Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?
0:00:09 Intro
0:00:42 Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs
0:27:07 The Mindful Minifig/ Fogg
0:28:45 Spoilers Here
0:42:45 SOMA - First Impressions
0:58:46 UFO 50 - First Impressions
1:08:40 How it all Started Segment
Transcript
Phil: Hello, and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast.
Phil: I am Phil Fogg, and I'm joined by the great Tom Towers.
Phil: Tom, how are you?
Tom: I'm as great as ever.
Phil: Sounds like it.
Phil: I figured today we'd skip the news, and, you know, it is sort of coming up to Halloween, the spooky season, you've been playing some spooky games.
Phil: So I thought we might have a games-focused podcast this week.
Phil: What do you think?
Tom: That sounds good to me.
Phil: Excellent.
Phil: And probably the first game we will talk about is a game that I don't know much about.
Phil: It's called Amnesia, Machine for Pigs.
Tom: A Machine for Pigs.
Phil: What is it?
Tom: A Machine for Pigs.
Phil: A Machine for Pigs.
Phil: Now, this game came out in
Phil: Is this the first time that you've played it?
Tom: I think a long time ago, I played it for about two minutes, and then moved on to something else.
Tom: But this is the first time I've played it properly.
Phil: We talked about it a couple of episodes ago because the developer is the Chinese room who also developed, well, what was the name of that oil deck game that you were playing?
Tom: Still wakes the deep.
Phil: And Dear Esther, more notably.
Phil: And features some of the same designers, I believe, Dan Pinchbeck and Peter Howell.
Tom: Yeah.
Tom: And in this, I'm not sure if she was involved in the music on Still Wakes the Deep, but this features the composer.
Tom: I think it's Jessica Curry.
Tom: Hopefully, I've got her name right.
Tom: Who also did the music for Dear Esther.
Phil: Yeah, absolutely.
Phil: Jessica Curry was the composer of this game as well.
Phil: As I said, it was released in on pretty much everything.
Phil: It's available today on Switch and Windows.
Phil: But if you have your PlayStation and Xbox One, you can still get it there, and it's available on Linux too.
Phil: So, and even Mac.
Phil: It's a survival horror game, am I right?
Tom: That's correct.
Tom: It's part of the Amnesia series by Frictional Games.
Tom: I think this was the second one in the series after A Dark Descent.
Tom: And Frictional Games, while also being a publisher, is a developer, and they developed the first game in the series, and also the preceding series, which I think is somehow vaguely related, the Penumbra series.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: All of those words seem very familiar to me, but I haven't interacted with this series at all.
Phil: Is it a first person, third person?
Phil: Tell us about the game.
Tom: It's a first person horror game, and it's got some interesting mechanics.
Tom: You can basically pick up items by clicking on them with the left mouse button and carry them around and throw them to distract enemies, and that sort of thing.
Tom: And if you need to, for example, put a fuse in a fuse box, you'll have to, you pick up the fuse and you carry it to the fuse box and just sort of stick it in there.
Tom: So it's a very, and if you want to open a door, you click on the door and pull it open with the mouse and the same with levers, turning them on and off, those sorts of things.
Tom: So it's a very tactile experience, which I think was the case with previous games in the series as well, and it was the case with Penumbra
Phil: Yeah, this is that genre of game like Deus Ex, where you can open every draw, you can pick up anything, realistic physics as well.
Phil: Exactly.
Phil: Yeah, I detest this form of gaming.
Phil: Have you played a game like this before, like a Deus Ex or System Shock?
Tom: I played the original Deus Ex and a little bit of both sequels.
Phil: Yeah, and people love them.
Phil: I mean, people do love them.
Phil: And I think Bethesda-
Tom: Well, the original Deus Ex is one of the greatest games of all time without any question.
Phil: Yeah.
Tom: I think we need to go into details to why you hate the original Deus Ex.
Phil: Look, the original Deus Ex, I would have probably played for less than seven minutes just to turn it on to see if it started.
Phil: But I played the more recent Deus Ex games and games like this.
Phil: Like I said, there's a game Bethesda makes that's similar to this with the realistic physics and interactive everything.
Phil: And I just find them tremendously tedious.
Phil: In that it's giving me way more things to do than I need to do.
Phil: And I guess when I'm playing a game, I want to be immersed in it, but I don't want to open a drawer just because I can open a drawer if there's no payoff for opening that drawer.
Tom: I think in the case of this as opposed to something like Deus Ex, it's a lot more linear and pretty obvious as to what you actually need to interact with or not.
Tom: So I don't think it's really the same sort of experience as something like a Deus Ex.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: So it's more guided than that.
Phil: And there's a meaning for the things that are in the world.
Tom: I would say in the case of Deus Ex, that's true as well because it's rare that you'll be interacting with something in Deus Ex that either doesn't give you some form of environmental storytelling pay off or is related to how you're actually going to solve the problem you're faced with.
Phil: And that would be natural because when Deus Ex was originally released in you wouldn't have been able to have a completely immersive, interactive world.
Tom: I think Deus Ex is actually a more interactive world than most modern games.
Phil: Oh, really?
Tom: Yeah, I would say so.
Phil: Okay.
Tom: I think figuring out what you're interacting with and how it relates to what you're trying to solve is a question of creativity because there'll be a lot of things where you wouldn't think it would actually have any effect on what you're trying to do, but it actually does.
Phil: And I think what you're also describing is an incredible machine type game where, or even like a LucasArts point and click adventure where you have to figure out that if you pick up this and you pick up this other thing, then they'll interact.
Phil: And that's, to me, that's a puzzle based type of game.
Tom: But in the case of a machine for pigs, it doesn't, it's not really in-depth like that at all.
Tom: And it's very linear.
Tom: There aren't really creative solutions to particular problems.
Tom: It's really, there is probably the main gameplay mechanic in it is puzzle solving.
Tom: And it's really figuring it out.
Tom: The only way to solve the problem that you can, it doesn't really give you creative ways to solve a problem.
Tom: It's really just here is the solution to the problem and you've got to figure out what that is for the most part.
Tom: And a lot of the puzzle solving will also be based on, you can see what you need to do, but you've got to find the correct item to solve the problem within the world.
Tom: So a lot of it is based on exploration and looking for certain things like that.
Tom: The other main gameplay mechanic involved is with the monsters in the game.
Tom: And that's really pretty simple stealth or running away from to the correct area for the most part.
Tom: So I think this came after Amnesia The Dark Descent, which was praised for being very innovative horror, in that you couldn't attack the monster, you could only hide.
Tom: And I think the gameplay was a lot more complex than it is here.
Tom: This and I think a lot less linear as well.
Tom: So when this first came out, I think a lot of people hated it.
Tom: And it was not appreciated at the time.
Tom: I think over time, an appreciation for it has developed, but it is still probably for the most part seen as the worst in the series.
Tom: And I'm coming to it without having played properly any of the other games in the series.
Tom: So I'm not coming into it with many expectations.
Tom: And I'm also coming in to it as a fan of Dear Esther, and to a lesser extent, still wakes the deep as well.
Tom: So I was coming into it with expectations based on the Chinese Rooms, other games, as opposed to other games in the Amnesia series.
Phil: Right.
Phil: So this one is the only game in the series that was made by the Chinese Room.
Tom: That's right.
Tom: Yes.
Tom: All of the other games were developed by Fictional Games.
Tom: And I think originally, it was meant to be a spin-off rather than a main title in the series, but it grew into being a main title in the series as it was developed.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: Well, tell us a little bit about the setting.
Phil: We know it's a third-person survival horror.
Phil: You're solving environmental puzzles.
Phil: What is the setting?
Tom: So the setting is Edwardian London, I think in the very late s, not long before the First World War.
Tom: And it begins, you wake up in a bed that has a cage around it.
Tom: And as you're playing, you discover that you are a successful and wealthy industrialist of the era who went to, I think, Mexico, the New World, and had something of an epiphany there.
Tom: And as you are exploring the game, you speak to another character through these sort of intercom telephone machines, and you also uncover notes that you've written and have various flashback to events in Mexico and relate to your career as an industrialist.
Tom: And when you wake up, you've got two sons who you are trying to find within your mansion, which is built next to your factory.
Tom: And that's basically the main conceit of the plot as it begins.
Phil: So you're looking for your sons who are trapped or missing within your factory, slash, and or mention?
Tom: Exactly.
Phil: And you've gone to Mexico, had some sort of spiritual type experience there, and now you're back in late s London.
Tom: Correct, yes.
Phil: Okay.
Tom: All right.
Phil: Well, that's just like the oil rig game.
Phil: This is a perfect setting.
Phil: It's set up pretty well and it gets to introduce a lot of, you know, contrasting cultures and spiritualities.
Phil: So you're a rich dude.
Phil: Why is it important that you're a rich dude for the game and or the story?
Tom: Well, it's important you are a rich dude because you've built this machine which has revolutionized meat production.
Tom: And it is a machine for pigs, I believe, hence the title.
Phil: Now, obviously, one just could immediately, your kids have gone missing, you've invented a machine called pigs.
Phil: You're a capitalist, you know.
Phil: So, you know, on the face of it, you're gonna think that maybe this thing that you created that also created your wealth is the thing that's gonna destroy the thing that means the most to you, which is your children.
Phil: But it can't be that basic.
Phil: There's gotta be, because of the Mexico Aztec stuff, there's gotta be some weird spiritual dimension.
Phil: And because this is the five of horror, there's gotta be ghosts and ghoulies and bad, bad dudes.
Phil: So yeah.
Tom: I think we can't avoid going to spoilers later on.
Tom: So we'll get to that in more detail later on.
Phil: It is an year old game at this point.
Phil: And I think that even if it is quote spoiled for you from a story sense, it would still be enjoyable as a game, even if you knew what was going on, because a lot of this stuff is, you know, is it easy to see though as you're going?
Phil: Like how early on did you see these twists and turns?
Phil: Or is that part of the horror?
Tom: I think it's worth playing without spoilers.
Tom: Because I think as a horror game, as in terms of like the plot, it's very enjoyable.
Tom: I think thematically it is just as interesting.
Tom: I think the themes, it doesn't matter if they're spoiled.
Tom: I think you'll enjoy it just as much thinking about the themes with someone else's perspective or perhaps you might enjoy it even more than you would have without having a discussion about that beforehand.
Tom: But I think it's worth playing for the plot without spoilers.
Tom: So I'll try, I'll avoid spoilers to begin with.
Phil: Until the very end, okay.
Tom: Yeah.
Tom: But I would say the writing is heavily inspired by Heart of Darkness.
Tom: The story very much builds on someone from the colonial era.
Tom: And a lot of people don't necessarily know, but the peak of the British Empire is actually just before the First World War, which is probably not necessarily what a lot of people think of when they think of the British Empire.
Tom: But that was actually when it was at the absolute height of its powers, just before they fucked everything up completely, as is generally the case for the most part.
Tom: But it's very much inspired by Heart of Darkness and the literary tradition of these innocent colonists going to a colonial project or being exposed to a non-colonial culture, and having an epiphany there, and then coming back and being totally changed and seeing the society that they live in from a totally new perspective.
Tom: And the way they work that into the horror is, I think, really well done.
Tom: I think the mystery of looking for your children, it's pretty obvious from the beginning.
Tom: You're going along and as you're exploring the mansion, you'll see either your children running off and asking, telling you to chase them and that sort of thing, which is very clearly, I think, obviously visions.
Tom: So it's implying that something may or may not have happened to them already.
Tom: And as you're reading the notes, you discover you've been in bed because you have this fever, which you've had on and off since going to Mexico.
Tom: And I think as a horror gameplay experience, it's a fascinating game because for the majority of the game, you're actually in absolutely no danger whatsoever.
Tom: There are no monsters except in very specific areas, yet it manages to build this really powerful tension throughout the whole game so that uncovering the story itself becomes part of the horror, as opposed to avoiding monsters.
Tom: And for me, it was actually probably one of the most tense horror games I felt that didn't lose its tension at any point.
Tom: Whereas a lot of games where they'll have more monster interactions and more literal danger in terms of gameplay, you'll end up sort of knowing where that's going to be the case.
Tom: Like in Resident Evil, I think that's usually very much the case.
Tom: So in Resident Evil, you'll be confronted more often and more consistently with enemies, but they'll give you moments where very obviously you're not going to be in any sort of danger, and it gives you a good amount of downtime.
Tom: Here, weirdly, through doing the opposite thing, for me anyway, it didn't really feel like there was any sort of downtime to the tension.
Tom: That was there from the beginning to the end.
Tom: And for the payoff at the end, where you're seeing what the real purpose of the machine for pigs was, and you're seeing what is actually going on, you personally are not in any sort of danger, but the horror tension that is there is at its height, and is greater than when you are actually in any sort of danger yourself.
Tom: So I thought in terms of gameplay, by turning the usual horror structure on its head, it achieved a more powerful tension than the majority of horror games.
Tom: I think the closest thing to that I can think of is probably Silent Hill, which is another game where often you're not actually in any actual danger, yet the level of tension you're feeling doesn't go down.
Tom: It doesn't give you any respite, even when you're not being chased by a monster.
Phil: The game was well received when it came out.
Phil: It was originally supposed to come out for Halloween in but then was delayed because the expectations for the game had built up so much that they wanted to make sure they got it right according to what I've been reading.
Phil: But it came out to solid s from publishers like Edge magazine.
Phil: So a for them would be like a Phil Fogg .
Phil: And it got broadly s, s, peaking with a from PC Gamer.
Phil: So yeah, this game was much better received.
Phil: And I think the name probably...
Tom: I think that was actually a disappointing reception because the previous one, I think, was way better received than that.
Tom: Yeah, so the Metacritic for A Machine for Pigs is odd, and the Metacritic for The Dark Descent is
Tom: And I think the fan reception was even worse.
Tom: I think it was very negatively received by fans of the series.
Phil: Which you can understand.
Phil: I mean, if they're coming out, you know, if I'm just thinking about how I would do it, I've released this game, it's been successful.
Phil: So I'm like, okay, well, we work on number three, let's get this other studio to do a quick one.
Phil: They started developing
Phil: It was supposed to come out in October
Phil: And yeah, you can see why people would be critical of it, because it's a different studio making it, it's a different theme.
Phil: And fictional games basically said, from what I've read here, that they thought that this would be a quick game and we could get it out, but then we, the Chinese room came up with this construct that was so interesting that they decided, look, this game deserves better than just a quick turnout, take some time on it and get it right.
Phil: So I can see why the quote fan backlash would be there, because it wasn't exactly like the first game, which is what most people would be expecting going into a direct sequel.
Phil: But obviously, the Chinese room put their own stamp on it.
Phil: So yeah, it seems basically from what you've been saying so far, that's pretty positive.
Tom: Definitely.
Tom: Like I said, I think the only other horror game I can really think of that manages to maintain a similar level of tension throughout is probably the original Silent Hill, which coming from me is very high praise.
Tom: Silent Hill is, I think it's one of the few games I would consider giving a out of to.
Phil: Yeah, I haven't played the original, but I played the second one and the fantastic one that was on the Wii, that was made by the guy that would go on to make, what's his name, Sam, whatever his name is.
Phil: I think he went on to make her story.
Phil: But yeah, and I get what you're saying.
Tom: Sam Barlow.
Phil: Yeah, exactly.
Phil: Yeah, that game was brilliant.
Phil: And he went on to do The Quarry and the other interactive game that came out for PlayStation.
Phil: And just for anyone wondering, yes, this is the part where Phil talks about games he can't remember the names of.
Phil: So how does, I mean, are there baddies in this game?
Phil: Like how do they, how are you, you're not threatened yourself.
Phil: So is there a need to see these guys or is it just there to sort of scare you, something on the periphery?
Tom: Well, there are moments where you are threatened yourself.
Tom: There are these pig-like humanoid monsters who you encounter on and off.
Tom: But there's maybe about, I don't know, four or five encounters with them in total.
Phil: Wow.
Tom: And you're more likely to encounter them through glimpses where neither of you can get to each other.
Phil: So it's able to hold the tension the whole time with just that little interaction with some antagonists?
Tom: Yes.
Tom: And I will say the tension comes, like I said, not so much from the enemies, but from the setting and the storytelling.
Tom: So it's very unique, I think, in the way it manages to elicit tension from the player.
Phil: So it's got to be a short game then?
Tom: Yep.
Tom: I think maybe about four or five hours or so.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: Wow.
Phil: Well, that's a perfect horror experience then.
Phil: I'd be interested in this.
Tom: I think it's well worth playing.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: I think what's put me off it from all over the years is that a machine for pigs.
Phil: I just thought it was not this sort of game.
Phil: I thought it was a...
Phil: Well, I just thought it was not this sort of game.
Phil: I didn't think it was a serious game.
Phil: But now that you've talked about it and I've seen it, I can see that.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: It's certainly something worth looking at.
Phil: Audio, I guess the same composer was on it.
Phil: So the music composition was great.
Phil: What about the non-music audio in the game?
Tom: I think at the music we've got to talk about though.
Tom: I think the music is a big step up from T-Rex which had great music in and of itself.
Tom: I think the music here is very, very interesting.
Tom: It's got a lot of what you would expect from a horror game, but then it's got these really interesting choral compositions throughout it here and there that you wouldn't expect to hear in a horror game.
Tom: Yet, it's this great mix of beautiful yet weird choral singing that just stands out.
Tom: And the moments they use it in are always interesting.
Tom: So I think the music is a huge highlight here, even more so than in Dear Esther, where it was excellent.
Phil: The oral presentation when there is no music is what we're like, are you in the mansion and also in the factory?
Tom: Yes.
Tom: So you begin in the mansion and you end up in the factory.
Phil: And are there other people around like the people that work for you or?
Tom: No, it is for the most part empty of other people and beings.
Tom: But throughout, as I said, you come across these intercoms through which you speak to someone.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: And as in typical Deus Ex, is it notes around or memory logs?
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: I hate that.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: I absolutely hate that stuff.
Phil: So the obvious next question is, what's the visual type presentation?
Phil: Is there any artistic at play or is it just realistic D?
Phil: Did it seem authentic to the setting?
Tom: I think it was a very interesting use of the setting and included things that people wouldn't necessarily associate with the era but are accurate.
Tom: So like the lighting in the game is for the most part electric, as opposed to gas or just naked flames as would be the case in a very opulent mansion like this.
Tom: I think the use of art in the mansion as well was very interesting.
Tom: I think that is not necessarily so accurate to the era but it certainly adds to the atmosphere.
Phil: Do the paintings come alive?
Tom: No, they don't.
Phil: Okay, that's disappointing.
Phil: Can you jump into the paintings and go to another land?
Tom: No, sadly not.
Phil: I see that left a lot on the table.
Phil: That's unfortunate.
Tom: I have.
Phil: Now, is it all corridors and stuff or is it any open areas?
Tom: It's a mixture of large rooms, corridors, and there are also outdoor areas as well, both gardens and street settings.
Phil: Oh, okay.
Phil: That is surprising.
Phil: I would have thought, okay.
Tom: So they managed to cover quite a lot of ground.
Phil: Yeah, okay.
Phil: Well, do you want to at this point get into spoilers which we can flag for people?
Tom: Well, we give it a score before we get into the spoilers.
Phil: That's a good idea.
Phil: That's a bloody good idea.
Phil: Let's give it a score with the old Dye of Destiny.
Tom: I got the Dye of Destiny ready.
Tom: Gets a out of unfortunately.
Phil: Well, see, I was going to play it.
Phil: But I think we need to come up with a prop that fights back the Dye of Destiny, like the Minifig of the Mind or the Mindful Minifig where you throw a LEGO character, and if he lands upside down, or then it triples the score or something.
Tom: What about you rate the game based on my impressions?
Phil: Based on your impressions, I'd say this is a solid to out of
Tom: And then we'll split it in two.
Tom: So we've got to divide by
Phil: No, based by-
Tom: For the overall score.
Phil: I think based on-
Phil: I've listened to you talk about a lot of games.
Phil: I think that you think very highly of this game, and I think that it would be in most people's minds, an .
Phil: Maybe I could be the Mindful Minifig.
Tom: The Mindful Minifog.
Phil: Minifog.
Phil: Hey, there you go.
Phil: The Mindful Minifog.
Phil: I'll write that one down.
Phil: Okay, well, let's get into spoilers.
Phil: But before we do so, if you don't want to be spoiled for this game, and Tom says you shouldn't be, remember that in most podcast applications, you can use the chapter markers and just skip straight ahead to the next game and not be spoiled.
Phil: We'll see you on the other side.
Phil: But for all you people that don't care, let's go ahead and spoil some stuff.
Tom: I think the spoilers here, I think the most interesting part about them isn't so much the game itself as the literary flash artistic tradition it's a part of.
Tom: Which has continued to the present day.
Tom: And this may be, I think, one of the foremost examples of it around, at least in pop culture, as opposed to maybe more literary areas.
Tom: But so essentially what happened was, he goes to, I think, I hope, I hope I was right that it's Mexico, and encounters an Aztec orb, which gives him a vision of the future, and all the horrors that occur in the th century, the First World War, Pol Pot, the Second World War, so on and so forth.
Phil: And so if it's Aztec, then it's most definitely Mexico, so you're safe on that one.
Phil: So he finds the orb, and it foretells what's going to happen in the th century, and it's all this really bad, dark stuff.
Tom: That's right, correct.
Phil: How do they portray that in the game?
Phil: Do they, like how, would they have a picture of Pol Pot, or like what are they, how do they do it?
Tom: They have a monologue at the end.
Phil: Oh, okay, so it's not visual.
Tom: No, which I think is to its benefit.
Tom: Because the whole thing, the majority of the game is basically, I think the majority of the themes are presented through the writing.
Tom: Like there's references to it in the setting of the mansion with the sort of things that the protagonist has collected and decorated the mansion with.
Tom: But for the most part, the majority of the story telling, not dissimilar to Dear Esther is through the writing and the narration and acting.
Tom: And I think it does a better job of that than Dear Esther.
Phil: Okay, so spoil me.
Phil: Besides Pell Pot, what else do they have?
Phil: World War I, World War II, Nagasaki?
Tom: Yep.
Tom: They also have the atomic bombs.
Tom: And more relevant to the protagonist, he sees that his sons both die in the Battle of the Somme in the First World War.
Tom: So having seen what the future is, first of all, when he goes to Mexico, as is tradition, he being exposed to another culture and civilization, he sees the horror of his own.
Tom: And so his machine for pigs and his revolutionizing of meat production begins by collecting rich people and other aristocrats and that sort of thing, adding them to his meat production and feeding them to the poor, which I thought was a pretty hilarious.
Phil: Yeah, pretty easy one.
Phil: Among the horrors that is foretold by the Aztec war, do they show the return of Grimace to McDonald's in ?
Phil: No, they don't.
Phil: Because that would tie in with the pink slime of McDonald's.
Tom: I think this would get to an alternative ending, because as the game ends, he stops the machine from carrying out its doomsday plans, which I'll get into in a minute.
Tom: But in an alternative ending to the game, which was scrapped, which I think would have actually been an interesting ending, he instead of stopping the machine, he used the machine to split the atom, creating a large nuclear explosion, which was to destroy the empire, perhaps the world.
Phil: He takes a meat processing device and goes, no, stuff that, we're going to stop making sausages, let's use it to split the atom.
Tom: Exactly.
Tom: That was the alternative ending.
Phil: I'm glad they dropped it.
Tom: I like it.
Tom: I like it.
Tom: I think it adds to the unintentional humor, but also the crisis of the protagonist.
Phil: But, so, as I said, from what you described so far, I love it.
Phil: I think that's a great premise, and it makes me wonder, well, what would I do?
Phil: Now, he's only a man of means.
Phil: Right?
Phil: So he, like, if me and you discovered that, like, there's nothing we can do except be like really glum.
Phil: We could probably profit from it by writing a book, saying, you know, what my mind says will happen.
Phil: You won't make any money off it, but if you try and make it as well known as possible, at least in the future, people would go, wow, man, that's Phil Fogg.
Phil: He knew it all.
Phil: I mean, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
Phil: This guy was Nostradamus, you know, sort of thing.
Phil: But a profit in his own times is often not lauded.
Phil: So how does it change in the game?
Phil: We might be jumping ahead.
Phil: So in the game, how does that actually change what he does?
Tom: Well, the thing is, the thing is, which I think makes the story a lot more interesting than other takes on this sort of thing is, the whole thing begins with him trying to make the world a better place, with his meat production, focusing on charitable work and improving things for the poor people of London.
Tom: And this idea gradually snowballs into becoming this totally different thing, culminating with his idea of destroying the entirety of humanity for its betterment, which I think is in such stories is often missed because if we look at any of the terrible things that happened in the th century, which is what caused his crisis of conscience in the first place, none of those things were not done without the best of intentions, from the Holocaust to Pol Pot to the nuclear bomb.
Tom: Everyone who did all of those things believed they were doing a great thing that was for the good of humanity, which I think in depictions of these things is usually totally missed.
Tom: These people instead are depicted as merely sadists who wanted to do the worst thing possible because they hated everyone, right?
Phil: No, yeah, of course.
Phil: Yeah, everyone was acting because I think it's the right thing to do.
Phil: Otherwise, how could you convince people to kill other people for the sake of cause?
Phil: So this guy, do you think that Alfred Nobel, the inventor of dynamite, you know, you can almost say like at some point, he had an epiphany that, oh God, what have I created?
Phil: You know, nitroglycerin and the devastation of it.
Phil: And he invented that in the late s as well.
Phil: And then at his death, he obviously realized what he had done and he donated his fortune to a foundation, you know, that to this day awards the Nobel Peace Prize.
Phil: And it's kind of the same, I mean, this game kind of follows that same sort of path.
Phil: Like somehow, Nobel, obviously he didn't find some Aztecian orb that showed him what his machine that he had created would do.
Phil: Otherwise, and if it was a video game, he'd then probably turn dynamite into something that could create sausages.
Tom: Well, dynamite is already sausage shaped.
Phil: It is, it's quite simple, really.
Phil: You just put different things in the case.
Tom: Just put meat in it instead of explosive.
Phil: There you go.
Phil: And it's quite harmful and tasty.
Phil: And then you think perhaps about Oscar Mayer, you know, a tremendous visionary.
Phil: Who would think to encase, you know, the awful, the things you can't use, the who's, the tongues, the hearts, into a hot dog and invent the hot dog?
Phil: And that's a, you know, it's a good marketing name to hot dog.
Phil: Who wouldn't want a hot dog?
Phil: You know?
Phil: But you have to think that, seriously though, you have to think that in the writing of this game that Alfred Nobel would have come up, right?
Tom: I would think so.
Tom: And particularly because, so, as I said, you're speaking to someone via intercom, and it turns out who you're speaking to is the machine.
Tom: But for the machine to function, you have basically put a part of yourself in the machine, the part of yourself that wants to destroy everything, right?
Phil: A part of yourself into the machine.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: I get it.
Tom: So you're basically, throughout the game, having this discussion between these two sides of yourself and seeing which side will ultimately win out in the end.
Phil: So it's not a could you kindly type situation.
Phil: No.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: So I think this one sounds like a really good psychological, I wouldn't say thriller, but a psychological something and analysis.
Phil: Is there a positive, is there something at the end where he saves his kids, or is it end on a dark note as a conjecture?
Tom: Well, it turns out that in fact, his children are the first thing that he sacrificed to the machine.
Tom: His children have been dead all along.
Phil: So a premonition of Dear Esther.
Tom: Yes.
Phil: So what does this say about Dan Pinchbeck, the writer of both games?
Phil: Has he got his own experience in this stuff?
Tom: We need to research as to whether he has any children or not, and as to the current status of them in regards to whether they are dead or alive or not.
Tom: Is that what you're saying?
Phil: I think it might be late at this stage in but someone needs to check up on his kids in a hurry.
Tom: I think so.
Tom: Just to be on the safe side.
Phil: I think so.
Phil: All right.
Phil: Is that all we have to say about this brilliant game, Amnesia, Machine?
Phil: No.
Tom: The last thing I would say in terms of this whole theme that we've seen repeated in Western art since at least Heart of Darkness, which again from a similar era to this a little bit later, but close enough, is this whole thing of, and I think another example of that is what's it called?
Tom: The Marlon Brando starring Marlon Brando.
Tom: Apocalypse Now.
Phil: Apocalypse Now, which is now Apocalypse Then.
Tom: Yeah, exactly.
Tom: The thing I find interesting about these things, and I think this is maybe the least like that, because he does go there and have an epiphany to try and make things better in the colonizing place that he's from, which then all goes to shit.
Tom: But I think Apocalypse Now is by far the worst example of this, without any question, particularly given that it's an American film and about Vietnam and not so long after it.
Tom: What you end up with is you have these colonizers going to these other places and seeing the bad things are there.
Tom: But for the most part, having this horrific vision of the dark nature of humanity and taking it back home in some way, whether in the case of Heart of Darkness, that's in the inability to function in that society, knowing what it's doing, or in the case of Apocalypse, now becoming that, as if by going to Vietnam, it turned America into this evil war machine, which is just a totally comically absurd notion.
Tom: Whereas in reality, what did colonization give to Western civilization and culture?
Tom: It literally gave them civilization without England going to India and China.
Tom: All of the things that we define civilization as, such as bureaucracy and complex political apparatus that can function internationally and nationally in a complex manner would not exist.
Phil: I was thinking more of tea and marmalade, but yeah, that too.
Tom: Well, see, that's the thing we're able to accept within the broader thing that we get tea, which is a stimulant drug, and sugar, which is another stimulant drug.
Tom: So it's all the bad things that we've received.
Phil: And fireworks.
Tom: Yep, and fireworks, as opposed to the defining things of our civilization which we consider to be the good things.
Tom: I think this is interesting because he brought back, and it went to shit, of course, but he brought back something good from the colonization.
Tom: He brought back empathy, which he didn't have before, as opposed to, and that then went wrong, but at least it was a positive thing he brought.
Phil: I was going to say, how did that work out for him?
Tom: In the end, it worked out well.
Phil: All right, let's move on to another game with a horror theme.
Phil: This is a game I wanted to play forever.
Phil: From the time I first heard about it in I was like, me and you have to play this game.
Phil: Have to.
Phil: And I finally downloaded it, and I played it and then I moved on.
Phil: I mean, I literally just played it to see if it installed.
Phil: And it's by the same people.
Phil: Well, it's published, yeah, developed and published by Frictional Games.
Phil: And that's the same people, right?
Tom: Yep.
Phil: So another survival horror.
Tom: That's right.
Tom: And this is developed by Frictional Games as well as published by them.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: So this must be what they were working on while the Chinese Room was doing the sequel, because it came out in September
Tom: And it could be that this gave them the, that a machine for pigs developing into a larger project is what allowed them the opportunity to develop this, rather than having to produce another game in the Amnesia series.
Phil: It's not quite on everything.
Phil: It's on Linux and Mac, PlayStation Windows and Xbox One.
Phil: So most people these days would access it through, through Windows.
Phil: I don't think it's had a re-release or a remaster or anything like that.
Tom: I don't think so.
Phil: And I'm not as familiar with frictional games as I am the Chinese room, but this is also a survival horror and single player.
Phil: Is it first or third?
Phil: This is a first person one as I recall.
Tom: Correct.
Phil: And it's set not in Edwardian England, but from my mind, I thought it was set in the near future, or possibly just the future.
Phil: It has to be the future because it's full of robots and stuff, right?
Tom: Well, it depends on which part of the game.
Tom: It begins with a present day setting.
Tom: I think it was released in right?
Phil: Well, it takes place in...
Phil: I'm sorry to have to back check you here.
Phil: The setting is in in the Underworld Research Facility.
Tom: See, this is where you're incorrect because it begins in
Phil: Okay.
Tom: The protagonist has some neurological problem, and he is going to have a brain scan, to for an experimental brain scan, and from when once you have had the brain scan, you then wake up in or whatever you said it was.
Tom: So it begins in
Phil: Okay, so first-person survival horror.
Phil: I'm guessing this has just got an incredible graphics, like just being realistic type graphics, right?
Phil: There's nothing artistic about it.
Tom: Correct, yep.
Phil: And doesn't have any of the Chinese-owned people working on it, which they wouldn't be.
Phil: They were doing their own thing at that point.
Phil: So, okay, well, just tell us about Soma.
Tom: Well, I think the most striking thing about it is definitely the way it begins.
Tom: As I said, begins in this perfectly normal setting.
Tom: Reminds me a lot of not being John Malkovich, but another, what is it?
Tom: Is it Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?
Tom: It reminds me of that film a lot, but it is just such a great opening to a horror science fiction game where it begins in a totally normal setting with the only slightly sort of weird thing being this experimental brain scan, and then it just drops you into this totally different world, which is an incredible opening.
Tom: And so from then on, you are potentially the only human entity in this world.
Tom: As you explore, you encounter robots who appear to believe that they are human, and some of them are antagonistic, and some of them interact with you normally.
Tom: I think the first interaction with them is a great, is a very off-putting experience where you encounter this robot that has, I think it's had something fall on it, and it's asking you for help, and it is convinced that it's human, and you can see that it isn't human, creating this very disconcerting interaction with it.
Tom: And you have no form of knowledge of the setting you are in, and you're there basically not as an amnesiac, hence it's not part of the amnesia series, but you were there having had no prior knowledge of the setting that you were in.
Phil: So, how is it that you've turned up in this place?
Phil: Again, because you had a brain scan, is this again like the other games just all in your head?
Phil: Like, are you going to find...
Phil: Yeah, yeah, I guess that's probably a spoiler.
Phil: Are you going to find out that this is all just in your head?
Tom: Well, these are my first impressions.
Tom: I certainly have my theory as to what is going on.
Tom: I would presume if we can venture into...
Tom: I don't think it's spoilers because this is my theory.
Phil: Yeah.
Tom: So given the fact that you are interacting with robots who believe that you are human, I would presume that the brain scan, which was to essentially map out your brain, somehow I would assume your brain scan has ended up in this underwater facility in the future and you have been uploaded into some machine or something else.
Phil: Brilliant.
Phil: So it was an experimental brain scan that you were getting, and now you may have been replicated tens of thousands of times as the basis for artificial intelligence for these robots in terms of how they think and how they do things.
Phil: Were you someone who, what role were you playing?
Phil: Like were you a scientist or something like that?
Tom: You were just a random dude.
Phil: Well, okay.
Phil: Well, it would have been more interested if you were like a NASA astronaut or something like that, where they're like wanting to develop you all and clone you because you've got certain attributes, but-
Tom: Well, the reason why I think my theory could still work, and this would be, I would say, maybe a minor spoiler, but it's pretty obvious the moment you end up underwater.
Tom: Some catastrophe has occurred on earth.
Tom: So there are potentially not many people left around.
Tom: So perhaps they have been in response to this catastrophe that has potentially wiped out much of humanity, been looking for people who have had their brain scanned and you being participating in this experimental scientific study, have ended up being added to the number of people who have been recreated in one way or another.
Phil: So what are you doing then in this game?
Phil: You wake up, what's your purpose for wanting to do anything?
Phil: You're just trying to figure out where you are and-
Tom: I think you're trying to figure out where you are and what is going on.
Phil: And nothing more than that?
Tom: I would say to begin with nothing more than that, then you have other reasons to continue on later on.
Tom: But I would say that will be venturing into spoiler territory if I was to go into detail there.
Phil: So how in terms of your-
Phil: how many hours into this game are you?
Tom: I would say a couple of hours probably.
Tom: Okay.
Phil: All right.
Phil: And most people beat this game in nine hours.
Phil: So yeah, it's early days yet.
Phil: So what are-
Phil: how are your interactions with the artificial intelligence robots?
Phil: What-
Phil: do they pull it off pretty well?
Tom: So in terms of the ones you talk to, you're basically just talking to them.
Tom: In terms of the ones that are enemies, I think not dissimilar to the Amnesia series or Penumbra, you can't fight against them.
Tom: So it's a matter of using stealth to avoid them pretty much.
Tom: And I think the interesting thing is, which goes back to something we were saying about Dear Esther and Disco Elysium, I would pretty much categorize this game as a walking simulator with very brief stealth sections in it.
Tom: So the puzzle solving is, I would say even simpler than it was in A Machine for Pigs, which was very much heavily criticized by people who did not enjoy it, for being a walking simulator.
Tom: I think the stealth sections, they're less janky and awkward than they are in A Machine for Pigs, but they're really not any more complicated.
Tom: And so far this could become more complex later on, but so far they're probably even shorter than they are in A Machine for Pigs.
Tom: So I think this goes back to what I said in my Disco Elysium impressions.
Tom: I think the only reason this has not been denigrated and criticized as being a walking simulator is the way the storytelling works and the setting is acceptable.
Tom: So it's science fiction.
Tom: It's much more simplistic science fiction with less obvious themes.
Tom: I mean, thematically, it is great so far.
Tom: Don't get me wrong.
Tom: But it's not as thematically complex or interesting as I would say anyway.
Tom: So far, A Machine for Pigs, it doesn't talk about some wanky thing like colonialism and capitalism so far.
Tom: It's philosophically interesting but it's not philosophically interesting in a way that it's going to make you question things about the society you live in.
Phil: And you know, there's a place for that, certainly.
Tom: Yeah, I'm not mentioning that as a criticism whatsoever.
Tom: I'm just saying if they veered into that, people might be saying, this is a shitty walking simulator, fuck this crap game.
Tom: That's all I'm saying.
Phil: And in fact, it did get a really good critical reception, mostly s to s.
Tom: And was loved by fans of frictional games.
Phil: And loved by fans of survival horror.
Phil: And I remember at the time, the reason I was so interested in getting it is that the zeitgeist of the time was that, hey, this game's a thinking game.
Phil: Like this is something that you're going to play, it's going to challenge you, you're going to have fun with it, but also it's going to go places.
Phil: And in doing so, with its setting, rather than, you know, Edwardian England, you know, that's kind of good in a way that they've made it more accessible to people who play video games, a lot of video games in terms of its setting, because then they're there to be able to receive the message that you're going to put forward.
Phil: If you start throwing them off by saying, okay, this is first person, but you're on an island and there's not really much on the island and there's no other people to interact with and all you're going to hear is a narrator, you know, it's just going to lose people before they can actually get to the point of the game.
Phil: Unless you get to appreciate games that are different, which is what we do here.
Phil: So those are very good first impressions.
Phil: I have it installed.
Phil: So I will add it to the long list of games I really want to play and start.
Phil: I might catch up with you though.
Phil: Is it?
Tom: I would highly recommend both this and A Machine for Pigs.
Tom: I think they're two games you should definitely play.
Tom: And I think they're interesting.
Tom: I think they're interesting to play with each other.
Tom: Because there are, like I said, a lot of similarities and I think it's an interesting experience when you take into account the reactions to both games, given the similarities that are there, that I think is sort of ignored.
Tom: And a lot of it is very much based on window dressing things.
Tom: Like the writing in Soma is, first of all, it's way worse than it is in A Machine for Pigs.
Tom: And the fact that the writing is worse, I think, is part of what makes it accessible.
Tom: Because thematically, it could end up being as interesting, if not more limited, than A Machine for Pigs.
Tom: I need to play more of it to reach a conclusion, because the strikingness of the opening is exceptional writing.
Tom: But then on a minute-to-minute basis, the writing is horrendous compared to A Machine for Pigs.
Tom: But the storytelling is in an acceptable manner.
Tom: So instead of it being basically all interior monologue, even if it doesn't appear to be interior monologue, it is, the logs you're looking at aren't obviously the protagonist's thoughts.
Tom: It's things being replayed that have occurred on the station.
Tom: The writing is not particularly good.
Tom: It's not like the original Bioshock writing, where that stuff is handled really well.
Tom: It's pretty awkward at times.
Tom: And it's, once you're starting to veer into more being revealed about what's going on perhaps with the robots, it's not done in a particularly believable manner due to the awkwardness of the writing and the voice acting struggles with the quality of the writing at times.
Tom: Whereas the voice acting in A Machine for Pigs is exceptional throughout.
Tom: And is at the standard of the writing.
Phil: So does that pretty much wrap up your first impressions of Soma?
Tom: I would say so.
Phil: Excellent.
Phil: Well, I might give it a start at least, maybe put a couple of hours into it and see, see how I go with it for the next time that we talk about it.
Tom: The one thing I would add actually is, I think that Frictional Games was willing to allow the Chinese Room to develop a machine for pigs into a full game, and make Soma as well.
Tom: While still being a horror game and in terms of gameplay similar to the Amnesia and Penumbra series, I think shows, there's a lot about them.
Tom: I think that's very impressive.
Tom: A lot of publishers, I don't think, would let someone work on what has been their main series in terms of money generation, and do something that is totally different to other games in that series, and work on something themselves simultaneously that's very different, at least in terms of setting compared to other games in that series as well.
Phil: Oh yeah, I think it's frictional.
Phil: It's frictional, by the way, FRI, for the people who are listening.
Phil: I think they're really commended.
Phil: I thought they showed great vision in character by letting someone else have their baby while they worked on something else, and yeah, really good.
Phil: Okay, so we're going to move on to a game that just came out in September called UFO
Phil: UFO was supposed to have come out in and instead, it was supposed to be a project.
Phil: Now, everyone's assigning this game to Derek Yu, the maker of Spelunky, and this game was supposed to come out between Spelunky and Spelunky
Phil: It was just a small side project that he wanted to work on.
Phil: But we've got to attribute that there are six other developers, Eric Surick, John Perry, Paul Hubens, Ohiro Fumoto and Tyreek Plummer, who also worked on this game.
Phil: It's not just a Derek Yu game.
Phil: And I just don't like it when people only mention the guy at the top, because obviously a great many people put a lot of years into this game.
Phil: And what it is, is it's a game that's presented as a compilation of games.
Phil: So if you can imagine the rare games compendium, you know, that had Banjo-Kazooie and Perfect Dark and all that, all of the games that Rare ever made on one DVD that came out for the Xbox One, I think.
Phil: So this is for a fictional console that never existed by, that was a games that were made by a fictional developer called UFO.
Phil: And basically, this is a compendium of all of the games that they ever made.
Phil: Starting in the -bit era and ending at the end of the -bit era.
Phil: And so that's what the presentation of these games are.
Phil: They have a Commodore type, you know, story screen at the start, which shows that, shows Derek Yu, I think, and Eric Cirque, finding these games in a storage locker.
Phil: And from that very simple, you know, three screen story, you basically get cartridges in front of you, you pick which one you want, they're in chronological order.
Phil: And they're basically student apps, platformers and role playing games, and some shorter arcade type games as well.
Phil: So in terms of their presentation, I'd say that they're very authentic.
Phil: You know, they look a lot like the games I've been playing so far.
Phil: This is only a first impressions because I've played about of the
Phil: Most of them looking bit.
Phil: So I started at the beginning and then I went to the end and worked backwards to play those games just so I could see what the scope of these were.
Phil: I've got to say that the audio is outstanding.
Phil: The music is absolutely outstanding.
Phil: So credit to the composer, which was Yirik Surik.
Phil: It's probably the best thing about the game that I've enjoyed so far other than the concept.
Phil: What do you think of the concept of the game?
Tom: I think it's an interesting concept, particularly with the games changing over the years.
Phil: Yeah, it's basically trying to show you the development of this developer as they've gone along.
Phil: But also, what they do is they add modern sensibilities to these old games.
Phil: So while they may be keeping close to, but not true to, the technology of the time in terms of the graphics and the sound, they've introduced what a modern game developer would do with this old architecture, which is exactly what they've done.
Phil: Now, this wasn't done using old Nest development kits and things like that.
Phil: It's used making Game Maker Studio is the engine.
Phil: And I should say this is available on Windows exclusively right now.
Phil: It's not available on anything else, though you could imagine it could be easily ported to anything.
Phil: It's a very small install about, what did I say it was, about megabytes or something like that?
Tom: Something like that.
Tom: I think the download might only be megabytes.
Phil: Yeah, whereas the hard drive space is a bit more than that.
Phil: So, and it's at the right price.
Phil: And if you're in the US, I think it's bucks and elsewhere, it's whatever your local currency is in USD.
Phil: So it's affordable, quick to download, took a long time to develop.
Phil: In reading an interview with Derek Yu in Edge magazine, he said, you know, when you're making a game and you get delayed by a week, you know, you're delayed by a week, but when you're making games and you get delayed by a week, that's practically a year.
Phil: And that's kind of what happened with this game.
Phil: So I think they were really dedicated.
Phil: He said right from the start, it had to be games.
Phil: They didn't want to do UFO and then like have other expansions.
Phil: There is apparently a minor meta game that is going on with this, or a meta story element that is going on with it.
Phil: Do you want to highlight your favorite game of the ones that you've played of the UFO ?
Tom: So far, I've played two games.
Phil: Okay.
Tom: And of those two, my favorite was the snake game.
Phil: The snake ripoff.
Phil: Did they do anything modern with the snake ripoff though?
Tom: I'm not sure.
Tom: I think I kept dying for some reason I couldn't quite work out.
Tom: I think maybe I hit the wall and died.
Tom: But I thought I was moving left and pressed up or whatever direction I was going in and avoided the wall.
Tom: But at that point, I always died.
Tom: So the modern edition was something I didn't understand because I didn't remember that being an issue with normal or the original versions of snake.
Phil: So did you just pick one at random or?
Tom: Yeah, I just picked games at random too.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: The one I liked the most was Paint Chase, which is basically Splatoon.
Phil: But if you had to make it as an arcade game for
Phil: So it's top down.
Phil: You're in charge of these cars that have paint rollers on the front of them.
Phil: And your job is to paint as much, well, just like Splatoon, your job is to paint as much of the field as possible.
Phil: While these AI opponents basically try to beat you or paint over what you've painted.
Phil: It was really brilliant.
Phil: And I think that's what this game is going to bring.
Phil: Or at least I hope this is what this game is going to bring.
Phil: Is taking these, you know, new novel elements that have happened in gaming since and going, okay, if you knew about Splatoon in and someone said, go make an arcade port of this, you'd go, well, I can't have...
Phil: First of all, it's got to be top down.
Phil: Second of all, I can't animate human figures.
Phil: It's got to be a car because it's basically a rectangle.
Phil: And I'll figure out the rest.
Phil: I think that's probably where the joy of this game is going to develop.
Phil: The other games I played, I can't say were very notable at all.
Phil: Now, I wasn't a very big -bit.
Phil: Like I was not a very strong enthusiast of -bit gaming.
Phil: So there's probably something I'm missing out on there.
Phil: And probably I was a bit impatient as I went through some of these, because if something didn't work right away, I'm on to the next one.
Phil: So I'm sure there's going to be other games that we can talk about in the future.
Phil: I did play Waldorf's Journey and Porgy, which is a Metroidvania.
Phil: And it's like, some of these games are quite long, almost full length.
Phil: There's some RPGs in there that are full on -bit RPGs.
Phil: So I can't argue about the value of it.
Phil: Certainly, I've heard everyone gushing about it.
Phil: It's got a on Metacritic and on OpenCritic.
Phil: Eurogamer gave it a perfect score.
Phil: GameSpot gave it a out of and PCGamer gave it an
Phil: So, you know, I'm obviously at this point not getting the same thing that other people who are playing it are getting out of it.
Phil: I've even heard people saying that they would nominate one of the games in this collection for their game of the year.
Phil: So, yeah, I'm clearly not missing something with it.
Phil: And it could have been because I overstudied for it, because I read two Edge articles for it, and then I've heard a thousand podcasts talk kindly about it.
Phil: So maybe my expectations were a little too high.
Tom: Well, so far, I would rather play a different version of Snake.
Tom: That's all I'll say.
Phil: A different version from the one you played?
Tom: I think this was not, as you'd be hoping for, this was not one of the best versions of Snake I've played.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: So we don't have too much good things to say about that.
Phil: Were you a fan of Spelunky at least?
Tom: I'm not sure I ever played Spelunky.
Tom: I don't think I did.
Phil: Well, that makes two of us.
Phil: We seem like we don't know what we're talking about now.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: So with that, we're going to go into our how it started segment, and that is how we're going to finish this podcast.
Phil: There is some merit that some game series garner more cultural relevance and improve as games the longer they run, and some games don't really start at their first release.
Phil: Do you understand where I'm coming from with this?
Tom: We'll see.
Tom: So far, I think I do.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: So like, if I were to say, and something we talked about before, and the last time we played this was Halo, like what's the first?
Phil: The first Halos, obviously Halo.
Phil: So I want to hear from your perspective, what was the first Halo for most people and then what was the first Halo for you?
Phil: So for you personally, where did this series really, franchise really pick up?
Phil: And then also from the greater gaming community.
Phil: So maybe if you can start with saying, oh, well, this is the game that broke out for this franchise, for the community, but then for you personally, which game was it where you went, yeah, okay, now I get it.
Tom: Halo
Phil: Right.
Phil: Exactly.
Phil: And that's what you said last time.
Phil: So for another example would be Yakuza.
Phil: So for me, I got it right away.
Phil: The first game was brilliant and it took years for the rest of the world to catch up.
Phil: And so I forget what it was even called.
Phil: It's not the Kiwami series, but Yakuza
Phil: Like it took until Yakuza which is a prequel to the first game, before people really put onto it.
Phil: And now, of course, you've got the like a dragon series.
Phil: Well, now Yakuza is called like a dragon.
Phil: And you've got those two RPGs have really caught fire.
Phil: So hopefully the listeners understand as well.
Phil: So I'm going to give you the name of a popular franchise.
Phil: And you're going to tell me when did it take off for the world and when did it take off for you?
Phil: And I'll start with a big one, Final Fantasy.
Tom: I think Final Fantasy, I'm going to go with Final Fantasy
Tom: And I'm going to go with Final Fantasy for both, I think.
Phil: You don't?
Phil: Yeah, okay.
Phil: Make your argument.
Tom: Some people, I don't know, some people might say Final Fantasy or is the first one that was more like the structure of the latter Final Fantasy games?
Phil: Okay, so Final Fantasy was the first one that adopted the structure.
Tom: Okay.
Phil: And when I say three, I mean the Japanese three, because Final Fantasy in the west was Final Fantasy
Phil: So just forgetting all that rubbish, we're in the west.
Phil: So Final Fantasy is basically where it set up that franchise for what it was to be.
Phil: The Final Fantasy as it was released in the United States.
Phil: Yep.
Tom: I would still go with Final Fantasy because I don't think the previous Final Fantasy games were certainly big, but I think Final Fantasy that game was absolutely everywhere in terms of advertising and cultural impact in a way that I don't think previous Final Fantasy games were.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: And I think because of that, yeah, it was big.
Phil: It was big culturally, but I think because of that, Final Fantasy had a massive amount of returns because people saw the ads on TV before the FMV, and then they start playing it, and they're like, what the hell?
Phil: These tiny little two inch tall polygonal characters, and what?
Phil: This game is like four discs.
Phil: So I think that's where it broke through to everyone else.
Phil: But I'm going to, well, now, why is it for you?
Phil: You're first.
Tom: I think that's the first Final Fantasy I played, and it's still up there with my favorites in the series to today.
Tom: I think I originally played it, borrowing it with a PlayStation from one of the VHS rental places that existed in that era.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: So you weren't at someone else's house when you first played it?
Tom: No.
Phil: As is often the case.
Tom: No.
Tom: This one wasn't...
Tom: that wasn't the case, no.
Phil: So you rented it.
Phil: Did it smell like cigarettes?
Tom: I don't think so, no.
Phil: Well, that's good.
Phil: For me, Final Fantasy, obviously as a cultural phenomenon, broke out with Seven.
Phil: But I'd say that the gaming community was behind Final Fantasy right from the very beginning.
Phil: I think that in America or in the quote West, it was probably Final Fantasy that really caught fire.
Phil: Now for me, the first Final Fantasy that caught fire, Final Fantasy which was four in Japan, was the first game that I played and I absolutely loved it.
Phil: But when it really clicked for me, was when I played Final Fantasy
Phil: And then I went back and then played Final Fantasy through
Phil: And those to me are the golden years of Final Fantasy.
Phil: But you had a special appreciation for Final Fantasy as I recall.
Tom: And also I would say probably my two favorite games in the series are Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: I'd say that my least favorite are and
Phil: I didn't really, I liked that returned to a fantasy setting, but it didn't really do anything for me.
Phil: I tried to play Final Fantasy so many times, and I think I really would have liked it had I been playing it at the time.
Phil: Because most of my play, I bought it at the time, but most of my play experience with was on the Vita.
Phil: But, you know, what a tremendous franchise.
Phil: And I still appreciate what they're doing.
Phil: I haven't played the most recent one.
Phil: I played the Road Bro game, and I actually really enjoyed it.
Phil: And apparently now it's, like A Dragon is more turn-based apparently than Final Fantasy.
Phil: And I have enjoyed the Final Fantasy remake.
Phil: That's been a really enjoyable game as well.
Phil: So, yeah, but would you agree?
Phil: What a fantastic franchise.
Tom: Without a doubt.
Tom: I think for me, the worst game in the series by far that I've played anyway is Final Fantasy
Tom: And if I wasn't coming to it from the perspective of Final Fantasy, I would probably say it was all right.
Phil: Yeah, I certainly fell off with and and that's kind of where it all fell apart for me.
Phil: But yeah, it's still going.
Tom: Any interest in playing Final Fantasy or ?
Phil: All interests, but no time.
Phil: And like, because I absolutely like the Final Final Fantasy remakes, but I just haven't got enough time to play them and still be playing all the things that I want to do.
Phil: So yeah, it is unfortunate.
Phil: Hopefully, they'll be remaking these games for years to come.
Phil: So that when I do have the time, they've got all the modern accoutrements.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: I'll pick a quickie, because I'm not sure that either of us have much experience with this one.
Phil: Assassin's Creed.
Tom: Assassin's Creed.
Phil: Assassin's Creed.
Tom: I'm not sure I've ever played a single Assassin's Creed game.
Tom: I don't think I have.
Phil: When do you think it broke open for the world?
Tom: I would say probably the original.
Tom: Yeah.
Phil: I'd say the second one.
Phil: The original was innovative, but not enjoyable.
Phil: And by the time they got around to the second one, it really took off.
Phil: Sort of like Watch Dogs in that respect, but then there's a franchise you'll never hear about from Ubisoft again.
Tom: I think two is the one that people remember, but I think the original had the same level of cultural impact as the sequel, which is why I would go for the original, even if it's not as well liked today.
Phil: That's fair.
Phil: That's fair.
Phil: We'll go with another easy one for the two of us, Max Payne.
Tom: Max Payne.
Tom: I mean, there's only one answer to that, surely.
Phil: For yourself or for the world?
Tom: For both, the original, without any question.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: I think that for the world, absolutely, right from the start, this game was on fire in a good way.
Phil: This game was fire.
Phil: It captivated everyone, and it seemed to be doing things that other games were not able to do.
Phil: The bullet time was obviously brilliant.
Phil: The grittiness of it.
Phil: It was so s, am I right?
Phil: That it is very s.
Tom: Absolutely.
Phil: What do you have to say about Max Payne ?
Tom: I think Max Payne mechanically is one of the best third-person shooters ever.
Tom: In terms of level design, it's unfortunately not so interesting.
Tom: And in terms of the use of the character and narrative as well, it's a massive step down from the previous Max Payne.
Tom: There's no comparison between the two at all.
Phil: If you'd like to listen to us, we talked about this in episode
Phil: I thought it was a pretty good episode.
Phil: And certainly a memorable one as well.
Phil: I think we came up with some alternate story lines for involving a rental car, but I can't remember what it was.
Phil: But you gave this score of out of at the time.
Tom: For Max Payne yes.
Phil: Yeah, because we talked about Max Payne in episode then Max Payne in the next episode, and then finally Max Payne in episode
Phil: Yeah, I think, yeah, again, for the world, I think it's the first one.
Phil: And I think Max Payne would be widely considered to be probably the lull in the series.
Phil: And it's going to, unfortunately, probably be the final entry in the series, because it's owned by Take Two now.
Phil: So we're not likely to see many more Max Payne games in the immediate future.
Phil: For me, personally, I played all three of them.
Phil: And of the three, I found three the most delicious.
Phil: And it could have been because I was playing Max Payne and not contemporaneously.
Phil: I went back to play them as a part of the, you know, for this show.
Phil: But I absolutely loved Max Payne
Phil: It was right and wrong in equal measure.
Phil: So, yeah.
Phil: So, finally, we'll go with Tekken.
Tom: Tekken, for me, without a doubt, Tekken
Phil: Tekken now what was that on?
Tom: That was on the PlayStation.
Phil: Oh, yeah.
Phil: Yep.
Phil: That was a good one.
Tom: I think that's the game where Tekken essentially became what it is today.
Tom: The first two Tekken's, I think, the movement feels a lot more limited than Tekken
Tom: Since Tekken there have certainly been minor changes over the years, but I think every Tekken game since Tekken feels to some degree like Tekken
Phil: I think they've just recently released a new Tekken.
Tom: Tekken I believe.
Phil: Yeah.
Tom: And I think for the world, I would also say it's probably Tekken
Tom: I think that's when Tekken broke out for the most part.
Tom: It was certainly a big thing before then, but I think that, not unlike Final Fantasy VII in the Final Fantasy series, is where it became a killer app for the PlayStation and could be seen all over the place.
Phil: I think Tekken was pretty widespread, but yeah, Tekken broke it open.
Phil: It was probably the pinnacle of that franchise.
Phil: I personally have no experience with it.
Phil: I've got a few of the Tekken games.
Phil: Tekken Tag, is Tekken Tag any good?
Tom: My favorite two Tekken's are Tekken and the original Tekken Tag tournament.
Phil: Tekken Tag tournament, yeah, I've got those ones.
Phil: I think Tekken also.
Phil: But yeah, never did anything for me personally, which doesn't say much anyway.
Phil: Okay, well, we'll return to how it all started segment.
Phil: We've still got Call of Duty, Doom, Super Mario Brothers, Zelda, Fallout, and Elder Scrolls to talk about.
Phil: But that's all we're going to be talking about this episode.
Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.
Phil: We've been doing this since
Phil: You can visit our website, gameunder.net.
Phil: We've got lots of resources there.
Phil: Our old stories and podcasts going back episodes now.
Phil: If you'd like to submit a question or make a comment, just go to their front page, and you can submit right there without having to register.
Phil: It's completely anonymous.
Phil: So just go ahead and do it.
Phil: We'd love to hear from you.
Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.
Tom: I'm Tom Towers.
Phil: And thank you again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.