move there are these certain rooms that you basically get trapped in and there's no logic or design to the connection between these areas.

01:50:50.687 --> 01:50:56.927

Tom: This is not just in the general geography of the game, it's also in the storytelling itself.

01:50:56.987 --> 01:51:05.467

Tom: So while you might be listening to the people talking to you as you're going along, you're then going to be trapped in a room as a story scene plays out.

01:51:07.447 --> 01:51:19.847

Tom: So it's also in the storytelling as well, and I can easily see if this did not appeal to you, I do not understand how you could give this game a 9 out of 10.

01:51:21.287 --> 01:51:26.747

Phil: I don't see how I could give this game a 6 out of 10 in remembering it.

01:51:26.767 --> 01:51:38.187

Phil: The story was terrible, the level design was terrible, the combat was terrible, the visual style was terrible, the AI of the NPCs was terrible, they're all just runners.

01:51:38.647 --> 01:51:40.987

Phil: They basically see you and then run up to you.

01:51:42.387 --> 01:51:47.947

Tom: I don't know, once again, this to me creates an excellent aesthetic overall.

01:51:48.947 --> 01:52:01.107

Tom: In the dialogue, which is, by the way, one of the best pastiches in gaming, which is not to say that it's a particularly great pastiche, but by gaming standards, it's one of the best.

01:52:02.027 --> 01:52:17.867

Tom: They're basically copying just general pulp dialogue from, say, 1940s up to the 1960s, and they do a reasonable job of it.

01:52:17.947 --> 01:52:34.987

Tom: Also, not just starting the dialogue, but the voice acting is so ridiculously ham-fisted and over-the-top, which it should be because it's copying radio-style drama voice acting from once again the same time period to the 40s and the 60s.

01:52:35.187 --> 01:52:47.927

Tom: But the reason that it is so excellent as a pastiche and far above any game that I can think of as far as literally just doing a pastiche is concerned is because it doesn't just do the 60s.

01:52:47.947 --> 01:53:08.207

Tom: While it is clearly based in and around 1960, the pastiche as all of the best pastiches do looks beyond the exact time period the pastiche is copying and takes on elements from the culture, from cultural styles leading up to the time period in question.

01:53:08.427 --> 01:53:24.747

Tom: Because of course if you want to create a more authentic and believable representation of any time period, you can't just say okay, let's just copy whatever came out in 1960.

01:53:24.967 --> 01:53:29.027

Tom: Because what came out in 1960 was just a small part of 1960.

01:53:29.047 --> 01:53:42.047

Tom: You've got to look back to what was fashionable or not even fashionable, what was around in 1960 from older eras and what was going out in 1960 that was therefore uncool and all that sort of stuff.

01:53:42.087 --> 01:53:53.947

Tom: And this copies enough stuff from pre-1960s to be a much more complex and successful pastiche than the vast majority of attempts of pastiche in video gaming.

01:53:55.187 --> 01:54:02.327

Phil: I disagree entirely because even by its chronology, it does indeed take place in 1960.

01:54:02.747 --> 01:54:13.667

Phil: However, this is a place that is locked in the 1930s, which is why you have the Art Deco stylings and everything else, the libertarian garbage.

01:54:14.307 --> 01:54:21.567

Phil: And I don't mean that as a commentary on current libertarian politics because I am apolitical for this podcast.

01:54:22.167 --> 01:54:31.927

Phil: But what I'm saying is the over-the-top and rand philosophy or philosophizing that goes on in this game is ridiculous.

01:54:32.847 --> 01:54:35.467

Phil: I'm not making a comment on the political philosophy itself.

01:54:35.767 --> 01:54:37.587

Phil: So is that apologetic enough, do you think?

01:54:37.867 --> 01:54:38.167

Tom: No.

01:54:38.847 --> 01:54:39.727

Phil: Okay, so...

01:54:39.947 --> 01:54:42.607

Tom: We need another few minutes of you saying that.

01:54:43.107 --> 01:54:52.247

Phil: So basically what I'm saying is, yes, your point is correct, but I don't think it applies to this game because the setting is a time capsule.

01:54:52.867 --> 01:54:55.407

Phil: It's something that has been separated away from the world.

01:54:55.887 --> 01:55:01.107

Phil: So even though it takes place in 1960, I never actually thought about that while I was playing the game.

01:55:01.147 --> 01:55:06.307

Phil: I always just pictured myself as being in 1930s Chicago kind of thing.

01:55:07.147 --> 01:55:19.747

Tom: Well, no, I think you can't look at it that way because it is going in over 30 years, even if it is stuck in 1930, the society is going to and culture there is going to progress.

01:55:19.967 --> 01:55:31.007

Tom: And obviously, of course, they didn't come up with their own progression, which is of course a problem, but it's still an excellent 1960s prestige for those reasons.

01:55:31.027 --> 01:55:35.447

Tom: And I think you do need to get anything out of this game.

01:55:35.487 --> 01:55:41.207

Tom: And I would say probably any Ken Levine games is you need to ignore its intentions.

01:55:42.127 --> 01:55:56.367

Tom: And because, as you said, it's in all its hype, it was presented as the Ayn Rand stuff being some and all the press that got all the praise, it was presented as being some amazing philosophical statement, right?

01:55:56.987 --> 01:55:57.307

Phil: Right.

01:55:57.667 --> 01:55:59.047

Tom: That's completely out of bullshit.

01:55:59.067 --> 01:56:01.467

Tom: It's not even over the top Ayn Rand criticism.

01:56:01.927 --> 01:56:12.227

Tom: It's got nothing whatsoever to do with anything closely related to any philosophical stance whatsoever.

01:56:12.307 --> 01:56:26.467

Tom: There is, and it's not even, and presumably they meant to treat it in a better, more complex way, but it is so ridiculously absurd and over the top that it doesn't come through whatsoever.

01:56:26.687 --> 01:56:28.167

Tom: What happened in society?

01:56:28.487 --> 01:56:34.547

Tom: Someone had a pretty awesome idea, went off and built this amazing thing, but oh shit, drugs ruin the society.

01:56:35.107 --> 01:56:37.767

Tom: What the fuck does that have to do with the philosophy?

01:56:37.787 --> 01:56:44.847

Tom: If this had been a totalitarianism or communist society, what the fuck were they going to do when Adam came around differently?

01:56:45.387 --> 01:56:50.227

Phil: In this game, the libertarian philosophy is expressed only in placard form, right?

01:56:50.247 --> 01:56:57.107

Phil: It's only these broadly painted quotes that you see up in the wall, or you hear Rand talk about, right?

01:56:58.107 --> 01:56:59.167

Phil: In the script.

01:56:59.487 --> 01:57:04.287

Phil: But the actual game itself has nothing to do with libertarianism.

01:57:04.307 --> 01:57:05.107

Phil: You're absolutely right.

01:57:08.827 --> 01:57:11.207

Phil: I mean, I'd have to go back and look at some of the art for that.

01:57:11.367 --> 01:57:23.127

Phil: But your larger point is absolutely correct in that, in a libertarian society, you would have a complete legalization of drugs, right?

01:57:23.147 --> 01:57:32.447

Phil: So, if this game were truly putting together a libertarian philosophy, the very last thing that they'd be projecting was that the society was ripped apart by drugs.

01:57:32.807 --> 01:57:36.767

Tom: Well, they do actually, and I think this is possibly a large misinterpretation.

01:57:36.787 --> 01:57:43.727

Tom: I assume this is due to you not having played the game in a year, but it is not a libertarian game.

01:57:43.747 --> 01:57:48.087

Tom: It is a criticism of libertarianism rather than pro-libertarianism.

01:57:48.547 --> 01:57:56.767

Phil: Right, but what I'm saying is, as it is widely reviewed and thought of, they're like, oh, these guys are pro-libertarian.

01:57:56.827 --> 01:57:57.127

Tom: What?

01:57:57.147 --> 01:57:57.867

Tom: Are you serious?

01:57:58.487 --> 01:57:58.907

Tom: Yes!

01:57:59.007 --> 01:57:59.347

Phil: What?

01:57:59.927 --> 01:58:08.547

Phil: And Bioshock 2 was supposed to be a reaction to that, to show that, oh, well, you know, other forms of politics are also great.

01:58:08.547 --> 01:58:10.407

Phil: And I forget what the criticism of Bioshock 2 was.

01:58:10.427 --> 01:58:11.667

Tom: Who the fuck came up with this?

01:58:12.627 --> 01:58:15.247

Phil: I think Brennan Sinclair from gamespot.com.

01:58:16.967 --> 01:58:17.867

Phil: This is mind-blowing.

01:58:17.887 --> 01:58:21.967

Phil: If you listen to the Bioshock 2 podcast they did a couple of years ago.

01:58:21.987 --> 01:58:24.147

Phil: Yeah, go ahead.

01:58:25.747 --> 01:58:28.267

Tom: Yeah, I do not believe that.

01:58:28.287 --> 01:58:28.627

Phil: Sorry.

01:58:28.647 --> 01:58:29.687

Tom: That is incredible.

01:58:30.047 --> 01:58:32.707

Phil: You asked for a direct citation and I gave it to you.

01:58:32.727 --> 01:58:33.567

Tom: That is unbelievable.

01:58:33.587 --> 01:58:43.027

Tom: And the thing is they attempt to do that whole thing with the drugs because, of course, the whole thing is, Adam, let them do whatever the fuck they want and be so amazing.

01:58:43.267 --> 01:58:48.347

Tom: But this, of course, led to this whole collapse of society and all this sort of rubbish.

01:58:48.367 --> 01:58:58.527

Tom: But the way it's presented is that it didn't crumble and get fucked up because of libertarianism, gave these people too much freedom.

01:58:58.727 --> 01:59:08.907

Tom: It got so fucked up because Adam was addictive and or at least gaining power through Adam was addictive and so society got fucked.

01:59:08.927 --> 01:59:23.767

Tom: But the problem with this is if you're going to use drugs as your major point to criticize a philosophy, what the fuck do they think is going to happen in a different type of society?

01:59:24.007 --> 01:59:30.687

Tom: It's an even stupider example because what are the countries that have the worst fucking problem with drugs?

01:59:31.107 --> 01:59:33.907

Tom: The countries that try to police it the most.

01:59:34.187 --> 01:59:36.807

Tom: What are the countries that have the least problem with drugs?

01:59:36.827 --> 01:59:41.067

Tom: It's the countries that police the least.

01:59:41.067 --> 01:59:55.547

Tom: That's not including countries that are already of a low economic standing or have poverty or other problems, which is why, of course, using Somalia as an example of libertarianism is somewhat disingenuous due to the other societal problems.

01:59:56.287 --> 02:00:00.387

Phil: Well, all I'm saying is Somalia is the only example we have of a country without a government.

02:00:00.407 --> 02:00:03.747

Tom: Okay, I see what you're saying.

02:00:03.967 --> 02:00:06.147

Phil: It's not a libertarian government, absolutely not.

02:00:06.207 --> 02:00:07.047

Phil: It's no government.

02:00:07.067 --> 02:00:07.207

Tom: Yeah.

02:00:07.727 --> 02:00:12.367

Phil: And so I was being slightly sardonic and perhaps exaggerating the point, stretching the point to say that...

02:00:12.427 --> 02:00:12.687

Phil: to be continued...

02:00:12.707 --> 02:00:20.507

Phil: That would be a Libertarian Paradise because, yeah, obviously, a true Libertarian Paradise would be closer to Washington state in the United States.

02:00:21.427 --> 02:00:24.847

Phil: To the story, have we touched on the story at all yet?

02:00:25.007 --> 02:00:43.887

Tom: I don't know, but we may as well touch on the story now, and once again, I cannot put this in another way, but it is once again an excellent piece of pastiche because it buys into various fictions of the times and the themes involved in them.

02:00:43.907 --> 02:01:10.307

Tom: So, for example, the politician that is very involved with the people of, with Joe Publick going around in direct rallying and all that sort of stuff, which is basically gone out of modern politics within the same sort of context because, of course, at least in America, as far as I'm aware, of course, you're pretty much far more knowledgeable than I am on American politics, so correct me if I'm wrong in any area.

02:01:10.987 --> 02:01:25.047

Tom: But that aspect of it's gone and it's now more the same sort of lobbying that would have been done to get votes of the lower classes is now more about business lobbying with the upper classes.

02:01:25.067 --> 02:01:46.467

Tom: And, of course, you do get these massive political rallies with everyone, but they're in a different sort of context as opposed to ones of the time where it was more a more direct exchange between the lower classes and the politicians involved, which is not to say that it was to their benefit, but it was a more direct sort of campaigning.

02:01:47.827 --> 02:01:56.267

Tom: Yeah, well, the other reason for doing it in the time period of Bioshock, which would be from the 1930s onwards, would be, of course, just coming out of the Depression.

02:01:56.967 --> 02:02:08.607

Tom: There's not going to be enough votes from the upper class because it would be so diminished, so they would have to be going after the lower middle classes, well, anyway, simply to secure a large amount of votes.

02:02:09.247 --> 02:02:09.787

Phil: Right.

02:02:09.807 --> 02:02:24.467

Phil: Well, coming out of the Depression, particularly in the United States, I mean, there was a real fear that at that time, it's difficult for us to think of here in the 21st century, but at that time, communism was a viable political platform for the West.

02:02:24.907 --> 02:02:35.827

Phil: And so having seen the greatest failure of capitalism, the Great Depression, there was a real concern amongst the status quo that the people might turn to communism.

02:02:36.627 --> 02:02:42.867

Phil: And you can quite imagine it if you had been a factory worker or a farmer, and, you know, farmers were also unionized back then.

02:02:43.807 --> 02:02:59.387

Phil: If you're a factory worker or a farmer and you've just gone through the Great Depression, which was brought about by market forces, something that has absolutely nothing to do with the physical world and how well you made a product or how hard you worked, right?

02:02:59.787 --> 02:03:01.347

Phil: Or you knew that you lost a job.

02:03:01.927 --> 02:03:05.087

Phil: And then if Joe Starlin comes along and says, yeah, capitalism, huh?

02:03:05.127 --> 02:03:07.267

Phil: Well, we gave that a good try, but it really sucks.

02:03:07.607 --> 02:03:08.827

Phil: Here's something you might like.

02:03:08.847 --> 02:03:09.787

Phil: It's called communism.

02:03:10.707 --> 02:03:12.647

Phil: And it all watered down socialism.

02:03:13.307 --> 02:03:15.607

Phil: So in the 30s, there was a real...

02:03:16.467 --> 02:03:22.747

Phil: It was basically a time where all bets were off in terms of what ideology was going to win.

02:03:23.167 --> 02:03:32.027

Phil: And that's where you have this Randian complex come up which you can totally see how in the 1930s, it could have gone either way.

02:03:32.647 --> 02:03:34.407

Phil: They could have stayed the course of capitalism.

02:03:34.427 --> 02:03:39.067

Phil: They could have flipped and gone to the communism cooperative effort.

02:03:39.867 --> 02:03:43.627

Phil: Or they could have gone in this Randian way, which is basically the strongest survive.

02:03:45.767 --> 02:03:54.347

Phil: Let's just minimize government, communism and capitalism and go for a streamlined government that basically is only in armed forces.

02:03:54.847 --> 02:04:01.327

Phil: So I think that basically sets the framework for the storytelling that Ken Levine does in Bioshock.

02:04:01.967 --> 02:04:10.487

Tom: As far as the actual plot not in terms of the politics, another excellent thing that it gets of the period is of course the...

02:04:11.347 --> 02:04:22.527

Tom: I probably said this already, but we need to go into it for another point on the story, is the confidence man or con artist, which of course is a huge cliche from around that time period.

02:04:22.787 --> 02:04:43.627

Tom: And you might think these are all obvious sorts of things, and they are, but the thing is when you look at pastiche in most games, they completely miss the stuff that was actually around in the time period that makes for a reasonable pastiche as far as other mediums will be concerned whatsoever.

02:04:43.647 --> 02:05:04.507

Tom: And it becomes much more either a parody of the era or a pastiche that gets it completely and utterly wrong, such as American Nightmares attempt to pastiche old American science fiction shows where they completely miss the essence of the aesthetics that they're attempting to copy.

02:05:04.527 --> 02:05:11.227

Tom: Whereas here, it's obviously extremely simple and minor stuff that they're getting right, but they are actually getting it right.

02:05:11.247 --> 02:05:23.107

Tom: And whether it's necessarily correct for the world they're attempting to create, given that it is a capsule, they're still following the correct way to achieve a pastiche.

02:05:23.727 --> 02:05:29.527

Tom: And it also comes out in the way that the story is told, rather how the plot unfolds.

02:05:29.547 --> 02:05:31.847

Tom: And this came out in 2007.

02:05:31.867 --> 02:05:33.167

Tom: I think we can do spoilers, right?

02:05:34.327 --> 02:05:35.727

Phil: If spoilers from this point on.

02:05:35.747 --> 02:05:37.507

Tom: Yeah, so you can just stick a warning in there.

02:05:37.907 --> 02:05:45.267

Tom: So the twist, if you can call it that, where you then find out that you are a...

02:05:46.467 --> 02:05:47.147

Tom: What's the term?

02:05:48.747 --> 02:05:52.407

Tom: There's a specific term for the type of hit notice, but I can't remember what it is right now.

02:05:52.827 --> 02:05:55.007

Tom: And I assume you can't either from your silence.

02:05:55.027 --> 02:06:09.447

Tom: But basically, Frank Fontaine, who is the con artist slash entrepreneur slash villain of the game, has sent you off to kill Andrew Ryan, aka Anne Rand, right?

02:06:10.167 --> 02:06:10.487

Phil: Right.

02:06:10.627 --> 02:06:26.487

Tom: So the reason this actually worked as far as the plot unfolding is, and something that you would find in a lot of pulp fiction of the time era, is it had so many jarring moments in the story that stood out as being utterly stupid.

02:06:26.707 --> 02:06:37.347

Tom: Like when you land, when you crash land and then you run in, it makes no sense whatsoever that the character would simply run down into Rapture immediately without thinking about it, right?

02:06:37.567 --> 02:06:38.047

Phil: That's right.

02:06:38.467 --> 02:06:39.727

Phil: I mean, the whole thing...

02:06:39.907 --> 02:06:41.807

Phil: I think what you're talking about is like suggestive...

02:06:42.767 --> 02:06:45.427

Phil: hypersuggestibility, right?

02:06:45.787 --> 02:06:55.267

Phil: And right from the get-go, the character is being basically manipulated through hypnosis.

02:06:56.567 --> 02:07:06.747

Tom: But anyway, so there's random moments where they do these things that are just mind-blowingly bad and stupid.

02:07:07.747 --> 02:07:19.007

Tom: As you would find in a pulp fiction story of the era, all is a lead-up for the reveal where, okay, this made no sense because it actually did make sense all along.

02:07:20.027 --> 02:07:28.627

Tom: And like it or hate it, it's once again really well done pastiche that is accurate, which is not to say that the storytelling is good.

02:07:28.647 --> 02:07:40.067

Tom: And I think the major failing in the story is the extreme grandiosity of what is depicted in the dialogue.

02:07:40.207 --> 02:08:05.587

Tom: I think the best example is when you come up to the surgeon, the first boss in the game, leading into it, there's been these hilarious long passionate speeches about creating asymmetrical faces, why two eyes, why not three, and all these hilarious, really schlocky but amusing random horror diatribes about performing ridiculous plastic surgery.

02:08:07.027 --> 02:08:09.947

Tom: Then you get to the guy and what is the scene?

02:08:10.067 --> 02:08:20.327

Tom: There's two women strung up on a bed that don't have like five eyes and two noses, they're just these dead people on a bed.

02:08:20.607 --> 02:08:33.067

Tom: So they've had this amazing, hilarious, that could have been really, really hilarious horror, if you can call it that, moment in the game.

02:08:33.367 --> 02:08:37.207

Tom: And then what you presented with is such a massive, stupid letdown.

02:08:37.627 --> 02:08:41.187

Phil: Yeah, I mean, the guy should have said, why two boobs?

02:08:41.187 --> 02:08:42.587

Phil: Why one vagina?

02:08:42.947 --> 02:08:44.627

Phil: Why not nine vaginas?

02:08:44.647 --> 02:08:47.267

Tom: And then you come up to this nine-vaginid woman.

02:08:47.847 --> 02:08:49.867

Phil: Why not a face full of vaginas?

02:08:49.907 --> 02:08:50.267

Tom: Yep.

02:08:51.487 --> 02:08:53.127

Phil: Why not eyes for vaginas?

02:08:54.867 --> 02:08:56.247

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

02:08:56.267 --> 02:08:57.747

Phil: And it's just a bunch of dead people.

02:08:57.767 --> 02:08:58.267

Tom: That's right.

02:08:58.507 --> 02:09:03.127

Tom: And I think that's a major problem with how the story is told.

02:09:03.607 --> 02:09:17.807

Tom: The dialogue and the voice acting is basically completely unrelated to what is then depicted in the narrative in the game itself throughout the entire thing.

02:09:17.887 --> 02:09:20.767

Tom: And so, for example, it's in every single point.

02:09:20.787 --> 02:09:23.567

Tom: It's the same with the artist as well.

02:09:23.587 --> 02:09:32.387

Tom: The artist has these, once again, ridiculously grandiose speeches about art and censorship and all this bullshit.

02:09:33.207 --> 02:09:40.807

Tom: Then all your interaction with him is, at one stage, he's got some bombs on a piano and you have to photograph some dead guys for him.

02:09:40.867 --> 02:09:45.547

Tom: It's just completely disparate to what is being described in the dialogue.

02:09:45.707 --> 02:09:52.387

Tom: So the characters that are presented in the dialogue are not the same as the characters that are presented in the game itself.

02:09:52.507 --> 02:09:55.367

Phil: Yeah, the game is completely unbalanced on every level.

02:09:55.687 --> 02:09:57.967

Phil: I would have to say that that's an extension of it.

02:09:58.387 --> 02:10:16.627

Tom: Now, the one other thing I wanted to say about the aesthetic, and this is actually a ridiculously hilarious anachronism, but it is anachronism, but it is found in absolutely every single modern thing produced which is completely bizarre.

02:10:16.947 --> 02:10:23.327

Tom: So, everyone in Rapture is these upper class Toffs from the 1930s, right?

02:10:24.687 --> 02:10:26.727

Phil: Yep, they're certainly privileged.

02:10:27.007 --> 02:10:28.667

Tom: What's the prevailing music in the game?

02:10:30.907 --> 02:10:34.227

Phil: Basically a lot of ragtime.

02:10:35.187 --> 02:10:40.547

Tom: Why the fuck would rich people from the 1930s be listening to ragtime?

02:10:42.707 --> 02:10:53.827

Tom: And at the very least, there should have been, just to make this possibly somewhat plausible, some posters of blackface bands playing this ragtime.

02:10:54.567 --> 02:10:57.067

Tom: That could have made any sense whatsoever.

02:10:57.587 --> 02:11:00.107

Phil: You mean like M&M or Vanilla Ice?

02:11:01.187 --> 02:11:01.827

Phil: No.

02:11:01.847 --> 02:11:10.627

Phil: I know that it's historically accurate to the era, the 1930s, to have this kind of music, but in this perfect world, yeah, they wouldn't have been listening to that.

02:11:10.647 --> 02:11:13.327

Phil: They would have been listening to white people music or classical music.

02:11:13.347 --> 02:11:15.087

Tom: It would have been classical, 100%.

02:11:15.387 --> 02:11:16.727

Tom: Yeah, you're right.

02:11:17.407 --> 02:11:17.907

Phil: You're right.

02:11:20.107 --> 02:11:27.387

Tom: So, that's probably enough about the aesthetic, and I think it's interesting that we basically do not actually disagree on anything, right?

02:11:27.407 --> 02:11:30.147

Tom: We just, you hate it and I like it, right?

02:11:30.747 --> 02:11:32.107

Tom: That's our point of contention.

02:11:32.647 --> 02:11:34.547

Phil: But we agree on the reality of it.

02:11:34.567 --> 02:11:35.407

Tom: That's right, yeah.

02:11:35.487 --> 02:11:38.727

Phil: We agree on the reality of it, and somehow you mistakenly like it.

02:11:38.747 --> 02:11:39.727

Tom: Yeah, or, yeah.

02:11:40.647 --> 02:11:55.187

Tom: But moving on to the gameplay, which is where the game has its major problems, let's begin with these so-called force powers, and that's what they are, and that is easily the greatest hook of the game.

02:11:55.207 --> 02:12:06.327

Tom: The fact that finally a game is doing Star Wars force powers right, even if it's not Star Wars, because Star Wars games themselves, as you said, generally fail to do them in any way.

02:12:06.347 --> 02:12:11.687

Tom: Interestingly, unless they're an RPG, in which case you're not really using them yourself anyway.

02:12:11.707 --> 02:12:12.907

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

02:12:12.927 --> 02:12:14.507

Phil: You're summoning a demon to do it.

02:12:14.587 --> 02:12:15.087

Tom: Exactly.

02:12:15.607 --> 02:12:16.267

Phil: Or a dragon.

02:12:16.287 --> 02:12:16.467

Tom: Yep.

02:12:17.307 --> 02:12:20.207

Phil: So do you think they do them right in this game?

02:12:20.727 --> 02:12:22.687

Tom: The answer to that is yes and no.

02:12:22.707 --> 02:12:36.047

Tom: There's one major problem with them, and that is at least when they're not fully upgraded, and even then, if you're using lightning versus ice, the reality of it is in terms of gameplay, there's not actually a great difference.

02:12:36.067 --> 02:12:46.067

Tom: All it does is, unless there's water involved, all it does is freeze the person in place, and then you can either shoot them or hit them with a wrench, and the ending is different.

02:12:46.267 --> 02:12:48.587

Tom: If they've been hit with ice, then they explode.

02:12:48.967 --> 02:12:55.127

Tom: If they've been hit with lightning, then they just fall onto the ground, flailing from the electricity.

02:12:55.747 --> 02:13:06.627

Tom: So, many of them, there's like three basic styles of powers, and then there's multiple ones that look different, but they're basically the same thing as well.

02:13:07.127 --> 02:13:19.847

Tom: And even the ones that are a different style, like say the bees aren't really the same as using the ice or the lightning, the effect of the gameplay is still once again the same because of how limited the AI in the fights are.

02:13:21.327 --> 02:13:33.447

Tom: So if you're using bees on people, they can still move around, they run around flailing instead of standing still, but the AI doesn't attempt to adapt to what you're doing in any way.

02:13:33.967 --> 02:13:38.267

Tom: So the reason they did this is probably to make it really sandboxy, right?

02:13:38.287 --> 02:13:44.527

Tom: So that you can basically wail on these people with a large amount of powers and just go completely crazy.

02:13:45.167 --> 02:13:56.067

Tom: The problem with that is you can't get a great flow to your use of weapons and the powers because you've got to manually switch between your weapons and your powers.

02:13:56.087 --> 02:14:02.267

Tom: It's not like you can click left click to use a power and right click to use a gun or vice versa.

02:14:02.287 --> 02:14:10.847

Tom: You've got to be manually changing between them which results in the combat being slower than it should for you to be able to build up an interesting number of combos.

02:14:10.927 --> 02:14:17.627

Tom: And even on hard, except for the big daddies, the enemies don't have enough health for you to do this either.

02:14:17.647 --> 02:14:26.567

Tom: So you can maybe use two or three combinations of weapon and power at the absolute most before they're dead.

02:14:27.127 --> 02:14:31.067

Tom: So it appears that they've...

02:14:31.407 --> 02:14:32.807

Tom: And it's also in the areas as well.

02:14:32.827 --> 02:14:52.107

Tom: They've designed the areas generally so that they're quite open and so that you and the enemies can move around completely unhindered by having to run behind cover or navigate through some annoying pathway so that you can easily put together these start, these different combinations of powers and the like.

02:14:52.627 --> 02:15:03.747

Tom: But once again, because of the similarity between many of them and because of the lack of health on the enemies, you never really get to do...

02:15:06.367 --> 02:15:10.887

Tom: You experience enough variety for this to stay interesting over the full length of the game.

02:15:10.927 --> 02:15:17.527

Tom: After a while, it becomes incredibly repetitive because they don't even give you any new enemy types.

02:15:17.547 --> 02:15:18.367

Tom: They give you the same...

02:15:18.867 --> 02:15:25.327

Tom: After about maybe a third of the way into the game, you've seen every single enemy, and all they do is make them tougher in certain areas.

02:15:26.107 --> 02:15:30.847

Phil: I was going to save this for a Bioshock Infinite review, but I'll say it here now.

02:15:32.627 --> 02:15:34.947

Phil: The Force powers are...

02:15:35.747 --> 02:15:45.787

Phil: It's amazing that you said that, what you said, because I had written in my notes that the Force powers are basically just a color palette swap.

02:15:45.807 --> 02:15:46.827

Phil: If they're fire, they're red.

02:15:46.847 --> 02:15:48.027

Phil: If they're electricity, they're blue.

02:15:48.047 --> 02:15:49.267

Phil: If they're ice, they're blue.

02:15:49.367 --> 02:15:52.007

Phil: But essentially, they're just doing the same thing.

02:15:52.027 --> 02:15:55.507

Phil: And guess why the Force powers work in Bioshock?

02:15:56.107 --> 02:15:57.527

Phil: Because they're the grenade.

02:15:57.987 --> 02:16:04.687

Phil: There are no grenades in this game, and the reason why they work is basically because they plant the Force powers on the grenade button.

02:16:05.307 --> 02:16:07.647

Phil: And we all know how to use grenades, so guess what?

02:16:07.687 --> 02:16:08.187

Phil: It works.

02:16:08.187 --> 02:16:18.447

Phil: And they're basically as limited as grenades would be in terms of the gameplay pacing, as the Forces are as limited as grenades would usually be.

02:16:18.467 --> 02:16:21.067

Phil: You don't ever have an unlimited use of grenades, and guess what?

02:16:21.267 --> 02:16:22.987

Phil: You don't have an unlimited use of the Force powers.

02:16:23.007 --> 02:16:29.227

Tom: I would say you do generally have much more use of the Force powers than grenades, but it is a limited...

02:16:30.447 --> 02:16:33.507

Phil: It is limited, and it varies from game to game.

02:16:35.367 --> 02:16:41.887

Phil: But certainly, when it comes down to it, these Forces are nothing more than grenades.

02:16:42.007 --> 02:16:43.347

Tom: Yeah.

02:16:44.087 --> 02:17:00.327

Tom: And the color swapping also actually applies to the weapons, which is more of a problem than with the Force powers, because grenades, you don't need as much variety in them, but at least after you've upgraded them, there's basically no difference between using the pistol and the machine gun, for example.

02:17:00.347 --> 02:17:01.987

Tom: No, or the shotgun with the machine.

02:17:02.727 --> 02:17:06.287

Phil: After a time, you can shoot and kill someone with a shotgun at 30 feet.

02:17:07.247 --> 02:17:08.227

Tom: It's absurd.

02:17:08.247 --> 02:17:09.747

Tom: And it once again makes...

02:17:09.767 --> 02:17:14.167

Tom: It means there's absolutely no depth in the combat whatsoever.

02:17:14.187 --> 02:17:24.947

Tom: So the only appeal is the visual enjoyment of using the Force powers, because it is cool freezing someone, then hitting them with the wrench until they explode, right?

02:17:25.607 --> 02:17:25.967

Phil: Yeah.

02:17:26.047 --> 02:17:26.567

Phil: That's cool.

02:17:26.587 --> 02:17:26.767

Tom: Yeah.

02:17:27.127 --> 02:17:31.747

Tom: And that's the only appeal of the combat, which wears thin very, very quickly.

02:17:31.987 --> 02:17:49.347

Tom: And the other major problem is, I think the big daddies completely fucked them over, because if they didn't have big daddies in this game, they would have surely come up with at least better bosses than the really terrible bosses that they have and more variety in enemies.

02:17:49.347 --> 02:17:50.967

Tom: And there's only one...

02:17:51.487 --> 02:17:57.387

Phil: Well, they don't have big daddies in Infinite, and they don't replace them with bosses.

02:17:57.587 --> 02:18:04.307

Tom: Well, no, they do have, but in Infinite, they've got two or three tough enemies that come around.

02:18:04.327 --> 02:18:05.687

Phil: Like the George Washington robot.

02:18:05.707 --> 02:18:07.047

Tom: Which is more than in Bioshock.

02:18:08.447 --> 02:18:15.867

Tom: But with the big daddies, there's only one fight in the game against the big daddy that is at all interesting.

02:18:16.027 --> 02:18:18.047

Tom: And that is the first fight against the big daddy.

02:18:18.427 --> 02:18:20.887

Tom: And the reason for that is, look at the design of that level.

02:18:21.847 --> 02:18:29.967

Tom: It's basically kind of like a racing course with the track going around a middle area where you can't move.

02:18:30.487 --> 02:18:35.707

Tom: And what's the major strength of the big daddy that sets them apart from the other enemies in the game?

02:18:36.087 --> 02:18:37.487

Tom: That is their charging ability.

02:18:37.647 --> 02:18:40.227

Tom: Why does that then make that fight so much more intense?

02:18:40.247 --> 02:18:47.027

Tom: It's because the area is so narrow that you've got to be really on your guard to avoid it, and you've got to be paying attention to what they're doing.

02:18:47.447 --> 02:19:02.687

Tom: Whereas in every other big daddy fight, because they've not designed the other areas for the big daddy, because they just wander around the game all over the place, the charge becomes no harder to avoid than the shooting.

02:19:02.707 --> 02:19:11.647

Tom: So you're basically just strafing sideways around these enemies with a large amount of health that are otherwise basically no different to the other enemies you're fighting.

02:19:12.967 --> 02:19:25.047

Tom: So once again, they don't manage to fill the void that they should be of giving the players something more intense and a bigger challenge to come up against.

02:19:25.067 --> 02:19:34.047

Tom: And I think they're probably even less interesting to fight than the other enemies in terms of using force powers because they have so much health.

02:19:34.067 --> 02:19:34.927

Tom: They get boring.

02:19:35.307 --> 02:19:41.907

Tom: Even if you can finally use a reasonable amount of combos against them, they take like a minute or two to kill.

02:19:42.567 --> 02:19:45.507

Tom: After a minute, who the fuck cares, right?

02:19:46.127 --> 02:19:48.367

Phil: Yeah, I agree, absolutely.

02:19:48.467 --> 02:19:51.487

Phil: And also, what did you do with the little sisters?

02:19:51.507 --> 02:19:53.547

Phil: Did you harvest them?

02:19:53.547 --> 02:19:55.667

Phil: What's the option besides harvesting them?

02:19:55.967 --> 02:19:58.387

Tom: Well, you don't have to actually interfere with them at all.

02:19:58.647 --> 02:20:00.987

Tom: You can just let the big daddies wander around with them.

02:20:01.527 --> 02:20:05.087

Tom: That's the only other option, and then you can just either harvest them or not.

02:20:05.107 --> 02:20:06.307

Tom: I chose not to harvest them.

02:20:07.067 --> 02:20:07.407

Phil: Why?

02:20:08.407 --> 02:20:12.627

Tom: It's the canon thing to do, I would say, 100%.

02:20:12.687 --> 02:20:16.047

Tom: Because the protagonist in the game is not actually you.

02:20:16.067 --> 02:20:18.427

Tom: The protagonist in the game is Tanenbaum.

02:20:18.447 --> 02:20:27.207

Tom: The plot is entirely about her redemption, not your own characters getting a family or whatever utterly stupid ending it comes up with.

02:20:27.547 --> 02:20:44.767

Tom: The whole plot is designed around Tanenbaum's redemption and obviously her convincing the hypnotized guy to save the little sisters is far more canon than him following Fontaine's instructions to harvest them.

02:20:46.387 --> 02:20:57.247

Phil: No, okay, that's good, that's good, because I've done similarly ethical or moral things in other games on the basis of the character, like John Marston in Red Dead Redemption.

02:20:57.267 --> 02:21:00.767

Phil: There were things that I did not do in that game because it did not befit the character.

02:21:01.647 --> 02:21:04.467

Phil: I did not care about Bioshock or the character.

02:21:04.587 --> 02:21:12.847

Phil: They gave me no reason to care about the character, so I harvested every little sister so I could get, you know, plasma juice.

02:21:13.607 --> 02:21:19.787

Phil: And as a result, I got the quote bad ending, but I don't think there's a good ending in this game.

02:21:19.807 --> 02:21:21.507

Tom: Definitely not.

02:21:21.587 --> 02:21:23.527

Phil: Certainly not as it relates to the final battle.

02:21:23.567 --> 02:21:23.907

Tom: Yeah.

02:21:24.507 --> 02:21:34.767

Tom: And the one last thing is, the other problem with the design of the game is not just the combat that becomes extremely repetitive and shallow.

02:21:35.287 --> 02:21:46.507

Tom: It's also, the game is basically, the main focus in what it's getting you to do is 90% of the time fetch quests.

02:21:46.907 --> 02:21:55.327

Tom: At the end, I know the end of the game got a huge amount of criticism because it's a long fetch quest followed by an escort mission, but the entire game is that.

02:21:55.447 --> 02:22:06.887

Tom: The ending, the only reason that was more annoying than the rest of the game, and I found it less annoying because at least fetching stuff, actually older stuff, you were putting on a big daddy suit, so there was some sort of visual change.

02:22:08.507 --> 02:22:12.407

Tom: But the rest of the game is completely constant fetch quest.

02:22:12.427 --> 02:22:15.087

Tom: Go here for this iron and bring it back to me.

02:22:15.107 --> 02:22:16.027

Tom: Go here and do that.

02:22:16.367 --> 02:22:24.307

Tom: It's incredibly simple and banal in the way it directs the player around.

02:22:25.047 --> 02:22:41.587

Tom: Once again, perhaps the reason for that was to put a focus on the sandboxy type of combat, but that's not really how the combat ended up being, so it just feels incredibly chore-like, having to wander back and forth with items and all that sort of bullshit.

02:22:43.087 --> 02:22:45.727

Phil: I've heard the same criticisms and not related with them.

02:22:46.547 --> 02:22:52.427

Phil: My only problem with the ending was just the horrible boss battle at the end, followed by the horrible cutscene at the end.

02:22:52.867 --> 02:22:54.647

Tom: What was your problem with the boss battle?

02:22:55.887 --> 02:22:57.987

Phil: It just was really video gamey.

02:22:58.767 --> 02:22:59.847

Tom: The whole game was?

02:23:00.407 --> 02:23:01.747

Phil: Yeah, but this was like...

02:23:02.987 --> 02:23:08.547

Phil: When you get to the end of this game, it has all these pretensions of being something greater than your typical video game.

02:23:08.887 --> 02:23:11.967

Phil: You expect something better than a typical video game ending.

02:23:12.787 --> 02:23:17.647

Phil: I didn't expect a Mario 64 ending to this game.

02:23:18.447 --> 02:23:19.487

Phil: It wasn't pleasurable.

02:23:19.587 --> 02:23:20.647

Phil: It was just tedious.

02:23:21.287 --> 02:23:25.527

Phil: Then they basically just have this cutscene voiceover that explains the whole thing.

02:23:26.187 --> 02:23:27.167

Phil: That's all, folks.

02:23:27.267 --> 02:23:27.687

Tom: I don't know.

02:23:27.707 --> 02:23:31.527

Tom: I didn't mind, but I didn't really go into it with any of those expectations.

02:23:31.847 --> 02:23:36.367

Phil: Well, yeah, I mean, it was really the worst letdown of the game.

02:23:36.387 --> 02:23:39.767

Phil: It's probably the second worst ending of a video game of this generation.

02:23:40.487 --> 02:23:41.527

Tom: I wouldn't say that at all.

02:23:41.607 --> 02:23:47.567

Tom: The other reason is, as far as the story is concerned, once again, the plot ends long before that.

02:23:47.587 --> 02:23:53.927

Tom: The plot basically ends when you get up to Fontaine.

02:23:54.207 --> 02:23:59.927

Tom: It basically ends when you meet Tenenbaum face to face.

02:24:01.567 --> 02:24:03.307

Tom: Everything in the story is being covered.

02:24:03.327 --> 02:24:13.007

Tom: The moral choices that the player could make has been solved there and therefore either Tenenbaum has been redeemed or not at that point in the game.

02:24:13.107 --> 02:24:16.927

Tom: That's the end of the entire arc of the plot.

02:24:17.607 --> 02:24:21.447

Tom: From that point onwards, I wasn't really expecting anything in the plot whatsoever.

02:24:21.467 --> 02:24:27.967

Tom: I didn't think that as far as the gameplay was concerned, the boss battle, that it was particularly bad.

02:24:27.987 --> 02:24:43.827

Tom: I thought it was probably the most interesting part of the game in terms of gameplay because it tied back to the first big daddy fight where there was some sort of tension and spontaneity to what the enemy was doing.

02:24:45.387 --> 02:24:47.027

Phil: Okay, I just remembered another ending.

02:24:47.047 --> 02:24:49.787

Phil: It's the third worst ending of a video game this generation.

02:24:50.147 --> 02:24:52.387

Phil: The worst was Crackdown, the second worst was...

02:24:52.527 --> 02:24:57.687

Phil: No, the worst was The Condute on the Wii, the second worst was Crackdown on the Xbox, the third was this game.

02:24:57.747 --> 02:25:05.327

Phil: Because as I remember the boss battle in this game, you're basically just running around, hiding behind a bunch of servers or closets.

02:25:07.187 --> 02:25:08.487

Phil: I mean, what is the end?

02:25:08.507 --> 02:25:10.587

Phil: What is the end boss battle in this game?

02:25:10.607 --> 02:25:12.627

Tom: I don't think there's anywhere to hide in it, actually.

02:25:13.167 --> 02:25:20.447

Phil: There were just long corridors, and it basically involved you recharging and then attacking him and then hiding and recharging and attacking him.

02:25:21.067 --> 02:25:22.507

Tom: I don't remember anywhere you could hide.

02:25:22.527 --> 02:25:24.707

Tom: It was in an open sort of area.

02:25:24.707 --> 02:25:28.967

Tom: Maybe there was a thing in the middle of the area that you ran behind, perhaps?

02:25:29.907 --> 02:25:34.147

Tom: But basically, you had to shoot him a certain amount, then he'd go back to recharge and you stabbed him.

02:25:35.507 --> 02:25:46.287

Tom: It wasn't amazing, but I do believe, I do feel that it was probably the second best fight in the game, as it was more of a challenge in the rest of the game, and he did something different.

02:25:46.307 --> 02:25:54.527

Tom: It didn't really do much different to The Big Daddy's, but it was like the ultimate version of The Big Daddy's in his behavior.

02:25:54.967 --> 02:26:08.067

Tom: But one really bizarre thing about it was the entire game, and I don't know if you played it with Vita Chambers on or off, I played it with on just to see what the hell they were like, the entire game up to that point had been with Vita Chambers, right?

02:26:08.087 --> 02:26:10.847

Tom: And when the game was released, you had to play with Vita Chambers.

02:26:11.087 --> 02:26:15.227

Tom: Suddenly when the boss battle begins, it announces, oh, by the way, there are no Vita Chambers.

02:26:15.247 --> 02:26:17.667

Tom: When you die, it's game over and you start the boss battle again.

02:26:19.867 --> 02:26:21.987

Tom: Is that not just completely fucking bizarre?

02:26:25.927 --> 02:26:30.647

Phil: Yeah, that's a bit of a let down.

02:26:30.827 --> 02:26:34.747

Phil: I played with the Vita Chambers because I was just trying to get through the game.

02:26:35.447 --> 02:26:37.787

Tom: I don't think you're likely to die even on hard.

02:26:37.807 --> 02:26:48.667

Tom: I was never really close to dying, but that just seems like a completely bizarre design to have this mechanic based around failure in the entire game up to that point.

02:26:48.667 --> 02:26:54.647

Tom: Then suddenly, just announce it on a loading screen, by the way, you can't save here.

02:26:54.667 --> 02:26:55.807

Tom: We're autosaving now.

02:26:55.987 --> 02:26:59.247

Tom: You can't save here, and there are no Vita Chambers anymore.

02:27:00.007 --> 02:27:01.767

Tom: It's just completely and utterly bizarre.

02:27:03.787 --> 02:27:05.287

Tom: That's the one thing we didn't discuss.

02:27:05.307 --> 02:27:06.687

Tom: What did you think of the Vita Chambers?

02:27:08.407 --> 02:27:11.387

Phil: I didn't die that much, so I didn't really care.

02:27:14.827 --> 02:27:16.167

Phil: They sent me back to the same level.

02:27:16.407 --> 02:27:21.167

Phil: It's basically they've inflicted them on Bioshock Infinite by default.

02:27:22.327 --> 02:27:23.387

Phil: Whatever, I don't care.

02:27:23.827 --> 02:27:41.787

Tom: I think with the way that the combat plays out, I didn't mind them because if I died in a battle, which was very, very rare, because it got so uninteresting after a certain point, I was perfectly happy to just go back in and cheaply kill everyone.

02:27:45.027 --> 02:27:46.947

Phil: And the checkpointing was generous enough.

02:27:47.547 --> 02:27:57.807

Tom: The final two things that are very quick that I want to comment on is, another fascinating thing about it, is the native aspect ratio of the game is 4 to 3, not 16 to 9.

02:27:58.347 --> 02:28:50.827

Tom: So if you're playing in widescreen, you actually have areas of the screen cut off as opposed to the other way around, as most games have, and I assume no one is going to agree with me whatsoever, but I actually, and this isn't just because I use a 4 to 3 monitor, I apply this to console games as well, which I play in 16 to 9, I think more games should actually use 4 to 3 aspect ratio on and off, because it actually completely alters how a perspective behaves and what sort of visual feeling the game is given, not just in terms of shot framing and all that sort of thing, but in first person perspective game, if you put a game to 4 to 3, it completely alters your perception of depth, peripheral vision and a whole range of things.

02:28:50.847 --> 02:29:05.407

Tom: And it can be used to create a unique feeling, which is unique now because all games use 16 to 9, but it can be used to create a different sort of look, which can actually suit certain games.

02:29:05.567 --> 02:29:13.087

Tom: For example, in Bioshock, it actually is beneficial for the game to be in 4 to 3 because of the melee combat.

02:29:14.127 --> 02:29:36.047

Tom: To me, anyway, melee is generally depth, more easily represented in first person in 4 to 3, because you can then be more focused on what is directly in front of you, whereas if you've got 16 to 9, it not only raises your peripheral vision, it also increases the field of view, which means you've got more focus on further depth and less focus close up to you.

02:29:36.607 --> 02:29:42.107

Phil: Yeah, it's much better for melee because in melee circumstances, your range of vision and peripheral vision is extremely limited.

02:29:43.247 --> 02:29:46.567

Phil: Okay, and you had some other points as well before we close out.

02:29:46.587 --> 02:29:48.507

Tom: Yeah, just a few minor things.

02:29:49.347 --> 02:29:51.847

Tom: And they both tie back to Spec Ops The Line.

02:29:52.547 --> 02:29:54.007

Tom: Funnily enough, the first is...

02:29:54.707 --> 02:30:18.287

Tom: Once again, the fact that the music is not just a generic orchestral score added so much to the enjoyment of the combat, at least early on when it hadn't become so repetitive, in the same way that the rock music makes the combat at certain times in Spec Ops The Line much more enjoyable than it actually is.

02:30:19.067 --> 02:30:24.627

Tom: Killing enemies to ragtime jazz is pretty awesome, I thought it was anyway.

02:30:25.207 --> 02:30:29.367

Phil: Yeah, I wouldn't know, because as usual I played it with the sound off.

02:30:30.347 --> 02:30:45.127

Tom: The second point that ties back to Spec Ops The Line is another thing that Bioshock does extremely well is its depiction of Art Deco and the other game that springs immediately to mind in recent memory that also depicted Art Deco is Spec Ops The Line.

02:30:45.147 --> 02:31:09.887

Tom: The reason, once again, and another point that you may be outraged by, the reason that it represents Art Deco better than most representations, also not in games, is the extremely cartoony and toy-like look of the game, whereas in Spec Ops The Line, they have a much more realistic look and they therefore attempt to represent Art Deco more accurately.

02:31:10.067 --> 02:31:11.207

Tom: What does this result in?

02:31:11.487 --> 02:31:29.467

Tom: Gaudy, and of course Art Deco itself is incredibly gaudy in its own way, but really inaccurate, just stupid, bad representations of Art Deco that don't really capture the feeling of Art Deco, but also aren't an accurate technical representation of it either.

02:31:30.187 --> 02:32:02.767

Tom: And because they're not an accurate technical representation, the fact that they don't capture the feel of Art Deco becomes much more ridiculously obvious and annoying, and it becomes this incredibly stupid bad knockoff that just demonstrates the low level of art design and lack of expertise, which is not to say that the people involved in this show aren't good art designers, but their area of expertise is not in attempting to represent that area of the art world.

02:32:03.227 --> 02:32:20.707

Tom: Whereas if you then represent Art Deco as it is in Bioshock in a much more stylized way so that it becomes a different sort of thing and part of the overall aesthetic of the game then become any flaws in the representation then do not matter so much.

02:32:21.467 --> 02:32:31.867

Phil: I've got to disagree on Spec Ops stuff, but basically in Spec Ops they were going for broad stylistic strokes and if you want to say the same thing about Bioshock then I'd be happy with that.

02:32:32.047 --> 02:32:34.687

Tom: I don't think they were going for broad stylistic.

02:32:34.707 --> 02:32:46.127

Tom: What I would say to let Spec Ops line off on that part is the general style that they were using there was deliberately that way.

02:32:46.147 --> 02:32:54.247

Tom: I don't think that they were all using broad strokes in the same way as Bioshock but they were deliberately making it a poor representation.

02:32:54.267 --> 02:32:55.427

Tom: So I'll give you that.

02:32:55.467 --> 02:32:56.007

Phil: Here's the deal.

02:32:56.027 --> 02:32:57.727

Phil: There's so much in Bioshock.

02:32:57.827 --> 02:32:58.867

Phil: I absolutely agree with you.

02:32:58.887 --> 02:33:04.787

Phil: I think the people in interviews back this up, the interviews for the Spec Ops guys, they knew exactly what they were doing on every level.

02:33:06.927 --> 02:33:13.867

Phil: In Bioshock, there are so many things that are subpar from a technical perspective, from an artistic understanding perspective.

02:33:15.007 --> 02:33:16.647

Phil: Could it all be earnest?

02:33:16.667 --> 02:33:18.207

Phil: Could it all be on purpose?

02:33:18.347 --> 02:33:24.267

Phil: Because so many people like this game, and I've always said that the only reason people like this game is because they're ignorant.

02:33:24.947 --> 02:33:30.367

Phil: This is probably the first time they're exposed to Ragtime, probably the first time they're exposed to Art Deco.

02:33:30.627 --> 02:33:39.647

Phil: So they see something and they're like, oh, this game was amazing, the world that it created, not knowing that, well, yeah, this actually existed in the real world about 100 years ago.

02:33:40.087 --> 02:33:42.327

Phil: You just weren't exposed to it until now.

02:33:43.707 --> 02:33:51.907

Phil: When you see this come along with popular music all the time, you see this come along with movies all the time, movies being remade, right?

02:33:52.707 --> 02:34:03.827

Phil: So if someone sees a movie that's been remade and has no knowledge of the original source material, they must think that, wow, this guy is a great director or that was a great script, right?

02:34:04.167 --> 02:34:06.367

Phil: Well, hey, it was based on something done before.

02:34:06.387 --> 02:34:09.387

Phil: Yeah, but they wouldn't have been as cool back then, right?

02:34:10.327 --> 02:34:16.447

Phil: So how much of this do you honestly attribute to them, like the robotic NPCs?

02:34:16.907 --> 02:34:18.347

Phil: That has to be on purpose.

02:34:18.987 --> 02:34:31.627

Tom: Well, the thing is, even though there is technically a lot of stuff that is subpar, I think the stuff that is subpar technically is more on the gameplay side of things rather than aesthetically.

02:34:31.627 --> 02:34:47.007

Tom: And the things that are technically subpar aesthetically, such as when you're looking out of Rapture and you see these just incredibly terrible depiction of the buildings from the outside that look like they're from a bad-looking PS2 game, right?

02:34:47.687 --> 02:34:48.227

Phil: Yes.

02:34:48.247 --> 02:34:59.307

Tom: Which, by the way, bizarrely, as far as I can remember, one of the most iconic scenes that everyone says was amazing in Bioshock is when you go in the bathysphere and you see Rapture underwater.

02:34:59.947 --> 02:35:00.287

Phil: Yeah.

02:35:00.307 --> 02:35:01.087

Tom: That looks like shit.

02:35:01.107 --> 02:35:02.607

Tom: And it looked like shit at the time.

02:35:03.047 --> 02:35:04.167

Phil: What are they talking about?

02:35:04.187 --> 02:35:04.367

Phil: What?

02:35:05.507 --> 02:35:06.407

Tom: They're insane.

02:35:07.527 --> 02:35:09.187

Phil: They're insane or we're insane, but...

02:35:09.207 --> 02:35:11.107

Tom: But certainly someone here is insane.

02:35:11.667 --> 02:35:12.527

Phil: And it's not us.

02:35:12.567 --> 02:35:12.747

Tom: No.

02:35:14.447 --> 02:35:25.907

Tom: I really do believe in Infinite and 2 drive this home to me so much because 2 leaves behind so much of the stuff I'm talking about here and Ken Levine isn't involved.

02:35:26.147 --> 02:35:28.007

Tom: Infinite brings so much of it back.

02:35:28.027 --> 02:35:31.967

Tom: I cannot possibly believe that it is not...

02:35:32.987 --> 02:35:33.447

Phil: Awesome.

02:35:33.447 --> 02:35:34.167

Tom: Deliberate.

02:35:34.267 --> 02:35:40.607

Tom: Or even if it's not deliberate, it's something wrong with him that is at least consistently wrong with him.

02:35:41.067 --> 02:35:45.647

Phil: So that is amazing because a lot of people say the same thing about Bioshock 2, right?

02:35:46.627 --> 02:35:50.087

Phil: That it's technically more proficient, but it's creatively limited, right?

02:35:50.347 --> 02:36:00.967

Phil: Well, obviously Ken Levine has this creativity in spades, but obviously from a technical gameplay, if Bioshock 2 improved on it and righted the wrongs, it was done by an entirely different studio for Take 2.

02:36:01.707 --> 02:36:15.267

Phil: And if all of those things return in Infinite, which is everything I'm almost done with Infinite, it's basically exactly the same, the same problems in Bioshock come up in Infinite.

02:36:15.947 --> 02:36:16.987

Phil: That's incredible.

02:36:17.367 --> 02:36:19.427

Phil: That really makes me want to play the second game now.

02:36:20.247 --> 02:36:25.887

Tom: The second game, well, you can wait for the review, but yeah, that's basically the bottom line with it.

02:36:27.167 --> 02:36:28.787

Phil: I'll go out and get it this week.

02:36:29.127 --> 02:36:31.867

Phil: Do you think that should be the next game I play then after Infinite?

02:36:32.467 --> 02:36:33.267

Tom: I'd say why not?

02:36:34.847 --> 02:36:35.307

Tom: Why not?

02:36:36.447 --> 02:36:37.847

Tom: And then we can do the reverse.

02:36:38.167 --> 02:36:41.567

Tom: You can discuss Two when I eventually get up to Infinite.

02:36:41.747 --> 02:36:43.667

Tom: You can discuss Infinite while I discuss Two.

02:36:43.687 --> 02:36:48.367

Tom: I think that's a fascinating thing.

02:36:48.747 --> 02:36:53.527

Tom: Even if you despise everything about his style, which you do, right?

02:36:54.287 --> 02:36:55.547

Phil: No, I don't.

02:36:55.587 --> 02:37:06.267

Phil: If it is his style, if this crazy robotic tin toy thing is his style with limited gameplay, then I think it's beyond him.

02:37:06.287 --> 02:37:11.387

Phil: I know he plays games, so I think it might have to do with his team.

02:37:11.487 --> 02:37:12.347

Phil: I just don't get it.

02:37:12.767 --> 02:37:13.387

Phil: I don't get it.

02:37:13.407 --> 02:37:13.687

Tom: Yeah.

02:37:14.107 --> 02:37:25.807

Tom: But what I'm saying is even though it's not for you, I think it deserves, even if you think it is complete and utter crap, it deserves some degree of respect for its extreme consistency.

02:37:25.827 --> 02:37:33.827

Tom: If I came into this hating everything about it, I would still think this is aesthetically quite an incredible achievement in many ways.

02:37:33.967 --> 02:37:37.927

Tom: Even if I basically despised everything about the aesthetic.

02:37:39.807 --> 02:37:40.467

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

02:37:41.527 --> 02:37:46.247

Tom: And so with all of that in mind, what's your prediction for my score?

02:37:47.267 --> 02:37:50.267

Phil: Well, I gave it a 9, amazingly.

02:37:50.287 --> 02:37:54.687

Tom: We are going to have to use that for our average score, combining both.

02:37:56.267 --> 02:37:59.287

Phil: I think you would give it a 4.5.

02:38:00.647 --> 02:38:05.207

Phil: No, no, wait, wait, you said you respected the choices, so I'm going to say a 5.5.

02:38:05.207 --> 02:38:06.947

Tom: I didn't even say I respected the choices.

02:38:06.967 --> 02:38:12.967

Tom: I think if you'll listen, Claire, carefully, I actually generally greatly enjoyed the aesthetic.

02:38:13.667 --> 02:38:14.907

Phil: Yeah, so 5.5.

02:38:15.167 --> 02:38:27.787

Tom: And the champ 4GX champ, or whatever the fuck he's called, the guy from the Goof Thru Yourself podcast, his prediction was 6 out of 10, and you were both wrong.

02:38:27.807 --> 02:38:32.147

Tom: Well, I am giving it a 7 out of 10, mind-blowingly.

02:38:33.847 --> 02:38:37.147

Phil: That is mind-blowing, and I don't know how you justify it.

02:38:37.167 --> 02:38:41.107

Tom: Well, I think you heard exactly why I justified it throughout the entire thing.

02:38:41.707 --> 02:38:44.087

Phil: That's true, we did just talk about it for an hour and a half, so...

02:38:44.107 --> 02:38:46.367

Tom: I think you know exactly how I justified it.

02:38:47.147 --> 02:38:50.607

Phil: So with that, we're going to end episode 14 of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: Again, if you're listening this long into the podcast, we greatly appreciate it, and obviously you're telling friends, and continue to do so on Twitter and everything else because our listenership is going up, and we really, really appreciate it.

Phil: You can come to the site, we post on it periodically, you can read all of Tom's old reviews, gameunder.net.

Phil: Follow me on Twitter at GameUnderPhil, and yeah, thanks for listening to us on Stitcher and iTunes and all the rest of it.

Phil: We really appreciate it, we'll be back next week with some more game impressions.

Phil: So with that, I am Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: And we have no creative outro thing, so...

Tom: We're no Ken Levine.

Phil: Go team.

Phil: Go team Game Under.