Game Under Podcast 173

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0:00:07 Intro

0:00:18 Switch 2 Hands On Impressions

0:06:34 Sad State of Kids Gaming

0:11:33 Back to Switch 2

0:23:53 Mario Kart World and in General

0:35:31 Super Smash Sakurai

0:38:49 Back to Switch 2

0:51:41 Sophomore Slump?

0:58:52 Princess Peach Fired

1:04:04 Summer Games Fest

1:16:43 Leslie Benzies Interview

1:23:02 Peter Molyneux ,Nolan Bushnell

1:31:35 Feature - Best Console of the Generation

1:32:41 Microsoft Handheld Talk

1:38:41 Back to the Feature

This week we have hands-on impressions of the Switch 2 then talk about hte latest video game news that came out of Summer Games Fest, Princess Peach’s Firing and Leslie Benzies perpetual motion machine. Finally we talk about Microsoft’s handheld console strategy and a feature that discusses the best console of the PS4/XBOne/ Wii U era.

Transcript:

Phil: Hello and welcome to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm your host, Phil Fogg.

Phil: I'll be joined with our regular host, Tom Towers, after the introductory news segment.

Phil: But of course, there's no bigger news than the launch of Nintendo's follow-up to the best-selling console of all time, the Switch with the Switch

Phil: It came out last week, I think on a Wednesday or Thursday.

Phil: We're joined by D-Vader.

Phil: D-Vader, last time you're on here, we were talking about Bellatro.

DVader: Yes.

DVader: It's been a while.

Phil: You were right, by the way.

Phil: It's a fantastic game.

DVader: Yes.

DVader: Yes, it was.

Phil: Didn't get its claws into me as much as Slay the Spire, but it did teach me a lot about poker.

Phil: I do stand by that if you don't know the hands of poker, it is a difficult game.

Phil: So I actually have a little business card size printout every time I'm playing that reminds me what the different hands are.

Phil: Did you stick with it?

DVader: Oh, yes.

DVader: I played it a lot.

DVader: I haven't played it as much as some of the obsessed ones that could get to crazy multipliers where they're breaking the game practically.

DVader: I haven't gotten that far, but I've done most of the challenges.

DVader: There's still more to do.

DVader: It's a huge game if you really want to get everything.

DVader: I'm sorry.

DVader: But I just keep playing it every once in a while.

DVader: I'm not as into it as I was.

DVader: I was playing that thing weekly.

DVader: That has stopped.

DVader: But every once in a while, I just see it, especially now that I got the Switch because for a while there, I hardly touched my Switch.

DVader: Now I see that icon and I have it on the Switch.

DVader: I see the Bellator icon and I'm like, just one game or just another game.

Phil: Tom had really good analysis of it after he had played it, and he basically, well, together we came up with the idea that the reason why it's so addictive is the same reason why poker machines are addictive.

Phil: It's that dopamine rush of the noises that are in the game, and just one more go, just one more go sort of thing.

DVader: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah, but you mentioned the Switch so you got one at launch, just how did you get it?

Phil: Did you go to Best Buy?

Phil: Did you wait for it to get delivered to you?

DVader: Yeah, I got it at Best Buy, so I did the whole online pre-orders, so I had it set.

DVader: I didn't have to worry about it, but I did go at midnight to pick it up, and wow, there were a lot of people, easily about people waiting in line.

DVader: Half of them had it pre-ordered, and then the other half were just hoping to pick one up, and it seems like that's why I had enough for everybody.

DVader: So there is no stock shortage as far as I could tell.

DVader: This thing is everywhere, and they have a lot, and I know it's going to probably break the record easily of whatever was the fastest-selling console in the first month for sure, because Nintendo clearly had enough for mostly everybody.

Phil: Yeah, I think availability is the key there in terms of fastest-selling.

Phil: I know here in Australia, I can go online and buy one anytime right now and without any issue, and of course, you could speculate that Nintendo was getting as many of them in before the tariffs came into play, and that might be why North America is so flush with them.

Phil: But yeah, so it's been a, I think in terms of Nintendo launches, I can't remember what happened with the Wii U, but obviously the Wii was completely out of stock for a long time.

Phil: And I know that here in Australia, at least, the Switch was out of stock for a very long time as well after launch.

Phil: You had no chance of getting one unless you had a pre-order.

DVader: So yeah, that was true.

DVader: We'll see how this turns out because there's always the initial rush of Nintendo fans picking it up.

DVader: This seemed to be a little bit more than just Nintendo fans, so I think it's going to do better than say a Wii U.

DVader: But the price point is big, clearly didn't have an effect on the hardcore.

DVader: Yeah, self-included, I still paid whatever I'm going to pay because this is going to be my Nintendo console for the next whatever years.

DVader: So I played the Nintendo tax.

DVader: I have to play their games.

Phil: It's like in the US?

DVader: Yeah, with Mario Kart.

Phil: With Mario Kart and then Pro Controllers, another bucks.

DVader: Yeah, I just stuck with the one I had.

Phil: Yeah, and you can get a PlayStation for I believe.

Phil: Or has it gone down?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, it's up there in terms of price.

Phil: I was thinking about this this morning.

Phil: I see that it sold well, but I just still don't know about the reluctance of parents to buy this as a children's toy, you know?

DVader: Right.

DVader: That's my biggest thing.

DVader: I think they went a little too far.

DVader: Actually, I think it might be

DVader: I'm sorry.

DVader: It might not be

DVader: It might be

DVader: But that price is still out of the range where the casual parent who has a kid and they just want a device to give their kid might, it's just too far out.

DVader: was like maybe the sweet spot where they go, okay, yeah, for a few, for many years, they're going to enjoy this.

DVader: But you go, there's like a barrier.

DVader: Once you reach it, I think they crossed it.

DVader: And it's going to be interesting to see.

DVader: Our family is going to see enough to upgrade because the Switch is still pretty viable.

DVader: There's still lots of games.

DVader: Kids still play Mario Kart rather than, you know, does this new Mario Kart need to be bought so that they're excited or whatever?

DVader: I don't know.

DVader: Kids find anything on their iPad fun.

DVader: Like they'll play Minecraft for the next years.

DVader: Like they don't seem to be the ones like I growing up where I needed the next game.

DVader: I don't see that anymore.

DVader: And like, are you just seem to like whatever they like.

DVader: And it's like an ongoing process.

DVader: And I think a lot of parents are just going to go, it looks about the same.

DVader: I don't think I can pay that.

DVader: And yeah, so we're going to see how this goes in time.

Phil: The counter to that is that every kid you see has an iPad, right?

DVader: Yes.

Phil: So now, but usually I would have to think that most kids with iPads are hand me downs.

Tom: Right.

Phil: Yeah, it is going to be really interesting to see if the kids market picks this up.

Phil: I think, well, you've come up with one question and that is, is it worth the upgrade?

Phil: And also, like, I don't think there's anything more depressing than watching a kid play games on a tablet, you know, because they're usually just garbage games.

DVader: It is so bad.

DVader: Yeah, I'm going through this with my nephew who I gave him a Switch, he has a Switch, but a lot of times he's just on his iPad playing little weird games like yesterday was a fishing game where it's just this little fishing rod and you just turn the iPad side to side and you try to get as deep as you can, and then you click on the fish or something, you just throw it, it's nothing, it's nonsense.

DVader: And it just goes on and on and you just get longer rods, you just make more money.

DVader: It's a simple little phone game, it's nothing.

DVader: And I'm like, don't you want a story?

DVader: Don't you want to start at the beginning of an adventure and grow through?

DVader: And he does because he's played Zelda and he's beaten like the Echoes, the newer one.

DVader: He does pretty well on Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom.

DVader: He played Mario Odyssey.

DVader: He likes Astrobot, like he's played real games, but he also likes these whatever time wasters, so what I see as time wasters.

DVader: And I don't know if he gets the difference.

DVader: I don't know.

Phil: My nephew is playing these stupid time-wasting games.

Phil: Basically, I wouldn't care if they were quality games, but they're basically like PlayStation era shovelware.

DVader: Yes.

Phil: And I showed him a Steam Deck and was like, hey, here's a Steam Deck.

Phil: What do you think?

Phil: You can play this, you can play that.

Phil: And he's like, meh, nah.

Phil: There's no interest.

Phil: And I think at best these days, if you've got a kid, they either go from Minecraft to Roblox to Fortnite, right?

DVader: Yeah. Right.

Phil: And Roblox is a good social environment.

Phil: It's just basically a way to get together and chat with your friends.

Phil: There's nothing wrong with that.

Phil: Minecraft, I think, has many positive elements to it in terms of, there's a lot of education in there about different kinds of animals and minerals and it's also creative.

Phil: It's like a virtual Lego set basically on steroids.

Phil: And Fortnite is Fortnite.

Phil: It's getting them ready for more serious games, I guess, down the track.

Phil: But you're right.

Phil: All these games have been out for close Minecraft in excess of years.

Phil: And the kids are just perfectly satisfied with it.

Phil: And like I said earlier, there's nothing more frustrating than watching a kid play tablet games when they've got something like the Switch available or the Steam Deck available to them.

DVader: Absolutely.

DVader: Oh, the other aspect that I find really weird, the kids watching other kids play.

Phil: Yeah.

DVader: The weirdest thing where they would spend hours just watching another kid play Minecraft.

Phil: Right.

DVader: And I'm like, you have Minecraft.

DVader: Why aren't you playing Minecraft?

DVader: And they're like, no, I want to watch this.

DVader: Yeah, it drives me nuts.

Phil: Now look, if when we were kids, there was a TV channel that had people playing Super Mario Brothers, we would have watched it for sure.

DVader: That's true.

DVader: That is also true.

DVader: You're right.

DVader: You got me.

Phil: And it is like if I'd probably watch, if I was a kid again, I'd probably watch a YouTube channel dedicated to people doing Lego builds.

Phil: Because you'd be like, oh, wow, okay, I didn't know you could do that or check out all the blocks they've got and stuff like that.

Phil: So I do get it a little bit, but not to the extent that they do watch it.

Phil: I think Minecraft, I'd love to see the numbers.

Phil: First of all, as to what amount of content that is watched on YouTube is video game related.

Phil: I'd like to see some truth around that.

DVader: From kids, if you could segment kids, it's got to be crazy numbers.

Phil: Crazy.

Phil: Then Minecraft just by itself, Microsoft's got to be like, dude, Google, we're giving you percent of your traffic probably.

Phil: Minecraft channel.

Phil: Yeah.

DVader: Some of these are not just a guy playing, they are like TV shows.

DVader: They got characters, they have little animations, they have voice acting.

DVader: It's like, that's their TV show.

DVader: I'm like, man, there's better TV shows with actual writing and because a lot of it's nonsense.

DVader: I watched it with them.

DVader: I'm like, this is bad.

DVader: But whatever.

Phil: But having said that, have you watched any of the LARPing in Grand Theft Auto ?

Phil: Like people live, LA LARPing, what's that stand for?

Phil: Live Action RPG?

DVader: Right.

Phil: Have you watched any of that?

DVader: No.

Phil: Oh, it's like watching cops because basically, most of the LARPing is cops pulling over people, and then as a part of this whole thing, if the cops pull you over, you have to pretend like you're really being pulled over and all that.

Phil: Yeah, it's interesting to watch.

Phil: It's captivating.

Phil: It's not the sort of thing I go back and watch hours and hours of, but there's plenty of it on YouTube.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So back to Switch

Phil: First impressions, how does it feel compared to the original Switch?

DVader: Well, the first impression is the size of the screen.

DVader: It is massive.

DVader: I guess there are pictures where you put them together.

DVader: It just doesn't do it justice until you see it and hold it in your hand.

DVader: This thing is big.

Phil: It looks huge.

DVader: It is.

DVader: Yes.

DVader: I could not believe it.

DVader: My sister, again, she's the mother of my nephews.

DVader: She looked at it and goes, oh man, that switch is huge compared to what the kids are using.

DVader: It is a big unit.

Phil: Or as Deuce Bigelow would say, that's a huge switch.

DVader: Yes, exactly.

DVader: Yet, it feels too much better.

DVader: The quality of just the texture is better.

DVader: The quality of the buttons of the controllers with the magnet attaching sides, it feels like a high-end product, which is something I can't say Nintendo has really done in a long, long time, to the point where when I held it, I'm like, I can't imagine giving this to a child.

DVader: It feels like a high-end, high-tech device that I would want to protect from a child rather than here.

DVader: Take this thing.

DVader: It does look the cost, so I got to give it that.

DVader: You pay $and you look at it and you go, okay, yeah, this thing feels like it's a $plus device.

DVader: It is nice, really nice.

Phil: You know what that reminds me of?

Phil: I was just wondering, is this Nintendo's PlayStation ?

Phil: You remember the first PlayStation that came out that had the piano gloss on it?

Phil: Even the Ethernet cables that came with it, or the best Ethernet cables you'd have ever seen in your life.

Phil: It felt like you were buying a grand piano.

Phil: It was just a beautiful thing.

Phil: I'm wondering if perhaps with some hubris, and you know what happened, of course, it was overpriced and it took all of that generation for it to get back up above

Phil: It finally did globally, but I don't think in the States, the PSever really overcame the

Phil: So it feels good.

Phil: So because when you pick up the Switch, it does feel like a kid's toy, right?

Phil: It creaks, it's flexible.

DVader: Right, it creaks, yes.

DVader: It feels like the plastic key you hear like, yeah.

DVader: No, this thing feels like a nice, solid, just damn, it's good.

Phil: I think it's got a -inch display, but it's still the same width as the original Switch.

DVader: Is it?

DVader: Yeah, yes, yeah.

Phil: The same thickness.

DVader: Yeah, exactly.

DVader: Yes.

DVader: It's very thin, actually.

DVader: Yeah, I guess it would be the same.

DVader: It's just more impressive that it's the same thing, how long it is.

DVader: But yeah, it is very skinny in that regard.

Phil: The Joy-Cons themselves have a bit more meat to them.

Phil: They have a bit more shape to them this time, right?

DVader: Definitely.

DVader: The triggers are meatier.

DVader: They fit the fingers better, especially the two trigger ones in the back.

DVader: The sticks, I don't know.

DVader: The sticks feel about the same.

DVader: I've used my sticks so long in the first one.

DVader: Maybe they felt that good at the beginning.

DVader: So I don't know how it's going to last long term, but they feel good.

DVader: Buttons are pretty much the same.

DVader: But yeah, everything about the device just screens like, wow, this is a really high-end device.

DVader: When you turn on the screen, I think it's beautiful.

DVader: I never had an OLED.

DVader: So there are people who had the OLED switch who say the colors of the OLED are still better than the colors of the Switch

DVader: I don't have that comparison, so I'm not doing that.

DVader: I'm doing the comparison from Switch regular, to and it is big time.

DVader: It is a huge upgrade.

DVader: You can see it in the few games that they did upgrade for free.

DVader: Like Mario Odyssey, I put that in, beautiful frames per second, running on a perfect whatever, I think it's p resolution on that screen.

DVader: It looks gorgeous.

Phil: Did Best Buy staple your receipt to the front of the box?

DVader: Thankfully not.

DVader: That is a crazy story, and man, someone's getting fired.

Phil: Yeah, but now people are also saying, yeah, but Nintendo, why do you have the screen at the front of the box so unprotected?

Phil: I mean, is it really that bad when you open it up?

Phil: It's like, right?

DVader: Okay.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: One little compartment is the Switch screen with a little white, it's not bubble wrap, but it's the little white thing around it.

DVader: That's it.

DVader: It's just sitting there on the top.

DVader: Then under the stuff is where the dock and all that stuff is.

DVader: So they have the screen right on the top of the screen.

Phil: So what's your favorite feature so far?

Phil: Is there anything that really stands out like, this is different from the Switch and this is amazing?

DVader: Sadly, outside of, hey, this is a new cool looking device, it has a nice screen and better resolution.

DVader: The menu is exactly the same.

DVader: You can't tell it's a new console.

DVader: There is the chat button, which I guess that's the new thing, but since I'm used to chatting on every other device, it's one of those, you should have done this a long time ago.

DVader: You still have to do the friend code thing to add friends.

DVader: I haven't really started a chat on it.

DVader: But I guess now you can finally send a message to another player, which, wow, welcome to or whatever.

DVader: I don't know.

DVader: I don't have the camera where they could do the live webcaming or whatnot, I don't care to do.

DVader: But so yeah, they have those features.

DVader: But yeah, inside like the actual UI and all that, identical.

DVader: Like I can, there is no difference at all.

DVader: Everything just runs faster.

DVader: So it is like, I don't know if it's SSD, but it's a super fast speed memory.

DVader: Like everything's loading way faster, especially the older games.

DVader: And everything just looks nicer.

Phil: It's obviously fixed memory, so it's running a lot faster than if you were running it off a cartridge.

Phil: And then, of course, you've got to use Express SD cards.

Phil: Did you pick up an Express SD card?

DVader: I have not.

DVader: So far, I transferred everything from my Switch over to the Switch and thankfully, it has a lot more space just built in.

DVader: So I'm not close to matching it, maybe in time because I know now games are going to be way bigger than the Switch games were.

DVader: So in time, I might have to, but for now I'm just going with the system memory.

Phil: So what was that like?

Phil: What was it like transferring from the Switch to the Switch ?

Phil: And also, does that mean that your stuff is no longer on the Switch ?

Phil: So if I've got a game on the Switch how do I get it onto the Switch and do I still have access to it on my Switch?

DVader: So here, Nintendo being a little weird.

DVader: So the first thing that happens when you start your Switch it will ask you, hey, do you want to transfer a Switch to Switch ?

DVader: And it will tell you, this is your only chance to do this.

DVader: If you pass that screen and you don't do it, you can never go back to that screen and say transfer your Switch over.

DVader: You would have to factory reset the entire damn thing to get back there.

DVader: So you have like one shot.

DVader: Now, yes, thankfully, everything stays on the Switch

DVader: So, but you need to have your Switch with you.

DVader: And here's the kicker, they both need to be plugged in.

Phil: Wait, wait, wait.

Phil: Sorry, I caught you off-guard.

Phil: What do you mean you got to have your Switch with you?

DVader: Yeah, they have to be next to each other for this to work.

Phil: Oh, for the transfer to work?

DVader: Yeah, the transfer to work.

Phil: Oh, I thought you meant like in the future, if you're playing a game that you transfer from your Switch to Switch you've got to have the Switch in your backpack.

DVader: Yeah, well, it wouldn't surprise you with Nintendo, but no, no.

DVader: So you just need this for the transfer, but you need them to be powered up, connected to a cable.

DVader: And it has to, I don't know why, but I guess it has to be the one from the Switch.

DVader: So I have my power, all my cables are like in a unit in the room.

DVader: Like it's hard to get to that stuff.

DVader: So I took my Switch out and I plugged it in with any generic USB power thing that I use.

DVader: Power switch.

DVader: And it told me, no, you can't do that.

DVader: What?

DVader: So I was like, nah, this doesn't accept it.

DVader: So it wouldn't let me do the transfer until I plugged it into the actual plug.

DVader: So I had to go to my unit and like stand next to it.

DVader: So I could plug it into that unit there, bring my Switch over to it, find another wall jack for that power plug.

DVader: It was a mess.

DVader: Just so I could have them close together.

DVader: And then they did the transfer.

DVader: It takes, I don't know, took minutes, minutes or so.

Phil: You think that's a piracy thing?

Phil: Like they're worried that you're hooking up your thing to, hooking up your switch to a PC via USB and then having the PC emulate like a Switch sort of thing?

Phil: It has to be.

DVader: I have no idea why you would need that specific power cable but whatever, Nintendo being Nintendo.

DVader: Anyway, once that finally went through and I got everything transferred, yeah, everything stays on the Switch so you don't have to get rid of anything, it's all still there and then it's basically, you turn on your Switch and the same menu you had on Switch appears.

DVader: Now, it still needs to download like all the downloadable games that it did, but at least all your library is there and all set ready to go, and it's downloading in the background constantly, all this stuff.

DVader: So all your saves are there, all your users, everything that you had that was already done, your settings and everything pretty much all just transfers over, boom, boom, you're set to go.

Phil: So do you have any dead pixels?

DVader: I have not seen any.

Phil: Okay, because I was watching YouTube last night with a dude doing impressions and he had like a monstrous amount of dead pixels.

Phil: He didn't even talk about it.

Phil: So I just don't know if his HD camera was picking it up, that the human eye couldn't, you know what I mean?

Tom: You're right.

DVader: I mean, to be fair, I haven't played on portable that much.

DVader: I've been mostly docked.

DVader: But yeah, tomorrow when I start going to work, I haven't been to work since I got the Switch but I'm going to be using this thing at work.

DVader: So I have some time off at work.

DVader: But yeah, so I'll be using a more portable this week and I'll check.

DVader: Yeah, I'll see.

DVader: But I didn't notice anything.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Battery life.

Phil: So you haven't really, you wouldn't-

DVader: I haven't really.

DVader: No, I can't give you a good estimate on battery life, honestly.

DVader: I've never used it on portable long enough to drain the entire battery.

DVader: So I played, the longest session was about two hours and I still think I still have percent.

DVader: So I can't give you an exact number, but that's about what I know.

Phil: And the game line line up, what's the first thing you played?

Phil: I assume it was Mario Kart.

DVader: Yeah, Mario Kart World, which is the only game I bought and about the only thing I care.

DVader: Well, I mean, Deltarune, but that's everywhere.

DVader: But I got it just so I could have it portable.

DVader: Well, yeah, I got a Super Mario Kart World and it is really fun.

DVader: And I think I'm not the biggest Mario Kart fan.

DVader: I've never really, I don't usually buy them.

DVader: I kind of just play them at friends' houses and it never was my thing because it doesn't never have like a good single player campaign.

DVader: But this one with the open world and all that, I decided to give it a shot and I'm enjoying it a lot.

DVader: I think they did a very good job.

DVader: There's a lot of frustrating things about it, we could go into that as well.

DVader: But like the courses, the world, the way it's designed and how you could drive from one track to the other.

DVader: And there's little missions and things all over the world to do.

DVader: It's really fun.

DVader: And the new mode, the knockout mode, which is basically an elimination mode.

DVader: So you start off at one end of the world, and then you drive from one track to another track to another track, and at each checkpoint, the last four get eliminated and you just got to keep being in the front of the line.

DVader: That mode is fantastic and way more fun to Grand Prix to me.

DVader: And yeah, I think it adds a lot to the game.

DVader: It's a lot of fun.

DVader: players is also a blast because it's so chaotic.

DVader: It is just madness on the screen when everybody is shooting shells and explosions and there's just, it's just beautiful chaos.

DVader: And that's part of why Mario Kart is so much fun.

Phil: So how is the online experience?

Phil: Is there any changes in multiplayer, like how it actually functions, how you get on or is Nintendo still being Nintendo?

DVader: I mean, it works for me just fine.

DVader: Like I didn't play Mario Kart much, but I mean, you just go to the lobby, I mean, just press online, pick what you want to do, Grand Prix or the elimination mode or battle.

DVader: Pick it and then it takes you to the, now it takes you to the open world, that's your like lobby.

DVader: So you can just drive around while you wait for people to load up.

DVader: And then that's it, you're in a game.

DVader: And I've not had no lag, it's run perfectly.

DVader: And this is, I mean, again, people.

DVader: I don't think all were like online.

DVader: Sometimes I think like people get on and then the CPU, like different AI just fills in the rest of them.

DVader: But still it runs beautiful.

DVader: I've never had an issue with online.

DVader: The problem comes in that Nintendo doesn't have any bells and whistles to the online.

DVader: There's nothing, there's no tracking, there's no rankings, there's no win loss, there's nothing, there's no incentive.

DVader: It's just go on, play a race.

DVader: Yeah, you win, you don't.

DVader: Okay, do it again if you want to. If not, there's nothing, there's nothing, nothing unlocks, nothing, nothing. What the hell, Nintendo, man. It's weird.

Phil: With the billions and billions of dollars of revenue that they generate, you think at some point they would have just gone, hey, we don't know what we're doing.

Phil: Can we just go hire some people from Activision or Microsoft or Sony or someone?

Phil: Just someone who knows what they're doing to help us with this?

DVader: I don't even like season passes and I'm wishing for a season.

DVader: I'm wishing for anything to acknowledge that there's an online mode like Nintendo.

DVader: Put effort into this mode that's not just here, it works.

DVader: Yeah, it works.

DVader: It's fun.

DVader: But can I have something else to it?

DVader: Can there be a goal?

DVader: Can there be a meta game to it?

DVader: Instead of just, it's like they expect you to just go into lobby with some friends, play it for a few races and that's it.

DVader: That's all it's there for.

DVader: It's just like meet up with friends and do it.

DVader: There's nothing else to it and it's just like such a missed opportunity because the gameplay is fantastic.

DVader: I think this is easily the most fun in Mario Kart, especially because there's the new grinding and you could grind on walls, you could jump.

DVader: You could drift.

DVader: As always in classic Mario, you do the drift and you get a little power boost.

DVader: But if you're not turning side to side and you press the drift button, you now crouch down and now you could do a jump and then you could jump up to railings or on a wall and then you're doing all these flips and stuff.

DVader: So it's like parkour platforming with karts and the levels are designed to access all this high level play.

DVader: And it makes it to me the most interesting gameplay of any Mario Kart.

Phil: Yeah, for me, for Mario Kart, I've enjoyed Mario Kart especially, well, since it first came out on the SNES, it was just, but even compared to, oh my God, what's the name of the space game with the hovercraft?

Phil: Compared to F-Zero, it was like, well, who would play Mario Kart?

Phil: It wasn't really until the DS one came out that was really fantastic.

Phil: You could play online.

Phil: I think that was probably the first time you could play Mario Kart online.

Phil: And then on Wii U, Mario Kart and then on Switch, obviously Mario Kart

Phil: That's when I got more into it.

Phil: But the thing that has always left me cold with that series is that, like, there's no, I don't feel like I'm winning because I've got skill, or it doesn't feel like I can get better at it, you know?

DVader: Yes, there's still that.

DVader: It's still so chaotic where you could be first place, and you're about halfway on the final lap, and then a shell or something hits you, and then you're last place.

DVader: In seconds, you go from first to last place, and you're like, what the hell just happened?

DVader: Because that's Mario Kart.

DVader: Yeah, that's Mario Kart.

Phil: But I'll tell you this, I thought I was really, when it came out on Switch, I thought, oh yeah, I'm actually pretty good at this Mario Kart, because I was playing through the first single-player mode.

Phil: Then the second you get online, because down in Australia, when we get online, we're in the same market as Japan.

Phil: If you get on a Nintendo product, if you go online, most of the people we're playing against are in Japan.

Phil: Then you go, oh, I am no good at this, and there must be something to learn because these people are just whooping me.

DVader: One good thing, this game does have time trials and has ghost, that you could replay, download somebody else's ghost and watch them play.

DVader: I can go, you go to the first-place guy, that's the only rankings in the entire game are time trial rankings.

DVader: At least they got something in there.

DVader: But yeah, you could download the number one world ranking for that track, and you could watch them play and you're like, what?

DVader: I'm like, how?

DVader: Is this the same game?

DVader: I don't even know how they're doing the thing on the controller where they're combining boosts with the grayling, and they're like, I don't know.

DVader: They're doing things there.

DVader: I'm just like, I'm trying to copy because you could follow along the ghost and it does not match at all.

DVader: So there is definitely a skill level that is there.

DVader: I do realize if you're in the front of the line, you avoid a lot of the chaos that's happening in the middle.

DVader: If you're always in the middle, it's a disaster because anything could happen.

DVader: There's just nonsense.

DVader: But if you're in the front, you avoid a lot of that until a blue shell gets you.

DVader: So there's always an advantage, I think.

DVader: If you could stay in the front, you're always going to be very good.

DVader: But if anything goes wrong, you do a wrong turn and you miss something, and you just end up in that middle of the pack, well, good luck because that's a crap shoot.

DVader: Because it's whatever item anybody gets and then it's just chaos from there.

Phil: Sounds like a lot of fun.

DVader: Well, yeah.

DVader: Part of the tracks, the way they are now, I don't know if this is some people I've heard that they like Mario Kart because the tracks are bigger and you do the laps.

DVader: This game doesn't have that many laps in some of the tracks.

DVader: They're made to be done once, like start at the beginning and get to the end and that's it.

Phil: So like a burnout paradise type thing.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: That's because part of the track, when you're doing a Grand Prix or even when you're doing the elimination mode, is the highway to the track, is also part of the racing experience.

DVader: Those highways could be so much fun.

DVader: Like it turns into Mad Max.

DVader: You're like a straightaway and they're all cars are there.

DVader: Then there's like tons of traffic also.

DVader: There's giant semi-trucks.

DVader: There's trucks with ramps that let you jump on the back and jump up.

DVader: There's turtles.

DVader: There's all sorts of things just happening on the road.

DVader: Bullet bills are being shot at you.

DVader: It is just chaotic and everyone's going just in a straight line and it just looks like Fury Road. It's just explosions and there's fire and there's things and everybody's going side to side and you're like a boarding thing.

DVader: It is awesome.

DVader: They captured something there where it's just so much fun to just be in the chaos.

DVader: I love it.

DVader: I think the gameplay is fantastic.

Phil: You say it's just like Fury Road because I'm in Australia.

Phil: That's actually like my morning commute.

Phil: That's how we roll down here.

DVader: Perfect.

DVader: I do want to touch on one negative though with the open world.

DVader: Whereas just like the online mode where you feel like Nintendo didn't put their best effort, again, this game just doesn't have any tracking of anything.

DVader: So here's an open world and the few activities that you have are these P switches that give you a small mission.

DVader: So you activate a P switch and it will be like eight blue coins appear and like a circular track or whatever.

DVader: It's like avoid whatever obstacles, collect the eight blue coins in seconds.

DVader: So you got to drive around this little tiny made up course, pick up the blue coins and that's your mission.

DVader: They do different things throughout the world.

DVader: Some of them are very creative.

DVader: Some of them are actually like impromptu new small races.

DVader: So you do a few laps against them like CPU.

DVader: But okay, you do that and then you earn a sticker.

DVader: Okay, sticker and what does the sticker do?

DVader: It's just whatever your name or your icon or whatever when you're online, that's your logo, is a sticker.

DVader: So you learn that.

DVader: Okay, how many P's are there in the world?

DVader: How many P switches are there?

DVader: I don't know.

DVader: There's no tracking.

DVader: It only tells you how many you found.

DVader: It doesn't tell you where they are.

DVader: It doesn't tell you out of how many.

DVader: Okay.

DVader: There's also peach coins to find, these little coins that are special.

DVader: What do you get?

DVader: A sticker.

DVader: Okay.

DVader: Again, how many are there?

Phil: You put the sticker on your car?

DVader: No.

DVader: I guess it does appear somewhere in the car, but it's not like you get to decorate your car.

DVader: No.

DVader: All this is your icon of your name, and that's your little sticker.

DVader: That is your logo, I guess, the sticker.

DVader: Then on the sticker screen, it tells you what you did to unlock the sticker.

DVader: Some of them are like, you collected coins.

DVader: Oh, that's cool, because you know what?

DVader: The game doesn't tell you how many coins you collected.

DVader: There's nothing on the screen that tells you how many coins.

DVader: They're coins all over the open world, so you're collecting coins.

DVader: Nothing tells you.

DVader: I'm getting messages that pop up, you collected coins.

DVader: Congratulations, here's the sticker.

DVader: Oh, I didn't know that that was the thing.

DVader: There's another one, oh, you drove this many miles.

DVader: Oh, I don't know how many miles I've driven because there's no stat tracking.

DVader: There's nothing.

DVader: I don't know anything.

DVader: I don't know what is there in the world to get.

DVader: I don't know what the goals are.

DVader: I don't know what, I mean, the only unlockable are clearly stickers.

DVader: That is it.

DVader: So, I mean, there's nothing.

DVader: Like, why are there not challenges?

DVader: Why are they not like bosses?

DVader: Why are the characters not being unlocked or like costumes being unlocked by specific character challenges or things that you could do?

DVader: Like, it is just the most basic thing.

DVader: And it's sad because again, that the missions are, some of them are very clever.

DVader: And the way the world is designed, how like, you know how in like, if you're in some tracks, you like fall off the track and you just fall into like the void and the little cloud guy picks you up, right?

DVader: No, now you fall down and you land into like the water or into like the ocean and you drive around the ocean under this thing.

DVader: Like the entire world is interconnected.

DVader: Like it never ends.

DVader: It's really well done.

DVader: But there's, there's just not enough there.

DVader: There's, there could be such a great game and they didn't do anything with it.

DVader: And it's frustrating.

Phil: I hate to say this, but it's like, it is like Nintendo succeeds in Spider themselves sometimes.

DVader: Yes, absolutely.

Phil: It doesn't take a lot of money.

Phil: They've got all the money in the world to do this.

Phil: It would be fun.

Phil: Look, I'm not a fan of Fortnite.

Phil: I'm not a detractor of Fortnite.

Phil: I don't care.

Phil: I played it like twice.

Phil: It wasn't for me.

Phil: I'll try it again.

Phil: But you think it's frustrating for you to play it.

Phil: Imagine what the people at Fortnite or the people that do Call of Duty when they're playing this game, their minds must be just exploding with ideas.

DVader: They're constantly thinking how to keep players engaged.

DVader: They're thinking, keep adding stuff.

DVader: Nintendo is just like, here, people will pay $for this because it's Mario.

DVader: Done.

DVader: Wipe their hands and done.

DVader: I mean, they're going to do DLC, obviously.

Phil: It's an oversimplification, but I think it perhaps goes back to their toy company ethos, where here's a soccer ball.

Phil: Well, you don't need to know how many times you kicked it, or it doesn't need to change color, or it's just a toy.

Phil: You just pick it up, you play off it.

Phil: When you're sick of it, you put it down.

Phil: When you want to play off it again, you pick it up again.

DVader: But it's frustrating when they have another game in their own library like Smash Brothers, where everything is so well kept track of.

DVader: Like you have a trophy case in Smash Brothers where hundreds of challenges, and it tells you exactly what you need to do, what mode, beat this with this character and whatever.

DVader: Do this, do this.

DVader: You get little icons and you unlock music, and you unlock characters, and you unlock backgrounds, and you unlock all sorts of fun little things, and it keeps track of every single thing.

DVader: I know how much time I played in every single character.

DVader: I know my win-loss record of every character.

DVader: I know everything in that game.

DVader: Mario Kart is the complete opposite of that.

DVader: It has no tracking whatsoever.

DVader: It doesn't care anything about the user experience.

DVader: It's just like, here's the game, just play it, eh, have fun.

DVader: And it's like, can't you just see your brother?

DVader: That's your brother.

DVader: Smash and Mario Kart are the two big party Nintendo games.

DVader: And I feel like they're so different.

Phil: Go talk to Sakurai.

Phil: He's right there.

Phil: He's right there.

DVader: He cares.

DVader: I feel like that's the difference between a guy who is a singular vision, like a guy who cares about his product so well, that he puts so much effort to make sure that Smash game is perfect.

DVader: And every little thing is tailored and everything's great.

DVader: To, I don't know who's in charge of Mario Kart, but it feels more like a committee.

DVader: Like, all right, we created something fun.

DVader: There you go.

DVader: Here you go.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think if you looked at, like, for me, a game that requires more skill and has more soul, has been the Sonic and All-Stars Racing franchise.

Phil: And they have a new one coming out soon and it's got, what's the name, Hakuna, whatever the name is.

Phil: I can't even think of the name.

Phil: But it's got people that, you know, they bring in other characters from other video games that are outside the Sega world.

Phil: And for years, people have said, hey, this is an obvious pickup.

Phil: Just do what you did for Smash with Mario Kart.

Phil: It doesn't just have to be in the mushroom kingdom.

Phil: Well, now, of course, they've introduced Zelda and stuff like that.

Phil: But, you know, but again, who are we to give them advice?

Phil: Like Mario Kart is like the best selling Nintendo game of all time.

DVader: Exactly.

DVader: But then they learned the wrong lessons.

DVader: You're like, you know what?

DVader: You don't have to do all that stuff.

DVader: Then you could just keep making DLC and paying for little packs and all that.

DVader: And so I don't know, they're not learning their lesson and it's just frustrating when Smash does so much.

DVader: Like I'm just like, imagine Mario Kart made by Sakurai.

DVader: Like, it would be amazing.

DVader: Like what he could do with this.

DVader: He probably plays the game and goes, man, I could do so much with this.

Phil: Well, even Smash though, Nintendo, like they don't let people play it at EVO.

Phil: They don't want live events.

Phil: They don't want people playing it live.

Phil: It's like, guys.

DVader: There are such a backwards company so many times.

DVader: It's so frustrating.

DVader: People want to love it.

Phil: People do love it more than Street Fighter.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Like they could really, Super Smash could be their Fortnite.

DVader: Yes.

Phil: It really could be if they open it up to other platforms, which I'm not suggesting that they should at all.

Phil: But I think that Smash really does get it.

Phil: I think it would be something that would have universal appeal if it wasn't trapped on a Nintendo system.

Phil: I've got to go back to the Joy-Con improvements.

Phil: The magnets, there's some sort of electromagnet.

Phil: Does it feel creaky like the old?

DVader: No, not at all.

DVader: They are solidly in there.

DVader: They're not flimsy where you could feel them jiggle and stuff like that.

DVader: When they snap, they snap.

DVader: They are in, they are locked in.

DVader: It feels good to hold and you can't accidentally pull them out.

DVader: You have to really push that button in and click it and then the magnet releases and then you can pull it off.

DVader: Then when you just get it close to it and then it'll just suck it right in and just click.

DVader: It feels real good.

Phil: Somehow that has no effect on the storage.

Phil: You know what they used to say?

Phil: Keep magnets away from your storage.

DVader: I don't know.

DVader: Yeah, absolutely.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: I don't know the technology, but it's definitely like a magnet.

DVader: It just sucks in.

Phil: You said something earlier and I missed it because I said, oh, Pro Controller is $

Phil: I think you said, well, you can use your old Pro Controller.

DVader: That I'm just using my Switch Pro.

DVader: Yeah.

Phil: Sweet.

DVader: The only downside is it does not turn on the console.

DVader: You got to physically push the power button and then you could turn on your Switch Controller and they'll pair up immediately.

DVader: But you can't press the Switch power on button and power up your Switch

DVader: I don't know if they did that on purpose just to piss people off, but yeah, it doesn't work.

Phil: Have you got it hooked up to a K display?

DVader: Yes.

DVader: I got it up to my beautiful TV that I would play all my games on.

DVader: Yeah, it looks super nice.

DVader: Mario Kart runs, I don't know, the resolution.

DVader: I'm assuming K.

DVader: It's beautiful.

DVader: Definitely the best looking Nintendo game in terms of smoothness and all that.

DVader: And then Odyssey is the other game that I've used to test, like a Switch game.

DVader: And Odyssey looks just incredible.

DVader: Like again, now running in perfect frames per second.

DVader: Oh, I did also try the Echoes of Wisdom, which was running at and struggling at times.

DVader: Now all those struggles are gone.

DVader: It was very smooth, looks nice.

DVader: I'm not doing the Breath of the Wild, Tears of the Kingdom upgrade, because I think that is just messed up, that they're charging $for those.

DVader: So screw you, Nintendo.

DVader: I'm not upgrading, but I'm sure that looks amazing when it's running at a good frame rate.

Phil: And the toaster, the thing that you put it in, right?

Phil: It's obviously fatter.

Phil: It's got a fan in it this time.

Phil: Has the fan kicked in at any point?

DVader: You know what?

DVader: I haven't really heard it much.

DVader: I'm assuming it kicks in because I could feel heat.

DVader: Like I've gone back there when I've taken it out of the dock, like after using it for a while on the TV, and I take it out of the dock, oh, it feels hot.

DVader: You could definitely feel that there was some heat going on in there.

DVader: But yeah, it's a nice little circular shape where the Switch dock was very square, very hard angles.

DVader: This is more circular and has a nice little glossy like shiny end to it.

DVader: Even the dock looks nicer.

DVader: Nothing fancy, but it looks nicer.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, I think we've, unless you've got anything else, I think we've pretty much wrapped it up.

Phil: Are there any hidden gems?

Phil: Have you discovered any cool features that aren't being talked about?

DVader: Yeah, no, nothing really.

DVader: I know there's the mouse.

DVader: You could use your Joy-Cons for a mouse.

DVader: Another thing I'm not doing for Nintendo, paying $for a cheap little, what should have been a pack-in game.

DVader: I know that game lets you try the mouse, but I haven't tried the mouse for anything really.

DVader: I'm sure it works okay, but I think controller works fine without it.

Phil: I think you can use it as a, you can use it.

Phil: It will move the cursor on the screen.

DVader: Yeah, I believe it does.

Phil: I don't know, do you have to put those bumpers on it for it to actually?

DVader: Yeah, if you want to use the mouse, you got to put the bumpers on.

Phil: Well, they may as well just shoot that feature in the head because no one's going to want to.

DVader: Yeah, exactly.

DVader: Oh, and those also snap on much nicer than the previous bumpers.

DVader: So that's another good little feature to it.

DVader: But still, it's a pain to have those, you know, carry those around.

Phil: Okay, so it's only been a few days.

Phil: Are you happy with your purchase?

Phil: Any remorse about it?

DVader: No, I mean, I know what I'm getting.

DVader: Like I know this is a down payment on the next five years of Nintendo, so all the frustration I have are going to remain.

DVader: I've always been frustrated at Nintendo hardware.

DVader: They always come close and yet so far, at least this time, the graphics are good enough where I think they're going to be able to have many third party games.

DVader: So that's good.

DVader: They don't feel like they're ancient.

DVader: It's K, finally.

DVader: Like, come on, like everything else is K.

DVader: Like now I can finally play Nintendo games in K with decent frame rates.

DVader: So that's all I really wanted.

DVader: So I think this is that, at least.

DVader: And then it's just the games.

DVader: Like, where are they?

DVader: So as soon as they come out, I'm sure I'll be happy.

DVader: But right now it's just this and that's Donkey Kong.

DVader: And I hope Donkey Kong is good.

DVader: And then Metroid Prime, which I know is going to be a Switch game, but we'll have the upgrade, which that I'll pay for.

DVader: And yeah, hopefully that runs nice and smooth and looks nice.

DVader: So again, I got this for Nintendo games.

DVader: And I'm going to do a lot of indie games probably on it.

DVader: I'll probably start putting a lot of my indie games there so I can have it nice and portable.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: So it's nice.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think the games will come.

Phil: The only concerning thing I have is that now that they've got a powerful console, does that mean longer development cycle and less games?

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: I mean, it's Zelda.

DVader: Zelda took five years to make.

DVader: What was pretty much the same world and upgrade was five years.

DVader: I don't know what they're going to do when the graphics engine is going to go to the next level if they go to the next level.

DVader: Knowing Nintendo, they're going to keep the graphics very basic and just work on frame rate.

DVader: But who knows?

DVader: I mean, you never know with them.

Phil: Final piece of speculation, I guess.

Phil: The developers of Mario Kart basically said that they were making this game for Switch

Phil: And then halfway through development, it got switched over to Switch

Phil: So the other component was that the Switch Pro rumors was very, very strong.

Phil: And there was really hard evidence that the Switch was going to get a Pro version.

Phil: I think that the Switch is basically probably this started with being the Switch Pro.

Phil: And then all of the supply chain issues came up and everything else.

Phil: And then this has just become the Switch

DVader: That could be.

DVader: That makes perfect sense.

DVader: Because out of any, I think this is probably the most direct sequel to a console Nintendo has ever had where it's the exact same thing.

DVader: It is just an upgrade.

DVader: Maybe DS to DS, even that had the D thing to it.

DVader: But there's nothing that really differentiates this from Switch other than it's bigger and shinier and better graphics.

DVader: And eventually, yeah, you're not going to be able to buy the games for Switch

DVader: But till then, they are exactly the same.

DVader: Like they're the same thing.

DVader: Like, I don't know.

DVader: There's nothing really that stands that's different, you know?

Phil: Well, if it's $USD without the Mario Kart, I think that's a fair value.

Phil: I don't think that's a lot of money.

Phil: However, I didn't buy one on day one, because it's like $or something down here.

Phil: And the reason why I didn't buy one isn't because of the hardware.

Phil: It looks solid.

Phil: It looks great.

Phil: And if I didn't have a Steam Deck, I'd probably like, okay, yeah, this is great, because then I'll be able to play handheld, I'll be able to play Indie titles.

Phil: Obviously, more third-party games are going to come to it.

Phil: My problem with it is the price point of the games on Nintendo.

Phil: And that games routinely go on sale on Steam for a fraction of the price of what the games will go for on Nintendo Switch.

Phil: And I think that's the biggest thing that stops me.

Phil: It's like, do I want to play Mario Kart World?

Phil: Yeah, I do.

Phil: But do I want to pay $for it?

Phil: No.

DVader: No.

DVader: That's absurd.

DVader: The only reason I got Mario Kart was because it was bundled and it was $different.

DVader: I got it for bucks, which is a normal price that I would pay for Mario Kart, not $

DVader: I'm not paying no $for Mario Kart.

Phil: And I think Donkey Kong Bonanza is going to be $I think.

DVader: That one I'm just buying because I need another game.

Phil: No, it's going to look great.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And then the Odyssey team apparently made it.

Phil: But see, like for me down here, it's retailing for

DVader: We're back to the old days, man.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You can say, oh, well, that's pesos, you guys down there in Australia.

Phil: It's not like American dollars, but within our economy.

Phil: And as you rightly pointed out years ago, well, how much is a tank of petrol cost?

Phil: Right now, it costs about between and bucks to fill up a car.

Phil: So if that gives you a clue as to how the pricing of a game.

Phil: So for bucks, you compared to pet buying petrol, you'd go, oh, yeah, well, this is a much better value, but that's just not how your brain thinks.

Phil: My brain thinks games should cost to bucks.

Phil: And most of the games I buy these days are on sale.

DVader: Yes.

DVader: And that's one thing that Nintendo did last gen, where they decided, you know what, no more sales.

DVader: Our games are premium and they're going to stay premium.

DVader: And the best sale you're going to get is $or $off.

DVader: That is it.

DVader: And it has led me to probably the least amount of Nintendo exclusive games that I ever had on a Nintendo console.

DVader: Because the thing was, back in the, like, Wii or any of the old ones, after they would have, you know, the greatest hits line and they'll be like $

DVader: I'll go back and play a lot of games I didn't get.

DVader: And kind of the fringe, the Kirby's, the stuff like the fringe ones that I don't really get day one.

DVader: And now this one, I was pretty much stuck with Mario, Zelda and like one Metroid game and like Smash and that's it.

DVader: Like I wasn't really branching out because I ain't paying these crazy prices for Yoshi yarn or whatever, or Kirby like little kid game.

DVader: Like, no, I'm not.

DVader: So and they never go down in price.

Phil: No.

DVader: And every other console, they would be at some point at least

DVader: That's still like most can go to

Phil: And the galling thing is they're no longer paying for a case.

Phil: They're no longer paying for a manual.

Phil: They've cut out the retailer.

Phil: So the retailer would have been at least throwing on percent.

Phil: And they're distributing it digitally.

Phil: They're basically just photocopying games as you need them.

Phil: So yeah, it's galling.

Phil: And I think by the fact that they're charging for the tutorial shows that they're really profiteering.

Phil: In a way, it's basically like, well, we can charge what we want because you'll pay it.

Phil: Well, okay.

Phil: Well, let's check in with you in months and see how sales are then.

DVader: I mean, I'm a new owner of a Switch so I hope it succeeds.

DVader: But part of me also wants them to be humbled a little bit because this is a little bit absurd.

DVader: Like the amount of just, yeah, we know you're going to pay it.

DVader: So we're going to do the most consumer unfriendly thing possible to you.

DVader: And they just keep doing it and doing it not just with new games, but their old games and they're just the most unfriendly company.

DVader: For a company that's about family and like kids and joy, they are the most ruthless business people out there right now.

Phil: Oh yeah.

Phil: Well, like Miyamoto, Reggie Fiyame was talking about what game he wanted to give away Wii Sports, right?

Phil: Yes.

Phil: He said, we've got to make it a pack-in so people understand the experience.

Phil: It'll be a cult hit.

Phil: This is what's going to sell the system.

Phil: And Miyamoto is like, well, fuck you.

Phil: We spent a lot of time making this game.

Phil: We're not giving away for free, right?

Phil: And Reggie had to fight like basically arm-wrestling into saying, no, well, no, in North America, we are going to release it as a pack-in.

Phil: And Miyamoto is pissed off about it because they sold it as a freestanding game in Japan.

Phil: And I think there's some mentality there that's just wrong.

Phil: It's like, hey, look at the big picture, right?

Phil: Look at the big picture.

Phil: You don't sell the Astro Butt Tutorial for your console.

Tom: Right.

DVader: And at least the Astro Butt Tutorial would have been a much better game to even buy than whatever this thing is, which is just like an instruction manual with interactive, like it's nonsense.

Phil: Yeah, basically.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So we'll just move away from Switch and then we'll close off because I've got a question for you.

Phil: And that is, let's have a look at the biggest console sales ever, and have a look at what had happened next, right?

Phil: So you've got Atari the first VCS.

Phil: The next thing that they released was the Atari

Phil: And it was a massive flop, right?

Phil: Nintendo Entertainment System.

Phil: The next system they released was the Super Nintendo.

Phil: And I think they won at the end, but Genesis fought them pretty hard, didn't they?

DVader: In America, yeah.

DVader: World, I think, Nintendo handily won the worldwide market.

DVader: But in America, it was pretty much -

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I remember the times.

Phil: I mean, Genesis was the cool system to own.

DVader: Yeah, absolutely.

Phil: Let's see.

Phil: What's another big seller?

Phil: Well, obviously PlayStation

Phil: So PlayStation Big Hit, PlayStation Blunder.

DVader: Yeah, struggled.

Phil: Xbox Big Hit.

Phil: Next one was Xbox One, which was a Titanic disaster.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: I don't think there's a bigger one than Wii to Wii U.

DVader: Like that.

Phil: Well, that is like falling off Grand Canyon, that one.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Wii to Wii U.

Phil: Like you could say to Xbox One was of comparable proportion.

DVader: It was pretty bad too.

DVader: Yeah, you're right.

Phil: But Wii to Wii U, at least the games were there.

Phil: God, the Wii U had some great games.

DVader: Which is why they all got Second Life on the Switch.

DVader: They were so good.

DVader: They were so good, those games.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: Wii U had great games.

Phil: I'd say the only time that it's escalated is Game Boy to Game Boy Advance.

Phil: And then Game Boy Advance to DS.

Phil: And then I wouldn't say DS to DS.

Phil: I thought DS was not a great system.

DVader: No, it wasn't.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that's two of us that think that.

Phil: I don't think we're missing out on anyone.

Phil: Sega, okay, Sega Genesis nothing.

DVader: Yeah.

DVader: The Saturn was a total disaster.

DVader: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And the poor old Dreamcast, which is one of my favorite.

DVader: The poor Dreamcast, one of the old-time greats.

DVader: And it only lasted like two or three years.

DVader: The amount of games that thing had, for the little tiny time it lived, maybe there's no console that had the average of game per time.

DVader: Like that game, like that system had.

Phil: I've got over of them in my collection for the Dreamcast.

Phil: You know, you think it's so, so good.

Phil: And it's, oh man, you know, in another dimension.

DVader: Yeah, it was magical because so many new things, the first online system, the first whatever bit, whatever the, whatever the processing is called, that first next gen, like it was unit, it was amazing, magical.

Phil: Now I love playing in the games too, like NBA K, right?

Phil: So, Soul Calibur, you know, Crazy Taxi, Fantasy Star Online, Fantasy Star Online.

Phil: What was the boxing game?

Phil: Let's get ready to rumble.

Phil: Even the stupid arcade games were fantastic.

DVader: Yeah, Crazy Taxi and you had, it was great.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Even the bad games were good, like Blue Stinger.

DVader: Blue Stinger, we both had the Blue Stinger, for sure.

DVader: We had weird games like Ill Bleed and I heard, what was the other, there was a Machin X?

DVader: I don't know, that was pretty good.

Phil: Oh yeah, Machin X.

DVader: Yeah, there were some interesting things.

DVader: Oh, Headhunter.

DVader: Oh no, that was on PSI'm sorry.

DVader: I think they ported it to PS

DVader: Of course, you had your Shenmue's and.

Phil: The fact that I would have friends over on a Saturday afternoon to watch me play Blue Stinger.

DVader: Yes.

Phil: Just to watch me play.

DVader: The graphics on that console were mind-blowing.

DVader: That's to me, there's no greater leap from PlayStation Nintendo that to a Dreamcast.

DVader: That blew my mind more than anything else ever.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Generationally, I think playing Halo on Xbox was a moment for me, but the Dreamcast really just mopped everyone else up at the time.

Phil: Now, so what I'm saying is, if you look at all the big successful launches in history, the Switch history doesn't bode well.

DVader: Right.

Phil: I am hopeful that it does because, as you said, you've bought one.

Phil: I want to buy one as well.

Phil: And the weird thing is, you used to say, should I buy this at launch?

Phil: So there's two things to take into question.

Phil: Well, will you buy it before a price drop?

Phil: If you are going to buy it before a price drop, you may as well buy it now and enjoy the experience and not have FOMO.

Phil: And the other consideration was, do I buy it now, wait and see if there's a hardware failure.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So the hardware failure thing is always there, like something could come up, you know, but less so with Nintendo, obviously, because they've never had, except for the original DS, remember the ribbon in the middle was breaking.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: The ribbon between the two screens.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, that was the only real Nintendo problem that they ever had.

Phil: But now the question is, I better buy this before the price goes up, because now consoles go up in price.

Phil: Yeah, they're a good investment.

DVader: Right.

DVader: That's the world we live in now, and that's part of my equation was, it's never going to go down in price.

DVader: It might go up in price.

DVader: So I might as well buy it.

DVader: Yeah, there was no question to me.

DVader: I want this thing at some point, so I might as well get it now.

Phil: Maybe that will work on my wife.

Phil: Hey, I got to get in on the ground level with this thing, man.

Phil: This is going to be a good investment.

DVader: It is weird times there.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Well, D.

Phil: Vader, thanks so much for joining us in this special Switch segment.

Phil: We hope to have you back again as many times as you'll come back.

Phil: But we'll go back to our regular programming now.

Phil: Thanks again for coming on.

DVader: Thank you.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that was great.

Phil: Just in time, here comes my venerable co-host, Tom Towers.

Phil: Welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast, Tom.

Tom: Thank you.

Tom: I'm glad to be here.

Tom: Now, we can finally get the show back in a better direction, I dare say.

Phil: Two Australians.

Phil: The ACCC were about to look into us because we advertise as an Australian podcast, and yet there we had the Floridian in here, the Floridian interlope.

Tom: I think Florida is the Australia of America though.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You've got to listen to his impressions of the Switch though, fantastic.

Phil: But we're going to move on to the other news.

Phil: Other news did happen this week besides the Switch and this is one that most people have been probably tuning in, wanting us to talk about.

Phil: The Princess Peach voice actor has been replaced after years.

Phil: After replacing, and credit for this goes to eurogamer.com.

Phil: After replacing Charles Martinet as the voice of Mario back in

Tom: The Princess Peach voice actor replaced Charles Martinet?

Phil: No, no, I'm reading you the story.

Tom: That was a very confusing way they've written the intro there.

Phil: Well, they're trying to say that Nintendo is going on a killing spree.

Phil: You know, they're slashing Martinet, now they're going after Peach.

Phil: Where will it end?

Tom: Are there any other voice actors in the Mario series?

Phil: Well, they've got the dude that does Bowser, and their CEO is Jack Black.

Phil: Jack, no, not Jack Black.

Tom: He definitely did Bowser.

Phil: He did a good job.

Tom: I think Bowser is now Jack Black.

Tom: I think they're forever linked.

Phil: Did you see the movie?

Tom: Yes, but it was very disappointing after watching the live action music video for Bowser's song.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: Well, anyway, back to the story.

Phil: Samantha Kelly has confirmed she's been ditched as the voice of Princess Peach and Toad, let's not forget Toad, after years, but she wasn't informed by Nintendo until yesterday when Mario Kart World released on Switch without her in the role.

Phil: Kelly portrayed the Princess Peach since Mario Strikers Charged on Wii and her voice is featured in over games since, culminating in last year's Mario & Luigi Brothership.

Phil: However, she doesn't appear in Nintendo's latest Mario title, Mario Kart World.

Phil: And Kelly has now confirmed she only found out that she's been replaced after its debut.

Phil: Quote, Nintendo let me know yesterday that they decided to recast the roles.

Phil: I'm grateful I got to do these voices for so many years.

Phil: Peach and Toad are such strong and beautiful characters and I pray they live forever no matter who voices them.

Phil: Thank you for so many years of friendship and joy.

Phil: I'm sad it's over.

Phil: I truly would have wanted to voice Peach and Toad forever.

Tom: Would she not have been able to infer that she had been replaced given that Mario World was about to be released and she had presumably not recorded any lines for it?

Phil: Yes, but given the retinue of Princess Peach's vocabulary, she probably did assume, yeah, I've been fired, but she may have assumed, oh, they're just going to do the voice actor thing where they take my woo-hoo, ah, woo, and just from prior games and insert them in.

Tom: I take it you are the new Princess Peach.

Phil: I know, it hasn't been announced yet who the new Princess Peach is and I'm not going to break any NDAs.

Phil: So, but now, do you remember when Charles Martinet got the sack?

Tom: Like it was yesterday.

Phil: You remember how they soft-shoed the story?

Tom: Absolutely.

Phil: They said that he was going to be, yeah, we're getting rid of Charles Martinet, but we're going to make him a Nintendo ambassador.

Tom: Is that a bit like being put out to pasture, I think.

Phil: I think so.

Phil: Well, Charles Martinet's response was, they haven't really discussed this with me.

Phil: I don't know what a Nintendo ambassador is, but I'm sure we'll all learn in time what that means.

Tom: I think it's a type of glue.

Phil: Look, when you consider that Nintendo ambassadorships were being handed out, remember when they launched the DS and it was too expensive, the DS and it was too expensive, then they apologized to all the people that owned it or bought it at launch, and rather than giving them a refund, they made them Nintendo ambassadors and then gave them, I think, three free Game Boy games.

Tom: Is this what is going to happen with the Switch do you think?

Tom: Can we say we just had a Nintendo ambassador on the show?

Phil: Possibly.

Phil: So then I looked up as a part of my journalistic research, of course, what has Charles Martinet done as Nintendo ambassador?

Phil: What events has he appeared?

Phil: What has he done?

Phil: Because Nintendo did say that, well, he'll go to events and he'll sign autographs and he'll do the Mario voice in non-licensed atmospheres, right?

Phil: So basically, you go and say, hey, can you say it's a me?

Phil: And he'll say, it's a me.

Phil: But there's nothing there, like he hasn't done a PAX or anything.

Phil: So I think it's shabby.

Phil: Do you think that I'm overreacting by thinking it's shabby the way they've treated these two voice actors?

Tom: I think it's pretty poor, definitely.

Phil: Because they've contributed to the character.

Phil: They've contributed to what people feel about the character and think about the character.

Tom: Well, they haven't even offered her the role of Nintendo ambassador, have they?

Phil: No.

Tom: Sorry, Switch owners.

Phil: It's a success, really.

Tom: I don't think it's going to happen for you either.

Phil: The whole ambassadorship probably is closed up now that Charles Martinez is on the job.

Phil: Other news?

Phil: Let's see, what else happened?

Phil: Oh, yes.

Phil: Summer Games Fest happened.

Phil: There was a few and very few notable games that were announced there.

Phil: Let's see, First Light.

Phil: The guys behind Hitman, IO Interactive unveiled its James Bond game.

Phil: They're going to have a deeper gameplay reveal later this summer.

Phil: That's interesting.

Tom: Is it a first-person shooter or like a stealth game like Hitman?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I missed the trailer if there even was a trailer.

Phil: I think they just showed the logo.

Phil: But I could be completely wrong on that one.

Tom: This is the type of content you come to The Game Under Podcast for.

Phil: Well, this isn't the most important game that was announced.

Phil: I tell you what was of interest to me, would you in any circumstance have thought that Plague Tale would receive a third sequel?

Tom: No, I wouldn't.

Phil: Yeah, well, it has.

Phil: And they've kept with this stupid naming paradigm.

Phil: Resonance colon Plague Tale has been announced.

Tom: So they've actually changed it.

Tom: It would be a Plague Tale colon Resonance if they were sticking to their guns.

Phil: Now the colon is on the other side.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: And given a completely forgettable name like Resonance, yeah, so that's encouraging.

Phil: I didn't think the sales would have been there for the third after the second game.

Phil: I didn't think that the money was there for a third one.

Phil: This is of course developed by Asobo.

Phil: And they do a lot of, they do a lot.

Phil: I mean, they do Microsoft Flight Simulator, for example.

Phil: So I'm glad that they're able to work on this, their own creation, their own IP.

Phil: It's a very French little game.

Phil: And I fell off the second one.

Phil: But you know what error I did there.

Phil: I played it back to back.

Phil: I finished the first one and then went straight into the second one.

Phil: You should never do that, people.

Tom: I suspect that with their Flight Simulator money, they can do whatever they want.

Phil: That's true.

Phil: That's true.

Phil: And good for them.

Phil: I just, as you know, I love working studios like Sumo Digital.

Phil: I like these studios that do all this other work.

Phil: But then when they can have their own IP, that they can finally work on themselves, I think that's really special.

Phil: Speaking of, did you finish the second one?

Tom: Yes, I did.

Phil: And how do you think that held up compared to the first?

Tom: From memory, I thought it was well worth playing as well.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And we should add Resonance, I think is a prequel.

Phil: Oh, really?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: That's going to be interesting.

Tom: Apparently, you journey to the Minotaur's Island and unravel ancient secrets.

Tom: So maybe it's a Tomb Raider take on Plague Tale.

Phil: That's why the colon's on the other side, because it's a prequel.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: That makes all the sense in the world.

Tom: Now it makes perfect sense.

Tom: So now you're a fan of the title, I assume.

Phil: How many meetings do you think they had?

Phil: No, I'm not a fan, because if this was a physical release, and on my shelf, I'd have to put this with the R's, not the P's.

Phil: It would be very annoying.

Tom: You just need to turn the case upside down.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So yeah, the whole rat thing was great in that game.

Phil: This is really interesting.

Phil: So yeah, I do want to see what it was like before the kingdom fell.

Phil: That's going to be really interesting.

Phil: Anyway, details remain scarce.

Phil: The title appears to be a dark narrative-driven adventure with deep emotional storytelling just like everything else that they've done.

Tom: I think I might unfortunately not fulfill what you want out of it because it does appear, like I said, to be a bit of a different setting, given your journey to the Minotaurs Island.

Tom: So not sure it's going to be like you're in the same areas just earlier on.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Well, speaking of working studio, Sumo Digital is my favorite and they're the ones that have turned out so many fantastic games including Sonic and Sega All-Star Racing.

Phil: Well, there's a new kart game that's been introduced by Sega, Sonic Racing Cross Worlds.

Phil: Unfortunately, this is developed by Sonic Team, not by Sumo Digital.

Phil: So I hope they don't screw it up.

Phil: But presumably, Sega owns all the code, perhaps, for the prior Sonic Kart games.

Phil: So they may have been able to carry that over.

Phil: But it's cool that they've got guest racers, not guest racists.

Phil: They've got guest racers like Hatsune Miku, Ichiban Kasugi from Like a Dragon and Joker from Persona

Phil: The game is coming out soon.

Phil: It's around the corner.

Phil: It's coming out in September of this year.

Tom: I think Sumo Digital is actually working on two different arcade racing games or no, they may have come out last year.

Tom: Are you familiar with either of them?

Tom: Deathsprint

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Tom: Stampede Racing Royale.

Phil: Yeah, the Death Race one is a sad one.

Phil: That had a lot of support from the British press because Sumo is such, they're all likable people and this was there.

Phil: Just as we talked about with Asobu, this was their own IP that they developed.

Phil: Basically, it was like, what's the name of the Arnold Schwarzenegger movie?

Phil: The one with the Running Man?

Phil: The Running Man, right?

Tom: The Running Man.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's show time.

Phil: They had basically made the Running Man and it was supposed to be an online service game, basically, a perpetual game that people would come in and compete in and all the rest of it.

Phil: It was apparently very good and revolutionary.

Phil: But of course, they're all chasing after the same money that Roblox and Fortnite and Destiny and everyone else is chasing after.

Phil: I just don't think that they had the publisher support, besides the fact that it's very hard to break into that upper echelon of live service games.

Phil: Since then, the two co-founders have announced their retirement from the company, which is not the way I saw that ending.

Phil: I thought that they might eventually get bought out by Sony or Sega or Microsoft or someone like that.

Phil: So they're leaving the company without a big cash out.

Phil: But they would have made their millions by now.

Phil: But unfortunately, that Death Race just did not work for them, despite a lot of things going for it in its favor.

Tom: The Stampede Racing Royale is already closing its servers.

Phil: Yeah, I didn't even hear about that one.

Phil: They were really good at what they did.

Phil: Really good.

Phil: And they're still operating.

Phil: Unlike Codemasters.

Phil: You're familiar with Codemasters?

Tom: Yeah, of course.

Phil: They've done fantastic work with Frecently, but they started with, I think the Stamper Brothers started them in the Commodore era.

Phil: They had games, budget games that looked great and were very short and simple, fast to load, things like BMX Simulator.

Phil: They are store boards in racing.

Phil: They developed the Dirt Series, the Colin McRae stuff.

Phil: They've been fantastic and around for years at least.

Phil: EA bought them so that they could have the Flicense.

Phil: Apparently, the games have suffered since EA bought them, probably because development by committee has stepped in and crimped their style.

Phil: Now, rumors are that Codemasters will be shut down, which will leave a massive hole in the game development community in the UK.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: The Yakuza guys have got a new game called Stranger Than Heaven.

Phil: This was formerly known as Project Century.

Phil: Not a lot seen there.

Phil: It was a teaser trailer, looked like everything else they've ever done.

Phil: It's an action brawler as opposed to the turn-based Like a Dragon.

Phil: Resident Evil got announced.

Phil: This was hinted at Capcom's last PR thing.

Phil: Now, it's been properly announced.

Phil: It looks like you'll be playing perhaps two characters or at least one female character, but there's probably going to be an element of switching off between two different protagonists in the game.

Phil: Rumors say.

Tom: Surely, you spoke about this with Vader.

Phil: No, actually, that's the one thing that we didn't talk about on the air.

Phil: There's lots of rumors and speculation going around, that's for sure.

Phil: But he's psyched about it.

Phil: He certainly knew it in and out, but unfortunately, we'd already used up our time talking about the Switch

Tom: I'm just wondering whether it will be first or third person.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know.

Tom: He may have been able to answer.

Phil: Yeah, or anyone who had actually watched the trailer.

Tom: I think it's a cinematic trailer actually.

Phil: Besides the Summer Game Fest, Sony had their own state of play.

Phil: I'd say there's really nothing interesting in anything that they had there.

Phil: They had more about Capcom's Onimusha.

Phil: They had a little bit more about IO Interactives' James Bond game.

Phil: Microsoft had their own showcase.

Phil: They talked about Call of Duty Black Ops

Phil: Can you believe they're up to Black Ops ?

Tom: I can't believe this Call of Duty, don't they make one every year?

Phil: Yeah, but still, they had a little bit more about the Outer Worlds

Phil: So it's a new trailer and that's going to come out in October of this year.

Phil: Obviously being developed by Obsidian.

Phil: Did you play the original Outer Worlds?

Tom: A little bit of it.

Phil: Yeah, I played it on Switch and the text was way too small and I just gave up on it.

Phil: Gears of War is getting another remaster.

Phil: So they talked about that, that will be coming to PlayStation.

Phil: In stuff that they don't own, Persona Revival.

Phil: Atlus is doing a remake of Persona again for the endless amount of time, but really nothing else that was interesting other than Ninja Gaiden

Phil: They had the first look at that.

Phil: So apparently, they've got something to do with that.

Phil: Obviously, Ninja Gaiden, these in the last years has been associated with Microsoft first and foremost, so they're doing another one of those.

Tom: Excellent.

Tom: Another game I would bring up, I don't know if you've been following it is Silent Hill F.

Phil: No, I haven't been following that.

Phil: So Konami is obviously publishing it.

Tom: So this is coming after the whole PT debacle that they went through, and they're following up the massive disappointment with how that panned out with Silent Hill game that actually sounds pretty interesting.

Tom: They've got Akira Yamaoka composing the music, and the story is being written by Ryukishi

Tom: I don't know if I pronounced any of that correctly, but he's apparently a visual novel writer, and it is set not in America, but in Japan.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I believe it has been refused classification in Australia.

Phil: Of course.

Phil: Well, when's it getting released?

Phil: Like shortly, obviously.

Tom: I think this September.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I believe as Australians, we are going to have to pirate it.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Well, do our civic duty.

Phil: Do what we must.

Phil: I did look it up.

Phil: Resident Evil hasn't been confirmed as either a third-person or a first-person game.

Phil: It will reportedly be third-person following the style of the recent remakes rather than the first-person perspective of Resident Evil

Tom: Interesting.

Tom: Well, you say follow the remake styles, but the Resident Evil remake was certainly different to the Resident Evil and remakes.

Phil: Right.

Tom: I would presume it must be more in line with Resident Evil

Phil: Yes.

Phil: According to Insider Reports, the game is designed as a third-person experience from the beginning, though there are rumors that it may include an optional first-person mode.

Phil: Which makes sense.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: It's free to do.

Phil: The final news story is an interview with Leslie Benzies.

Phil: Credit to this goes to gameindustry.biz.

Phil: Do you know who Leslie Benzies is?

Tom: I don't believe I do.

Phil: He was the producer behind Grand Theft Auto games from -as well as Red Dead Redemption.

Tom: Actually, I have heard of him.

Tom: Go on.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: As well as Red Dead Redemption in LA.

Phil: Noire.

Phil: He is obviously a lightning rod for attention, anything this guy is doing.

Phil: Well, he's created a new studio called Build a Rocket Boy, and some of the attention he's been getting has been less popular.

Phil: The game that they're building is called Mind's Eye.

Phil: It's out now actually.

Phil: It just launched today.

Phil: It's full price, well, it's $USD.

Phil: It's lower in price than most other games, and it's a -hour single-player game, and it's in the style of Grand Theft Auto, in the style of but not a direct copy of.

Tom: What does that mean?

Tom: Is it an open world game?

Phil: Open world crime sort of thing.

Tom: A third-person shooter, I assume, if it's in the style of Grand Theft Auto.

Phil: That's right, and they're selling the game, but they've also got something called Play Mind's Eye, where they've got tools where you can make your own levels for the game and distribute them online, and have people play it.

Phil: They haven't really figured out what they're doing with multiplayer yet, and so it's like, okay, the guy was smooth.

Phil: You go into it and you're like, oh, this sounds great.

Phil: It's only hours, it's cheap.

Phil: It's like Grand Theft Auto, but it's not and then you can build your own levels.

Phil: But then you're like, but they haven't figured out multiplayer and they want to make it a live service game.

Phil: I just think this thing is going to fizzle.

Tom: It's early access.

Phil: I don't even know that it is early access.

Phil: I think that they're releasing the single-player thing, along with the level maker thing, and then going, hey, yeah, but there's more to come later than later.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know.

Phil: They're selling the base game at launch with a pass for upcoming content additions, but they don't really know how they're going to package.

Tom: It's a gameplay trailer and it features a QTE event of someone giving someone resuscitation, a heart massage.

Tom: I'm not sure if that's a good sign that they put that in the trailer.

Phil: Listen to this question.

Phil: You're selling the game, the base game at launch with a pass for upcoming content additions.

Phil: Do you have a vision for how you're going to package future stories in an overarching Mind's Eye experience?

Phil: Well, it depends on the scale of the story.

Phil: Some will be free and some will be paid.

Tom: Depends on what we can get away with.

Phil: Yes, exactly.

Phil: The next question, and this is the only reason why I've included this in this week's news, even though it is an important interview, go to gamesindustry.biz and read it.

Phil: It's interesting.

Phil: Here's a question.

Phil: After you left Rockstar Games, what came next?

Phil: What led you to building the new studio?

Phil: I spent a few years looking into some other things.

Phil: Going into some property development, using some games experience, we made a thing called VR Architect, which allowed you to build houses and view them in VR.

Phil: I spent a lot of time in Los Angeles at this point, and this is when the droughts were bad.

Phil: I got into making these machines that would suck water out of the air.

Phil: Still sitting in my backyard garden in Los Angeles is this big clunky machine.

Phil: It works like an air conditioning unit.

Phil: It could suck up liters of water.

Phil: So I got involved with that.

Tom: Does he also have a perpetual motion machine in the works?

Phil: Then he goes on about how he loves games and all the rest of it.

Phil: Since I was a kid, it's all I've wanted to do.

Phil: Then he says, I thought, I better get back into making games.

Tom: As soon as I'm done, let me tell you about the water-based fuel system I'm working on.

Phil: I'm pretty sure his wife was the one that said, you better get back into making games.

Phil: Because this engine started out with, I spent a few years looking into some other things, going into some property development, and then his other things.

Phil: I'm pretty sure this is going to be a major car crash.

Phil: It might just be a minor car crash.

Phil: It doesn't get a lot of attention.

Phil: But hey, prove me wrong, children.

Tom: So I just read to you the gameplay description for the other game they're working on, which is hot everywhere.

Phil: Yes, that's controversial too for some reason.

Tom: The players start in the city of Utopia, where they access different experiences such as biomes surrounding the city, different game modes, user-generated environments called arcs, or the game Mind's Eye.

Tom: They can play the game that they're currently releasing in this other game.

Tom: Each of these experiences can be accessed by portals in Utopia City or the Everywhere menu.

Tom: Everywhere is set in an open world made up of Utopia City and four biomes.

Tom: While Utopia is a safe zone, the biomes have PVP and PVE elements.

Tom: There are four game modes known as districts, racing district, an arcade racing game mode, entertainment district featuring an art gallery, combat district, a third-person shooter mode, and the collection used to access and purchase user-generated content.

Tom: The game features an editor environment known as Arcadia, which includes a library of reusable components called stamps, which can be used to build virtual items and experiences.

Phil: It sounds like a scam.

Tom: That's what I was thinking.

Phil: It sounds like a scam.

Phil: He said, we took inspiration from roadblocks.

Tom: It sounds more inspired by Second Life, but no one wants to reference that for some reason.

Phil: No, no, they don't.

Tom: That actually brings to mind another interview with another formerly important developer.

Tom: I suppose, he's on a totally different level to Leslie Benzies, so it's a bit insulting to compare the two.

Tom: But I'm thinking of Peter Molyneux, who I think his career is just fascinating because he went from creating some of the greatest and most influential games of all time to floating around, coming up with essentially scam game ideas and doing interviews, and that's it.

Phil: Yeah, I can't believe we didn't talk about this in the last episode I meant to.

Phil: Do you have the details of his latest interview where he discussed what happened to Milo?

Tom: Well, essentially, what happened with Milo was, it was a creative tech demo idea that required the Kinect to be more powerful than what they ended up releasing, if I remember correctly.

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: He said Milo was basically killed because Microsoft had given them a prototype of the Kinect which cost $to build, and then they started working on tech demos based on that because they thought that that was going to be the target hardware, and then they just changed what the target hardware was going to be to basically an iToy, right?

Phil: iToy is from PlayStation, and then he basically went, well, we can't do any of this.

Phil: We can't do any of this.

Phil: He blames that one on Microsoft fairly and squarely rather.

Tom: I just think it's fascinating that he just floats around coming up with essentially ideas that must sound attractive to CEOs or whoever the hell is giving R&D funding, but don't ever go anywhere.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But this is exactly like Nolan Bushnell.

Phil: Nolan Bushnell was the founder of Atari, and he sold out to Warner Brothers for, at the time, what he thought was a lot of money, but it was really not a lot of money in retrospect.

Phil: And then went on to basically blow that money entirely on every stupid idea he could come up with.

Phil: Now, one of the good ideas he came up with was a children's themed restaurant, or a themed restaurant for children that featured animatronics called Chuck E.

Phil: Cheese's.

Phil: So they basically served the world's worst pizza, but they had an animatronic rat in the corner, and that was enough for kids.

Phil: I did go to a Chuck E.

Phil: Cheese once.

Phil: It was popular for children's birthdays.

Tom: They still exist?

Phil: I believe they still exist.

Phil: He no longer owns it.

Phil: But if you just look, I can't recall all of them, but basically every interview I've seen with Nolan Bushnell since he left Atari is basically like, and here's my latest scam.

Phil: I created Atari.

Phil: I created Chuck E.

Phil: Cheese.

Phil: Give me the money, profit will come.

Phil: It's sad.

Phil: But he and Mr.

Phil: Molyneux, and we obviously only know them through the sphere of the media that we're presented, are basically twins.

Phil: They're well-meaning guys that had a lot of success, and then from there on, they haven't had it.

Tom: Well, that's the beautiful thing about Molyneux.

Tom: I can't come on and Bushnell as I don't know enough about him.

Tom: But Molyneux is clearly very authentic in the ideas he comes up with.

Phil: I think where he undercut his credibility entirely was there was an ETH.

Tom: Well, one of them was actually a scam.

Phil: Well, yeah, the goddess one, or goddess or goddess or whatever it was, right?

Phil: That kid, that poor kid still hasn't made any money off of it apparently.

Phil: The one that won the award for clicking until the who knows.

Phil: Where Molyneux lost his credibility was there was an Ewhere they had a connect fable game, which is basically where you're riding in a cart the entire time, and you look this way and you look that way, right?

Phil: And you're in essentially a roller coaster cart, but they've made it look like a cart with a horse in front of it, right?

Phil: Because it's a fable connect game.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And he did the game's presentation and then he said, now before any of you journalists leave the room, I want you to take this pen and write on the wall, this is not an on rails game because this is not an on rails game.

Phil: So I want you to take the pen, write up on the wall, this is not an on rails game and then put your name next to it because I don't want to see in any of your stories that this is an on rails game.

Phil: So everyone's like, what the f-

Phil: So seriously, you want us to write on this convention center's wall?

Phil: They're obviously going to have to repair this.

Phil: Like it's not your wall, mate.

Phil: So there were some journalists who are like, yeah, we're journalists.

Phil: I'm not going to pledge that this is not an on rails game because this looks like an on rails game and it got fairly heated and obviously there was some people there that did write up on the wall.

Phil: They don't want to piss off Peter Molyneux.

Phil: So there you go.

Phil: It's not an on rails game.

Phil: Then the game was released and guess what?

Phil: It was an on rails game.

Phil: I think that's where the enthusiast press basically split ways with him and possibly even like, you can imagine the guy's working, he's working for Microsoft at that point.

Phil: You can imagine his bosses hearing that story going, what the hell, mate?

Phil: What are you doing?

Phil: This is like a self goal.

Phil: It's clearly an on the rails game.

Phil: But he was, he's like, oh, it's going to be more than that.

Phil: Get out of the car, I'm going to go around shooting people with a gun and stuff and chasing chickens.

Phil: It's like, well, yeah, but that didn't happen.

Phil: I think that was the demise of Peter Molyneux.

Tom: His career was not as on rails as he thought it was.

Tom: There was a detour he didn't see coming.

Phil: No offense to probably what's the large demographic of our regular listeners, but can you really trust a British person with a French last name?

Phil: I know, it's not a populace.

Tom: Well, whenever I hear his name now, I think of Stephen Molyneux, a different Molyneux entirely.

Tom: So you may have a point.

Tom: I think he was one of the great YouTube political figures from the Gamergate era.

Phil: I missed all that or forgotten it, which is less likely.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: You ready to talk about your generation?

Tom: I am finally ready to.

Tom: But I mean, just we talked a lot about all of that, just to compare him to Mr.

Tom: Benzies from Rockstar.

Tom: I don't think he manages to pull off the character of being innocent bumbling fool like Molyneux and Bushnell.

Phil: I mean, if you see a picture of the Benzies, he's the business.

Phil: I think that, look, anyone who produced those Grand Theft Auto through and the Red Dead and LA.

Phil: Noire, and I know he also did Chinatown Wars as well, I mean, he's the business.

Phil: You know what I mean?

Phil: He was known as the fixer for Rockstar, basically, and I imagine he left on his own volition because he'd already made the millions.

Phil: But yeah, he had a great reputation in the industry as being the guy that everyone called on when something needed to be fixed.

Phil: In some ways, in most ways, and in all ways, I wish him good luck.

Phil: But also, it sounds really shaky.

Phil: Well, THQ, if they still existed, I mean, the dumb move would have been that he's saying, you know what?

Phil: This whole Saints Row thing lost its way.

Phil: I'm going to bring back the Saints Row franchise.

Phil: I've bought it using my billions, that's right, and it's going to be called the Benz's Saints Row.

Tom: It's going to use Connect.

Phil: It's going to use Connect.

Tom: But it won't be on Rails.

Phil: Talking about our generation, this is a new feature that we've got.

Phil: Which we discuss, which console did you favor in each generation?

Phil: We've decided to go backwards through time.

Phil: This episode, we're going to talk about the last generation of console games and talk about our favorite in each one.

Phil: This is a pretty substantial era.

Phil: I think there's a clear winner in this one.

Phil: PlayStation Xbox One, Wii U and obviously, the perennial PC.

Phil: But maybe we just talk about the consoles first.

Phil: PlayStation remains to be very popular.

Phil: Even though the PlayStation has come out and sold extremely well.

Phil: The PlayStation is still getting new games every week.

Tom: Can we not include the Switch in this generation as well?

Phil: No, we included the Switch in the current gem.

Tom: But it cuts across both.

Phil: It did.

Phil: It did.

Phil: But I don't think we should give Nintendo two bites of the Apple here.

Phil: They did have the Wii U.

Phil: I think they got to own it.

Tom: Where are we going to put the Switch to then?

Phil: In the next generation.

Phil: When Microsoft comes out with their stupid handheld.

Phil: Did you see that news this week?

Phil: No.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So everyone goes, oh, Microsoft is releasing a handheld.

Phil: Well, they're not.

Phil: This is something that's been talked about for months.

Phil: Asus Rogue Ally.

Phil: Asus has been making these handhelds called the Rogue Ally, which is Rogue is spelled R-O-G, and Ally is probably spelled A-L-I-I-I.

Phil: It's just basically a portable PC in a Steam Deck format.

Phil: Microsoft isn't making it.

Phil: They've just basically lent their branding to it.

Phil: It's going to run Windows and it'll have the equivalent of Steam Big Picture Mode for the Game Pass.

Phil: It's got an Xbox logo on it, but they're not developing it.

Phil: They're getting a licensing fee, I presume.

Phil: They've got to get some money out of this.

Phil: This is their way of dipping their toe into the handheld market.

Phil: Rumors came out last week that the internal handheld team at Microsoft had been, if not disbanded, basically put on hold.

Phil: And it's probably so they can assess to see how this project goes with Asus.

Phil: Yeah, so they're not really released handheld, but a Xbox branded handheld is coming to market.

Tom: Anything is an Xbox, as they say, so they don't need to make any of the Xboxes themselves.

Phil: That's it.

Phil: I think they've lost their way in some degree, but we'll wait and see how this one goes.

Phil: I can't see it being hugely successful.

Phil: I mean, it's not like people love Windows so much, they want a handheld version of it.

Phil: But it would probably fit your user case because you want access to a lot more than what the Steam Deck will provide through its Linux interface.

Phil: Is that fair to say?

Phil: I mean, if you had a handheld access to Game Pass, but it's also still Windows so you can do whatever you want with it in terms of emulation.

Tom: I think there are ways around the limitations of the Steam Deck, so that you can do that on the Steam Deck as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: I would probably choose between the two on the basis of which had the better hardware and value proposition.

Phil: Right.

Phil: I think also too, I think you'd have to take into consideration access to the raw metal.

Phil: Because obviously in Steam Deck, you're not getting the pudgy operating system of Windows updating constantly and changing your privacy settings every three seconds.

Tom: Which is an advantage and a disadvantage.

Phil: In what way?

Phil: Well, the Linux is obviously a bad thing, right?

Phil: In terms of?

Tom: Well, just for the reasons we were talking about, in terms of access to more things.

Phil: Right.

Tom: So you have to take the limitations and annoyances of Windows to have access to more games.

Phil: Well, I don't know price, I don't know release date, but I do know that it is coming to Australia.

Phil: So at some point, we'll have a head-to-head comparison of those and.

Tom: Do we know what it's called?

Phil: Well, I think it's just Rogue Ally.

Phil: I mean, if you just look up Microsoft Handheld, that's all you're going to need to look at.

Tom: Rogue Ally.

Tom: Apparently, this is actually has been around since but not the Xbox version.

Phil: With the Xbox branding.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Well, just some more information about it.

Phil: I just looked it up.

Phil: The Rogue Xbox Ally and the Rogue Xbox Ally X are set to launch in Australia this year, the holiday season.

Phil: They haven't initially announced pricing yet, but reports suggest the cost will be comparable to current Rogue Ally systems, which range for, you ready?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Now, Steam Deck costs about a grand.

Phil: If you get the really good one, it costs a grand.

Phil: A Switch in Australia costs about bucks.

Phil: You want to guess what this one is going to set you back?

Tom: I'm going to guess

Phil: $

Tom: But there are different versions of the Rogue Ally presently available.

Tom: So it ranges from, I think, to

Phil: Up to

Phil: So if they were sensible, they're going to go somewhere in the middle of that in terms of their tech, and maybe it's a little bit subsidized by Xbox.

Phil: So maybe if they're going to compete with the Steam Deck, it has to be no more than $

Tom: You think so?

Phil: You think so.

Phil: But then the other thing that is, like when you're buying a console from Microsoft, Sony, Steam, for that matter, now, and the Nintendo, the expectation is I'm going to buy this because this is going to be there.

Phil: This is going to be the console for the next five to eight years.

Phil: If you're buying a handheld Windows computer from Asus, you know they're going to be coming out with another one in a year and a half, and another one a year and a half after that, and all the rest of it.

Tom: But I think the Ally is more powerful than the Steam Deck.

Phil: Oh, most definitely, yeah, most definitely.

Tom: So they may be aiming for something that is more powerful than the Steam Deck anyway, which might justify the higher price.

Phil: Yeah, but you know, that comes with a shortfall too, like battery time, heat.

Tom: It's meant to have better battery life.

Phil: Well, it would make sense because at this point, the Steam Deck is, if not four years old, three years old.

Phil: And obviously the technology in the handheld space goes, you know, exponentially up in every three months, you know, in terms of what's the capabilities of everything.

Phil: It's just a shame that the price is so high.

Phil: Anyway, one to keep an eye on.

Phil: Okay, so I'm almost afraid to go back to introducing this segment.

Phil: Is there anything else you want to get off your chest before we go to talking about our generation?

Tom: I think it's time we finally cover Minecraft.

Tom: We've been teasing it for so long.

Phil: No, we're not going to do Minecraft.

Phil: So in the PlayStation Xbox One and Wii U era, you had a Wii U, didn't you?

Tom: Yes, I did.

Tom: I still do.

Phil: You had a PlayStation

Tom: Correct.

Phil: You didn't have an Xbox One.

Tom: I had a PlayStation Lite.

Phil: Oh man, I wish I had a Lite, but my PlayStation launch was still great.

Phil: It's still fantastic.

Tom: Mine died.

Phil: Besides the fact that it randomly spits out the disc every now and then, like when I was on the th hole playing Hot Shots Golf last weekend.

Phil: It was how I was playing the game of my life and then it spat out the disc.

Tom: You can't save mid-match?

Phil: I looked it up and it said, no, it's canceled on me.

Phil: No, you can't save mid-match.

Phil: Then I looked it up and I said, oh yeah, well, there's a bit of rubber.

Phil: It's because it's a capacitive button, not a mechanical button.

Phil: There's a little bit of rubber underneath and when your PlayStation gets hot, the rubber expands and it thinks it's a finger touching the button and then it ejects it.

Phil: Take the rubber thing off and then you won't have it.

Phil: So I'm like, all right, yeah, okay.

Phil: So I unplug it.

Tom: How do you then eject discs at all?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So I go on YouTube, I figure it all out.

Phil: I turn it upside down.

Phil: I go to remove the rubber.

Phil: I've already removed the rubber.

Phil: I've already done this step.

Phil: So the next step is to take the faceplate off and tighten this screw, but that's only a temporary fix and all the rest of it.

Phil: So I think the poor old thing is on its last legs.

Phil: This is playing it in winter, not like it's playing in an Australian summer.

Phil: Still a great system though.

Tom: Maybe it was too cold.

Tom: You did establish that the heating issue couldn't have been the cause.

Phil: I wish I had a PlayStation Slim.

Phil: Do you still have yours?

Tom: Yeah, I do.

Tom: It's on the table next to me.

Phil: Is it in good order?

Tom: Still works.

Phil: You didn't answer the question.

Tom: It's in good order.

Tom: The only problem that has had when it was new, which is how obscenely loud the fan is.

Phil: I think I've got enough consoles of interest to you.

Phil: We might be able to arrange a SWF of some kind that would be equitable to both parties.

Tom: It sounds like you're trying to send me your broken PlayStation for my working one.

Phil: Oh, no.

Phil: No, I just want the slim and then you can have a Sega Saturn or whatever else.

Phil: I've got four Sega Master systems.

Phil: I'll give you three of them.

Tom: What will you trade for an SNES?

Tom: I've got two of them.

Phil: I've got a couple of SNESes.

Phil: I've got three Atari s if you want a couple of those.

Phil: I've got two Atari Lynxes.

Phil: You're not getting both of them.

Phil: I'll just give you the broken one.

Phil: Anyway, yes, people, I had a buying problem.

Tom: Did you buy the Atari Lynx broken or was it working when you bought it?

Phil: I didn't ask.

Phil: I just bought it.

Tom: So you did indeed have a buying problem.

Phil: I did not do my due diligence.

Phil: Let's just say that.

Phil: I think I actually have three Atari Lynxes.

Phil: All right, enough.

Phil: So you take it from here.

Phil: What was the pros and cons of each of these?

Phil: Which one do you think won the generation for you?

Phil: Basically, which one did you favor?

Tom: I think this one is actually close.

Tom: It's close between the Wii U and the PS

Tom: I think the Wii U gets extra points for its creativity, which not enough games made use of.

Tom: I think the library of the PSis overall better than the Wii U's without any question, but I refuse to give any plaudits to a console generation where the consoles break.

Tom: So I'm going to have to go with the Wii U.

Phil: Well, the Wii U, I'm sad to say, if you still have yours, apparently, the batteries are expanding and leaking in the handheld portion of the Wii U.

Tom: I think mine, the last time I used it, was still alright.

Tom: That was some time ago.

Phil: Mine still are alright, but, and I will say I played Mario Kart on it fairly recently.

Phil: I was hard pressed to see any difference between the Mario Kart on the Switch and on the Wii U.

Tom: Switch or the Switch ?

Phil: Just the Switch.

Phil: It still looks fantastic.

Phil: It's still a great concept.

Phil: The Wii U, I can't say it's my favorite of the generation, but it's most certainly better than the Xbox One.

Phil: The Xbox One was okay, but I just had no passion for it whatsoever.

Phil: It was very impressive.

Phil: Tomb Raider looked great on it and some other games as well, but it just didn't win me over the way PlayStation did with its depth of library and its overall presentation.

Phil: It looked like a VCR basically, whereas the PlayStation had that parabolic pyramid look to it, almost like an illusion type thing.

Phil: I love the look of it.

Phil: The Wii U, the tablet felt cheap because there was really nothing in there other than the monitor.

Phil: The Wii U console itself just looks like a Wii, which was part of their problem.

Phil: I know it's easy for an outsider to say they should have just called it something else entirely.

Phil: The Switch really is the Switch because they moved the computational power from the computer or the dock basically into the tablet, whereas the tablet had all the computational power in a console and nothing.

Phil: It was just a remote receiver really.

Phil: But it felt good.

Phil: The level of games that were on there like Splatoon, Wonderful Bayonetta, all of these games that eventually made their way to Switch, it had that Dreamcast quality to it of having a really dense richness to its library that no one was seeing because no one was buying the Wii U and then Nintendo quickly snuffed it out.

Tom: I think it sounds like you should go with the Wii U too.

Phil: With the Wii U as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But the PlayStation also just continues to deliver so much, you know, so many fantastic gaming experiences and.

Phil: But it didn't really introduce much that the PlayStation didn't.

Phil: They still sort of lost their way with the online for me.

Phil: Like it still didn't seem as cohesive.

Tom: Well, this is the generation, isn't it, that Sony, was Sony charging for online playing on the PS?

Tom: No, they weren't.

Tom: So this is the generation both Sony and Nintendo started charging for online.

Phil: Nintendo didn't charge for online until the Switch.

Phil: Remember, they introduced their family or Nintendo Switch online for like a year.

Tom: So another reason to go with the Wii U.

Phil: The other thing is, I've been thinking about lately, I'm not sure how much, I know PlayStation and Nintendo are going to continue to charge but I'm not sure Xbox can continue to charge for an online service when Game Pass in part is a cloud gaming service.

Tom: What if they did something like offer discounts if you got one of them, the other one was cheaper, something like that.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think if PC gaming was more pervasive, that people wouldn't be standing for this.

Phil: I just don't.

Tom: Well, I don't stand for it.

Tom: I don't pay for Nintendo or PlayStation Online.

Tom: It's incomprehensible to me that you would be asked to pay for what are such abysmally bad online systems.

Phil: Again, if you bought a Nintendo Switch you couldn't actually use it unless you connected it to the Internet.

Phil: They're saying, we'll let you install these multi-gigabyte updates for free.

Phil: In fact, we'll insist that you must.

Phil: You can use your Internet for that because that's on you.

Phil: But if you want to play with your friends on our console, then you're going to have to pay for it.

Phil: I think that in the Minecraft, Fortnite, Roblox world, I think where kids are using tablets, like eventually when those kids get to paying bills, I think that's when it's going to change because they're just going to go, okay, so I already pay bucks to bucks a month for Internet, and now you want me to pay you $a month to play online when I can just do this for free on my tablet?

Phil: Like, what are you doing here?

Phil: Now, if you want me to subscribe to your service like Game Pass, okay, I get that.

Phil: I get that.

Phil: That's like Netflix, Amazon, Prime, Disney Plus.

Phil: I get that.

Phil: But you're just saying, like for the raw functionality, you're letting me connect to download your updates, but you're not letting me just connect with my friends.

Phil: That's, you know, and I could be ignorant in this.

Phil: I mean, Nintendo may already let you play Fortnite for free online.

Phil: That might be outside of NSO.

Phil: Please listeners, if I'm wrong, just go to gameunder.net and post on the front page and let me know.

Phil: But I think it's an old idea that needs to go.

Phil: It needs to go the way the AOL went, right?

Phil: AOL, you're going to pay every month to use email.

Phil: Now we're like, why would you pay to use email?

Tom: All the record, you can indeed play Fortnite online without a Nintendo online membership.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, good for Nintendo because that would, yeah.

Phil: I mean, and I get it's tough for Nintendo because by allowing people to do that and play Fortnite for free, well, they're not playing Mario Kart World, you know.

Phil: As long as they're doing that, they're not engaging with Nintendo.

Phil: How do they make their money on that?

Tom: Fortnite?

Phil: How does Nintendo make any money?

Tom: Would there be some feed Fortnite has to pay to allow Nintendo to have it in their shop?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, if I was Nintendo, I'd be like, we want a piece per user.

Phil: Anyone who's playing your game on our platform, we want a piece of that.

Phil: Which, I mean, are they entitled to that?

Tom: Nintendo is entitled in their mind to as much money as they can make in any way possible, I believe.

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

Phil: By the way, the $demo that you can buy for your new Switch it includes achievements or trophies of some kind, because Nintendo doesn't have achievements and trophies.

Phil: But it has achievements and trophies that you cannot get unless you buy additional accessories to unlock them.

Phil: Which is fantastic.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, I think then we would, I'm reluctantly with no irony.

Phil: Look, I got to go with the PlayStation

Phil: I'm sorry.

Phil: I've got to go with the PlayStation

Phil: I'm going with the Wii U.

Tom: So we're in agreement on this for once.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Wii U, Xbox is the loser.

Phil: PC, we're just going to ignore for now because we can't remember what games were to come out and all the rest of it.

Tom: Well, the PC wins by default.

Tom: So that's why we're not including it.

Phil: That's it.

Phil: And we're not talking about handhelds either because it gets way too complicated.

Tom: What were the handhelds of that generation?

Phil: Who knows?

Tom: DS?

Phil: Who knows?

Phil: It was like DS and Vita probably.

Phil: Yeah, definitely Vita and DS.

Tom: So they were still around then?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Oh yeah, for sure.

Phil: That's when that's a Vita's heyday.

Tom: So what would you go?

Tom: We aren't going to include them now.

Tom: What would you go for between those two options?

Phil: Oh, the Vita by far.

Phil: The Vita was a fantastic handheld.

Tom: I think you hated the DS, didn't you?

Phil: I did not like the DS.

Phil: Like I'm a compulsive video game buyer and I think I've got like three games for the DS.

Tom: Is that why it's called a DS?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I just said I have more games.

Phil: I have more DS than I have games for it.

Phil: Or at least at one point.

Tom: If you thought the Switch was expensive, apparently a DS XL is $at cash converters.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: I have to sell my DS XL.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Thank you.

Tom: I'll trade my PSfor it.

Phil: Oh my.

Tom: We've got a deal.

Phil: No, no, no.

Phil: See now, the reason why I have that is because it's a great way to play DS games.

Phil: That's why it's so it's the biggest, best screen for playing DS games on.

Phil: Now I sound like Trump.

Tom: Is it a Pokemon themed DS?

Phil: I do not know.

Phil: It's not.

Tom: Because if it is, it might be worth over $

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I really got to get back to something.

Phil: Can you draw some Pokemon on it?

Phil: I could.

Phil: I could.

Phil: I could try.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, with that, we're going to close this episode.

Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: So there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, use our comment section from our homepage or the front page.

Phil: I guess there's another way of saying it.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode

Phil: Thanks again to Dee Vader for coming on talking about the Switch

Phil: Thanks to you, Mr.

Phil: Tom Towers.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg.

Tom: Mr.

Tom: Tom Towers.

Phil: We're out.

Game Under Podcast 172

Stream below or right-click and You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:08 Intro

0:00:55 Switch 2 Launch Imminent

0:03:27 Trademark Banter

0:04:53 Akira Remaster

0:08:14 Cinema Revival?

0:13:12 Darth Vader is Disturbed by Your Lack of V-Bucks

0:19:28 AI Talk

0:28:12 S*** Randy Pitchford Says

0:33:00 Doom Dark Ages Best Launch Ever for id

0:38:25 Sony Cuts EU Pricing on PS5

0:39:25 Impressions: Doom the Dark Ages

0:46:37 Diversion on the Naming of Ages

0:55:27 Back to Doom

0:59:12 Clair Obscure: Expedition 33

1:06:53 Feature: Talking 'bout my Generation

1:20:00 Live Music - Kneecap

Transcript:

Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host, a real human being, Tom Towers, and I'm joined by a semi-human being, Phil Fogg.

Phil: We will get to the point where you can just...

Phil: You'll be able to take all the hours of my recordings and turn me into an AI bot, and it's probably going to be better than what we're currently doing, that's for sure.

Phil: But hey, congratulations on episode

Tom: It's a milestone, the important, all-important nd of anything.

Tom: We all know how important that is.

Phil: Before we get into the news, I just saw on the feed that Switch s have been seen in retail stores in the US.

Phil: So it's getting close, it's less than two weeks away now.

Tom: Have they been bought by anyone or just they're in storage?

Phil: No, you've just got Best Buy employees sending out social media posts of, you know, hey, the boxes are here, you know, that sort of thing, which you imagine I'd have to be doing at this point.

Tom: If you were an employee theoretically and you pre-ordered one of them, could you somehow take it home early or not?

Phil: I think that if you're a good enough employee and your manager liked you, you could probably do it.

Phil: But I don't know that if I was a manager, I'd let anyone do it because if you tried, like, you know, how much do you trust this employee to not post it on?

Tom: If you were a manager yourself, would you do it?

Phil: Yeah, absolutely.

Phil: And I'd keep it on the down low.

Phil: I wouldn't keep, I would not connect it to the Internet at all.

Phil: I wouldn't be taking post pictures of it and posting it on social networks or anything like that.

Phil: But yeah, for sure, I'd take it home and do it.

Phil: I mean, yes.

Tom: So if you didn't connect it to the Internet, you wouldn't be able to use it.

Phil: Probably.

Phil: But because it does need a day one switch, a day one update, but I'm not sure that it actually needs it to operate or if that's just like a features thing.

Phil: But yeah, no, for sure, I'd be having friends around, that's for sure, and say, hey, check it out.

Phil: Yeah, that's a benefit of being the manager.

Tom: Before we move on from the Switch that just reminded me of the absurd update to the original Switch's firmware where they've introduced the UI features for their new game card system, which required me to change what was the default console to be able to play a game.

Phil: Really?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: Now, I haven't connected our Switch to the internet recently because my daughter has quit Minecraft.

Phil: And that's her words.

Phil: She says she's quit it.

Phil: It was too stressful.

Phil: But we're going to have a Minecraft feature.

Phil: We should probably say what we're going to get into the show this week.

Phil: We've got some news.

Phil: We're going to talk about what we've been playing, Doom the Dark Ages, Clair Obscure, Minecraft.

Phil: Minecraft is a feature because we hadn't been exposed to it in any great depth and now we've gone and played it just like we did with Roblox.

Phil: So we'll have our impressions.

Tom: We should also play a Roblox version of Minecraft, as I'm sure there are plenty.

Phil: I'm sure there are plenty.

Phil: And but before we get into that, you know, I've been listening to a lot of a lot of my regular podcasts is one of them.

Phil: They've introduced a segment that they call banter at the start of the podcast.

Phil: Right.

Phil: And they go.

Tom: And they can't they can't call it trademark banter though, because that's already trademarked.

Phil: And they go on about how they're the only ones that do it and how they invented it.

Tom: And how old is this podcast?

Phil: This particular podcast is about a year and a half old.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: So yeah, it doesn't really quite check out.

Phil: But they they say they've invented banter and.

Tom: So they didn't just invent a banter segment, they invented banter itself.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So and this is basically where the two hosts talk at the start of a podcast.

Phil: So people get the sense that we're friends and that we've got a certain, you know, connectedness and all the rest of it.

Tom: Which is obviously quite difficult.

Phil: It is difficult.

Phil: We did it.

Phil: Now, we actually did invent banter.

Phil: I don't know when trademark banter first appeared, but it would have been a single digits of into the show.

Phil: We also invented the Yuck is a Killzone Minute.

Tom: And pretending to be friends for a podcast as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: We invented a lot of things like that.

Phil: So but so I just thought maybe before we go into the news, if you have any trademark banter.

Tom: I do.

Tom: And I think you were, I think we should begin with a seminal anime film that was recently given a cinematic re-release for K.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Which is Akira.

Tom: And I think Akira in the anime Pantheon over recent years, probably since the rise and popularity of Studio Ghibli has sort of gone down in terms of its reputation.

Tom: Not many people go to Akira anymore when they think of greatest animated films or greatest films ever anymore.

Tom: At least not as much as they did in the past.

Phil: No, I wouldn't think so.

Phil: I had not heard that Akira had received a remake.

Phil: Has it been well received?

Tom: I think it's, well, there were certainly a lot of people at the cinema.

Tom: So at least people are going and seeing it.

Tom: And it's the K release, which results in something that looks like probably, I would say, a great millimeter print or a mediocre to millimeter print, but with colors that are a little bit more muted, I would say, than film.

Tom: So it's well worth seeing.

Tom: And the thing about Akira is one of the reasons, I think a lot of people look down on it these days is the way it treats the story and the characters.

Tom: Everything is not well detailed in terms of the plotting or character development.

Tom: But I think that adds to the film.

Tom: It allows it to be just an incredible build up of escalating action scene after action scene and the themes of the manga are in the anime.

Tom: They're just treated in a slightly more abstract manner, which I think is actually to its benefit.

Tom: It manages to convey, I think, more thematically of what the book was about than it would if it had been trying to focus on character beats instead.

Tom: You would have been able to, I think, implement less of the big themes in the book, if that was a bigger focus.

Phil: So this movie originally came out in

Phil: Is this a remaster?

Tom: Yes, the K remaster.

Phil: Sorry, I thought it was like a remake, like a re-release type.

Tom: No.

Tom: No.

Phil: It must look fantastic.

Tom: It looks incredible.

Tom: And it's a film that you should see in the cinema.

Tom: The other thing that is incredible about it, which again is one of the reasons having less of a focus on the story and the characters work so well, is the sound design and music is incredible.

Tom: The film is almost like one long musical montage.

Tom: And it's a fascinating mix of orchestral and synths and vocals in the background of most of the songs as well.

Tom: It's an amazing experience in the cinema.

Tom: We've got to talk about cinemas.

Tom: You were an avid cinema goer.

Tom: I won't say in your youth, but long enough ago that it should have been your youth if you were not so long in the tooth.

Phil: Yeah, I was an avid cinema goer in my twenties.

Phil: I think I saw every, I got to think of the years here.

Phil: I think I saw almost every cinematic release, probably from through

Tom: I don't think you can be more avid than seeing every cinematic release for five years.

Phil: Yeah, in the theater.

Phil: That was all in the theater.

Phil: If a new movie came out, I went and saw it because I had, as we've discussed before, I think there was something like nine movies within nine movie cinemas within probably, I'm going to say, eight minutes drive from where I lived in Southern California, and I had nothing to do and movies cost three bucks fifty to go and see if you went in the morning.

Phil: So yeah.

Tom: I think it's a very impressive record.

Tom: So I was just going to say that cinemas in recent times have obviously gone down.

Tom: Very few people go to cinemas anymore or so I thought, because apparently cinemas that show classic films, or are remastered films like this as well are packed, even if they're a multi-cinema venue.

Tom: So it's interesting.

Tom: And I think it's better to go to the cinema to see a great film than to see whatever the new film is.

Tom: Which is not to say that the new film might not be a great film, but it's suddenly a lot less likely.

Phil: If I could posit as to why that would be, and if there was a cinema close to me that played this sort of stuff, that would be fantastic, but there isn't.

Phil: But I think the reason why is because right now, like I'm watching the Bob Dylan bio flick on streaming, and I'm watching Oppenheimer at the same time on streaming.

Tom: Simultaneously?

Phil: Yeah, yeah, not at the same, not split screen.

Phil: I probably would if I could, but no, not split screen.

Tom: That might be the only way I'd watch them.

Phil: But like last night, I watched like, you know, minutes of the Dylan movie, and I'm enjoying it.

Phil: It's good enough.

Phil: It's not a very good film.

Phil: And then I go watch the Oppenheimer film, and it's slightly better, but, you know, it's nothing fantastic, and I'll watch it for minutes, and then I'll go watch Welcome to Wrexham for minutes, you know, and I think that by going to the cinema, you've got a singular thing that you're sitting there and watching.

Phil: You're not looking down at your phone, if you're following right etiquette.

Phil: You're not switching off to do something else.

Phil: You're not leaving halfway through, and obviously a movie is made to be digested in one sitting, and if you're watching it in minute chunks, it's not going to have the same impact.

Phil: You also have the sound system.

Phil: Yes, you can have great sound systems at home, but there's nothing like being in a theater and having that.

Tom: You can't have cinema acoustics at home unless you've got a mansion.

Phil: Exactly, that's right.

Phil: So, yeah, there's a lot of reasons to go to the movies, but content is not one of them, and as you said, if you've got a cinema around that's showing remasters or older movies that are classics, it's obviously going to be popular.

Tom: It's interesting though because it's only the last, I would say, probably since COVID, that it appears to have picked up because I remember going to shows of classic films in the past pre-COVID, and unless it was at the Aster and they were showing a film print, there was usually only a similar number of people that you would get at any sort of film or maybe a little bit more, but not a huge amount.

Tom: So it's something that appears to be a post-COVID phenomenon.

Phil: I think it's a post-COVID phenomenon, and I think also it's a dearth of quality, good new material in the cinemas, and I deal with the cinemas here in Australia.

Phil: I talk to them, and I'm quite connected with them, and they're having trouble, like the content that's coming out of Hollywood is not helping them at all.

Phil: And now that Marvel has crumbled, and Star Wars has crumbled, that was basically their bread and butter for the last decade, and now they're struggling.

Phil: But hey, this is a video and podcast, so unless you've got anything else on the movie front.

Tom: Not on the movie front, no.

Phil: Then let's switch over to the news.

Phil: We've got three stories up there.

Phil: Tom, you pick the one that is most interesting to you, and I'll blab on about it.

Tom: I think let's go with Darth Vader.

Phil: Yeah, this is a good one.

Phil: Yeah, well, SAG-AFTRA, the voice acting union.

Tom: I thought it was a Scandinavian, you were just mentioning SAG-AFTRA.

Phil: SAG-AFTRA has filed an unfair labor practice against EPIC over Fortnite's use of an AI voice for Darth Vader.

Phil: So immediately, if you're reading that headline, you go, well, this isn't right.

Phil: They're using an AI voice for Darth Vader.

Phil: Why?

Phil: You know, this is obviously a bad thing.

Phil: And the Union has basically struck a deal with the studios.

Phil: It said, hey, when we're going to use AI-generated voices, we're going to negotiate with you guys and talk to you.

Phil: So basically, it's not that simple.

Phil: So first of all, James Earl Jones' foundation or family owns the rights to James Earl Jones' voice.

Phil: And he passed away last year, of course, at age

Tom: But his voice lives on.

Phil: His voice lives on.

Phil: He's getting paid.

Phil: His family is getting paid for it.

Phil: And basically, they've put James Earl Jones through an AI mill for him to recreate the voices.

Phil: Now, SAG-AFRA's position is that, well, you could have just hired a James Earl Jones sound-alike, like what they've done in some of the animated series or what they've done in other games.

Phil: And then one of our union members would be getting paid, and that's what we want, right?

Phil: But instead, you've just used his voice.

Phil: But there, the thing about it is, though, this isn't just pre-recorded lines that they're using AI in.

Phil: You can actually interact with Darth Vader and ask him questions using voice chat in Fortnite, and he will respond to what you're asking him.

Phil: So this is generative AI on the fly.

Tom: So this is ChatGPT, Darth Vader.

Phil: Yes, but voiced.

Tom: Doesn't ChatGPT have a narration option?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I'm sure it does.

Phil: But the issue is, of course, obviously, because the Internet, it took about four seconds for people to make James L.

Phil: Jones scream the N word over and over and over again, say all sorts of inappropriate things.

Phil: And this was quashed, but not before everyone has recordings of Darth Vader being asked all sorts of questions.

Phil: And they can get around it by telling him to pronounce certain words.

Phil: But anyway, people are mucking around with it.

Phil: They are hilarious.

Phil: And I don't support hurtful speech.

Tom: But you do support comical speech.

Phil: I do support comical speech.

Phil: But anyway, so that's what's happened.

Phil: But that's separate to the whole thing.

Phil: And basically, Epic's argument is, well, this is generative content.

Phil: So what are we supposed to do?

Phil: Like hire Darth Vader, James L.

Phil: Jones impersonators, and have them sitting in voice chat, so that they can respond.

Tom: I like that idea, actually.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It would be fantastic.

Phil: A whole customer service booth in India, full of people talking like James L.

Tom: I think it's an amazing idea, actually.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But yeah.

Phil: So where do you land on this?

Phil: I mean, right, wrong, who?

Phil: I mean, besides the comical aspects of it, it is apparently very good and humorous.

Phil: And now basically, they've got James L.

Phil: Jones.

Phil: If he's asked anything that's slightly off kilter, he'll say, I do not see how this will benefit the Empire or whatever.

Phil: So yeah, it's a fun story.

Phil: But also, I just thought, I mean, who do you...

Phil: If you had to rule one way or the other, SAG-AFRA or EPIC, where would you come down on it?

Tom: I've got an alternative solution, which is force James Earl Jones' family into the Union.

Phil: How does that help?

Tom: Then they're Union members.

Tom: Then they're Union members who are getting the royalties.

Phil: Yeah, I guess.

Tom: Was the issue here not that we're not getting a SAG-AFRA employed Union member being paid for this role?

Phil: If you came down to the nuts and bolts of it, it's basically, we ain't getting paid, you know?

Tom: So if they're in the Union, they're paying their Union membership, it solves the problem.

Phil: Yeah, but what about this?

Phil: What about this SAG-AFRA?

Phil: Go away.

Phil: Our dad is dead, right?

Phil: We're not paying any more dues into SAG-AFRA.

Phil: It's none of your goddamn business.

Tom: But they're profiting from the estate.

Tom: I think James Earl Jones' copyright for his voice should have ended with his death if it should have existed in the first place.

Tom: So I think the best solution to this whole scenario is force his family into the Union if they don't join, send someone over with a tire iron to negotiate.

Tom: That's my solution.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: That seems fair to me.

Phil: But you know, also, just as you cannot slander a person who's dead because they're dead, did you know that, by the way?

Tom: It depends on who they are.

Phil: No, I'm just telling you, like, it's a fact of law.

Tom: Well, Elon Musk is alive.

Phil: He's still alive and just keep his name out of your mouth.

Phil: If you want to besmirch anyone, it's got to be James Earl Jones, Michael Jackson, the Queen, right?

Phil: But not Elon Musk.

Phil: And that's only because we don't want to, we're not slandering anyone on this podcast.

Phil: That's my only gut rule.

Tom: I've only ever stated facts about Elon Musk on the show.

Tom: Before we move on from AI though, you, I believe, in fact, did make an AI version of the podcast.

Phil: No, I don't think I did.

Tom: I think you did.

Phil: Well, actually, yeah, I did, actually.

Tom: And I did not receive any royalties from it.

Phil: No.

Tom: So you may also be receiving a visit from someone.

Phil: Well, when I start making money off it, I tell you what, I'll give you...

Tom: I demand royalties whether you make money or not.

Phil: % of the proceeds will go to Tom Towers Foundation.

Tom: But I bring that up because...

Phil: Well, hang on, just to explain to listeners.

Phil: So I've been in the process of transcribing all of our shows.

Phil: So about half of our shows have been transcribed now, so that if you search at the gameunder.net website, you'll find everything that you need to find about all the random stuff that we talk about.

Phil: And then I uploaded that to something called LM Notebook or Notebook LM, which is a Google product.

Phil: And it provided these perfect summaries of what we had said in text.

Phil: But you can also...

Tom: The summaries, I think the summaries were fascinating because I've seen AI summaries of such things before and they are usually pretty accurate.

Tom: But I've not seen them include subjective praise before.

Tom: The AI was going into detail about how hilarious we were, among other things.

Phil: Well, it was talking about our bio...

Phil: We talked about Ayn Rand and Bioshock.

Phil: As we usually do, we've just spliced, you know, things together.

Tom: It is an Ayn Rand podcast, after all.

Phil: Yeah, and I thought the summary was like, oh, wow, okay, yeah, that's like exactly what we were talking about.

Phil: And it totally got it, which is, of course, the whole point of AI interpretation of transcripts.

Phil: It does a really good job of it.

Phil: AI does lousy at a lot of things, like drawing people with the right number of fingers, but it, you know, it's really good at some other things.

Phil: So this open notebook, LM, whatever it's called, can also provide a podcast version of the notes, of the summary.

Phil: And so what did you think about that audio file?

Tom: The audio file I bring up because I'm fascinated by creative people's fear of AI, taking their creative work from them.

Tom: And I just do not comprehend what they are talking about.

Tom: And this is an example of that.

Tom: I think some of the subject matter bore some relationship to a Game Under Podcast episode.

Tom: But that was basically the full extent of any similarity there was.

Tom: It sounded a lot, however, a lot like mainstream podcasts, like the sort of podcasts that talk about serial killers, or crimes, or news-based shows, and other shows based on traditional journalism.

Tom: It sounded a lot like them, but it sounded nothing like a Game Under Podcast episode.

Tom: And I find the same thing to be generally true in terms of AI writing as well.

Tom: One thing I saw was that people in a study by, I've forgotten which university it was, could not tell the difference between AI-generated poetry and the poet was based on.

Tom: And I did the same tests, and the conclusion one can draw from that is that the people doing the test were completely illiterate, because the two bore essentially no similarity to each other whatsoever.

Phil: I completely agree because I've done the same thing.

Phil: And I can spot AI-text from a mile away.

Phil: And the show that we listened to that was basically repeating or summarizing our show sounded a lot like national public radio in the United States, or Radio National here in Australia.

Phil: It's just milk toast, boring, no intellect, no real emotion.

Phil: It was bland and milk toast.

Phil: And I think if you have a unique voice as an artist, you shouldn't be afraid of it.

Phil: I did some AI music, right?

Phil: So we've got a feature coming up in this episode called Talking About My Generation, but I didn't want to get a strike for using the song by, is that the Who?

Tom: Is it the Who?

Tom: I don't think it's the Who.

Phil: No, another band is called The Something.

Phil: And...

Tom: The Beatles?

Phil: No.

Phil: I went into, it's not The U

Phil: I went into one of these AI music generators and...

Tom: That is the Who, apparently.

Phil: It is the Who.

Phil: I need an eight second intro in the theme of talking about my generation by the Who, and it needs to use the words talking about my generation.

Phil: And it couldn't do it.

Phil: You know, it came back with a song, right?

Phil: Like, all right, well, this is kind of fun.

Phil: So then I said, well, I saw it was okay, but it wasn't doing what I needed to do.

Phil: So I said, all right, well, let's just write a song about my daughter.

Phil: Here's my daughter's name.

Phil: Here's her age.

Phil: Here's what her interests are.

Phil: And it came up with, you know, a fairly acceptable commercial song, but I wouldn't call it any, it wasn't a banger.

Phil: It wasn't like an earworm, you know.

Phil: So I think in terms of generating artistic content, AI is no good, but for summarizing content that already exists, it does a pretty good job.

Tom: Also for performing tasks as well.

Tom: The last thing before we move on from AI that I highly recommend people look up is AI doing things like solving the trolley problem.

Tom: And once again, on the topic of literacy, which I think is a big reason that AI, or lack thereof, lack of literacy rather, is one of the big reasons AI is seen to be so successful, is if you watch AI attempting to do things like solve a trolley problem.

Phil: Whoa, whoa, whoa, mate, mate, mate, trolley problem.

Tom: So the trolley problem is a classic philosophical question where a tram, we should call it a tram problem because we are in Australia, is going along a set of tracks and the tracks are about to fork or one set of tracks, there might be a person tied to the tracks.

Tom: On the other set of tracks, there might be two people tied to the tracks, and it's going to run over the two people.

Tom: You can pull a lever to divert the train onto the tram tracks, where the tram will only run over one person instead of two, should you pull the lever.

Tom: That's the tram problem essentially.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: So the AI will usually say, come up with an answer such as, I'll divert it to the tracks with one person because two lives are more valuable than one, as hard as it is for us to do this, so I'll pull the lever.

Tom: But it turns out that if you pull the lever, it runs over two people instead of one.

Tom: So it has, it's written something where it's re-describing the text that it has been given but not being able to actually understand anything.

Tom: The solution it's chosen is not in line with the action it wants to achieve.

Tom: And this is a very common problem in AI.

Tom: I think it's one of the terms for it is AI hallucination.

Tom: I can only assume that with how common this issue is, this has simply been missed because people are as illiterate as AI.

Tom: So they do not notice the error that AI is committing.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, I think you're right on that one.

Phil: Well, back to the video game news.

Phil: You want to pick a story?

Tom: I think I'll go with Randy Pitchford.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So Randy Pitchford, he's the basically founder, owner, CEO of Gearbox.

Phil: He's no longer the owner of it.

Phil: They're owned by someone else now.

Phil: Take Two, I think, eventually bought them.

Phil: And he was a fan tweeted to him.

Phil: The headline is $for Borderlands to cost leave.

Phil: This is from eurogamer.com, which is kind of a poor headline.

Phil: Because Borderlands has not been announced at $at all.

Phil: A fan merely tweeted at Randy, Randy, Borderlands better not be $

Phil: Don't take the risk.

Phil: A lot of gamers aren't going to pay $and feed this notion of constant increase of the price tag.

Phil: You're the CEO.

Phil: You have some say with the price when it comes to your publisher.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Now, if someone had tweeted you as the host of The Game Under Podcast, with that sort of tone, would you have responded?

Tom: I don't think we have a Twitter.

Phil: No, but I mean, would you have responded?

Tom: I think I would have.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: We still do have a Twitter, but we're not active on it.

Phil: So no, you wouldn't bother, because it's obviously someone who's trolling you, trying to get a response.

Tom: That's what you're meant to respond to on Twitter, though.

Tom: I'm pretty sure that's the whole point of Twitter.

Phil: Because he's got at least tens of millions of dollars and a quote, real life, I'm assuming, you wouldn't respond to it.

Phil: You just go, okay, there's a troll.

Phil: Keep going.

Phil: Or you wouldn't even be engaged with your social media, because you'd be having, that's something your secretary does for you, your social media person.

Phil: The social media person at Take Two takes care of all the individual CEOs' social media.

Phil: Right?

Phil: That's what I do.

Phil: I'm not dealing with this.

Phil: I've got enough to do.

Phil: So, Randy Pitchford, however, had a different approach and he actually respond.

Phil: He said, A, not my call.

Phil: Then he said, B, if you're a real fan, you'll find a way to make it happen.

Phil: My local game store had Star Flight for Sega Genesis for $in when I was just out of high school working minimum wage at an ice cream parlor in Pismo Beach, and I found a way to make it happen.

Tom: Now, this is how we know it wasn't his PR person that tweeted this.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: It is actually Randy Pitchford.

Tom: So what was minimum wage in ?

Phil:

Phil: So Pismo Beach is in California.

Phil: I was in California in

Phil: I was earning minimum wage in

Phil: It was $an hour.

Tom: So you would need to work hours.

Tom: Sorry, hours.

Tom: No, yeah, hours.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But that's not the point.

Phil: I mean, the point, I mean, would you tell me what the point of this is?

Tom: I think he's telling buyers out there to work hours so that they can afford Borderlands

Phil: I think so.

Phil: I think this is a let them meet Borderlands type comment.

Phil: It's just, you know, it's the only reason I brought this up as a news story because it's so unnecessary.

Phil: Like as a news story, this is so unnecessary.

Phil: He should never have responded.

Phil: There's no reason for him to respond to something like this.

Tom: I think the fact we're talking about it is a reason to respond.

Phil: Well, okay.

Phil: Now, do you think $for Borderlands is too expensive?

Tom: I think it is.

Phil: Borderlands is still like $USD on Steam, just so you know.

Phil: You know, would I pay $for the original Borderlands or Borderlands ?

Tom: But why should it cost more than Borderlands ?

Phil: Inflation.

Tom: Not everything needs to cost more over time, though.

Phil: Yeah, well, cost of living increases come every year.

Phil: Like here in Australia, we have a...

Phil: every year, everyone's wage goes up like % to take into consideration cost of living increases, for example.

Tom: But that does not mean by default something needs to cost more.

Tom: Some things go down in price over time.

Tom: If we were looking at this from an economic perspective of cost of production and supply and demand and all of these things that amount to too many things to make too much of a determination on, the fact that we're paying $US for a digital copy of a game doesn't make any sense in the first place.

Phil: No.

Phil: And this, especially with digital distribution, and this ties into the third and final story for this week, Doom Dark Ages' best launch in id history.

Phil: Credit to this one goes to VGCharts.

Phil: Publisher Bethesda Software and developer id Software has announced that Doom the Dark Ages has surpassed million and is its best and biggest launch in the history of id software.

Phil: They've said it basically has sold, you know, well million copies in like days.

Phil: It launched on PlayStation Xbox, PC and Game Pass.

Phil: So, you look at that and you go, you look at the history of id, right?

Phil: And you look at the games that have come before, you know, this game, which is at least Dooms, Doom games.

Phil: And this one has had the best launch in history, even though it's receiving good, but, you know, not uniformly good praise.

Phil: And we'll get into your impressions after this news story.

Phil: So, as troubled as the game industry appears with hardware and game pricing increasing and massive layoffs, you know, I think this indicates that, you know, the interest in gaming is in a better state than it's ever been before, just because of the massive people who are actually playing games.

Tom: I think the wording of the achievement is interesting.

Tom: Three million players as opposed to three million sales.

Tom: Perhaps it is the most successful solely because so many more people have game pass than when the second in the rebooted Doom series released.

Phil: Yeah, so best launch, yes, but best sales overall, we'll see.

Phil: Because also too, if you look at the mega hits of Yore, when they were released, this was the Dark Ages of distribution.

Phil: Doom was on floppy disk that was mailed to you.

Phil: They had an phone number, a toll-free number you could call and buy it, or you would get the demoed floppy.

Phil: You'd pay $to get the demo floppy, you'd pay the first three levels, and then you'd have to pay more to download it or have it sent to you, because it was shareware.

Phil: That was a great time.

Phil: But today, obviously, when a game launches, they can launch globally and through digital distribution.

Phil: Everyone can have the game immediately, preloaded on their system or their computer.

Phil: So I don't think this is so much an indication of how popular Doom Dark Ages is, but probably just more of the level of sophistication that game distribution has gotten to.

Phil: And you were talking about the cost.

Phil: Like, games have never cost less to distribute.

Phil: We've gone from cartridges, which were very expensive, you know, in the Nand before Euro, because you had to pay for RAM.

Phil: You had to pay for memory.

Phil: Or ROM, actually.

Phil: They were ROMs, right?

Phil: Read-only memory.

Phil: You had to pay for ROM memory, which actually cost something.

Phil: So if your game was bigger, if it had better graphics, it cost more.

Phil: Now, then it went to CD.

Phil: And so the cost went way down, because we didn't have to have ROM anymore.

Phil: You could just burn all the information to a CD or a DVD.

Phil: Now today, yes, we've gone back to the size of the program actually mattering.

Phil: So with digital distribution, it probably incrementally cost more to distribute a big game than a little game.

Phil: But still, it's way less than paying for ROM, paying for a CD, paying a company to make it, paying a printer to print the manuals, putting it into a plastic case made of petroleum, putting it into a ship that then takes it to another country, that puts it into a truck, that then drives it across that country, that then puts it into a retailer, who wants to make % on top of it all.

Phil: Obviously, distribution is way less than it's ever been.

Phil: So, you know, you look at, okay, charging bucks for a game, where does that come from?

Phil: You would say, well, if you look at the cost of production, you basically got what you paid the programmers to make the game, what you paid the artists to make the game, what you paid the advertising people to advertise the game, what you paid the administrators and the executives to manage all of these peoples and processes and make these important decisions.

Phil: Those are your costs.

Phil: Distribution is the least of the issue, but it can't possibly be dollars a game.

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: No way, no way.

Tom: But the good news is, you can work hard to make that money if you want.

Phil: You can work hard.

Phil: You can get a job as an ice cream boy at Pismo Beach, and if you want it, you can make it happen according, make it to Randy Pitchford.

Phil: Yeah, that's great.

Phil: Hopefully, he's generous with giving out some codes.

Phil: Maybe I should hit him up on Twitter since he's so responsive.

Phil: Okay, so we'll move into, oh, just one other thing that just hit the wire.

Phil: In Europe, Sony is slashing the prices of PlayStation and PlayStation Pro.

Phil: PlayStation standard just dropped by pounds.

Phil: So it's about bucks, Australian or US.

Phil: And the Pro is dropped by pounds, which is bucks in Australia and the US.

Phil: So-

Tom: Did you say the PSor PS?

Phil: PSsorry.

Phil: I have a bad habit of saying that.

Phil: So the PlayStation Pro is now pounds less in Europe, and the standard is pounds less ahead of days before the Switch launch.

Tom: So the Switch price is even worse than it already was.

Phil: Oh, for sure.

Phil: Yeah, for sure.

Phil: I mean, this is, you know, a pretty good value.

Phil: But even so, PlayStation Pro console in the UK cost pounds instead of pounds.

Phil: That's still a lot of money.

Phil: Okay, well, we've been talking about Doom the Dark Ages.

Phil: You've been playing it.

Phil: Have you-

Phil: How far have you gotten into it?

Phil: Have you beaten a game?

Tom: I've certainly not beaten the game.

Tom: I've beaten the first level.

Phil: Oh, well, that's something at least.

Phil: How big of a game is it?

Phil: First of all, just starting with that, you're playing it on Xbox Game Pass.

Phil: It's available everywhere, as we just said.

Phil: I got lots of questions for you.

Phil: But first of all, how big of a download is it?

Tom: I think it was under gigabytes, if I remember correctly.

Tom: I can tell you how much space it takes up on the disk.

Tom: It is, yeah, well under gigabytes.

Tom: It's gigabytes on the disk, so probably about a gigabyte download.

Phil: That's not too bad by modern standards.

Tom: By modern standards, it's extremely good.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: I think I uninstalled South of Midnight to download it, and I think South of Midnight was or or something like that.

Phil: Did you finish South of Midnight?

Tom: No, I didn't.

Phil: Okay, so I guess that wraps up our impressions of South of Midnight, it never launched.

Tom: It was a big install.

Tom: Will I get the Die of Destiny?

Phil: No, no, it's all right.

Phil: Let's go on.

Tom: I think I should get the Die of Destiny.

Tom: I'm going to give South of Midnight, and I'm just going to confirm the download size just for factuality here because I could be wrong.

Tom: Sorry, I was wrong.

Tom: It only requires gigabytes of space, so that changes a lot.

Tom: Let's see what the Die of Destiny has to say about South of Midnight.

Tom: Five out of ten.

Phil: Five out of ten, okay.

Tom: I think that's fair.

Tom: It's not a huge install by modern game standards, but gigabytes is still a couple of hours at bad internet speeds in Australia.

Phil: And that score, just so everyone knows, is not for the game.

Phil: It's just for the size of the download.

Tom: It's for the experience of downloading and installing South of Midnight.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: That, yeah, well, I can't disagree.

Phil: But back on to Doom, please.

Tom: Well, it's a slightly larger download, as I just said, but still not too bad.

Tom: Will I get the Die of Destiny again?

Phil: Yes, please.

Phil: Just roll on.

Tom: Gets a four out of ten, which I think is fair.

Tom: I think the Die of Destiny is spot on today.

Phil: Well, I think the bigger the download, the lower the score.

Phil: And I think actually we could probably shorten up these episodes instead of reviewing the games if we just reviewed and scored the download experience.

Tom: I think that would make for arguably a better show as well.

Phil: It probably would be faster.

Tom: It would certainly be faster.

Phil: Yeah, and you know, that's what the young kids want these days, is shorter content.

Phil: We could just put on TikTok.

Phil: Okay, I downloaded this.

Tom: TikTok download reviews.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: Yeah, downloads.

Phil: There's a way to get our downloads up.

Phil: Giving download reviews.

Tom: Perfect.

Phil: Back to Doom.

Tom: So the two things that, three things actually, that stood out at the beginning.

Tom: The first, which I think was probably the most interesting and piqued my interest the most was the setting.

Tom: It's called The Dark Ages.

Tom: And the setting has a more medieval rather than space-based feeling to it.

Tom: You're exploring churches and areas outside of castle-y sort of buildings.

Tom: The other thing which ties into this that stood out is it appears to be a lot more story-based.

Tom: It begins with a reasonably long introduction featuring some medieval-ly clothed characters and a witch as well.

Tom: And obviously, it is still science fiction, so there are spaceships flying around and a character who appears to be inspired by Jabba the Hutt as well.

Tom: And the introduction was reasonably long.

Tom: And as you are playing through the opening level, you encounter more cutscenes as well.

Tom: So it appears to be very much story-based and aiming to have a different sort of setting to the previous games in the series, which did have similar things, but it was limited to certain settings in the game.

Tom: And maybe as the game continues, that may be the case here as well, as I've only played the first level.

Tom: But given the name of the game, maybe this will be the focus for the setting.

Tom: The other thing that is pretty different to the previous two Dooms, which you may appreciate, is the gameplay is a lot slower and the movement is a lot heavier as well.

Tom: And something you might not actually appreciate is they've added a parry mechanic.

Tom: When enemies shoot particular attacks at you, their projectile will glow green.

Tom: And if you block it at the right time, you will shoot the projectile back at them, or rather deflect it back at them.

Tom: So that changes the gameplay up a little bit and adds, I think, I think it's a necessary addition because of how slow the combat is compared to the other games.

Tom: So obviously, if you're attempting to block projectiles, you're given something you have to react quickly to compared to the standard running around and shooting things, which is a lot slower than in the previous two games.

Phil: Well, the, I mean, like, Doom Eternal, I didn't like because of the platforming.

Phil: The prior Doom, Doom I had zero problems with.

Phil: I love the speed of it.

Tom: I thought you didn't like the combo complexity of Eternal.

Tom: So it was mainly just the platforming you didn't appreciate.

Phil: The platforming is not, yeah.

Phil: And also the lack of direction of the level design is what ultimately was the worst part of that game for me.

Phil: I just, if you're in a Doom game, you should know where you're going.

Phil: You should, you know, like, it was a, you know, a dungeon crawling game.

Phil: It was a corridor shooter is what they used to call them.

Phil: Like there's only one way to go.

Phil: And I didn't like this whole verticality.

Phil: I didn't like the verticality of Doom Eternal.

Tom: I think finding, exploring and finding secret things has always been a part of Doom.

Tom: I don't think you can describe Doom as a corridor shooter.

Tom: I don't think the classic Doom was a corridor shooter.

Tom: It always had branching pathways and areas you could explore that you didn't necessarily need to go to.

Phil: Yeah, that you could double back and wall hump and find things as well.

Tom: And I think I would also add it was always confusing to navigate as well.

Phil: Really?

Tom: I think so.

Phil: I didn't find it confusing.

Phil: Now, is this set on Earth?

Tom: I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

Phil: Well, because I'm asking because the Dark Ages, like, it's a part of our history.

Phil: It lasted like years on here on Earth, right?

Phil: Historians are arguing about it now because we call it the Dark Ages because there was no written history and it's hard to really know what was going on.

Phil: But also, like it was typically before.

Tom: I think we call it the Dark Ages because there weren't Romans around.

Phil: I was just thinking like, what a bummer, man.

Phil: Like years and you're just classified as the Dark Ages.

Phil: And then you have the Renaissance, which is like, oh yeah, ideas, ideas.

Phil: And then, you know, science in the th century.

Phil: I mean, what's this?

Phil: What is this?

Phil: Like, if you took the th century, that's distinct from the th century for sure, right?

Phil: Because we, that's where the technology started and the cars and all that.

Phil: Automation.

Tom: The cars started and automation started in the th century.

Tom: Automation started actually in the th century.

Phil: Yeah, fair enough.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Because, you know, the steam age and all that sort of thing.

Tom: That's the th century.

Tom: Automation started in the th century, the s.

Phil: Well, what's the earliest example of automation in the s?

Tom: The change to how things were produced with segmenting the production of things.

Phil: I thought Henry Ford started that in the th century.

Tom: No, he didn't.

Tom: He invented the modern factory form of that.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So who was doing it before that?

Tom: Everyone.

Tom: England began that in the late s and it spread throughout Europe.

Tom: Mid to late s, sorry.

Phil: So the current generation that we're in, would you classify us as being in that same generation still?

Tom: I think we're still in the same age as, yeah, I would say from the late s onwards, yes.

Phil: Yeah, I'd agree.

Phil: I'd say from the late s to now, nothing has really changed much.

Tom: What changes there are are not based on a change in the means of production.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: So like, if you took someone from, if you put me, what would be more difficult, putting me into or taking someone from and putting them into ?

Tom: I think logically, as long as that person has some knowledge of history, putting someone in the past should always be an easier thing than putting someone in the future, given they should have a minimum amount of knowledge of what they're being put into.

Phil: Right, because you just go back and go, okay, yeah, the toilets aren't great.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: But you could still go to a soccer match, right?

Phil: You could still go to a soccer match, you could still read the newspaper, you could still buy a loaf of bread.

Tom: It would be a very different sort of soccer match then though.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Tom: And you'd be participating in it if you went to it, probably.

Phil: Probably, because it was like hundreds of people just running down the street, getting kicked in the balls.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: So nothing much has changed.

Tom: That's why they called it football.

Phil: But if you brought someone from into here and they see a car, they'd probably have a heart attack if they saw a modern car or a modern airplane or any of that sort of thing.

Phil: But yeah, so we're still the same age.

Phil: So what do you think this age is going to be called?

Phil: Because it's been called the steam age, the industrial age, the space age, but it's not really an age when they called it the space age.

Phil: They basically meant the s and s.

Phil: It's like two decades.

Tom: Well, I think there are changes in how wealth is distributed.

Tom: So you could say we're in a different age today in terms of how wealth is distributed compared to in the past.

Tom: Or you could say we're in a different age since the late s in how quickly changes in wealth distribution occur.

Tom: Because since the late s, we've gone through several totally different ways to distribute and redistribute wealth in a period of only a little bit over years, years or so.

Phil: I've got a proposition.

Phil: What if we call the late s to today, I'm going to call it the Leisure Age.

Phil: Because I think for the Leisure Age, because for the first time in human history, we've, I'm going to address that in a second, but perhaps for the first time in Western civilization, we've now got the ability to have leisure time since the late s to today.

Tom: But pre s, we had more leisure time, so we've returned to a leisure time, you could say.

Phil: Right, and why I said we'll talk about that some more, because if you look at, I'm reading a book about the indigenous people of Australia, and yeah, there was hunting, there was gathering, but you know, like most of the time was leisure time.

Phil: You know, if certainly if you lived in the coastal community, you know, as long as you killed a kangaroo a day sort of thing, that would feed the whole tribe.

Phil: And or go catch some fish or, you know, kill a ducong or whatever.

Phil: And but most of the time was leisure, so.

Tom: Here's an alternative theory that I've just come up with on the spot.

Tom: Let's call from the mid to late s.

Tom: And obviously all of these theories apply solely to Europe and then the Americas.

Tom: Let's call that the capitalist era from, let's say to

Tom: Then from to the present day, and some people might say it doesn't apply to the present day, but if we're calling the present day the neoliberal era, but I don't think the neoliberal era has gone long enough for us to say that that is actually a change or not.

Tom: Let's call the era from the s to today as an era of duality, with the duality being communism and fascism, and those two things resulting in the opportunity for very rapid changes in economic systems on a mass scale, which has occurred numerous times in numerous ways since the First World War, and doesn't really have a precedent since probably arguably the beginning of empires.

Phil: Not bad, not bad.

Phil: I like the capitalist age.

Phil: I'd possibly suggest, and I'm happy to be wrong about this, that from the s on, we'd call it the War Age, because that's where you've had entire industries and political systems, basically.

Phil: Their oxygen is war.

Phil: Their oxygen is...

Tom: Well that's how fascism comes into it though, because one of the most important things for fascism is war, and using war to achieve economic goals as well.

Phil: Well, again, Video Game Podcast, we're talking about Doom the Dark Ages.

Phil: I think we've raised some good points here about what we would call this age.

Phil: If you want to let us know what you would call this age, and when it starts and finishes...

Tom: You could tweet it to us.

Phil: Yeah, well, don't tweet it to us.

Phil: Go to gameunder.net and put it in the comment section.

Phil: And also, as always, if you're using a modern video game podcast app, you can use our chapter markers to skip anything that you don't like, or go back and listen to something you do like a second time.

Tom: So I presume they will be skipping to the Doom Impressions for this sort of content.

Phil: Yeah, or the Leisure Age versus the Capitalist Age.

Tom: That is the Doom Impressions.

Phil: Yep, indeed.

Phil: So going back to the Capitalist Age...

Phil: Okay, I just want to hit some basics here, right?

Phil: Is this as good as Doom ?

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: I think I did not appreciate the slow down, the slower pace of the combat so far.

Tom: For me, it simply made it a bit less interesting.

Tom: It feels almost Halo-esque in its combat.

Tom: And also in terms of its storytelling as well.

Tom: That being said, I was enjoying the setting, and that intrigued me that I might be more likely to continue playing it than Doom Eternal.

Tom: My issue with Doom Eternal is simply that it was very enjoyable, but and this applies to the original Doom as well.

Tom: It was too much like the original Doom, that after playing the original Doom, I just felt like if I want to play Doom, I should just go back and play the original Doom or Doom or even Doom as they're simply vastly superior to the Doom reboot, as good as the Doom reboot is.

Phil: And obviously, yeah, the Doom reboot with the new music on Steam or on PC is absolutely fantastic.

Phil: Doom is fantastic as well.

Phil: Just hitting some of the high notes, music.

Tom: I think it's enjoyable, as enjoyable so far as it has been in the previous two games in the series.

Phil: Shield Mechanics, one of my favorite video games of all time is Urban Chaos Riot Response, because you could use a shield in Malay.

Phil: It was fantastic, because once you ran out of ammo, or if you're close enough to someone, you just smash your heads in with a shield.

Phil: Is this pleasing in this game?

Tom: I think it's pleasing, particularly with the parry, but I would rather not have the shield and have faster-paced combat, I would say.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: So what do you think this, why did they slow it down, do you think?

Tom: Maybe to reach a wider audience, and the second one did get a fair bit of criticism for being so complex and over-the-top, so maybe they were responding to that to some degree.

Phil: Yeah, well, they did have to dumb it down, because Doom's brand is, you know, dumb fun, speed, adrenaline, next thing, you know, always moving forward, and they complicated it by introducing Parry systems and all the rest of it, so they had to get away from that.

Phil: But I don't know if slowing it down is the answer.

Phil: Why just go back to Doom ?

Tom: I should add, though, it is only the first level, so it could be that as you go out of what is essentially an extended tutorial, it does pick up in pace.

Phil: Graphically, on the PC?

Tom: Graphically looks good.

Tom: A little bit more, probably a little bit more detailed than Doom Eternal, I would say.

Phil: Did it challenge your aging PC?

Tom: No, it did not.

Phil: Oh, fantastic.

Phil: Well, you know, small down load.

Tom: I think it actually ran better than Doom Eternal did.

Phil: I've heard that the PC version is much preferred over the PlayStation version.

Phil: I haven't heard any reports about the Xbox version.

Tom: So unless you have any other questions, I think that probably covers it for Doom.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, I'm really interested in it.

Phil: I'd love for you to continue with it.

Phil: I don't have Game Pass, I should probably look into that.

Phil: But we'll get there.

Phil: We'll get there.

Tom: You probably need to get reasonable Internet before you consider Game Pass though.

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

Phil: That's true.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, other games, have you finished Clair Obscure?

Tom: I've not finished Clair Obscure yet, no, but I can probably talk a little bit more about it.

Phil: Well, if you want to, or we can hold those off until you finish the game.

Phil: But if there's anything of note that you want to mention here.

Tom: I think we may as well talk about it because in the previous episode, I think you found my impressions to be too positive.

Tom: So I think it's time to talk about some of the negatives.

Phil: So, as a percentage of the game or hours into the game, just to give our listeners some perspective, like where are you now in the game?

Phil: How far are you into it?

Phil: What's changed since the last time?

Phil: How far were you into it the last time we spoke?

Tom: I think last time I was probably almost halfway through it.

Tom: Now I'm maybe about percent or so.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: So nearly two-thirds in, I would say.

Tom: I think the first thing I have to bring up that is a huge negative is, and it might seem like it's not important, but given it's inspired by JRPGs, I think it is important, and that is the minigames and side content related to minigames.

Tom: Now, the Final Fantasy series, for example, has a great history of excellent minigames, from brilliant card games to the hilarious, yet enjoyable minigames in Final Fantasy at the Casino.

Tom: So, if you're inspired by JRPGs and you got to put minigames in, and you are achieving, achieving what you want to achieve everywhere else in the game, you want to nail the minigames as well, but alas...

Phil: And let's not forget Blitzball.

Tom: Absolutely.

Tom: I think that was my favorite.

Tom: I probably spent to hours playing Blitzball.

Phil: And because this is a French game, it's actually J'Apare...

Phil: J'RPG.

Phil: J'RPG.

Phil: Not J-RPG.

Phil: You got to put an apostrophe in there.

Tom: J'Apare-du.

Tom: No, that's an actor.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: Yeah, he's in trouble too.

Phil: He's...

Tom: That was a long time coming, I believe.

Phil: He's back in court.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Long time coming.

Phil: No pun intended.

Phil: So, yeah.

Phil: So, anyway, back to Clair Obscure.

Tom: So, the mini games are...

Tom: There are two main ones.

Tom: One of them is platforming, which is not a good idea.

Tom: Not a good idea at all.

Tom: Um, it is manageable, but it is just awkward and unsatisfying.

Tom: And worse than that, one of the platforming segments, the challenge in it isn't any of the platforming.

Tom: It's simply the fact that it goes on for like five fucking minutes with no checkpoint.

Tom: And if you fall at any point, you have to start all over again.

Tom: Um, another one is a volleyball game where you have to parry, uh, launched enemies at you back at your opponent.

Tom: And it's awkward.

Tom: And worse than that, the final level of it, they zoom out a lot for some reason.

Tom: So all the others, it's awkward, but you can see what's going on pretty well.

Tom: The last one, for some inexplicable reason, they zoom the camera out.

Tom: So not only is it fucking awkward, you also can not easily see what the fuck you're doing.

Tom: It's just a bizarre decision.

Tom: And if they had not changed the fucking camera angle, which there is no need for them to do, it would not be so infuriatingly annoying.

Phil: I mean, that's gotta be just an oversight, right?

Tom: It's a bizarre decision.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: It can't be a decision.

Phil: It's just gotta be an oversight.

Tom: Maybe they zoomed out to try and make it more dramatic, perhaps?

Phil: Mm, possibly.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: That's all I can think of.

Phil: Or there was some...

Phil: We never know.

Phil: You know, there could have been some sort of glitch and...

Tom: But so the mini games are unfortunately pretty terrible.

Tom: The only other negative I can think of, which could be handled better, is at the camp.

Tom: I think I mentioned it before.

Tom: You are talking to the characters, the other characters in the party.

Tom: Um, and in these segments, the way the dialogue is handled is a little bit awkward.

Tom: Um, some of them are more fleshed out than others.

Tom: Like, there'll be a back and forth.

Tom: Um, it's usually voice acted for the most part.

Tom: But then at the end, um, there will be a bit of a summary where it's like the two characters went on to talk about this and that.

Tom: Um, for the segments where there's a proceeding conversation, um, that is of a reasonable length, it develops the character in a satisfying way.

Tom: Some of them, there'll just be a few lines of dialogue.

Tom: Then there'll be this expositional thing following it, which is basically just a description of the conversation where you might have wanted to actually experience the conversation for yourself.

Tom: So those can sometimes be a bit of a chore to get through when you need to get through them to increase the character relationships with each other, which unlocks special moves.

Tom: So those are two things that I think, um, the mini games I think is a major thing, that's more of just a minor annoyance.

Phil: Are the mini, are the mini games, are the mini games optional though?

Tom: Yep, they are optional.

Tom: But again, in a, in a Depardieu game, you want the mini games, yep.

Tom: You want the, Gérard Depardieu, sorry, game, you want the mini games to be enjoyable and engrossing.

Phil: Otherwise, leave them out.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah, leave them out, you know.

Tom: And you, and you need to play them to unlock the characters, bikinis and, um, jodpers.

Tom: So it's, it's an important thing because you want your characters to be half naked.

Tom: It is a Gérard Depardieu after all.

Phil: Now we understand why this was an essential part of your, uh, of your gaming experience.

Phil: Oh, God.

Phil: Speaking of, oh no, we'll get, we'll get to that another day.

Phil: Um, so, okay, well, any other impressions at this point of, uh, Clair Obscure?

Tom: Uh, the only other thing I would add, so we can end on a positive note, is, um, I've now unlocked all the characters, and, um, with the exception of a character that is there, to, um, back up the role of another character, uh, if I can say that without spoiling much, who has a similar skill set, the, or every single character in the game has, um, a totally different way of being played, which is very impressive indeed.

Phil: All right, well, I look forward to your final impressions of Clair Obscure on our next episode, or later.

Phil: I'm not here to assign homework, so...

Tom: At this rate, it will probably be several episodes in the future.

Phil: Oh, come on!

Phil: Finish it up.

Phil: Let's get, uh, get it done.

Tom: Well, it depends, it depends on how long the platforming and volleyball takes me.

Phil: Okay, well, now I've got a new feature, which means, of course, I've got a new stinger.

Phil: So here's our stinger.

Phil: And that's right, we're talking about my generation.

Phil: Of course, we're talking about video games, so that means my generation of consoles.

Phil: So I basically thought it'd be interesting for both of us to talk about what was your preference in each console generation.

Phil: Do you think we should...

Tom: Which generation did you have in mind?

Phil: Well, do you think we should...

Phil: No, generation like, like, you know, the PSversus Xbox.

Tom: Well, that's what I mean.

Tom: Which console generation did you have in mind?

Phil: Well, we're going to do this chronologically.

Phil: This is going to be one...

Phil: We can't do them all tonight.

Phil: So do you want to do it, like, start from now and then work back?

Phil: Or do you want to start from the beginning and work forward?

Tom: I think start from the beginning and work forward.

Tom: You know, actually, that's how most people would do it, isn't it?

Tom: Let's do it in reverse chronological order.

Phil: I think so.

Phil: Yeah, because the other thing is, you missed the first years of my life, so you're going to be like, no, no, no, no, no, until we get to N

Tom: That'll be a solo Phil Fogg episode.

Phil: Yeah, a monologue.

Phil: The funny, one of the podcasts I listen to is Bill Burr, who's a comedian, right?

Phil: And he has a podcast, he has two podcasts a week that go for three hours long.

Phil: And he is a self-trained drummer.

Phil: He's a comedian.

Phil: He's also got a helicopter license, okay?

Phil: So the guy's not dumb.

Phil: Like he's able to, he's capable of learning things.

Phil: But he comes off, he likes to say, you know, he's got blue collar roots and all this sort of stuff.

Phil: He was talking about words, right?

Phil: And a word came up.

Phil: Yeah, what the, what the f**k does that mean?

Phil: You know, it's like soliloquy.

Phil: What does that mean?

Phil: And I'm like, okay, dude, you're seriously saying soliloquy.

Phil: What does that mean?

Phil: I mean, when you host two podcasts a week that are three hours long each with no guests, he cannot be serious or he's a comedian.

Tom: Well, he may not soliloquize, as long as he knows what monologue means.

Tom: I think he can get away with it.

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

Phil: Okay, so what were the current generation?

Phil: Well, the current generation is Switch, PlayStation and Xbox S series and PC.

Phil: So, what was your lead way of playing games between the Switch, PlayStation Xbox X and S or PC?

Tom: PC, unless I'm on a plane, then it's the Switch.

Phil: Okay, so PC and that obviously encompassed VR usage as well?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: You bought a Quest is that right?

Tom: So, my main VR gaming was probably directly on the Quest

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But we're now out to the Quest I think, so that would be a generation behind now.

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

Phil: But, you know, that is a part of the PC type thing.

Phil: As for me, in the current gen, I was buying absolutely everything I could on the Switch.

Phil: Indie games, no matter what, because it was portable, because it was hand held, it was fantastic.

Phil: But then when I upgraded my gaming PC and then bought a Steam Deck, that obviously obviated the need for a Switch.

Phil: So, yeah, for me, this current generation has been PC.

Phil: Now, that one ended pretty short, so let's go back.

Phil: Now, well, actually, why?

Tom: Shouldn't we expand on why?

Phil: Yeah, why?

Phil: Why?

Phil: Why did you not go out and buy a PlayStation ?

Phil: Why did you not buy an Xbox?

Phil: What Xboxes have you bought in the past?

Phil: What PlayStations have you bought in the past?

Tom: I think there's absolutely no reason to buy a PlayStation or an Xbox without a PC.

Tom: The only reason to is yet to come, and that is Grand Theft Auto

Tom: Other than that, there's no reason to at all.

Tom: There are good reasons to buy a Switch, hence I have actually two Switches, not only one.

Phil: One for each hand, obviously.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Then what are the good reasons to own a Switch?

Tom: I think the Nintendo games as well as Indie games because it is portable, so I think it offers a good alternative to playing on PC.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Or at least I thought it did until I very rarely used it.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I would say until the Steam Deck, I would be a Switch PC player.

Phil: Playing games even on my gaming PC is difficult because I've got to share TV time because it is hooked up to my TV and I have very limited leisure time despite my prior...

Tom: Despite living in the leisure age.

Phil: Leisure age.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So for me, the Switch was paramount because you got the Nintendo content, you got the Indie content, it was portable, it was dockable, it was a perfect system.

Phil: But I'd say the downside of it is no discounts.

Phil: Like, you know, now I got plenty of money, that's not a problem, but it's the point of it, right?

Phil: If I can go on Steam and get it for $but Nintendo is still charging, you know, $for an Indie game, what's the point there?

Phil: And with the Steam Deck, I was able to bring over my large library of Steam games and have them instantly available.

Phil: So that's what's made the Switch a harder thing.

Phil: If the Steam Deck had never been released in Australia, I would be a day one Switch owner because of the portable factor, because of the dockable factor.

Phil: So that's why I chose Switch early in the generation.

Phil: Now, you've had limited Xbox ownership in the past, right?

Tom: All I've got is the original Xbox.

Phil: Right, and I've bought every Xbox up until the current gen.

Phil: And in PlayStation, you've bought everything up through PlayStation right?

Tom: Until the PS

Tom: I should add, though, actually, one of the reasons that added to not buying more consoles, which the Switch was a good example of why that was a good decision, and I perhaps should not have bought a Switch, is the reason I stopped buying Xboxes at the original Xbox was the terrible hardware of the Xbox

Tom: And buying more PlayStations, I was also put off because I've had two PlayStation s and two PlayStation s, and I've now also had two Switches because of the battery in the original Switch I had very quickly.

Tom: It still functions, luckily, which allowed me to easily change what my primary console was after that ridiculous update.

Tom: But it does, it's not usable as a portable.

Tom: The battery will only last a very short period of time.

Tom: And the OLED Switch which I replaced it with, the screen got scratched very easily as well.

Tom: So why the fuck would I want to be buying these consoles which have horrendously bad manufacturing quality when I can make a PC that I know will be well put together because I've done that myself.

Tom: So as long as I'm purchasing parts that are from a manufacturer who is releasing reasonable quality parts, it's not going to fucking die and make me buy a several hundred dollar thing that should last.

Tom: I mean, it has the only moving parts in it are fans.

Tom: So it should last a reasonable period of time yet does not.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: And the other thing is, is if a part fails in your PC, you can replace it without having to throw away the whole PC.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: If something breaks in my Steam Deck or breaks in my Switch, I'm pretty confident on Steam Deck side because they're so open, that there's probably stuff, the solutions there.

Phil: But on the Switch side or the Xbox side or the PlayStation side, yeah, like we've been abused as consumers, right?

Phil: You buy a console, it breaks, you can't fix it, you know, you can upgrade hardware and all the rest of it.

Phil: But yeah, I get where you-

Tom: And there's no excuse for them to break so easily either.

Phil: No.

Phil: Okay, so back to me now, right?

Phil: So on the Xbox side, why didn't I get an Xbox this time?

Phil: Not compelling, as I've said many times before, they early advertised that it would be backward compatible with every Xbox game ever made.

Phil: I would have purchased five of them on day one because I have a fantastic and large collection of original Xbox, Xbox games and Xbox One games.

Phil: That turned out to be a lie, right?

Phil: So there's no reason for me to buy it because I can play all of those games on Game Pass or on PC.

Phil: They don't have any exclusives anymore.

Phil: I mean, the best, I think the five best-selling games on PlayStation right now are published by Microsoft, which leads me to why I didn't get a PlayStation.

Phil: I'm a Sony fanboy, right?

Phil: Anything that's Sony, I will buy, right?

Phil: I've still got my Walkmans from the s that are fantastic.

Phil: And I love Sony, I love everything they do.

Phil: But there hasn't been any compelling content, and the compelling content they have requires me to download more than what I'm able to download here in Australia.

Phil: So it's just not, those two platforms have not been viable for me for this generation.

Phil: Now come a game like Grand Theft Auto if they were to release Uncharted with some sort of compelling reason, I'm kind of tired of Last of Us.

Phil: They've released a fantastic Ratchet and Clank game, they've released a fantastic Astrobot game, but besides that, the content has been lacking.

Phil: And it just hasn't been viable to spend, you know, essentially a thousand bucks on a system that I'm really going to use, and that my family doesn't see any interest in using.

Phil: So this generation, that's where I've been.

Phil: Now, you've owned every PlayStation up through PlayStation

Phil: Why didn't you get a PlayStation ?

Tom: I think the reason I said before is really two things.

Tom: One is bad experiences with PlayStation hardware over the PSand PSgenerations.

Tom: Bearing in mind again, the PlayStation I've got the original version of that, which is meant to be the unreliable crap version of the PlayStation

Phil: It's great.

Tom: But it's meant to be, and it's still working.

Tom: Meanwhile, I went through two PlayStation s and two PlayStation s.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: So, if I'm being sold a console that is between $to $I don't want to have to rebuy that thing at any point in the future, or at least not for years or something like that.

Tom: I think years is the minimum reasonable length of time for something like that to last.

Phil: If you spent $on a Sony, quote, hi-fi, right?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: That will last infinitely.

Phil: It will last probably years, right?

Phil: Because it will be a fantastic audio system.

Phil: If you buy a Sony television for $it will last you more than years and you'll only get rid of it because after years, it's going to be too small compared to the competition.

Phil: Why are we buying consoles for $that fail after three years?

Phil: It's ridiculous.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Don't get me started, but maybe it's because these fantastic Sony things that I have in my house that have lasted a billion years were made in Japan and now Sony things aren't made in Japan.

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: I think it is they know gamers will rebuy them.

Tom: I think it's as simple as that.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's cynical.

Phil: It is cynical.

Phil: Well, we've run out of time.

Phil: We're going to put Minecraft into another show.

Phil: We'll pick up talking about My Generation next episode, but I do want to thank you for listening.

Tom: Before we finish, I do have to bring up a new episode.

Phil: Well, I brought up Trademark Banter.

Phil: Do you have any more Trademark Banter?

Tom: Well, we've got to end on Trademark Banter.

Tom: This is the Trademark Banter episode.

Tom: So we've talked about going to see films in person.

Tom: We're going to move on to seeing music in person with our final instalment of Trademark Banter for the episode.

Tom: A couple of months ago, or a few months ago, it went for several months.

Tom: So let's say several months ago in Melbourne at Federation Square, the Victorian government had a series of free concerts that they were putting on.

Phil: That's nice.

Tom: And one of the bands or, they're not really a band, they're a rap group.

Tom: One of the acts they had performed during this series is an Irish rap group called Northern Irish Rap Group.

Tom: So a British rap group called Kneecap.

Phil: Oh, Kneecap.

Phil: Yeah, they're quite controversial because they're on the British news, because they basically incite people to commit violence and murder against British politicians.

Tom: As they should as Irish Republicans.

Phil: Well, that's, yeah, okay.

Tom: But that's not the reason why they're in trouble there.

Tom: One of them has been charged with terrorism because they had a Hezbollah flag at one of their concerts.

Phil: What does a Hezbollah flag look like?

Tom: I think it looks like a flag, I would presume.

Phil: Well, yeah, I know what a flag looks like, but like what colours does it have?

Tom: It's a piece of cloth, usually.

Tom: Maybe, I'm googling it now.

Phil: Well, you're googling it.

Phil: Okay, well, you're getting on a list.

Phil: Because like, I know Al-Qaeda.

Tom: It's a yellow flag with a green background.

Phil: Cowards.

Phil: Oh, Australia.

Tom: There's Arabic writing, there's a hand holding an AK-

Phil: Oh, good.

Tom: And there's a globe on it as well.

Phil: Oh, well.

Tom: It's actually a pretty good flag.

Tom: Well.

Tom: If I had access to a Hezbollah flag, I would display it as well.

Phil: Look, I think any flag that has clip art on it is disqualified as being a good flag.

Phil: Give me a good three-band color like the French flag.

Phil: You know, that's fine.

Phil: UK.

Phil: I mean, nothing beats the UK's flag, except perhaps the United States flag.

Tom: There's a version of it where the fist appears to be coming out of an explosion.

Phil: Oh, Hezbollah.

Tom: We've got, I think, the cover art for this episode of the show here.

Phil: No, we do not.

Phil: So now, is Hezbollah like a real movement or is it like a CIA front?

Tom: I think it surely had received CIA funding at some point, you would presume.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Now, why is kneecap a bunch of Irishmen?

Tom: Well, here's the insane thing, right?

Tom: I could not believe.

Tom: I can only assume, again, this is a Victorian government funded series of concerts.

Phil: Of course it is.

Tom: In Victoria, if you have any pro-Palestine statements, any government funding things you previously had access to, you get kicked off the moment you make any pro-Palestine statements or it's discovered you are pro-Palestine.

Tom: Well, that's supposed to be me.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: Well, that's the case.

Tom: Historically, anyway, at least since October the th, but also before then, it was very difficult to get any government funding if you made known that you were pro-Palestine publicly.

Phil: However, now that the Labour government has been re-elected.

Tom: I don't think that will change.

Tom: The Victorian Labour has been in power in Victoria perhaps all my lifetime almost.

Tom: Let's see how long.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Tom: One decade apparently.

Phil: Oh.

Tom: So a little under a third of my lifetime that has been Labour.

Tom: So that's been Labour policy is you're not meant to be government funded if you are vocally pro-Palestine.

Tom: So I assumed, here's the thing, right?

Tom: They were at the concert.

Tom: They had a Palestine flag.

Tom: They were singing.

Tom: The whole crowd was chanting, Maggie Thatcher is in a box.

Tom: Get your Brits out.

Tom: All of these sorts of things.

Phil: That's terrible.

Tom: It was a beautiful thing.

Tom: It was beautiful.

Phil: You know, Margaret Thatcher was not a bad person.

Phil: I mean, it's terrible.

Tom: I think Margaret Thatcher was a very bad person.

Phil: How so?

Tom: I think generally the defunding of welfare, That's a myth.

Tom: the warmongering.

Tom: I don't think that's a myth.

Phil: The warmongering is just part of doing business.

Tom: How is that a myth?

Phil: She didn't defund welfare.

Tom: She objectively defunded welfare.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: In what way didn't she?

Phil: She didn't.

Tom: In terms of sheer numbers or policy?

Phil: In terms of policy.

Tom: I think in terms of sheer numbers, you could make the argument she didn't.

Phil: Yes, but you know.

Tom: But in terms of policy, I don't think you can.

Phil: All right.

Phil: We'll keep going.

Phil: So I just can't believe-

Tom: You can't make this statement without expanding on it.

Tom: I want to hear.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: Let me get my head around this.

Tom: You're telling me I'm wrong.

Tom: I want to understand why I'm wrong.

Phil: I think she was a reasonably nice person.

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: She made some modest cuts.

Phil: It didn't affect anyone.

Tom: So she did make cuts.

Phil: Well, the cuts are always needed, aren't they?

Tom: If you're making modest cuts, by definition, isn't that defunding something?

Tom: I'm not saying she defunded something to the point of totally removing any funds.

Phil: No, no.

Tom: So she did make cuts.

Phil: She empowered...

Tom: She made cuts.

Tom: She introduced our anti-union laws.

Phil: She empowered private industry so they could contribute more taxes for the ne'er-do-wells.

Phil: Hey, but let me get my head around this.

Tom: You saw a kneecap perform life.

Tom: Sounds like she's a terrible person to me.

Phil: You saw a kneecap perform life.

Tom: That's amazing.

Tom: At a government-funded thing.

Phil: Well, this is why your government needs to be cut, but-

Tom: I'm bringing it up now because I was wondering.

Tom: There's two explanations for this.

Tom: Either kneecap is, what's the term for it?

Tom: Agent provocateur and funded opposition, or they just didn't do any due diligence and had no idea who the fuck they were.

Tom: I'm now leaning towards the latter, given that they have been charged with terrorism offences in the UK.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: This is just clueless programming.

Tom: So it was a beautiful thing to see Irish Republican, mainly drug-themed, rap group performing at a government-funded, free concert at Federation Square.

Phil: I was listening to some of their music this morning, and it sounds very poppy.

Phil: It sounds very-

Tom: I think it's very de Antwoord influenced.

Phil: What is that?

Tom: De Antwoord.

Phil: And what's that?

Tom: That's the Dutch, not Dutch, sorry.

Tom: That's the South African rap group that used, then weren't the first group to use techno in rap, but they were probably outside of UK acts, the biggest and most successful.

Tom: But UK rap has a long history of using techno in grime, for example, and also using garage as well.

Phil: Up until this morning, until I heard their music, I was a fan of kneecap.

Phil: I thought, well, okay, freedom of speech.

Phil: You know, they're just doing stuff.

Phil: It's a speech, sticks and stones, you know, like, who cares?

Phil: And I didn't, I didn't, I thought at worst that maybe they're being provocative for public relations and increase their downloads and stuff like that, which they probably are.

Phil: It's all commercial.

Phil: But when I actually heard their music this morning, I was like, this isn't, this isn't rap.

Phil: This isn't, I thought they were going to be like punk or death metal or something like that.

Tom: But this is UK rap.

Tom: Like I said, using, using techno as your beats has a long history in UK rap.

Phil: It does.

Phil: It does.

Tom: This is, this is, this is not like an American, if it was an American group doing this.

Phil: If it was an American group doing this, it just sounds like AI, you know.

Phil: And so I, I lost respect for them because I thought that they were perhaps the, the second, you know, coming of Dead Kennedys or something like that.

Tom: I think, I think their punk, their punk content is authentic.

Tom: And I think their music is, I think it's a good example of UK techno themed rap.

Tom: And the, but one thing that did make me lose respect for them, or at least their fans, and I don't know if this is an Irish thing, but they had a mosh going.

Tom: So it was a proper, even though it was a free concert at Federation Square, it was a proper intense crowd.

Tom: But the Irish people there wouldn't let anyone who wanted to push their way to their front or swim through the crowd to get where they wanted to be.

Tom: They wouldn't let people through.

Tom: They were like, f**k off, we got here before you, we can stand at the front.

Tom: And my mind was blown.

Tom: What the f**k?

Phil: No, no, no.

Tom: That is, I just could not believe it, but we do know that people in Britain are meant to be obsessed with queuing, so maybe it is a thing there.

Tom: You could have a mosh pit, but you got to arrive two hours early to be allowed in the mosh pit.

Tom: Otherwise, get to the back of the line, you f**k.

Phil: Yeah, well, I went to a Grateful Dead concert in Orange County, California.

Phil: Orange County is where Richard Nixon is from.

Phil: It's probably up until recently, the most conservative county in California.

Phil: If you want to see some weird s**t, go to a Grateful Dead show in Irvine, California.

Phil: It's like two things just, it's like an explosion of, well, it's polarity.

Phil: It's like a positive and negative.

Tom: It's the duality of man.

Phil: Yeah, polarity, polarity, not duality.

Tom: The polarity of man.

Phil: Thanks for listening to this trademark banter.

Tom: We're going to call the era from the s to the polarised era, the polarity era, the polar era.

Tom: That's the one we're looking for, the polar era.

Phil: Thanks for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since or so.

Phil: There's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website at gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question or comment, and I can't imagine anyone listening to this to this point that wouldn't want to submit a comment, just go to our homepage and type it in there.

Phil: You don't have to register or anything.

Phil: It's completely anonymous.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Tom: If you're not in the UK, possibly America, and you don't mind missing out on Victorian government funding, make sure you Google the Hezbollah flag.

Tom: Also add Deutsche Villa to it and the date, the th of the th, to see one of the most hilarious and beautiful flags you'll ever come across.

Phil: And this is where you say, I'm Tom Towers, so I can edit all of that out.

Phil: I can just insert it from another episode if you want.

Tom: No comment.

Game Under Podcast 171

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:07 Intro

0:00:57 Shuei Yoshida Saved Gran Turismo

0:03:56 GTA6 Delay and Implications

0:14:32 XB Price Hikes

0:19:09 Clair Obscure: Expedition 33

0:49:57 Case of the Golden Idol Final Impressions

0:54:36 Spoilers for Golden Idol

0:58:30 Spoiler End

0:58:51 Mice Maze Impressions

1:02:14 Early Access - Good or Bad?

1:03:42 E-mail

In this episode we discuss the latest video game news including the Xbox price hikes, delayed launch of GTA6 and the implications and an interesting story about how former Sony Head of Global Studio jokingly stated that he "saved" Gran Turismo. We then give impressions of the hottest game of the moment Clair Obscure: Expedition 33. Phil gives impressions of Mice Maze a new bullet heaven roguelite as well as closing his impressions on Case of the Golde Idol Finally we answer a listener's question about boats. It's fascinating.

Thanks for listening.

Transcript
Tom: Hello and welcome to Episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers, and today I'm joined by Craig.

Phil: No, it's Phil, Phil Fogg.

Phil: Thank you everyone for coming.

Phil: You sound a little bit different though.

Tom: You sound like a Craig.

Phil: No, no, nothing's different.

Phil: I can assure you that there's been no change in equipment or in my health status.

Phil: This is a normal show with normal equipment, and I am in my normal body.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: That's my position.

Phil: But what you haven't misheard is some news.

Phil: We'll get straight into it because we got a lot to talk about this episode.

Phil: The story, obviously, everyone's been talking about it.

Phil: I know there's probably very few details that haven't been examined in this story.

Phil: But we'll go over it anyway because it's a pretty big one.

Phil: And that is Shuei Yoshida saved Gran Turismo.

Phil: And credit to this one comes from PlayStation France.

Phil: Now, regular listeners, including yourself, will remember who Shuei Yoshida was.

Phil: He was the head of Global Studios for Sony for a long time.

Phil: And then they pushed him out of that job.

Phil: And basically, I think they put him in charge of indie development for a while.

Phil: And then finally he got sick of it and left.

Tom: So does that mean this is the end of Gran Turismo if he's no longer there?

Phil: Well, let's find out the story.

Phil: It was in the early days of the first PlayStation.

Phil: And Kazunori Yamauchi was working on the very first Gran Turismo.

Phil: You know him.

Phil: You remember that on the cover, it said that the game was a real driving simulator.

Phil: And this is Shuei Yoshida talking.

Phil: And you know, I'm not a game designer.

Phil: I'm a producer first and foremost.

Phil: During development, Yamauchi showed me a prototype of Gran Turismo.

Phil: And I was among the first to play it.

Phil: And to tell you the truth, he was really serious when he talked about it being a simulation.

Phil: It was extremely advanced, perhaps too much too much too so.

Phil: But at first, Cas didn't take my feedback at face value.

Phil: So he gathered about consumers to test the game.

Phil: And as I expected, they all crashed without exception at the first turn because the game was so difficult.

Phil: I was at the back of the room with Cas, at which point he turned to me and said, you're right.

Phil: And that's when he rounded things off and toned down the pure simulation aspect a little to put out the Gran Turismo you know and love today on PlayStation

Phil: In a way, I like to think I was partly, I partly saved Gran Turismo's fate and that I played a small part in its success.

Tom: Did he save it or ruin it?

Tom: Maybe the pure sim version was a lot better.

Phil: Well, well, the consumers and Shuei said no.

Tom: The consumers didn't say it was bad.

Tom: They merely crashed at the first corner.

Phil: Yeah, maybe they like that.

Tom: I'm starting to think perhaps the fix was the famous bumper car physics, where if you drive into a corner, it doesn't really matter.

Tom: So maybe that was the change that occurred.

Phil: Well, it did dumb down Gran Turismo to a degree because I mean, I know that I used other cars as basically buffers to keep me from going into walls.

Phil: You know what I'm saying?

Phil: But I don't know, is that a part of racing?

Phil: It's certainly not.

Phil: I don't think that's a main part of racing.

Phil: I don't think you go out there deciding you're going to use other cars to stop you from going into walls.

Tom: Not in the way you do in Gran Turismo anyway.

Phil: Has it changed much over the years?

Tom: I think that's still an element of it.

Tom: But in the online multiplayer, you get penalized if you hit people.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I guess there were soft penalties for it if you were worried about...

Phil: Well, there was definitely penalties for it in the game.

Phil: I mean, in terms of where you place and stuff like that.

Phil: But I did lean on that a fair bit.

Phil: Anyway, we'll go on to story number two.

Phil: That is, Grand Theft Auto has been delayed into

Tom: Did anyone really think it was coming out this year?

Phil: Well, they would have good reason to think it was coming out this year.

Phil: In November, GTA's publisher insisted the game would arrive in autumn insisted despite whispers of a delay.

Phil: And it doubled down upon that just a few months back in February.

Phil: Just a month ago, and then a month ago, Take-Two boss Strauss Selnick said the publisher was keeping the GTAdate close to its chest to maintain the anticipation and the excitement.

Phil: So they weren't backing off.

Phil: And I think at the time he was talking about that, it was in a shareholder type meeting type things, where they can't really lie or stretch the truth.

Phil: So a lot of people thought it was coming out.

Phil: Reporting since this has happened, indicate from people on the inside at Rockstar that no one at Rockstar in the development group had any expectation that it would be coming out this year.

Tom: I'm pretty sure you can lie at a shareholder meeting even if it's illegal.

Phil: Yeah, you probably can.

Tom: I don't think that's in enforced regulation in any way, shape or form.

Phil: Well, I know for sure that you can't mislead shareholders in those formal communications.

Phil: You can't say, oh, I think we're going to make a lot of money next quarter when you have no basis for it, you know.

Tom: But you can believe that something you're making is going to be finished before it's made, I think.

Tom: There's plausible liability here.

Tom: Is there not?

Phil: Possibly.

Phil: But in discovery, they'd go through emails and all of that sort of thing as well.

Phil: But anyway, I don't think any shareholder is going to be wanting to hand in their take to stock before the release of Grand Theft Auto

Phil: In conjunction with this announcement, they released the second trailer.

Phil: Up until now, they'd only released one trailer back in December

Phil: This was the first good look at the game.

Phil: I, for one, I was impressed with it.

Phil: It looks fantastic.

Phil: It looks Grand Theft Auto.

Phil: It looks like a dumb video game, which I was concerned that they were going to take it in a different direction.

Phil: Perhaps they have, but for right now, it just looks like a video game as video game.

Tom: I think like with Grand Theft Auto they're definitely leading into a more HBO style of storytelling than in previous Grand Theft Autos.

Tom: That part of it, I think, is a little bit more than just a video game as video game.

Tom: But it's in line with what the series has already done.

Phil: What do you think of the trailer?

Tom: I think it looked good.

Tom: It at least has its own atmosphere, so it's clearly not going to be just like Grand Theft Auto in Miami.

Tom: So it's good to see that the setting will hopefully be interesting and a new experience even if it is a return to Vice City.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I thought the action looked good.

Phil: I thought that there was flashes of some gameplay elements in there, and I think the driving components of it looked insane.

Tom: I think the characters also seem like they may be, but there's not much to go on, but just the brief glimpse of them we had, they seem like that might be more interesting than the characters in Gran Turismo with the exception of Trevor.

Phil: That's exactly what I thought you were going to say, and I agree.

Phil: They do look more interesting than just some rumors, that it may not all be as this story rumors about it, or people are putting forward their theories as to there might be more than meets the eye that is going to be than what you see in that trailer, which is obvious.

Phil: I mean, that's drama, right?

Phil: They want to make you think one way and then they go the other way.

Phil: I thought it was fun.

Phil: One of the theories out there is that dude is actually an undercover cop.

Phil: As opposed to just getting the old gang back together and breaking some laws, that he might be either a double agent or just an undercover cop.

Phil: That would be a nice twist in the story.

Phil: But yeah, it's got me excited about it.

Phil: One thing I'm not excited about is it's not coming to PC in the immediate future.

Phil: Also, it will obviously launch on Xbox.

Phil: But PlayStation Pro would be the optimal way to play this game at launch.

Tom: Wouldn't PlayStation be, or the Xbox, whichever the better one is, be the optimal way to play it?

Tom: Isn't it a PlayStation game, surely?

Phil: I'm sorry.

Phil: If I said PlayStation I meant PlayStation

Phil: PlayStation Pro would be the optimal way to play.

Phil: Yeah, the PlayStation Pro is significantly better than the Xbox X.

Tom: So can we say that this is the first killer app of this generation?

Phil: Nintendo's had some killer apps this generation.

Phil: But I guess if you look to it, yeah, but they're the-

Tom: Nintendo's on their own generation, schedule vote.

Phil: Yeah, you just said exactly.

Phil: All they do is killer apps.

Phil: That's of course, exaggeration.

Phil: But yeah, this is definitely the first killer app of the PlayStation era.

Tom: I was about to say it's taken five years to get a killer app for this generation, but it's going to be six years, actually.

Phil: It'll be six years, and people are now saying, well, maybe this is a sign towards a -year console cycle for these guys this time around, which is interesting.

Phil: So good news, bad news.

Phil: I mean, this is great news for publishers, other publishers.

Phil: EA boss Andrew Wilson previously said that the company was willing to delay its next Battlefield game to steer clear of GTA

Phil: So obviously, there's going to be some games that are finished or about to be finished that were going to be held that can now come out.

Phil: It's obviously very disruptive.

Phil: I mean, people have plans in place.

Phil: So it's not like they can rush them ahead.

Phil: But a whole months now of a free space to bring it out.

Phil: It's very good news for the Nintendo, I'd say, is a winner out of this.

Phil: Because it makes Switch doesn't take anything away from the Switch

Phil: Certainly, if you're going out and buying Grand Theft Auto that's a lot of reasons to not be quick to get a Switch

Phil: Can you think of any other winners and losers out of this?

Tom: I think Rockstar is a winner out of it.

Tom: I think they actually need some time to build up hype.

Tom: Because within the GTA world, people are anxious to get it.

Tom: But I feel like within the broader world, it's been out of the headlines for too long, which is why I think they've delayed it.

Phil: A couple of ads during some NBA games fixes that.

Phil: But again, who's watching ads in NBA games too?

Tom: I think they've usually had a longer hype build up that hasn't been as intermittent as well, particularly when it's coming close to the launch.

Phil: Yeah, we did a very long show a long time ago on the GTA series going through the history of it.

Phil: And this was in preparation of the, of a, it was actually in response to a trailer release for Grand Theft Auto V, which tells you how long ago that was.

Phil: And so yeah, there definitely was a longer hype on this one.

Phil: But at the same time, this game has been in development since

Phil: And yeah, they haven't released a lot of information about it.

Phil: They've certainly kept it all under their hat.

Tom: And I don't have anything to say on rock textures in the trailer, but I do on forearm textures.

Tom: The skin textures in the game with the hairs just look pretty incredible.

Phil: Yeah, I think it all looks amazing.

Phil: I mean, would I buy a PlayStation Pro just for this game?

Phil: I think it'd be pretty stupid to do it.

Phil: But if there's other reasons to do it, like if Blu-ray is still around, I'll probably need another Blu-ray player by that time.

Phil: Who knows?

Tom: Are there any other reasons that a PSPro, can you think of any?

Phil: The Astro game, the Astro platformer, which is another reason to own a PlayStation

Phil: Gran Turismo stuff, definitely would be interesting, but it's not really my bag anymore.

Tom: So you only really got two games for a $console.

Phil: Off the top of my head.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So it would make my purchase of a Neo Geo cartridge AES look sensible.

Phil: So, but yeah, I think another loser out of this is obviously Sony.

Phil: I mean, they would have loved to have had these sales in this year, as opposed to next year.

Phil: But yeah, I think that's pretty much all of it.

Phil: I'm looking, I'm excited by it.

Phil: It's definitely going to have some FOMO if I don't have a PlayStation when that comes out.

Phil: Because the PC is not going to be like a year later.

Phil: It's because they're still raking in the money with GTAonline.

Phil: So they get to basically take their time with the PC side of things because they're still going to be making money off of that.

Phil: They can have GTAout there, have it in the sun doing whatever it's going to do, and they've got five online in the back pocket.

Phil: So yeah, they're in a great position.

Phil: Who's not in a great position is consumers as we go on to our third and final story.

Phil: Microsoft raises the price of all Xbox Series consoles.

Phil: Xbox games are confirmed to hit $USD this holiday.

Tom: Were they $or $?

Phil: $

Tom: So they've already gone up?

Phil: Yeah, they've already gone up.

Phil: They've been on $for about two years now, at least.

Phil: So the story says, the company said it will be raising prices on Xbox consoles, controllers, headsets, and some games.

Phil: The price hike for consoles and accessory kicks in immediately, while game prices will stay the same for now.

Phil: We should expect to see Xbox charging $for new first party games around the holiday season.

Phil: Price increases are taking effect globally, with the exception of headset prices, which are only going up in the US and Canada.

Phil: So some people are saying this is all because of the Trump tariffs.

Phil: Well, no, because it's going up in Australia as well.

Phil: So for example, in Australia right now, the new price for a terabyte Black Galaxy special edition will be $

Phil: That's currently at $

Phil: So that's only going up by $

Phil: However, the Xbox Sis going to be $and it's currently $

Phil: So that's an increase of $basically.

Tom: So I wonder if what actually has caused this is the ridiculous price of the Switch

Phil: Well, I think that that's certainly to blame for the $prices.

Phil: Basically, Nintendo has stuck its neck out, and Microsoft is going, well, if people complain, we can always put it Game Pass and go, well, hey, Game Pass right there for you.

Phil: If you don't like the price of our $games, you know, they might think it even will promote Game Pass some more because they can say, look at the tremendous value you're getting from Game Pass.

Phil: On the hardware side of things, I'm not going to blame tariffs on it because the whole damn country, the whole world is getting hit with these increases.

Phil: Some people are saying that they are so far behind Sony in the hardware race, that they've basically said, well, screw it.

Phil: We're not going to lose money on these consoles anymore.

Phil: We're going to sell them at cost.

Phil: And the hardcore people that want to buy a console can do so because, you know, they've also done their Everything is an Xbox campaign.

Phil: Their quote said, we understand that these changes are challenging.

Phil: They were made with very careful consideration given market conditions and the rising cost of development.

Phil: Something we were talking about last episode.

Phil: Looking ahead, we continue to focus on offering more ways to play more games across any screen and ensuring value for Xbox players.

Phil: So we continue to focus on offering more ways to play more games across any screen.

Phil: So they're basically saying what I just said there, which was, if you don't like this, go out and get whatever else we've told you is an Xbox.

Phil: Get a Samsung TV or whatever, you know?

Phil: But yeah, people are saying that this hobby is getting more and more expensive and more and more exclusive.

Phil: Could you argue with that?

Tom: Yes and no.

Tom: It's getting more expensive than it was before, but I do remember around the year that a new game here in Australia cost $

Tom: So when you take into account inflation means games were way, way, way more expensive back then.

Phil: Oh, for sure.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And we've been giving a soft touch here in Australia, really.

Phil: I mean, people would hear us saying, oh, yeah, we pay $$for games, but I don't think very many people actually do pay that.

Phil: I think people who just barge into a JB Hi-Fi or a Harvey Norman and want to buy a new PlayStation they might buy three or four games for $but gamers won't pay that.

Phil: We just wait until they drop in price.

Tom: Probably the only people doing that are people buying games as presents for people who don't know about game prices.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And Microsoft is right to claim that Game Pass is a great value for consumers.

Phil: In fact, you've been using it recently, as many people are enjoying great games like South of Midnight and Clair Obscure Expedition

Phil: Is that right?

Tom: That's correct.

Tom: So I've mainly been playing Clair Obscure Expedition though.

Tom: I started South of Midnight, but I think I should get a little bit more into it before I give impressions as Clair Obscure Expedition took my attention away from it.

Phil: Well, it's blowing up.

Phil: I mean, fans of the genre are saying that it's their favorite game of the year and one of their favorite RPGs in a long time.

Phil: It's developed by a company called Sandfall Interactive and published by a developer I had not heard of, which is something I say a lot these days, Kepler Interactive.

Phil: And this is a turn-based RPG, is that right?

Tom: It's a turn-based RPG in theory.

Tom: I think it ends up playing more like an action RPG.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, why don't you just tell us about the gameplay, the setting, tell us everything.

Phil: It's getting a lot of heat.

Phil: A lot of people are saying game of the year.

Tom: Well, the main hook of the gameplay is that they essentially add QTEs to the combat in terms of you being able to dodge or parry every attack by an enemy and also increase the power of your attacks by timing a small QTE where you just have to press one button at the right time, which is reminiscent of Legend of Dragoon, which was a JRPG for the PlayStation that also, I don't think it had a dodge or parry mechanic, but when you attacked, if you succeeded in performing a short QTE, your attack power was boosted.

Tom: I think there was also a less advanced version of that in Final Fantasy as well.

Tom: It's something that has been done before, but this is definitely building on it compared to previous games, and the timing for the attacks is pretty simple and easy, but the timing for the dodges and parries, particularly the parries, is very precise.

Tom: So if you are performing a parry and you time it perfectly, then your characters will perform a counterattack.

Tom: If it's a single attack, the enemy does.

Tom: If it's multiple attacks at once, the enemy does, you have to parry every single attack.

Tom: When you're dodging, if you time it as well as you do, as well as you would have to parry, then you perform what is called a perfect dodge.

Tom: If you have a pick toss, which is a buffing item, or a Lumina, which is another way to buff your character, that allows you to gain AP, which is action points, which is basically the points you spend on performing skills in your turn, then you'll gain an extra action point.

Tom: It's usually better to try and get parries, but if you're learning the attack pattern and timing for an attack of an enemy, then you might want to do dodges while you're learning that before you get the exact point to be able to get a perfect dodge or parry.

Phil: Do you dig it?

Phil: I mean, I typically don't like parrying in a game.

Tom: I enjoy parrying in games.

Tom: I love Bayonetta and other beat-em-ups, so I think parrying works well in games when done well.

Tom: Certainly, dodging does.

Phil: Is it done well here?

Tom: It's done extremely well.

Tom: Like I said, it feels more like an action RPG, not because of the combat is turn-based, not because of the dodging and so on, but because of the amount of combat in the game.

Tom: It's structurally more in line with an action RPG.

Tom: You do explore an overworld and go to visit towns, not just dungeons, but for example, the first town you visit after the opening of the game, the main thing you do in this town is compete in a tournament.

Tom: So it is extremely combat-heavy, I would say more than most JRPGs.

Tom: There's a lot of optional combat you can do as well, which is very challenging if you're playing on hard or even normal.

Tom: So it's, I think, more like an action RPG than it is a JRPG, which is what it's inspired by, that is, JRPG in the sense of a turn-based RPG.

Tom: Even though there are structurally in terms of the overworld and dungeons and towns, many similarities to that, you are engaged in combat more than you are in most JRPGs.

Phil: Well, I'm a bit confused because, like what you're describing, like the quick time event-heavy combat, which is similar to, say, Bayonetta.

Tom: Well, it's similar to Bayonetta dodging.

Tom: It's not really similar in any other way because you're not moving around in it and you're only input in terms of attacks.

Tom: You're not performing combos or anything like that.

Tom: You're selecting what your character is meant to do and then just pressing a button at the correct time.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, yeah, okay.

Phil: So, yeah, I've seen that in a few games before, but the point is it's done well.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: And when I'm saying it's like an action RPG, it's like an action RPG just in the amount of combat there is and the focus on it.

Tom: Not in terms of the actual combat.

Phil: I was confused by that.

Phil: You say the amount of combat, but a turn-based RPG, when I think about old school Final Fantasies, like where you can't walk three feet before each battle.

Tom: But they will have extensive town scenarios where you're just going around talking to people, and not engaging in combat.

Tom: Whereas there are town scenarios here, but they are much briefer than they are in a traditional JRPG.

Phil: You said there's an overworld.

Phil: Is it like in the old school Final Fantasies one through?

Tom: Very much so.

Tom: You're basically a giant running around a natural environment from area to area.

Tom: There are also enemies to fight in these areas as well.

Tom: You got to unlock certain things to be able to explore further than you're able to at the beginning.

Phil: That sounds cool.

Tom: Definitely.

Tom: Before I move on from the combat, I mentioned pictos and luminers.

Tom: I've got to talk a little bit more about them because I think the best thing about the combat isn't the dodging and QTEs for attacks, although that does make things very satisfying.

Tom: The best thing about the combat is the ridiculous ways you can build the characters.

Tom: You've got standard stats like your speed, which determines when you take your turn and how often you can have a turn, attack power, health, defense, all of those things.

Tom: But weapons and luck, which affects your crit chance, but weapons scale based on random base stats.

Tom: You might have a weapon where the attack power is determined by vitality, which is your health and luck, for example.

Tom: You can build a character using that weapon who has a ridiculous amount of health, yet has a incredibly high crit chance and does a huge amount of damage despite having a very low attack level.

Tom: There's a lot of freedom to come up with really interesting character builds.

Tom: In addition to that, the way skills work with characters is hugely different between the characters.

Tom: Characters have totally different play styles to each other and require a unique way of playing, which once again makes the combat really interesting and interesting in different ways as you're developing the characters and learning how to combine their skills.

Tom: You can also combine different character skills to go with other characters.

Tom: So for example, one of the characters, a lot of her skills, you can build around catching enemies on fire.

Tom: And rather than using her skill points in the battle on catching enemies on fire, you can have another character who catches enemies on fire.

Tom: So the damage she does is multiplied by characters being on fire and things like that.

Tom: So you can come up with great combinations between using different characters.

Tom: In addition to that, which is absolutely hilarious, there are pictos which give you bonuses for playing only with a single character.

Tom: So what I'm doing is one of the characters, her special skills, which are unlike other characters, is she has different stances in combat, which are enabled by different skills she performs and different status effects.

Tom: One of them gives her plus percent damage.

Tom: I found a weapon that enables that stance at the beginning of a battle.

Tom: I have her by herself and with several pictos that massively buff her damage if she is by herself.

Tom: She essentially is capable of doing percent damage of her normal attack power at the beginning of every battle if she's by herself.

Tom: So if she does not manage to kill the enemy in one or a few turns, depending on the number of enemies or somehow even dies, then when your party gets killed, you then get to substitute in whatever other characters you have.

Tom: So at the moment, I got four characters and the maximum amount you can have is three in a party.

Tom: So my default party is just her and when she dies, then what would be the normal party gets substituted in, which is hilarious and goes to show the ridiculous amount of options you have in how you want to approach the combat in the game, which is, I think, to a greater degree of depth than many, many turn-based RPGs.

Tom: That certainly allows for a lot more creative expression.

Phil: So if I'm listening to this and I'm thinking, wow, this sounds really complicated and difficult to get my head around, what would you say?

Tom: I don't think it's that complicated.

Tom: It will take a little bit of time to learn what you're doing, but it won't matter that you're learning early on because the difficulty gradually increases after a tough opening.

Tom: If you're playing on hard anyway, it plateaus a little bit once the characters have leveled up, and then the difficulty gradually increases.

Tom: The main thing you've got to be learning at that point is how to combine the pictos and lumenas so that your characters have enough action points or buffs to be able to do a lot of damage.

Tom: The other advantage is again, the fact that you can theoretically dodge or parry every single attack.

Tom: If you get good at parrying and dodging, then there's a reasonable amount of leeway in the combat, because you can avoid taking a lot of damage.

Phil: You talked about the character creation component being so important or being an integral part of how you engage in combat.

Phil: Can you re-spec or once you've created that character at the start of the game, is that it?

Tom: No, you can re-spec.

Tom: You can get, I think, they're called recoat items and you use them and you can redo all of your skills and all of your stats as well.

Phil: Is it permadeath?

Tom: Permadeath, as in for the characters?

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: There's permadeath related to the story, but not in terms of dying in battle.

Phil: Because I was thinking about Suikoden, where you've got characters and you develop all these characters, but then they all have permadeath, which makes it such an emotional type of game.

Phil: Because once you lose a character, you lose a character and you talked about a character dying and then someone else comes in.

Phil: That's where I was curious.

Phil: Is that when you say that character dies, does that mean that's it for them?

Tom: No, they end up with one health after the battle, if your other characters end up beating that enemy.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: It's not like you're recreating new people throughout the game.

Phil: No.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, it sounds complicated, but it also seems to me that from the amount of praise it's getting for what you've said, it's sort of intuitive and you sort of learn it as you go sort of thing, and there's low stakes at the beginning while you're still learning.

Tom: Yeah, definitely.

Tom: The last thing on the combat is the creativity applies to the enemies as well.

Tom: There was one element of combat I forgot to include, which was there's also all of the characters have a projectile attack that uses up one skill point if you use it, and certain enemies have a weak point, where if you shoot it will do a lot of damage to them or even cause something to explode, damaging other enemies.

Tom: And enemies will also buff themselves, including giving themselves shields.

Tom: And a shield, they can give themselves multiple shields, so they might give themselves five shield points to, and every single attack you do while they have a shield does zero damage.

Tom: So it's a good idea then to have at least one character who has buffed up attacks, who can use the projectile attack to hit the enemy who's shielded themselves, hopefully catching them on fire or debuffing them or something along those lines.

Tom: So there's yet another wrinkle to the combat, which makes it interesting.

Tom: And as you can tell from enemies being able to shield themselves, and some enemies having weak points or orbs or something that's protecting them that can explode, the creativity also applies to the enemies you're fighting, not just your own characters.

Phil: Any more about the combat system?

Tom: I think that probably covers the combat system.

Tom: But the other thing that stands out about the game is definitely the setting and the conceit of the narrative, which I am sure I have come across in another game, but I can't put my finger on what game it is.

Tom: So the game opens with you taking part in a festival known as the Gommage, I think.

Tom: And there's this number that you can see on an island in the distance, which I think is

Tom: And every year, the Panteles paints a new number, which is one less, so it's about to change from

Tom: And when it changes from to everyone who is age disintegrates and dies.

Tom: And you're setting out on an expedition to go to the island, to try and stop the Panteles from painting any new numbers and decreasing the age at which everyone dies even further.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, I mean, you could be talking about Persona

Phil: Persona had like a mysterious phenomenon called the Dark Hour, where the team was working towards an impending disaster before time ran out.

Phil: Or is it more specific, like a countdown type thing?

Phil: Like Legend of Zelda, Majora's Mask.

Tom: Was there something similar to this in Nier?

Phil: I'm not sure.

Phil: I know Dead Rising had a time, you know, it was a time limit.

Phil: And Danganronpa did.

Phil: Crazy Taxi had a time limit.

Tom: Probably Crazy Taxi, I'm thinking of.

Phil: That's probably what you're thinking of.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: This does have a soundtrack by Green Day, right?

Tom: Crazy Taxi or Nier Automata?

Tom: Sorry, Clair Obscure.

Phil: Clair Obscure, yeah.

Tom: Don't think so, unfortunately.

Tom: No offspring either.

Phil: We won't talk about the music yet.

Phil: Usually, you're all over poo-pooing story in video games.

Phil: You sound like this is good?

Tom: I think it's a great concept and it's a very French narrative and French sense of humor.

Tom: It reminds me a lot, which isn't surprising given it's inspired by JRPGs.

Tom: It reminds me a lot of the French or Franco-Belgian.

Tom: It's not just French comics, but Belgian ones as well, heavily inspired by manga.

Tom: Just as an example of the French humor, the second town you visit after the first one is, of course, full of savages but highly stylized, so that you wouldn't think that's what they are and get offended.

Tom: But it's very clearly inspired by discovering an island of savages, essentially, who are a little bit stupid.

Phil: Okay, so now I'm starting to believe the hype because you're telling me the combat, the unique combat system actually works well.

Phil: And obviously this game has to be developed by someone who's worked on this stuff before.

Phil: This cannot be like their first effort in this field.

Phil: And you're telling me that the story is good as well.

Tom: I think they're former Ubisoft devs, aren't they?

Phil: Yeah, I would assume so.

Phil: I mean, I really don't know.

Phil: But like with the story telling, are the characters as good as the compelling story?

Tom: Well, I think the conceit is definitely the best part of the story without any question.

Tom: But the characters are sincerely and earnestly written enough that the story continues to be engaging after the opening, which the rest of the game was probably never going to be able to live up to.

Tom: The other thing I would add related to the narrative is the setting is consistently engrossing, and without needing to do much in terms of developing the story is aesthetically interesting enough throughout and interesting to explore.

Tom: All the dungeons have optional enemies you can fight, hidden items, and things like that, and they're all thus far anyway beautifully designed.

Tom: But the setting really carries it and remains as interesting as the opening conceit is.

Tom: This is definitely something that I think is a defining characteristic of French games.

Tom: If I think of most French indie games anyway, I don't know about Ubisoft games, but it would apply to large ones as well though, because that's certainly true of Beyond Good and Evil as well.

Tom: Beyond Good and Evil, for example, the story just taken as a story isn't particularly interesting, but the characters are interesting and entertaining throughout, and the setting is really rich and engaging.

Tom: That's definitely the case here.

Tom: Other games have come to mind, Remember Me, Life is Strange, and A Plague Tale.

Tom: I think it's something the French do very, very well, which again, I think comes from their tradition of more serious comic books.

Phil: That's Plague Tale.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: That's putting it into a pretty good category.

Phil: Let's putting it up on a high shelf there.

Tom: Well, the gameplay is a lot better than a Plague Tale, I would say.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You paid $for this game.

Tom: So far, I pay $a month, right?

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Tom: So we'll see how many months I take to finish it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's $if you want to buy it on Steam in Australian dollars.

Phil: So I think it's a $game elsewhere.

Phil: I couldn't be sure about that, but it sounds-

Tom: $if you want to buy it on the Xbox app.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: In Australia.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So visually, how does it look?

Tom: It looks excellent.

Phil: Like what style?

Phil: For a listener that hasn't seen a screenshot of this or anything like that, what style does it look like a modern Final Fantasy game, for example?

Phil: Does it have a distinctive art style or is it just-

Tom: It's got a very distinctive art style.

Tom: So it starts off in basically a French Belle Epoque style, sorry, a Belle Epoque rendering of a place like Paris.

Tom: And once you leave that, you end up in a variety of different fantasy worlds.

Tom: So far, there's been various different forest style dungeons, a cave-based dungeon, an underwater dungeon.

Tom: And the outfits of characters range from style clothing to Edwardian to futuristic, retro-futuristic style clothing as well.

Phil: When is the game set?

Phil: Is it set like in year or something like that?

Tom: I would say it's in, I don't know what year it's set in, but the aesthetic of it is definitely inspired by the late s and early s, which is aesthetically rich time for France without any question.

Tom: And the dungeons, which is a great contrast to the opening era area, are also very surreal.

Tom: You come across gigantic enemies that you can often see in the distance before you get to them and things like that.

Tom: So it's a very surreal experience.

Tom: Another thing that I think is great about it, but I've seen it be criticized for, which I think would massively take away from the atmosphere of the game, is when you're exploring the dungeons in the world, you're not given many directions.

Tom: They do have a way of directing you towards the main story parts of dungeons.

Tom: But due to the surrealness, they managed to work it into the esthetics, so it isn't annoying like the ridiculously painted jumping points in Uncharted or shit like that.

Tom: As in Mirror's Edge, they find a way to aesthetically make work, which is if you're going the correct direction to just do the main stuff in a dungeon, you'll be coming across lamps.

Tom: But outside of that, you're not really given much direction.

Tom: You don't even have a journal, which gives you reminders on what your objectives are.

Tom: And I think that adds to the exploration in the game, and exploring it and going in the wrong direction and finding random stuff is very much one of the most enjoyable things about the game.

Tom: So huge credit to them for having the conviction to not be constantly holding your hand and constantly directing you in the quote correct end quote direction in an intrusive manner.

Phil: Let's get some famous people in it, like Andy Serkis.

Phil: Did you hear him?

Phil: Did you find him?

Tom: It does, but you cannot play this game in English.

Tom: You have got to put it in French.

Tom: One, the atmosphere of the game is incredibly French, but two, the sense of humor is very French.

Tom: I think it doesn't come across as well with the English cast, which is the originally recorded audio when they do the motion capturing as well.

Tom: The correct way in that sense is to play it in English, but the atmosphere demands that you play the dub instead.

Phil: Sorry.

Phil: When you were talking about the costume design, it brought to mind an original Xbox game called Phantom Dust.

Phil: I'm not sure if you're familiar with it.

Phil: It was a real-time strategy action game developed by, I forget who is famous, who was involved with that.

Phil: I thought someone famous was involved with that, but it's very distinctive, almost a punk aesthetic, futuristic but also of the s as well.

Phil: Obviously, this game has a distinctive art style, stunning visuals.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: Is there anything bad about the game?

Tom: So far, I would say, I don't know about anything bad.

Tom: There isn't really anything that bothered me about it so far.

Tom: So far, I have nothing to complain about on any meaningful level.

Phil: I've never heard you say that before in my life about a video game.

Tom: I think that there are games that are s that I've somehow denoted as s, so I think there must be previous instances of this.

Tom: I would not say this is so far as good as the best games I've ever played.

Phil: It sounds like a rarity to me.

Phil: I'm sorry that it's $but I should probably take the plunge and get it for PC.

Phil: I haven't checked if it's Steam Deck compatible or what level of Steam Deck compatibility it is, but because of the visual stuff, I probably want to play it on a big screen anyway.

Tom: I think you can play it on Steam Deck.

Tom: I think people have managed to get to FPS on Steam Deck.

Tom: So by your standards, it should be playable.

Phil: Yeah, by my standards, exactly.

Phil: Anything else to say about this game?

Phil: You're not going to give it a score because how far into it do you think you are?

Phil: Because this is like a -hour game, I think.

Tom: I think I'm about halfway.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Are you playing it daily?

Tom: There's one thing I can complain about it actually, which is the optimization.

Tom: One of the dungeons so far, there I've experienced a little bit of slow down and I can't come up with any reason as to why that should be based on what is visually occurring.

Tom: My one criticism would be, maybe it could be optimized slightly better.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Maybe it's your old video card that you talked about last episode.

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: It's still a very powerful video card.

Tom: The thing you have to remember is, we're up to the or something, and the low tier version of that card, of the series, is at best, if you're lucky, only or percent more powerful than mine.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Did you take the Steam hardware survey recently?

Tom: I think so.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Basically, you log in and says, do you want to be part of the hardware survey, where they basically take your stats and put it up and shows you where you are, and what most people want.

Phil: Most people want some pretty old tech.

Phil: I think your video card is going to do you well for quite some time, because developers obviously look at the Steam hardware survey and go, okay, well, where do we need to spec for?

Phil: Where are most people at?

Phil: Which brings into question the marketability of these new video cards that are $or whatever.

Phil: Why would you do that if no one's making games for you up there?

Tom: So you can run your AI generation.

Phil: Yeah, probably.

Phil: Is that it for Clair Obscure Expedition ?

Tom: The last thing I would add is you unlock various amusing costumes for the characters.

Tom: Thankfully, they are rendered in the story cutscenes, making some great moments.

Phil: Cool.

Phil: Just do some quickies here before we go into anything else.

Phil: I finished off the Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: It was fun.

Phil: I did have to use my mobile phone a fair bit, not to search for solutions, but to take photos of the screen at the end of each chapter so I could remember who was who.

Phil: Yeah, it went places for sure.

Phil: They sure did a twist on the whole thing in the last two chapters and the epilogue.

Phil: Prologue?

Phil: Epilogue, yep.

Phil: Boy, that thing went places and it was interesting.

Phil: It was interesting to the end.

Phil: So much so that I immediately downloaded Rise of the Golden Idol.

Phil: My wife quite enjoyed playing it.

Phil: This is something that doesn't happen very often.

Phil: She likes playing.

Phil: She does not often play video games.

Phil: So she was like, yeah, sure, go get it.

Phil: And I was saddened to have to get a refund for it almost immediately from Steam because the only way that I would play it is on the Steam deck.

Phil: And unfortunately, the text was too small to read.

Phil: It hasn't been optimized for the Steam deck at all, which was really unfortunate because I was looking forward to dipping into that.

Tom: That's a pity.

Tom: Would you consider trying the Switch version?

Tom: I'm pretty sure it's on Switch as well.

Phil: I can't imagine it would be much different.

Tom: You would presume it would have been optimized for the Switch though.

Phil: Yeah, I will, I will research that.

Tom: They would have to have made the text legible for the Switch version.

Phil: I'll investigate that.

Phil: And if they have, then yeah, I certainly will pick it up for the Switch.

Phil: I don't particularly care which handheld I play it on, but just playing it on a big screen is not practical, especially when it's going to be like shared gaming type thing.

Phil: And it was interesting because some of the cases, or some of the optional puzzles or whatever, I just look at and immediately get.

Phil: And my wife was like, I looked at this for like an hour and I couldn't get it.

Phil: And then other stuff she'd pick up on immediately.

Phil: And I guess that's the beauty of these types of games, is different people have different perspectives.

Phil: And yeah, it's still, I thoroughly recommend it.

Phil: And the case of the Golden Idol.

Tom: With your previous impressions?

Phil: I believe I didn't give it a score.

Phil: I was going to hold off and wait.

Phil: But you've raised a good issue.

Phil: Oh, the other problem was the other two chapters.

Phil: I immediately bought those as well.

Phil: Like the two other DLCs that they've done since then.

Phil: And I purchased them.

Phil: But the Steam Deck didn't acknowledge them.

Phil: So I purchased them and downloaded them on the PC.

Phil: But it just would not transfer to the Steam Deck.

Phil: So there's something else going on there.

Tom: That's bizarre.

Phil: It was a real bummer.

Phil: It was a real bummer.

Phil: I bet if I had bought the full package that included all the DLC, that it would have worked.

Phil: But buying the add-on DLC, for whatever reason, the Steam Deck didn't see it as part of the game.

Phil: And you need the game as the shell, basically, to house the DLC in order to play it.

Phil: So yeah, it was a total bummer because I thought I had my whole video game lineup sorted for the next month, playing those two and then playing the new one, which is set in the s.

Phil: So then I turned to Obra Dinn and it didn't take again.

Phil: It's not as effective as the Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: The D nature of it is a visual gimmick, but it doesn't add to the game play at all.

Phil: So yeah, sadly, Lucas Pope, who created one of my favorite games of all time, it just didn't take and it made me really appreciate the Case of the Golden Idol that much more.

Phil: So with that, I will give Case of the Idol a out of

Phil: Though, well, I almost give it a out of

Phil: In fact, if it was on a five-star system, I'd definitely give it five out of five stars.

Phil: There's really nothing to fault about the game other than the technical proficiency to accommodate a Steam Deck user.

Phil: Hopefully, there will be some future updates that remedy that.

Tom: Before we move on, we've got to do a small spoiler section of the Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: What did you think of the way the story ended?

Phil: Look, it's a rich story.

Phil: I thought that we're talking about Edmund Cloudsley and the time, the ability of the Golden Idol to age him and not age him, and the use of the Golden Idol to age other people as a punishment for the society that they established.

Phil: Is that what you're talking about?

Tom: No.

Tom: The storytelling of the final chapter, where essentially most of the events that occurred previously are all depicted very directly.

Tom: Whereas in the final chapter, the demise of Edmund Cloudsley is depicted almost second-hand through other events around it occurring, and you have to figure out and piece together.

Phil: All that, the actual mechanics of it.

Phil: In terms of storytelling.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I thought that was fantastic.

Phil: I thought it was really great.

Phil: I love jumping back into those old cases to solve the new case.

Phil: I thought it was really creative.

Phil: Why wouldn't it be?

Phil: If you're sitting there making this game and that's your life for three years or whatever, why wouldn't this have occurred to you to do that?

Phil: It would have occurred to me, but as the game player who's barely invested in the whole thing, I thought, oh, this is cool.

Phil: It was really cool.

Phil: I loved it.

Phil: I thought it was a great way to something that games don't get a chance to do very often, is to reminisce and go back and touch the favorite parts of the game again.

Phil: I thought it was a great mechanic.

Tom: It's rare that you have a game that has a deliberately anticlimactic ending as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, it ended with the epilogue, which is basically you had already played the game, but then you had to figure it out and solve all of those little sub-mysteries type thing.

Tom: That was the case in...

Tom: What was the adventure game I played recently, which was also heavy on detective style puzzle solving?

Tom: That ended with a quiz.

Phil: Oh, sorry, I can't help you.

Phil: You got to give me more than that.

Tom: It featured a female protagonist and it was developed by one person.

Phil: Well, it sounds like we're playing video game questions.

Phil: I'm not going to get to the answer.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: No, you got to give me something more than that.

Phil: Sorry.

Phil: But anyway, it doesn't really matter.

Phil: I thought it was great.

Phil: I've given it a score.

Phil: Is there another game that you want to talk about?

Phil: Because this is a short episode tonight.

Tom: I just think I'll add one more thing on the ending.

Tom: Like I said, it's red, have an anticlimactic ending, and how it transpired with the incompetent, drunkard, successfully murdering the mastermind of all the events of the story up until that point, due to his hubris, I thought was a great touch of black humor.

Tom: It was a perfect ending.

Phil: Yes, indeed it was.

Phil: Indeed it was.

Phil: And that's why I was so interested to see where the expansions went with the game.

Phil: Have you played the expansions?

Tom: No, I have not.

Phil: Oh, that's a bummer.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, I might have to reward this development by buying the whole hog again and seeing if that works on the Steam Deck or even buying it and just making sure I spend the time on the PC itself.

Phil: What other game that I've been playing, that came out last week before we go, there's a game called Mice Maze.

Phil: Have you heard about this game?

Tom: No, I haven't.

Phil: It's early access on Steam right now.

Phil: You can buy it for $though there is a free demo, which is what I played.

Phil: Mice Maze is, imagine big picture.

Phil: First of all, imagine Pac-Man, imagine Pac-Man CE more precisely.

Phil: It's a bullet heavy, a bullet heaven roguelite where time only moves when you do.

Phil: Unless you move forward, the enemies can't come towards you.

Phil: Imagine yourself walking around a maze as you would in Pac-Man, and you're collecting dots, and you're collecting buffs.

Phil: So you'll come along across a buff, and you get to pick between three different buffs, which one you want.

Phil: You pick those, and eventually just keep working your way around the maze, while these ghosts or these cats actually follow you.

Phil: The aesthetic is that of a GBA game, Game Boy Advance game.

Phil: So it's sort of a retro pixel art aesthetic.

Phil: And you're playing as a mouse that's going through this maze, collecting these dots and buffs and avoiding cats.

Phil: Eventually, there's this grim reaper cat that can walk through walls that comes for you.

Phil: And you can fend him off for a while, but then another grim reaper cat will come for you.

Phil: And eventually, they'll get you a score, and then you'll start again.

Phil: Because it says it is a rogue light, but you'll keep your buffs.

Phil: And so the game is creative.

Phil: It's enjoyable, but it's a bit too frenetic for me as a rogue light.

Phil: I mean, it's an action-oriented rogue like.

Phil: And like I said, time only moves when you do, so it's got that super hot type element to it.

Phil: So I can see how it would be engaging and addictive in a way.

Phil: But it's not the sort of game I feel like I'd put a lot of time into.

Phil: Though this is only a demo, and it is only an early access.

Phil: So I think it's about $in the States.

Phil: It's $down here in Australia.

Tom: So it sounds a little bit disappointing.

Phil: Well, I wouldn't say that.

Phil: I'd say it's got a lot of complex systems in it.

Phil: The hook is there, but it isn't as engaging to me.

Phil: Like I said, they've described it as a Bullet Heaven game, which I'm not quite sure what the difference is between Bullet Heaven and Bullet Hell.

Phil: I don't find it to be a Bullet Hell game at all.

Phil: Yeah, so yeah, it just doesn't hit the mark, but it is creative and basically we'll just wait and see how it develops, I guess.

Tom: So it's still Early Access.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: What's your opinion on Early Access games?

Tom: I think it depends entirely on the game.

Tom: It can be an excuse to release something with never completing it, which for some, that doesn't even matter.

Tom: For others, it can be you end up with a game that is essentially unplayable.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think in this case, the game is complete.

Phil: It's just a way for them possibly to introduce themselves at a lower price point and have some excuses for things that don't work.

Phil: I'm not a fan of Early Access at all, and how this has been ruined for me is a game that I think I'd otherwise enjoy called Prison Architect.

Phil: I like the concept so much.

Phil: It's a SimCity type thing where you build your own jail.

Phil: So it had a dark theme, but the fun of a building game and a resource management game.

Phil: And I got the Early Access to it about two years before it came out, and I played enough of it where I sort of had my fill of it, so that by the time that the game actually came out, I wasn't interested in playing it at all.

Phil: And the game apparently went in a completely different direction, but because I'd already had my taste of it, I just never went back to it.

Phil: And that sort of soured me on Early Access.

Phil: It's like, no, when you're done with your game, I'll buy it.

Phil: Thanks, you know?

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: That's understandable.

Phil: OK, so with that, we'll go into a listener email for you.

Phil: This is where I read you questions from other people's podcasts, because I didn't like the way they answered it, and I'm thinking that perhaps you can give it a better answer.

Phil: You ready?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I do remember the name of the game that you're talking about to the adventure game.

Tom: What is it?

Phil: Crimson Diamond.

Tom: Of course it is.

Phil: Yes, Crimson Diamond.

Tom: Why did I bring it up?

Phil: You're talking about, I was talking about Case of the Golden Idol.

Tom: I remember we were talking about the Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Well, keen listeners perhaps can tell us what we were talking about the next time we talk.

Tom: We remember the game, but not why it was relevant.

Phil: No.

Phil: Danny from an undisclosed location writes, when was the last time?

Tom: Oh, I remember now.

Tom: Both games had an epilogue related to reliving moments of the rest of the game.

Phil: That's cool.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: That's good.

Tom: As we just did, we just relived the end of the podcast.

Phil: We did.

Phil: We can do it again.

Phil: Danny from an undisclosed location writes, when was the last time you were on a boat?

Tom: The last time was on a boat.

Tom: A month or two ago, I was sailing.

Phil: Really?

Phil: La-di-da.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: A yacht or a catamaran or?

Tom: It was a very tiny little boat that you can sail by yourself.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I forget what those are called.

Phil: I think those are called a catamaran, a little baby catamaran.

Phil: So you were boating by yourself?

Tom: Correct.

Phil: Was this in this country?

Phil: Yep.

Tom: This was at Albert Park Lake, and I previously sailed at Docklands as well, and I recommend sailing at Docklands because there were no reeds.

Phil: This is news to us.

Phil: Do you tow this around behind your purple Honda?

Tom: No, I don't.

Tom: I hire it.

Phil: You just hire it.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: A tip is, if you want to go sailing, go to any yacht or sailing club.

Tom: Apparently, these rich people are desperate for people to sail with.

Tom: Very desperate.

Phil: Okay, okay.

Tom: As you can tell, money cannot buy you friendship, and it also cannot buy you people who will go sailing either.

Phil: Excellent.

Tom: Probably, it cannot buy you friendship, but it cannot buy you shipmates.

Phil: No.

Phil: Last time I was in a boat, I actually went to a yacht club nearby, and I rented a boat for the day.

Phil: He actually rented two boats for the day.

Phil: It cost me no more than $

Phil: It was basically like a small six-foot type aluminum tinny, as they're called here in Queensland.

Phil: Yeah, I cruised around the bay and did a spot of fishing, and it was a fun time, really fun time.

Tom: Was this with a sail or a motor?

Phil: No, no, with an outboard engine on the back, a very anemic one, because this is the original.

Tom: Do you need a license for that in Queensland?

Tom: You do in Victoria.

Phil: For the, let's see, for the horsepower of the engine.

Phil: So if the horsepower of the engine is under a certain limit, you don't need a license for it.

Phil: It's like those little Peewee mini bikes.

Tom: So that's why the engine was so anemic.

Phil: Anemic, exactly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And with cell phones these days, who cares if it breaks down?

Phil: You just call them up and say, here's my exact location and move on.

Phil: I have a great thing about using your cell phone when you're on a boat, is you can see exactly where you are at all times, and you can look for shallow water and the whole thing.

Phil: It's, yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that was a good question, Danny.

Phil: Unexpected answers probably from both of us.

Tom: Probably better answers than from the podcast that came from, because most likely their answer was, I've not been on a boat.

Phil: No.

Phil: It was things like, I went on a ferry to France and, yeah.

Tom: That's even worse than not being on a boat.

Phil: No.

Phil: Get over to gameunder.net, check out our articles, check out our reviews.

Phil: We've been doing this for a long time since

Phil: So there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now on our website.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question.

Tom: I recommend the article, Did Stephen Hicks Redeem Himself?

Tom: Which you can find by searching Reagan.

Phil: Reagan, not Hicks?

Tom: No.

Tom: You can probably find it by searching Hicks as well, but I found it by searching Reagan.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: We are now publishing our transcripts on the website as well.

Phil: So now when you search for stuff, I think I've done about episodes out of

Phil: So now you'll find more of our back catalog as well, if there's a game or a topic that you're interested in.

Phil: I think you said you put in Nixon, and we've mentioned Nixon three times in the games that I mentioned.

Tom: I think you were searching Nixon.

Tom: That's why I searched Reagan, and to my horror, we've not mentioned Reagan on the podcast before, apparently.

Phil: Well, we have now.

Phil: Thanks for listening to Episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Ronald Reagan.

Phil: We'll see you next time.

Game Under Podcast 170

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:05 Intro

0:00:30 ANZAC Banter

0:01:47 Gamepass on Switch 2?

0:08:23 Are the Big 3 at a Gridlock?

0:17:35 Third Party Switch Games are Codes

0:21:00 Switch 2 Release Price

0:23:52 Oblivion Remake Launch

0:29:04 Tom's Played Oblivion Remake

0:46:36 Phil's Played Case of the Golden Idol

0:56:00 Tom's Played Blue Prince

1:04:10 SPOILER ALERT for Blue Prince

1:24:42 Outro

In this episode Tom and Phil discuss the weeks news, including more Switch 2 controversy, and Microsoft’s remaster of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. We then give our impression of the Blue Prince, a game that many are putting on the top of their GOTY lists. Tom dabbled with the Oblivion remaster and after last episode Phil decided to play The Case of the Golden Idol and tell Tom exactly what he thinks about it.

ANZAC Biscuit Recipe

Mix together 1 cup plain flour, 1 cup of sugar, 1 cup rolled oats, 1 cup coconut, pinch of salt. Melt 250g of butter in 2 tablespoons of water, then add 1 tablespoon of can syrup and 1 teaspoon of baking soda. Stir into dry ingredients. Mix well. Place teaspoonfuls on greased tray and bake in moderate oven till browned (about 10 minutes). Allow to cool on tray.

Transcript:

Tom: Hello and welcome to Episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host, Tom Towers, and I'm joined, as always, by...

Phil: Oh, Phil Fogg.

Phil: Sorry, I was waiting for you to make some sort of Anzac Day reference or something.

Tom: I forgot your name.

Tom: That was the issue.

Tom: I was waiting for you to fill me in there.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Fill you in.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: I just mentioned Anzac Day.

Phil: That's something for our foreign listeners.

Phil: Anzac is short for Australian New Zealand Armored Corps.

Tom: It's also a biscuit.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: I was going to say it's also a fantastic biscuit with some variants.

Phil: I've got to ask you, do you believe coconut should be an ingredient in Anzac biscuits?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Okay, good.

Phil: We're on the same path.

Phil: So rolled oats, coconut, sugar.

Phil: What's your thoughts on honey?

Tom: Probably should have sugar.

Tom: Could have honey though, why not?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Have you made your own Anzac biscuits?

Tom: Yes, I believe I have.

Phil: I have a killer recipe.

Phil: I'll put it up on the show notes there.

Tom: In our cooking section.

Phil: In our cooking section.

Tom: I'm looking forward to reading all the back story that will be featured in the recipe, I presume.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Now also, do you have your Die of Destiny ready?

Phil: Because I don't know if you've finished any games.

Phil: I know we're going to be talking about some big games this week, like Blue Pince and Oblivion and stuff like that.

Tom: The Die of Destiny was located, I believe.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Very good.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, we'll start in with the news.

Phil: Story number one, Xbox boss Phil Spencer reiterates support for the Switch saying Nintendo has been a great partner.

Phil: We think it's a unique way for us to reach players who aren't PC players and aren't players on Xbox.

Phil: It lets us continue to grow our community of people that care about the franchises that we have, and that's really important for us to make sure we continue to invest in our games.

Phil: The Xbox head reiterated the company's plans to keep delivering games and making them available quote in as many places as possible.

Phil: Not really a new story there, I guess, other than the fact that it has Switch in the headline and this credit goes to Variety, the entertainment magazine.

Phil: I got a question for you.

Phil: Do you see, this is an easy question, do you see any world in which Game Pass is on a Nintendo system?

Tom: I think it comes down to whether Nintendo would allow it.

Tom: I presume, with the statements Microsoft has been making, they would like Game Pass to be on both PlayStation and Switch.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: They'd love it on Sony's platform as well.

Phil: But do you think Nintendo would allow it?

Tom: I think maybe not.

Tom: Maybe they think it would devalue the brand somehow.

Phil: I would say they absolutely would not want it on there, because if you're giving away all these, you're not giving it away.

Phil: I mean, it's a subscription.

Phil: Obviously, there would be a profit share there to make it worthwhile for Nintendo.

Phil: But I think as long as Nintendo is financially viable and making money, they would be foolish to allow Game Pass or any subscription service on their platform.

Phil: Because while people are playing the new Oblivion on Game Pass, they're not going out and buying a Nintendo game.

Tom: It would also be competing with their own subscription service as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I don't think there's any way possible for that.

Phil: I think Microsoft would love it.

Phil: Now, what do you think Sony would do it?

Phil: Or just for the same reasons?

Phil: Absolutely not.

Tom: I would presume Sony wouldn't either.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Do you think-

Tom: What about Game Pass officially on a Steam Deck in some capacity somehow?

Phil: I'd say that Steam would do it.

Phil: Valve would allow it, but they'd probably want some monstrosity of a percentage of the profit share.

Phil: Because it would also, for the same reasons, it's going to cut into their revenue.

Phil: But if they were getting, let's say, percent of the subscriptions that come through Steam, they might do it.

Phil: And if Nintendo had three hardware flops in a row, they might look at it in a different way as well and go, well, why are we making these games home towards the Western market?

Phil: Or why are we chasing that?

Phil: You know, our third-party support could be Game Pass, basically.

Phil: And we'll stick to making our games and then you've got Game Pass on there as well, as long as they were getting a lucrative enough piece of the action.

Tom: Here's a question for you on the Switch launch.

Tom: I think a notable thing I've seen lacking from discussions is whether people think it will actually be successful or not.

Phil: Well, there's a couple of things there.

Phil: Number one is, and I understand what you're saying, the reality right now, and this isn't, really isn't indicative of how it will go forever, but apparently pre-sales in Japan have sold out, and they had to actually issue a statement because they're a publicly traded company, stating that we are not going to have enough systems at that launch.

Phil: And I haven't got the latest on the US pre-sales because that just was basically like a day and a half ago.

Phil: So based on pre-orders, it will be successful, but the people who are pre-ordering, the people who are in the bag, they know exactly what's going on with the Switch

Phil: Whether it's going to be successful broadly will depend on whether they're able to bring in people who aren't following video game website news, website channels and things like that.

Phil: So I think there's room there for them to fail.

Phil: There certainly is and I'm not the only one to say it.

Tom: I think the most interesting part is just that it's not a part of the discourse at all.

Tom: In the past anyway, when a console has launched, that's been one of the major talking points, has it not?

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Is it going to fail or not?

Phil: I have heard some people ask if it could possibly fail, and given reasons, like it's not innovative enough, it's too expensive, it's not innovative enough.

Phil: I'm not the only one to have said that, but I don't think I see it in the broader community at all.

Phil: I don't see regular Joes asking, is this going to succeed or not?

Tom: I haven't seen it either.

Tom: I think it goes back to the thing we've been discussing before about the total change in attitude with gamers when it comes to companies, where there doesn't really seem to be much criticism of them in terms of their consumer-based policies.

Tom: And I think going with that is just an assumption that everything will succeed, because why wouldn't it?

Tom: Everything is great, is it not?

Phil: Right.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I really think the price point is something here that is going to cause some squeamishness amongst the broader community.

Phil: Because at the end of the day, what are most people picking?

Phil: Like they're either playing on a tablet, casuals, or either playing on a tablet, or they can get this switch with the Mario characters on it, right?

Phil: From their perspective.

Phil: And for bucks or bucks, you go, yeah, it'll be worth it.

Phil: The kid's going to play with it for six years, it's fine.

Phil: But when it's closer to a thousand bucks in Australia, when you add up a second controller in a video game and all the rest of it, we'll just basically that, you get a second control in the game.

Phil: But maybe if we get on to the next story.

Phil: But Mike, other question was before we get on to the next story, which is also Switch launch related, so we can continue on that topic.

Phil: Do you think we're at a gridlock with Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft?

Phil: I thought this generation, something would shake out or maybe in the next generation of consoles, something would shake out where Microsoft is going to go, no, we're not going to make a console anymore, or Sony would do something similar or will pull back in some way.

Phil: Like is Nintendo always going to be over there in the niche doing what they do?

Phil: Is Microsoft going to stick with this game pass or bust strategy?

Phil: Because when Spencer says in this, let us continue to grow our community of people that care about the franchises that we have, right?

Phil: Now, he can say that now because they own Bethesda, and they own Activision, and they own a whole bunch of other companies as well.

Phil: Five years ago, Microsoft was not talking about people who care about the franchises that they have because they basically had two or three franchises, Boots of Gears and Halo, and all of them were starting to show craft.

Phil: So do you think where we are now with these three players involved in the way that they're involved, do you think that is going to be the status quo for the next five years?

Tom: So by status quo, do you mean you were suggesting that another contender could potentially enter or solely that one might leave?

Phil: I was thinking one of them had to have, one of these companies had to have left, right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: It obviously wasn't going to be Nintendo with the most successful console sales of all time.

Phil: But you look at Sony and they've got their console, but they haven't really got a great lineup of games.

Phil: Because third-party support is something that's no longer really an issue between Sony and Microsoft because of the acquisitions, in part the acquisitions that Microsoft has made, and in part also because the economy, it costs so much to make these games, developers are not going to tie their games just to Sony.

Phil: In fact, one of the store board companies like Square Enix basically said it was a mistake to release Final Fantasy VII Remaster exclusively on Sony initially.

Phil: So I was looking at one of these guys to fall out, and I thought that it was going to be Microsoft.

Phil: I think they still may, but they're still talking to talk about doing a handheld and doing a handheld, and it doesn't seem like any of these players are going to exit the scene.

Tom: What happens, just to come up with a totally different direction to this, what happens if Sony and XBox both release, essentially, their version of a Switch, right?

Tom: At a similar price point to the Switch

Phil: I think it keeps going the way it goes.

Phil: Like, for example, every Japanese business person I meet, and I meet a few, none of them have Samsung phones, none of them.

Phil: None of them have Apple phones, none, not a single one.

Phil: The Australian employees that work for the Japanese companies that have to go to Japan all the time, also do not have a Samsung or Apple phone.

Phil: What do they have?

Tom: You tell me.

Phil: They have Sony phones.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Every single one of them has a Sony phone.

Phil: I can see the appeal.

Phil: Now, it's running some version of Android, unfortunately.

Phil: Otherwise, I'd be all over it, because Sony, there's no argument, well, you could probably argue it, but I don't think there's any argument that Sony, I'm sorry, that Sony makes exquisite electronic devices.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: In terms of design and feel.

Phil: But have you seen a Sony phone in Australia here, like anyone using a Sony phone?

Phil: If you have, it's probably-

Tom: I was unaware Sony made phones.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: So that's why I think Sony can kind of just do what they do, and then they'll be fine because of the Japanese loyalty to their brand.

Phil: Microsoft, there's no loyalty to the Microsoft brand.

Phil: People use Game Pass because it's a good deal.

Phil: If it ceases to become a good deal, they will cease to buy it.

Phil: So to your question, and I did two episodes ago, I did an analysis of the low sales of hand-held devices outside of Nintendo's success.

Phil: Everyone thinks it's successful, but really, Switch has been the only success in this sphere.

Phil: I think Microsoft will release one, but I think if they do what Steam did and just basically make it a big picture Game Pass machine, I think it could have some appeal.

Phil: I mean, people use Microsoft products.

Phil: I think almost every non-retired Australian uses a Microsoft product every single day.

Phil: So there's something to that and people associating Microsoft with technology.

Phil: So I think Sony will do it.

Phil: I think it'd be a success in Japan, but they'd probably price it out of the market elsewhere.

Phil: The PlayStation Portal has been a phenomenal success in the West and in Japan, and all that does is stream games from your PlayStation

Tom: I think it would also put Nintendo in an interesting position as well, because they would be once again stuck half a generation.

Tom: Well, they haven't really caught up this generation, but for argument's sake, we'll say half a generation in the past, with potentially a similar price product.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: Unless Sony and Xbox were to be delivering something significantly more powerful, but with the length of video game consoles lifespan these days, it could be that the direction they move into is rather than releasing something significantly more powerful.

Tom: The point of the next console might be hand-held functionality.

Phil: It might be hand-held functionality, and it might-

Phil: remember Microsoft made that statement that their next console will be the biggest technological jump in console history, right?

Phil: And everyone went, oh, wow, it's going to be so powerful.

Phil: And I think it's going to be streaming.

Phil: I think it's going to be pushing game pass through streaming.

Phil: And yeah, that's not going to work everywhere.

Phil: It certainly won't work in Australia, and it won't work in most parts of the United States.

Phil: But they'll also have a component where you can download the games as well.

Phil: But if they can make their hand-held be a thin client, they can also play games locally if you have to, you know, that might be their big innovation.

Phil: But yeah, I mean, it will put Nintendo in a difficult position because there will be at least a generation behind when Sony and Microsoft release their new systems.

Phil: I still think this hand-held concept has to prove itself and that we could be heading for a big fall.

Phil: But, you know, you look at the profusion of tablets in life, people using iPads and tablets, you know, constantly.

Phil: If they can think of the, if the general market thinks of these things as being a tablet for gaming, you know, then I think that you could have, this could be the form factor for the foreseeable future.

Phil: Certainly, buying a box from an electronic store and shoving it under your TV and then buying controllers for it is not, it's not the future, right?

Phil: It's just not a part of regular consumers thinking that you would do, that you would buy a specific thing.

Phil: Like people don't go out, people were used to buying, you know, a DVD player, for example, or a VHS player or a stereo system.

Phil: And that's where a console sort of fit into it.

Phil: Oh, I buy this thing to play my records, I buy this thing to watch movies, or I buy this thing to play games.

Phil: Well, now those other things have gone away.

Phil: They're still there for the hobbyists, obviously.

Phil: You can still go out and buy these things, because, you know, there are still people that collect Blu-rays and records.

Phil: But I think the concept of a console that you buy and put under your TV is going to go away.

Phil: But if you've got a hand held that docks to your TV, it makes a lot more sense.

Tom: Interesting times.

Phil: Even more interesting, story number two, this credit goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Yeah, this is another question.

Phil: Looks like most Switch third-party physical releases don't have the game on the card.

Phil: So, Nintendo has released this game key card format for their games, or at least it's an option.

Phil: So, it's a physical release you buy that has a download key rather than the full game data.

Phil: And that's going to be a pretty common sight because of the third-party games announced for Japan are all game key cards.

Phil: Now, you have to imagine that this means for the menu, for the publishers, this is obviously the cheapest choice because they don't have to buy high-capacity memory cards.

Phil: They can buy the lowest-capacity memory card because we're talking about a game key that's something like characters, as opposed to having to buy multi-gig SD cards essentially for each individual game.

Phil: So, you can see why third parties are doing it.

Phil: The only exception is CD.

Tom: Wouldn't they just have the code in the box printed?

Phil: Well, it's actually embedded in the card, which is good.

Phil: This has at least one advantage over code in a box release in that these aren't locked to a specific user account.

Phil: So, I can give you my Nintendo Switch game key card, and now you can use it on your system, and it's not checking to see if you're the legitimate user or not.

Phil: You'll just put that into your Switch and it'll go, oh, you need to download the files, and it'll let you download the files.

Tom: Okay, that's good.

Phil: Well, it's good for game sharing.

Phil: I mean, because you're essentially allowing people to photocopy your game as many times as they want.

Tom: Sorry, I previously had no interest in the Switch now I have some interest in the Switch

Phil: Yeah, I think there's going to be probably a few websites.

Phil: Now, the game key cards, I don't think that the actual codes will be visible or something that the user will be able to see and copy.

Phil: You'd probably need some device to dump the data onto, and obviously, they've got security around that.

Phil: But, you know, I mean, it does allow you at least to resell it, as opposed to, you know, once you get to just get it, use a code, you've used it and you can't resell it.

Phil: So, yeah, this is not surprising at all.

Phil: It won't delight physical collectors, but I can see why the publishers are doing it.

Phil: And of course, this will drive down the cost of games for the consumer.

Phil: Ha, ha, ha.

Phil: You know, it'll just make things better for the publisher and worse for the consumer because then the consumer has to pay for the download and the publisher gets to enjoy the larger margin of not having to buy a...

Tom: Hopefully, it will result in low used game prices though as well.

Phil: Yeah, hopefully.

Phil: I think GameStop is happy about this.

Phil: EV Games, I don't think they're actually happy about anything.

Phil: In other news, final prices were announced for Switch games and it was available for pre-order in North America finally.

Phil: Well, the rest of the world has been pre-ordering it now for about a month.

Phil: Prices stayed the same as were advertised.

Phil: However, accessories are going to cost more than they had thought.

Phil: So, you want to guess what a Switch Pro Controller costs in USD?

Tom: What did the first one cost?

Phil: In USD, I think it cost about bucks.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Let's say

Phil: Yep, bucks.

Phil: If you want to buy another Joycon pair, it is

Phil: You want to buy a strap for that?

Tom: Weren't they relatively cheap on the Switch ?

Phil: They were.

Phil: I mean, it wasn't like you just go out and buy a billion of them, but they were affordable.

Phil: I think in part because they broke so often that Nintendo had to concede something.

Tom: And you couldn't use them as a mouse either.

Phil: No.

Phil: If you want to buy a strap for that Joycon or just a single strap, you want to guess how much USD?

Tom: Twenty.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: Fourteen bucks.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Fourteen bucks, which would be-

Tom: So it's a bargain.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That'd be about $Australian.

Phil: You buy the camera for a bargain, bucks.

Phil: If you want to buy a second dock for it, bucks.

Phil: Hey, how about a carrying case and screen protector?

Phil: Forty bucks.

Phil: That's pretty good.

Phil: But if you want to all in one-

Tom: For a carrying case, is that good?

Phil: For bucks, if it's a good one.

Tom: I've got a Switch carrying case that is, I think was $Australian.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: These are all US prices, aren't they?

Phil: US.

Phil: Exactly.

Tom: So I wouldn't say $is a good price for a carrying case.

Phil: No.

Phil: Well, you should.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: But what about the all-in-one carrying case?

Phil: Probably has places for you to put the games.

Tom: Does that include the console?

Phil: No.

Phil: That's a mere $USD.

Tom: It carries everything.

Tom: I can put more games than I have in it.

Phil: Then you can get a gigawatt memory card, as you call it, for Switch

Phil: That's a mere $USD, which I think is pretty fair, really.

Tom: I assume you can just buy any SD card?

Phil: Yeah, you can, but this is the official Microsoft branded Mario's faces on it, that you'll never see once you put it in the device.

Phil: bucks.

Phil: All right.

Phil: That's not okay.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: We'll move on to story three, shall we?

Phil: Oblivion Shadow Drops.

Phil: So Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion Remastered was shadow dropped this week, and it's available not only on-

Tom: So it's not Oblivion Shadow Drop, that's not the game?

Phil: No.

Phil: It's not only available on Xbox and PC, but also on PlayStation

Phil: The remaster features updated visuals, improved mechanics, and all post-release DLC, which is pretty cool, and it is available on Xbox Game Pass for free if you of course subscribe for money.

Phil: This of course was no surprise.

Phil: Rumors about this remake surfaced in in the remaster.

Phil: There's been stories about this going on and on.

Phil: The remaster was actually leaked last week as well, and then the official Xbox support account gave out a release date.

Phil: So I'm not sure you could call this a shadow drop, but at least they said the game exists and it's available now.

Phil: There's a deluxe edition and a normal edition.

Phil: The normal edition sells on Steam for Australian AUD, and comes with some, the normal version comes with free horse armor, which is a great improvement on the original release.

Tom: Did you say the deluxe version comes with free horse armor?

Phil: No, the normal version comes with free horse armor.

Phil: You do not have to spend $to plate your horse.

Phil: This was developed, I just want to bring to people's attention, that this was co-developed by Bethesda in a company called Virtuous.

Phil: I had not heard of Virtuous, so I looked them up and they basically provide video game development support.

Phil: They're based in Singapore, they've got like employees and offices, and they worked on things like NieR Automata, League of Legends, Bioshock, The Collection, and Marvel Avengers.

Phil: So it sounds like they've probably done all of the work here.

Phil: So yeah, I thought that was pretty good.

Phil: I beat the original.

Phil: I found The Elder Scrolls IV to be, we did talk about Oblivion last episode.

Tom: But-

Tom: Can we take credit for the re-release?

Phil: I think so.

Phil: I think finally they said, well, Game Under Podcast is talking about it.

Phil: I think we're at the crest of the wave.

Phil: I don't think we're going to get much more hype.

Phil: Now is the time.

Phil: Drop, drop, drop.

Phil: They picked up the phone to Singapore and said, get it out.

Phil: I found the Oblivion to be a lot more, I don't know.

Phil: Maybe it's just my impression.

Phil: I thought it was a lot shorter and a lot more linear than say Morrowind or Skyrim.

Phil: It seemed much more like a video game.

Phil: I think that's why it was so successful.

Phil: It did launch with the Xbox and it was the game that I picked up with my one-to-one was available.

Phil: It did look phenomenal and people who had never played Elder Scrolls before were playing it.

Phil: It's fondly remembered.

Phil: I think it's getting a fairly good response.

Phil: But we'll just go into what we've been playing.

Phil: You've actually had an opportunity to play this, is that right?

Tom: Well, on your point, I think the main quest line in Oblivion was very short compared to us, a standard RPG, let alone an Elder Scrolls game.

Tom: That might be what you're remembering.

Tom: To me anyway, the world of the original felt a lot less interesting and detailed compared to Morrowind due to the procedural generation.

Phil: Yeah, I found that it felt very boxed in and pretty, but I see that the prettiness of it at the time carried it a long way.

Phil: I think it's a much prettier game than Skyrim, certainly.

Phil: When I say pretty, I mean in every aspect.

Phil: I mean, visually, it just seems to look better than Skyrim.

Phil: But maybe it's because Skyrim is now years old and I've got my rose-colored nostalgia glasses on for what Oblivion actually looks like.

Tom: Well, it did have a certain Vaseline Sheen to it as well.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: And then also starting with Patrick Stewart voicing the character that quickly is just gotten rid of about four minutes into the game.

Phil: But just even starting with that.

Tom: I could only afford a certain number of lines, unfortunately.

Phil: Yeah, which was the same thing with Cyberpunk and Keanu Reeves.

Phil: And also, what was the fellow that was Metal Gear Solid?

Tom: David Hayter.

Phil: No, no, the last one, Kiefer.

Tom: Kiefer Sutherland, yes.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: So they get paid by the word.

Phil: I wish I was.

Phil: So do you want to give your impressions of Elder Scrolls IV, the remaster?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: Well, so far, I went back to it out of curiosity because, as I said, I disliked it, let alone did not like the original version of Oblivion, yet played for hours.

Tom: So this was a exercise in introspection.

Tom: I was wondering if the remake would be able to offer me any insights into why it was, I spent hours on a game that I did not like.

Tom: And I think the answer is, it's just absolutely hilarious.

Tom: I mean, everyone knows all of the Oblivion memes, but as it opens, the opening itself is hilarious.

Tom: I think all Elder Scrolls games open with you being imprisoned or at least all the ones I have do.

Tom: But just the way the opening unfolds with Patrick Stewart appearing and giving a very disinterested yet professional performance while being surrounded by some of the most hilarious voice acting ever recorded is just absolutely beautiful.

Tom: And you then break out into this majestic, beautiful world.

Tom: Yet it turns out to be a world that is structured where you're essentially wandering through an area that looks very beautiful in which compared to other Elder Scrolls games, nothing is really happening and the dungeons are essentially disconnected from the world as are the towns, which is the case in other Elder Scrolls games as well.

Tom: Yet a lot more happens in the interstitial sections where you're wandering from dungeon to town, so it doesn't feel like they're disconnected.

Tom: It feels like the one sort of world.

Phil: I think technically, like at the time, releasing any Bethesda game on a console, which this is still before updates were a part of the thing.

Phil: You couldn't be assured that the end user was even going to have an Internet connection.

Phil: I think on the base there was not an Ethernet port, for example.

Phil: And so I think the accomplishment of actually shipping this game on a disk is pretty remarkable.

Phil: Like the fact that they were able to ship this on a disk without a safety net, and that the game wasn't completely broken, or wasn't, I don't remember ever being broken.

Phil: I think, you know, that is an accomplishment.

Phil: And so while the game is perhaps more tightly focused than you or I would want it, I believe I can give them some cover because of the accomplishment of actually releasing a game on a brand new system and not having the safety net of being able to update it.

Tom: Well, there was also the original Xbox release of Morrowind.

Phil: Right.

Tom: So it's not totally unprecedented.

Tom: And you could say that the Xbox version of Morrowind is broken, but you do have to bear in mind the PC version of Morrowind is also broken.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And to tell you the truth, I played Morrowind in its entirety on the Xbox.

Phil: And then I went out and bought the expansions on the Xbox and all the rest of it.

Phil: And then when I played it on the PC finally, it was similarly janky and broken.

Phil: So yeah, that's a very good point, though I think also, too, with what they were able to achieve with the graphics compared to the relative simplicity of Morrowind is admirable.

Phil: And you're right, they did have that practice run with Morrowind on the Xbox.

Tom: Yep, and as well as the structural thing, the gameplay as well is similarly hilarious, which applies to all Elder Scrolls games.

Tom: I think they have updated the combat in the remake.

Phil: Yeah, I read that the leveling system has been adjusted to prevent enemies from outclassing players.

Tom: Yeah, there was, I think there was something weird about how you set the difficulty level in Oblivion, which resulted in you, particularly early on, just getting absolutely slaughtered, which I found to be the case on the hardest setting in Oblivion as well.

Tom: Rats, I think, took three hits to be able to kill me and required about probably -plus hits to kill with a sword, or maybe with the bow and arrow with the Wood Elf character I chose to start the game with.

Tom: So it still has the option to be highly challenging like Oblivion did early on, but may make sense in some way.

Phil: Was you're mentioning that you play as a Wood Elf or Humblebrag?

Tom: Is that a Humblebrag?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Is that a Humblebrag?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: So what do you think Phil Fogg picks as the default character when he's going into these things?

Tom: Orc.

Phil: Orc?

Phil: No, no, no.

Phil: You're going to think more vanilla.

Tom: Human character, I presume.

Phil: Exactly.

Tom: Breton or Imperial.

Phil: Yes, exactly.

Phil: Yes, I always go with that.

Tom: White male Breton or Imperial.

Phil: With all power and armor.

Tom: Blonde hair and blue eyes.

Phil: The way it's supposed to be.

Phil: Now, I've also read that they've got new characters.

Phil: What we're talking about is that they said there's new character models that NPCs, enemies and playable characters have been completely redesigned.

Phil: Is that true?

Tom: I've always said it's true.

Tom: This was something I was worried about because one of the most charming things about the original is the ridiculous voice acting, which suited the character models very well.

Tom: I was thinking if they're going to go for a less ridiculous look, maybe it won't work as well, but I'm happy to report that the characters in the game look suitably comical, and in a stroke of, I think, genius, while the animation is not like The Last of Us or something like that, when the voice actors are going over the top, the characters' expressions reflect this, and it is just beautiful to witness.

Phil: It does.

Phil: They've retained the original charm there.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: I do want to correct myself too.

Phil: I've been calling this a remaster.

Phil: This is a full-blown modernized remake.

Phil: So this has been rebuilt from the ground up, which is, you know, so this isn't just, you know, smooth looking graphics and all of that sort of thing.

Phil: They've, though, however, I'm not sure if you were able to play it at K.

Tom: I certainly could not play it at K.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, it's built on Unreal Engine

Tom: Well, we will get to the technical side of things.

Tom: I think now is a good time to, because I think this is actually the first game I've come across of that's a new release that is now challenging my graphics card a little bit.

Tom: Solely when I'm outside during the day, if I have the graphics on medium instead of low with quality instead of balanced DLSS, the frame weight will drop as low as which is clearly unacceptable.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: But you're still, what you were talking about is when the game character is outside in the middle of the day.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I thought perhaps you're taking your computer outside.

Phil: No.

Phil: I was like, well, I was like, yeah, I think the grabbing.

Phil: Well, how far have you had to pair it back to like level or?

Tom: No.

Tom: It's not too much of an issue because it's mainly just as I start sprinting or turn suddenly, there's a frame drop essentially.

Tom: It's manageable.

Tom: I have been keeping it on, I think, high settings and quality DLSS.

Tom: If I'm in a dungeon or a town, it's to FPS.

Tom: Outside for the most part, it is as well.

Tom: It's just when there's a sudden change in speed or direction, there's a massive frame drop like that.

Phil: Sprinting is new in this game.

Phil: That's one of the things that they've had for it.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: The leveling, as you said, that's a totally new leveling system.

Tom: It seems to function similarly to Morrowind because I've noticed that when I'm sprinting my athletics experience is going up.

Phil: Oh, cool.

Tom: Which I think was a great system in Morrowind.

Phil: Yeah, definitely.

Phil: The more you use something, the better you get at it.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: They've updated the UI.

Phil: Did you notice?

Tom: I did not notice because I could not remember what the UI from Oblivion looked like.

Tom: They've made it basically-

Tom: I presumed they had updated it though.

Phil: They've made it basically the same as Skyrims and Elder Scrolls Online.

Phil: Elder Scrolls Online, do I have to play that?

Phil: What do you think?

Tom: Potentially.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So, okay.

Phil: So it sounds like you're pretty happy with it.

Tom: I am.

Tom: This would have been, I think, I made it out of the tomb, the sewer, and to the first area you're meant to get to essentially.

Tom: So I haven't really played it very much and this was going to be probably the end of my playthrough because as amusing as it is, do I really want to spend much time in Oblivion again, and the answer is no.

Tom: But then I did see, supposedly, you can complete the campaign in hours.

Tom: So I may have to attempt to do that.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I would think that your original hours of gameplay included a lot of emergent gameplay, storytelling type stuff, mucking around.

Tom: The side quests, of course, which is generally speaking the interesting part of an Elder Scrolls game.

Phil: Much more interesting.

Phil: As you know, I don't mess around with side quests.

Phil: I remember the game being about maybe or hours long, and just sticking to the mainline story.

Phil: So yeah, so that's going to be your last little...

Phil: It is the point though, isn't it?

Phil: Like, there's so much more out there to play, that if you've already played this game, would you really drop in for another even hours, which is probably what I would do these days.

Phil: I'm a little bit more interested in the world.

Phil: And I'm not sure I would, unless it was absolute, you know, unless it was less to play, but there's always more things to be playing, so.

Tom: But it would require me to stop playing the game on hard, because the combat requires some degree of effort on hard.

Tom: So it will be a question also if I continue, of whether I can live with myself if I lower the difficulty level.

Phil: I see.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So since this is your last exit with this game, do you want to give it a score for the Diode Destiny, or is it just, you know, you've only played it for minutes.

Tom: We'll give it a provisional Diode Destiny, I think.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And I'll get the mini-fog ready.

Phil: As regular listeners may not remember, the mini-fog is a minifigure that looks like me that I roll.

Tom: I thought that was what you called a certain part of yourself.

Phil: I don't roll out my mini-fog during the podcast.

Phil: Thank you very much.

Phil: This is the minifig, the Lego minifig, and we're going to, he basically tells the truth, whereas the Diode Destiny honestly doesn't, most of the time, it often is very low scoring.

Phil: So let's see.

Tom: Well, that would be pretty accurate for my scores, and would it not?

Phil: It would.

Tom: And the Diode Destiny gives it a two out of

Phil: Two out of ?

Phil: I thought it was going to give it a two out of

Phil: I will just roll the Mini Fogg here.

Phil: And it gives it a out of

Tom: So both low scoring this time.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: It sounds like you're impressed.

Phil: I mean, you know, you played minutes of the game.

Phil: You're not going back to it.

Phil: You know, come on.

Tom: And I would add, I would add, if anyone out there has not played Oblivion, you've got to, after all the memes, see at least a little bit of it for yourself, because it lives up to its reputation for hilarity and is a completely bizarre and I would say unique experience.

Tom: All Elder Scrolls games have this sort of insanity to them, but I think it's due to the voice acting.

Tom: Maybe Skyrim tops it.

Tom: I don't know.

Tom: But for its time, it was just an incredibly ridiculous experience.

Tom: That is, I would say, like no other game, with the exception of potentially Skyrim.

Phil: I think that's what Microsoft is betting on here or projecting is basically, there are tens of millions of people who play Skyrim, who have never played Oblivion, and basically, Oblivion is getting long in the tooth, so I think it's a fantastic time and a fantastic addition to Game Pass to give those people who have never played the game but love Skyrim an opportunity to play it.

Phil: And I think it's fantastic.

Phil: And I do want to reiterate, if you have not played it, you must play it.

Phil: You've got to do it.

Phil: It's part of the gaming law.

Phil: You have to do it, and it looks like Bethesda and Virtuous have done a good job of remaking this game.

Tom: Before we move on from The Elder Scrolls, I want to posit one final idea here, which is we all know another Elder Scrolls related meme is that there is no new Elder Scrolls game.

Tom: Now, I've been thinking, is it possible to release a new Elder Scrolls game with how inherently ridiculous Elder Scrolls is?

Tom: I don't know if it would be able to be as successful as it was in the past in the modern gaming zeitgeist.

Phil: I think the longevity of Skyrim has proven that they don't think that they can release a different game and I don't think they will.

Phil: I don't know what they're going to do with the next one.

Phil: It just basically has to be probably a palette change, a change of setting, different dragons, I guess.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: They're obviously already working on it.

Phil: But someone out there is going to be going, guys, we're not making Minecraft

Phil: Why should we be making a Skyrim ?

Tom: Is there room for a ridiculous RPG like that anymore?

Phil: Well, there's room for Skyrim.

Phil: I mean, it's still making money.

Phil: I mean, people are still playing, tens of millions of people are still playing it every day.

Phil: I've bought at least three copies of the game at full price for various platforms.

Phil: So I think there's still a place for it.

Phil: RPGs over the last two years have really, you think about Nier Automata starting that rebirth, and people looking for more RPG type experiences.

Phil: I think a Western RPG can still work.

Phil: It just has to be a good game.

Tom: Think of all the ones that are successful like Baldur's Gate III, for example.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: It's a totally different sort of tone, and it's a much more polished, and some might say, good experience.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: I think of Skyrim.

Phil: I don't think Bethesda knows it.

Phil: I don't think that Todd Howard knows it.

Phil: I think there are people at Bethesda that do know that Morrowind, I'm sorry, I might have to call it Morrowind.

Phil: Elder Scrolls is a lot like a community play, with the people on stage taking it totally seriously while a part of the set is falling down in the background.

Phil: That's the charm of the series is that you have all these people taking it extremely seriously while a cat walk on stage, it's not supposed to be there.

Phil: I still think there's a place in the world for it.

Phil: I definitely do.

Tom: That's all I'm asking.

Tom: I'm not saying there isn't, I was just asking your opinion on whether there was.

Phil: Yeah, very much.

Phil: Well, do you want me to talk about a game that you compelled me to play?

Tom: Go ahead.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: For those who didn't listen to last episode, Tom gave a review of The Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: I said, is this a game I should play?

Phil: Because I just told him I played this point and click game called There Is No Game and wasn't very impressed with it.

Phil: He said, I think it's a game you definitely should play.

Phil: So I went, all right.

Phil: So I looked at it and I went, he said I should play it and I should play it.

Phil: But then you made this little comment, I don't know, what did you say?

Phil: See how far you get or if you stick with it, or if you get past the first chapter or something like that?

Tom: Do you remember what you said?

Tom: I think I said, I don't know if you'd play the whole of the game or not, but you'd definitely enjoy trying it.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: So that little voice was playing in the back of my head when I was playing this game going, I'll show that little bastard.

Phil: I'm not going to give up on this game.

Phil: In fact, yeah, you are short selling it.

Phil: It's a phenomenal game.

Phil: I really like it.

Phil: I just want to describe it in my own way.

Phil: Basically, it's a whodunit.

Phil: You solve, I think, in the base game, like different murder mysteries, and they give you three static screens.

Phil: They give you three static screens, maybe two, maybe one at the very start, and then maybe four as you go on and all that sort of thing.

Phil: They give you, like you said, a book that says blank, blank, blanked.

Phil: Well, blank, blank wanted a blank.

Phil: So he asked blank, blank to get it.

Phil: When blank, blank arrived at blank, blank, blank, blank.

Phil: Then as an optional, you have to identify all the people in the scene.

Phil: If you do all the optional stuff, it makes the solving the actual case easier.

Phil: So basically, you have to examine these three screens and observe these crime scenes to get the clues from the characters through its possessions and environmental details.

Phil: That's all you've got.

Phil: That's all you've got.

Phil: So there's a dead body and you've got to figure out the murder weapon, the person who did it, the motive and how it all worked.

Phil: It sounds very simplistic, but it's actually a lot of fun and very complicated.

Phil: It requires a very basic level of logical deduction that I don't think a lot of games let you rely on, you know, and it doesn't hold your hand.

Phil: It has a hint system.

Phil: And I hope you're not drinking anything right now, I hope.

Tom: No.

Phil: I haven't used the hint system once.

Phil: And I'm in Chapter the seventh scenario.

Phil: And I did go into the hint system once, but I was like, this isn't helpful because I know the hints that they provided when I did try it, well, I guess I did try it once.

Tom: You were doing that just for journalistic integrity.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, it wasn't helpful at all because it's like, yeah, I knew that, I know that.

Phil: Yeah, that's not the thing I'm trying to, that's not what I'm trying to figure out.

Tom: A murder has taken place.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Tom: Think about who might have murdered the person.

Tom: Consider who the victim was.

Phil: Did you, when as part of your journalistic integrity, when you were going through the hint system, did you find any of it particularly helpful?

Tom: No.

Phil: Yeah, because I didn't need any help with the logical deductions.

Phil: It was more like, what is this guy's name?

Phil: Who is that guy and who is that guy?

Phil: And you have to remember that all the evidence is right in front of you.

Phil: And fortunately, and I think this is a really good game design element that they did, if there are clues in a scene, they will count them down as you reveal them.

Phil: So basically, as you go through these things, you build a vocabulary.

Phil: So if you see someone's carrying a notebook, you click on the word notebook and that will become part of your vocabulary.

Phil: So now you could say that blank, blank, okay, well, John Smith killed Mary Jane by blank, well, slapping her blank with a blank notebook.

Phil: Okay, so you put that in, it's obviously a made up scenario, and that's not the correct answer.

Phil: So you're like, okay, well, I know that the notebook is how the guy died.

Phil: So now I've just got to identify how he did it or what the identity of the people are.

Phil: Obviously, it's never as simple of a sentence as what I've just presented.

Tom: And how the notebook could have been a fatal weapon.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: And now I'm playing this on Steam Deck.

Phil: So I didn't mention about there is no game.

Phil: I'd certainly encourage someone to play that with a touch interface.

Phil: Obviously, with a PC, you can just use your mouse as well.

Phil: So with the Steam Deck, I'm using a combination of controls and touching it with my fingers.

Phil: And then my wife came in and said, what are you playing?

Phil: Because I had it up on the big screen.

Phil: Because it looks like someone got Microsoft Paint and who was about years old and started drawing stuff.

Tom: I think it looks great.

Phil: I think it looks fantastic, but it does look like it was all made in Microsoft Paint.

Phil: And so she's like, I said it's a murder mystery thing.

Phil: So of course, all she's about is murder mysteries, books, TVs, whatever it is.

Phil: If murder and mystery are not a part of it, she's not interested.

Phil: So we sort of did some coach co-op with it, and a couch co-op rather.

Phil: And she totally loves the game as well, which she is not a gamer.

Phil: So I think because it is such a raw logical deduction experience, it's the sort of thing that someone who doesn't usually play video games, if they are of a certain bent, can pick up and have fun with.

Phil: I'm disappointed that when I bought it on Steam, they had two.

Phil: They had one that was like bucks, and they had one that was like bucks.

Phil: And based on the description, the -buck one was like Game of the Year edition, or it wasn't those words, but it was like, hey, this is a pretty one.

Phil: It's got all the stuff.

Phil: And I was like, yeah, I didn't know what all the stuff is.

Phil: But then I put the base model, you go in and apparently it had two other expansions that are not included in the base model.

Phil: And I'm sorry that I didn't get that now.

Phil: So certainly when I buy the new game, I think I can still buy them separately though.

Phil: Yeah, I can.

Phil: But yeah, I've got to look into how much that's going to cost too.

Tom: I think they're only $each.

Phil: Oh, fair enough.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, I'll definitely do that.

Phil: Will I do that right now?

Phil: Will I do that before I buy the new game, The Rise of the Golden Idol set in the s?

Phil: Don't know.

Phil: If I buy those other two expansions, I might be sick of it by the time I get through all of those.

Phil: But we'll see.

Phil: We'll see how long this game goes for.

Phil: So yeah, thank you for the recommendation and the inspiration to keep going when times were tough.

Phil: I think I would tell anyone, this is not necessarily a point and click game.

Phil: As Tom enumerated last week, it's an Obra Dinn ripoff.

Phil: But I think this one has a lot more appeal than Obra Dinn.

Phil: They will certainly go back and give that one a try as well.

Phil: So yeah, a very good recommendation and one that I'd certainly encourage people to give a try.

Tom: Are you ready to give it a score, do you think?

Phil: I'll give you a score when I get to the very end of it.

Phil: But right now, it'd be a nine, definitely.

Phil: So I'm not going to give it an award for innovation.

Phil: I'm giving it basically an award for execution, pardon the pun.

Phil: The story is quite interesting as well.

Phil: Now, I do have to say I have cheated in one aspect.

Phil: Every time I've successfully managed to identify everyone, I have broken out my smartphone and taken a screenshot of that because this is a continuum.

Phil: So there are characters that go from one scene to the next.

Phil: It's a mystery that takes place over years, I think.

Tom: I believe I did mention one of the annoying things about the game was having to fill in the name of characters you already know the identity of.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And that was annoying, especially for the lesser characters.

Phil: And especially because this does take place over years, you'll see a character like Edmund Cloudsley as a young man.

Phil: And then you might not recognize him in years' time sort of thing.

Phil: But anyway, so yeah, so that's my experience with it.

Tom: Well, from one puzzle game to the next, are you familiar with Blue Prince?

Phil: I'm familiar with the artist formerly known as Prince.

Tom: Wasn't he the Purple Prince?

Phil: He was indeed the Purple Prince.

Tom: I'm talking about the Blue Prince.

Phil: The only thing I know about this game is that it's blown up.

Phil: And it's immensely frustrating as someone who gets most of their news or reviews from podcasts because everyone says, this game is so great, but I can't tell you anything about it because it would be a spoiler.

Phil: And it's like, okay, this is going to be my game of the year, but I can't tell you why.

Tom: People actually said that because that doesn't make any, that doesn't make any fucking sense.

Tom: Do they normally, when they're talking about puzzle games, simply describe what the puzzle is and its solution?

Phil: No, yeah, possibly.

Tom: That's the only scenario in which I can imagine they wouldn't be able to say anything about the game.

Phil: This is the same thing that happened to The Witness, Joe Blow's game.

Phil: This game is so good, I can't talk about it.

Phil: It's like, well, okay.

Phil: This seems to be the puzzle adventure problem for people talking about your game.

Tom: On that point as well, I think in my anti-chamber review, review of potentially the greatest puzzle game of all time, I in fact had an entire section describing a puzzle and the solution I came up for that puzzle.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: I almost remember it.

Phil: There was nothing spoiled.

Phil: There was nothing spoiled at all.

Phil: You know what's weird?

Phil: Because I learn about games through podcasts.

Phil: Just listening most of the time.

Phil: That's how I usually find out about people's experience with a game.

Phil: I always have this vision in my mind as to what the graphics are.

Phil: When I saw the images of this game, I thought, this looks like the game you just mentioned.

Phil: Anti-chamber.

Phil: For listeners not familiar, you can search at our website gameunder.net.

Phil: It's spelled anti, like A-N-T-I chamber, not anti-chamber, the room before a room.

Phil: Do you see where I'm coming from with that?

Tom: Yep, definitely.

Tom: One of the rooms in the game is the anti-chamber.

Tom: One of the only permanent rooms, or one of the only permanent rooms, I think.

Tom: So perhaps that is in fact referencing anti-chamber, because it didn't need to be an anti-chamber that was the passage from one room to the next.

Tom: There are other types of rooms that can also serve that purpose.

Tom: They might also have called it a vestibule for that matter.

Phil: Or a foyer or something.

Phil: Hey, now, I just want to frame this game for people who maybe haven't heard of it.

Phil: Blue Prince is spelled Prince, like the artist formerly known as, not P-R-I-N-T-S, which obviously it's a wordplay of, when you go on to describe what this game is.

Phil: It's a puzzle adventure game with roguelike elements.

Phil: It's developed by, it's an indie game, it's developed by someone I've never heard of before called Dogu Bomb, and published by a publisher I've never heard of called Raw Fury, and released in April th for PlayStation Windows and Xbox Series X and S.

Phil: It's received critical acclaim with reviewers praising its intricate puzzle design, and compelling mystery and unique blend of rogue-like mechanics.

Phil: So yeah, one aspect of this is it is a rogue-like.

Phil: It's got complex problem-solving, immersive world-building and rewarding gameplay loop, and people have compared it to Return of the Obra Dinn and Outer Wilds, a game that you also, you loved Outer Wilds, didn't you?

Tom: I think I played a little bit of it and didn't like it at all, so never continued.

Phil: Okay, because I bought it on the basis of your review, and I didn't like it at all either, because I found out-

Tom: I don't think I've reviewed the Outer Wilds.

Phil: We did.

Phil: We did a podcast on it, and it-

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: Well, there's only one way to find out.

Phil: The Outer Worlds-

Tom: Here's the typing.

Phil: The Outer Wilds, not the Outer Wilds.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's a Metroidvania, it's terrible.

Phil: Absolutely terrible.

Tom: Your search didn't match any results.

Tom: Try a different search.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, I'll get to the bottom of this because I bought it on the basis of your recommendation.

Phil: Absolutely.

Tom: You may be thinking of the Outer World, perhaps?

Phil: Which one was that?

Tom: That's not what it's called.

Tom: That was an Obsidian RPG, the science fiction-

Phil: No, the Outer Worlds is the RPG, and I bought that as well.

Phil: I thought, yeah, Outer Wilds was your recommendation.

Phil: Anyway, it doesn't matter to me.

Tom: It definitely was not my recommendation.

Phil: So here we go, Obra Dinn, man.

Phil: It's getting a lot of rip-offs.

Phil: So I did not expect this game to look like it did at all.

Phil: It's basically like a source engine game, right?

Tom: I don't know if it's a source.

Tom: Is it source engine?

Phil: I don't think so.

Tom: I think it would be Unreal or Unity.

Tom: These days Unreal, you would assume.

Phil: Well, tell us about the game.

Tom: Well, first, I have to preface my review by stating that I will be talking about the puzzles, which are the gameplay of the game.

Tom: So if talking about gameplay is a spoiler for you, you shouldn't listen to these impressions.

Tom: I'll leave the gameplay to the end.

Tom: Let's start off, in fact, not talking about the gameplay.

Tom: Let's discuss this game as if speaking about gameplay was a spoiler.

Tom: So as you'll note, the graphical style is cell shaded.

Phil: Right.

Phil: I do want to say just we do have chapter markers in this show, so you will be able to skip the spoilers when we get to it.

Phil: So just if you've got a modern podcast player, you just skip once you see a flag up a spoiler, okay?

Tom: I think it's set in the s, if I recall correctly, probably just so that they could have CRT monitors in the game.

Tom: That appears to be the only significance of that, given the older aesthetic to things, both fashion-wise in terms of the protagonist clothes and also the mansion.

Tom: There is a mansion in the game.

Tom: I won't mention what relationship the mansion bears to gameplay, but there is a mansion.

Tom: There's writing in the game, there's letters you can read.

Tom: The letters, generally speaking, are not interesting to read in and of themselves.

Tom: There's a plot.

Tom: The story actually is that this player has received an inheritance, which is the mansion, but to be able to inherit the mansion, he has to perform a task, but because that task is related to the gameplay, I will unfortunately be unable to tell you what that task is.

Tom: There is sound and music as well.

Tom: I think the music, there's not much you can say about the music because the music also relates to the gameplay in the sense that it changes depending on what is occurring in the game.

Tom: I can't really say much about the music either.

Tom: But I can give you, I think, my editorial opinion on whether the game is good or not.

Phil: What about the roguelike elements?

Phil: I mean, that seems different.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Roguelike elements are part of the game play, so unfortunately, I can't talk about those either.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, it seems like we should probably move into quote spoiler territory.

Tom: I think we're ready to roll the die of destiny.

Phil: There you go.

Phil: No, you can't do that.

Tom: So we're ready to head into spoiler territories, are we?

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: So essentially, the way the Roguelike element of the game's function is, as per the title, the house, there's an entry to the house that is the starting room, and around that room, there's a grid set of tiles.

Tom: Each time you reach a doorway, this tile gets built into a room, and you have three randomly chosen rooms that you can turn the door you're opening into.

Tom: So when I say randomly chosen, the way to think of it is you have a deck of cards, and the cards have a certain number of rooms in them of several different types, and three cards are taken from the deck, and you've got to choose one of them.

Tom: So the Roguelike Element is basically a card game, and every day you have, I think it's numbers of steps that you can explore the mansion with, and a step is used up every time you enter or exit a room, including backtracking.

Tom: So when those numbers of steps are used up, the day ends and all the rooms you've built disappear, and you start again from scratch, essentially.

Phil: It sounds terrible.

Tom: Now in terms of puzzle solving, the first two initial puzzles you'll encounter are a division, subtraction, multiplication, and addition puzzle, which takes place on a billiard board, where there's one to and you can click on the numbers, one to which will be the result of each equation, and you've just got to work out the equation, and that's one of the puzzles.

Tom: Another puzzle is in a room where there are three locked cases.

Tom: In one of the three locked cases, there are gems, and gems are used to be able to draft the better rooms in the game.

Tom: One of the boxes, sorry, up to two boxes can be telling the truth or a lie.

Tom: They've got a message written on top of the box, which might be, just as an example, the blue box contains the gems, and the other box will say the blue box doesn't contain the gems, and another box will say both boxes are lying, something like that.

Phil: Yeah, I think Shakespeare did something like that a few hundred years ago.

Tom: It's Shakespearean writing in the game, you might say.

Phil: Is there any puzzles where you rotate the tiles on a grid, so all the pipes are connected into a single group?

Tom: There's a puzzle where you are rotating pipes to get pipes connected.

Phil: You're kidding.

Phil: No.

Phil: Is there also where you have to drop three?

Phil: There's three different colored gems that come from the top of the screen to the bottom, you've got to move them around, or align three pieces of candy that will then disappear to allow the other candy pieces to drop?

Tom: No.

Phil: There's a lost opportunity.

Tom: Sadly not.

Phil: This game sounds hack.

Tom: We will continue, we will continue because outside of these enthralling puzzles, there are also, I think, much broader puzzles that you gradually find clues for throughout the house that relate to combining certain rooms to be able to do certain things.

Tom: Those are vaguely more interesting than the minute-to-minute puzzle solving, which I think is horrendously bad.

Tom: And due to the nature of the game where you repeatedly are running the mansion again and again and again to be trying to achieve certain goals, one of them being find the mysterious room that will allow you to take on your inheritance, you're constantly doing this shitty fucking subtraction division maths game, you're repeatedly doing this shitty fucking which box is lying or not game, an infinite number of times, and the maths puzzle gets progressively more and more difficult.

Tom: It's not that it gets difficult to solve, it just becomes longer to solve because there are more steps in the maths equation.

Phil: Well, is there at least, do you solve a puzzle by moving three matches to create five squares?

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: But there's a puzzle where you have the sliding tiles that you have to get in the correct order.

Tom: So there's that puzzle.

Phil: The subtraction division puzzle though.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You're saying that they do that more than once.

Tom: You have to do that every single time you do a run, if you want to get the prize that is hidden behind it, which you probably will.

Tom: Because it's usually keys which you need.

Phil: So when you do a run, let's just say you're starting a run through this mansion, and you go to the door on your left, is it always going to be the blue room where you're doing the pipe puzzle or do they change where the rooms are every time?

Tom: No.

Tom: There are three permanent rooms in the mansion that I'm aware of anyway, which is the foyer, the antechamber, and you unlock another floor known as the foundation, which you can stick into certain place in the mansion of your choosing.

Tom: Those are the only three permanent rooms.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So second question, if there is a blue room with a goose in it, a goose doll, it may not always be the first door on the left, but will you run into that same room in a different run, in a different place and it will have the same puzzle in it?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So the rooms themselves, you walk into the room and go, ah, this is the goose room.

Phil: I know how to do this puzzle.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So there's a certain number of rooms.

Phil: So obviously as you do run after run after run, you're going to get better at it because you're going to, basically, you'll be more familiar with the rooms and you'll come across rooms that you haven't seen before and you'll have to figure them out.

Phil: So how do they limit the run?

Phil: Is it a time limit or is it the number of rooms you go in?

Tom: The number of steps you have.

Phil: Number of steps?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: So how many steps do you take in a room?

Tom: One step.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: So it is the number of rooms.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: But if you're trying to find all of the rooms, and they limit the number of rooms you can visit, how do you do that?

Phil: How do you get through that?

Tom: Well, the other thing that's occurring is there are permanent upgrades you can get.

Tom: So most generally speaking, most of the items and so on are limited to the run you are in.

Tom: But as you were going along, you find inheritance tokens which give you coins that you start the day with.

Tom: You unlock outside of the mansion, there are more permanent rooms that you're able to unlock, which give you other things like more steps to start the day with, and gems that you start the day with, things like that.

Tom: So there are permanent upgrades.

Tom: Additionally, you find upgrade disks in the game, which if you also find a computer to, you can then permanently upgrade certain types of rooms.

Tom: You also discover new types of rooms, which are permanently added to your deck of rooms as well.

Tom: So as you were going along, you are unlocking things that allow you to explore longer and more easily each day.

Phil: So the fact that you're able, this has been described as a rogue-like, but it's actually a rogue-like, because you get to keep your upgrades, basically.

Tom: Only some of them.

Phil: Well, now, you've described to me, I said it sounds pretty hack, the puzzle sound hack as, and I mean, I like the overall conceit of the game, but the day-to-day playing of it, I mean, it must be pretty good if people are saying it's going to be the game of the year.

Phil: It must be a pretty good hook.

Tom: Well, here's the thing with roguelikes and the structure of a roguelike.

Tom: The thing that is addictive about gambling and most forms of addiction in general anyway, is not reinforcement, but the possibility of reinforcement.

Tom: So if you add a randomizing element to a game, you are automatically making it enjoyable whether the game is fucking stupid or not.

Phil: That's a good point that I've never heard of before because people call this, well, just one more run game.

Phil: But what they're talking about is, let me just put one more dollar into the slot machine.

Phil: Just one more and maybe I'll win.

Phil: Just one more, maybe I can do better.

Phil: Now see, I haven't had much experience with roguelikes other than like Slay the Spire and another game I've been playing recently as well, which I completely like.

Phil: But I don't have that gambling dopamine release.

Phil: I'm playing it because I liked Magic the Gathering.

Phil: When I don't win at Magic the Gathering, I'm not like, oh, let's just go one more round because I've got to win.

Phil: I like it because I like it.

Phil: When I'm done with it, I just put it down.

Phil: Like Bellatro, there's another one that I've gotten into.

Phil: That hook doesn't appeal to my personality, though it's starting to make sense now why people say all the fantastic things they say about Slay the Spire, and Bellatro, and now Blue Prince.

Phil: This is the next iteration, or this is the next thing to come along that reminds them of those two other games which have had tremendous critical response.

Phil: Yeah, okay, so these people are basically gambling addicts.

Tom: That's the only reason I can justify the love for the game.

Phil: If you think about it, what does every gambler think when they're playing something?

Phil: They think that they're learning something that will help them the next time around, right?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So if you're going into a room going, oh yeah, the blue room, I know how to solve this puzzle.

Phil: This will help me win.

Phil: It's kicking into that same thing.

Phil: Dumb people who play blackjack, don't just sit there and enjoy it.

Phil: They go, oh yeah.

Phil: I think this next time around, okay, yep, I've learned from my mistake.

Phil: I'll do better next time.

Phil: That's interesting.

Phil: That's interesting.

Phil: I've never drawn the link between rogue likes and the dopamine of gambling addiction.

Phil: That's fantastic.

Phil: Good point, man.

Tom: The other issue I would add with having a structure like this is, even if it does give you that enjoyment, is there are better puzzles than the ones I've described.

Tom: The problem is, for me anyway, if I encountered a better puzzle due to the other thing that this implies which is the feeling of scarcity, some of the times I could be bothered solving it, some of the times I couldn't be bothered solving it because I know, I'm not going to get this fucking room or this combination of rooms again for who knows how the fuck along.

Tom: I'm just going to look up how to do it because I can't be bothered wasting another two hours just to get back to this thing when I figured out what the solution was.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: It's a structure that to me is just totally anti-ethical to making a interesting or enjoyable puzzle-solving experience.

Phil: Or you could say antithetical, in fact.

Tom: Indeed.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Like I always say, once you go into the Internet for every puzzle or for any puzzle in a game, it's kind of like, are you playing the game or is the game playing you?

Phil: And that's when I just put it away.

Phil: Now, I've recently started using a notebook for games like this, like when I was playing Spiritfarer.

Phil: And the game that we were just talking about, the Golden Idol, the Case of the Golden Idol, I thought, oh yeah, I'll have to break out the notebook for this.

Phil: But you don't because of the tools they provide you are all there sort of thing.

Phil: You don't have to remember, oh, this guy was that or that guy was this.

Phil: So people are describing this as a notebook game.

Phil: It sounds tiresome to me.

Phil: But now that you've explained the gambling addiction components of it, that makes all the sense in the world.

Phil: The only thing I'm disappointed with the developer is that they didn't involve some sort of pay-to-win microtransactions.

Phil: That would have been pretty good.

Phil: I'd like to see Joe Blow, who apparently put all the money he made from Bastian, not Bastian.

Tom: Braid.

Phil: Braid into The Witness, and then The Witness was critically well-received and commercially well-received, but apparently still not good enough for what he was doing.

Phil: I'd like to see him revisit, like come back to Witness, but include these kinds of elements where people go, oh, this is too hard.

Phil: Just click here and there's a loot box, and there's a pretty good chance that you'll get the solution.

Phil: If you have the right sound effects, people will do it.

Phil: If you have those Poker Machine sound effects, I've seen my own daughter playing Candy Crush, or even Pac-Man Champion Edition, which she also loves because it's got that Pachinko soundtrack going on with sound effects and fireworks, and that's all she needs.

Phil: It's like, yeah, I'll get through this level.

Phil: I get fireworks.

Phil: I got fireworks.

Phil: My daughter doesn't sound like that, obviously.

Phil: But yeah, right.

Phil: So it sounds like you're more up on this game than I am.

Tom: I'm very much not up on the game, I would say.

Tom: I've got to talk about two more puzzles and how my playing of the game ended, which was very poetic indeed.

Tom: An example of one of the more complex puzzles, which again, I think goes to show, it is a notebook-taking game, but not so much a puzzle game in a sense.

Tom: So one of the permanent upgrades to the mansion you get is there, it unlocks an area where every day you can draft a room that gives you a bonus.

Tom: So one of these rooms opens out into an underground tomb, where there are a series of statues.

Tom: And if you open the series of statues in a certain order, they let you open another door, which takes you to another area.

Tom: To work out what order the statues are opened in, you look at the church in the mansion, which has the statues with Roman numerals next to them.

Tom: So the puzzle is essentially just noticing that the statues are there and that they've got a number against them.

Tom: Thus, you open them in a certain order.

Tom: So that's an example of one of the more complicated puzzles in the game.

Tom: It's still not, I would say, a particularly interesting puzzle.

Tom: Now, here's my major issue with the game, which just annoyed me throughout my playthrough.

Tom: So I went through there.

Tom: I went to the new area.

Tom: There was something I could move in that area.

Tom: I moved it a bit, not all the way, didn't know what to do with it, so then left.

Tom: Turns out at the end of the game, you've got to go to not that area, but you from the house end up in that area.

Tom: If you haven't moved that thing, you're stuck.

Tom: So after finally getting to nearly the end of the game, I discovered I had to move this fucking piece of shit thing and hadn't done it, which meant I would have to, before getting back to the place I had been, which was relying again on a reasonable amount of luck, get that other ****ing room, go back to it and move the ****ing thing.

Tom: So I thought, okay, I'm basically at the end of the game, I may as well do this.

Tom: I open the game the next morning to play it.

Tom: I get distracted by a YouTube video.

Tom: The game's on in the background at the main menu.

Tom: All of a sudden, the screen turns black and the intro begins playing.

Tom: I go back to the game, I skip the intro, I'm at day one.

Tom: I quit, I go to the main menu.

Tom: The only option is new game back to day one again.

Tom: So in the most brilliant moment of RNG, my save was overwritten when I was at the end of the game through completely inexplicable circumstances.

Phil: Are you sure it wasn't like a pretense that the game is put up?

Tom: I don't know because what do you mean?

Tom: If you leave it on the main menu.

Phil: You're sure it's not part of the game?

Tom: I don't think it's part of the game.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: You don't think that they do the thing where you just got to the end of the game, but you haven't quite finished it.

Phil: Now, the next time you go in, now they're going to pretend the game.

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: But if it was, I give them credit because I thought it was absolutely hilarious and the perfect note to end my Blue Prince experience on.

Phil: I've got to tell you my long experience of playing games for review.

Phil: Nothing pleases me more than when I get to the end of a tedious game and there's a glitch that gives me the ability to say, well, I couldn't finish it, so because of this glitch, I'm out.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's a good out.

Phil: It was a beautiful moment.

Phil: Any other points before you give this one a score?

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: I think I'm ready for the Diode Destiny to roll.

Phil: I am not going to use the Minifog on this one unless it is in extreme need of correction.

Phil: So give it a roll.

Tom: Gets a nine out of

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I'm breaking out the Minifog.

Phil: No, you're not walking out of here with a nine.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: This game got a two out of according to the Minifog of correction.

Tom: So it's just as good as the Oblivion Remaster.

Phil: Oh, come on now.

Tom: At this stage.

Phil: Not quite.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that's going to close out this episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been talking about video games online since

Phil: We've had the website since

Phil: So there's a lot of resource.

Tom: That's our slogan, I believe.

Tom: We've been talking about video games online since

Phil: Yeah, it's got some legs and it reflects our level of literary accomplishment.

Phil: The website has been up since and it's full of resources.

Phil: So visit gameunder.net if you'd like to listen to back issues or look at our reviews up there.

Phil: Or if you'd like to submit a question, just punch in a question on the comment section on their homepage.

Phil: That is the front page.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to and.

Phil: Thanks for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Game Under Podcast 169

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:07 Intro

0:01:43 News - Switch 2 Cold Takes

0:24:25 News - BAFTA Most Influential Games

0:32:27 News - Game Informer is Back

0:36:51 Indiana Jones and the Great Circle

0:53:56 There is No Game: Wrong Dimension

1:03:59 The Case of the Golden Idol

1:24:31 Feature - How it all started

Tom and Phil return to host Australia’s longest running video game podcast and talk over the latest video game news including Nintendo Switch 2 details, the return of Game Informer and the BAFTA most influential game poll. We also talk about the games we think are the most influential before going on to give our reviews of Indiana Jones and the Great Circle, There is No Game and the Case of the Golden Idol.

Finally, we revisit the How It All Started segment where we talk about the most relevant games in successful franchises, like Super Mario, Doom, Call of Duty, The Elder Scrolls and more.

Transcipt:
Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers, and I'm joined by Phil Fogg.

Phil: Hello, Tom.

Phil: How are you?

Tom: I'm good, but unfortunately we've got bad news for followers of the show.

Phil: Yes, yes, indeed.

Tom: We are going to have to be increasing the price of each episode, unfortunately.

Phil: Well, yes.

Phil: I mean, now this episode, however, is going to be free.

Phil: So if you've already downloaded it, if you've already downloaded it, we're not going to invoice you.

Tom: The good news is, the good news is we'll be keeping our sales policy, which is generally a % discount, but the price will be going up.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: And if we are actually going to be, are we going to be providing upgrades for better quality sound?

Phil: Like maybe $per show?

Tom: Yeah, I think so.

Tom: And we'll be able to download it at a higher bit rate.

Phil: I think it is probably time for us to change the model, the business model of the podcast.

Phil: Because we have been following the value for value model, which was started by John C.

Phil: Dvorak and Adam Curry of the No Agenda Podcast, where they get thousands of dollars in each episode from listeners, because they value the content that much, then they just give what they think the show is worth.

Phil: That hasn't been working out well for us at all.

Tom: Well, we've not been following that.

Tom: We've been following the nothing for value model.

Phil: Or possibly the, what is it, the vow of poverty?

Phil: Anyway, you know, money is what everyone's talking about.

Phil: So Nintendo, we'll go over the details here, not all the details, because the details are changing every hour.

Phil: And so by the time we record this and put it out, it'll probably be wrong again.

Phil: But Nintendo has released the sequel to the Switch, well, they've announced the sequel and they've shown it in a full hour long demonstration and all sorts of things.

Phil: And it seems to be a capable piece of hardware, seems to be pretty impressive, really.

Phil: And when you look at the specs on it, just comparing it, say, to the Steam Deck, which I'm completely enamored with, we'll just get through some of the technical specs there.

Phil: It's got a by screen, whereas the Steam Deck has by inch LCD compared to inch OLED on the Steam Deck.

Phil: Got a custom NVIDIA Processor, which can do Ray Tracing and DLSS.

Phil: And I'd be interested, and the Steam Deck has a AMD Zen -core -thread RDNA GPU.

Phil: Do you know what that, is that good?

Tom: It's good enough.

Tom: I think the CPU slash GPU in the Switch has to be significantly more powerful than that.

Tom: Given that it offers Ray Tracing, I think you'd be hard pressed to try Ray Tracing in most games on the Steam Deck.

Phil: Oh, that's for sure, yeah.

Phil: And in terms of RAM, Nintendo and Nvidia have not specified how much RAM is in it.

Phil: It's speculated that there is gigabytes compared to the Steam Deck gigabytes.

Phil: But, you know, we won't know that until someone buys it and takes it apart.

Phil: Storage, who cares?

Tom: And a proprietary console like the Switch would need less RAM anyway.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah, there's a lot less overhead with their Nintendo operating system.

Phil: Even though, you know, SteamOS...

Tom: Also known as NOS, I believe.

Phil: NOS, is that what it's called?

Phil: And then SteamOS is a Linux-based, of course.

Phil: So it's a lot less flabby than, say, Windows, for example.

Phil: But, yeah, it would be...

Phil: I think they're probably both going to be very efficient, but way more efficient than a Windows operating device.

Tom: I would presume it would be more efficient than Linux even.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: Because Linux is capable...

Tom: Well, SteamOS is Linux-based, I believe.

Phil: Yes, it is.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: So it's an OS designed to be able to do more things than NOS might be.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Video output, K at frames per second, that's docked.

Phil: And then compared to the Steam Deck, which does K at hertz or K at hertz.

Phil: So, you know, I mean, if you're looking at the hardware too, it looks pretty solid.

Phil: It looks a lot less flimsy than the current Switch.

Phil: It is the same width, which kind of annoys me.

Phil: I really don't like the thin feel of it, but maybe you're not having the the joy pads, you know, stretching around or make it feel a lot, you know, a lot firmer, a lot more substantial.

Phil: But all in all, from a hardware perspective, I thought it was pretty pretty impressive.

Phil: What did you think?

Tom: I think we're comparing it to the wrong console.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I think we should be comparing it to the PSPro and whatever the more powerful version of the Xbox is called.

Tom: Right.

Phil: Well, Nintendo themselves are comparing it to the PlayStation Pro in terms of its capabilities.

Tom: I think that's a questionable decision on their part, given the price that they're asking for it.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Because the price, I guess, when we come down to it, the price in...

Phil: Well, which price we...

Phil: The price for the hardware itself is...

Tom: The price for the hardware.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, in Australia, it's going to be Australian dollars.

Phil: So, bucks.

Phil: And if you could look up what the price of a PlayStation is, that would be great.

Tom: I believe the PSwhich is bundled with either Fortnite or Astrobot in its digital version, ranges from dollars to

Tom: And the CD version is to

Tom: And for some reason, the Fortnite version is more expensive than the Astrobot version.

Phil: Well, that's...

Phil: Yeah, that's the one.

Phil: I get it.

Phil: I get it.

Phil: That's going to be a lot more popular than Astrobot.

Phil: Not for me, but anyway.

Tom: And correction, I think they may actually both be digital version.

Tom: I'm going by JB Hi-Fi Price prices, and the way they've organized, it is a little bit confusing.

Tom: So a PSPro is as much as dollars.

Phil: That's what I thought.

Tom: So it's in the price range of the base PS

Phil: Well, right, right.

Phil: But see the Steam Deck in Australia, the entry level LCD is dollars, and it's for the OLED.

Phil: So for LCD, for OLED.

Phil: The Australian price is for the Switch

Tom: I would still be comparing it to the PSthough, and the Xbox.

Tom: I think that's its direct competitor more so than what is essentially a version of PC gaming, even though it is a handheld console.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: That's fair.

Phil: That is fair.

Phil: They are competing for the console space, because obviously when it comes to the games, in terms of value, you know, the PC is always going to provide a significant edge.

Phil: But if you're into console gaming, then yeah, that's probably true.

Phil: So, when you compare Australian dollars for the Switch compared to, well, I don't know that you could compare it to the PlayStation Pro, probably just the entry level PlayStation at bucks, I mean, that's comparable.

Tom: I think that's the logic behind their pricing.

Tom: I don't think the pricing has anything to do with inflation.

Tom: I don't think it has anything to do with how much the console is manufactured for.

Tom: I think when it comes to pricing something, you're going to be looking at what your competitor is selling it for and be wanting to price it at something that makes sense based on that.

Tom: And they're releasing it in between generations, so they don't want to be releasing it at a reasonable price in terms of what it's offering based on when a PSor whatever is going to come out.

Tom: They're going to be pricing it based on what their competitor is and they can't price it too low, so that it doesn't look like something old, like the original Switch.

Tom: That would be my hypothesis on the logic behind the pricing.

Phil: I think too, if you, from a value proposition, if I was Nintendo, I'd say, well, look, this is as powerful as the competition, but you can take it with you and it's something you can play on the go and it's a form factor that has worked very well for them.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: So you're still getting more for your money than if you were getting a PSof an equivalent price.

Phil: That's, in terms of the software, did you have a look at some of the games that they're showing there?

Tom: I did.

Tom: In terms of the software pricing, you mean?

Phil: Yeah, well, why don't we just talk about the games that are on offer?

Phil: I mean, I think it's again hard to get around the price, because the prices are different depending on the game that you're buying.

Phil: I think the stupidest thing I heard all week was charging $for the tutorial.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: I mean, that is just a known goal.

Phil: And as soon as I saw that, I remembered in Reggie Fee Ami's book how he was talking about how he got into the closest he'd ever gotten to an argument with Miyamoto, because they wanted to pack in Wii Sports as free when they released it in the United States.

Phil: And Miyamoto is like, well, no, why would we give it away for free?

Phil: We worked hard on it.

Phil: A lot of, you know, we went to a lot of trouble to make this thing.

Phil: We should be charging for it.

Phil: Which is sort of a weird way to look at it.

Phil: And so they went ahead and packed it in in North America.

Phil: They charged for it in Japan, however.

Phil: And yeah, so again, I think this is probably the same.

Phil: There's no one there to argue with anyone over this stuff anymore, but like $for a tutorial.

Phil: It's terrible messaging when you've got all these other things going on as well.

Tom: It's absolutely bizarre.

Tom: But on the other hand, I don't think the tutorial is going to have the impact of something like a Wii Sports anyway.

Phil: No, no, especially the one that they've shown.

Phil: It looked neat.

Phil: And when I was watching it live, I was like, oh, that looks pretty cool.

Phil: And then they get to the end and said, price to be announced later.

Phil: They're like, what?

Phil: Price to be announced later?

Phil: Donkey Kong and Mario Kart.

Phil: So Mario Kart World, forgetting about the pack-in, which is a little bit discounted, is $USD, which is $Australian.

Tom: Do we know how much it will actually cost here?

Phil: Well, Donkey Kong and Mario Kart, yes, we do.

Phil: They are selling it for $Australian dollars.

Phil: That's listed on Harvey Norman's website, for example, which, in comparable value, is only $USD.

Phil: You know, dollar for dollar, Australians are paying less than Americans.

Tom: But it's still a big increase from what Switch games usually cost, which is, I think, at RRP, about $

Phil: Yes, yeah.

Tom: And this is, there's no question what the cause of this is.

Tom: It's price gouging.

Phil: I, there's no, there's no other explanation.

Phil: It's no, especially for digital, digital stuff.

Phil: Like, they can't blame tariffs for that.

Phil: Because tariffs are not applied to, to software, like digital sales, for example.

Phil: This is just price gouging.

Phil: This percent.

Tom: And if it was tariffs, it's not Nintendo who will be setting the price.

Tom: It's the whoever is selling it in America because it's the American seller who is being taxed on it.

Phil: Well, the tax is being paid by the party who is importing it.

Phil: So the tariff is going on the party who is importing it.

Phil: So they would be the person who is selling it on to the, they would be the person who is selling it on to the retailers.

Tom: So you are saying Nintendo would be the one selling it on to the retailers.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: I am saying that Nintendo is the guys with the shipping containers that bring the games into the distribution centers in the US for example.

Phil: And then they sell it to Harvey Norman and JB Hi-Fi and Amazon and all the rest of it.

Phil: So they would be the ones paying the tariff.

Phil: But even so, okay, let's say that is a % tariff, then a $game would now be $which is why, you know, the $price bit.

Phil: I think that is just an excuse.

Phil: This is really just price gouging.

Tom: As is, as is arguably the base price already.

Phil: Yes, yeah.

Phil: And I think this, this is probably the most hubris we've seen from Nintendo since I don't know when.

Phil: Probably the Nintendo, like the original Nintendo, Nintendo era, once they had success with that.

Phil: Because, you know, this is right up there with, you'll get a second job to buy a PlayStation hubris after the success of PlayStation

Phil: And this is right up there with Don Matrix comment about, well, what if I'm on a US Marine sub and I don't have access to the internet?

Phil: How am I going to play my games?

Phil: And he said, well, for people who don't have internet, we have a system for you.

Phil: It's called the Xbox

Phil: These companies have, it's an oversimplification to say that these companies, after they've had tremendous success, you know, usually have some, a slump, you know, Switch is going to be the best-selling console of all time.

Phil: It's hard to follow that up.

Phil: But honestly, like, it's hard to stuff it up.

Phil: It looks like they've done a good job with the hardware.

Phil: But these prices for games, and being the leader of it, you know, I'm not the first one to say it.

Phil: I'm probably the millionth person to say it.

Phil: But now, if Rockstar has got to be considering, Take-Two has got to be considering, well, maybe we should charge $for Grand Theft Auto when we bring it out later this year.

Tom: I think the rumors were that they might be charging even more than that.

Tom: Because those rumors, I think, preceded the announcement of Switch pricing.

Phil: Well, there was an analyst who was saying that they should.

Phil: So that has been out there.

Phil: I don't know that...

Tom: And I think they'll both get away with it.

Tom: But again, reading comments and even media commentary on these prices, the amount of people defending it is, to me, just astounding.

Tom: And a complete reversal in attitudes by consumers and by media compared to even years ago.

Phil: Oh, yeah, definitely.

Phil: Hey, so like, that's how the apologists are all saying.

Phil: And it's a compelling argument.

Phil: You know, hey, well, this is Mario Kart.

Phil: You know, you're going to be playing it for the next to years.

Phil: bucks, you know, that's really a bargain when you look at it like that.

Phil: So if you came back to when Gran Turismo was at its peak, if Polyphony Digital had said, look, you know, you remember the fantastic work they did for every Gran Turismo.

Phil: They basically replicated every car on the planet down to how it sounded and handled and the whole thing.

Phil: You go, well, yeah, I mean, that's a tremendous value.

Phil: If Gran Turismo, a game that you like, made the same sort of value proposition, would you be like, yeah, I get it.

Phil: It's a lot of work.

Tom: No way.

Phil: You wouldn't be for it?

Tom: No, definitely not.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I mean, like when I look at some RPGs that I played, like Animal Crossing is not an RPG, but like you look at Animal Crossing, you go, wow, I put plus hours into this game.

Phil: You know, I'd like to give them, give the developer something more back.

Phil: But, you know, I guess Nintendo is saying, well, you know, it's because of all the extra work that goes into it.

Phil: This is why we're going to have this variable pricing.

Phil: You know, a lot of work went into this.

Phil: It costs a lot of money to make.

Phil: But then you look at it and you go, well, how much do you think Grand Theft Auto is costing to make?

Phil: It's just not an argument.

Tom: The argument doesn't make sense in the first place because they're not producing some sort of artisanal product.

Tom: They're producing a mass-producible product which creates extra value on supposedly more effort by being sold more because there's essentially no cost in or an extremely low cost in printing the product again and again.

Phil: Also, you could make the opposite argument.

Phil: You look at a game like, what's the flow, the Children of Light game, for example.

Phil: Development costs on that are going to be way lower than say on Fortnite.

Phil: Even development costs on Fortnite, well, they kind of overdo it, but it's not going to be on the same level as like a Call of Duty type thing.

Phil: But people go, well, we didn't put that much effort into this game.

Phil: It doesn't really cost us that much to keep the servers going.

Phil: So we're only going to charge $

Phil: It's just inane.

Phil: You see the chat tool they've added, basically video chat.

Tom: Which you are apparently going to have to start paying for in the future, rendering one of the buttons on the controller completely useless if you don't.

Phil: Yes, it's the first button on a console that you have to pay to use in the history of gaming.

Phil: I think, yeah, probably.

Phil: Yeah, maybe unless someone's had like an Xbox Live button or something like that.

Phil: But yeah, they're going to start charging for that after a year.

Phil: And I guess probably, I don't know if this is piling on or not, but you know, the upgrades to the Switch games.

Phil: I was expecting that I just put a Switch game in and it would look better because, you know, it's running on a Switch, it's running on better hardware.

Phil: But they're actually charging between and dollars depending on the amount of work that goes into the visual fidelity upgrades.

Phil: So again, that's just a puzzling again.

Phil: It's just, it's too complicated.

Phil: It's too complicated.

Tom: Do you have to pay for, I thought you had to pay for upgrades on PSand Xbox games.

Phil: There was something, there was some games where you could pay to basically play it on your PlayStation

Phil: So if you already had it on the last consoles, for you to play it on the current consoles, yeah, there was something like you paid a bucks and then, you know, it was automatically, you know, just looked better because you're playing it on better hardware.

Tom: But you still had to pay to play the upgraded version.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: And again, you don't, you can still put your Switch game into the Switch and just play it.

Phil: You don't have to pay just to have that benefit.

Phil: So I think that's probably piling on a little bit.

Phil: But again, it's just adding to the confusion.

Phil: And then a whole bunch of Switch games won't boot, by the way.

Phil: So they were talking about how the games will be compatible, but there's hundreds of them that just do not boot.

Phil: And Nintendo says they're looking in two ways around that.

Phil: So that's basically it.

Phil: I think, for me, the hardware is good.

Phil: I like the hardware pricing.

Phil: The hardware pricing is fine with me.

Phil: But the game model just doesn't work for me.

Phil: And that's really across the board with consoles right now.

Phil: Yeah, I'm just not enthusiastic about lining up to pay $every time I get a game.

Tom: I would presume it will be at least $

Tom: Or did you say we have the price confirmed for Australia?

Phil: Yeah, we have the price confirmed for Donkey Kong and Mario Kart at $Australian dollars.

Phil: And as we know through this show, if every game you bought was a complete banger and gave you tremendous value, that, you know, okay, well, $I'd probably just limit my buying to games a year.

Phil: But as you and I both know, not every game is a banger and there's not a lot of options for getting that value back once you want to get rid of that game.

Phil: So where does your enthusiasm level lie with this?

Phil: Could this potentially be the first Nintendo console you don't buy?

Tom: I think there have been multiple Nintendo consoles I haven't bought.

Tom: Although since the GameCube I have had most of them.

Tom: But there's absolutely no way I'm spending $on an LCD screened Switch.

Phil: Yeah, that was a bit of a letdown too, the LCD as opposed to OLED.

Tom: I think Nintendo games, I'm not interested in them for the power of them in terms of impressive graphics or anything like that.

Tom: And Mario Kart, I've seen a lot of people say doesn't look very impressive, but I think it looks pretty phenomenal when you consider how much detail there is in everything on the screen and the number of characters on the screen as well.

Tom: I think it's actually technically very, very impressive, but will that make Mario Kart significantly more fun than it was previously?

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: And I think that applies to most Nintendo games.

Phil: Yeah, I can still play Mario Kart on the DS.

Phil: And it's just as fun as playing Mario Kart on Wii U or on the Switch.

Phil: Like, it's, you know, it's, it's not that...

Phil: I'm not there for the graphics.

Phil: I can still play it.

Phil: I regularly play it on the Wii U.

Phil: And there's nothing wrong with it.

Phil: It looks fine.

Phil: It's good, you know.

Phil: It did look spectacular, though.

Phil: I mean, I really like the look of Mario Kart World.

Tom: I was very impressed by it.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, it was good.

Tom: But the only game that I would really want to play is Metroid Prime and there will be a Switch version of that.

Phil: Yes, yeah.

Phil: What did you think?

Phil: How did it look to you?

Tom: It looked like Metroid Prime.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, enough.

Phil: I guess, Nintendo, if we have to put a bow on it, I'm going to say it seems like the hardware is good value.

Phil: I'm not excited about the software and what that means for my future of buying Nintendo games.

Phil: But, you know, honestly, I've probably only been buying it, well, for my own interest, there's certainly some Nintendo games I'm interested in.

Phil: But then also for my child, you know, I could see myself buying three or four games a year.

Phil: But, you know, at some point, they're going to bring out a Steam Deck, too.

Phil: And she's just going to have my Steam Deck, you know.

Phil: So and then she can play a whole sea of games.

Phil: But yeah, they won't have Princess Peach or Mario in them.

Phil: Story number two, Bafta.

Phil: This was a story.

Phil: Did you hear the story about Bafta's most influential game list?

Tom: I heard that Shenmue won it.

Phil: Yeah, that's it.

Phil: And this isn't this wasn't like an official proclamation from Bafta.

Phil: They basically polled their members and said, hey, you know, just submit what you think is the most influential game.

Phil: So more people listed Shenmue as the most influential game of all time, which was the Dreamcast game made by Yu Suzuki.

Phil: It's probably the I mean, in terms of influence, it it's slightly influenced Yakuza.

Phil: You know, now the Like a Dragon series.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I mean, I'd be interested to know what games you think are the most influential, but we'll just go through the list quickly.

Phil: Might give you some inspiration.

Phil: Number one is Shenmue.

Phil: Number two is Doom.

Phil: Number three, Super Mario Brothers.

Phil: Four, the original Half-Life.

Phil: Five, Ocarina of Time.

Phil: Six, Minecraft.

Phil: Seven, Kingdom Come Deliverance

Phil: Have you heard of Kingdom Come Deliverance ?

Tom: Yes, I have.

Tom: I've not heard of its massive influence, though.

Phil: It came out three months ago.

Phil: So, you've got to give it a break, you know.

Phil: I'm thinking that there may have been some ballot stuffing here with the development team from Kingdom Come Deliverance

Phil: Number Super Mario number Half-Life

Phil: Apparently, Half-Life is so influential.

Tom: Doubly so.

Phil: Yeah, it influenced Half-Life

Phil: Number The Sims, Eleven Tetris, Twelve Tomb Raider, Pong, Metal Gear Solid, World of Warcraft, Baldur's Gate a game that came out last year.

Phil: Final Fantasy VII, Dark Souls, Grand Theft Auto Skyrim, and then Grand Theft Auto, the original.

Phil: That's your top

Phil: I don't think Shenmue is a very influential game at all.

Phil: I don't see it as being influential whatsoever.

Tom: In terms of direct mechanics or structure, you would have to say no.

Tom: Other than on Yakuza.

Tom: But there is another element to influence, which would be inspiration.

Tom: And I have seen numerous developers say they were highly inspired by it.

Tom: So I don't know about the most influential video game of all time, but I think one of the most influential an argument could certainly be made.

Phil: I think you'd put it in the top

Phil: I guess it was actually more groundbreaking than that.

Phil: It was more groundbreaking than that.

Phil: It was, you know, would you say it sort of got you there for the open world stuff?

Phil: But, you know, if you look at games like WoW, they're even more open world than Shenmue.

Tom: I think it's not about it being open world.

Tom: It's about it attempting to present a tangible and realistic portrayal of everyday life.

Tom: Which I think is groundbreaking for the time.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: I think, but keep in mind that Dreamcast came after the PlayStation by about five or six years.

Phil: Maybe, yeah, five or six years.

Phil: And there was games on the PlayStation like Tale of the Sun, which is a notoriously bad game that I actually didn't mind.

Phil: Where you basically, you've got to look it up.

Phil: It's a ridiculous game.

Phil: I think I've written a review of it somewhere.

Phil: But like it is a mundane, like it is a very mundane game.

Phil: You're basically out in the wilderness and you have to survive.

Phil: And there's barely anything to do.

Phil: And the time moves in real time.

Phil: I think if you have to be other games on the PlayStation that got to this same sort of thing.

Phil: I mean, if you look at the depth of the game, like being able to open a drawer and look inside of it and see stuff.

Phil: I guess you could say that sort of had an impact on Deus Ex.

Phil: But I don't even know that Shenmue predated Deus Ex or System Shock and all those sorts of games.

Tom: I think they predated it.

Phil: There's got to be some PC games that hit on the same stuff.

Tom: There are a lot of Japanese PSgames with similar ideas, but I don't think they were structurally quite different and were usually more focused on family.

Tom: So doing that in a blockbuster sort of video game, I still would give it credit for being ground breaking.

Phil: So what game would you say is the most influential?

Tom: I would probably go with Pong.

Phil: Pong.

Tom: Pong.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I considered Pong.

Phil: Why would you say it's influential?

Tom: I think Pong, there are other examples, but that's probably the biggest and most successful early video game where it's to use a cliché that is inapplicable most of the time and here I think is beautifully inapplicable, was a visceral experience.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, okay.

Phil: Look, it's obviously, it was the first time, you know, other than the Odyssey, where you could be playing games on TV.

Phil: So it basically would have been the most influential because you would have had thousands of people around the planet going, hey, I can do something with this TV that's interactive.

Phil: Like we can do stuff with this.

Phil: So yeah, so I see its influence there.

Phil: I'd probably make an argument for Doom because the first-person shooter genre is still dominant and Doom was the first one to really, well, I don't have to tell you what Doom did.

Phil: I think Doom is-

Tom: Did you go for Doom or Wolfenstein though?

Phil: I'd go for Doom just because Wolfenstein, Wolfenstein was pretty good though.

Phil: Yeah, and it still is.

Phil: It's funny when you go back and play Wolfenstein now because you're like, how do I jump?

Phil: How do I aim?

Phil: Because you're not really aiming and you're not really aiming in Doom either, I guess.

Tom: And instead of Doom, you've got to pick Doom or Wolfenstein for influence.

Tom: I think you've got to go for Wolfenstein for the non-modern version of first-person shooters.

Tom: If you go for modern first-person shooters, I think you've got to go for Quake.

Tom: So I think it's an argument between Wolfenstein or Quake.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Phil: Yeah, so, um, other influential games...

Phil: I actually thought about Space Invaders.

Tom: So did I, but then I thought everything that makes Space Invaders visceral is all set out in Pong.

Tom: Yeah, you've got the immediate tactile bleeps and bloops and instant feedback.

Phil: Anyway, so just want to say that was not the official Bafta, like, it is their list, they put it out there.

Phil: But it was really just a poll of their membership, not a declarative, hey, these, you know, we're giving an award to Shenmue for the most influential game of all time.

Phil: Maybe they will, who knows.

Phil: A final story, I don't know if you heard about this, this is a couple of weeks ago now, credit for this one goes to gamespot.com.

Phil: Game Informer is back.

Phil: So Game Informer, if you don't know, was a, I'd say a second string, maybe even a third string, video game website.

Phil: It was, to my knowledge, the last published video game magazine to come out of the US.

Phil: And it was owned by GameStop.

Phil: And then GameStop, or stopped it, and gutted it, you know, basically shut it down.

Phil: They didn't sell it.

Phil: But the business was shut down in August and the magazine has returned under new ownership.

Phil: Gunzilla Games acquired the rights to Game Informer, and brought back the entire editorial team, and also the technical team as well.

Phil: So everyone who is working there on the last day in August of has come back and is working for the organization.

Phil: So they're not just doing a website.

Phil: They are going to bring back a physical magazine as well.

Phil: So, yeah, and Gunzilla, they're, I had never heard of them.

Phil: They're currently working on a Battle Royale game called Off the Grid.

Phil: So you go, I can't, okay, first of all, this is seemingly good news.

Phil: They're going to have editorial freedom to do what they wish.

Phil: But, like, I just don't know.

Phil: I've never heard of this company that's bringing them back.

Tom: I haven't heard of them either.

Phil: No, or their game and an upcoming Battle Royale game.

Phil: Good luck.

Phil: I mean, welcome to six years ago, you know, or seven years ago.

Phil: So it had to be-

Tom: years ago with a magazine.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It had to have been pretty compelling to have every single person come back.

Phil: But it doesn't, it's not like if I had a decent job somewhere else and then I'm told, hey guy, you know, come back to the old job.

Phil: We're getting the whole team together again.

Phil: And, and this company is called Godzilla is going to fund it.

Phil: Oh yeah.

Phil: And who are they?

Phil: They haven't released any games yet, but they're a game company and it's going to be a battle.

Phil: Battle, we're going to battle.

Tom: It's the hot new thing.

Phil: The name of the game is off the grid.

Phil: I think Game Informer is going to be off the grid.

Phil: In six months' time.

Phil: I mean, look, it's good.

Phil: I mean, it is legitimately good news, if not for the fact that they were able to bring back the entire archive of the website and magazine archive.

Phil: You know, it hasn't been lost to the ages.

Tom: This has got to be some sort of scheme, surely.

Tom: Let's look at, on the Gunzilla website and here's where their funding comes from.

Phil: Russian Mafia.

Tom: They've got million dollars of funding from Coin Fund, Avalanche's Blizzard Fund and Republic Capital and Morningstar Ventures.

Tom: As well as previously unreported equity and validator sales.

Phil: Yes, so they have studios in Frankfurt, Kiev and London.

Tom: This has got to be some sort of money laundering scheme, I think so.

Phil: Oh, this is great.

Phil: I almost said this.

Phil: Their upcoming game Off the Grid is a cyberpunk themed Battle Royale that integrates blockchain technology.

Phil: There we go.

Phil: So, yeah, this might not be good news for the Game Informer team, but on its face, good for them.

Phil: I mean, they got the whole team back together, which is amazing in this day and age.

Tom: Well, it's free money for them, probably from drugs and other such things, but they'll be getting paid, I presume.

Phil: I guess it has to be, like if you had to launder money, what better front do you have than a print publication?

Phil: Yeah, we put all the money in here and the magazines come out the other end, and profits.

Phil: Okay, so, do you want to get into what we've been playing?

Tom: We may as well.

Phil: Okey-doke.

Phil: Do you want to lead off?

Tom: Well, I finally finished Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.

Phil: The Great Circle?

Phil: I thought it was called Indiana Jones and the Hole Punch.

Tom: That's one of its names, I believe.

Phil: Okay, because when I read the show notes, I wasn't sure if the Hole Punch was a separate game that you played.

Tom: It's one of the ways you can make a perfect circle on a map.

Tom: You can use a hole punch.

Phil: Excellent.

Tom: Or you can find ancient artifacts.

Phil: Is that part of the game?

Tom: Unfortunately not.

Tom: They chose to find ancient artifacts to be able to do this.

Phil: Okay, fair enough.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Everyone knows about this game.

Phil: You've been playing it on Game Pass presumably.

Phil: Correct.

Phil: Machine games.

Phil: Does this add to their legacy?

Phil: Because they've got a pretty good legacy.

Phil: You know, with the Wolfenstein games, they've built a pretty good reputation for themselves.

Tom: And Chronicles of Riddick in their previous incarnation as well.

Phil: I don't know that we get to count that, but you know.

Tom: I think it's a cult classic.

Phil: Oh, no, no, no.

Phil: Don't get me wrong.

Phil: Chronicles of Riddick is fantastic.

Phil: It is.

Phil: That is.

Phil: Talk about influence.

Phil: That is an influential game.

Phil: But I'm just saying, I'm not sure that we can give machine games credit for that.

Phil: Just because a lot of them did come over from Starbreeze.

Phil: It's, you know, it's still not a machine games game.

Tom: That is true.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But I would still bring it up in discussions.

Phil: For sure.

Phil: As we have.

Phil: As we have.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So yeah.

Phil: So the last time we talked, you'd gotten out of the Vatican and you were in Egypt, and you thought it was pretty blind.

Phil: And I said, no, no, no.

Phil: Just wait.

Phil: Just wait.

Phil: You're going to go to Bangkok.

Phil: You're going to go to China and, you know, that's got to be something that...

Phil: I don't remember going to China before in a game.

Phil: So it's got to be something, you know, it's going to be something about this.

Tom: The Shadowrun Hong Kong, I believe.

Phil: Yeah, Hong Kong.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You went to mainland China, didn't you?

Tom: I haven't.

Tom: I think one of the most flagrant instances of the Game Under Podcast being copied is the fact that an American YouTuber, one of the largest American YouTubers of today, iShowSpeed, barely a month after I returned from China, was on his own tour of China.

Tom: And I can't help but wonder where he got that idea from.

Phil: Well, we haven't disclosed to our listeners that you went to China, but that's how dedicated you were about playing Indiana Jones.

Tom: I think that's one of the most shocking things about this instances of plagiarism.

Tom: One of us must have accidentally invited him into our telegram group, I can only presume.

Phil: Well yeah, probably.

Phil: It's probably this Craig thing that we've got here, recording all of our conversations.

Phil: Okay, so, Indiana Jones, tell me about it.

Phil: Tell me about China.

Phil: Tell me about Hong Kong, Bangkok, whatever.

Tom: I think it's Shanghai.

Phil: You went to Shanghai, okay.

Phil: And was it cool?

Tom: Indiana Jones, I went to Shanghai.

Phil: Yeah, was it cool?

Tom: It was okay.

Tom: I think they noticed how bland and boring the Egypt section was, so they didn't bother doing a normal Explore the Area section and basically had a series of action set pieces and some QTEs for you to play through in the setting of Shanghai.

Tom: And then after that, you end up in Thailand in I think Sukhothai.

Phil: Well, was any of this mildly racist or couldn't be in a game made in ?

Tom: It wasn't racist, but when you get to Sukhothai and you're interacting with the Thai people, it becomes very apparent that while they have altered the skin tones and the facial features of the characters, they're using the same dimensions for the skeleton, skeletons of the character models, creating a rather surreal and bizarre effect.

Phil: What do you mean?

Tom: Like...

Tom: They're the same proportions and same heights, if I remember correctly, as the characters from other countries.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, alright.

Phil: And did it spice up the game?

Tom: I think...

Tom: the only interesting part of the Shanghai section was the fact that the Geyser section had been so bland and uninteresting.

Tom: But Sukhothai, I think, was a return to form and enough that I was glad to continue playing it, because it structurally was similar to Geyser and the Vatican and would not have been interesting if they didn't copy the Wind Waker and make exploration boat-based.

Tom: So you are essentially in a swamp setting where you sail through the swamp, sorry, row through the swamp from island to island, much in the vein of the Wind Waker in a miniaturized form.

Phil: That sounds cool.

Tom: I enjoyed it.

Tom: The exploration isn't as interesting in terms of detailed complexity as the Vatican or setting probably, but doing it by boat shakes it up enough that it's interesting.

Tom: And the tombs you're exploring are a lot more interesting than the ones in Giza.

Tom: They contain more interesting puzzles and once again are much more Zelda-like.

Tom: Again, no doubt due to the Wind Waker's influence.

Phil: So, did they introduce any new gameplay elements other than rowing a boat?

Tom: In terms of the puzzles they do, there are cogwheel puzzles where you've got to get gears in a certain order and there's a chess puzzle, which I don't believe occurred earlier on in the game.

Tom: So, they introduced new puzzle mechanics essentially.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, and how do they wrap it all up?

Phil: I mean, obviously, you're going all around the world, you're collecting this stuff, you're trying to solve the Great Circle mystery or whatever.

Phil: Do they bring it together?

Phil: Does it work?

Phil: Or does it feel like a game with five different levels and then a cut scene and credits?

Tom: End up in Iraq after Sukhothai.

Phil: Oh, cool.

Tom: I think the climax of the game is enjoyable enough.

Tom: I think the big issue with the game in terms of the narrative and coming up with a satisfying ending, and I'm not sure anyone else who has played the game agrees with me.

Tom: But it grew worse and worse as the game continued was the complete soullessness and lack of charisma of Indiana Jones, which I think is exemplified in Sukhothai by the fact where at one point you are separated from your female sidekick.

Tom: They realize Indiana Jones himself is adding so little to the narrative that with being unable to come up with a way that makes sense for her to be able to accompany you through the dungeon you are exploring, they introduce a totally random female character to accompany you for a single dungeon who is never seen from or heard of again after that point.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: That's extreme.

Tom: So it's essentially a game without a protagonist, which takes away from the villain's final moments and the fact that he's, instead of having some showdown with Gina, your female companion, which might have been narratively somewhat interesting, he's having it with a character who doesn't exist instead, which is a great disappointment because he's been an entertaining villain throughout the game.

Phil: Do you think that when you said that it's a game that lacks a protagonist, is that because of the first-person perspective that you feel?

Phil: Like, if you look at Chronicles of Riddick, which is a first-person action game, and you look at this game which is first-person by design, though I think you can shift it to third-person whenever you want, I think.

Phil: Do you think that disembodiment is what's happening there in your mind, where you're going, well, I can't see the guy, so he's not there, you know?

Phil: And then doing that, perhaps, because they want you to be Indiana Jones.

Phil: So they don't want you to be watching or moving Indiana Jones.

Phil: They want you to be Indy.

Tom: I don't think so, and especially not from machine games.

Tom: I think in the case of Wolfenstein, the best character in those, at least the first one, I haven't played the other ones, but in the first game was, without a question, the protagonist, BJ.

Tom: Blazkowicz, and all of the other characters played off him.

Phil: Yeah, I'd love to play that game again, now that you've said that.

Phil: I was not a fan of the second one, by the way, or even the spin-off, which has his daughters in it, though it had its moment.

Phil: I just thought there was way too much walking and talking in the second game, just so you know.

Phil: Okay, so do you think that at least from their perspective, their philosophy was, hey, we want you to be indie, so we're just going to get out of the way and make this character less of a character?

Phil: Or do you think this is just a disconnect somewhere in terms of the directing of Troy Baker?

Phil: Or?

Tom: I think it's the decision to have a as technically accurate a copy of Harrison Ford's performance as possible, instead of either adding something to the character themselves or having the actor add something to the character themselves.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: I think for the sort of character it is, that's absolutely not the way to go.

Phil: I think it's in a tough position, because the name of the game is Indiana Jones, and so who do you think of?

Phil: You think of Harrison Ford.

Phil: I think if they had not used Harrison Ford's image and voice as a reference, I don't know that it translates.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I don't know.

Tom: Well, commercially they definitely made the right decision.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But I think for me, it makes the narrative significantly weaker than it should have been, considering how good the villain was and the moments the villain had with the supporting cast members at times.

Tom: And I would also add, I think it's not the sort of writing they've demonstrated themselves to be good at in previous games as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That's a very good point.

Phil: So what about technical chops?

Phil: I mean, do you see this and you go, wow, you know, these guys know how to make a video game?

Tom: I think it's a lot more janky than Wolfenstein was.

Tom: It's certainly not a mechanically satisfying experience as Wolfenstein was at all.

Tom: The shooting feels generally pretty weak.

Tom: The platforming is very janky, but it makes up for that with the charm of the structure of the Vatican and Egypt.

Tom: Not so much in Giza, but that's still two-thirds of the game where they're making up for the questionable mechanics at times.

Tom: And it works in the sense that by making all of the mechanics less complex and interesting, or that they then all blend together in a easily manageable way.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, it sounds to me like there's enough there for me to want to play the game.

Phil: Would I be an idiot to play this game?

Tom: I would highly recommend you play it.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Hang it to the list.

Phil: Is that all you've got to say about Indie?

Tom: I think that probably covers it.

Tom: Overall, I'm glad I played it to the end.

Tom: I think it's worth sticking through the less interesting moments, for sure.

Tom: And the one thing I would add is the one area of the game that is mechanically satisfying, except it is only useful for a minigame, is the melee combat.

Tom: With the way the battles play out in normal combat out in the world, you don't need to be doing blocking or dodging or anything like that.

Tom: You either stealth people to death or gather them all together in a row of idiotic IA that you can just bludgeon over the head with a large weapon in the one attack.

Tom: But there is a boxing minigame which is quite challenging and very satisfying once you figure out the timing of blocking and dodging and your own melee attacks.

Tom: So mechanically, that is definitely a highlight and enjoyable in a similar sense to the shooting in Wolfenstein.

Phil: Final question for you.

Phil: If this was not called Indiana Jones, if this was called Daytona Smith, and it was an original character, not Indiana Jones, didn't have the sweeping soundtrack of John Williams and all that nostalgia and pastiche of Indiana Jones' world, would it have been a better game perhaps?

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: I think other than the protagonist, they use the Indiana Jones aesthetic, music, and even the story very well.

Tom: It's really just an issue to me anyway, the approach they took with the character of Indiana Jones himself.

Tom: And I think there is more to Indiana Jones than simply the character.

Phil: Oh, for sure.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: I would say that brings an end to our indie games coverage, but I have been playing in...

Tom: We're not finished with Indiana Jones just yet, as the Die of Destiny has not been rolled.

Phil: Oh, excellent.

Phil: I'll get my mini-Fogg figure ready to countermand your...

Phil: Just do what you do.

Tom: Unfortunately, however, unfortunately, however, I cannot find the Die of Destiny.

Tom: So what we're going to do instead is spin a wheel with a value of to on it.

Phil: Where'd you get a wheel with a value of to on it?

Tom: From pickerwheel.com.

Phil: Oh, a virtual wheel.

Tom: A virtual wheel.

Phil: Why didn't you go to randomnumbergenerator.com?

Tom: Because we're talking about Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.

Tom: Oh, okay.

Phil: Alright.

Phil: Fair enough.

Phil: Alright.

Phil: Spin your wheel.

Phil: See if it's more accurate than your stupid die destiny.

Tom: And Indiana Jones receives a out of

Phil: Okay, I'm going to roll the mini-fog of truth.

Phil: And it says, you gave it actually a out of

Tom: I think that's too high.

Phil: You do?

Phil: Would you go for a ?

Tom: What did I give Uncharted ?

Tom: Did I give that a or a out of ?

Phil: I'll ask AI, what did Tom Towers give Uncharted ?

Phil: See what comes up.

Phil: Okay, Uncharted Uncharted

Phil: You gave it, score coming soon.

Phil: So you talked about it in episode

Tom: I think I might have given it an out of

Tom: And apparently I gave the original Uncharted a out of

Tom: And I gave from memory Uncharted a out of

Tom: To which I think you responded, you're an idiot, I think.

Tom: So I think taking into account Uncharted I don't know if I could give it more than that but maybe.

Tom: So it's in the range maybe of a reasonable score.

Phil: Okay, well, game I've been playing and have finished is called There is No Game, Wrong Dimension.

Phil: This is a game that's developed and published by a very small team of people called Draw Me a Pixel.

Phil: It is a point and click adventure game.

Phil: Now you're into these point and click adventure games, aren't you?

Phil: This is basically, it's available for, it just came out, it just came out.

Phil: I just, this game, I thought this game just came out.

Phil: It got released for Windows in so it's been around for a while.

Phil: And basically, it's like an interactive story.

Phil: And you're, it's very meta.

Phil: So right from the very start, you start the game and there's a computer talking to you and saying, hey, just go away, there's no game.

Phil: Okay?

Phil: We're sorry, we didn't get the funding we needed.

Phil: You've been scammed, you bought this game.

Phil: It's not really a game.

Phil: So there's no game, so just go away.

Phil: And so you're stuck there staring at a screen and basically, you've got limited ways to interact with it.

Phil: So you just have to figure out yourself how to progress this game.

Phil: And you literally have to break the game.

Phil: Like you have to, if there's a circle, for example, up in the top right-hand corner that appears to be a spotlight or something, you've got to figure out a way to smash that off so that you can use it as a coin to unscrew some, you know, some screws which will give you access to the back of the computer and then you can start mucking around with it sort of thing.

Phil: So there's six different levels and they're all differently themed.

Phil: And I think, yeah, I'm not a point and click enthusiast.

Phil: I didn't, I went into this game completely blind.

Phil: I just heard a lot of good things about it and I thought, okay, well, it's on sale.

Phil: I'll pick it up.

Phil: And it breaks the fourth wall definitely, like right from the start.

Phil: But then even as you get into the game deeper and deeper, there is actually a twist in the later chapters where I'm not going to spoil.

Phil: But it does, I can guarantee that it does get more interesting as the game goes on.

Phil: It's not just a homage to, you know, point and click games.

Phil: The first level is pretty creative and it's really more of a tutorial.

Phil: The worst part about this game for me is that the second level was severe homage to Lucas Ames, Lucas Games point and click adventures.

Phil: To the point where I was like, f**k this game.

Phil: I am not going to play this game.

Phil: I had my phone open the whole time, just going, what do I do next?

Phil: Just tell me what to do next.

Phil: It was so infuriatingly illogical.

Phil: They do have a system.

Tom: Do you have any examples?

Phil: No.

Phil: It's just stupid, inane things like drag the chicken onto the power cord because that's going to do this, that or the other.

Phil: It's like, okay.

Phil: Well, if the name of the game is just basically combine every illogical element until something happens.

Tom: Maybe we are meant to be electrifying or electrocuting the chicken.

Phil: It doesn't matter.

Phil: I just made that up.

Tom: That's perfectly logical.

Phil: I think that's where some point-and-click adventure games fall down, where if you can't get into the mind of the person who's creating it, or you haven't lived the life of the person who's creating it, you don't know all those stupid little in-jokes and stuff.

Phil: At the same time, you don't want to make these things so obvious that the person doesn't feel smart for solving the problem.

Phil: I mean, when you have these puzzles and games, a big part of it is making the person feel good about solving, getting to the solution.

Phil: So, they do have an out for this.

Phil: So basically, there is a hint section, and you can go, okay, just give me a hint, and they'll give you a hint.

Phil: And it will be pretty vague, but then you'll be like, oh yeah, of course, it's right there in front of me.

Phil: It's a three-stage hint system, where then, you can then reveal a second and a third.

Phil: The third clue is typically just telling you exactly what to do.

Phil: I didn't need that in most sections of the game other than to get me through the LucasArts section.

Phil: And it was a real shame, because I could see what they were doing.

Phil: They're starting up with a tutorial, then they're going to what I call severe homage of one of the most well-liked developers of this type of game.

Phil: So you can't really blame them for that.

Phil: But after that, they go through a fairly lengthy presentation of a Zelda Link to the Past type game for the Super Nintendo.

Phil: It's not an RPG, you're still trying to break the game to advance the character and make him do what he needs to do.

Phil: And it was a pretty wry satire of Zelda on top of that.

Phil: And then the chapter after that is basically going back through that level again, but now it's been glitched.

Phil: And so you're having a second run-through.

Phil: So it was kind of a, okay, I had a tutorial, then I had a really bad experience with the game that I wanted to throw away.

Phil: That's really on me, not them.

Phil: Then they have a Legend of Zelda level, which is enjoyable.

Phil: But then one of the things I hate the most is going back through the same level again for the next level.

Phil: And it wasn't until I really get into the fourth, fifth and sixth levels where I was like, oh, this is fantastic.

Phil: It really started to click.

Phil: And then, like I said, there's a pretty weird twist towards the end of the game that makes it pretty delicious.

Phil: And it's done in such a bad way that you're not sure that they're meaning to do it that way or, you know, because they're not English speakers natively.

Phil: You're not quite sure if they think what they're doing is good, but it's not good or is that beard supposed to look like a real beard sort of thing?

Phil: So yeah, I don't really want to spoil it much more than I already have.

Phil: But ultimately, by the end of the game, I was like, okay, you know, for a genre that I don't enjoy, it was a passable experience.

Phil: And as I said, it was meta as all hell.

Phil: There was no fourth wall left at the end of this game whatsoever.

Phil: And again, I think it's a game I'm going to remember, which is probably the highest compliment I can pay a game these days.

Tom: So you said it switches to a Zelda-like sort of gameplay.

Phil: Yeah, top-down.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: Does it change to other genres or is it just point-and-click and Zelda?

Phil: Well, the Zelda game is still point-and-click, so you still have to break elements of the game to make it work.

Phil: So it never changes.

Phil: The gameplay itself never changes from point-and-click.

Phil: It's just that the point-and-click options, you often have to look at things like things in the graphical user interface.

Phil: How do I break this part off of the graphical user interface so that I can use it to muck around with the game sort of thing?

Phil: Yeah, and there's one really good level where they tell you, okay, the game is over and here's the credits.

Phil: And you're like, okay, well, I got ripped off, but all right, that's fine.

Phil: But then you have to figure out there's a way, a very creative way that develops and builds on itself, where you have to figure out how to break the credits to continue the game.

Phil: And that was the absolute best level.

Phil: I mean, like, if I could send you that level by itself somehow and go just play this, yeah, that's the very best part of the game.

Phil: And I thought it was super cool and creative.

Phil: And that's, I think when I said it started to click, that's when it really started to click.

Phil: It was like, okay, I'm real, you know, I'm understanding what they're asking for here.

Phil: And I found that to be enjoyable.

Phil: I should say this game is available on Windows, Android, iOS and Switch.

Phil: Yeah, so I'm not sure if these guys have done anything since because I had trouble finding much about them on the web.

Phil: But yeah, I mean, you're into this genre, aren't you?

Tom: Yep, very much so.

Phil: The team operates remotely, spread across France.

Phil: They're working on a new unannounced project.

Phil: The only last game was, they were created in

Tom: So if it's from France and it ends with a twist joke ending from the sounds of it, that you're not sure is deliberate, you can probably presume it is deliberate.

Phil: Yeah, you're right.

Phil: You're probably right.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So unless you've got anything else you want to ask me about that game, would I recommend it?

Phil: If you like Point and Click, I'd say it is a must play.

Phil: If you don't like Point and Click, you've got to have an appreciation for different types of games to really be able to play it.

Phil: Because if you don't like Point and Click games, it's really probably not a game for you sort of thing.

Tom: What score would you give it?

Phil: I would give it, because of its breakthroughs in storytelling at the end of the game, I'd give it a

Tom: So you hated it?

Phil: No, no, 's a decent score.

Tom: It's as good as Indiana Jones.

Phil: Yes, indeed.

Phil: The game that you've been playing, you've told me about is a game called the Case of the Golden Idol.

Tom: Another Indiana Jones game, I believe.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, Indiana Jones and the Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: I had not heard of this game, it was released in

Phil: I thought this was a new game also, but it's on everything.

Tom: It's so old I think there's been a sequel for it.

Phil: Is that right?

Phil: So how did this come up on your radar?

Tom: A friend was playing it and I discovered it was on Game Pass.

Phil: Oh, really?

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So even though it came out in it was imported to consoles and mobile until

Phil: It's a Latvian game.

Phil: Did you know that?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, Latvian.

Phil: So you don't know.

Phil: I don't see a lot of Latvian product.

Phil: But tell me, I know nothing about this game.

Tom: The sequel, I believe, came out last year.

Tom: So it's set in, I believe, the late s in what is, as far as one can tell, a fictionalized version of some part of Britain, most likely England.

Tom: And it is sort of a point-and-click adventure detective game that I would say is also influenced by Papers, Please and very much The Obra Dinn.

Phil: Oh, the Lucas Papers other game, Return of the Obra Dinn.

Phil: Did you finish that game?

Tom: No, I didn't.

Phil: I've started it a couple...

Phil: Why do you think you didn't finish it?

Tom: I think there was more emphasis in some ways on narrative than in Papers, Please.

Tom: And I didn't find the narrative at the beginning anyway at all interesting.

Tom: And the puzzles were also more drawn out than in Papers, Please.

Tom: I think if I went back to it with more time apart from Papers, Please, I would be more likely to stick to it because I wouldn't be expecting such an immediate experience.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I got to say, you know, Papers, Please for me is one of my favorite games of all time.

Phil: So it was a bit of a letdown for me when I went into it.

Phil: And I think the graphics kind of threw me a little bit too, honestly.

Phil: I've started it like twice.

Phil: But again, you know, perhaps after having played Spiritfarer recently, perhaps my tolerance for a notebook game, like, you know, having to have a notebook beside you to take notes and all the rest of it.

Phil: But I think my tolerance for that has been greatly increased.

Phil: Yeah, so I was probably a bit more of a Twitch gamer when I went, when I was playing Obra Dinn, but yeah, I'll definitely have to go back to it.

Phil: By the way, just taking a break from your coverage of The Case of the Golden Idol, which you said the sequel came out last year, The Rise of the Golden Idol.

Phil: We've got to, when we played Roblox, we both decided we're going to play a game and go play Roblox, for example, and see what it was all about.

Phil: I think that was a pretty good experience.

Phil: Yes, we're talking production notes on a show that I know that, but I was thinking, do you want to go and play, do we want to give Fortnite a proper go, or another game in classic like World of Warcraft?

Phil: I thought if we could attack a game that neither of us were really into, but that is big and notable.

Phil: I think that'd be good homework for us.

Tom: Well, it couldn't be World of Warcraft because I got a character to level I think, in World of Warcraft.

Phil: I think now if you start World of Warcraft, they start you at level after about minutes.

Phil: I remember in level your bust was a thing.

Tom: At the time, I think it was not the max level, because I think that was just when a new expansion came out, that raised it to the one after Burning Crusade, if I'm remembering the names correctly.

Tom: But I only had the original and Burning Crusade.

Tom: It sounds impressive, but it only took, I think, maybe hours, because I was playing with a friend who I played RuneScape with, and he had multiple max level characters in World of Warcraft and knew how to do it incredibly quickly.

Phil: I didn't know you played RuneScape.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: I played a lot of RuneScape, from the original version of RuneScape at that.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, well, okay.

Phil: Well, damn, man.

Phil: I have seen magazine photos of WoW, but I have had zero exposure to it.

Tom: It's all right.

Phil: I'm thinking I've got a...

Phil: I mean, it might be interesting for you to dip back in, but I don't know.

Phil: What do you think about Fortnite?

Tom: I think it's a good idea.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, add Fortnite to the list.

Phil: Maybe that can be our homework and we can get online, even try to play it together and see what is going on with that, because apparently that's been roadbloxified too.

Phil: Like, it's not just a straight vanilla game anymore.

Tom: Is Fortnite the epic one, right?

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: And what about Minecraft?

Phil: Oh, Minecraft.

Phil: Have you played it at all?

Tom: No.

Tom: I've got the classic anecdote of being sure I pre-ordered it.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: Yeah, you got screwed, man.

Phil: You paid like $for it and never got the actual game.

Phil: And then meanwhile, dude's over there of his candy room living in Los Angeles.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: $of that candy room is for me, you fucking bastard.

Phil: There is at least one jar of Jolly Ranchers in that man's house that is ill-gotten gain.

Phil: I have Minecraft on Xbox, on Switch.

Phil: I can probably, I'll probably go and pick it up on Steam.

Phil: Can you even get Minecraft on Steam?

Tom: I tried to play the VR version of Minecraft, which was free with the Quest but on the Oculus platform, but could never get it to work.

Tom: Well, but I believe it is on Game Pass.

Tom: So in theory, I should be able to play it there.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, I will see if it's on Steam deck.

Phil: This is the insidious thing that Valve has done.

Phil: If I can't get Minecraft on Steam, then that sort of turns me off of playing a game.

Tom: You can get Minecraft Dungeons and Legends.

Phil: I sure as hell can't get Fortnite on Steam.

Phil: That's for sure.

Phil: I know I can play Fortnite on...

Phil: Yeah, Minecraft is on Steam.

Phil: Alright, fine.

Phil: Alright, let's do Minecraft, okay?

Tom: Alright.

Phil: That will be on our list of things to do before next week's recording, which will come fast and furious, as our listeners have come to expect.

Phil: Yes, indeed.

Phil: video game.

Phil: I think it's time...

Phil: Yeah, I think it's time that...

Phil: You know, with gameunder.net, we don't just jump on the hottest thing, you know.

Phil: We wait for a game to prove itself before we tip out.

Tom: We wait for it to prove it's deserving of us.

Phil: Yes, that's right.

Phil: And I think it's time...

Phil: I think Minecraft has proven itself to be a game that's stood the test of time and we can jump into it.

Phil: So, alright, Minecraft, that's our homework.

Phil: Now, back to the Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: It's available for everything.

Phil: It's developed by a developer called Color Gray Games and published by an independent, independent publisher called PlayStack.

Phil: It's not on...

Phil: Yeah, it's on Switch, it's on Android, it's on iOS, it's on everything.

Phil: It's on Game Pass.

Phil: And so, is it the same sort of puzzle-solving type thing as Obra Dinn?

Tom: It's similar and also similar to Papers, Please.

Tom: So, depending on the level, you have different notebook challenges you're meant to solve and put together, but the main structure is the same for every level.

Tom: So, essentially, a scene is occurring, either, I think the first one is just one screen, but other ones, you'll have to sort of navigate around looking at different events occurring within this setting.

Tom: As you're going through that, you'll be collecting words that appear in the text on screen, which could be from characters talking, it could be from a note you find or anything.

Tom: As you collect these words, these words can be used to fill in the blanks in your notebook, which is a statement of what has occurred in the scene.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: How do you know, how do you have those words highlighted?

Phil: How do you pick those words?

Phil: Yeah, the words are highlighted.

Phil: Then you touch them or you click on them or something?

Tom: Yeah, you click on them and they'll be added to your notebook.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: For solving the level, it'll be like John Smith met blank and blank, blank, blank, which resulted in blank, blank, for example.

Phil: So it's like Graham Candy's Blankety Blanks.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Classic Australian television show.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So are you playing like as a detective and you're trying to solve a mystery, or like are you just...

Phil: What's the setup?

Phil: Who are you?

Tom: You're playing as a detective working for possibly the king, attempting to work out what's happened.

Tom: You're not a normal detective, I presume, because if I remember correctly, at some point you're speaking to a detective, which makes sense because the narrative is essentially that one of the characters in the game inherits a Golden Idol after the death of one of the characters in the game.

Tom: And this spirals into a revolutionary conspiracy as the Golden Idol has mystical powers.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So is this a case where the ruler is afraid that this idol has been found and is rising to prominence because it's going to threaten his power?

Tom: Well, all the events in the game have already occurred and you're piecing them together level by level as they transpire, but they've already transpired, if that makes sense.

Tom: So you're piecing together events that have already happened from the beginning to the end.

Phil: They're very much like Obra Dinn.

Tom: Yes, exactly.

Phil: It doesn't sound very innovative.

Phil: I mean, it sounds like they're copying it directly.

Tom: There's a lot of copying going on, I would say, definitely.

Phil: And, like, what's the time pressure?

Phil: Like, is it like, I've got to solve this before this so I can change the course of history, or you've got to...

Tom: No, there's no time pressure.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: And what's this...

Phil: The setting of this is in London?

Tom: It is in...

Tom: not in London, but I would say a fictionalized version of England.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And what time period?

Tom: The late s.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So a lot of mercantilism and wigs and things like that.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: I think it makes very good use of the setting, one both politically and in terms of the characters involved.

Tom: It has the feeling of that era, the greed and expansion, and some of the other political things going on at the time as well.

Tom: There is a Irish slash Scottish, probably more Scottish analog character that you encounter that is politically relevant as well.

Phil: Now, I don't know, we said these people are Latvian, so like the writing, like this sounds like good writing.

Phil: I mean, the way that you're talking about these characters.

Tom: It's a very good writing and the focus is on presenting you with something to solve, so they manage to suggest a lot through very little.

Phil: Okay, that sounds delightful.

Phil: I don't know how Latvians pulled that off.

Phil: I'm not saying anything about Latvians, but you're reading in English, I'm presuming.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: So it's either very good localization or just very good understanding of English writing.

Phil: So besides the word-based deduction system, is there any other different gameplay elements?

Tom: Yes, so the other one that is present in, I think, all but one, maybe two levels, is also identifying the characters you're encountering.

Tom: So you'll have a notebook page that has the faces of all the characters, and you've got to put the names to the faces, which for most of the levels will also help you put together what happened within the scene when you're trying to fill in the notebook page that describes what happened.

Tom: This works very well for the most part.

Tom: With some of the later levels, it's a little bit annoying having to fill in the names of characters you've already encountered.

Tom: But other than that, it works well.

Tom: Then for each individual level, there'll be a third or fourth or even fifth thing you have to fill in.

Tom: An example of this, and hence why it changes per level, is one of the scenes takes place in the initiation at another ceremony of a cult.

Tom: And you can technically fill in what happened without solving the optional objectives, which is what's happening in the initiation and what's happening in the ritual.

Tom: But both are useful for solving what's happening in the scene.

Tom: But as you can see from that, the context of what is happening usually affects the other things you're solving.

Tom: Another example is a character has been poisoned.

Tom: And one of the things you can solve is where each character was sitting at the table that the poisoning took place.

Phil: The graphics are pretty cool too.

Tom: Yep, it's got a great style, which again makes good use of the setting and the time period, I think.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Again, manages to convey a lot with just a pixelated, pixel art sort of art style.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, that looks good.

Phil: It harkens back to the era.

Phil: Yeah, definitely.

Phil: Of video game graphics.

Phil: Okay, well, it sounds like a definite game I'd be interested in.

Phil: I probably would go back and play Obra Dinn first, but the fact that it's got a sequel is also a positive thing.

Tom: I think if you didn't get hooked by Obra Dinn, you might actually be more likely to enjoy this as notwithstanding there being no time limit, like papers, please, there's a lot more immediate positive reinforcement as you're playing on a moment to moment basis.

Phil: Okay, of note, do you know much about the sequel, Rise of the Golden Idol?

Tom: I think the sequel is set in the s.

Phil: Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to bring up.

Tom: Which is, I think, another potentially very interesting setting.

Phil: Yeah, sounds good to me.

Phil: It's actually got very good scores across the board.

Phil: So thanks for bringing this game to us, man.

Phil: I had not heard of it, either one of these games.

Tom: And the DLC for the original also, at least one of them has a very interesting setting, which as far as I can tell, is a fictionalized version of Sri Lanka.

Phil: Oh, really?

Phil: I'm just writing this down here.

Phil: I'm putting it on my Amazon Wishlist.

Phil: Not really, just putting it in my notebook.

Tom: So if any listener, any subscribers of Phil Fogg's OnlyFans, wants to gift him it, they can just check his Amazon Wishlist on his profile.

Phil: Yeah, that would be great.

Phil: Thank you.

Phil: That would be fantastic.

Phil: Okay, well thanks for that.

Phil: I think we'll close out this episode with...

Phil: We'll go back to how it all started segment.

Tom: I think we've got to give it a score.

Phil: Oh, we don't have to.

Tom: Putting the horse ahead of the cart.

Phil: I don't think so.

Phil: Hey, I've almost finished a game called X by High Bit Studios.

Tom: No, I'm going to cut you off there.

Phil: We've also been playing Slay the Spire.

Tom: We're not going to use the rotating wheel this time.

Phil: Oh no, f*** that thing.

Tom: In the theme of The Golden Idol, we're going to ask an online magic -ball what score I should give it.

Phil: Ooh, magic -ball.

Phil: Well, a digital magical -ball.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Okay, well, that's...

Tom: So I asked what score should I give the case of the Golden Idol.

Tom: The magic -ball's answer is As I See It.

Tom: So I'm going to have to do a little bit of interpreting here.

Phil: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: Which is, yeah, okay.

Tom: It's a magical -ball.

Tom: And I asked what score should I give it, and it responded As I See It.

Tom: I'm going to assume the only thing it can be seeing is the number

Tom: So I'm going to give it an out of

Phil: How?

Phil: Oh, here's an -ball.

Phil: Oh, that's very clever.

Tom: And that's as the magic -ball sees it.

Tom: That's the only way I can interpret the statement as making sense in terms of numbers.

Phil: I asked Chat GPT what score you should give The Case of the Golden Idol.

Phil: And it came back and said, That depends on what aspects of the game most matter to you.

Phil: The Case of the Golden Idol has received widespread praise for its innovative, deductive mechanics, compelling narrative and satisfying mysteries.

Phil: If you enjoy detective games that challenge your reasoning skills, you may write it quite highly.

Phil: Critics and players generally scored it between and out of

Phil: But if you value unique puzzle design and deep storytelling, it might be even higher in your book.

Phil: Higher than out of ?

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: Conversely...

Tom: Higher than to out of so out of

Phil: Conversely, if you prefer more traditional adventure gameplay or find its art style less appealing, your score might lean lower.

Tom: Can you ask ChatGPT what score would ChatGPT give it?

Phil: Uh, what score would ChatGPT give the Case of the Golden Idol?

Phil: Yes, I type like a boomer.

Phil: I can't speak for ChatGPT, but I can tell you that the Case of Golden Idol has received glowing reviews from players and critics alike.

Tom: So ChatGPT can't speak for ChatGPT?

Phil: No, no.

Phil: Which is why we still have chance.

Tom: Ask ChatGPT who is it speaking for then?

Phil: Yeah, who are you speaking for?

Phil: Who are you speaking for?

Phil: This is a compelling content, I don't care what people say.

Phil: I speak for myself.

Phil: My purpose is to assist, inform and engage in conversations with you.

Phil: I don't represent any external companies or individuals, and I don't have any personal opinions.

Phil: Instead, I analyze information, synthesize insights, and provide responses tailored to your interests.

Tom: How can you speak for yourself if you don't have a personal opinion?

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

Phil: All right, we're going to go back to a segment before we forget it exists, called How It All Started.

Phil: Now, there is some merit-

Tom: Ask ChatGPT how it all started.

Phil: Yes, there is some merit that game series garner more cultural relevance and improve as games as the longer they run.

Phil: And some games don't really start at their first release.

Phil: So, for example, you know, Halo comes out, but Halo may have been the breakout, or Halo Reach, or Halo for example.

Phil: So, we've got some franchises left in this barrel.

Phil: We may as well empty this barrel today, so we don't have to go back to this segment.

Phil: And then we can do a How It All Ended segment.

Phil: So, for you personally, what is the first relevant entry in the series?

Phil: And then also from the greater gaming community's perspective, what do you think is the first relevant entry in the series, or the pinnacle of the series, right?

Phil: So, here we go.

Phil: Call of Duty.

Tom: Can I suggest?

Tom: No.

Tom: I'm going to suggest a different series based on the recent Bafta Award.

Tom: What about Shenmue?

Phil: Well, I've never played Shenmue or Shenmue

Phil: So, yeah, I can't have a take on that.

Tom: I think it's got to be Shenmue for both.

Phil: It did introduce-

Tom: Someone who has watched the intro for Shenmue.

Phil: You haven't played it?

Tom: No.

Tom: I watched the intro on the Xbox version of Shenmue

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, I played it.

Phil: I did the forklift stuff.

Phil: I did the looking-for-sailors.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That may have colored my criticism of it.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So starting with Call of Duty for you, which is the first entry-

Phil: It wasn't necessarily the first game, but to you, what was the first time you looked at Call of Duty and went, yeah, this is it?

Tom: I think the original, unless it was a demo of Call of Duty

Phil: I can distinctly say it was Call of Duty because it was an Xbox launch title, and it really looked good.

Phil: It looked amazing.

Phil: Now, I went back and played it not too long ago, and it still is a very good game.

Tom: But for everyone else, everyone else-

Tom: I would go with Call of Duty

Phil: Is that Modern Warfare?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, definitely.

Phil: Modern Warfare is the culturally is the peak there.

Phil: For me, Call of Duty really was where it took off.

Phil: I'm not going to say that's where it peaked because I love Call of Duty.

Phil: I absolutely loved it until it started to be gig downloads, unfortunately.

Tom: Before we move on from Call of Duty, can I just add, if you remember, there was Call of Duty and then there was Call of Duty and everyone was sick of World War games.

Tom: Oh, and Call of Duty sorry.

Tom: Then there was Call of Duty World at War, Modern Warfare Black Ops, Modern Warfare Black Ops Ghosts, Advanced Warfare, Black Ops Infinite Warfare, World War finally.

Tom: It took three years for people to get sick of World War and I think years for people to get sick of Call of Duty

Phil: I agree.

Phil: I actually, I really enjoyed most Call of Duties, including Ghosts and Advanced Warfare.

Phil: I have no problem with Call of Duty whatsoever, I've got to say.

Phil: The only problem I have with it is, I have two problems with it.

Phil: One of which is that it's one of the top ways people find gameunder.net, the website for this podcast, because you did an article that was called Call of Duty Porn.

Phil: And so that's like our fifth most trafficked site on our page, on our website, because people feeling horny and they're like, hey, what do I like?

Phil: I don't like porn.

Phil: What else do I like?

Phil: Call of Duty.

Phil: Hey, I wonder if there's any Call of Duty porn.

Phil: And guess which is the only website in the world that has combined those two concepts, which is not what you were talking about.

Phil: You were talking about a glorification of war or something.

Tom: So what you're saying is, it's time for a follow-up.

Tom: What other game should we do porn for?

Tom: You're the OnlyFans model, you tell me, you're the expert.

Phil: Well, I would say Fortnite, but that's got to exist already, you know, you've got to go.

Tom: I think there's a lot of that.

Phil: You know what?

Tom: I'm reliably informed.

Phil: Obra Dinn porn.

Phil: Oh, it would be the only website in the world, you know, because people are like, oh god, I'm feeling horny.

Phil: What's the name of that game?

Phil: Oh, Obra Dinn, yeah.

Phil: I love that game.

Tom: Like the Call of Duty game that inspired that article, I think Obra Dinn is aesthetically interesting enough that that would work.

Phil: There's going to be the show title, by the way.

Phil: So, I think, you know, people, you know, you know what would make, I always used to say, what I used to say, how would you make this game better?

Phil: I always used to say at a ATV, you know, a quad bike and a sniper rifle and a shotgun, you can improve every game percent.

Phil: Yeah, adding porn, you know, maybe that's what Obra Dinn missed, you know?

Tom: Maybe.

Tom: That's why we didn't stick with it.

Phil: Well, we didn't finish it, if you see what I'm saying.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: That's very true.

Phil: Yes, Doom.

Tom: We have to finish with another game.

Phil: Doom, Doom, Doom.

Phil: Let's go back to my room.

Phil: So, first relevant entry in the series.

Tom: Haven't we done Doom before?

Phil: No, we haven't.

Phil: I crossed them off the list as we go.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Well, the answer for me is combined this time.

Tom: Doom, the original.

Tom: I think both came to prominence with that.

Tom: And also, that was my entry point to it.

Tom: And I think I can say I've probably played a lot more Doom than I have Doom

Phil: Yeah, Doom is good, but it's really just more of the same.

Phil: And Doom was not good.

Phil: It wasn't really until like Doom or whatever it was.

Phil: You know, the Doom got good again and then Doom Eternal sucked.

Phil: And now that we've got Doom Dark Ages, do you have any interest in that?

Phil: It's probably going to come to Game Pass.

Tom: That's the third one in the modern version, right?

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: This is a snap back from the dumb platforming combos thing.

Tom: I think I need to return to the second one to prove you wrong.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: I bought Doom Eternal recently by accident because it was on sale.

Phil: I thought it was the real Doom and it's the second dumb one.

Phil: I call it, it's like Doom ODST.

Phil: It's horrible.

Phil: Go with an easy one, Super Mario Brothers.

Phil: You got one, two, three and World.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: Which is the first non-jump man Super Mario?

Phil: Well, Super Mario Brothers, the first one.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Well, then I think the answer is Super Mario Brothers for the World in general.

Tom: This is a hard one for me to answer because I did enjoy the SNES Super Mario, but not as much as I enjoyed Busby.

Phil: Bubsy, you mean?

Tom: Bubsy, yes.

Tom: So I'll probably have to go with, for me, Super Mario Galaxy.

Tom: I don't think any previous Mario Brother games really stuck with me until I got to Super Mario Galaxy.

Tom: And I don't think any since then have really stuck to me, with me, to the same degree either.

Tom: I've been playing Super Mario New York City, but I only ever play it if I'm on a plane and I don't feel any desire to play it in any other time.

Phil: Yeah, New Donk City.

Phil: Yeah, I wasn't going to expand it out to the whole Mario platforming world.

Phil: I was just thinking between and in world.

Phil: For me, world is where it stuck for me.

Phil: And I suck at it.

Phil: And I've probably played that game more than I've played any other game in my life.

Phil: On the original Super Nintendo.

Phil: And I absolutely suck at it.

Tom: I'm terrible.

Phil: I'm absolutely terrible at it.

Phil: But I love it so much.

Tom: I'm also bad at D platforming solely in Super Mario Bros.

Tom: And I don't know why.

Tom: Because I'm good.

Tom: I'm reasonably good at D platformers everywhere else.

Tom: And I can get very good at them if I can be bothered to.

Tom: Yet there is something about Super Mario Bros.

Tom: That does not make sense to me.

Tom: And I don't know what it is.

Phil: I think for the globe, it's Super Mario Bros.

Phil: For me personally, Super Mario Galaxy is the absolute pinnacle.

Phil: I thought Galaxy was fantastic, absolutely sublime.

Phil: And then somehow they managed to top it with the second game.

Phil: Odyssey was very, very, very, very good.

Phil: I mean, I don't particularly enjoy D platformers.

Phil: So for it to even be something I'd consider talking about or enjoying, let alone beating, was pretty phenomenal.

Phil: But of the original four Super Mario World, to me is the breakout.

Phil: Zelda?

Tom: Zelda, I think for the world, it's got to be Ocarina of Time.

Tom: I think the D ones were certainly important, but I don't think they reached the just total acclaim and supposed influence as Ocarina of Time did.

Tom: And for me personally, I would say The Wind Waker.

Phil: Oh yeah, that was a good one.

Phil: Look, for me personally, Zelda hasn't resonated ever.

Phil: You possibly make the argument these days that for the world, it's Breath of the Wild, because no one has played more Zelda than Breath of the Wild, like in terms of selling.

Tom: That's true.

Phil: Yeah, and I think...

Tom: And in terms of hours.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: I think that's the one.

Phil: But it's so hard because Links of the Past on the Super Nintendo is so beloved, so highly rated and appreciated and loved.

Phil: And Ocarina of Time, similarly on the Nwas a transformational game.

Phil: You know, for myself even.

Tom: I would still go with Ocarina of Time over Breath of the Wild though, because it has been...

Tom: How long is it since Breath of the Wild released?

Phil: Oh, like seven years or something?

Tom: Seven years.

Tom: That's long enough.

Tom: I think at the time, Breath of the Wild, there were a lot of calls by fans for greatest game of all time.

Tom: But I don't see people making that statement with the same sort of regularity that people have with Ocarina of Time ever since it was released.

Tom: No, Ocarina of Time was a masterpiece.

Tom: I think Ocarina of Time has outlasted it.

Tom: I've got to give it to Ocarina of Time.

Phil: I don't use this word very often.

Phil: Ocarina of Time was a masterpiece.

Phil: It really was.

Phil: It was a masterpiece.

Phil: It was like leaps and bounds over other games.

Phil: I don't even like, necessarily like Nintendo, or Zelda, or any of it.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Wow.

Phil: You look at something like Zelda to Ocarina of Time, it's like, what are we talking about?

Phil: I think for the world, yeah, Ocarina stands.

Phil: Then for me personally, I didn't like the first Zelda at all.

Phil: I didn't like the second Zelda at all.

Phil: The Link to the Past is considered to be a breakthrough game as well.

Phil: So it's very tough for me to come down on any of that.

Phil: But yeah, you can't go past Ocarina.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: We've got last two and they're both Bethesda games.

Phil: We'll go with the boring one first, which is Fallout.

Tom: Fallout for me, the original, no question.

Tom: I think this is probably one of the more challenging ones because if you look back at PC gaming, I think Fallout was absolutely massive.

Tom: I think people underestimate how huge that was at the time.

Tom: And a lot of people probably inclined to give it to Fallout or

Tom: But I think Fallout at the time was just as massive, if not even bigger.

Tom: So I think I'll go ultimately with Fallout

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: Well, me personally is Fallout

Phil: And then I think, well, the best Fallout game is Fallout New Vegas.

Phil: So I'm going to say for me, Fallout New Vegas, I think for the world, it was Fallout

Phil: And I think, I think they have never touched, Fallout has never touched the heights of where they were since

Tom: I'm still going to go with

Tom: Because one thing you have to consider is the greater market share, market potential, sorry.

Tom: That exists when Fallout is released compared to Fallout

Phil: Yeah, it was a blockbuster and Fallout is probably the better game.

Phil: But did you play the Brothers of Steel spinoff?

Tom: Don't think I did.

Phil: I think I have a sealed copy of that for the Xbox.

Phil: Anyway, finally, this one, I think maybe we might have the same answer for both Elder Scrolls.

Tom: Elder Scrolls, I think the answer is...

Tom: No, actually, I was going to say both the Me and the World, Morrowind, but that's, I don't think, correct.

Tom: I think the correct answer for The World is Skyrim.

Tom: And for me, without any question, Morrowind, Morrowind and Oblivion are the only two that I have played to completion, and I don't know how, but I spent probably almost as much time in Oblivion, hours or something, as I spent in Morrowind, yet I enjoyed not even close to hours in Oblivion, but Morrowind I thought was just an amazingly crafted world, an engrossing setting and one of the most interesting and enjoyable narratives of any other game, of any game, sorry.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, for the world of Skyrim, and it's going to be difficult for them to, like how do you replace Skyrim at this point?

Phil: You know, people have been playing it for ever.

Phil: And there's people that don't, it's funny because like for me, Morrowind is obviously the answer.

Phil: And it was funny because like when Oblivion came out, you know, I was thinking of it as Morrowind

Phil: And you know, there are going to be people thinking that the, you know, the next game is going to be Skyrim sort of thing.

Phil: It's like, no, it's not going to be Skyrim

Phil: I honestly wish they'd flush Fallout just so they could focus on nothing but the Elder Scrolls.

Phil: Morrowind was a life changer for me.

Phil: Oblivion was also very impressive as an Xbox launch game.

Phil: They're great games.

Phil: Skyrim, I've somehow managed to finish it as well, a couple of different times.

Phil: So, you know, I love everything about it.

Phil: All the jank, it's fine.

Phil: Morrowind, though, man, like I can hear that music in my head.

Phil: You know, it's there.

Phil: It's there.

Phil: It's a real place for me.

Phil: Like you've just gone to Hong Kong or China or whatever, and you can think back and go, yeah, I was there and I remember it.

Phil: And that was a real place.

Phil: There's four or five places in Morrowind where I can remember being.

Phil: And I was there, you know.

Phil: It is a weird trick that they managed to pull it off.

Phil: So, yeah, for the world, Skyrim, and as I predicted, we'd have the same answer on this one, Morrowind.

Phil: And I was playing the janky Xbox version.

Phil: It was just fantastic.

Phil: And the expansions were all great.

Phil: Yeah, so where it all started.

Tom: Before we move on from Oblivion, I've just got to recount my experience of getting and playing Oblivion.

Tom: I pre-ordered the special edition.

Tom: And when the shop got it, I think the came with...

Tom: I think they might have been die, special die, but they'd apparently been damaged in shipping.

Tom: How do you damage a die?

Tom: I don't know.

Phil: So your six-sided die is now a seven-sided die?

Tom: Potentially.

Tom: It might not have been die though.

Tom: I can't remember what it was.

Phil: It might have been a wizard's hat or something.

Tom: Maybe.

Tom: But so all it was, was just the metal container with the game in it and nothing else.

Tom: And the computer I had at the time, I wasn't sure would run it.

Tom: So I got the game, I installed the game, I figured out a DirectX workaround because it wasn't meant to work with the DirectX that my video card was capable of outputting.

Tom: But I didn't want it because it didn't have the special edition stuff and it was more expensive than the normal version of it.

Tom: So I copied the game and returned the special edition that was not a special edition and started playing Morrowind without any colour in the game.

Tom: Because to have colour in the game, you required the later version of DirectX.

Tom: So I was playing it with various shades of white.

Phil: So it looked like Skyrim.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Completely washed out without colour.

Tom: Yet the game was running at way more than FPS.

Tom: So the video card was powerful enough to play it, it just couldn't for bureaucratic reasons.

Tom: Essentially.

Tom: So my first experience with Oblivion was in a colourless version of the game.

Tom: Eventually I get a faster PC that can play it in colour and I'm disappointed to discover that the game, I actually prefer this weird white aesthetic of my original experience with the game.

Tom: The world without that was a much less magical and more disappointing place.

Phil: When you started this story, I wrote down emergent gameplay because everyone has these emergent gameplay moments.

Phil: I thought you were going to tell me about something that actually happened inside of Morrowind, but you have this amazing story about something that happened outside of the gameplay.

Tom: Well, the emergent gameplay moments were much more interesting in Morrowind than in Oblivion.

Phil: Oh, for sure, yeah.

Phil: And I found my play.

Phil: That's the best part of the Elder Scrolls.

Phil: I found myself in Skyrim and I'm playing as a goody two shoes.

Phil: I'm in these people's house and then you pick something up and you're just looking at it.

Phil: And they're like, oh, the girl says, oh, you stole it.

Phil: Like, why are you stealing from it?

Phil: So I was like, in my head, I'm like, oh, I wasn't stealing.

Phil: I was just looking at it.

Phil: And then eventually, she calls her father in and oh, you're going to have to tell all the people in the village you are the thief in the house.

Phil: I was like, I'm going to have to kill this entire family.

Phil: So I had to kill them all, which is completely out of character, hide their bodies, you know, under the furniture and everything else, and just get the hell out of Dodge.

Phil: And other things that have happened in various games is like, how am I going to beat this boss?

Phil: And you just find that you can cheese him into a corner and get him stuck behind a pillar and then just keep stabbing him with your rat knife or whatever.

Phil: Those are the things that make the Elder Scrolls game so amazing.

Phil: But in Morrowind, it was always just that, and I talked about this in Half-Life just the exploring, just going out and walking, you know, and getting into a yurt and going, okay, I found this yurt, am I going to be able to sleep in this yurt?

Phil: Is someone, is the guy who owns the yurt going to come along at some point and kick me out of the yurt?

Phil: What is a yurt?

Phil: You know, yeah, fantastic, fantastic series.

Phil: Well, that's how it all-

Tom: Can I just say?

Phil: Yes.

Tom: As someone who stated that they can't differentiate their memories of Morrowind with reality, I'm very glad you said that murdering a whole family in Oblivion was out of character.

Phil: Skyrim, yes, yes.

Tom: Skyrim, so yes.

Phil: Yeah, absolutely.

Phil: That did not happen in real life.

Phil: But it was, you know, it's just like stupid how the snowball was rolling down the hill.

Phil: It's like, oh god, I'm gonna have to kill all these people.

Phil: And I think that's what Bafta's most influential game of whatever it was, the third one on the list has been out for three months.

Phil: I think that is the hook on that game as well, whatever that game is called.

Tom: And it was a massive influence on Skyrim, I believe.

Phil: Yeah, that's how it all started, but this is how it's all going to end.

Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: Amazingly, we've been doing this since

Phil: Enjoy this.

Phil: This is our last free show.

Phil: Next show will cost you money.

Phil: We'll secretly figure out a way of getting money out of you.

Phil: Because it does take a lot of resources covering games from that time to now.

Phil: You can go to our website, gameunder.net and check it out.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, just use a comment section from our homepage.

Phil: Thanks for listening to episode

Phil: We got through the whole episode without making any jokes.

Tom: Now I understand the porn theme.

Phil: Of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: He was Tom Towers and that's the end of the show.

Tom: I'm always Tom Towers.

Game Under Podcast 168

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0:00:23 Hardware Sales Down

0:07:45 PC Handheld Sales Pathetic

0:19:08 WB Closes Studios

0:24:21 Late Shift Impressions

0:30:12 Nice Boss Story

0:31:28 Gex Trilogy News

0:32:20 Spiritfarer Impressions

0:45:33 E-mails

Transcript:
Phil: Hello, and welcome to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I am your host, Phil Fogg.

Phil: Our co-host, Tom Towers, is on assignment, our foreign correspondent, so he won't be joining us this week.

Phil: He'll be back next time, and letting us know everything that he's been up to.

Phil: So for today, though, we're just gonna go straight into the news.

Phil: Video game news, that is.

Phil: The first story is video game hardware sales are way down, and credit for this one goes to Brett Bill, or Brett Bile.

Phil: Video game hardware sales have dropped by %, hitting the lowest January total since years.

Phil: Digital game sales, of course, continue to beat physical sales, and potential for sales turn around this year.

Phil: Everyone's got their hopes pinned on Nintendo Nintendo Switch and of course Grand Theft Auto

Phil: It's gonna be a big year for those two companies.

Phil: Of course, Grand Theft Auto will be a console exclusive, it won't be coming to PC, so there's only gonna be one way to get it, and that's gonna make Sony very happy, and of course Microsoft as well.

Phil: Matt Piscatella, the executive director of NPD, shared that video game hardware sales are slowing down by nearly half their usual rate.

Phil: These sales may reflect changing attitudes about gaming consoles overall, but NPD's numbers could also be indicative of the state of the games market, and a potential lack of interesting new software releases to drive hardware sales.

Phil: With the Nintendo Switch serving up beefier hardware than its predecessor, it will be interesting to see how Nintendo handles third-party games.

Phil: Matt Piscatella reports that video game hardware sales have been experiencing a staggering drop all around, with total sales of major console platforms falling by %.

Phil: He elaborated on the news, stating that the total hardware sales in January are $million, which compared to this same month last year was $million.

Phil: So this year, $million, last year $million.

Phil: The Xbox has dropped by %, PlayStation has dropped by %, and the Nintendo Switch has dropped by %.

Phil: So some have shared that the sentiment is that as long as the hobby remains too expensive for their comfort, sales will continue to fall.

Phil: So, yeah, so what's my take on that?

Phil: Well, you know, you look at the drops in sales there, % overall.

Phil: Sony did better with a drop of only %, but still, that's still % drop.

Phil: Microsoft dropped off by half, and Nintendo Switch went down by half as well.

Phil: So that may be less surprising since there's a new system coming on its way, but I'm pretty confident that most consumers don't know, most general consumers don't know that a Switch is on the way.

Phil: I recently sold a Switch game on an online marketplace, and the person was like, I'm really looking forward to getting this game because I've just got a Switch.

Phil: And to me, obviously, and to you, listener of a video game podcast, you're going, ah, you know, and I was just like, I'll just let that lie.

Phil: I'm not going to be like, hey, you know, a Switch is coming out in about six months, right?

Phil: So yeah, I don't think Switch's drop in sales is due necessarily to a new one coming out, though, of course, informed shoppers are going to be holding off.

Phil: I think there is a degree of market saturation there.

Phil: The Nintendo Switch has been extremely successful over multiple iterations over many years.

Phil: Xbox's sales dropping off by %.

Phil: Well, that's what their marketing is.

Phil: I mean, their marketing is saying, why buy an Xbox?

Phil: Phil Spencer, I don't have the story this week, but Phil Spencer was on a podcast about a week and a half ago and said, I'm not in the business of trying to drive gamers to Xbox console anymore.

Phil: And a couple of days prior to that, he said that there basically will be no more Xbox exclusives as they're continuing to promote Game Pass as the way to play.

Phil: So that's not really a surprise because they're actively telling people that they don't have to buy an Xbox console.

Phil: What does this mean overall for console sales?

Phil: You know, there's another story that I didn't carry this week that talked about how % of online play last month was in games.

Phil: And most of those games were more than six years old.

Phil: And the commentator on that basically said, it's hard to beat free if it's good.

Phil: And I think that's what's hitting these consoles is more than anything, people playing these forever games, Fortnite, Minecraft, you name it.

Phil: You all know the games I'm talking about.

Phil: So there's no real compelling reason to get a new console.

Phil: The reason to get a new console in the past was because there was a hot new game on it that you couldn't play anywhere else.

Phil: You bought a PlayStation so you could play Grand Theft Auto

Phil: You bought an Xbox because it had Halo.

Phil: You bought Nintendo for the same reason you buy Nintendo today.

Phil: They've got fantastic quality exclusives.

Phil: And with Microsoft and Sony not having significant exclusives to drive their console sales, you can see why the sales are off.

Phil: I think, yeah, the other thing I read was that basically Microsoft will have more first-party exclusives on PlayStation this year than Sony will, which is shocking.

Phil: I mean, when you look at Sony's studio situation, they went from having studios to essentially not having any output whatsoever.

Phil: And of course, it didn't help that they went around great closing, fantastic studios like Sony Tokyo, or Tokyo Studio, London Studio, shut down Psygnosis and I'm probably only remembering a few of them here.

Phil: So yeah, I think that the drop in hardware consoles, the drop is also attributable to people not particularly wanting to own stuff anymore.

Phil: And that's not a consumerist perspective, that's just a Spotify generation, that's a Netflix generation.

Phil: You know, why would I have a piece of consumer appliance that's limited to one physical space in my house that I have to be with to play a game, when many of these games that you can play online, you can play on your mobile.

Phil: So, and I know that's an anathema to some of us older gamers, but that's just the reality of it.

Phil: And you can whale about it all you want, but the fact that digital game sales have risen as physical sales decline, that's just indicative of the changing trends, not only in gaming, but in media ownership.

Phil: So, on to the next story.

Phil: Credit for this one goes to metro.co.uk, which I can't recall getting many stories from recently.

Phil: Don't have a strong vivid memory of metro.co.uk.

Phil: I do have a strong vivid memory that every time I've been on their website today for this story, a notification, a thing pops up every two seconds saying, we're about to turn notifications on for this website, okay?

Phil: And of course you go, no thanks.

Phil: And then you scroll down and it'll do it again.

Phil: It's like, what are they doing?

Phil: What do they, okay, I know what they're doing.

Phil: You don't have to tell me what they're doing.

Phil: Story number two, Steam Deck has barely outsold Engage as sales cast out on Xbox's handheld plans.

Phil: What?

Phil: So, for those of you that don't know what the Engage was, Nokia launched a piece of hardware, would have been in the early s.

Phil: It was basically a mobile phone, but it was shaped sort of like a Game Boy Advance, and it had a horrible button layout.

Phil: It had basically, you could use it as a phone and hold it up to your head.

Phil: And there's obviously, there was tons of memes at the time because it basically looks like you're holding a taco up to your head.

Phil: That's what it looks like.

Phil: So the whole thing was, you can have a phone, but it's a gaming device.

Phil: So anyway, all that to say this, the N-Gage was a huge flop.

Phil: So I was surprised to read that Valve Steam Deck has barely outsold the N-Gage.

Phil: Here's a story, new data has revealed sales figures from PC gaming handhelds across the board, which even collectively haven't surpassed Sony's failed PS Vita.

Phil: In the conversation around gaming handhelds, people usually highlight the Nintendo Switch and Valve Steam Deck as the big success stories in the market.

Phil: The success of the Switch is undisputed with the console having surpassed million units sold, trailing only the Nintendo DS and PlayStation as the best selling console ever.

Phil: Valve meanwhile has always been vague about sales for the Steam Deck, claiming it had sold many millions back in

Phil: But now a new report has shed light on exactly how much of the market the Steam Deck and other PC gaming handhelds occupy.

Phil: And it's a mere drop in the ocean by comparison.

Phil: According to data from market research firm IDC, which uses supply chains to estimate how many handheld gaming systems have shipped worldwide, PC gaming handhelds, namely the Steam Deck, the Asus Rogue Ally, Lenovo Legion Go, and the MSI Claw, have collectively shipped just under million units since

Phil: According to estimates from The Verge, the Steam Deck makes up the lion's share of this with about almost million units shipped in the three years since it launched in February

Phil: Although since these are only estimates, it may have crossed the million mark by this point.

Phil: Notably, the IDC doesn't expect the PC handheld market to grow in any significant way this year, with the research firm forecasting just under million shipments in which is an improvement over where only million sold.

Phil: So these numbers are amazing, because in one sense, they're good because years ago, this is a market sector that did not exist.

Phil: PC handhelds, that is.

Phil: Of course, the switch has been around a lot longer than years.

Phil: So for it to have that sort of growth, it's done well.

Phil: I'd be interested to see where this reflects against VR headsets, for example.

Phil: I would have believed that they would have sold many more than million units.

Phil: But if you ask me today, how many Steam decks had sold before this story, I would have probably guessed around to million, and have sold about

Phil: And get this, the Steam decks' numbers are comparable to the PlayStation Portal.

Phil: So now the Portal has sold about million units, and the N-Gage sold million units.

Phil: So when I say that it's comparable, I'm saying compared to, say, the Switch.

Phil: Now, Xbox boss again Phil Spencer was keen on the idea, and has hinted multiple times that Microsoft hopes to enter the handheld space.

Phil: And Sony's also been rumored with very little evidence to be considering a new handheld console in light of the Switch's success.

Phil: But both companies will need to do something beyond just technical power to rival Nintendo's grip over the handheld space.

Phil: And I'd say entry point, so what does Phil Fogg think?

Phil: Why are people reluctant to buy these things?

Phil: Like, look, the Switch was not the first handheld game.

Phil: I remember that the Nvidia Shield, which I think the Switch has an Nvidia chip in it, the Nvidia Shield was the progenitor of this, and it was particularly clumsy, as I recall, and not very compelling.

Phil: And the problem that a lot of these systems had was that they'd have a clunky, if not cheap, Chinese type, you know, a graphical user interface to them, and a cheap feel to them.

Phil: The other way they'd go is basically run Windows on a handheld, and Windows is not made for a handheld, and nor is Linux for that matter, because in Steam Deck, you can go into a desktop mode and basically use Linux as if you are, you know, sitting at a computer, except of course, you're not.

Phil: You're using controller sticks as a mouse and touch pads and all the rest of it, and it doesn't work.

Phil: It just doesn't work.

Phil: And look, adherence will say, of course it works, it's fantastic, but yeah, but it's not an ideal way to navigate.

Phil: What Nintendo brought to it was, one, a lower price point.

Phil: And I think price point is the number one barrier to entry for most people when it comes to handheld PC gaming.

Phil: Most people cannot justify paying the cost of a console or an entry level PC, not even a gaming PC, but just an entry level middle of the road PC, for something that they're going to carry around.

Phil: People see things, they perceive possibly that handhelds are small, that they're toy-like.

Phil: Why would I do that?

Phil: And so what Nintendo changed with that was a price point that was accessible.

Phil: Now, Nintendo's audience traditionally has been family-based, and I think that that's not a derogatory thing to say.

Phil: I don't think anyone would argue that Nintendo's basis is being a family-facing company.

Phil: So this had to be something that people were comfortable giving a child and a child having in their hands.

Phil: You give a kid a DS, they smash it, okay, you're out bucks.

Phil: You know, you give them a Steam Deck, they smash it, you're out a thousand bucks, you know, when you put all the bits and pieces together, right?

Phil: And with a Nintendo Switch, yeah, okay, you might be out three or four hundred bucks, but it's still not like the end of the world.

Phil: And you add a few compelling things, like the joy pads coming off and the dockable solution, so that, you know, everyone can play around it.

Phil: It's not perfect, of course, because for multi-children or multi-gamer homes, instead of just buying one console and then buying a controller for each player, you now obviously have to buy a Switch for everyone.

Phil: Yeah, and I know, yes, for multiplayer games, you can just buy other controllers and sync them up.

Phil: But for in a kid's mindset, someone's got the control of the Switch, right?

Phil: And if they're in the car, where you're not going to be using a dock, then you've got to buy a second Switch or a third Switch.

Phil: Okay, so it does start to add up, but that's how Nintendo gets you.

Phil: It's like the frog in the teapot.

Phil: They heat you up slowly over time so that you don't really mind.

Phil: And then before you know it, you've spent bucks on the Switch, and then you get the better screen one and all the rest of it.

Phil: So Entry Point was another one.

Phil: And with Nintendo, they added an especially good gimmick with the dock.

Phil: It's more than a gimmick, it's an innovation.

Phil: And they made the price point attractive enough that you weren't afraid to give it to a child.

Phil: The other thing that both Valve's Steam Deck and the Nintendo Switch did was provide a unified user interface that is intuitive and easy to understand and easy to use.

Phil: So you didn't have an operating system layer there getting in the way of you and you playing your game.

Phil: So Nintendo and Valve have both done those things to make their systems more approachable, but apparently on the PC side of things not enough.

Phil: And I think it really does come down to price point.

Phil: It would be helpful if the dock came with every Steam handheld.

Phil: I think people would understand that a bit better.

Phil: When I've talked to people about it and saying, oh, which dock should I get?

Phil: They're like, you can dock that thing?

Phil: So I think, but Valve's never been fantastic about marketing.

Phil: They've been very good at the things that they do, but if you look at the Steam machines, and that drive to have a Steam interface for PC, dedicated type PC, it never really worked.

Phil: And I think in the PC section, there's no one you look at.

Phil: There's no market leader where you go, yeah, look at them, they're leading the way.

Phil: And I'm talking about Yodel, Lenovo, et cetera, et cetera.

Phil: So there's not really a compelling consumer adherence to a particular PC hardware brand, because most, well, on the hardcore side of things, most gamers like myself like to build, or have built, bespoke PCs for gaming.

Phil: And in regular consumers, just like we finished talking about with consoles, they don't particularly want to own a PC.

Phil: They've got a phone, they've got a tablet, they don't want a third device.

Phil: That's going to significantly, unless there's a significant value to it.

Phil: And so, yeah, it's funny because you see Microsoft, I honestly thought that Microsoft's next console has to be a handheld.

Phil: I don't know why Microsoft's even making another console at this point.

Phil: And I don't take that in the wrong way, but they're basically saying, look, we want to want to sell game pass.

Phil: We don't want to sell consoles.

Phil: That's what they're saying.

Phil: That's not me interpreting it.

Phil: That's what they're saying.

Phil: So they say our next console will be the biggest technological leap ever seen for video game consoles.

Phil: And of course, we all thought that was going to be power, but it probably means it's going to be either an innovation in a different way.

Phil: I don't think that's going to be limited to handheld, but their innovation may be that you're going to be streaming all of your games and it's going to be dirt cheap, and therefore, you're going to have eight of these scattered around your house so the gaming is more accessible.

Phil: But yes, interesting times.

Phil: Story number three.

Phil: Another bummer story, and this one has been discussed several times by several people, so I won't belabor it.

Phil: But Warner Brothers, of course, this week canceled Wonder Woman, but more importantly, they closed down some studios, including one that I have a lot of appreciation for.

Phil: Credit to this one goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Warner Brothers has closed down three of its studios, Monolith Productions, Player First Games, and Warner Brothers Games San Diego.

Phil: So Player First Games, I think they acquired them last year, which is really a dud.

Phil: But it doesn't really matter the story.

Phil: There's no point in me reading this here, but I'll just say that the official press release basically said that they were closing these studios.

Phil: Warner Brothers, head of games and streaming, JB Parrott went into a more candid detail, however, about the closures and cancellations in a staff memo that's been seen by Bloomberg.

Phil: Quote, the quality of too many of our new releases has really missed the mark.

Phil: We need to make some substantial changes to our portfolio and team structure if we are to commit to the necessary resources to get back to a fewer but bigger franchises strategy.

Phil: Now, of the three studios that were closed down, Monolith Productions was the longest running of them.

Phil: And this was a studio founded in and it developed an impressive portfolio of acclaimed titles over the years, including No One Lives Forever, which was a James Bond type game with a female protagonist.

Phil: So it's been trapped on PC forever and hard to get a hold of because of licensing.

Phil: FEAR, capital F-E-A-R, the initialism, was a game that a lot of people loved.

Phil: I don't recall playing it, but then I played a lot of games.

Phil: A game that I particularly remember, however, was Condemned, which was a launch game or close to it for the Xbox and its sequel.

Phil: Now, for long time listeners, you know that we've been doing this for like years or something like that, you know that I don't like scary games.

Phil: I do, but they just freak me out too much.

Phil: I don't like gore, particularly.

Phil: And I, yeah, I just, something in my head snapped at some point where I just went from being able to enjoy it to just completely not.

Phil: And Contemned is a really gruesome, physically violent game.

Phil: I absolutely loved it.

Phil: And I loved the sequel, Condemned as well.

Phil: I think it was fantastic.

Phil: I don't know how they'd stand up today, but at the time, they were very impressive.

Phil: So what else did they do?

Phil: They did Shogo.

Phil: I don't really know much about that one.

Phil: That was in

Phil: Aliens vs.

Phil: Predator

Phil: Yeah, I can't say I remember that one.

Phil: They did No One Lives Forever Tron in

Phil: I don't remember that being particularly good.

Phil: Yeah, and here I go.

Phil: I'm saying how great these guys are, and I'm running down all their games.

Phil: They did a sequel to Fear.

Phil: They did Gotham City Impostors.

Phil: Yes, I know that now you're just, okay, I get it.

Phil: You're saying good riddance to these people, but no, they did great work.

Phil: Look, they did No One Lives Forever, Aliens vs.

Phil: Predator The Condemned Games, Fear Games, and they did Middle Earth, Shadow of Mordor.

Phil: They did Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War, which were fantastic experiences.

Phil: I completed Shadow of Mordor.

Phil: It was a really fun game.

Phil: It basically took the Batman type mechanics and applied it to Batman Arkham Asylum combat and applied it to an open world setting set in the Lord of the Rings story.

Phil: I'm not a fan, and I'm not a fan of Lord of the Rings.

Phil: I'm completely ignorant of Lord of the Rings, right?

Phil: So that's not by design.

Phil: There's a lot of things that I just haven't gotten to.

Phil: And that was one of them.

Phil: Maybe one day I'll get into it and I'll love it.

Phil: Anyway, Shadow of Mordor was, in my first introduction to the whole Lord of the Rings thing.

Phil: And the game was fantastic.

Phil: And of course it had the Nemesis system, which is basically where you, as you knocked out an enemy, another person would get promoted, and this other person would like you because you took them out, and the other person would not like you because they took them out.

Phil: Or maybe you hurt someone, but you didn't kill them, and they're now gunning for you to come and get you.

Phil: It was a really fun system.

Phil: So yeah, I'm sad to see Monolith go away.

Phil: Now since they started in that's a long time.

Phil: That's like years.

Phil: That's years, actually.

Phil: I'm sure a lot of the people who were responsible for a lot of these great things have come and gone and all the rest of it.

Phil: But it is terrible, terrible to see a workman-like studio like that or any type of studio.

Phil: Yeah, well, that pretty much covers the news for this week.

Phil: So now we'll get into we.

Phil: Now I will get into this while our foreign correspondent is probably poolside somewhere, I might suggest, probably somewhere poolside while I sit here, waiting for a cyclone to dissipate off the coast of my home, but you know, hey, it at least brings some entertaining weather.

Phil: Let's talk about a couple of games I've been playing.

Phil: I talked to a couple of shows ago about Pentament.

Phil: I really encourage everyone to go out and pick that up.

Phil: It is on Game Pass.

Phil: It's also available on Steam.

Phil: It's a fantastic game and I just cannot say enough about it.

Phil: Another game I played though that I haven't talked about is called Late Shift.

Phil: Now, this is a game that you will not have heard of.

Phil: Again, the name is Late Shift, two words.

Phil: And it's developed by a company you've never heard of either called Control Movie, CTRL Movie.

Phil: Pretty sure they've gone away.

Phil: And this is a branching narrative crime game.

Phil: And it's filmed.

Phil: Well, the branching narrative crime game, Pentament was one of those.

Phil: This one is actually filmed.

Phil: So, yeah, it's what we used to call FMV, full motion video.

Phil: Like, is there still motion video?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: But anyway, this is it's completely filmed with real actors, real setting.

Phil: It's set in London from the look of it.

Phil: Though it could be in any metro area in the UK.

Phil: And so it's got British accents and all that.

Phil: It was not at all what I was expecting.

Phil: I was expecting like a Her Story type game.

Phil: But it wasn't at all.

Phil: This is a game where basically you're watching it just like you're watching a TV show or a movie.

Phil: And it's very high quality.

Phil: Like the sets are good.

Phil: The actors are good.

Phil: The filmography is good.

Phil: The directing is good.

Phil: Everything's good about it.

Phil: And I'm watching it and I'm going, okay, well, when the game starts, it's weird to start with full motion video.

Phil: Again, I'm going to use that stupid term.

Phil: But then I went, yeah, but that, thank goodness you're here, starts with full motion video and then goes into something else.

Phil: I was like, yeah, well, this must be a new thing.

Phil: It's kind of jarring, but in a good way.

Phil: But no, the whole game is in video format.

Phil: And basically, you are making narrative decisions throughout the whole game as to what you're supposed to be doing.

Phil: And you have a limited amount of time to make that decision.

Phil: And then, of course, with technology being what it is today, they cut in the next scene or reaction to what you've just said in real time.

Phil: And it just completely flows perfectly.

Phil: And it's a fun and interesting story as well.

Phil: It's a heist movie, basically.

Phil: And you're drawn into it.

Phil: You play the role of a sad, lonely shift worker who's in charge of a garage for where people are parking their expensive cars.

Phil: And people treat you like garbage because you're just there to take the keys and park the cars and make sure they don't get stolen.

Phil: You're studying, you're obviously a uni student and you're there studying.

Phil: And then, obviously, there's a change in events and a twist and a turn.

Phil: And you've got to decide whether you want to participate or not.

Phil: And from there, the heist goes on.

Phil: Absolutely fantastic game.

Phil: A very top-notch gaming experience and something that is something I'd recommend thoroughly.

Phil: I know for at least it's available on Steam, but yeah, just look around, see where you can find it.

Phil: Netflix had some of these games available as part of their service, most notably a game called Bandersnatch, where basically, again, it was a branching narrative and you got to make decisions, and depending on what you chose, the game would go a certain way.

Phil: And I really enjoyed those games while they were on Netflix.

Phil: Netflix has since closed that down, sadly.

Phil: And you know, it's not hard to see why.

Phil: I guess traditional gamers probably would never even access it or know about it.

Phil: I mean, it is a weird concept to try and get into.

Phil: And for consumers, though, like it would have broad, you know, a broad audience.

Phil: Like, and this is not to generalize.

Phil: This is something I've observed and something many other people have observed that women typically like True Crime.

Phil: That's why True Crime podcasts are the number one category.

Phil: It's why Serial, the podcast, rebooted the whole podcast popularity amongst broader sector.

Phil: People love watching, women love watching True Crime shows.

Phil: They love reading crime novels and watching crime movies on TV.

Phil: I personally cannot stand it.

Phil: I find them repulsive, which is weird for some people to try and figure out because I'm more than happy to sit here and play Serial Sam and kill a thousand monsters in five minutes, but I don't like watching a simple crime story if there's a little bit of human blood in it.

Phil: So I think that if, and you know, they're simple, they're easy to follow along and get into.

Phil: I think they're great couch co-op games, games like this and games like The Quarry.

Phil: Because you know, you can sit there with your friend, so partner and sort of make joint decisions as to which way you want the narrative to go.

Phil: But yeah, so again, the name of the game is Late Shift.

Phil: I got it for not very much money.

Phil: And I thoroughly, thoroughly recommend it.

Phil: Before we get into the other game I've been playing, I feel really bad about the news I gave you guys this week.

Phil: It was all a downer.

Phil: So I've got two more good pieces of news for you.

Phil: This one, the credit goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: The Japanese developer of PAL World, which is the Pokemon ripoff, gave all staff Monster Hunter Wild's release day off in case they, quote, feel unwell.

Phil: For reasons totally unrelated to the release of Monster Hunter Wild, PAL World developer Pocket Pear has given its team a special holiday on the th of February.

Phil: In a memo, staff were advised that as many employees hinted that they may be too unwell to work today, management has decided to give them the day off as a special holiday.

Phil: Quote, on the th of February, we received a series of puzzling reports from many employees that they might feel unwell the next day.

Phil: So we decided to institute a special holiday for the company, the memo said.

Phil: It then confirmed a special day's holiday had been awarded to most departments.

Phil: It's unclear what teams won't be eligible and stressed to players that the time off would not impact PAL World or Craftopia.

Phil: So yeah, that's a good news story.

Phil: I mean, you guys deserve that.

Phil: And you know, another thing you deserve is the Gex Trilogy.

Phil: Gex Trilogy will launch this summer for PlayStation Xbox Series and PC.

Phil: Limited runs announced that the Gex Trilogy will launch for PlayStation well, for those systems.

Phil: Yeah, so basically, I think the Geico Gecko is probably more popular than Gex, certainly better known and certainly more worthy of a game.

Phil: I think I'd rather pay a Geico insurance game than Gex.

Phil: I have Gex, the original on Sega Saturn, and it's not great.

Phil: So that's your good news.

Phil: You can thank me by going to gameunder.net and commenting on the front page there.

Phil: It doesn't require any registration whatsoever.

Phil: Now, the other game I've been playing, this is a game that I've sort of slept on, and I know a lot of you have already played this one, but maybe you can appreciate at least my view on it.

Phil: The game is Spiritfarer.

Phil: That's one word, Spiritfarer, not Spiritfurer.

Phil: I was surprised to see that this came out in

Phil: And you can play it on pretty much everything right now, but it was on PlayStation Windows.

Phil: You can play it on everything, because of course you can't.

Phil: It's a five-year-old game.

Phil: It's made by a company called Thunder Lotus.

Phil: Now, you know, with a lot of these games like Dave the Diver, you know, it looks like it's made by a small indie team, and then you find out that it's actually made by Tencent.

Phil: But this is actually, yeah, it's a small team, and just a little bit about Thunder Lotus.

Phil: All of their games are hand drawn and handcrafted, so they've got a distinctive style to them.

Phil: And certainly Spiritfarer has what most people would call a Saturday morning cartoon-like style to it in terms of its hand-drawn nature.

Phil: What is Spiritfarer?

Phil: It's described as a cozy game.

Phil: What does a cozy game mean?

Phil: I've never been asked to talk about that before.

Phil: I think of, like...

Phil: Oh, like it's a game of basically where you just sort of fiddle with it.

Phil: Like Animal Crossing, I'd consider to be a cozy game.

Phil: And this has certainly got something like it in Animal Crossing.

Phil: I'm just going to do my best here to describe it.

Phil: It did get great critical acclaim when it came out.

Phil: Got nines from IGN.

Phil: PC Gamer gave it an

Phil: And a lot of it has to do with the fact that it's a thought-provoking type game.

Phil: And it's certainly a very sweet game as well.

Phil: It is a game about dying.

Phil: And you might go, well, Phil, that's hardly novel.

Phil: Most games are about dying.

Phil: Serious Sam is about dying several, several times.

Phil: Call of Duty is a game about dying.

Phil: There's very few games that aren't about dying, actually.

Phil: And basically, you are in charge of this small ferry, right?

Phil: That takes people who are about to die on the final stage of their death and usher them into the afterlife, right?

Phil: So the Vikings, you know, they take your body and they push out the boat, they burn a boat, which to me has always been a waste of a good boat.

Phil: But yeah, so basically, what you play the role as a young looking female protagonist, I believe you're some sort of spirit creature because you have a belt buckle that can turn into a number of things.

Phil: It can turn into a hammer, it can turn into a whip, it can turn into a grappling line, a fishing line, I don't know that it can turn into a whip maybe later.

Phil: But it's basically you've got the ability to turn your belt buckle into this spiritual tool that's a contextual tool that as you go throughout the game, you get to open up different parts of the world.

Phil: So in that way, it's sort of a metroidvania as well.

Phil: There's a lot of elements in this game, so I'm going to be making a lot of references to a lot of other games.

Phil: Let's just stick to the story, huh Phil?

Phil: Okay, fine.

Phil: All right, so you see, I don't have a co-host to go talk to myself.

Phil: This is how pathetic it's become.

Phil: You start the game, and basically the dude that used to have your job is retiring, and now you're taking it over.

Phil: So basically you start out with a small boat and your first person, and I'm thinking, oh, this is okay, I'll just drive them over to the place and dump them off and then we'll go, right?

Phil: No, they live on your boat with you until they're ready to die.

Phil: So it's sort of like a real life hospice.

Phil: Now, these people aren't notably sick.

Phil: You know, they're just normal animal creatures, actually.

Phil: They're not people.

Phil: They will take on the form of an animal figure.

Phil: So you've got a frog and an owl and a deer and a lion and a wolf and all these sorts of critters, right?

Phil: Snakes, and you've got to take care of them on the ship.

Phil: And so that means initially you've got to talk to them, hug them, support them.

Phil: Eventually, you've got to feed them.

Phil: So then you'll get a kitchen and then they'll say, they'll all have their own dietary restrictions or personal picadillos.

Phil: So, okay, that's sort of annoying.

Phil: This guy doesn't eat meat.

Phil: This person doesn't eat fish.

Phil: This one won't eat fruit.

Phil: This one doesn't want fancy stuff.

Phil: He wants simple stuff.

Phil: So, okay, that's fine.

Phil: Eventually, you're also exploring a world.

Phil: So you're navigating in a ship from a side view.

Phil: You're going to a little navigation area where you can plot out on a map where to go next and all of that.

Phil: But you're seeing the game in a side scrolling type way.

Phil: The whole thing is side scrolling.

Phil: And you're exploring all of these islands.

Phil: You're finding resources and animals.

Phil: So ultimately, you'll be able to upgrade your ship.

Phil: And so on that, that means that you'll have a kitchen.

Phil: You'll have a way to grow vegetables, to grow grain.

Phil: You'll learn how to spin the grain, some grains like wool and things like that.

Phil: Is wool a grain?

Phil: No, it's not.

Phil: It's still a plant.

Phil: So you'll get, you'll learn how to...

Phil: No, wool is off a sheep.

Phil: Cotton is off a plant.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So you're basically gonna learn how to make linens and threads.

Phil: You'll get a forge.

Phil: So as you find rocks and stuff, you can forge them and turn them into other things.

Phil: You can get sheep, chickens, cows, all on the sheep, on the ship.

Phil: So it's a real sheep show, this one.

Phil: And there's other...

Phil: So there's a proliferation of mini games that you can do in this game to keep you busy.

Phil: So it's basically a...

Phil: Yeah, it's a work simulator in a way.

Phil: It's a management game.

Phil: You're unlocking abilities.

Phil: You're doing side quests for these people and also the people that you visit on the island.

Phil: And it's the first time I've had to use a notebook for years to play a game because it will be like, well, go find this person.

Phil: They're on this island.

Phil: Okay, fine.

Phil: So you got to find this island.

Phil: Then you get to the island and maybe you don't get to the island because maybe there's a iceberg in front of it.

Phil: So now you've got to upgrade your ship to get the thing that goes on the front of the boat to smash through ice.

Phil: Icebreaker, I guess.

Phil: And, but you can't just go and buy an icebreaker.

Phil: You're going to need this, this, this, this and this.

Phil: So now you've got to go around and you've got to find all these things to upgrade your ship so you can go to the island.

Phil: You go to the island, you talk to the guy.

Phil: The guy says, yeah, I can do this, but I'm going to need that.

Phil: You know, so you go do that and then, but to get that, you've got to do something else.

Phil: So it is a lot of convoluted side quests.

Phil: They do keep track of them for you, but you really do need to keep notes as to what you've got going on.

Phil: Otherwise you will, as I did, aimlessly float around in the ocean for days and days on end, not really just chasing your tail.

Phil: It's a very mellow game.

Phil: There's no voice acting.

Phil: No, there's just noises that they come out and say, is as close as it gets.

Phil: Eventually you'll get to take one of your characters to the next world, which is, yeah, I mean, by the time you've spent all this time with them, you've become annoyed by them because they ask you to do all this stuff, you have to cater to their special needs, literally.

Phil: And by the time you get to the end of the game, end of their life, you've learned about them, and you've gone on a journey with them in your boat.

Phil: And they hammered up a fair bit, making it pretty sad at the end.

Phil: And if you've lost someone significant in your life recently, it might not, I don't know if I'd recommend it or not, you know, because it might be just a little bit too raw.

Phil: But, you know, who knows?

Phil: Everyone's different.

Phil: It might even be, you know, play a part in your healing as well.

Phil: You know, for me, I think it played a part in the healing.

Phil: But you know, your results may vary.

Phil: Ultimately though, it's a little saccharine.

Phil: You know, those moments are a little saccharine.

Phil: And they do crank it up in that, you know, you may not be emotionally tied to this customer or this character that's on your ship, but then they'll sort of crank it up.

Phil: They'll crank up the story over the last, you know, minutes sort of thing.

Phil: And then the person will go, hey, I'm ready.

Phil: Can you take me?

Phil: So, oh, and your ship, of course, you keep expanding the ship.

Phil: So you get to move around all the apartments because you're building apartments for these people.

Phil: You're building, you know, sawmills, all that other stuff I talked to you about earlier.

Phil: Crushing machines, forages, gardens, pens for animals.

Phil: It's installed on a D plane.

Phil: So it's sort of like a game I can't remember right now by the guy that did Ute Sido.

Phil: It had a game called, what was his sim?

Phil: It was sim apartments or something like that.

Phil: And basically, yeah, it was an apartment managing game where you had to put the elements together nicely.

Phil: This one's not as complicated as that.

Phil: It's a collectathon as well.

Phil: You can collect all sorts of stuff in this game.

Phil: Unlock recipes in, you know, this doesn't sound particularly compelling, but all of the elements tied together give you something to be doing all the time.

Phil: Like you're constantly doing something the whole time, and it's a pretty good game loop.

Phil: I feel that there could have been some things in there where maybe as an option, not certainly in the default game, but as an option, if it could have had, you know, turn on autopilot, or at least when you go into the map, instead of it just showing you the names of the place, if it could show you, hey, this is where you're supposed to go next.

Phil: Now it does pop up, you know, exclamation points, like, hey, you know, here's the thing, the next story element sort of thing.

Phil: So you can do that, but often you can't get to that point yet because you haven't got a rock breaker or an ice breaker or in my case right now, I don't have a coral breaker.

Phil: And, you know, some of the stuff that the people ask you for, hey, I'd really like this if you could put this in my apartment, you don't have the materials for.

Phil: So you've got to sort of put that mission on hold to go do something else.

Phil: And sometimes you just literally, you cannot advance the main story.

Phil: So you've got to do all this other busy work.

Phil: And I think perhaps in some of it, there's probably too much busy work, but also, I play these games horribly.

Phil: Not all games, but I play directionless games horribly.

Phil: I tend to just go in circles, like I said, chase my tail for hours and hours on end because I don't fully remember where I was from the last time I played.

Phil: If I were playing this on a TV or a PC, I'd never finish this game.

Phil: I would have walked away from it by now.

Phil: But because it's on a handheld, you can get it on Switch or Steam Deck.

Phil: It means you're able to pick up and play in little chunks.

Phil: And as long as I've got my notebook with me, then I can remember what I'm up to and what I'm doing.

Phil: So I'm very close to the end at this point.

Phil: The game on PC is I think about bucks Australian right now.

Phil: I'm sure you can get it cheaper elsewhere as well.

Phil: And yeah, it's a game.

Phil: Would I recommend you play it?

Phil: If you like Metroidvanias, I would say yes, because obviously as you're unlocking skills as well, that means you can go back to islands to get to other things.

Phil: But you've got to like crafting, you've got to like management games.

Phil: The story by itself is not enough to get you by, because ultimately you're dumping these people off.

Phil: You're spending a long time with them.

Phil: I've got this frog in my ship right now.

Phil: It's like, is this guy going to be here forever?

Phil: I thought this was a hospice.

Phil: And so the story in and of itself isn't good enough, but the hand-drawn artwork is fantastic and charming as is the game and the music and everything else.

Phil: So all the elements pulled together, I'd say it's an experience worth having.

Phil: But you've got to be a certain type of gamer that I'm probably honestly not to enjoy it.

Phil: And perhaps you are.

Phil: I'm sure many people are.

Phil: This game got huge kudos when it came out.

Phil: Name of the game, of course, is Spiritfarer.

Phil: That's one word.

Phil: We're gonna close out the podcast, but before we do this, I've got a question, and I will ask Tom this question next episode, but I'll give you a preview of what I think of it right now.

Phil: Danny writes, do you have any gaming turnoffs?

Phil: Not talking about genres, but more subject matter or themes.

Phil: Okay, well, if he was talking about genres, then that's very easy, because real-time strategies, as I've discussed at length, are too stressful.

Phil: I don't like horror games.

Phil: Up until recently, I haven't like rogue-like games.

Phil: So genres, it's easy to draw lines.

Phil: But in terms of subject matter or themes, well, I guess horror is one.

Phil: Themes, I don't particularly like underwater games.

Phil: I don't like games that are underwater.

Phil: Yeah, I'm not sure I can give a good answer to this one.

Phil: I certainly don't like loot box games, and I don't like what loot boxes have done to games like Horizon or any of the sports franchises.

Phil: Like, I find it absolutely impossible to play any K game anymore, even though I was a massive fan of them before the loot box era.

Phil: So yeah, I'd say that that's my turn-offs.

Phil: If you have any turn-offs, let us know.

Phil: Go over to our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: Like I said, if you want to submit a question, you can use the comment section from our homepage.

Phil: Just pick a story and comment on it.

Phil: It'll let me know.

Phil: Thanks for listening to Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: So we've got a lot of resources covering games from that time to now on the website at gameunder.net.

Phil: So thanks again for listening to this solo podcast of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg, and he's not Tom Towers.

Game Under Podcast 167

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:14 Intro

0:02:13 News - Steam Pricing Exploit

0:19:50 News - Spot the Scam

0:27:20 News - Valve Bans Ads

0:32:41 Hardware Review - Steamdeck

0:53:30 What Playing: Indiana Jones

1:07:53 What Playing Doki Doki Literature Club

Transcript:
Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: You're a bit over modulated.

Tom: That should be the intro.

Tom: I'm very over modulated.

Phil: You are over modulated.

Tom: I'm the over modulated Tom Towers, joined by the comparatively docile and under modulated Phil Fogg.

Tom: Passive one might even say.

Phil: Did we mention the name of the show?

Tom: I think we did.

Tom: If not, it's The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: And we did mention the episode at least, episode

Phil: Thanks for joining me for today's episode.

Tom: Are you saying that to the audience or to me?

Phil: Well, I can't hear them.

Phil: I'm talking to you.

Phil: There's a conversation between me and you.

Phil: You would have thought you'd figure this out by now.

Phil:

Phil: That's a lot of episodes.

Phil: We need to do a five hour episode.

Phil: What about, you know, I've got time today.

Phil: How about you?

Tom: I don't have time, unfortunately.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Well, it's our longest episode.

Phil: Our longest episode would have to have been just over five hours.

Phil: It was probably a very small file size because of the technology of the day.

Tom: I would have thought maybe over three hours.

Tom: I can't imagine five hours.

Phil: Well, I'll go back and find it.

Phil: I think over three used to be pretty much our baseline.

Phil: So anyway, this episode will not be five hours.

Phil: But we do have a lot to talk about.

Phil: We've got, I'm going to finally get around, because the Steam Deck is relatively new to Australia, I'm going to finally talk about my hardware review of the Steam Deck.

Phil: And then some games in our back catalog that I've been playing and you've been playing that we want to get into as well.

Phil: I want to catch up with you also about how you're going with Indiana Jones and the Great Circle.

Phil: Because I almost got the impression that you're going to either stay in the Vatican for your entire life or fall off that game.

Phil: So it'll be interesting to see where you're up to.

Tom: I'm now out of the Vatican and we'll see whether I am continuing or not in the upcoming impressions.

Phil: So there's lots of news, but I've done some self-reporting this week.

Phil: I've actually gone out and found some interesting things.

Phil: One of the games that I'm playing right now is called Spiritfarer, which is a game from, I think about two years ago now.

Phil: And that's neither here nor there.

Phil: We'll get to a review of that at some point.

Phil: But I was just reading an article and the thing that was coming up everywhere was that the price of the game had been put up %.

Phil: I'm sorry, the price of the game had been doubled in Argentina and Turkey.

Phil: And the people in Argentina and Turkey are going nuts.

Phil: They're like, this is ridiculous.

Phil: This is like, we can't afford this game anymore.

Phil: And the reason behind it is basically when you publish a game with Steam, Steam basically says, OK, well, you don't have to worry about exchange rates and quality of life and the cost of living in all of these countries around the world.

Phil: You tell us in US dollars what you think this experience should be charging.

Phil: And then we'll take care of it from there.

Phil: And so basically, the game is being...

Phil: The Spirit Fair people found out that % of their sales were coming from Argentina and Turkey.

Phil: But then when they looked at the regional IP addresses of people actually playing their game, like no one was playing the game in Argentina and Turkey.

Phil: So you probably know all about this, right?

Phil: This regional pricing.

Tom: I have heard of it, correct?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So basically, what people will do is they'll change their region on Steam so they can go out and get better prices.

Phil: So I'll just tell Steam them I'm in Argentina.

Phil: I see the Argentina store.

Phil: I get my VPN.

Phil: I presume a VPN is involved in making it look like I'm in Argentina.

Phil: And then I can go buy these games for, you know, we'll say pennies, you know, like peso, pesos in these underdeveloped countries because Steam has adjusted the price so that it's relevant to that marketplace.

Phil: And you'll hear this all the time.

Phil: Like there's a game called While Waiting that came out this week, an indie game on Steam.

Phil: And the person I was listening to said it's $

Phil: I went to look at it in Australia and it was $right?

Phil: Now, the Australian dollar right now is like $of American currency.

Phil: So it should really be a lot more than $but you can sort of see how it tracks.

Phil: $in the States is different from $here, in terms of the value of things you can get with it.

Phil: So this was pretty controversial, what the publisher did, because they basically said, well, we're not going to go with the Steam recommended price.

Phil: We are going to stop people from ripping us off and ripping off this game.

Phil: So yeah, that was a whole new, weird thing for me.

Phil: I'd never heard of this.

Tom: Are they ripping them off, though?

Tom: What if they had that many sales in Argentina and they were genuine?

Tom: Would they not be making money on their sales?

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: Or are they ripping off the rest of the world?

Phil: They're ripping off the rest of the world.

Tom: That would be my take on it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: You explain it more fully again?

Tom: Well, they're essentially selling...

Phil: The publisher.

Phil: The publisher, yeah.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: The publisher is essentially selling a series of numbers that you input into Steam, which magically allows you to play the game.

Tom: Right.

Phil: They're selling a key code, basically, right?

Tom: A generator number.

Tom: And Steam, I suppose, has to pay for the servers on which they store the game that you download it from.

Tom: And if it's online, the servers that the game is played on, is it online or single player?

Phil: It's single player.

Phil: Well, I guess because it's got cloud saves, that's the reason why I make sure I've got the Internet on when I'm playing it, because I want to make sure I can go from one device to the other.

Tom: The cloud saves are operated by Steam, so that will be covered by %, whatever Steam's card is.

Phil: Yeah, you're right.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: No, there's no...

Tom: They're essentially selling something that costs them absolutely nothing.

Phil: Other than their initial...

Tom: Obviously, they have to pay an initial investment.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: But they're not dealing with shipping it to various countries, navigating whatever the taxes on the game is, and the taxes on exporting it to that country, et cetera.

Tom: Right?

Tom: So I would definitely be of the mindset that rather than people ripping them off by switching their IP address to an Argentinian or Turkish one, ripping them off, they're ripping everyone except for the Argentines and the Turks off.

Phil: So does it change the moral question?

Phil: And I'm not saying it does or doesn't.

Phil: I'm just, I like poking your brain around.

Phil: What if people were going into, pretending to be from Argentina, as has been described, and they go and buy codes of this game, because it's essentially going to cost them, let's just say it costs them $per code.

Phil: And that this game sells in Australia, or in the UK and America, for $in our local currencies.

Phil: What if the party that bought the codes for $each, is now reselling those codes for $to $a piece?

Phil: I mean, should the publisher be trying to curb that?

Tom: Well, given that it's currently $for Australians, I would say they're morally better than the publisher is, but not morally good.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: So the party that's scalping would also be in the wrong, for the same reasons, arguably, that the original publisher would be.

Phil: So, if you were now the publisher, right?

Phil: You'd spent, say, $million developing this game, and you employ, say, people in your small studio.

Phil: And you need the money from Spiritfarer to fund development and keep those people employed while you make your next first-person shooter game, or whatever you're making, Untitled Chicken Game, or something like that.

Phil: Aren't you taking food out of the mouths of those people by defrauding them?

Tom: Well, that's what the question is.

Tom: It depends.

Tom: We don't know exactly what their sales expectations were, and what their requirements are.

Tom: Because the way it's presented is not that they necessarily were reliant on a higher number of international sales than sales in Argentina.

Tom: It sounds more like, because the fact that X number of people bought it at the Argentine or Turkish price doesn't mean they would necessarily have bought it at a higher price, even if they were not from those countries, right?

Phil: Right, right.

Tom: So you can't just assume that that's a mis-sale.

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: Yeah, they're still getting money.

Phil: They're just getting less money.

Tom: But they may in fact have got more money than if that option was not available to the people who bought it at that price.

Phil: I guess it also too, there's a thing that we were talking about last time, is that it is a good game.

Phil: There's no question about that.

Phil: It's an enjoyable game and it's creative and all the rest of it.

Phil: And the game is being exposed to people that otherwise would have just probably paid nothing and stolen it through some other fashion.

Phil: And it's basically going to be promotion for the next thing that they do in some way.

Phil: I mean, at a certain point, you're going to run out of people to sell the game to.

Phil: And I guess that's why these games get so heavily discounted on Steam.

Phil: I disagree entirely with the ham-fisted way they've done it, because basically they're punishing the consumers in Argentina and Turkey who would have legitimately bought the game, but now it would be like us going to buy, I don't know, what's a, a cyberpunk.

Phil: And then because people were stealing them in Australia, not stealing, but because people were fraudulently buying them in Australia for $whereas they could get $in the States, if they just basically said, oh, well, cyberpunk for Australians is now $

Phil: Right?

Phil: Like, how is that help anyone?

Phil: That's just hurting you.

Phil: It's hurting your reputation as well.

Phil: And honestly, they would have been better off just discontinuing sales in Argentina and Turkey.

Tom: Would that also be punishing people who wanted to buy in those places though?

Phil: Potentially.

Phil: I mean, like, but see, this could be a steam problem.

Phil: But again, you know, and you'd say, oh, well, if you can also go get this on Gog, and they've got different systems, perhaps.

Phil: So I don't know.

Phil: I guess taking yourself off the steam is basically taking yourself off the Internet for because it's such a dominant marketplace.

Tom: Did they, if they're complaining about this, by the way, did they explain what their pricing differences are based on?

Tom: Were they basing it on currency exchange or what they expected people to be able to pay in the country?

Phil: They were basically saying, look, we didn't we don't even look at this stuff.

Phil: We put in on Steam that we wanted this game to sell for bucks.

Phil: And then we just let Steam do what they do.

Phil: And then we turned around and we say, hang on, our game is really popular in, we're selling a lot of copies in Argentina and Turkey, but no one in those countries are actually playing it.

Phil: What's going on here?

Phil: And so this was, I think, the ham-fisted response.

Phil: So the publisher does have the ability to override the Steam price.

Phil: And I think, again, this is just a ham-fisted, without too much thought.

Phil: They've just gone, oh, well, we'll just push up the price, and it'll stop people from, it'll close this exploit, which is, I guess, what a developer would think of it.

Tom: The way that it's described, though, if they just discovered it as a strange thing happening, doesn't seem to suggest that it was causing their business plans any issues.

Phil: Maybe.

Phil: They didn't really provide much detail on that.

Phil: But one thing I did want to talk about this, and this is kind of screwed up.

Phil: I was reading, there's a consumer that was saying the following, I live in Myanmar, a third world country in Southeast Asia.

Phil: We have no regional pricing.

Phil: If a game is $USD in the United States, it's also $USD here.

Phil: It's a bit weird with all the things that Steam and GOG do correctly.

Phil: They don't, but they don't have regional pricing for my country, whereas Epic does, so credits where credit do, thank you, Epic.

Phil: So there's other whole countries caught up in this stupid thing where just for whatever reason, someone at Steam hasn't bothered to think about the market realities in say, Myanmar, for example.

Phil: And that's basically this guy, he was saying, hey, I'm one of these gamers who have switched to other regions because to get cheaper games, because I can't, $USD is, I'm just obviously exaggerating here, is like a year's income for me.

Phil: I can't possibly pay $USD for a game experience.

Phil: And so he's found his own exploit around this by switching to other regions to price shop basically.

Phil: But yeah, I wonder if what you were talking about last time with Steam totally, and this has been so misreported, with Steam totally killing game library sharing.

Phil: Everyone has, well, not everyone, you've probably found other reporting, but all the mainstream outlets have basically said, oh yeah, this is really good.

Phil: Steam's allowing five people in your family to play.

Phil: And it's like, well, yeah, okay.

Phil: But it's not really, that's not what this is about.

Phil: And that's not the impact that it's having.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: And this is a thing that, this is a change I've noticed in among gamers, if you want to call them that.

Tom: When I was reading on Reddit about this, there were so many people who were defending Steam.

Tom: And anyone who was pointing out that this is a massive step backwards in many ways, there'd be like comments complaining, shitting on them.

Tom: Over the years, when we were at GameSpot years ago, or however long ago it was now, there was a lot of bullshit, people complaining about meaningless bullshit there, of course.

Tom: But if Steam or someone did something like this, which was totally anti-consumer, they would get attacked and there would be no one, if maybe a couple of people defending companies, who have made these decisions.

Phil: They would be happy at that point to get away with a rhetorical attack because you'd also have people like Geohot decide that if Steam did something slightly against Linux, they were going to DDoS you or burn your servers into the ground.

Phil: I know.

Phil: Exactly.

Tom: Whereas now, the majority opinion apparently is boot licking while the boot is on your face.

Phil: I think the common expression these days is ball washing.

Phil: These people are ball washing for Gabe Newell.

Phil: But yeah, but you know, it is funny because I remember when Steam first came out and the world was emphatic.

Phil: We will not know.

Phil: Well, if you want to play Half-Life then you've got to be connected to the Internet, and you've got to get a membership on Steam, our new store.

Phil: And that's the way it was.

Phil: And everyone was protesting it forever and ever.

Phil: And then, but yeah, over the years, everyone is now just a blind adherent to Steam, just as we saw in the Console War years.

Tom: But it's not even in the context of the Console Wars, because within that context, it will be contrasted against whoever you supported supposedly doing something better.

Tom: Whereas here, there's no expectation that anyone would be attempting to do something better.

Tom: It's merely, we should defend bad decisions for some reason, and not expect anyone else to do anything better either.

Phil: I'm not the first one to say this, but the other perspective on the Console Wars was not a matter of this one's merit over that one's merit.

Phil: It was basically, because as you saw, people who had all the consoles or multiple consoles were less involved in Console Wars because they had less invested in an ecosystem.

Phil: So I think that, so basically, if I've gone out and spent $for a PlayStation and I've got $worth of games, I am now fiscally and emotionally invested in this console.

Phil: And if you say something bad about it, then you're saying something bad about me.

Phil: And I think that what's happened with Steam is, we've all invested thousands of dollars into our libraries.

Phil: We're trapped with these libraries.

Phil: It's like a Stockholm syndrome, where it's the exact same thing.

Phil: At this point, everyone's spent so much money, that those who want to defend Steam, will just keep doing it because they want to believe that Steam will be around forever, and they'll have these libraries forever, and that they've made a good choice and a good investment.

Phil: But I don't see this game-sharing thing changing or going away.

Phil: I don't see it.

Phil: And it's sad.

Phil: It's really sad because there's some games that I've been playing recently that I know that you won't buy, but I just would like you to try just to wet your beak on it, and then hopefully you would go and buy it.

Phil: But it's just not doable.

Phil: And with the games that they're playing with VPN detection and all of that to prevent family sharing, I'm wondering how they're not getting on top of this other stuff where people are using VPNs to say, I'm in Argentina, give me the Argentina store.

Phil: Because obviously, it's got to be the same sort of technology being used, right?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: If they know you're using a VPN to share a game, they've got to know that you're using a VPN to back door your way into a third world country's store.

Phil: And I do apologize to the implication of that statement, to the listeners in Turkey and Argentina.

Phil: I know that you're not third world countries, and it's nothing wrong with being a third world country, except for the pollution.

Tom: It used to be with the original usage of the term, depending on your political persuasion, a compliment.

Phil: Well, there you go.

Tom: So we'll just pretend you're using that term.

Phil: Speaking of scams, I'm going to tell you a story.

Phil: And this is, again, my own reportage.

Phil: And you see if you can spot the scam, okay?

Phil: So I buy a gaming PC, extremely happy with it, hook it up to my TV.

Phil: Absolutely love it.

Phil: Changes the way I play video games.

Phil: And then after about a year, maybe not quite a year, after Windows Update, there's now a tattoo on my screen that says, your Windows isn't activated, activate Windows.

Phil: And it doesn't matter what you're doing.

Phil: It's like a watermark that's on your screen, it says activate Windows.

Phil: So I'm like, oh yeah, well, I got Windows with the device, no problem.

Phil: I'll just go in and activate it.

Phil: And oh yeah, where's the sticker?

Phil: Where's the, you know, usually you get a little sticker with the Windows key on it.

Phil: And so I go back, I look through the box, there's nothing in the box, just some rando stickers.

Phil: I don't even know why I kept it.

Phil: And there's nothing there documentation-wise.

Phil: So then I have to figure out where I bought it.

Phil: And I go through this whole thing, I find a thousand emails from me and you, with you telling me what to buy.

Tom: Can I just make an alternative suggestion to solve your problem?

Tom: Take the Windows stickers and stick them on the screen where the watermark is.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: There's no...

Phil: Well, I don't have the Windows stickers.

Phil: There's no Windows stickers, right?

Tom: I thought you said there were stickers in the box.

Phil: No, there were none.

Phil: Just stickers.

Phil: Oh, yeah, there were stickers, but they're not Windows, like random stickers, like, you know, blue dog gaming, you know?

Tom: Okay, so unrelated to Windows.

Tom: You were using the box to store random stickers.

Phil: Yes, and then I threw away the box.

Phil: I went, this is madness.

Phil: Get rid of the box.

Phil: So the box is gone.

Phil: Just to put everyone, everyone can keep up with the story.

Phil: The box is now gone.

Phil: And I found out where I bought the thing from.

Tom: Well, my third solution won't work, which was to cut out Windows from the box and sellotape it to the screen.

Phil: No, not going to work.

Phil: Okay, so I contact them.

Phil: Again, you're trying to spot the scam.

Phil: First of all, I go into Windows support and everything, and they tell you how to open up your activation code thing.

Phil: And I open it all up.

Tom: It's the scam that you bought Windows.

Phil: Almost.

Phil: So basically, they identified that I had an OEM, it was an OEM activation.

Phil: And that under the terms of Microsoft licensing, if you have this sort of activation, they must, as a part of the requirement, put a sticker with your activation key somewhere on the PC.

Phil: No problem.

Phil: So it's a beautiful PC.

Phil: Obviously, they're not going to slap it somewhere.

Phil: I'm going to see it.

Phil: So I look at all six sides of it.

Phil: Rectangular cubes have six sides.

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And nothing.

Phil: So I e-mail the people.

Tom: All sides, technically.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yes, internal.

Phil: And you guys are great.

Phil: I tell everyone about you guys who is relevant, even though I only just now remember who they are.

Phil: I think this weird thing happened after a Windows update.

Phil: They're saying that I don't have it activated.

Tom: We're currently telling all our listeners about them when a problem has occurred.

Tom: So yeah, technically true.

Phil: Yeah, and that's true.

Phil: Except I'm not mentioning the name of the company because I don't want to yet.

Phil: But so.

Tom: So it's the scam that they gave you a trial version of Windows.

Phil: Well, who knows?

Tom: So with no activation code.

Phil: So I ask them and I say, hey, this is what Microsoft says.

Phil: It says there should be a sticker.

Phil: There's no sticker.

Phil: They come back to me and they go, oh, yeah, Windows is weird, hey.

Phil: There should be a JP number on the back of your PC.

Phil: Give me that number and I'll give you an activation code.

Phil: So I go on the back of my PC, there's a quote JP number.

Phil: I give it to them.

Phil: They go, hey, great, Phil, no problem.

Phil: Here's your activation key.

Phil: See you later.

Phil: And I use the activation key and it's fine.

Phil: So what is the scam?

Tom: I think the scam is purchasing Windows.

Phil: Purchasing Windows.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Not on the PC, but you had a box from when you had bought a physical version of Windows.

Tom: I think that's the scam.

Phil: Well, here's the scam.

Phil: I think that this OEM, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: I think they put a temporary activation code in that basically gets you through for a year.

Phil: They've got basically these keys that are like, hey, we need to get onto the computer to set it up.

Phil: They put in this temporary activation code.

Phil: Now, when the activation code runs out, they know that out of customers, most people are just going to go, well, Microsoft says to activate here, click Microsoft Store, buy a copy of Windows, and move on with their lives.

Phil: I think that they think that they can save more money rather than paying for a full license of the activation for every PC that they sell, they'll actually only give an activation key out to people who call in to complain or ask for their activation key, which is why they have that JP number on the back, or PJ number, so that people don't just randomly contact them and say, give me my activation key.

Phil: So they're at least tying it down.

Phil: Okay, this dude here has asked for his activation key.

Phil: We've given him his activation key.

Phil: If someone else calls trying to get an activation key with this PJ number, we won't give it to him.

Phil: That is what I think is what's happening.

Tom: I want to point out, I did identify that as one of the potential scams involved.

Phil: Did you?

Tom: I said they sold it to you with a trial version of Windows.

Phil: Yes, exactly right.

Phil: And I think they were pretty cool about it in terms of at least not being smart enough not to argue with us.

Phil: Because if they argued with me, then I could possibly turn around and go to Microsoft and go, hey, these people, here's my receipt, here's da da da da da da, and then get them in trouble that way.

Phil: But you would agree that I have identified what they're doing.

Phil: I can't see any other reason around it.

Tom: I think that is probably the likely explanation, but I will say you failed to identify the scam of the physical Windows you bought, when you could have merely bought an activation code from eBay for perhaps % or less of the price of officially buying Windows.

Phil: Yeah, well, I mean, for me, it was quite included in the product itself.

Tom: So this Windows box you had was from when you bought the PC?

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Well, no, there's no Windows.

Phil: There's no quote Windows box.

Phil: There's no box.

Phil: The box I'm talking about is the actual computer.

Tom: I thought you had a Windows box that you were storing unrelated stickers in.

Tom: So this was just some random cardboard box in the house that you were storing stickers in, that due to perhaps early onset dementia, you thought was somehow related to your PC purchase.

Phil: For the sake of our listeners, I'll say yes.

Phil: Since we can't stop talking about Valve, here's another one.

Phil: Valve Bands Ads Showing Games.

Phil: Now, does Sky Children of Light have ads in it?

Tom: No, it doesn't.

Phil: It doesn't.

Phil: Any games that you play have ads in it?

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: Credit for this one.

Phil: This is not my own reportage.

Phil: Credit for this one goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Valve has emphasized its rules around advertising, explicitly prohibiting games that force players to watch in-game ads.

Phil: The new rules from Valve confirm that while cross-promotion and product placement are permitted, games that force players to watch or engage with advertising in order to play are not, nor should developers use advertising as a way to provide value to players, such as giving players a reward for watching or engaging with advertising in their game.

Phil: Developers should not utilize paid advertising as a business model, such as requiring players to watch or otherwise engage with advertising in order to play or gating gameplay behind advertising.

Phil: This is where they get a bit catty.

Phil: If your game's business model relies on advertising on other platforms, you will need to remove those elements before shipping on Steam.

Phil: Some options you could consider include switching to a single purchase paid app, in quotes, or making your game free to play.

Phil: So, yeah, I mean, why, why, why, why is this?

Phil: What are they doing?

Phil: Is it, is it?

Phil: I will just ask the question.

Tom: I think maybe as some form of quality control, or I think perhaps potentially more likely, they can't get a % cut of ads outside of the platform.

Tom: That might just potentially be the reason, I think.

Phil: I guess we're still playing spot the scam.

Phil: My thought was that this isn't to protect consumers.

Phil: Consumers can do whatever consumers want to do.

Phil: So like-

Tom: If they're suggesting go to a free to play model, which means in reality, go to a micro transaction or gambling model.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: Then very obviously, they're not protecting consumers, are they?

Phil: No, they're not.

Phil: Yeah, they're basically saying, sell your game, because we'll get % that way.

Phil: We'll make your game free to play, because then we'll get % off your micro transactions and DLC.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: But, you know, I guess the ball wash is for Gabe Newell.

Phil: We'll think this is fantastic as well, right?

Tom: You think so.

Phil: With games like, I guess there must be games, like idle games, where you have to sit and watch an ad, and then before you can upgrade your character, or go to a loot box, every time you open a loot box, maybe you've got to watch your ad, and they're getting revenue that way.

Phil: I don't know.

Tom: I presume there must be.

Phil: Now, this comes on the back of last week, Valve quietly implemented a useful new Steam feature, not Mike Woods, warning users and potential purchases how long it's been since an early access game last received an update.

Phil: Now, on the face of it, I can't spot the scam there.

Phil: It seems like it'd be useful if you're making a decision to buy an early access game, and they're like, they haven't actually done anything on this for like months.

Phil: They're not preventing you.

Phil: They're just providing an advisory that, hey, just so you know, this isn't like an active game.

Tom: I don't see a scam in it either, but it is potentially redundant, given that Steam reviews and forum posts will usually give you pretty good information on those sorts of things.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know how people come across early access games except through word of mouth.

Phil: I mean, I think of when people get into early access games, they're typically pretty sophisticated users.

Phil: And by sophisticated users, I mean, you know, people who are paying attention know what's going on.

Phil: And yeah, it is a bit redundant, I think, because people wouldn't be recommending you go and try an early access game if it had been dormant.

Phil: But, yeah, I guess.

Phil: What's the downside for Steam?

Phil: I guess maybe they're sick of processing refund requests, where people get into a game, realize that it's dormant, and then complain to Steam about it.

Phil: It's pretty much the only thing I can think of.

Tom: It could be.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Now...

Tom: You know, here's the other question on that is, should people not in fact be entitled to a refund, regardless of how much time they've played, if they buy a game that is supposed to be completed, and then it is not completed?

Phil: Well, like you're talking like Cyberpunk, like a game that launches and it's not finished.

Tom: In that case, they did finish it, though.

Phil: Yeah, eventually.

Tom: But I think early on, with Cyberpunk as well, you should probably have been entitled to a refund if you want to want.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And in fact, you'll remember that Sony, by their standards, they kicked it off of their store.

Phil: I don't think it was on Steam.

Phil: I think maybe...

Phil: Does GOG do that?

Phil: Do they put Witcher and Cyberpunk on their platforms exclusively for a while?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So Steam wouldn't have had to deal with something like that.

Tom: Did it make its way onto Steam at some point?

Tom: If not, early on?

Phil: Well, talking about things that make their way onto Steam, I, as I said, bought a Steam Deck.

Phil: They've finally been released in Australia.

Phil: And I'd always said if they bring them out in Australia, I actually even thought about importing one.

Phil: But then you've got to have different power cables and all the rest of it.

Phil: It was just not going to be something that I did.

Phil: So when they did announce it, I went, well, you've been talking the big game about how you're going to buy this if it comes out in Australia.

Phil: At bucks, it wasn't cheap.

Phil: And when you can look at all the other things that you can get for that.

Phil: But at the same time, you know, it comes with your Steam library.

Phil: So it's not like I went out and bought a $PlayStation and then had to start building a library for it.

Phil: And, you know, you always worry.

Phil: Probably my biggest concerns going into it was how many games are going to be compatible?

Phil: Will I have to re-download all my games?

Phil: Because you know, I'm on limited bandwidth.

Phil: And the other concern was, well, you're really buying a controller with a screen and controllers don't really last that long.

Phil: Like what if what if the device is great, but you end up with a wonky left analog stick?

Phil: You know, and I haven't so I haven't resolved that problem yet.

Phil: But yeah, so I went ahead and got it.

Phil: And yeah, for bucks, it comes with a very robust Australian USB-C charger.

Phil: And it comes with a really nice, like firm case for it as well, which is fantastic because any other solution for this, you would not want to be carrying this thing around without a case.

Tom: So you went for the gigabyte version, is that correct?

Phil: That's right.

Phil: I had the OLED.

Phil: So I went, I said, well, I'm not going to pay for memory, for storage because I can always add my own storage later.

Tom: So you can add an SD card to it.

Tom: What sort of extra storage can you add?

Phil: I have no idea.

Phil: I'm sorry to say that I haven't looked into that.

Phil: It's not a proprietary system.

Phil: So you don't have to buy Valve SD cards or anything like that.

Phil: But in terms of what's the maximum size you can increase it to, I'm sorry, I don't know.

Phil: But one thing I did get was the OLED screen because that's something that I just felt like, you know, I've got an LCD switch, and I figured I want this thing to look as good as it possibly can.

Phil: And so that's why I went with that one.

Tom: It sounds like you can add an SSD even, micro SD or play games on an external hard drive.

Tom: But for the external hard drive option, it has to be docked.

Phil: Yeah, and now, so my experience with pulling it out of the box was that I was first put off by its size.

Phil: It looks big.

Phil: Like, so in gaming world, if you're really old, you think of the Atari Lynx as being the biggest handheld console.

Phil: And it's bigger than that by about half an inch.

Phil: So, well, probably about centimeters.

Phil: millimeters, rather.

Phil: So I was, without picking it up, I was like, okay, this is as big as people say.

Phil: But once you actually pick it up, it's really comfortable.

Phil: It's light without feeling cheap, but it's comfortably light and it fits in your hands quite well.

Phil: If you're looking at a picture of it, you might, you know, one of the other things I was worried about was they've got all of the buttons and the cross pad.

Phil: So they've got the four buttons on the right hand side and the cross pad on the left, positioned all the way up into the top corners.

Phil: And then the analog sticks are right there with them.

Phil: And then there's two touch screens, sort of, yeah, touch screens, not touch screens, touch pads, like on a laptop.

Tom: Is it not awkward having the buttons so close to the edges of the controller?

Phil: That's what I thought.

Phil: I thought that that is going to be really uncomfortable.

Phil: But again, once I used them, they were comfortable.

Phil: And I didn't give it a second of thought after hours of play.

Phil: Like, once you start using it, you just, you don't even think about it.

Phil: And I guess it's just probably because that's where your hands, because of the way that you're gripping it, because it's got a formed back to it, or a scalloped back to it, because you're, the way that you're holding it, your thumbs are at the top corners of the device, because that's how you're holding it comfortably.

Phil: So you're not kinking your thumbs down like you would with a switch to get to those buttons.

Phil: So your thumbs naturally lay flat exactly where you want them for those buttons.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: That's certainly surprising when you look at it.

Phil: Yeah, for sure.

Phil: Yeah, I was really concerned with that before I purchased it.

Phil: But then I watched enough videos of people handling it, and I was like, okay, we'll just see how it goes.

Phil: The two touchpads that they have under the analog sticks, the one on the right has haptic reaction, haptic vibration, which is really cool.

Phil: Because depending on the game or what you're doing, you're not just sliding it on a flat surface, you're feeling that resistance as you move it around.

Phil: And then the one on the left doesn't have that for all whatever reasons.

Phil: And also on the front, there's a Steam button, which is fantastic because if you don't remember how to get to navigate, that's basically you press that and it pulls up the normal Steam big picture menu, which I should say, I think Steam has done, Valve has done this very intelligently because they've basically perfected big screen mode over the course of the last few years.

Phil: And they're just using that exact same interface here, which is more of a console like point and click sort of environment, where you're used to using your analog stick to move around and then your trigger buttons or your face buttons for accessing things.

Phil: And so yeah, in terms of the actual GUI, the graphical user interface, it is exactly the same as what you would see if you were playing or using Steam on a big picture mode.

Phil: The cross pads and the analog sticks, in my opinion, were both top of class.

Phil: And like I said, I hope they have a long life because you can't just dispose of them and get new ones if they wear out.

Phil: I presume, I'm sure there's ways to open this thing up and replace those as you can in a regular controller as well.

Phil: But it's not easy.

Phil: And I should say also the screen is inch diagonally.

Phil: So, and it's very, it's as responsive to touch as any modern smartphone.

Phil: So there's no lag, there's no missing, there's no tracking issues there whatsoever.

Phil: I typically try not to touch the screen because I don't want to put my fingers on the screen.

Phil: And you can navigate however you want.

Phil: You can navigate pretty easily.

Phil: On the back, they've also got...

Tom: So you're mainly using the touchscreen to navigate menus?

Phil: If you must.

Phil: You really don't need to.

Phil: I find that in some games that you can use the touch screen as well.

Phil: But because these games are typically built for a PC environment and touch screens are not...

Phil: Touch screen monitors are not very widely used, most games don't support it.

Phil: Speaking of things like that, I was really surprised at how many games work in on the Steam Deck.

Phil: And even games that Valve hasn't certified as being compatible typically work.

Phil: And...

Phil: But yeah, I have also, I think in days, it wasn't very responsive.

Phil: Because, you know, and the easiest way to play that was with the actual touch screen, because I think it was originally a smartphone game.

Phil: But that's quite an old game.

Phil: That's like from I think.

Phil: So, you know, that's perhaps to be expected that the developers are not honing it, especially for Valve.

Phil: But, you know, for all the talk about it not running Windows, it runs something called Proton, which is a layer.

Phil: It's a Linux computer that has a layer, as I understand it, that enables you to play Windows games on the device.

Phil: From my concerns about having to download games, they have a brilliant system where, if your PC is on the same network as the Steam Deck, and you have Steam open in both of them, they basically see each other.

Phil: There's no indication that they see each other.

Phil: But when you go into your library and you click on download, it will immediately put up a blue bar on the screen that says that it's transferring it from your other device, which is very classy.

Phil: Another very slick thing that I personally have to look out for, though, is if there is any disruption to your network, like your daughter coming into the room and hitting the kill switch and turning off the Wi-Fi router, it will immediately just start downloading it from the...

Phil: downloading it itself.

Phil: You'll go, oh, that PC is not here anymore.

Phil: I'll just keep downloading it from our servers.

Phil: Thanks.

Phil: And so, yeah, if there's like lots of network activity, it'll go, I can't see that computer, so I'll just download it from the web.

Phil: So for people like me who are becoming few and far between, who have limited internet, you know, you can have it all set up, and if you're not paying attention, you walk away, you can come back and find that it's downloaded gigs and you thought it was transferring it from the PC.

Phil: And it's quite speedy too, of course, you know, depending on what network hardware you've got, your results will differ.

Phil: The buttons on the back, it's got two triggers.

Phil: They're fantastic, you know.

Phil: And what's the definition of fantastic control or trigger?

Phil: You basically don't think about it when you're playing the game.

Phil: And then they've got Rand Rand Land Lwhich are two sort of paddle buttons that are positioned on the grip at the back as well.

Phil: I thought those were going to be really annoying because it's right where you grip.

Phil: So obviously, if you're playing a game and you're getting into it and you're squeezing hard on the grip, if you accidentally hit those buttons in there, actually mapped to do something, that could be very annoying.

Phil: It hasn't come up yet.

Phil: I don't know that many people use them.

Phil: I have never really been...

Phil: I have to say, I am not a fan of back buttons on controllers, but I'm sure there's use cases for it.

Phil: The only one I could tolerate was the Vita, which you remember on the back of the Sony Vita.

Phil: That whole back panel was its own touch pad, which practically no one supported.

Phil: But it was interesting when they did use it.

Phil: Problems I've had, not really, it's not really the Steam Deck's problem, but what I've been disappointed with is some games don't have, don't support cloud saves.

Phil: And so, you know, there were some games that I was pretty deep into in my PC, and I thought, oh, this is great.

Phil: I'll just pick them up on the Steam Deck, and then you start from the very beginning.

Phil: It doesn't acknowledge your save on the other computer at all.

Phil: I'm sure there's a way to...

Tom: So not being Windows, you can't manually transfer the save over.

Phil: Yeah, no.

Phil: I'm sure there's someone who's come up with a tweak for this.

Phil: But, you know, I don't...

Phil: It's not something I'm going to do.

Phil: I just started one of the games over again.

Phil: And just to give people an idea in terms of compatibility, out of the games in my Steam library at the time I got the Steam Deck, of them were compatible with the Steam Deck.

Phil: And I played everything from small indie games to a AAA game from a major publisher.

Phil: And yeah, I was really surprised.

Phil: Like, I played Titanfall

Phil: I played Sirius Sam...

Phil: Is it or ?

Phil: The most recent one.

Phil: So games that I thought would be very demanding.

Phil: And they look fantastic.

Phil: They look responsive.

Phil: I don't feel like I'm getting a cheapened experience.

Phil: If you don't have a dock, you can buy a dock for this and just do what you do with the switch and it'll come up on your TV.

Phil: But the other thing you can do is stream from the Steam Deck.

Phil: So if you've downloaded...

Phil: If you're in the middle of a game on the Steam Deck and you haven't installed it on your PC, you can use the Steam Deck to stream it to your other PC and play it on that screen.

Phil: I did that for a small indie title.

Phil: I haven't tried it with a bigger game.

Phil: I don't really see the use case for it, because if you're sitting in front of a PC with, you know, like, why would you do that?

Phil: But, you know, I came up with a use case for it.

Phil: I didn't particularly want to go through transferring that game from the Steam Deck to the PC.

Tom: I can't imagine playing it docked, that games would run as well.

Tom: Giving them a screen is around p, which would be why demanding games run pretty well.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: I was, hey, I was really happy.

Phil: I was, for whatever random reason, playing the latest series, Sam, the other night, which, by the way, I think you've got it as well, is a fantastic game.

Phil: It's just fun.

Phil: It's just fun.

Phil: Yeah, the one thing I didn't explore with this is it is an open system, so you can use it as an emulation box, and you can install alternate operating systems, including Windows.

Phil: I am not going to muck around with that at all.

Phil: I'm completely happy using this as a Steam device.

Phil: I've got enough games to play on it, and I've got other ways to explore other platforms from prior times.

Phil: So, you know, I really can't fault it.

Phil: The hardware has a high quality feel, and it's comfortable.

Phil: The number of input options are generous, like, you know, how you want to interact with the game or with the menu, and it's equally comfortable.

Phil: The interface, big picture mode is the best interface of any of the current consoles.

Phil: But the Switch one is not bad.

Phil: And the games play well.

Phil: I haven't found a game other than days that had snags in it.

Phil: And the display, the iLED display is flawless.

Phil: So it's, yeah, is it good value for money?

Phil: Depends on your lifestyle, really.

Phil: So buying the gaming PC and hooking it up to a TV, like I said, changed my life.

Phil: It made me play more games, but having the Steam Deck enables me to play more often in places that I ordinarily wouldn't.

Phil: And it also allows me to play games content that I might not want to put on the big screen and have my wife or my daughter walk in.

Phil: Now, I'm not playing adult games on it.

Tom: You've not been tempted by the myriad of Steam porn games on the front page.

Phil: I have those options turned off.

Phil: Well, because kid walks in the room and I go into the store and it's there, I can't have that.

Phil: But for example, I think you gave me a key for Hyperdimension Neptunia for example.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And that's a game that I would not play on a shared TV, even though there's nothing wrong with it.

Phil: Just obviously, if someone walks in like, what the hell?

Phil: Even like Doki Doki Literature Club.

Phil: There's nothing scandalous about it.

Phil: But I mean, it's an anime game sort of thing.

Phil: So again, if someone came in the room, they'd be like, what are you doing?

Phil: Why are you watching that?

Phil: It's like, well, it's Doki Doki Literature Club and then I'd have to explain it all and all the rest of it.

Phil: So, and yeah, and the other thing too is bite-sized gaming.

Phil: Like it just enables me to just play five minutes here, minutes there.

Phil: I don't have to sit down in front of a computer, turn it on and wait and all the rest of it.

Phil: So, and I've got to say that since I got the Steam Deck, my gaming time on the actual PC has dropped to almost nothing.

Phil: So I'm not saying that's going to stay that way, but yeah, I mean, to me, it's been a really good value.

Tom: Excellent.

Tom: And I think it is possible to install Windows on it.

Phil: Oh yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: The only way I would find a use to it would definitely require Windows to be installed on it, I think.

Tom: And you can get a Trilobyte SD card for under $

Tom: So getting the Gigabyte version.

Phil: Do you say Trilobyte?

Tom: Sorry, ..

Phil: Terabyte?

Tom: Terabyte.

Phil: Trilobyte.

Phil: Trilobytes are like those little fossils.

Phil: I think anyway, how many Gigawatts does it have?

Tom: Are they Troglodytes?

Phil: No, Troglodytes are cavemen.

Phil: They're like...

Phil: Trilobytes are those little shells.

Tom: Cavemen fossilized?

Tom: They're the big fossils, not the little ones.

Phil: Yeah, right.

Phil: Anyway, so Terabyte for under bucks.

Phil: That sounds...

Phil: I haven't come up against it because basically, as I've beaten the game, if I don't think I'm going to play it again, it's still installed on my regular PC, so I just basically just take it off.

Phil: Like if it's a game like Doki Doki Literature Club, I'm not going to be like, oh, let me go back and play that again.

Phil: So I've been keeping the fridge clean, so to speak.

Phil: Now, why do you say you'd need to have Windows on it?

Phil: Is it because you like to play Solitaire or Mind Sweeper?

Tom: So I can play Game Pass and other games on it.

Phil: Yes, of course.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I honestly believe that Microsoft's next console will be this form factor.

Phil: They have produced really good hardware in the past, including laptops and tablets and things like that.

Phil: And I think it just works.

Phil: I think it just works.

Phil: A dockable, portable would be where I think they will go next.

Phil: Because it also, I was going to say keeps the price down, but it doesn't really, I guess.

Tom: So it sounds pretty good.

Tom: I'm not sure I would get one at that price anyway, but I think it would be a good option.

Tom: But I haven't been playing Switch games very much recently, so I think it's unlikely that I would be playing a PC version of the Switch either.

Tom: But you've also got a review on the website, right?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: If you go to gameunder.net and just click on reviews, it's the most recent review in there until I write another game review or something like that.

Phil: But yeah, you can check it out.

Phil: There's photos there showing you everything we've talked about and absolutely everything in the box, which is what I always do with our hardware reviews, so that you can have the full experience.

Phil: And also get some photos with it comparing it to the Switch, the Atari Lynx.

Phil: So just go to gameunder.net and go to reviews and you'll see it there.

Phil: So speaking of, we seem to can't, we cannot get off the topic, or we actually are getting off the topic of Steam, because I wanted to catch up with you on as to where you were with The Great Circle.

Phil: And I guess that all of our listeners are wondering, have you made it out of The Vatican?

Tom: I have made it out of The Vatican.

Phil: Fantastic.

Tom: The dream of I think many people growing up in The Vatican is to make it out of The Vatican, and I have achieved that dream at last.

Phil: And last time we spoke, you said you were not looking forward to it, because you liked the unique environment of it, and you weren't looking forward to going to Burundi or wherever the hell you're going to next in this game.

Tom: Giza in Egypt is the next location.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So that's where you are.

Phil: So yeah, tell us, tell us about it.

Tom: And I'm about to be leaving Giza.

Tom: And unfortunately, I think my fears were correct.

Tom: There's nothing particularly interesting or unique about the Egyptian setting.

Tom: It's very much a generic sort of boom rating desert style thing.

Tom: There are Nazis, of course, throughout it, but it doesn't have the charm of the black shirts in the Vatican.

Tom: And I don't think they really do anything particularly interesting with it.

Tom: The humor of the interaction between Indiana Jones and some of the Nazi antagonists in cut scenes is amusing and very much in line with the sense of humor in Wolfenstein.

Tom: But in terms of the setting itself outside of cut scenes, it's pretty bland and generic.

Tom: And gameplay wise, I think it's a big step back from the Vatican as well.

Tom: The Vatican had a very unique feel, particularly when it comes to modern games with, I think, more focus on more interesting platforming than there is in the Egyptian section, which is a bit more...

Tom: By making the platforming more open in the Egyptian section, they make it less interesting because of how rudimentary the platforming mechanics are compared to other games in this style.

Tom: And on top of that, they throw significantly more enemies at you and put more of an emphasis on gunplay, which is far behind mechanically the first-person beat-em-up mechanics are.

Tom: There's not really any sort of satisfaction to the weapons, tactically or in terms of the audio and visual representation of them.

Tom: They're really just a way that you can get rid of larger hordes of enemies than were present in the Vatican for the most part.

Tom: And despite it being...

Phil: It was surprising to me that with Machine Games Heritage with Wolfenstein, which was a fantastic shooter, most people I hear talk about this game actually say, oh, well, I actually got through the game without using a gun, or I may have used it once or twice, or if I did, it was by accident.

Phil: Can you relate to that at all?

Tom: You can still do that.

Tom: You can still definitely do that.

Tom: But it does save time if you are walking to a choke point or kill zone, if you will.

Phil: I love kill zone.

Tom: Shoot an enemy, and then the AI just has a stream of people running up to be shot by you.

Tom: It saves time.

Phil: OK, so within machine games, we know that they've got the capability to do fantastic gunplay and feel and all the rest of it.

Phil: Do you think that they were downplaying the guns?

Tom: I think they were definitely downplaying the guns to encourage you to play it more stealthily and in a more beat them up sort of style, I would say.

Tom: But I think when I'm not engaged with the setting, I want to get through it quicker, so I'll just employ the most pragmatic approach when I can.

Tom: But I think the main disappointment is them doing nothing interesting with the setting at all.

Tom: They did certainly skirt any sort of commentary on the Vatican during the Second World War in the first setting, but outside of that, at least aesthetically, made it interesting and more detailed than many games would handle that sort of subject matter.

Tom: Whereas that's not really the case here, as I said, they're not really presenting anything that feels particularly Egyptian or anything like that.

Tom: It's just generic, here's a bunch of dudes in Middle Eastern, Mediterranean outfits in a desert with a bunch of Nazis.

Tom: And that's it for the most part, which I think is massively disappointing.

Phil: Well, they are keeping true to the game though.

Phil: I mean, to the movie.

Phil: I mean, the movie was never like a deep examination of the people of the Middle East.

Phil: It was basically using a bunch of extras dressed in Middle Eastern garb as a backdrop.

Tom: But it also wasn't, was the Vatican even in Indiana Jones?

Phil: No, that's their own creation.

Tom: But I think again, it comes back to the whole thing with the awful Troy Baker performance slash direction, is you can be true to something while also doing something interesting as opposed to merely doing a hamfist of pastiche.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Can you not?

Phil: So yes, you can.

Phil: So we agree with that.

Phil: With Giza, right?

Phil: Do you think that after the confines of the Vatican's gameplay and setting, that they basically went, okay, now for chapter two, we're going to broaden this out, show that we're not just a one trick pony, and give people more of an action movie type thing.

Phil: Do you think it's going to funnel back in?

Phil: Maybe you're out there in the desert and you're mucking around and everything, but you're in Egypt, obviously, so you're going to find your way into a tomb or a temple or something like that.

Phil: I just get the feeling that from a game pace thing, they're basically opening it up so they can give you some variety, but then they're going to focus back down.

Phil: But then they're going to focus back down and give you what the strength of the game is, which is what you were playing around within The Vatican.

Tom: As in in the next chapter, you think he may be?

Phil: No, within this one, because it's all open.

Phil: You can choose to do whatever you want, is what I'm getting.

Tom: I don't think.

Tom: One interesting thing about it is, I think they haven't done that.

Tom: What they've done is they've done something completely different.

Tom: So in The Vatican, you had a totally different structure.

Tom: But now, I would say the thing structurally that feels like the most is D Zelda, where you've got this open world with two town centers in it.

Tom: This is obviously a miniaturized version of a D Zelda.

Tom: And then surrounding those, you have several different dungeons and mini-junctions, which are a mixture of Nazi camps and Egyptian tombs to explore.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: So to their credit, they've done something totally different to the Vatican.

Tom: But I don't think it works as well as the Vatican.

Tom: And I don't think it is.

Tom: I think the Vatican works well, because you've got this hyper-focus thing, which allows you an hyper-detailed world, which I think allows you to look past the rudimentary nature of the mechanics.

Tom: When they're moving out into a more open and less detailed thing, the thing that you're sort of engrossing and interacting with on a more immediate level then becomes the mechanics rather than the world.

Tom: And I think the mechanics are not as interesting as the world that they had built for the Vatican.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: So do you think this is different teams?

Phil: Like, do you think that the Vatican was where they started development, or do you think that different teams were working on different parts of it, and then they've put them in this?

Phil: Does the story require that you go through the Vatican first, or could they have started with Giza and then done the Vatican?

Phil: Or for story reasons, does it not make sense for them to do that?

Phil: I'm trying to figure out in my mind, according to your review, why is the Vatican so much richer and deeper?

Phil: Was it a matter that that's where they were spending all their time?

Phil: And then they were like, well, guys, we've got to release this game eventually.

Phil: We've got to move on to other stuff.

Phil: And then everything else was spread in from there.

Tom: I think they want a strong opening that stands out, I would say, would be one aspect of it.

Tom: But I think also having that sort of tight controlled experience, to some degree anyway, because there was a reasonable amount of exploration and non-linearity to the Vatican as well.

Tom: Then having that open up into a wider world, I think is a pretty standard way of pacing a game these days.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Tom: And to their credit, like I said, I don't think it's executed well, but I think it is interesting that they do radically change the structure of the world in the second part of the game, in a way that Tomb Raider and Uncharted and other games that are doing something similar, didn't really do and don't do.

Phil: I can just thinking about Uncharted.

Phil: Yeah, they don't, they give you basically what Uncharted does.

Phil: It's the same game all the way through, but they've got some really entertaining set pieces, some action set pieces by running on the top of a train or a boat sinking, and you've got to figure out how to get out of this massive ship, and those types of set pieces.

Phil: I think with Tomb Raider, it's a lot more deliberate, though certainly by the end of the modern trilogy, where they start getting into some, well, I think all the games got into some fantastical beasts.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know.

Phil: I think that, I always think of the Tomb Raider games as being deeper, maybe because it had the crafting components of it.

Phil: And also there was gradual skills that you're unlocking, whereas in Uncharted, you're basically the dude the whole time, you might find different guns.

Tom: I think the mechanics in Tomb Raider also significantly better than in Uncharted, which helps a lot.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: And you had complexity of using the bow, which was was more fun than...

Tom: But structurally Uncharted and Tomb Raider are very similar in that they're both just consistently building on the start of the game, expanding on it, rather than outside of set pieces offering new things, significant digressions in how the game unfolds, which is so far not the case in Indiana Jones, which I give it credit for.

Tom: It's just that the execution is perhaps lacking a little bit.

Phil: I think too, you've still got, as we spoiled in the last episode, I think you're going on from here to this China, there's a China level, there's a Thai Thailand level as well, I think.

Phil: So I think there's still, it'll be an interesting journey as you continue with this to see where it goes.

Phil: From what you've described, like it or not, it's still very interesting.

Phil: And I think I could say that about a lot of games that you and I haven't quote, liked.

Phil: There's always better games, there's always different ways to do things.

Phil: But it does sound at least interesting.

Tom: I would agree with that.

Tom: And I think I've at least played enough now to have to sunk cost fallacy.

Tom: Yes, so that will keep me going even if my interest wanes even further.

Phil: Yeah, you sunk cost.

Phil: Well, you did pay for a game pass.

Phil: So, you know, you know, you get and I guess that's part of the problem too.

Phil: Like if you went out and spent $on this game, do you quote, value it more than a game that you can just pick up and play anytime you want and put down anytime you want because you didn't particularly pay for it.

Phil: Obviously, you're paying for the subscription.

Phil: Question for you.

Phil: One of the things I did not like about Wolfenstein was there was way too much talking in the cut scenes.

Phil: How have they managed in this one?

Phil: Do you find the cut scenes, do they move along?

Phil: Are they intrusive or do they augment what's going on?

Tom: It definitely moves along at a much faster pace than Wolfenstein.

Phil: And other than the bad direction, they're more positive than a negative, I'm guessing?

Tom: I would say so.

Tom: And the worst part of the direction is without a doubt Indiana Jones.

Tom: I think outside of Indiana Jones, and I would say also the female protagonist who follows you around.

Tom: I think the two main protagonists are the biggest issue with The Game.

Tom: It feels, I would say at this point, more like The Mummy than Indiana Jones, which The Mummy is, that's not necessarily bad.

Tom: I think The Mummy is a very entertaining film, but it doesn't reach the heights of Indiana Jones, to say the least.

Tom: And that is very much the case here.

Tom: It feels like they have gone for a much easier style of storytelling, while simultaneously reminding you that it's meant to be Indiana Jones by having this garish imitation of Indiana Jones.

Tom: And I think one of the major issues with the portrayal of Indiana Jones is Harrison Ford is an extremely physical actor.

Tom: And they've got the voice minus charisma and interest well replicated, but they don't even have a literal recreation of the physicality of Indiana Jones in the animation of the game, which I think further diminishes the portrayal of that character.

Phil: Okay, anything else on this this time around?

Tom: I don't think there's anything else to add at this stage.

Phil: I'm now going to talk to you about a game called Doki Doki Literature Club, and the listener might go, I think I've heard of that game.

Phil: It is a game from and it was developed, written, music, everything done by one dude named Dan Salvato.

Phil: As far as I can see, he hasn't done anything else.

Phil: And he was previously known for his modding work on Project M.

Phil: So it's a visual novel.

Phil: Have you played any modern visual novel with an anime theme?

Tom: I have actually played Doki Doki Literature Club.

Phil: How much of it?

Tom: Let's see what it says on the screen.

Phil: Do you remember how far you got with it?

Tom: I've apparently played minutes.

Phil: Okay, so you've not...

Phil: Okay, so look, I'm just going to say this review will spoil the experience for you, listener.

Phil: If you want to play Doki Doki Literature Club to see what it's all about, you can.

Phil: It will take, I think, about two to three hours of your time, and you will have to sit through a very long, dull, barely interactive visual novel for most of that time before you get to the interesting part.

Phil: And when you get to the interesting part, it's also not interactive.

Phil: So in a way, this is a presentation of a very interesting story through the form of a video game.

Phil: But it's not, I wouldn't call it a game.

Phil: It's not a very interactive experience.

Phil: It's about, a choose-your-own-adventure book would be more interactive, okay?

Phil: I'd classify it as a digital experience more than a game.

Phil: And the consequences of how you nudge the story one way or the other were completely without consequence.

Phil: So, does that, so I think that by me describing the game and telling you what the game is actually all about, you'll at least know what Doki Doki Literature Club is, so that you can think about it in the context of other games and gaming in general.

Phil: So, that's why I'm spoiling it.

Phil: If you don't want to be spoiled for Doki Doki Literature Club and you want to sit through that long boring thing so that you can see something that's actually very cool, then I'd say use the chapter markers on your podcast machine to skip forward to the next segment.

Tom: I'm not sure you're doing a very good job of sounding it so far if your reaction was positive.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, I'm going to say that again, it's a word I've used a lot today.

Phil: It's interesting and it has received positive critical attention for the use of its horror elements.

Phil: So basically, you start up the game.

Phil: If you go into it cold as I did, you probably would never get to the good part because if someone just said, hey man, play this game.

Phil: I went into it knowing there was a twist because it's impossible not to know that there's a twist in this game.

Phil: I think I got this game for free.

Phil: It somehow turned up in my Steam library.

Phil: And basically, I've played these visual novels before.

Phil: Not very much.

Phil: It's more of like a dating sim visual novel, right?

Phil: So you are ostensibly a high school aged boy who wants to join a social club.

Phil: You've known a girl your whole life that you has been your neighbor and you walk to school with her.

Phil: And it's social club day at the high school where you get to pick what social club you're going to join.

Phil: And you feel some loyalty to this Plutonic friend of yours.

Phil: It appears that she has a crush on you, but you can't quite tell.

Phil: And she says, hey, why don't you join my literature club?

Phil: We get together and we read books together, and then we talk about the books.

Phil: So you turn up in this classroom, unconvinced.

Phil: And then basically, two other, I'm gonna say, they're all anime high school girls, right?

Phil: So they've all got, you know, distinct proportions.

Phil: You know what, they're anime girls, right?

Phil: So they get the long, pretty hair.

Phil: It's funny.

Tom: Distinct proportioned anime girls.

Phil: Distinctly proportioned, yes.

Phil: And so, you know, it's eye candy.

Phil: It's good, you know, and you're basically talking to them.

Phil: Now, they will talk for a very long time, and you basically are just sitting there pressing the button.

Phil: There's no interactive dialogue.

Phil: You're not picking a dialogue choice, you know.

Phil: But obviously, you're just pressing the button on the controller.

Phil: So there's no, yeah, it's not anything like that.

Phil: So you basically can see that these three girls have in some way or another, interested in you romantically because you're the only boy in this very small literature club.

Phil: And the only interactivity that is in the game is a mini game where you get to write poems.

Phil: So basically, after about to minutes of pressing a button to advance text, and you're looking at a very static picture, they've got an anime classroom in these three girls, and they're very flat.

Phil: They have very few animations, like they might blush or they might move left or right, sort of like in Phoenix Wright, if you can think of that, but not as sophisticated.

Tom: I think the poem writing was when I quit.

Phil: Yeah, so you get to the poem writing, and you basically, as you pick the words, you can see the girls react differently to it.

Phil: So the emo one, if you start picking emo words, she then becomes more attracted to you, and then she's going to date you, right?

Phil: Then there's a cute little girl who, you know, if you do...

Tom: I've just got to interrupt you with a totally unrelated anecdote here.

Tom: Are you familiar with the euphemistically termed data annotation job?

Phil: Nope.

Tom: Well, this is how AI actually works, which is humans performing the judgments of AI, which at some point in the future will supposedly end, right?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So this is, as I understand it, this is the secret behind TikTok's algorithms.

Phil: They just have lots and lots and lots of people watching videos and then categorizing them by tags.

Tom: And yes, but also like ChatGP or other generative AI or search engines are all essentially initially, but continuously run by humans making a judgment on things that are presented to them.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: With the simplest example of this being catch bits, where a human has to decide what an image is, so that an AI can decide themselves.

Tom: This is an endless process that is still continuing while AI is supposedly running, right?

Phil: Okay, yep.

Tom: I looked out of curiosity at one of these programs, and they pay apparently, the beginning wage is US dollars an hour.

Phil: Yeah, fair enough.

Tom: Yeah, in their job interview, one of the things they had you do was, you had to look at two examples of a poem, and you were meant to choose the poem that was more tragic than the other poem.

Tom: This is the level of understanding of poetry by tech billionaires who have created these genius level AI programs, right?

Phil: Yep.

Tom: So you had to choose which was the more tragic poem, and the way you obviously were meant to choose which was the more tragic poem was which poem had the more emo words.

Phil: Right?

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: So this was the level of literary analysis that AI is being trained with.

Phil: Fantastic.

Phil: So back to the game.

Phil: So I've got to say, there's three-

Tom: We're just, in the game, we've got simultaneously the same level of literary understanding occurring, I think.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But at least it's within the context of a narrative.

Phil: Sort of.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: So you've got, and I've got to mention, there's three girls that you're trying to gain the favor of or whatever.

Phil: And then there's another girl who runs it, who comes in on the side of the screen from time to time, right?

Phil: Her name's Monica.

Phil: And so yeah, there's a cute girl.

Phil: So if you pick words in your palms like puppies, cotton candy, she becomes more interested in you.

Phil: And then there's a vanilla girl.

Phil: You got the emo, you got the little girl, and then there's a vanilla girl who, you know, whatever.

Phil: She's pretty generic.

Phil: So obviously, I will go, okay, well, the emo one is tallest.

Phil: I'll try that one.

Phil: So obviously, when you do this, you're making the emo one like you more, but the other two characters like you less.

Phil: So then as the story goes on, you will then go and sit with the emo girl.

Phil: And this is over the course of many days.

Phil: It's got light, romantic stuff in there, like, you know, your hand brushes against hers, and this, that, and the other, and that makes you feel this way.

Phil: And you see her blush, and she suggests that you sit closer, and they can read the same book as opposed to reading two different books.

Phil: But, you know, it's sort of that sort of low-level romance type thing.

Phil: So at a certain point, you find out that one of the other characters that you haven't been talking to, I think the vanilla one, essentially, you know, because you keep doing these poems every day.

Phil: So obviously, you keep driving up the interest of one of the characters and not the other two.

Phil: And your friend is the one who encourage you to join it, the vanilla girl.

Phil: She commits suicide, right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So, okay, there's a shocking twist, like what's happened here?

Phil: And then the game ends.

Phil: Then the game comes back and you start again.

Phil: And you've just gone through this long, tedious, boring thing that you barely want to even read.

Phil: And now you're having to start again.

Phil: And it's the exact same game again, except now you can get through the text faster.

Phil: And now the girl that committed suicide is not in the game at all.

Phil: And there's no mention of her at all.

Phil: And then Monica starts to play more of a role.

Phil: Now, after playing this, you start to...

Tom: Is the twist that Monica murdered the suicidal girl?

Phil: Well, the twist is that you were playing this light, romance-based visual novel, trying to seduce these girls, and then all of a sudden, one of them has gone and killed herself.

Phil: And that's the end of the game.

Phil: So...

Tom: That's how bad you are at seduction.

Phil: Then you notice that...

Phil: I noticed that the screen was tearing in places, and I was like, did I see that?

Phil: Is this something wrong with the Steam Deck?

Phil: Or...

Phil: Okay, whatever.

Phil: And I keep playing.

Phil: And then you'll notice that these graphical glitches continue to increase, and words start disappearing.

Phil: And then is...

Phil: You're like, okay, well, I'll start to seduce, for want of a better word, this other girl.

Tom: Romance.

Tom: Romance.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And basically, things get worse and worse and worse, and then that character gets killed as well.

Phil: And a very...

Tom: Tom was right.

Tom: Your...

Tom: Your Riz game is so bad, you're driving to suicide.

Phil: Yes, exactly.

Phil: And then this is a really violent one, right?

Phil: And then you're like, okay, maybe this is now going to turn into a murder mystery game.

Phil: So it plays on and on.

Phil: And then eventually Monica tells you that she is a self-aware character in the game, and that when she found out that she was not even a romance option in the game, she decided to start taking out her anger because she's truly in love with you, and she truly understands you and by the poems that you've been writing.

Phil: And she wants you to be in her world and her to be in your world.

Phil: And so she goes and kills all the other characters in the game because she has access to the code of the game.

Tom: So I was right.

Phil: Yeah, she, yeah.

Phil: And at first you think when the girl kills herself, one of these other girls, based on the poem that she left, she's been bullied into doing this.

Phil: Or no, maybe it was me.

Phil: Maybe if I'd been nicer to her, this wouldn't have happened.

Phil: God, I should have seen all the signs and she wouldn't have killed herself.

Phil: But basically Monica is a self-aware member of the game and she's been going in and changing the code so that she can be with you and only you.

Phil: So you get to what appears to be the end point of the game where the game starts over again, except now she's the only one in the literature club.

Phil: And she just keeps talking to you and you go, okay.

Phil: And so obviously the game's trained you.

Phil: You just keep clicking these buttons to get through this, this text, but it just, it doesn't stop.

Phil: It will keep going for hours and hours and hours without repeating.

Phil: Right?

Phil: Now I didn't, I was like, okay, I get it.

Phil: This is the end of the game.

Phil: Turn the game off sort of thing.

Phil: And then I turn the game back on and she's like, oh, you're back.

Phil: And then she keeps talking and talking, talking and you're like, okay, there's got to be an end point here somewhere.

Phil: So if you go into the actual Steam library game folder and delete the folder named, this is now you're going into your Windows, right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Obviously this didn't occur to me to do this.

Phil: I had, I looked it up because I went, what is this game?

Phil: And apparently how you get the game to advance is by going into your Windows directory, going into the game files and deleting the file or folder named Monica, right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So then you do that, you start up the game again and the game starts again, except now Monica is not there.

Phil: And all the other characters are there, and they have no knowledge of who Monica was or anything else.

Phil: And so I'm going to tell you that that's where this wankery stopped for me.

Phil: I went, okay, now you can do other things and it will play out, and there's good endings and bad endings.

Phil: And if you've seduced all three of the girls and you get this cut scene, and you know, I am not doing that.

Phil: I was like, okay, fantastic.

Phil: I saw the gimmick, I saw the turn.

Phil: I've got enough out of this game that I'm just leaving it.

Phil: I'm not going to go any further with this stuff.

Phil: So that's the crux of it.

Phil: It's a visual novel with romantic interests.

Phil: The game glitches out.

Phil: You can't figure out what's going on.

Phil: She admits that she's self-aware and she killed all the other characters.

Phil: She then traps you in the game, which is exactly what she wants.

Phil: So you then have to leave the game, destroy the folder, and then the game will actually progress.

Phil: So that's what I'm saying.

Phil: Is it worth the payoff?

Phil: Only you can answer that question.

Phil: Look, it's unique.

Phil: I mean, I don't know what I would have done differently other than not make the game.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know.

Phil: I still don't know what I think of the game.

Phil: All I know is it is unique, and it was the work of a single dude.

Phil: And I guess it's a good experience.

Phil: It's a digital experience is what I'm calling it.

Phil: It's not a game.

Phil: So it's not a game.

Tom: I think it's a game.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: Sounds like a game to me.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So would you go and play this now, do you think?

Phil: Or do you think you get enough?

Phil: Is it one of those ones where you can sit and watch the movie for eight hours or you're just going to read the Wikipedia entry and that's good enough for you sort of thing?

Tom: I went into it based on the press and enthusiasm for the game at the time, that the characters were interesting and the story was interesting.

Tom: And I got sick of it in minutes.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I guess that's part of the joke.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I mean, is that part of the joke?

Phil: Is that part of the joke?

Phil: Is it do you need the slow build for it all to pay off?

Phil: Because if they just jumped into it after minutes, you'd be like, there's no payoff, you know?

Tom: I think it makes sense that you would, but I was expecting, I think, an enjoyable experience outside of a twist.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Which you're not going to get.

Tom: But you could have got if the writing was as good as people claim it is.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: The writing is not that great.

Phil: In my perspective, there's nothing different about it.

Phil: It just felt like playing any of these generic visual novel type games.

Phil: I think that if you went into it, like if you were a visual novel fan, and you somehow were playing this and you didn't know anything about it, it would probably, because it does challenge, like, okay, it does sort of challenge the players of these visual novels to sort of confront, what are you doing with your time sort of thing.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know.

Phil: I really don't know, and I'm sorry for the listeners that this is where this review is ending, because I usually like to be able to give more certainty to it.

Phil: I guess probably if you listen to my opening remarks, you know, is the gimmick worth it?

Phil: The gimmick's not worth it in my perspective, but it was still an enjoyable enough experience in that it was unique and completely different from anything else I'd played.

Phil: And I think with that, it's probably a good time to, unless you've got any other statements about Doki Doki Literature Club.

Tom: Are you going to give it a score?

Phil: I'm not.

Phil: I'm not going to give it a score, because I'm completely unresolved.

Phil: As a creator-

Tom: I'm going to roll the die of destiny for you.

Phil: I'll tell you what, as a creative work, as a creative work, I think quite highly of it.

Phil: The execution of it, I guess I can't fault, because again, the long boring stuff sets up the back end of the game.

Phil: And from a unique factor, that's also a very big positive attribute.

Phil: So I guess I'm going to give it a positive score, which is about as reluctant-

Tom: Yes, but it depends on the die of destiny.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Give it a go.

Tom: Yeah, give it a zero out of ten.

Phil: I didn't know the die of destiny.

Tom: No, no, no.

Tom: Correction.

Tom: Sorry, sorry.

Tom: I just forgot the zero out of ten on the die is actually the ten.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: With the way the die is arranged.

Tom: So you gave it a very, very positive score indeed, a ten out of ten.

Phil: Oh, you know what?

Phil: That'll be good clickbait.

Phil: Phil gives game ten out of ten.

Phil: Listen to his baffling review.

Phil: Phil eventually gives, after the longest winding road review he's ever done, gives a game a ten out of ten.

Tom: With that, I think it's a more deserving ten out of ten than the last of us.

Phil: So yeah, for sure.

Phil: Yeah, for sure.

Phil: Especially.

Tom: I'm going to interpret your score though, as you interpret mine.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: I think you give it a, but I'm going to use my rating system.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: I think you give it a six out of ten.

Phil: That's the number I was thinking you were going to give it based on your scale.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think that's about right.

Phil: I think that's about right.

Phil: It's kind of like the long hike to a view, and the view is worth it, but the long hike was about six hours longer than I would have wanted it to have been sort of thing.

Tom: And I've got based on my minutes, minutes, because I doubt I'm going to go back to it.

Tom: I'm going to roll the Diode Destiny as well.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: A dual score folks.

Tom: I give it a four out of ten.

Phil: Four out of ten, which is about right.

Phil: On your scale, I guess.

Tom: And based on what you've heard of it, what would you say I will give it?

Tom: Based on my two second impression.

Phil: I think that this sounds like a game that you would go to bat for, and you would berate me and beat me down until I finally concede that yes, okay, it's worth a good score.

Phil: So I think that you would give it a good score on your scale, which is probably a six to a seven.

Tom: So we're pretty much in agreement then, apparently.

Tom: Yeah, but my main issue with it is, which I found is a problem with trying to play any visual novel.

Tom: If I'm essentially just literally reading text, why would I not be reading a book instead?

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: And because there's no interaction, the pushing the button is the same as turning a page.

Phil: You know.

Tom: Which is a form of interaction.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I guess you could actually, you could, and I bet there is books like this.

Phil: You could actually replicate this game in a book.

Phil: Like if you're reading this long romance type novel book, and then you get to a page and then like the next pages.

Tom: I'm trying to page number or whatever.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: The next pages are completely blank.

Phil: And then from there, it turns into a pornographic magazine.

Phil: And then it's pornographically violent.

Phil: And then there's dead sheep everywhere.

Tom: I think we've uncovered the real issue with the game here.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: You're expecting a lot to see a lot more of these proportions.

Phil: Distinctly proportioned anime girls.

Phil: That's my biggest beef with the game.

Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: So there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website, which is gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, use the comment section from our homepage.

Phil: You don't have to log in or register or anything like that.

Phil: And I want to thank you for being on here.

Phil: And thanks again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Game Under Podcast 166

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

00:00:04 Intro

00:02:24 Edge Magazine's Top 10 of '24

00:11:48 Switch 2 Reveal Trailer

00:15:53 Game Awards Games of Note

00:21:46 Aussie Game Industry is Fine

00:25:04 Shuei Yoshida Was Pushed

00:27:25 Tom Played Indiana Jones

00:49:58 Phil Played Pentiment

01:08:32 Games Phil Bought

01:18:52 E-mail

Transcript:
Tom: Heil und Willkommen to episode of The Rike Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host, Heinrich Himmler, and I'm joined as ever by the Axeman, Arthur Axeman.

Phil: Yeah, jahwohl, I think that's what I'm supposed to say.

Tom: I think so.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Thank you.

Phil: What's your, what do we call you?

Phil: Fuhrer?

Phil: I'd be Fuhrer Fogg, I guess.

Tom: We're not the Fuhrer.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: The Fuhrer's name didn't illiterate, so neither of us could be Adolf Hitler, unfortunately.

Phil: So you'd be-

Tom: I'm Heinrich Himmler, and you're Arthur Axeman.

Phil: But I guess you'd be Her Towers, yeah?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I've all heard of Towers.

Phil: Och Tung.

Phil: And Och Mein Lieben.

Tom: Och Tung listeners.

Phil: Och Mein Lieben.

Phil: All of my German is from-

Phil: learned from what playing Wolfenstein D.

Phil: Alfie de Sein, we better get on to this podcast.

Tom: We're already on it.

Phil: Unless you've got anything else to say about that.

Tom: Just for clarification, both of us, well, certainly I've been accused of being autistic at some point, and I'm the one who did the introduction.

Tom: So there's nothing suspicious going on here.

Tom: I'm just someone who may potentially be autistic.

Phil: Definitely on the spectrum.

Phil: So I've just-

Tom: Rainbow spectrum.

Phil: The rainbow spectrum.

Phil: I've got-

Phil: we've got lots of news today.

Phil: We've got lots and lots to talk about.

Phil: It's been a while due to various things in our personal lives.

Phil: But we've made up and now we're back to do the show.

Phil: So we've got lots of news to talk about.

Phil: You've been playing Indiana Jones, which is a lot of people's consideration for Game of the Year

Tom: I have indeed.

Phil: I've been playing the hell out of my Steam deck.

Phil: I've beaten like six games in days.

Phil: One of those games is Pentament, which is also available on Games Pass, but I paid good money for it.

Phil: Yeah, that's by Obsidian.

Phil: So we'll be talking about that and getting into some other games and emails as well.

Phil: But for right now, just now, minutes ago, I received the most recent issue of Edge Magazine.

Phil: Are you familiar with it?

Tom: I am indeed.

Tom: I think that's about masturbation over a long period of time.

Tom: It covers the phenomenon of edging?

Phil: No, you're thinking of Edge Monthly.

Phil: This is Edge, the future of interactive entertainment game.

Phil: And they've got their games of the year list.

Phil: So we can't let a magazine produce a list of great games without commenting on it.

Phil: Now, I'm not going to go through all of them because I've got best visual design, game of the year, or we go through the game of the year.

Phil: PC game of the year.

Phil: Go through that very quickly.

Phil: Tactical Breach Wizards.

Phil: Heard of it, not played it.

Tom: Don't think I've heard of it.

Phil: Frostpunk

Tom: I've certainly heard of that.

Phil: Heard of it, not played it by Bit Studios, and UFO was their winner.

Phil: I've played some more of UFO

Tom: Does it get any better?

Phil: It certainly does.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Once you get into it and you're sort of understanding where they're coming from, it gets better and the games are legitimately good as well.

Phil: Of interest on the Xbox, their winner was Indiana Jones and The Great Circle.

Tom: Which is surely just an horrendous title.

Tom: The Great Circle.

Phil: Yeah, what's so great about it?

Phil: There's no corners for one.

Phil: The runner-up was Stalker out of Chornobyl and Dungeons of Hinton, Hinterburg.

Phil: There wasn't a lot of competition for Xbox exclusives.

Phil: PlayStation runners-up was Helldivers and Final Fantasy Rebirth.

Phil: And when it was Astrobot.

Phil: Nintendo's Game of the Year, Shuren the Wanderer, the Mystery Dungeon of the Serpent Coil Island.

Phil: Speaking of horrible names.

Tom: Could you just repeat that?

Phil: Yeah, I'd be happy to repeat that.

Phil: I get paid by the word.

Phil: Shuren the Wanderer, the Mystery Dungeon of the Serpent Coil Island.

Phil: Serpent Coil is one word.

Tom: Can you repeat it three times as quickly as you can?

Phil: Shuren the Wanderer, the Mystery Dungeon of the Serpent Coil Island.

Phil: Shuren the Wanderer, the Mystery Dungeon of the Serpent Coil Island.

Phil: Shuren the Wanderer, the Mystery Dungeon of the Serpent Coil Island.

Tom: Well done.

Phil: Yeah, I'm a professional, man.

Phil: Of interest is developed by Spike Chunsoft.

Phil: Do you know about Spike Chunsoft?

Tom: I think I know Chunsoft.

Phil: Yeah, Chunsoft.

Phil: I don't know where the Spike comes into it, but it would have to be the same company.

Phil: Chunsoft, of course, was famous for developing a lot of games for the major publishers like Nintendo and Sega, but getting none of the credit.

Phil: They've been a background studio for years.

Phil: We'll just skip over to their top shall we?

Tom: So is this their first big game under their own?

Phil: I don't know, no, because I've seen their own thing, and I've seen their other games out there.

Phil: Most Northern Game went to Thank Goodness You're Here.

Tom: They created that because they wanted to give it an award, but couldn't look out where.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Who doesn't love Big Rorns, Big Pies?

Phil: Now, did you play Pacific Drive?

Tom: Don't think so.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So, one of the things about Edge I've noticed over the last year, if they put a game on the front cover, it will bomb.

Phil: They used to put surefire hits and things that would attract people at a newsstand on their front cover, but now that no one buys magazines on newsstands anymore, they just do whatever game they want to promote.

Phil: And I haven't seen a single game in the last months other than Indiana Jones that they've promoted on their cover, that has gone on to do well.

Phil: They've all actually bombed.

Phil: So number Helldivers

Phil: Number Sheeran the Wonder of the Mystery Dungeon of the Serpent Call Island.

Tom: So there aren't many exclusives for either.

Phil: Well, this is the top

Phil: This is the overall top

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So Helldivers and that other game.

Phil: Frostpunk at

Phil: Number is Arco.

Phil: I forgot all about Arco.

Phil: Developed by, published by Panic, which always gets my interest because they do good work.

Phil: So I'll have to look into that one.

Phil: If you have any comments on these games, let me know.

Tom: None of them really grabbed my attention, I have to say.

Phil: I was interested in the zeitgeist of Helldivers but that was about it.

Phil: All these other games I'm not that interested in.

Phil: Number Final Fantasy Rebirth.

Phil: I just had a hard time slogging through the first Final Fantasy remake.

Phil: Not because it's bad, it's just an RPG and it's long.

Phil: I don't get all the time on a PlayStation

Tom: And you got to pay three times the amount you normally would for a game.

Phil: That's true, that's true.

Phil: Number five, Metaphor Refantasio, which is the game from Sega developed by Atlas in the Persona world.

Phil: That got Game of the Year from IGN, I believe, and a couple of other outlets.

Phil: So an RPG.

Phil: Number four went to Animal World, which I've heard of, but not, it's a single button game.

Phil: I've not had any interest in it.

Phil: Number three, Lorelei and the Laser Eyes from Anapura.

Phil: They developed it.

Phil: I'm sorry, published it.

Tom: Do we categorize that as a good or bad title?

Phil: Lorelei and the Laser Eyes is a fantastic name.

Tom: I think it works maybe as a David Bowie album.

Tom: I don't know if it makes me interested in a game called that though.

Phil: No, that's a perfect reference.

Phil: It's certainly a memorable name.

Phil: When I saw the graphical style of it, it's in the Killer type style, if you remember that game.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's in that style and it's not for me.

Phil: When I heard about it being described, I thought it was going to be like a D type game, but not at all.

Phil: Number UFO

Phil: I believe this game graced the covers of Edge twice over about a six-year period over the long length of its development, so that was their favorite.

Phil: Number any guesses?

Tom: Maybe the Zelda?

Phil: No.

Tom: The Zelda didn't even make the top

Phil: No, it didn't make a lot of number s because it was released way back in the first quarter of so people forgot about it and other games came out.

Tom: What about Bellatro?

Phil: Bellatro has been getting a lot of awards as well.

Phil: It's recently sold million copies.

Phil: It was revealed yesterday.

Tom: Elden Ring?

Phil: No, no, not Elden Ring.

Tom: Silent Hill ?

Phil: It's a good guess, but no.

Phil: I was going to say it will be obvious when I tell you.

Tom: Okay, go ahead.

Phil: Astro Bot.

Tom: Okay, of course.

Phil: Yeah, so what do you say, of course?

Tom: Well, that's had a lot of hype, so as you said, it will be obvious when you mentioned what it was.

Phil: So yeah, okay, it's a list.

Phil: I mean, there's a lot of great games on that list.

Tom: So what is so great about Astro Bot?

Phil: I think it's just a very beautiful in terms of its graphics.

Phil: Mario Odyssey style platformer that has lots of Sony nostalgia.

Phil: Really good sound design that they were able to take advantage of by using the haptic feedback of the PlayStation controller.

Phil: This is basically, that's the summary of the good things about it.

Phil: We got rewarded for being a rare thing that we have these days, which is a mascot D platformer.

Phil: With good game play, good bosses.

Tom: I mean, Nintendo seems to manage to release a Mario every year.

Phil: Well, they don't though.

Phil: I mean, the last D Mario they released was Odyssey.

Tom: But they released D ones too.

Phil: They do.

Tom: You did say D, so that's a fair point.

Phil: Yeah, D platformer.

Tom: But if we're getting at least two per generation, is it that rare?

Phil: Well, compared to the Nera and the PlayStation era, I'd say it's fairly rare.

Tom: We've had eras since then though.

Phil: Yeah, I know.

Phil: The question is, well, that's what I'm saying.

Phil: It's rare.

Phil: It's become a rare thing.

Phil: We used to get like of them a year at least, in your tie, the Tasmanian Tiger days.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: And Conker's Bad Fur Day and all that stuff.

Tom: But what if we include indie games within that?

Phil: Well, how many indie D platformers do you see?

Phil: I mean, because they're more complex to make than...

Tom: Let's Google that.

Phil: No, let's Google it.

Tom: Live research.

Tom: Yooka Laylee, there's one that was, I think, probably in the previous generation of.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: So maybe if we exclude it to this generation, I think that's perhaps a fair statement.

Phil: Thank you.

Tom: So I'll rescind my previous criticism.

Phil: Thank you very much.

Phil: Since we last spoke, the Switch has been revealed.

Phil: Obviously, there was several leaks that indicated pretty much every detail that was in the, well, I would say every detail that was in the two-minute reveal trailer.

Phil: What are your impressions?

Phil: What do you think?

Phil: I mean, it seems to be half, most people are, or half people are underwhelmed because they already knew all the details.

Phil: Other people are taking a, well, let's wait and see what it can actually do in April when the next release is going to be.

Tom: I was impressed by the graphics of Mario Kart

Tom: Okay.

Tom: I think overall it sounds like an inferior console compared to the previous Switch, given that they seem to be removing the motion control capabilities, not that many games use them.

Phil: That's a good point.

Phil: I guess the whole thing is not that many games use them.

Phil: One of the things they reveal is that each Joy-Con has a optical mouse sensor on it, so that both left and right hands can be using a mouse.

Phil: You look at that and I can think of some things that that would be cool at.

Phil: But also, you go, how many companies are actually going to develop for that?

Tom: At least they're doing something different, but still, I feel like that would be, other than in menus, less likely to be utilized, whereas there were a few games that did have motion controls.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, with the mouse though, it does open it up.

Phil: Obviously, it breaks down some barriers for games like Diablo, Civ, are games that are better with mouse.

Phil: If you're using the analog.

Tom: It would be in touchpad form, I assume.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: You take the Joy-Con and you turn it on its side, and then basically, it's got the two buttons, which are your two trigger buttons that you'd be using as your left and right mouse control, and then you're sliding it around like a mouse.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So they're definitely like mice-like controllers.

Phil: Now, they might be too thin for most grown adult Westerners, but they are at least doing something, and like I said.

Tom: I hope first-person shooters will utilize them.

Phil: That's what I was thinking too, because Microsoft, because of their lawsuit with the antitrust department, or whatever it was, their antitrust suit, had to basically say, we're committing to releasing Call of Duty for Nintendo's consoles for the foreseeable future.

Phil: So, hey, if that had a mouse option, that's a plus.

Phil: The first thing I thought about when I saw it rumored was Mario Paint

Phil: And then on Reflection, others have brought up Mario Maker, the game that came out on Wii U.

Phil: So, yeah, I mean, you know, like you said, at least they're doing something different and new and not just releasing a Steam Deck.

Phil: And I think it'll be powerful enough to take, like, at least PlayStation type games.

Phil: Yeah, so it's too early to tell, but what I really didn't like, I know they were sort of cornered and had to release a trailer to sort of say, yeah, yeah, okay, yes, we're doing a Switch and it's called a Switch and it does look like all the pictures you've seen.

Phil: But then to say, the next time we'll talk to you is in four months.

Phil: I'm like, what?

Phil: I mean, seriously?

Phil: Four months?

Phil: They can't do a proper Nintendo Direct or something just to, just to, and who knows, who knows where they are in the manufacturing process?

Phil: Maybe it's just too early for them to, to really...

Tom: Maybe they had to release this earlier because of pretty much everything had leaked.

Tom: Because it definitely does come across as a very rushed reveal.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Phil: The Game Awards have happened since we last talked.

Phil: I'm not going to talk about great length about it, but I did want to bring up a couple of things.

Phil: And that is that there's a new Fumito Ueda game in the works called Project Robot.

Phil: And the characters, this is from the maker of ICO and all that sort of stuff.

Phil: The character that they had in the trailer looked a lot like ICO.

Phil: Lots of climbing and a giant robot.

Phil: And the studio is working with Epic Games that seems to be obviously publishing it.

Phil: It was just a very short cut scene, but I had to mention it because we haven't heard from Ueda for a long time.

Tom: I was about to say there might finally be a reason to buy a PSbut then I realized it would be a reason to buy a PSor

Phil: Yeah, in terms of how long it takes them to make a game.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: And the other thing too is it's working with Epic.

Phil: So I imagine that they'd want to put this on the Epic Store, which means it'd be available on PC because that's their, that's, you know, they're all about developing their storefront.

Phil: So if they have an exclusive for Media Ueda game.

Phil: But how many times has a Western publisher gotten hold of a legendary Japanese developer for an exclusive and it worked out well?

Phil: So probably Shadow of the Damned, when EA put that Mikami's game together.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But it doesn't usually work out in the long run.

Tom: I have more faith in Ueda, I think.

Phil: I have more faith in Epic as well, because they get more money than God.

Tom: And they're Chinese.

Phil: Well, yeah, some of it's Chinese.

Tom: The main financial backing is Chinese, isn't it?

Phil: No, no.

Phil: Tencent only owns a minority share in the company.

Tom: So that's enough to have poisoned everyone's view of it.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: It's the one drop rule.

Phil: Yeah, I guess so.

Tom: Applied financially.

Tom: But yeah, I think because Fumito Ueda's games are significantly different in terms of gameplay, like everything about his games are usually very different to whatever else is being done.

Tom: I think it would be harder to try and exercise more editorial control over it.

Tom: Yeah, so you would be more likely to end up with something that is not released, rather than a watered down version of what he would otherwise have done.

Phil: Yeah, it would be like trying to tell Picasso to use more watercolors, you know?

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: And can you soften some of these edges a little bit?

Phil: Yeah, because he has that legendary status.

Phil: So anyway, good for him.

Phil: There's lots of other games now like Outer Worlds which before had a make-believe trailer, Ninja Gaiden remakes and new games, Borderlands Onimusha, Sonic Racing is getting a new game.

Phil: So other than that, from this point, not a lot of interest, other than the fact that Naughty Dog is going to make a game that's not called Uncharted or The Last of Us.

Phil: It's an action adventure game, quote, set thousands of years in the future.

Phil: It follows the bounty hunter man's name, who is stranded on a remote planet searching for a crime syndicate.

Phil: From what I saw, the video has lots of Akira references and s nostalgia.

Phil: They were using brands in the trailer like Porsche and Sony, but it's set so far into the future.

Phil: So yeah, it had a retro future vibe, very interesting graphical style.

Phil: Like I said, it's going to be an action adventure game, so it's the same thing that they've always done.

Phil: The name of the game is Intergalactic, colon, the heretic prophet.

Tom: I'm wondering what's going on with game titles at the moment.

Phil: Well, you can't just call it Intergalactic because for search engines, that's not going to work.

Tom: But do you then want to call it the heretic prophet?

Phil: The heretic prophet?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: It sounds interesting.

Phil: A prophet who's also a heretic.

Tom: Intergalactic, the heretic prophet.

Phil: No, I don't like that.

Tom: Well, that's what it's called.

Phil: What was Uncharted called?

Phil: It was called Uncharted Drake's Fortune.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: And I remember reading in a gaming forum, people lambasting it because the only other video game that had came out with the word Drake in it before was a horrible dragon game that was absolutely horrible.

Tom: What about Drakengard?

Phil: Yeah, Drakengard.

Phil: I don't know about Drakengard.

Phil: What's that?

Tom: That's another game with Drake in the title.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So technically.

Phil: Anyway, thousands of words were wasted saying this game is going to flop because it's called Drake's Fortune.

Phil: What the hell is that?

Phil: It's a bad game about a dragon.

Phil: You know, and who cares at the end?

Phil: He's Nathan Drake.

Phil: It's the name of the character.

Phil: So I just thought that was humorous.

Phil: As soon as my gut instinct was to criticize the name of the game, I just remembered back to when everyone was criticizing Uncharted's game.

Tom: Well, I never criticized Uncharted.

Phil: Well, actually, I've got a direct quote from here, which I'll insert into the podcast.

Phil: No, we weren't recording it.

Phil: So other news, I've got to apologize to the Aussie game industry.

Phil: In the last episode, we talked about the IGEA Expo, where you saw a bunch of independent games.

Phil: And I said, yeah, that's great that they're doing that.

Phil: And there was some good games there and I played them as well.

Phil: And I said, but where are these people going to work?

Phil: And I should have known better because Edge Magazine, actually the one with Indiana Jones on the front cover, they ran like a seven-page feature on the Australian video game industry.

Phil: And I didn't realize that, you know, we all know about Untitled Goose Game and all this, and you know, Bioshock

Phil: I didn't realize that Void Bastards and unpacking was made by an Australian company.

Tom: I think I knew about Void Bastards.

Phil: Yeah, I didn't know unpacking, like you see unpacking everywhere.

Phil: So, so just yeah, again, you know, they're out there and basically the IGEA, which seems to be like the ESA for Australia.

Phil: They're there to promote Australian game development.

Phil: It doesn't hurt that they also have, you know, a campus program set up for TAFE colleges to take their curriculum and all the rest of it.

Phil: They said that % of Australian studios expect headcount to remain stable or grow in

Phil: So despite a challenging year for game development globally, Australia's full-time employment, you know, there's about people in game development with % of studios planning to hire next year.

Phil: So the survey also found that Victoria continues to be a popular hub for game development with % of game studio head offices in that state.

Phil: Now, they might have their head offices there because there's grants available.

Phil: You know, the head office might be a PO box.

Phil: That's a bit cynical perhaps.

Phil: Employee distribution illustrated that many studios have a presence in more than one state and tend to follow talent and incentives across the country.

Phil: % of the workers are located in Victoria, followed by Queensland, followed by New South Wales.

Phil: And it is because they have generous and globally competitive tax rebates, plus direct funding from federal and state governments.

Phil: So there you go.

Phil: I was wrong.

Phil: And I just felt that that correction needed to be made.

Tom: I don't know if fully employed people necessarily makes you wrong.

Phil: Yeah, but it's at least growing and not in decline.

Phil: And the point of the Edge article was that exactly that, that it's gone and it had really good interviews in there.

Phil: Basically, Australian game dev is digging its way back out of hell.

Phil: And there's positive signs.

Tom: I think in terms of the game being produced, the Australian games industry would be, without a question, better than it ever previously was.

Phil: That's true, yeah.

Tom: Which is a point worth mentioning as well.

Phil: Yeah, for sure.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Our last story, last time we talked about Shuei Yoshida, who was in charge of Worldwide Studios for Sony, leaving Sony after years.

Phil: And I said, he, it looks like he was pushed, he wasn't leaving of his own recognizance.

Phil: He made a comment this week that...

Tom: Directly in reply to you, I presume.

Phil: Well, possibly.

Phil: He said that if he was still in his original job, the job that Herman Hermansson still has, he would have pushed back on the live shows.

Tom: Friend of the Game Under Podcast, Herman Hermansson.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Herman Hermansson pushed back.

Tom: Old colleague of ours from the past life.

Phil: Well, if you look at his work on Killzone, anyway, Shuei says he would have pushed back on the live service.

Phil: Now that Concord's crashed into the ground and all the rest of it.

Phil: He said, for me, I was managing this budget.

Phil: I was responsible for allocating money to what games to make.

Phil: If the company was considering going that way, live service, it didn't make sense to stop making God of War or a single-player game.

Phil: However, what they did when I left and Herman took over the company, they gave him a lot more resources.

Phil: I don't think they told Herman to stop making single-player games.

Phil: They said, these games are great, keep doing that, and we'll give you additional resources to work on the live service games and give it a try.

Phil: I'm sure they knew it was risky.

Phil: However, the company, not knowing that risk, gave Herman the resources and a chance to try it.

Phil: Luckily, Helldiver is D great.

Phil: No one expected that.

Phil: So you can't plan a success in this industry.

Phil: That's the most fun part of the business.

Phil: I hope the strategy will work in the end.

Phil: Here's the killer quote.

Phil: If I was in Herman's position, probably I would have tried to resist that direction.

Phil: Maybe that's one of the reasons they removed me from first party.

Tom: So after your statements, he finally found the courage to come out and confirm your investigation.

Phil: I never miss a chance to pat myself on the back before making my bold predictions.

Phil: And I don't tell you about the ones that don't come true, of course.

Tom: Not that there are any.

Phil: So for many fans of Indiana Jones and Machine Games that used to be Starbreeze, the makers of Chronicles of Riddick, their dreams did in fact come true when Microsoft published and released on Games Pass.

Phil: And it sold a ridiculous amount of copies on Steam as well.

Phil: Indiana Jones and The Great Circle.

Tom: Yes, I have actually been playing this on Game Pass.

Tom: So for once we're covering, not even for once, I think for the second show in a row, thanks to Game Pass, we're covering probably the biggest release of the time with Stalker receiving first impressions.

Tom: Around when it was released.

Phil: Have you gotten much into Indiana Jones?

Tom: I am maybe around somewhere between a third to halfway through it, I think.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: So you're about to leave the Vatican, from what I can hear.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Cause everyone I talk, everyone I hear talking about this game is like, yeah, still in the Vatican.

Phil: Oh, still in the Vatican.

Phil: Still in the Vatican.

Tom: I'm dreading leaving the Vatican because I presume based on the opening of the game, that all the other settings in the game are not going to be as interesting and unique as the Vatican setting is.

Phil: Well, let's give them the benefit of the doubt, because I've heard that good things happen out of that game.

Phil: So this is available currently only on Windows and Xbox.

Phil: It'll be available for PlayStation shortly in the first half of

Tom: So I might have finished it by then, maybe.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And like I said, it'll be perfect timing.

Tom: We can do the final impressions when it starts getting some hype again for the Sony release or for the Switch release.

Tom: So it's been confirmed for Switch

Phil: No, no, nothing's been confirmed for Switch

Tom: Except for Mario Kart

Phil: All right.

Phil: So what's what's the best part of it so far?

Tom: I think the best part of it is exploring the Vatican.

Tom: It's a funny setting.

Tom: Fits well in the schlocky, pulpy atmosphere that Indiana Jones has and should have.

Tom: It's a great historical setting with the mixture of black shirts and the Catholic priests wandering around.

Tom: It's visually striking.

Tom: It's just an enjoyable and amusing world to explore.

Phil: So I think this is a prequel to one of the movies, and it's obviously set in World War II.

Tom: In the lead up to World War II?

Phil: Ah, okay.

Phil: So they haven't taken over the Vatican.

Phil: They're just...

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: They would have been the welcome guests.

Tom: They're in the process of it.

Tom: And of course, the Pope is sick apparently and not involved in it.

Tom: So it's due to a rogue priest or bishop who is a Mussolini fanboy.

Tom: So not sure of the historical accuracy of that, but it will at least not cause any controversy by portraying it in that manner.

Phil: No, that is fantastic.

Phil: I love that.

Phil: I don't respect the fact that they're trying to make it safe, but I love the thought that went into that, that they're sidestepping the whole issue.

Phil: Oh, the Pope's not the bad guy.

Phil: It's just the evil sick guy over here.

Tom: He's got a cold.

Phil: Yeah, Pope's got a cold, man.

Phil: Come on.

Phil: You can't be in charge of everything all the time.

Phil: That's why we've left these black shirts in here.

Tom: So again, about now the game, the setting, you love it visually and everything, like how we know about the Vatican setting, the opening which was copying the opening of one of the films I felt was totally uninteresting and bland, a bland reimagining of it.

Phil: Yeah, but you can't open it with, you've got to open it with a bang.

Phil: You've got to give people something they're familiar with, and I presume that that had some tutorial type qualities in it, the torture of course, so yeah, I'll grant them that.

Phil: You start with a bang, and you get them interested, give them what they want, and then now you're dropping them into The Vatican, which is going to be a different pace, obviously.

Tom: Yep, and before we move on from the fascist element in the game, we've always got to, I think, in big games, go to Steam reviews as we did with Stalker and I doubt I can find the actual review again, but there was a review complaining that Indiana Jones was calling all the people he was beating up fascists.

Tom: It was too woke and politically correct and caught in the modern workers mind virus, where Indiana Jones was calling Mussolini's black shirts fascists.

Phil: I think that is a hilarious comment.

Phil: Of course it is, right?

Tom: It's beautiful.

Tom: I loved it.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: It's my member, my phrase, chronocentrism, which is seeing history through the lens of today.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It doesn't hurt that Mussolini is the one that actually came up with the fascist movement, giving it its name.

Tom: Why is it called the Roman salute?

Tom: I think there's a debate over whether something qualifies as a Roman or a Hitler salute, but a Roman salute is merely a fascist salute.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And you know, I like...

Tom: It's called Roman for a reason.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And yeah, Roman, if you want to, but like I like the, I like the AVE, you know, like when you're walking around and say AVE, citizen, you know, you just raise your hand up, you know.

Phil: I'm not talking about the full extension.

Phil: I mean, that's obviously something different.

Phil: You know, I like the showing your palm.

Phil: And I think that came from...

Tom: Standard greeting in Australia, AVE.

Tom: AVE, mate.

Phil: AVE, mate.

Tom: How's it going?

Phil: It's a good AVE today, isn't it?

Phil: I reckon it's going to be pretty hot, this AVE.

Phil: Yeah, that's it.

Phil: We should probably talk like that all the time.

Phil: That's what people are here for.

Phil: We are after all.

Tom: AVE to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: I'm Yoast, Tom Towers, also known as Tazza.

Phil: Yeah, Tazza.

Tom: I'm joined by...

Phil: Foggy.

Tom: Are you Tazza or Gazza?

Phil: Foggy.

Tom: What are you?

Phil: Phil Fogg.

Tom: You're bluey, I think, actually.

Phil: You would call me Foggy.

Tom: Foggy, yeah, that works.

Tom: Foggy.

Tom: How's it going, Cunt?

Phil: Can't tell you right now.

Tom: Playing any good games lately, mate?

Phil: Oh, yeah, played that Pentament.

Phil: She's all right, aye.

Tom: She goes all right, does she?

Phil: Oh, yeah, a bit short, though.

Phil: Bit short, you know, but you know.

Phil: And my accent's gone out the window now.

Tom: I think you just moved to Adelaide at the end.

Phil: And Adelaide is a fine city, we've got to say.

Phil: I remember we once lost a listener because we called Adelaide a pissant city or something like that.

Tom: Pissant town.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, because someone, some sports commentator had said it.

Phil: We were just making fun of what the guy had said.

Tom: The coach of Adelaide United had said it.

Phil: And we got a, we got an email from someone saying, Oh, little listen to your podcast again.

Phil: Adelaide is a fine city.

Phil: Okay, so back to Indiana Jones and the great city of churches.

Tom: So that may be offended by our comments on the Catholic Church as well.

Phil: Oh, we're not coming on the Catholic Church.

Phil: The Pope is sick.

Phil: This is all the work of some sick priest.

Phil: So, I mean, okay, so what's the actual gameplay so far?

Tom: Well, the gameplay is a mixture of platforming, puzzle-solving and first-person, hand-to-hand combat, although you do also have Indiana Jones' revolver, but the ammo for it is limited.

Tom: And there is, so far, the hardest combat in the game is underground boxing matches.

Tom: And I think they just missed a massive opportunity because as far as I can tell, it is not possible to just shoot the people in the boxing matches, which is, I think, completely missing the humor of one of the greatest scenes in Indiana Jones.

Phil: They've got to use it at some point in the game, though.

Phil: I'd say, sit a little in there.

Phil: They'll probably use it at some point, like when you get out of the Vatican, maybe.

Tom: I want to be able to use it there in a setting where it doesn't make sense to use it.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: I mean, this industry is all about power fantasies, so why not?

Tom: I mean, it's surely a better reference to a great scene in Indiana Jones than just copying the opening to one of the films.

Phil: Yeah, fair enough, fair enough.

Phil: But again, I think opening with a bang is fine.

Phil: You're in the Vatican now, so there's puzzle solving.

Phil: So it's more like Tomb Raider than, say.

Tom: I think to its credit, it's not like either Tomb Raider or Uncharted.

Tom: In what way?

Tom: Well, for one thing, due to the combat being of the other element, it's also stealth.

Tom: I forgot to add both stealth in terms of sneaking past enemies and also finding and using disguises so that you can just wander around without being interfered with in the Vatican City, which I think is an important skill to have.

Tom: But there are people who can break through your disguise in the areas.

Tom: There are officers so far and they will see through your disguises, so you've got to use your stealth techniques against them so you can't just wander around completely unmolested.

Tom: But I think that's one element that totally changes things.

Phil: That's very unusual.

Phil: So you're telling me you're in a Catholic church and you can walk around completely unmolested?

Tom: Correct.

Tom: As long as you're wearing a disguise.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: As an adult?

Tom: Put on a fake mustache, it'll probably massively reduce the attention you're receiving.

Phil: Ward them away.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: I understand that you can use the whip.

Phil: Can you use the whip in the Vatican?

Tom: Yes, you can.

Tom: That's another part of the stealth element, because even if you're wearing a disguise, if you're doing something like using your whip to repel upper wall while you're disguised as a priest, even the standard enemies will see through that and realize that something suspicious is going on here and attack you.

Phil: Good.

Phil: Is it weird?

Phil: I can't remember, other than Castlevania, using a whip in a game.

Tom: Well, it's mainly used for climbing, so it's just like a repelling device.

Phil: Got you.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: But you can also use it in combat, but it's like a special move you can use in combat, essentially, to stun an enemy.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Just to buy a little bit more time.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: But the ability to just go through these areas undetected makes it more like an open world exploration game, or rather as that element to it, which is not there in either Uncharted or Tomb Raider.

Tom: Additionally, the climbing and platforming elements, I would say, are more rudimentary than both Uncharted and Tomb Raider.

Tom: But I think the rudimentary nature of it at least makes it feel different to them.

Tom: Whereas if they were doing more elaborate climbing sequences, it would feel less of its own game, for sure.

Tom: The hand-to-hand combat in a first-person perspective, obviously, completely sets it apart to both of those games as well.

Tom: It's once again very simplistic, so it doesn't get into the territory of first-person combat games like Xeno Clash, for example, despite feeling somewhat similar to it.

Tom: I think they managed to make it its own unique modern adventure game, which makes it enjoyable.

Tom: The fact that everything within that is mechanically really simplistic, including the puzzles, they're usually pretty straightforward to solve, and more so a matter of just performing all the steps than trying to actually figure something out.

Tom: I think makes it maybe a little less interesting over the course of the game.

Tom: I'm certainly finding it somewhat of a chore to continue with it, but the setting is enough that I want to continue with it.

Phil: Well, I was going to say, just in summary, it is set in as you attempt to thwart various groups who are trying to harness the power connected to the great circle, which refers to mysterious sites around the world that form a perfect circle when put together on a map.

Phil: The game spans numerous real world locales, and I don't think this is a spoiler because everyone knows.

Tom: I think we have a term for this, right?

Tom: It's a common stationary tool, right?

Phil: Like a protractor?

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: The game spans numerous.

Tom: I think with a protractor, you could do exactly the same thing.

Phil: Indiana Jones and the normal protractor.

Phil: I think that would be a good name.

Phil: But people would think it's a tractor towing game or something like that.

Phil: Because of protractor league.

Tom: The protractor, yeah.

Phil: The protractor league, yes.

Phil: The PTL.

Phil: The game spans numerous real world locales.

Phil: And this isn't a spoiler because obviously the game can't take place in the Vatican the whole time, but such as the Vatican, Thailand, Egypt, and Shanghai.

Phil: I think those other places sound a lot more exotic and fun to explore than the Vatican.

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: Yeah, well.

Tom: I think they're more generic settings.

Tom: How many games are set in the Vatican?

Phil: How many games are set in Thailand?

Tom: That one sounds interesting.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Egypt.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Everything.

Phil: Shanghai.

Phil: I can't remember a game set in Shanghai.

Tom: That's because of the greatest status of China today.

Tom: You need to replace Shanghai with China.

Tom: And you'll probably find a lot of game, a few games anyway set in China.

Tom: But now it's Shanghai.

Phil: It'll be interesting to see if they do something political with that as well.

Phil: It's a bigger city in China today.

Phil: It'll be interesting.

Phil: It's an interesting thing to do too, because you've obviously got to avoid all the politically correct portrayals of Chinese people and all the rest of it as well.

Phil: I am going to be greatly...

Tom: There'll be no Winnie the Pooh references.

Phil: No Winnie the Pooh references, that's for sure.

Phil: I'm going to be really interested to...

Phil: I hope you do persevere.

Phil: If you're all a third of the way through, obviously something is gripping you.

Tom: The Vatican.

Tom: I mean, there are a lot of things that grip people in the Vatican, aren't they?

Phil: That's true, yeah.

Tom: If you've forgotten your mustache.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: Audio design.

Tom: This is where we start getting into one of the things that puts me off the game.

Tom: Audio design in terms of sound effects and music, all of that sort of thing is fine.

Tom: There's one massive problem with the game to me anyway, which isn't just an audio issue, but I think a direction of the game full stop issue.

Tom: Troy Baker, I think, has received a lot of plaudits for successfully imitating Harrison Ford's voice, right?

Phil: Including on his podcast.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: Unfortunately, he does not imitate an ounce of Harrison Ford's irony or charisma.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: To me, this is an abysmal performance and it's not entirely his fault.

Tom: This is the direction the game has chosen to take of doing absolutely nothing with the character.

Tom: Sorry, that the writers have chosen to take of doing absolutely nothing with the character whatsoever.

Tom: They've apparently decided Harrison Ford is the final word on Indiana Jones.

Tom: And even though we don't have Harrison Ford, we're for some reason going to tell some dude to just imitate his voice.

Phil: Well, they do have his likeness.

Phil: They obviously paid to use his likeness.

Phil: So you're not going to pay Indiana Jones.

Tom: I think an AI imitation of Indiana Jones would have been equally as interesting.

Tom: That's how bad it is.

Tom: I think it would have been more interesting because you would have had all the weird shit where the AI fucks up.

Phil: I think from an artistic perspective, you're right.

Phil: From a commercial perspective, you're wrong.

Phil: Commercially, they needed Harrison Ford's likeness.

Phil: So once you've gone that step, you need his voice.

Phil: Then obviously, they have to take a backseat to Steven Spielberg and Harrison Ford approving this whole thing.

Tom: Surely, there's a way to do it with adding an element.

Tom: This is what I'm saying though, if you're copying a character, because that's what essentially they're doing or a portrayal of a character and you're doing a pastiche of it, then you've got to copy the things that make that good.

Tom: The things that make Indiana Jones films great, or at least one of them great.

Phil: Sense of irony and what was the other one?

Tom: It's irony, it's charisma, it's a batshit take on all the stuff that was being pastiche.

Tom: Like the shooting scene that I referenced earlier, that takes someone who's going to do that in a, act that out in a unique way, to work.

Tom: Harrison Ford is like Arnold Schwarzenegger, right?

Tom: Where you are getting someone who is not acting in a normal sort of manner.

Tom: He's obviously a more normal sort of actor than Arnold Schwarzenegger, but there is that element to his performances.

Phil: So with his performances, I'd say that in Indiana Jones, of course, they were copying the s, you know, serials.

Phil: So it was more of a exaggerated, almost vaudeville-like portrayal of his hero.

Phil: And he just brought his normal Harrison Ford, you know, bag of tools over from Star Wars.

Phil: But yeah, there's something obviously very unique about Harrison Ford and him and I don't know that I can fault anyone for not being able to impersonate Charisma.

Tom: I'm just saying the writers and the actor should be focusing on trying to imitate the things that made that character and performance great rather than trying to make the voice sound like him.

Phil: Right.

Phil: And I think-

Tom: Or to at least try and do both at once.

Tom: I see a lot of effort put into imitating the voice and imitating lines of dialogue.

Tom: I do not see much effort put into trying to copy the things that actually made it great, which is bizarre because in Wolfenstein, there is a similar sort of humor at work as there was in Indiana Jones.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: And as there is in Harrison Ford performances.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: If you look at Wolfenstein, it's right there.

Phil: It does match that energy.

Phil: I think this-

Phil: I'm not going to fault the voice actor for it.

Phil: I'm going to fault the audio director.

Tom: And the writers as well.

Phil: And the writers as well.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: But I'm not going to give an imperson-

Phil: I'm not going to give a voice actor a hard time for doing a spot on impersonation of a voice because he's got to work with the material he's got.

Tom: I give him great credit for his imitation of the voice actually.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So you and Jeff Gershman are not of the same view in that perspective.

Tom: But I think it's a terrible direction for The Game.

Tom: I criticize him for not imitating the parts of Harrison Ford's performance that made it great, because that is on the actor as well.

Tom: Even if the director is saying, copy Harrison Ford, do nothing else.

Tom: That should logically include copying the parts of Harrison Ford's performance that made it good, as opposed to merely copying the voice.

Phil: I groove your perspective, but I'm going to have to hold judgment until I can actually play the game myself, and then I'll come back and let you know what I think.

Tom: For the moment, you're still on the fence, which you should be until you actually play.

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: I groove your perspective, and then I'll tell you whether or not I groove it.

Phil: Even though this is an action adventure game, it's not in third person.

Phil: Everyone knows these facts already.

Phil: It is in first person.

Phil: How effective was that?

Phil: Is it jarring?

Phil: Is it superior?

Tom: I think it works fine.

Tom: I think in this day and age, enough games have made platforming and hand-to-hand combat in first person work, that if you don't succeed in it, you really should be doing better.

Tom: I don't think that those are difficult things to do in this day and age.

Phil: Well, what else is notable about the game you'd like to bring to us?

Tom: I think that's probably at this stage, all the things that stand out to me.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, thank you very much for that.

Phil: It's a game that I know a lot of people have enjoyed and considered for their game of the year for

Phil: Another game that is on Game Pass that I've been playing.

Phil: Now, I haven't been playing it on Game Pass.

Phil: I've been playing it on my Steam Deck.

Phil: It's a game I wanted to play for a long time, and that is Pentament.

Phil: Now, Pentament, I couldn't believe this, because I thought it was a fairly recent game.

Phil: It was released in

Phil: It's from Obsidian, which is famous for, I know Fallout Las Vegas, for example.

Phil: A ton of other games.

Phil: They are known themselves as a good working studio, and they were under Bethesda.

Phil: Now, I think actually, they've never been under Bethesda.

Phil: They were bought outright by Microsoft separately.

Phil: And when they came up with this game, they basically were on the edges of it.

Phil: I know that they were super sick of what they had been working on.

Phil: And one of the game directors said, look, I basically need to work on something other than our main thing, which I think is Shadows of Eternia.

Phil: I need to do something else.

Phil: And if we're about to be brought by Microsoft, they're going to need small games regularly to be released on Game Pass, stuff that wouldn't ordinarily get the green light by a publisher.

Phil: And I've got this idea for a game basically set in th century Germany.

Phil: It's a D game, D and it's going to have a woodcut type art, and it's going to be set in a Catholic Monastery, and it's going to be a murder mystery.

Phil: And basically, the second Microsoft brought him, he got the green light.

Phil: And so this was made by a very small team of about people, and it is a phenomenal game.

Phil: I guess you could call it a role-playing game.

Phil: You play the part of an artist who is doing the script and the pictures for biblical works.

Tom: I think the art style is surely more in the light of that than a woodcut.

Phil: Oh, yeah, yeah, I guess you're right.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, you're right.

Phil: And so more iconography, would that be a good word to use?

Tom: I would just say it's like medieval painting and tapestries.

Phil: Yep, exactly, but it's a bit done with a pen.

Tom: So you're in a modern cartoon style.

Phil: So you yourself, you're the only person who's working at the monastery.

Phil: I don't think it's actually a monastery.

Phil: It's a church or cathedral in Germany.

Phil: And you're the only non, you're the only, you know, non-priest, non who's working there because you're an artist and you're doing this artwork.

Phil: And they're famous for, basically, this is going out because Gutenberg has invented the printing press and people are starting to use modern printing.

Phil: They don't need people who who handwrite these scripts anymore.

Phil: So literacy is becoming an issue and you're a dying breed, but there's still a very rich class of people who desire this type of artwork to be hand produced.

Phil: So that's basically what this place is known for.

Phil: And you spend your work hours at the church and you spend your down hours in the village.

Phil: And it is a really rich narrative game where you're given a choice of dialogue options basically.

Phil: It's a branching path narrative game.

Phil: I'm not really explaining this well.

Phil: And all of a sudden, there's a murder that's committed.

Phil: And because you've got a background in, well, in law, you decide that you're going to start investigating this murder.

Phil: Now, you do get to pick, it is an RPG.

Phil: So like in my particular instance, I picked that I had studied some law.

Phil: You get to pick where you studied law.

Phil: So I happen to be in Italy.

Phil: And there's other things in your history that you can pick when you're in that character creation stage which will help you in your dialogue later on.

Phil: So if, for example, you had selected that you, instead of dabbling in law, dabbled in Latin, that's going to get you more clues later on in the game.

Phil: So you might come across something that's in Latin.

Phil: You're like, I have no idea what this says.

Phil: I'm going to have to find someone who knows how to speak Latin.

Phil: Or in my case, because I knew the law, that helped me going through evidence and making legal points about various things.

Tom: What are the RPG mechanics other than the character creation?

Tom: Do your skills grow over time?

Phil: Your skills don't grow over time.

Phil: It really is just that you're playing the role of a character, and you're deciding that character's destiny through the dialogue choices that you make and the relationships that you form.

Phil: So the game, this is kind of a gameplay spoiler, but the game is split into three acts.

Phil: And so the act that you're playing against, you're playing against, saying you're playing against a timer is too mechanical.

Phil: Basically, you've got a certain amount of days in order to investigate.

Phil: So in this first instance, they say, okay, well, old mate is going to be down here on Thursday.

Phil: Today is Monday.

Phil: So whatever you can do in the next four days, you figure it out.

Phil: And so you have to make choices because all the time it comes up with, you know, these are made up, obviously.

Phil: Tomo says you should go over to the mill and talk to them.

Phil: That's going to take a long time.

Phil: Talk to the people at the mill.

Phil: They know something about this, but it's going to take some time.

Phil: Or, you can go and talk to the widow in the village.

Phil: And, you know, so you go, okay, well, I don't want to waste half a day going over the mill, so go talk to this widow.

Phil: And that's your choice.

Phil: And that will reveal, you know, different parts of the story and different parts of the evidence to you, so that when you get to the trial, you know, you've got to basically go, you made the choices as to what evidence you would surface, and that's going to change the outcome of your success or failure in that trial.

Phil: Now, there's no fail state or success state, and you don't really even know, because like I said, this is a branching path narrative.

Phil: So the way I play it, the way you play it, we get to that trial, you know, there's going to be an outcome, but we're going to point to different people, and then they basically pick that up and then go into the second act with it.

Phil: And the second act takes place ten years later, because I don't want to do any spoilers here, but essentially one of the rich things about this game, well, first of all, that's really rich, because you're developing relationships, you're talking to these people, and from an artistic perspective, as you talk to them, there's no voice acting in the game, their little speech bubbles are getting, they're drawing in the words, right?

Phil: They're drawing in the words as they speak.

Phil: You can adjust the speed of that, of course, but it's in all these old fonts, and depending on the person's literacy and their background, like if they're from Germany, it'll be in a very German script.

Phil: If they're a laborer, it'll be in a different script.

Phil: If there's someone who's come over from France, it'll be different, and it's a fantastic touch.

Phil: Every time you mention the Lord or Jesus, they'll write all of the words in the speech bubble, and then go back and write the Lord or Jesus in red at the end, because that's how the Bible does it.

Phil: Every time the God or Jesus speaks in the Bible, it's printed in red.

Tom: He's a God of blood, after all.

Phil: Yeah, well, the sacrifice of Christ, the blood, all that stuff.

Phil: So it is a very detailed game.

Phil: It's a very enjoyable game.

Phil: So you get into the second act and this is the last story spoiler I'll reveal.

Phil: It's about years later.

Phil: And you've gone, you've left the place for reasons I won't disclose.

Phil: And you happen to be coming back.

Phil: And a lot of the stuff that you did when you were in town last time has consequences this time around, except that six year old you talk to is now

Phil: That year old you talk to is now

Phil: That year old you talk to is now

Phil: And they do that, I don't remember the phrasing of it, but they'll do that, Tom will remember this.

Phil: Every time you make a choice or a decision, it'll tell you, hey, it's going to come back to you one way or the other, either good or bad.

Phil: And yeah, so the funny thing was, as an indie game, I was like, it's not an indie game, it's a small team game.

Phil: As a small team game, I got to the end of the first act.

Phil: I was like, okay, I enjoyed that.

Phil: Well, they wrapped that up quick.

Phil: Okay, I guess this is the end of the game.

Phil: And then the second act comes and then the third act comes.

Phil: And you're like, okay, this is, and it wasn't in a bad way.

Phil: It was usually when I think a game is about to end and it doesn't, it's a very negative thing.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Usually, I'm like hours into a game.

Phil: And then they're like, surprise, another or hours to go.

Phil: And you're like, yeah, okay, I was ready for this to end.

Phil: But in this game, the relationships that you develop, the character development, the whodunit like plot, which is underutilized, I think in video games, the art of it, the humor of it is just top notch.

Phil: And like if I was in game publishing or developing, I'd write the names of those people down.

Phil: I'd be like, anytime these people need a job, I'd hire them, because these people are all acting, they're all performing at the very top of their craft.

Phil: Yeah, so I call it a flawless game, which I don't think I've done so before.

Phil: It was unique, which is saying something, and it was flawless.

Phil: And to the point where it's a D game with this iconic, you know, iconography, characters and stuff like that.

Phil: But there was actually a point in the game where I was playing it, and I got a chill down my spine.

Phil: Like something happened, I was like, oh, shh, you know, well.

Phil: That doesn't happen often in the game, and it wasn't a jump scare, it was a, holy Christ, what the, you know, like.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: What was that?

Phil: Oh my God, what's happening?

Phil: So yeah, any questions about it at all?

Tom: I think you say you thought Chapter was the ending.

Tom: Does the initial mystery expand into some sort of large conspiracy?

Tom: How exactly without spoilers, do they expand on that?

Phil: I think that what you've said is enough.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: So, it's worthy to say that you're not just solving a single murder, that there is in fact a grand conspiracy that underlies the entirety of this game, and that's drawn out over three acts.

Phil: And I think that there's so much good about this game, but I think the real value of it is when you see those characters through the three different acts, age and die, and you remember your relationship with them when you were a young man and now you see these people when they're close to death, but you understand who they were, and all that stuff really comes home.

Phil: You understand these characters, not like you would have sully in Uncharted sort of thing, but you're like, yeah, I knew you when you were young, I knew you were in middle age, and now, okay, you're later.

Phil: It just has a richness of it, and the way that it's delivered, as I said, is flawless.

Phil: It's a game that I can't imagine that most people who, the billions of people out there who buy video games would have any interest in based on, they'd be put off by the aesthetic alone.

Phil: And if you don't like reading, you are not going to like this game.

Phil: So if you're put off by the aesthetic, and I'm quoting the developer of the game, the director, if you don't like how it looks and you don't like reading, you're not going to like this game, because that's a lot of the game.

Phil: They mix it up with some gameplay elements.

Phil: There's some minor platforming, some puzzle solving that's enjoyable.

Phil: There's an element of the game where every time you eat, you're sitting down with people and talking with them and selecting the food you're going to eat, which is a nice way of doing it.

Phil: But yeah, no, it's a perfect game.

Phil: It is available on Game Pass for free if you want to give it a go.

Phil: And that's pretty much all I've got to say about it.

Tom: The only other thing I would ask is, so all the gameplay unfolds in dialogue choices and related dialogue choices, does it?

Phil: Other than the mini games that they added in there.

Phil: I watched the documentary, Danny O'Dwyer documentary on the game, which I wouldn't watch until you've played the game.

Phil: And they basically said, look, we can't, we've got to mix up the action here somehow.

Phil: This just can't be all reading and walking.

Phil: Yeah, we're very well researched as well in terms of the era and the place and the politics and everything that was going on in the world at that time.

Tom: It sounds like something I should definitely play.

Phil: Definitely, if not just for the unique nature of it.

Tom: Are you going to give it a score?

Phil: Oh, it's a

Phil: Absolutely a

Tom: Is this the first you've given on Game Under Podcast?

Phil: I'd be embarrassed to know what games I've given a to in the past.

Phil: This one is, like I said, if I was in game development, anyone who worked on this game to me would be immediately hired.

Phil: I'm looking at our score archive, which is not complete by any measure.

Phil: I see a lot of out of s.

Phil: out of for Doom

Phil: out of for The Last of Us.

Phil: Holy crap.

Tom: So there's one.

Phil: Zero out of for Killzone Shadowfall.

Tom: So we've got a flawless game and a totally flawed game there, I presume.

Phil: You gave a game called The Plan a out of

Tom: Yep.

Tom: Is that the Fly Game?

Phil: No, I don't think so.

Phil: That Fly Game is the one...

Tom: The Plan is the Fly Game, but I think there might be another game called The Plan.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, no.

Phil: So far as I can see, that's the only other I've given was for The Last of Us, which was quite some time ago.

Phil: And yeah, I thought that was a good game at the time.

Phil: Still is.

Phil: I'll give it that.

Phil: I can't see any other s from you.

Tom: I'm surprised there's even one.

Phil: Oh, hello.

Phil: Spec Ops The Line.

Tom: I don't think I gave that a

Phil: No, I gave it a

Tom: I think I gave it a out of

Phil: So there you go.

Phil: This game enters the pantheon with Spec Ops The Line, which I think is still worth a in The Last of Us, which I think at the time, for what it was doing at the time, was definitely worth a

Phil: Absolutely.

Tom: There is also The Plan, which is a French game apparently, about stealing Rembrandt paintings.

Tom: Are you familiar with that?

Phil: No, no.

Phil: That's not the game that you are.

Tom: So we can't say that's the plan, I gave a out of

Phil: No, no.

Phil: So the only game you've given a perfect score to, you can't even remember.

Tom: I remember the game.

Tom: I just don't remember giving it a out of

Tom: I think I may have given it a out of because you hated it so much.

Phil: You think it was one of those.

Phil: I don't usually put those in the score archive.

Tom: Because I think you might have given it a out of

Phil: Revenge scores, I don't usually put in the archive.

Tom: I think you might have.

Tom: We'll have to go back to that episode where we covered it and listen.

Phil: Indeed, that was episode

Phil: And it is about the fly.

Phil: This week we had a plan.

Phil: Well, actually, we had the plan.

Phil: The recently greenlit game on Steam that is free, megabytes and takes about minutes to beat.

Phil: In the spectrum of indie games where gone home is a and guacamole is a I put it in the middle of the spectrum almost.

Phil: In any case, it would be worth your while to give it a play before hearing our impressions of it.

Phil: Sincere apologies for getting to mention the PlayStation game, Car, Mr.

Phil: Mosquito.

Phil: We also talked about Red Steel and Alcatraz, a new game from a German adventure game publisher, Daedalic Games.

Tom: I believe I wrote a review for that.

Tom: I do believe my best review.

Phil: The caption of the fly that couldn't get through the, I remember this game now.

Phil: The caption of the image on this is a fly against a screen.

Tom: Yep, a fly wire screen.

Phil: My caption underneath it was, it's a metaphor man.

Phil: Before we get into e-mail, I just want to tell you there's been a few steam sales recently, and I just want to go over my haul because it's a good way to talk about games that we're interested in our perspective on the value and whether or not you are aware of them or even played them.

Phil: The first game that I got was a $purchase of a game from the early s called Flat Out.

Phil: It's a demolition derby game.

Phil: I had played the demo on Dreamcast.

Phil: Have you heard of it?

Tom: Yeah, I think I've played it or at least a demo of it.

Phil: Yeah, well, yeah, I played the demo again, and I found it memorable enough that it turned up in my list of games I've been playing.

Phil: So, and yeah, for $I did play the game, and I was amazed by the visual remastering of it.

Phil: Whatever it had done, even if they've done nothing, just playing it on a modern video card, it looks absolutely fantastic.

Tom: I think it's just a PC port.

Tom: I don't think it's a remaster.

Phil: Yeah, it's just a PC port.

Phil: They haven't spent any money on this game, making it look better or worse or anything.

Phil: It's just that I was just impressed at how it looks on a modern PC.

Tom: Do you have any interest in FlatOut which I think is also about $at the moment?

Phil: I didn't know there was a FlatOut but now I have interest in it, so let me write that one down.

Tom: Not only is there a FlatOut there's also a FlatOut called Ultimate Carnage.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Look, the game's got increasingly sensationalist, and I think they got a bad rap because they have crazy taxi-type mini games in them, where you propel the driver of the car out of the front windscreen into a target, because the part of the original.

Tom: In fact, correction, sorry, FlatOut Ultimate Carnage is apparently an enhanced port of FlatOut

Tom: I think that means it's a remake.

Phil: Yeah, they cashed this game in for all it was worth, and it was basically built on a decent demolition derby game.

Phil: You don't get a lot of them.

Phil: Plus the, at the time, controversial ragdoll physics of having someone go flying through a car windscreen.

Phil: The next one I got was Telling Lies, which I haven't played, but it came in a bundle with Her Story.

Phil: I think it's by Sam Barlow as well for $.

Phil: So it's another full motion video game where you have to figure out who's lying and who's not.

Phil: Haven't played that one because it's not compatible with the Steam Deck.

Phil: Spiritfarer, I picked up, which I'm actually playing now and quite enjoying.

Phil: $$.

Phil: It is a very unique game.

Phil: It's like Animal Crossing meets Harvest Moon meets Wind Waker.

Phil: With a pretty deep, I wouldn't say narrative, but a very deep theme.

Phil: You're basically a young person who's picking up souls that are about to depart the world and making sure they're comfortable before they leave the world.

Phil: Have you seen that?

Phil: Any interest in it?

Tom: I think I've heard of it, but I have not played it.

Tom: It certainly looks interesting.

Tom: What are you enjoying about it the most?

Phil: The gameplay hook.

Phil: It has a really good gameplay loop rather.

Phil: Where there's always something to do and you're always getting, not rewarded for what you're doing, but everything that you do gives you progress.

Phil: So it's one of those kinds of games where the more you put into it, the more you get out of it without feeling like a job simulator.

Phil: Picked up Untitled Goose.

Tom: Thatchers, sorry, just to interrupt you there, not feeling like a job simulator, we'll now have lost all interest in it.

Tom: This is the podcast for people who love job simulators.

Phil: Untitled Goose Game, bucks.

Phil: As from what I've played of it so far, it's unique and fun, a little too twee for my liking.

Tom: There's currently an Untitled Goose Game exhibition at ACMI here in Melbourne.

Phil: It's wearing a pooh hair.

Phil: It's sort of like, okay guys, do you really want to run this into the ground?

Phil: Just go make another game.

Tom: I don't think that's the developer's fault.

Tom: That's whoever curates the NGV's fault.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: But if you did enjoy Untitled Goose Game, I would recommend the exhibition.

Phil: Well, of course.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I'm enjoying it now to a point, but again, it's a little too twee for me.

Phil: But I'll finish it.

Phil: That's for sure.

Phil: Pillars of Eternity from the aforementioned Obsidian.

Phil: It's the sort of Baldur's Gate top-down D isometric RPG game that's critically acclaimed.

Phil: I had the first one, haven't played it.

Phil: It's going to take forever to beat.

Phil: But I figured it might be something I can enjoy on a Steam Deck.

Phil: Got that for bucks.

Tom: Do you think there's any chance of you finishing it?

Phil: I don't think there's any chance of me starting it.

Phil: I'd like to go back and play Pillars of Eternity, because it's just a good, very basic grind RPG, looter type game, a la Diablo.

Phil: I love those games, but I've got to be in the right frame of mind for them.

Phil: That's why I thought if I can play them on the Steam Deck, that's the perfect frame of mind.

Phil: It's like something I can play a little bit of, stop, play it in bed, that sort of thing.

Phil: I don't know that I've given Steam Deck hardware impressions on this podcast yet.

Phil: We'll have to save that for the next show.

Tom: I don't think you have because you write a review.

Phil: I did write a review.

Phil: So we'll do that next show.

Phil: Frog Detective Game.

Phil: I'd heard of it and I'd heard that it was unique, so I bought it and I tried it.

Phil: It's got prep of the rapper style artwork, and you're a frog who's trying to solve a mystery.

Phil: And for the small amount that I played of it, I enjoyed it so far.

Phil: Four bucks.

Tom: Now, where have you heard of this game?

Phil: Just on various podcasts.

Tom: Give me an example of one podcast.

Phil: The Next Lander Podcast, the Player One Podcast, Jeff Guzman Podcast.

Tom: Not The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I don't think we've talked about it, have we?

Tom: We have talked about it in episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: And I did love your impressions.

Phil: Frog Detectives, episode what?

Tom:

Phil: And you gave final impressions of one and two, and I haven't even heard about the sequel yet.

Phil: Yeah, you gave final impressions.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But granted, you only talked about it for six minutes.

Tom: I think I may have been writing a review for a website at that time.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: So the impressions were short.

Phil: Do you remember your impressions of it?

Tom: I think I liked it.

Phil: Yeah, I'm digging it.

Phil: I didn't realize it was that old.

Phil: Next game I picked up was Pentament for bucks, which I think was half off.

Phil: If you want to pay for it, you can of course get it for free, which means I paid bucks too much for it.

Phil: NASCAR Heat because I'm a sucker for driving games, paid $for it.

Phil: And then about two days later, they announced that they're pulling all NASCAR games off Steam, or actually they announced they're pulling all NASCAR games off the digital platforms.

Phil: So that was a fortuitous one.

Phil: A game I'll talk about in the next podcast is X or X.

Phil: This was a crowd-funded game that takes on an s pastiche and has about four or five s arcade games that it emulates with a narrative behind it.

Tom: Could you even play that after UFO with its games?

Phil: Well, it's a bit cheap, isn't it?

Phil: They're just giving you four of them, but this has a narrative and blah, blah, blah.

Phil: Firewatch, Titanfall Planet Coaster, Civ and Doom Eternal, because I forgot that Doom Eternal was the bad one, not Doom

Tom: I think Doom Eternal is meant to be pretty good, isn't it?

Phil: No, I don't like it.

Phil: They got too fancy with it.

Phil: They said that, well, when you guys played Doom you guys played it wrong, so in this game, we're going to force you to play it right.

Phil: So you've got to string together combos.

Phil: Which is antithetical to the whole concept of Doom in my mind.

Tom: I think they're correct.

Tom: I think they're correct.

Phil: They're correct?

Tom: Yeah, I think they were right.

Tom: You're the one who is wrong in this scenario, I think.

Phil: How so?

Phil: Do I go string to get a combos, to get a kill?

Tom: I think the Doom remake is all about combos and stylish gameplay.

Tom: It's essentially a beat-em-up just with first-person shooter mechanics.

Phil: It was much more enjoyable.

Phil: Yeah, but they didn't punish you for not playing the game their way.

Phil: You could still play it like a straight-out shooter.

Tom: I'm sure there's a way to play Doom Eternal as a straightforward shooter.

Phil: If you're ready, well, I'll give it a try.

Phil: I'll download it again and give it a try.

Tom: You just need to commit to it.

Phil: All right.

Tom: I'll prove them.

Tom: I don't know if that will prove them wrong or not, but commit to the way you want to play the game and find a way.

Phil: I'll give it a go.

Phil: So we'll close out this podcast with an e-mail.

Phil: Are you ready?

Tom: I want to ask, how have you been able to download all of these games?

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Most of the ones I've told you about are small, and I download them between o'clock at night and o'clock in the morning, which is my off-peak minutes.

Phil: Or I wait until my internet is depleted for the month, and I've already been slowed to K or something like that.

Phil: Then I just download it because, well, I'm not getting penalized for it.

Phil: I don't care if it takes hours or hours to do.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: So that's how I've been being around it.

Tom: So you find a way there, I'm sure you can find a way.

Tom: Play Doom Eternal how you want as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I have the tenacity and resourcefulness to figure it out.

Phil: We'll close out with an email from Madison.

Phil: So put your listening ears on.

Phil: It's from Madison, a human, not Madison, Wisconsin.

Phil: And Madison writes-

Tom: Where's human?

Phil: Madison, yeah.

Phil: Nowhere near where you are.

Phil: I can assure you of that.

Phil: Madison writes, what is your favorite, what is your favorite gaming experience with a game that was outside your normal gaming comfort zone?

Phil: So game-

Tom: I feel like I've been asked this question before.

Phil: Oh well.

Phil: Let's see if you give a different answer.

Tom: That's a good point.

Tom: I have to think about that.

Tom: So this would be like a trying a game in a genre you don't normally play for the first time.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: I think maybe playing Dark Souls

Tom: Because it's not-

Tom: it wasn't a new experience in the sense of playing a hard game because I usually play games on hard.

Tom: By default, so Dark Souls isn't really that much more difficult than a lot of games are when you actually play them on the hardest difficulty available.

Tom: But I had been just totally put off ever playing a Souls game due to how fucking obnoxious Souls game fans are.

Tom: And the narrow, ridiculous way they reduce the enjoyment of the game down to it being enjoyable solely because it's difficult and there's nothing else to like about the game.

Tom: Which these days might sound weird because people now talk about the law in the games.

Tom: They talk about why the gameplay is actually good outside of the fact that it is difficult.

Tom: But when Demon Souls came out and even Dark Souls, that was all these fuckwits could talk about.

Tom: So I went into it as someone who had no interest in playing a Souls game, but thought if I could get a review copy, here's a way to do it for free.

Tom: And then I'd be forced to play it.

Tom: So I'd say probably that because was it difficult?

Tom: Yes, it was similar to hard games that are hard, but within that, the way the combat worked was just beautifully satisfying.

Tom: It was an engrossing world even in, perhaps according to most people, the worst illustration of that in Dark Souls

Tom: So it was just a completely unexpectedly enjoyable experience in many ways.

Phil: I think when you talk about bands of Dark Souls, now I bought Dead Souls back when Sony polished it for the PlayStation

Phil: And I saw its appeal without having been exposed to the fan base because people didn't really catch on to it until Dark Souls, right?

Phil: And I saw its appeal, but I was like, this isn't fun, it's not for me.

Phil: I don't like Ninja Gaiden, games that are hard for the sake of being hard.

Phil: So what do you think about this?

Phil: When you described the fans there that were very narrowly focused on a certain aspect of the difficulty of the game, I think that's a very German perspective.

Phil: And I don't know why.

Tom: I'm surprised that Art Axman doesn't like it then, I have to say.

Phil: Yeah, well, I haven't played this particular game, but yeah, I just think it's a very, it's a very, like, it's a niche thing for people who are over a certain way.

Phil: And then there's been some games in that genre that have been released that are more accessible, that people like, like Elden Ring and whatever the PlayStation exclusive one was.

Tom: I think what it's about is, because if people talk about Ninja Gaiden, for example, of course, they'll mention how hard it is, but they will focus on the brilliance of the mechanics and the depth that is there.

Tom: I think the issue for Souls fans, up until it blew up post Dark Souls, and really not just post Dark Souls, but a good way after the initial reviews of Dark Souls, and that sort of started percolating into the mainstream more.

Tom: I think the key thing was that these people had this game they loved, that didn't have much of a positive critical reception, and that everyone else ignored.

Tom: And instead of trying to explain what made it so great, they wanted to instead demonstrate their superiority in the fact that they could enjoy such a hard game.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Like they're an exclusive club, and the fact that you don't understand it means you don't get it, man.

Tom: You're too much of a shit gamer to be able to enjoy.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Which is a good point.

Tom: I don't mind elitism in games, and there's that element too.

Tom: It's still, which is humorous, with the whole get good to if you've stuck somewhere or whatever, that sort of thing, that's fine.

Tom: That's a standard part of gaming.

Tom: But if that's the sole part of it, then you're not really explaining why you enjoy the game.

Tom: Because you could just become a speed runner at any game, and you could have the same position.

Tom: But yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, thank you for that.

Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: There's a lot of resources on our website, gameunder.net, covering games from that time to now, and our features and editorials as well.

Tom: Are we not going to get Arthur Axman's answer to that email?

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, use our comment section from our homepage.

Tom: What about Phil Fogg?

Phil: Everyone knows what Phil Fogg's answer to that question would be.

Phil: It would be a game like Halo Wars, which is a real-time strategy, which I hate real-time strategies.

Phil: They stress me out no end.

Phil: But because it was Halo, I was like, I'll buy it.

Phil: I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I never wanted to play it again.

Phil: Along that same way was Brutal Legend, which again was the Jack Black Double Fine game.

Phil: Again, turned out to be a Stealth.

Phil: By Stealth, I mean, not announced before it was sold, RTS game.

Phil: Again, thoroughly enjoyed it, while hating it the whole time, because I hate real-time strategy games.

Phil: They're too stressful.

Phil: And the other one would be Dragon Quest Rocket Slime, which is a tower defense game for the DS, which is one of my top five games of all time.

Phil: I'd never see myself enjoying a tower defense game, and I bought it not knowing that that's what it was, and it was again, as I said, probably in my top five of games of all time.

Phil: So that's my answer.

Tom: I feel like I've heard that before, so I think we have done this before, and I gave a different answer.

Phil: You did.

Tom: And you supplied the same answer.

Phil: I'm consistent, man.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to Episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: Thank you for listening.

Game Under Podcast 165

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

In our last episode of 2024, we revisit a fun and short visit with some of our quizzes from the last few years. Tom and I hope you are enjoying some time off and with friends and family.

Transcript:
Phil: Hello, and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm your host, Phil Fogg.

Phil: Unfortunately, Tom Towers is on assignment and not joining us in this compendium episode, where we're going to go back through six or seven episodes and replay all of our quizzes, dating back to episode all the way through to episode

Phil: I hope you enjoy this episode, where Australia's longest running video game podcast is being recorded on the th of December

Phil: I hope you enjoy.

Phil: But first, I thought we'd revive an old segment that we haven't done for a very long time.

Phil: And that is Back of the Box.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm excited, it's your turn.

Phil: Yes, and it didn't sound like you'd practice that at all, thank you.

Phil: And I'm glad you're excited that it returned.

Phil: So just to remind listeners, this is a segment that was stolen from us by gameinformer.com about three years ago, where I read to Tom the back of the box of certain games, and then you have to guess what they are.

Phil: Now, because I'm looking at a library of, you know, games, I'm going to make it easy for you.

Phil: These are all games that were released on the Xbox

Phil: That's basically all I'm going to tell you.

Phil: So these are Xbox games.

Phil: I'm going to read them to you, and you're going to try and guess what that game was.

Phil: Ready?

<v SPEAKER_>Ready.

Phil: Blank is a shooter unlike any you've ever played, loaded with weapons and tactics never seen.

Phil: You'll have a complete arsenal at your disposal, from simple revolvers to grenade launchers and chemical throwers, but you'll also be forced to genetically modify your DNA to create an even more deadly weapon.

Phil: You.

Phil: Injectable blanks give you superhuman powers.

Phil: Blast electrical currents into water and electrocute multiple enemies, or freeze them solid and obliterate them with the swing of a wrench.

Phil: No encounter ever plays the same, and no two gamers will play the game the same way.

Phil: Okay, do you need additional clues?

<v SPEAKER_>I think so.

Phil: You do?

Phil: Turn everything into a weapon, the environment, your body, fire and water, and even your worst enemies.

<v SPEAKER_>See, the problem is, when they're that detailed, they're then actually harder, quite often.

<v SPEAKER_>So I'm going to go with Max Payne

Phil: No, I'm sorry, I'll give you another clue.

Phil: Hack devices and systems, upgrade your weapons, and craft new ammo variants.

<v SPEAKER_>Bioshock?

Phil: Correct!

Phil: Ha!

Phil: It only took two guesses.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think that you get a negative one for that, because you should have gotten an ad.

Phil: You'll also be forced to genetically modify your DNA to create an even more deadly weapon than you.

Phil: So you get a negative one for that.

Phil: Okay?

<v SPEAKER_>Definitely.

Phil: So now we're going to move on to another Xbox exclusive, and hopefully this will be easier for your small mind to get around.

Phil: Are you ready?

<v SPEAKER_>Yep.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Imagine a place where gravity isn't always down.

Phil: It can be controlled, twisted, flipped, and even wrap around small planetoids.

Phil: Imagine walking on walls and ceilings.

Phil: Can you handle the new challenge?

Phil: Portals change everything.

Phil: Experience for the first time the reality-bending effects of a portal world.

Phil: This game sets a new standard that will completely mess with your mind.

<v SPEAKER_>Pray.

<v SPEAKER_>What?

Phil: No, I'm sorry.

<v SPEAKER_>It's as if we'd already done that one before.

Phil: Darn, I screwed up because this is actually what I meant to read to you.

Phil: Ready?

Phil: Open your mind to a new way of gaming.

Phil: Portal blends...

Phil: All right, fine.

Phil: So you get a plus one for that.

Phil: You got...

Phil: You got pray.

Phil: Okay, so here goes.

Phil: The final one.

Phil: You're currently at zero.

Phil: If you get this one right, you will be in positive territory.

Phil: The tragedies that took his loved ones years ago are wounds that refuse to heal.

Phil: No longer a cop, close to washed up and addicted to painkillers.

Phil: This man takes a job in another country, protecting the family of a wealthy real estate mogul, in an effect, in an effort to finally escape his troubled past.

Phil: But as efforts spiral out of his control, this man finds himself alone on the streets in an unfamiliar city, desperately searching for the truth and for fighting a way out.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it portal?

Phil: No.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Bioshock?

Phil: No.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Prey?

<v SPEAKER_>No.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Max Payne ?

<v SPEAKER_>No.

Phil: That wasn't released on the so we'll give you Max Payne correct.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Max Payne?

<v SPEAKER_>Well, I was going to go with Max Payne

Phil: Yeah, well, it was not released on the Xbox so you correctly guessed Max Payne which reminds me of a prior episode where we talked about the sequels.

Phil: What could the story do in a future Max Payne series?

Phil: So let's go back to that time.

Phil: For something else, too, I just think in Max Payne I would love it to start with him being a clerk in a rental car agency, like in a really bad-fitting uniform, like having to write up paperwork.

<v SPEAKER_>And it turns out the guy that recruited him into the used car business is actually a criminal.

Phil: A rental car.

<v SPEAKER_>Yeah, a rental car criminal.

<v SPEAKER_>And the cars are, they're not stolen cars, they're cars used in drive-by shootings or drug running, and this is how they get rid of them.

Phil: No, no, no, what they are, right?

Phil: These are cars that insurance companies have written off as being unsafe, and they're supposed to go to the wrecker.

Phil: But instead of going to the wrecker, they go to this guy who gives them some superficial repairs and then sells them to this rental car company.

<v SPEAKER_>And so he's responsible for the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of civilian motorists.

Phil: Right, and then Max Payne decides to start looking into this.

Phil: Unfortunately, he chooses one of the cars that is not road-ready.

<v SPEAKER_>This is how he finds out.

<v SPEAKER_>He's with his new wife.

Phil: Yeah.

<v SPEAKER_>And the guy's like, well, I'll take my car broken down.

Phil: He's on his honeymoon, and he says, OK, well, no need for you to rent a car from somewhere else.

Phil: Take a couple of the line minivan.

Phil: Yep.

<v SPEAKER_>And his wife gets killed in the crash, and he blames himself.

Phil: Airbag doesn't deploy.

<v SPEAKER_>And he blames himself, but the seatbelt breaks.

<v SPEAKER_>And so the autopsy report, the coroner says, she was killed because she wasn't wearing a seatbelt, but he knows this is bullshit.

<v SPEAKER_>And everyone's like, well, it's her fault she's dead.

<v SPEAKER_>They tell him to get over it.

Phil: No, no, no.

Phil: What happens is, just days before the wedding, he takes out a massive insurance policy on her.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And so when she dies in the honeymoon, the family starts to make accusations about this.

Phil: It seems that the seatbelt has been tampered with, but it hasn't been tampered with, it's just because it was a written-off card.

<v SPEAKER_>Yep.

Phil: And so now the police are after him for the murder of his wife.

<v SPEAKER_>And this all happened in Australia?

Phil: In Australia, yes.

<v SPEAKER_>Yeah, absolutely.

<v SPEAKER_>I think once again, we need to start, we need to get into running for rock star.

Phil: That's Max Payne

Phil: That's after he's come back from Afghanistan.

Phil: We can kill off wives like three a game.

Phil: No problem.

Phil: You know, it's been a long time since we've played the game Gun or No Gun.

Phil: Do you remember this game?

<v SPEAKER_>Yes, I do.

Phil: You do?

Phil: Where basically I give you the name of a game and you tell me whether there's a gun on the cover?

<v SPEAKER_>Yep.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I've got Xbox games in front of me that I grabbed at random.

Phil: They are the H through K section.

Phil: You would be surprised at how few games start with the letter H, I, J, and K.

Phil: So I'll just give you the name of the game and you tell me if there's a weapon on the front or an act of violence.

Phil: And then I'll tell you whether you're right or wrong.

Phil: Now, do you have a pen?

Phil: Because you're going to have to keep score because if you, there's a prize if you get more than percent of these right.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm not sure I want the sort of prizes you give out, but I'm ready.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: The Simpsons, hit or run?

<v SPEAKER_>I partially remember the cover.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm going to say definitely no gun.

Phil: No gun?

Phil: But is there an act of violence or a weapon on the cover?

Phil: It's gun, weapon?

<v SPEAKER_>I think there's a rake.

<v SPEAKER_>There's something like a rake on the cover.

<v SPEAKER_>So there is a weapon on the cover, I believe.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: That is a no.

Phil: That is a non-violent game cover.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm going to have to be patantic here, though.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm going to have to be patantic here because...

Phil: Are you looking up the cover?

<v SPEAKER_>Yes.

Phil: You're not allowed to cheat.

<v SPEAKER_>I mean, it's not cheating if I already...

<v SPEAKER_>We just said what the game was.

Phil: The Simpsons, hit and run?

<v SPEAKER_>Yes.

<v SPEAKER_>Let me just point out here that there is a tentacle coming out of the sewer...

Phil: Yes...

<v SPEAKER_>.

<v SPEAKER_>spraying some sort of acid.

<v SPEAKER_>That is an act of violence.

<v SPEAKER_>There's also...

Phil: There's also a decapitation of a statue.

<v SPEAKER_>Yes.

Phil: So, you...

<v SPEAKER_>So, I'm sorry, but that's a yes.

<v SPEAKER_>I was correct.

Phil: You are correct.

Phil: All right.

Phil: The next game, worst game ever made, Hitman Contracts.

Phil: No typing.

Phil: Gun.

Phil: Yes, correct.

Phil: Hulk Ultimate...

<v SPEAKER_>You told me to keep score.

Phil: I'm keeping score.

Phil: Hulk Ultimate Destruction.

<v SPEAKER_>No gun.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm going to go with act of violence.

Phil: Correct.

Phil: Have you ever played that game?

<v SPEAKER_>No, I haven't.

Phil: It's apparently pretty good.

<v SPEAKER_>It looks fun.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Hunter The Reckoning.

<v SPEAKER_>Yes, gun slash crossbow thing.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Wow, you know you're a Hunter The Reckoning cover.

Phil: That was developed by Danger High Voltage Software.

Phil: Do you know what other notable game they...

Phil: What notable game on the Wii did they develop for an extra point?

<v SPEAKER_>Was it The Conduit?

Phil: Wow.

Phil: Shit, man.

Phil: You should get paid for this.

Phil: I Ninja, which is I-Ninja, not I Common Ninja.

Phil: It's not like, you know, I Ninja.

<v SPEAKER_>No gun.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm not sure if I'm familiar with this game.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm going to say no gun and maybe some shurikens, but no act of violence.

Phil: There are three shurikens and a large samurai sword.

Phil: Actually, ninjas don't use samurai swords, do they?

Phil: Katana.

<v SPEAKER_>I believe samurais use samurai swords.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So ninjas must use katanas.

Phil: It's a kiddie platformer game with really good graphics, as I recall.

Phil: Indigo Prophecy, known as Fahrenheit in some territories.

<v SPEAKER_>I believe there is definitely no gun on the cover.

<v SPEAKER_>If there was a weapon, it would be the knife.

<v SPEAKER_>And I am going to go with the knife is there, because I can't remember if it is merely him in some sort of meditative stance or him also looking down at the bloody knife, wondering what he's done.

<v SPEAKER_>And given that's the most melodramatic and ridiculous possibility, I'm going to go with knife.

Phil: Wow, you actually just exactly described the cover of that game.

Phil: So you are correct.

Phil: You're currently seven out of seven.

Phil: I'm going to speed this up a little bit.

Phil: Did Deus Ex Invisible War?

<v SPEAKER_>That's actually got a similar cover to Fahrenheit.

<v SPEAKER_>Wait, no, no, that's the second one, right?

Phil: Yes.

<v SPEAKER_>I was thinking of Mankind Divided.

<v SPEAKER_>Now, that's more difficult.

<v SPEAKER_>I am going to say no gun.

<v SPEAKER_>There's definitely no act of violence, but I'm going to say no gun, but that may be wrong, but I'm sticking with that.

<v SPEAKER_>But there's certainly sunglasses.

Phil: No, no sunglasses.

Phil: This is...

<v SPEAKER_>Amazing.

Phil: Yes, there's a massive Mako gun, or Mako pistol.

Phil: It probably takes up % of the front cover, and it's pointing at us.

Phil: Actually, there's some sort of rule that they can't have the gun pointing at you, I think, in Europe, so it's kind of pointing down to the side, but it's there.

Phil: So that's the first one you've gotten wrong.

Phil: Iron Phoenix.

<v SPEAKER_>I got that very wrong indeed.

Phil: Sega's Iron Phoenix.

Phil: It was developed by Sega Sammy.

<v SPEAKER_>I have no idea what this game is.

Phil: It's the first ever -player online fighting game.

Phil: The most innovative game of Eaccording to Team Xbox.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm gonna go with Act of Violence.

Phil: There are massive acts of violence, and massive swords and weapons, so you are correct.

Phil: Almost done.

Phil: Jade Empire from Bioware.

<v SPEAKER_>No gun.

<v SPEAKER_>I think maybe some sort of dagger or something to that effect, and I do not recall there being an act of violence, but I could well be wrong.

<v SPEAKER_>And there are multiple covers for this game, I believe, in any case.

Phil: Yeah, I'm holding the limited edition, and there is a massive sword, a flaming sword.

Phil: It is a horrible cover, comically bad.

Phil: Okay, Jetset Radio Future.

<v SPEAKER_>Well, now this is a controversial thing, because some people for some reason believe that a spray paint can, could be a weapon, and that spray painting something could be an act of violence.

<v SPEAKER_>So we'll have to define our terms here.

Phil: I don't think it's a weapon.

Phil: I don't think for the purposes of this, we will say it's not a weapon.

<v SPEAKER_>Okay, then there is no weapon.

Phil: Correct.

<v SPEAKER_>And, and I also will say no act of violence, because I would add that spray painting something.

<v SPEAKER_>Unless you're spray painting a person, which is not occurring on the cover, is not an act of violence.

Phil: And the last game, this is a tough one.

Phil: It's from Avalanche Studios, published by Eidos, that later got bought out by Square.

Phil: It's rated M for Mature, and a game you're probably familiar with, Just Cause.

<v SPEAKER_>I am indeed familiar with Just Cause, and I believe there is a gun on that cover.

Phil: Incredibly not.

<v SPEAKER_>Amazing.

Phil: Though, there is a bullet hole.

Phil: So, I'll let you decide if that counts.

Phil: But yeah, incredibly, there's not a gun.

<v SPEAKER_>Well, given my success throughout the rest of the list, I'll put that down as a failure.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, out of those games, you've got right and wrong.

Phil: So, congratulations.

Phil: You know your covers, man.

Phil: You know your s era games.

Phil: That's pretty impressive.

Phil: Are there any games in that?

Phil: I am going to share a game with you on itch.io.

Phil: You can pick from one of games available.

Phil: So, what's my prize?

Phil: Is there any game in that stack that you played?

Phil: Simpsons Hit and Run?

<v SPEAKER_>I've played that briefly, yes.

Phil: The Horrible Hitman Contracts game?

Phil: I don't know.

<v SPEAKER_>I think I have played a tiny bit of that as well.

<v SPEAKER_>I've played a tiny bit of Deus Ex.

<v SPEAKER_>I have played and completed to a high level at that Jade Empire.

Phil: Really?

<v SPEAKER_>That I would put down as probably my favorite Bioware game.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that one's backward compatible with the Xbox One.

Phil: So, I will put that in and install it, because I remember falling off that game.

<v SPEAKER_>Like all other Bioware games, it has a absolutely awful opening...

Phil: .

Phil: many of games, and we'll go through this game in a year episode.

Phil: There's plenty of games I've played this year that got less than $

Phil: Or an A.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: No, don't clear your throat accusatorially.

Phil: You know what you've deserved before you talk about your little game?

Phil: What?

Phil: You've deserved a back of the box segment.

Phil: You're getting punished.

Phil: Now, I've made it easy for you.

Phil: There's three games that are all PlayStation exclusives.

Phil: So last show, we did Xbox exclusives.

Phil: These are all PlayStation exclusives, and then there's a bonus round.

Phil: A game, I guess, for Tiebreaker?

Phil: All right, I'm gonna read you what's on the back of the box, you're gonna guess the game.

Phil: And I'll start with an easy one, just to get you warmed up.

Phil: All right, you ready?

<v SPEAKER_>Yep.

Phil: Peril.

Phil: Assemble.

Phil: Free-roaming battle system.

Phil: Run freely around the battle map to set up spatial and dynamic strategies.

Phil: Over playable characters.

Phil: Enough game console personifications to create your dream team.

Phil: Transformation.

Phil: Transform to unleash the girls' true powers and special abilities.

Phil: Item development.

Phil: Develop new items to make your journey easier and more fun.

Phil: PlayStation exclusive.

Phil: Can you identify this game?

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Connecticut?

Phil: No.

Phil: And you know it's not.

<v SPEAKER_>I wish it was.

<v SPEAKER_>Is there anything more?

Phil: No, that's it.

Phil: That's all your puzzles.

Phil: Transform to unleash the girls' true powers and special abilities.

<v SPEAKER_>The girls' part is what has confused me.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Powerpuff Girls?

Phil: No.

<v SPEAKER_>License game?

Phil: No, not license.

Phil: It's from NIS America.

<v SPEAKER_>Oh, hyperdimension neptune.

Phil: Mark?

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So you needed the developer to toss you over the edge there.

Phil: Literally.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So next one.

Phil: These should be easy for you, man.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: The next one, I'm going to give you the second easiest one.

Phil: This game is a hack and slash of the highest order.

Phil: A stunning mix of Asian mythology and sci-fi.

<v SPEAKER_>Azura's Wrath.

Phil: There you go.

Phil: What was the kickoff?

<v SPEAKER_>Asian mythology.

Phil: Now, the rest of the box banter says, rage never dies in caps and red and bald.

Phil: Betrayed by the gods, banished for years, his wife killed his daughter, kidnapped in a truly unique blend of breathtaking action and story, Azura's Wrath takes you on a relentless quest for revenge.

Phil: I was hoping that you would think that was God of War.

<v SPEAKER_>God of War is an Asian mythology, so that couldn't happen.

Phil: Depends on how broadly you want to identify Asia.

<v SPEAKER_>I've just figured out this is literally just an excuse so that you can read the texts on the back of boxes, because even after I get something, before you complete the text, you just keep going.

Phil: Yeah, I know.

Phil: Well, it's easier than podcasting.

Phil: I just sit here and read.

Phil: If you want me to read other things, I've got the newspaper in front of me.

Phil: You will never forget this game.

Phil: The future is in your hands.

Phil: Award-winning game designer will captivate your senses, and this time in D.

Phil: Immerse yourself in a unique multi-sensory game experience in stereoscopic D.

Phil: Any idea?

<v SPEAKER_>I want to say it's Blink, but it's not.

Phil: I haven't Blink.

Phil: Blink?

Phil: What's Blink?

<v SPEAKER_>Is that the right name?

<v SPEAKER_>I think the Xbox game about...

Phil: Dude, PlayStation exclusives.

<v SPEAKER_>Yeah, well, I said I wanted to, but I know it's not.

Phil: Blink the Time Sweeper?

Phil: Blink the Time Sweeper?

<v SPEAKER_>Yeah, exactly.

Phil: The future is in your hands.

Phil: Award-winning game designer Blank will captivate your series' senses, and this time in D.

Phil: Immerse yourself in a unique...

<v SPEAKER_>Is it...

<v SPEAKER_>What's the name for it?

<v SPEAKER_>Child of Eden?

Phil: Yes, it's Child of Eden.

Phil: How did you get that?

<v SPEAKER_>What was the text again?

<v SPEAKER_>I'll tell you.

Phil: The future is in your hands.

Phil: Award-winning game designer will captivate your senses, and this time in D.

<v SPEAKER_>Captivate your senses, and this time in D.

Phil: Ah, okay.

Phil: See, I thought you would have got it on, use the PS Move Motion Controller to take the immersion to all new levels.

Phil: So there you go, Child of Eden.

Phil: Which I always confuse with that Ubisoft game, Child of Endor, or whatever the fuck it's called.

Phil: Anyway, Child of Eden, so you got out of

<v SPEAKER_>Child of Light.

Phil: Yeah, Child of Light, right.

Phil: The Microsoft game.

Phil: So now, this means you get to the bonus round.

Phil: No, but it's on Microsoft platforms, such as Xbox One and...

<v SPEAKER_>As well as Sony and even Nintendo.

Phil: No, no, Child of Endor is not available on any platform not owned by Microsoft.

Phil: It's not on PlayStation.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm sure it is.

Phil: All right, what's it really called, Child of Light?

<v SPEAKER_>Child of Light.

Phil: Yeah, it was an Xbox One exclusive and also available on Steam.

Phil: And that's the end of the story.

Phil: So you've earned yourself a bonus round since you got an offer.

<v SPEAKER_>It was even on the PS Vita.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, except the PS Vita.

Phil: But everyone knows that Microsoft secretly owns the Vita.

Phil: So this game, I will give you the score if you just get the franchise right.

Phil: All right?

Phil: Now, this is a PlayStation exclusive.

Phil: And this says, a blank of a lifetime.

Phil: Okay?

Phil: So it's something, a blank that you will only have once in a lifetime.

Phil: A lifetime of farming takes on new meaning in this special edition.

Phil: Besides, it's planting crops, raising animals, and rebuilding your father's farm.

Phil: You'll make friends in Forget Me Not Valley, find your future bride, and hopefully cultivate a happy family.

Phil: Special edition features for the place...

<v SPEAKER_>Wait a minute, though.

<v SPEAKER_>I'm going to assume this is a PSexclusive, like, Child of Light was an Xbox exclusive.

Phil: No, this is a true...

<v SPEAKER_>And so it's Harvest Moon.

Phil: No, no, no, no.

Phil: What?

<v SPEAKER_>Is it Harvest Moon?

Phil: Yes.

<v SPEAKER_>Yes.

Phil: Now, you only had to get the franchise right, but it's Harvest Moon A Wonderful Life Special Edition.

Phil: Now, Harvest Moon A Wonderful Life was initially released on the N

<v SPEAKER_>It's a special edition, the explicitness of the cover of Back of the Box text, right?

Phil: Yes, right.

Phil: Well, the special edition features include things for the PlayStation computer entertainment system.

Phil: You get to meet and charm expanded selection.

<v SPEAKER_>I thought you were going to say include double penetration.

Phil: Well, you do get to charm an expanded selection of eligible brides.

Phil: So...

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Wait, now, it says discover the new farming enhancements like the fertilizer machine.

Phil: I live on a farm.

Phil: There's such a thing as a fertilizer spreader.

Phil: I don't think there's such a thing as a...

Phil: Now, don't read into fertilizer spreader.

Phil: That's disgusting.

Phil: This...

Phil: I've never heard of a fertilizer machine.

Phil: Anyway, apparently...

<v SPEAKER_>Well, is the spreader a machine?

Phil: The spreader is a device.

<v SPEAKER_>Is it mechanical?

Phil: In nature, yes, but it doesn't have its own drive.

Phil: You have to hook it up to a tractor to make it work.

<v SPEAKER_>I don't think a machine necessarily has to, does it?

Phil: I think it's peripheral.

Phil: Is a controller a machine?

<v SPEAKER_>Why not?

<v SPEAKER_>That's what I'm asking you.

Phil: Well, a controller for your PlayStation is not a machine because it doesn't do anything in and of itself.

<v SPEAKER_>Well, my PScontroller has a light on it that shines.

Phil: Not if you unplug it.

Phil: If you unplug it.

<v SPEAKER_>Oh, yeah, it's a wireless controller.

Phil: If you unplug the wireless controller, it will not.

Phil: It's not a machine.

Phil: Is a light bulb a machine?

<v SPEAKER_>Here's a definition of machine, and controller qualifies for this.

<v SPEAKER_>The PScontroller anyway, an apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions used in the performance of some kind of work.

Phil: Okay.

<v SPEAKER_>So a controller would qualify.

Phil: Absolutely not.

Phil: Because a controller would not, without the console to which it's connected, it doesn't perform any work.

<v SPEAKER_>That is nowhere mentioned in the definition.

<v SPEAKER_>An apparatus consisting of interrelated parts with separate functions used in the performance of some kind of work.

<v SPEAKER_>So the controller qualifies.

Phil: It's not performing any kind of work if it's not connected to a console.

<v SPEAKER_>That doesn't matter according to this definition.

Phil: You just said the definition of a machine is something.

<v SPEAKER_>It merely has to consist of interrelated parts with separate functions used in the performance of some kind of work.

<v SPEAKER_>The controller is used in the performance of some kind of work, and has interrelated parts with separate functions.

Phil: It certainly has interrelated parts with separate functions.

Phil: But what work is it conducting if it's not connected to a console?

Phil: Turning on a light.

Phil: Damn it, the PlayStation

Phil: Yeah.

<v SPEAKER_>So...

Phil: Anyway, so congratulations.

<v SPEAKER_>I specifically used the PScontroller as an example, so...

Phil: You got out of

Phil: I did not think you were going to get Child of Eden at all.

<v SPEAKER_>Wasn't it out of ?

Phil: No, you got out of

Phil: You got them all.

Phil: You got Hyperdimension, Azurath...

<v SPEAKER_>I thought that was the developer.

<v SPEAKER_>I wouldn't class that as a victory.

Phil: The Neptunia?

Phil: Okay, we got out of

Phil: So, congratulations.

Phil: You did a great job.

Phil: Yeah, you really did.

Phil: You should be proud of that.

<v SPEAKER_>It's one of my great achievements in life.

Phil: I think we'll tweet that out later on your official Twitter handle, at Game Under Phil.

<v SPEAKER_>Yeah, out of is going right on the wall.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Well, obviously, I enjoy the back-of-the-box segment more so than anyone else.

Phil: So, on to the next game.

Phil: And over at the VG Press, I've started up a gaming trivia quiz at thevgpress.com in the gaming forum.

Phil: And I did this when I had forgotten my password for my main account.

Phil: And the administrator for our site has basically ghosted our whole community so I was unable to get my password reset.

Phil: So, I started this as an alternate identity, very close to my real identity on the site.

<v SPEAKER_>What would you say is the difference?

Phil: Well, one is called Aspro, one is called the real Aspro.

Phil: So, I started this gaming trivia thing.

Phil: And so, for the people that aren't part of the VG Press community, like, you know, the very first one, which I think was really obvious to anyone that knows anything about video games, I started with a really easy question, which was, what video game system's distinct plastic coloring was chosen by its parsimonious manufacturer due to them being able to buy plastics in that color more cheaply?

Phil: Now, the obvious answer is the Famicom, the Nintendo Famicom, with its maroon plastics.

Phil: You knew that answer, right?

<v SPEAKER_>Well, I would have said NES if someone else had not previously said that.

Phil: But the NES is gray.

Phil: The NES is...

<v SPEAKER_>No, but as in the Famicom, because they're also technically the same thing.

Phil: Well, they're not.

Phil: They're different.

Phil: They have different plastics.

<v SPEAKER_>If you look up Famicom on Wikipedia, I believe it is referred to as the Famicom slash NES.

Phil: Now, the second question was, Gunpei Yokoi was famous for creating the Game Boy and infamous for creating the Virtual Boy.

Phil: But what is the name of the non-Nintendo gaming console he created?

Phil: This is like basic stuff.

Phil: Everyone knows the answer is one to one.

<v SPEAKER_>Well, I think someone got it.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: And somehow, you've climbed your way to the top with your expertise in-

<v SPEAKER_>Second in place, I believe.

Phil: Yeah, well, yeah, but you're ascending because of your knowledge of Michael Jackson.

<v SPEAKER_>Maybe he's the person I'm accusing of being a pedophile in every episode.

Phil: Perhaps.

<v SPEAKER_>Which I think you don't need to censor because he's dead.

Phil: Dead, exactly.

Phil: Did I teach you that on a prior show?

<v SPEAKER_>I don't know, but if anyone wants clues as to who I'm talking about, the joke is because he is evidence that I should not be at risk of being sued for defamation if I accuse someone of being a pedophile.

<v SPEAKER_>That's what the joke is about.

Phil: Now, it is true that you cannot slander the dead.

Phil: You can say anything you want about the dead people, at least in the US, this is the case.

Phil: And I think I may have taught you this.

Phil: But anyway, if someone's dead, and maybe this came up with our obituaries.

Phil: But if someone is dead, you cannot slander them.

Phil: You cannot be sued for defaming them.

Phil: Now, what was the other one that you got?

Phil: Because of your advanced knowledge of...

<v SPEAKER_>Metal Gear Solid.

Phil: No, Stubbs the Zombie.

<v SPEAKER_>Yeah, Stubbs the Zombie.

Phil: That was just to see if anyone listens to the show at the VG Press.

<v SPEAKER_>And we proved that they do not.

Phil: They do not.

Phil: They do not listen all the way through.

Phil: So we know, listeners.

Phil: So anyway, I believe you...

Phil: First of all, it was one of the best gaming forum moments of my life, where you suggested a password.

Phil: And in the background, the site's dormant administrator happened to contact me, like in the same hour, reset my password.

Phil: It was just beautiful.

Phil: I was laughing for like minutes.

<v SPEAKER_>Did he reset it to my suggested password?

Phil: No, of course he didn't.

<v SPEAKER_>That's a missed opportunity.

Phil: He made it like characters with special characters and numbers.

<v SPEAKER_>And you then immediately changed it to a single word.

Phil: Yeah, to super hot or something.

Phil: Something or WonderSwan, possibly.

Phil: So I believe you have a trivia question for me.

Phil: And if-

<v SPEAKER_>Yes, I do.

Phil: If-

Phil: now, what's the stakes here?

Phil: If I don't get it-

<v SPEAKER_>Then I will post it in the forum.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And someone will get a point for it.

<v SPEAKER_>And if someone doesn't get it, I will get a point for the leaderboard.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: But you've got hours to respond.

Phil: But this is all a big stretch because obviously, I know everything about video games.

Phil: So hit me.

<v SPEAKER_>Yes.

<v SPEAKER_>Well, we previously mentioned the male gaze on a prior episode of The Game Under Podcast, perhaps the prior episode in fact.

<v SPEAKER_>This concept was actually invented by the English art critic who made several famous BBC documentaries and is a Marxist.

<v SPEAKER_>Here is one of these Marxist academic intellectuals that are going around who people never reference when they're complaining about Marxist intellectuals because then they may have to engage with an argument that someone is making.

<v SPEAKER_>But he came up with the concept of the male gaze.

<v SPEAKER_>His name is John Peter Berger.

<v SPEAKER_>He's famous for the documentary series Ways of Seeing, which I'm sure you've seen.

Phil: Berger.

Phil: So the male gaze is not a homosexual thing.

Phil: It's about how literature and movies and stuff always see things through the male's view, right?

<v SPEAKER_>In his view.

Phil: In his view, right.

<v SPEAKER_>Yes.

<v SPEAKER_>We bring him up not due to his aesthetic theory, which we've discussed in a previous episode, nor for his documentary series, but because he voiced not one, but two characters in one of the early games in one of the biggest franchises in video games today.

<v SPEAKER_>What game was that?

Phil: This burger guy did?

<v SPEAKER_>Yes, he did.

Phil: This burger guy that came up with the theory of the male gaze voiced a character or a number of characters in an important franchise that is still relevant to this day.

<v SPEAKER_>Correct.

Phil: Oh, I can't ask any follow up questions.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: Well, let's see.

Phil: He must be old, otherwise he wouldn't be coming up with theories.

Phil: So it must be an old game, but it's got to be new enough that it had voice acting.

Phil: So I'm thinking, and it might just be because of my micro view of Ken Williams' book, that it might be a Sierra online type thing, but I, no, it's not Gex, it's not Gex the Gecko, because that was another guy.

Phil: That would have been good, because it's early, and it won't be an Ngame.

Phil: Well, it could be, Nwas quite a long time ago.

Phil: It was probably British, otherwise, well, male gays.

Phil: Okay, all right, I'm gonna commit to an answer.

Phil: Banjo Kazooie.

<v SPEAKER_>No, you are incorrect, unfortunately.

Phil: Damn it.

Phil: All right, well, we'll have to go over to the community.

<v SPEAKER_>It will, indeed.

Phil: I've posted a question over there right now, and if the answer is Geohot, but this is gonna come out way after people answer that over there, you'll have to put it up after that one to be question

Phil: So yeah, go over to the vgpress.com to their gaming discussion, which is where you see most of our community.

Phil: Yeah, all right, so back to games.

Phil: Well, dear listener, that is it for episode

Phil: I hope you've enjoyed this Christmas special as much as you're enjoying time with your family and friends at a time of the year where we usually get to relax a little bit more and take some time off.

Phil: Hopefully, you've gotten some time off as well.

Phil: We'll be back in with more episodes of Tom Towers.

Phil: Thank you very much for listening.

Phil: And please do, if you have a comment or question, visit gameunder.net and post right from the front page.

Phil: I've recently posted a review of something or other.

Phil: It's a hardware review.

Phil: Oh yes, that's right, the Steam Deck.

Phil: Check it out.

Phil: We'll talk about it in the next episode.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Game Under Podcast 164

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:27 Intro

0:00:45 UK & Russia Agree on Games

0:20:03 Sony Fire Shuhei Yoshida

0:23:30 My First Gran Turismo

0:25:55 Alarmo is not Launching on Time

0:27:04 Call of Duty: Black Ops 6

0:33:09 STALKER 2

0:41:45 LaunchBox

0:46:05 Balatro

0:52:00 Poker on TV, HSC and Soap Operas

1:02:30 Crimson Diamond

1:22:17 E-mail

1:29:15 Outro
Transcript:
WEBVTT

Phil: Hello, and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast.

Phil: My name is Phil Fogg, and I'm joined by my fellow host.

Tom: Fellow host, I think, uh, primary host.

Phil: Okay, well, primary host.

Phil: You did graduate primary school, so I guess that's an appropriate descriptor.

Tom: The only school I've graduated.

Phil: Mr.

Phil: Tom Towers.

Tom: PhD, which stands for primary school certificate.

Phil: Primary school, yeah.

Phil: Listen, you're obviously not really prepared to do a podcast, so I'm going to give you a break.

Phil: I'm going to go straight into news, and we're going to go into a light story first.

Phil: And that is, this may not seem gaming related, but Russian and UK governments think games are influential.

Phil: Hey, this is a great thing.

Phil: These two countries coming together.

Phil: The credit to this story goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Getting two stories for the price of one here.

Phil: Earlier this week, the UK counter-terrorism unit demanded that Steam withdraw a controversial shooter from sale.

Phil: The game, The Knights of the Al-Aqsa Mosque, which describes itself as both max pain on steroids as well as addressing the Israel-Ex-Palestine conflict from a Palestinian perspective.

Phil: Now, I found those two self-descriptors in different articles.

Phil: I think that's pretty interesting that they call themselves both max pain on steroids.

Phil: And then in another story, they describe themselves as addressing the Israel-Ex-Palestine conflict.

Tom: I think both can be true.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: I think one puts it in a different range of seriousness, though.

Phil: Anyway, the game was removed when Steam contacted developer Nidal Nimj to inform him that it received a request from the authorities in the UK to block the game and have applied such country restrictions.

Phil: Now, this isn't a new game.

Phil: It was released in and it was updated this month to include content reflecting Hamas's th of October terrorist attack.

Phil: A trailer for the update shows fighters that appear to be from Hamas landing in an Israel base and graphically executing Israeli soldiers.

Phil: The email to the Brazilian developer, Steam said, allegedly, this is based on what the developer is saying, quote, we've received a request from authorities in the UK to block the game and have applied such country restrictions.

Phil: When the developer reported to ask if there was a specific reason for the UK ban, he stated, my game is not too much different from other shooter games like Call of Duty.

Phil: He was told, we were contacted by the Counterterrorism Command of the United Kingdom, with an authority for a region, and as such, we must cooperate with any authority from a region that oversees and governs what content can be made available.

Phil: We have to comply with their requests.

Phil: Then, so that was the UK story.

Phil: Then later this week, Stalker Heart of Chernobyl, is reportedly being targeted by a Russian disinformation campaign falsely claiming that the post-apocalyptic shooter scans players' computers in order to help the Ukrainian government, quote, locate citizens suitable for mobilization.

Phil: As reported by Media, the claims have been made in a one-minute video, stamped with a fake, wired watermark.

Phil: So basically, why I'm supporting what they're saying here about why I'm using the fake and falsely claiming is because they're saying this is coming from Wired Magazine, but it's not.

Phil: So I'm letting that go.

Phil: But in reality, it's unconnected to the publication.

Phil: That's being circulated on social media sites and being sent directly to journalists' inbox.

Phil: The video asserts that an embedded program was discovered in Stalker 's code that collects player data and transmits it to GSC, the game's developer.

Phil: It's claims that this data is said to include the device name, IP address and current location of the player that's transmitted every second without the user's knowledge and handed to the Ukrainian government because GSC made a deal with the state, end quote, in order to secure funding for Stalker

Phil: It's better to play, quote, it's better to play using a VPN or boycott this game for your own safety.

Phil: Stalker 's website was previously blocked by the Russian government after they posted a message calling for an end to the invasion of Ukraine.

Phil: And the studio has also been targeted by hackers who stole the Stalker development material.

Phil: Just one thing here.

Phil: So the video, quote, falsely asserts an embedded program was discovered in Stalker codes.

Phil: It collects player data and transmits it to the developer's servers, including the device name, IP address and current location of the player that is transmitted every second.

Phil: That's just basically like geolocation.

Phil: I mean, Mario Kart does that when you go online.

Tom: I think so.

Phil: Yeah, because I mean, every online game basically is taking your IP address, probably your device name, I don't know.

Phil: And your location, because they're geolocating you, so they can put you against players in a local server.

Phil: So I think that part of it's probably true.

Phil: The question is, they're saying that this information is then being handed to the Ukraine government to locate citizens suitable for mobilization.

Phil: I guess what they're saying is, oh, this guy is really good at Stalker we should try and put him in our...

Phil: Put him in...

Tom: In front lines.

Phil: His Mussolinsky impression.

Phil: We should get these players who are good at Stalker and put them in our forces.

Phil: Armed forces.

Phil: So basically, we've got two examples of governments intervening.

Phil: The difference is the UK government banned the game and the Russian disinformation, whatever, is just basically, they didn't ban the game.

Phil: They're just saying, hey, you know, use a VPN.

Tom: There's just a little bit of wishful thinking going on there, I think.

Tom: That's it.

Phil: With me, or?

Tom: No, no, with the Russian government statement on the game.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Tom: And only a little bit, because you would assume that during wartime, the Ukrainian government would be interested in as much information as possible on any sort of internet activity from Russia related to the Ukraine.

Tom: So it's pretty plausible that they would be getting information on whether it was being played in Russia.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Whether or not GSC is cooperating or not.

Tom: But they would no doubt have to cooperate.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: But the Russians, this game, I think they're currently in Poland.

Phil: The Ukrainian company that I think moved their development to Poland, right?

Tom: So they didn't even develop it in Ukraine.

Phil: Well, they tried.

Phil: Give them a break.

Phil: They tried until the country was invaded.

Tom: They should have stuck it out in a bunker and developed it if they were true patriots.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Maybe the game would have turned out better.

Phil: But you've been playing it, right?

Phil: So we will get to that.

Phil: We will get to that.

Tom: But I think there's a lot more to this story.

Phil: Look, I know we're going to get to it.

Phil: But what I'm saying is, they're not tracking Russian players.

Phil: A Russian disinformation campaign is claiming that the Ukrainian government is using it to identify Ukrainian citizens who are good at stalker so they can mobilize them.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: That's what it...

Phil: Okay?

Phil: Which is on its face.

Phil: Well, it's a lot like that movie with Matthew Broderick.

Phil: What was it?

Phil: War Games?

Phil: Where the kid was identified as being really good at an arcade shooter and then the aliens came down and said, you must come and save our planet.

Phil: And again, we don't know that this is a Russian government disinformation.

Phil: I mean, to me, this sounds like just a usual, like this sounds like a humorous way to get attention on YouTube.

Tom: It could be marketing by GSC Game World for all we know.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So before we go back to the first story about the Knights of Al-Aqsa Mosque, anything else to say about this part of the story?

Tom: Well, I think just on the contrast between the two, as you noted, the Russian government, if it was them, are just making a humorous claim about it.

Tom: Meanwhile, the UK government just demanded that the game be banned.

Tom: And we're meant to be, I think, in the free speech loving section of the world, as opposed to the sensorial Russia.

Tom: In addition to that, I think the two headlines are quite interesting.

Tom: In the case of the reporting on the UK banning the game, it says, UK counter-terrorism unit demands steam block game, as opposed to the UK as a whole.

Tom: Whereas in the case of Russia, supposedly Russia making a statement, it's Russia colon, as if it's the entire nation making this statement.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Phil: And both of these came from the same source, Eurogamer.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: And they're taking it from a certain lens.

Phil: I would have hoped that someone reporting this from the UK would have...

Phil: I mean, they're basically just like, oh yeah, so this guy made a controversial game.

Phil: Like, their description, as journalists, is they watched the trailer, and this is their description.

Phil: A trailer for the update shows fighters that appear to be from Hamas, landing in an Israeli base and graphically executing Israeli soldiers.

Phil: I guess there's no real spin on that.

Phil: That's pretty straight up and down.

Tom: Well, they should have played it, for one thing, and not merely watched the trailer.

Phil: Just watched the trailer.

Phil: Yeah, but they've got to get the story out before someone else does.

Tom: You would have thought someone they knew would have played it, or at least had more knowledge of it than simply watching a trailer.

Tom: I was familiar with this game long before it was banned in the UK.

Tom: It's certainly not a mainstream game, but it's not a totally obscure game that you would not expect video game journalists have some knowledge of.

Phil: Yes, yeah, now, okay, so two points here.

Phil: Should Steam and does Steam have the right to remove the game if a government agency asks them to remove the game?

Phil: I don't blame Steam.

Phil: One point at this, Steam has to operate in every legal jurisdiction that they operate in.

Phil: They're just trying to make money.

Phil: If the government tells them that Hello Kitty is banned in Japan, they're going to take down Hello Kitty because it's banned in Japan.

Phil: I don't think this is political at all.

Phil: I think this is Steam just doing the lowest risk activity that they can, which is complying with a government entity.

Tom: I don't agree with that.

Tom: This is consistent with Steam policy in that they will fully support any sort of political posturing that they receive as long as it doesn't have a notable effect on their profits because they have certainly tried to fight against having to be in line with consumer law in countries that have some reasonable consumer laws.

Phil: Oh yeah, I mean they fought Australia vociferously and basically said, well, we'll just pull out of Australia.

Phil: You know, they were doing all sorts of things as we talked about.

Tom: So they certainly pick and choose what laws they believe they should automatically follow.

Phil: Brilliant point.

Phil: Go to our website gameunder.net and in the search type in ACCC and you'll see a story that I wrote a few years ago about how Steam chose not to follow a government dictate in a locality.

Phil: So, I mean, what's the point here, right?

Phil: I mean, I think that...

Phil: Am I offended if a game is depicting the Hamas th October attack?

Phil: Yeah, I mean, it's probably unpopular to say, but yeah, I'm offended by that.

Phil: I'd be offended by any act of brutality being depicted in any form of media.

Phil: You know, I'm offended by it.

Tom: I should add that this does not depict the October th attack.

<v SPEAKER_>Okay.

Phil: Well, it says here that the game was updated this month to include content reflecting aspects of Hamas' October terrorist attack.

Phil: A trailer for the update shows fighters that appear to be from Hamas landing in an Israeli base and graphically executing Israeli soldiers.

Tom: I don't believe that that is accurate.

Tom: I think that's their interpretation of the trailer.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, that's fine.

Phil: That's certainly the position of the counter-terrorism unit of the UK as well.

Phil: Again, just to contradict myself, I watched a really old movie called Pattern the other day, which is about World War II.

Phil: It was made a very long time ago.

Phil: It was obviously made by veterans of that war because it has very graphic and realistic depictions of the brutality of war in its opening scenes and throughout, that I haven't seen in video games and I haven't even seen in movies since.

Phil: And I was trying to think, well, why?

Phil: Why is this very old movie that easily could have left it all out?

Phil: Why did they include this disgusting brutality of war in a non-gory way, just in the way that war would be accepted?

Phil: And I saw this recently in, the only place I've seen this in recently is in Indica, where there's a scene close to the start of the game where some vehicle of some kind, a ship or a train or something like that is destroyed.

Phil: And they show the brutality of that attack.

Phil: I don't know if you recall that part of the game.

Phil: It's where the doctors address giving out basically death injections to the suffering victims, the soldiers.

Phil: So, you know, and it's not pleasant to watch, but when I watched Patton, I was like, wow, you know, that really opened a different perspective for me in terms of the brutality of war.

Phil: Now, I've always been, you know, against war.

Phil: But like it was like it was showing it in a way that only people who were making the film who must have lived through it were saying, well, this is what it looks like, people.

Phil: So I'm not saying that a game should be banned for being challenging or being graphic.

Phil: I personally can be offended by the content and feel that, you know, this isn't the sort of thing that I want to watch, but certainly I wouldn't ban it, you know, just as I wouldn't ban Patton, I wouldn't ban this game because you can't ban speech because it's offensive.

Phil: You can only...

Phil: When can you ban speech?

Phil: I mean, when it has a tangible and direct violent impact, I guess.

Tom: In what way would speech have a tangible violent impact?

Phil: Well, the old adage in the States is, you know, screaming fire in a crowded theatre when there is no fire, you know, causing people to leave the theatre in a hurried manny and crushing people.

Tom: This sounds like bad theatre design.

Tom: It should be possible to safely evacuate a cinema in the case of a fire.

Phil: Yeah, but you know, you had the case, boy, this is really getting into a downer.

Phil: I mean, there was a news story this week about the people in Hamas, you know, getting crushed to death in trying to get a crust of bread or, you know, scooping the remnants out of a soup pot, you know.

Phil: So, you know, crushing, crushing, crushing deaths do happen, as you know.

Tom: Of course.

Phil: So, yeah, so I'm offended by both sides of this thing.

Phil: So don't, please, listen, don't, don't.

Tom: Well, the game isn't called Fire and it's not necessarily played in the theatre, though theoretically could be.

Phil: No, and I, and I support the game.

Phil: And if I was at the counterterrorism command of the United Kingdom, unless it was putting UK citizens at harm, I wouldn't be calling for it to be banned.

Tom: That's why you're not the head of the UK counterterrorism.

Phil: Oh, crap.

Phil: I've talked my way out of another job.

Phil: And you're not getting hired by Tesla anytime soon either.

Phil: I could tell you that.

Tom: Probably not.

Tom: Before we move on from Patton, though, I just want to quote this brilliant section from Wikipedia, which I think really emphasizes the moving power of art and the sort of influence an anti-war film like Patton can have on people in a truly world-changing manner.

Tom: Nixon first viewed Patton with his family at a private screening in the White House Family Theatre on April th,

Tom: Nixon became obsessed with the film, repeatedly watching it with Henry Kissinger over the next month.

Tom: He screened it several times at the White House and during a cruise on the presidential yacht USS Sequoia in the Potomac River.

Tom: Kissinger's...

Tom: Sorry, Potomac River.

Tom: Kissinger sarcastically wrote of Nixon's insistence that he see the film on the cruise, it was the second time he had so honored me.

Tom: Inspiring as the film no doubt was, I managed to escape for an hour in the middle of it to prepare for the next day's NSC meeting.

Phil: I mean, good company.

Phil: Now look, once was enough for me.

Phil: I wasn't, I'm not about to pull it out on Christmas Day.

Phil: I said, guys, you gotta watch this movie.

Phil: Okay, so have we been, I don't think that your position has been struck here.

Phil: I'm going to restate my position.

Phil: One of them apparently is the government just pulling a lark, the Russian one saying, don't play this game.

Phil: Or if you do, play it, but use a VPN.

Phil: And the other is a country that is essentially banning free speech.

Tom: Yep, pretty much.

Tom: I would add that the game is also banned in Australia.

Phil: Oh, of course.

Tom: It's technically not banned, but it has not been classified because the developer could not afford to submit it for classification.

Tom: And the Australian government contacted Steam to let them know it has not been classified, which is essentially an indirect way of banning it, because there are numerous games on Steam that are not classified in Australia but are still available.

Phil: Why are they, exactly, why are they being so gutless about it?

Phil: Australia has usually been very happy to be banning games.

Phil: I mean...

Tom: Well, if it had been submitted for classification, no doubt it would have been refused classification.

Phil: To answer my question, banned or not banned?

Phil: Mark Echo's Contents Under Pressure.

Tom: Banned.

Phil: GTA

Tom: Was that banned at some point?

Tom: I think one version of it was.

Phil: It was banned at launch.

Tom: But then I think it was resubmitted.

Phil: Then you say banned.

Tom: I think they had to remove the hiring prostitutes for it to be classified.

Phil: Yeah, but you've got to say the banned part.

Tom: Banned.

Phil: We'll do that again.

Tom: Banned and unbanned.

Phil: You stepped on it.

Phil: Okay, now we'll do it properly.

Phil: Grand Theft Auto

Tom: Banned and then unbanned.

Phil: Banned and unbanned.

Phil: Rule of Rose.

Tom: Banned.

Phil: Yeah, you probably know the lists longer than I do.

Phil: So why, you know, why just do this chicken, you know, this is crazy.

Phil: All right, on to lighter topics.

Phil: And we like to gossip here at The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: Long-term PlayStation management legend leaves after years of loyal service.

Phil: Now, I wrote this story, but the source of it comes from PlayStation podcast.

Phil: You've heard of Shuhei Yoshida, certainly.

Tom: Yep, of course.

Phil: We've talked about him here.

Phil: He's a very likable fellow.

Phil: At the tender age of he was the first non-engineer to join Ken Kuroagi's PlayStation team when they were developing the original PlayStation.

Phil: So you can kind of do the math, he's

Phil: His first assignment was to convince Japanese developers and publishers that Sony was making a legitimate entry into video games.

Phil: And over the years, he's held several roles.

Phil: Ultimately, he became the head of PlayStation Studios, first in Japan and then globally.

Phil: And after some management reshuffles, he was ostensibly demoted to the amorphous role of head of independent development.

Tom: I'm just going to correct you that he's in fact years old.

Tom: Important correction.

Phil: So he went from being the head of PlayStation Studios, first in Japan, and then globally.

Phil: There was some management reshuffles a few years ago, and he was ostensibly demoted to the amorphous role of head of independent development.

Phil: And he's now withdrawing.

Phil: He says he'd like to stay in the industry, end quote.

Phil: As he announced his resignation, Sony apparently has a different view.

Phil: So my question to you is, given my slanted story, do you think he was, he jumped or he was pushed?

Tom: I think maybe a bit of both.

Phil: How so?

Tom: He saw what happened to, what was the one who died of cancer?

Tom: The white guy?

Tom: I don't think it was a white guy, the Japanese one.

Tom: Wasn't he at Sony?

Tom: Oh no, he was Nintendo, wasn't he?

Phil: No, Nintendo.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Yamachi, yeah.

Tom: I was going to say maybe the stress of being a Japanese CEO was getting to him.

Tom: He saw they were dying all around him and was thinking that was enough.

Tom: But if that wasn't Nintendo, then that theory doesn't fly.

Phil: No, no, he wasn't.

Phil: And well, I mean, the point is the guy is years old, right?

Tom: And the guy who was assassinated on a freeway was also Nintendo, wasn't he?

Phil: Oh yes.

Phil: Now, that was Gunpei Yokoi, the developer of the Game Boy, Super Metroid, and various other things.

Phil: He left the company to go and make the WonderSwan, and then mysteriously had to change a tire on a freeway and was accidentally hit by a car.

Tom: Accidentally.

Phil: Well, you know, accidents do happen.

Phil: So let's hope that Shuhei Yoshida doesn't get a flat tire on the freeway anytime soon.

Phil: I think that him saying I'd like to stay in the industry after he's been put in the closet office as the head of independent development.

Phil: Look, he oversaw that like some of the best years of PlayStation and definitely PlayStation and was a champion for innovation and small games.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And on top of that, just being a tremendously nice person.

Phil: I think he's been pushed out.

Phil: And I think him saying he'd like to stay in the industry is his way of saying, I'm not going of my own recognizance.

Phil: They gave me a boring, nothing to do job.

Phil: Speaking of Sony story just popped up today.

Phil: Sony is going to release a free to play version of Gran Turismo.

Phil: It's called My First Gran Turismo.

Phil: Credit for the story goes to Eurogamer as well.

Phil: Sony is releasing its first Gran Turismo, My First Gran Turismo this week, a new free to play game that pays tribute to the origin of the first game on the original PlayStation.

Phil: It's going to be available for both PlayStation and PlayStation from the th of December in honor of PlayStation's th anniversary.

Phil: The game is apparently going to aim to be approachable to all skill levels and even has support for PlayStation VR too.

Phil: This isn't about playing a game, it's about embarking on a personal driving journey, said Polyphony Digital President Kazunori Yamauchi.

Phil: Quote, we've made sure the experience is intuitive, allowing anyone to get behind the wheel and master the essentials.

Phil: By playing it, users will build confidence one lap at a time and steadily refine their driving skills.

Phil: End quote.

Phil: My first Gran Turismo features simplified versions of Gran Turismo 's modes, including race events, time trials, and music rally stages.

Phil: There are unique cars and iconic tracks from the series.

Phil: No news yet about DLC.

Phil: Thoughts?

Tom: Do you need PlayStation Plus to be able to play it?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I don't think so.

Phil: You'd have to have an online PlayStation profile.

Phil: The fact that they're providing it free to play in a celebration of their th anniversary, I think this is going to be something that they want to get out to everyone.

Phil: And I think it's a smart strategy on Sony's part because, you know, first of all, they're releasing it for PlayStation and

Phil: They're only giving you, quote, only giving you cars and making it more approachable, because I think a lot of people would be intimidated by Gran Turismo at this point.

Phil: I think it's a smart move.

Phil: I hope it works for them.

Tom: I would certainly play it.

Phil: Hey, we'll check out how big the download is.

Phil: I'd definitely be interested in at least downloading it for the PlayStation and checking it out.

Phil: I miss Gran Turismo tremendously from my life, from my gaming life.

Tom: I suspect it will be too big.

Phil: I suspect also.

Phil: And before we get into what we've been playing, just a quick one-liner really.

Phil: You remember that Nintendo Alarm-o we talked about, the clock that made a sound every time you moved?

Tom: Yes, I do.

Phil: Well, it's apparently not going to launch on time.

Tom: So, it hasn't made its launch date?

Phil: Well, it's available to Nintendo Switch Online subscribers in the US and Europe, but in the UK and Japan, it hasn't been released yet, and it hasn't been released to the wider public.

Phil: In Japan, currently, they're only offering it to NSO users via a lottery system.

Phil: So, they basically blame logistics, manufacturing, popularity of the thing and all the rest of it.

Phil: But the fact that you're shipping a clock that's not going to launch when you said it was going to...

Tom: I think it's interesting publicity to say the least.

Phil: It is.

Phil: It is.

Phil: A story just popped up today about half an hour ago.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So, you want to get into what we've been playing?

Phil: You want to lead off with anything interesting you've been doing?

Tom: Well, following on from controversial games, I thought I should mention that I've just started Black Ops recently.

Phil: People seem to like it.

Tom: Well, in terms of gameplay, I'm both pleasantly surprised and also somewhat disappointed.

Tom: I think the most interesting thing about it is that it's structurally quite different to previous Call of Duty games.

Tom: Instead of being a mission-to-mission campaign, after the first mission, you end up at your home base, where you can upgrade your weapons or how much army you can carry and how much health you have.

Tom: So, there's a sort of almost RPG-like element to it in terms of your character progression.

Tom: And from there, you can start missions as opposed to just going from mission to mission.

Tom: And you can also customize your home base as well.

Tom: So, it's structurally very different to previous Call of Duty games.

Tom: I think in terms of the mission design, so far I've only paid a few missions.

Tom: It's very much what you would expect of Call of Duty, where it is predominantly a Whack-a-Mole game.

Tom: The only real sort of difference in terms of it just being corridor to Whack-a-Mole to corridor is a remote-controlled explosive RC car that you can control.

Tom: But other than that, it's really very much bog-standard Call of Duty so far.

Phil: Of course, being a Black Ops game is developed by Treyarch with support from Raven Software.

Phil: I love that Raven is still around doing something.

Phil: I hope they get to make their own games again one day.

Phil: And available for PlayStation Windows, Xbox One and Series X and S.

Phil: I am surprised that they're still releasing this for PlayStation and Xbox One, but I probably shouldn't because it has a massive install base, at least the PlayStation does.

Phil: You played it on PC, I'm guessing?

Tom: Correct.

Tom: It's Trey on Game Pass.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And it's set in which is interesting.

Phil: So did you pick up on that?

Tom: The first one is The Gulf War, right?

Phil: Okay, yep.

Phil: The first time around.

Tom: Yeah, I believe it starts in The Gulf War.

Tom: That's the setting of the first mission.

Phil: Are you very far into it yet?

Tom: Not at all.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: But I know it's got Frank Woods in it.

Phil: He's the guy that's been in Blobs, I think, the whole time.

Phil: So, yeah.

Phil: Well, now, the whack-a-mole aspect of it.

Phil: Do you enjoy that or not enjoy that?

Tom: I think I enjoyed it in, I think the game that did the best is Call of Duty

Tom: And I don't think any other Call of Duty has done it as well as that to the point where it's worth playing for more than just a brief taste, I would say.

Phil: I think the probably one of the, I am a fan of Call of Duty.

Phil: I liked the last games that I played in the series that I could download were, or download updates for were World War II.

Phil: And it certainly had a whack-a-mole aspect to it.

Phil: I thought that was a good game.

Phil: And then also Ghosts was surprisingly good as well.

Phil: So...

Tom: Well, I think the thing with the whack-a-mole is to make it work, you need a very strong sense of spectacle, which I think is lacking here to a large degree.

Phil: So the role, the parts that you played, are they still at the base somewhere, or have you actually entered the war theater in...

Tom: Well, it begins, it begins in a combat situation in the Gulf War.

Tom: After that, you end up at your home base and then you start beginning missions on your own.

Phil: Okay, okay.

Phil: Well, that makes sense.

Phil: Because I think the overall story is something about you trying to prevent the CIA director from being replaced.

Tom: Well, of course, as in any American generic action story, you're working for an organization that is shitty because you've got a shitty boss and it's all his fucking fault and it's got nothing to do with anything else.

Tom: It's all just about this one fucking dickhead being an asshole.

Phil: Fair enough.

Tom: He needs to blame for everything.

Tom: Forget about what the thing you're working for is.

Tom: It's all that fucking dickhead's fault.

Phil: Are you going to score this game?

Tom: I think I may as well give it a score.

Phil: All right.

Tom: Given I'm probably not going to go back to it.

Phil: Break out the Dia Destiny and I'll get the mini-fig ready.

Tom: I would just add, I mean, we're talking about, and there were a lot of comments on that Eurogamer article mentioning, understanding why it might be banned because of how potentially offensive it is.

Tom: It's always worth pointing out that Call of Fucking Duty has existed for the past years or however long it's been.

Phil: This game is actually the st instalment of Call of Duty.

Phil: This is the th main entry in the Black Ops series.

Tom: And I assume it's called Black Ops because there's a black guy in the game.

Tom: Is that what the series is based on?

Tom: You play as the token black dude?

Phil: No.

Tom: Okay, so I misunderstood that.

Phil: Yeah, you're confusing it with the other video game, Black Cops.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, so that's a different one altogether.

Phil: Alright, Dye of Destiny ready?

Tom: The Dye of Destiny is ready.

Phil: Let it roll.

Tom: Gets out of

Phil: out of

Phil: And the mini fig says it gets a out of

Tom: So pretty close this time.

Phil: Pretty close.

Phil: Pretty closely aligned.

Phil: Have you been playing any other first person shooters of note that would be of interest to the audience?

Tom: I don't know if it would be of interest to the audience, but I've been playing another first person shooter of note that is of interest to me, and that is Stalker

Phil: Stalker would certainly be of interest.

Phil: We've talked about it extensively in the last episode.

Phil: So, and you said...

Tom: We probably talked about it more in the previous episode than we will in this episode.

Phil: We'll in this one.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: Alright.

Phil: So, I've heard it's pretty crap with a lot of graphical flaws and a lot of bugs and a lot of gameplay flaws and the gunplay is terrible, which I can go into more detail in.

Phil: But what are your impressions?

Tom: Well, so far, I'm almost an hour in and I'm yet to encounter a glitch.

Tom: So, if that's the standard we're going by, I think the hype around the glitchiness of it in terms of the series is very, very inaccurate.

Tom: But I am one gigabyte update in so far.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Let me give you one, a couple of the technical glitches and you tell me if they're true or false.

Phil: So basically, shadow geometry is apparently very poor.

Tom: So far, I mean, is that a glitch or just not great graphic design?

Phil: Shadow geometry, I'd say that's...

Phil: No, no, I'm talking about glitch.

Phil: I'm talking about rush job, like poor, just poor job, basically.

Phil: I'm not talking about glitches.

Phil: I'm just talking about this could have been done better.

Tom: Well, the start of the game is very dark.

Tom: So it's, I think the shadows, you don't see particularly well anyway.

Tom: So at this stage, I'm going to say no comment.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Second of all, like one of the main criticisms that were drawn out as an example of this has been rushed, you've got a fire in the woods, you know, people are sitting around it, and you've got a graphical, you know, glow effect on everything in the environment, except for the faces of the people, because it's too complicated to do that.

Tom: I'm yet to get to a famous campfire scene, unfortunately.

Phil: From gameplay perspective, people say that there are just bullet sponges, that unlike in most modern games, if you shoot someone in the knee, they don't react to being shot in the knee, they just keep taking bullets.

Phil: And harder enemies just take more bullets to kill than less harder enemies.

Tom: Well, I think we shouldn't refer to modern games here, we should refer to Stalker, because Stalker, on the hardest difficulty setting, had essentially one-shot kills for enemies.

Tom: Particularly, it was a headshot, which was rare in the era, and one of the things that made it stand out.

Tom: And so far, the humanoid, human enemies have taken, the non-mutated human enemies have taken a few shots to kill, which I think is a little disappointing, as I'm playing it on the hardest difficulty setting.

Phil: And finally, the criticism I've heard is that the gunplay isn't good.

Tom: Well, that's the other thing.

Tom: The gunplay feels very much like a standard sort of first-person shooter.

Tom: There's nothing that seems to stand out about it so far, albeit I'm only one proper firefighter into the game so far.

Phil: Okay, so with those...

Phil: Those are the common concerns that have been put out there.

Phil: So with those concerns addressed, I'll just let you talk freeform about the game.

Tom: Well, some of those concerns, I think, seem potentially valid, but I think it's too early for me to give a proper opinion on it.

Tom: Outside of that, I think the other biggest disappointment for me was the AI., which is epitomized in the first proper firefight I had.

Tom: Essentially, there's this wall and a single doorway, which leads into an open field on the other side, and you're basically in an open field, and there's this single doorway through which you can access it.

Tom: In the field on the other side, there's a couple of boulders that the enemies can use as cover, and they generally don't.

Tom: Two of them did, one of them just continued wandering around, even when they'd been alerted to my presence.

Tom: Additionally, if I just sat there in the doorway, waiting for them to walk up to me and get killed, they all did it.

Tom: This would not have occurred with the AI of the original stalker at all.

Phil: That's terrible.

Phil: That is really terrible, because that's not stalker at all.

Phil: That tells me that something's wrong.

Tom: That's clearly, I think, that's the thing that stood out to me the most and was the least promising thing so far.

Phil: That's really, really disappointing.

Tom: And I think it will be the hardest thing so far to fix with mods.

Tom: Fixing things like shadows and reflections and ballistics all are pretty easy to alter with mods.

Tom: I think AI is a little bit more difficult.

Tom: But still potentially possible.

Phil: Yeah, and fundamental as well.

Phil: So you haven't got that far into the story.

Phil: Tell me about the audio.

Tom: I think aesthetically so far it has been pretty good.

Tom: I think I haven't noticed any major issues with shadows and things like that.

Tom: It's certainly not a polished looking game like a lot of first person shooters of the current day are.

Tom: But so far, atmosphere wise, the non-polished aspect of it adds to the character and atmosphere so far.

Tom: It's got a very rich feeling to it.

Tom: When you're out in the dark in the middle of a field, you definitely feel the oppressive nature of the environment you're in, and you very much feel like you need to get to a form of shelter as quickly as possible when you're out exploring in a dangerous environment.

Tom: So I think aesthetically, I don't have too much to complain about so far.

Phil: I'm surprised that you said it's non-Polish when it's been developed in Poland.

Phil: That's strange to me.

Tom: It's Ukrainian, isn't it?

Phil: Well, it is Ukrainian, but they had to move to Poland, so you'd think it'd be very Polish.

Phil: Now, the darkness thing, I have heard people talk about that.

Phil: So that to me sounds like a unique and interesting introduction.

Tom: I think the original Stalker began in the darkness as well.

Tom: The opening was quite similar to the original Stalker, where you're being transported somewhere via truck, and you end up in a field in the middle of nowhere.

Phil: Yeah, but with HDR capabilities these days of graphic cards and other such things, they say that NVIDIA is going to start, they're going to announce the series at CES this year.

Phil: I think I've got a maybe.

Phil: What have you got?

Phil: You're rocking a aren't you?

Tom: I've got a Super.

Phil: ?

Phil: Will you explain it to me?

Tom: So that's, I think, two generations ago now.

Tom: Really?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Man, okay.

Phil: You, are you already do for an upgrade?

Tom: Not at p, no.

Phil: Okay, all right.

Phil: Fair enough.

Tom: I did notice some small amount of slow down with this on epic settings and quality DLSS, but so far, maybe it'll be an issue with bigger firefights.

Tom: I'm gonna have to go over the settings, but so far it's like dropping to maybe in the worst possible scenario.

Phil: How many years has it been since you did your build?

Tom: I have no idea, but it must be a long time by now.

Phil: Well, that blows my mind, because I'm always like, oh, yeah, Tom's definitely rocking a

Phil: He's got a better reap than me.

Tom: What have you got again?

Phil: I think I'm on

Tom: So I might, because these cards are not very powerful.

Tom: So they're not necessarily more powerful than the higher numbers in previous series.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: Well, that's disappointing.

Phil: I'm not sure it's but I'm certainly happy with what I've got.

Phil: And yeah, at least everything else in the system is upgradable.

Phil: So if I do want to upgrade my video cut, I can do so.

Phil: So too early for scores?

Tom: I think definitely too early for scores.

Phil: Definitely too early.

Tom: This one I will be continuing to play.

Tom: So we'll save the die of destiny for a future date.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Very good.

Phil: One thing I've been playing, quote, is an application for the PC called LaunchBox.

Phil: Have you heard about this?

Tom: No, I haven't.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, LaunchBox is a...

Phil: It's basically an application that you install that is like...

Phil: That scrapes your computer for all your video game content and then delivers it in a library, right?

Phil: So, it'll go and find all your Steam games, it'll find all your GOG games, it'll find all your Epic games, your Amazon games and everything, and present them in a unified library, so that you see all the boxes, all the hypertext or whatever it's called.

Phil: It's not hypertext.

Phil: All the metadata, all the metadata of the game, and basically, in a very attractive way, it has a free version, which has been suitable for me up till now, but if you buy the full version, it's very affordable.

Phil: I think it's under bucks.

Phil: And it's a great way to access your games, because you're like, you know, some games, you typically, when you open your computer, you turn on Steam, and if you want to play a game, and that's where you go, but like you've got a complete library and all these other storefronts, and it unifies them, brings them all together in a fantastic way.

Phil: It provides a lot more metadata than Steam and any other platform, and it's absolutely fantastic.

Phil: So it's called LaunchBox.

Phil: You can go to the website, launchboxapp.com.

Phil: I thoroughly recommend it.

Phil: It is a fantastic program.

Tom: I'll definitely have to try that myself.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, it's free.

Phil: You got nothing to risk.

Phil: And yeah, like I said, I just have to actually go and buy it.

Phil: It's not because I don't want it.

Phil: I just actually go buy the full version because you get so many more features with that as well.

Phil: Again, I've been playing.

Phil: I picked up a few games.

Tom: I will just add, I believe I have done the research.

Tom: I think I built this PC in

Phil: Five years, just like that.

Tom: So at only five years old, I would hope that I would not be upgrading yet.

Phil: What do you think, like seven?

Tom: I like to aim for eight to ten years.

Phil: Yeah, I think I've learned a lesson from my holding officer too long the last time.

Phil: I'm gonna go seven from now on.

Phil: And probably not go the update the graphic card route.

Phil: I'll just get a whole new thing because it has been such a breath of fresh air.

Phil: Having a PC that I can turn on, dedicated to gaming, hooked up to a TV.

Phil: It's still booting, like even though I've added lots, I haven't had lots, it's a dedicated gaming machine, so it hasn't got anything on it other than games.

Phil: And you'd think that it would start to slow down in terms of its boot, but it's still booting like faster, like I'm gonna say seven times faster than an Xbox One.

Phil: And, you know, which is fantastic.

Phil: It makes it really accessible.

Tom: Well, if we do the maths, I think it was about $for everything related to this PC.

Phil: It's pretty good.

Tom: So if it was seven years, that would be $a year.

Tom: I think that's not too egregious.

Phil: No, that's fine.

Phil: I think I lucked out with my PC, correct me if I'm wrong, at like $or something like that.

Tom: All thanks to me.

Phil: All thanks to you.

Phil: And I'm about to drop a grand on a Steam Deck.

Phil: But, and then regret it.

Phil: It is funny how the mind works because I'm like, I have no problem dropping a grand on a Steam Deck, but I'm not going to buy a, what does a PlayStation cost down here?

Tom: Like eight, maybe $$?

Phil: No, it's like eight or nine, eight or bucks.

Phil: I guess the difference is all the content is...

Tom: apparently.

Tom: That's for the disc version.

Phil: And for $more, I'm getting all my games quote for free because I've already bought them, you know.

Phil: So, another game that I recently bought is Bellatro.

Phil: I thought I might talk about that and give you a break for a while.

Phil: This is developed by a solo developer.

Phil: He got help with the music.

Phil: And we talked about it last time around.

Phil: We talked about how people who promote it say, you know, it's a rogue-like deck-building game, just like Slay the Spire, and it's poker-themed, but hey, you don't have to know anything about poker to play it.

Phil: Now, do you know what Bellatro, what the origin of that name is?

Phil: It sounds sort of Spanish, doesn't it?

Tom: Or Italian.

Phil: Or Italian.

Phil: It is, in fact, Italian.

Phil: In ancient Rome, Bellatro was a professional jester, or buffoon, which is, I guess we could have called this the Bellatro podcast, except we're not professionals, we're not getting paid to do it.

Tom: So it's alluding to the Joker card?

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: And so I downloaded it.

Phil: It is a tiny download and a tiny install, and it's on every absolutely everything right now.

Phil: And in the game, you play your poker hand to score points to defeat bosses that are called blinds, while improving your deck and purchasing Joker cards with a variety of effects, basically multipliers.

Phil: So it looks like the perfect, exploitative, free to play, but then you've got to buy a whole bunch of cards afterwards, except all the cards are free.

Phil: Once you bought it, you bought it.

Phil: And the guy actually has said in his will that after he dies, this game cannot be sold to an entity that will introduce any DLC, because it is so clearly a dopamine-mining game, because you can play this, yes, you can play this and not know anything about poker, and quickly pick up what's a good hand, what's not.

Phil: And the dopamine feed is...

<v SPEAKER_>Can you though?

Phil: No, you can't.

Tom: Because I believe you posted on the VG Press, you cannot.

Phil: You cannot.

Phil: You absolutely cannot.

Phil: This is a poker-themed game where you need to know poker hands.

Phil: And I don't know any poker hands, okay?

Phil: I've played poker a few times in my life, and with no knowledge of poker, I have won every single time, okay?

Phil: Because just by psychology, because I don't know what I'm doing, so I just basically hold out, you know?

Phil: And people are like, well, this guy's got beginner's luck, he's got good cards, you know?

Phil: And I've won, you know?

Phil: Now, it's only happened three times.

Phil: I've only won, like, just over $playing casual poker games.

Phil: Because you can't play that ruse forever.

Phil: At a certain point, you've got to learn how to play the game.

Phil: But the game does have a list at the very start of like eight different things describing different poker hands.

Phil: And if you can get two of a kind and three of a kind and all this other stuff, you slowly start to figure it out.

Phil: And it is a little bit addictive.

Phil: If you actually knew something about poker, I think it would be highly addictive.

Phil: So there's a lot of, you know, it's coming up for game of the year and all this sort of thing.

Phil: And I can see it, but I haven't quite figured out all the nuances of it.

Phil: I can see that it is really good at what it is.

Phil: And it is, and that's the best thing.

Phil: That is the best and only thing I can say.

Phil: Like the person who made this completely understood what they're doing and they've accomplished it at an extremely high level.

Phil: They've made a very simple thing in its appearance, but it's very complex, but it understands exactly the player mentality, human psychology, dopamine, the whole thing.

Phil: God help us if this person decides to make a game.

Phil: Like, if this dude made Tetris and it had DLC that was built into it, God help us all.

Phil: But apparently, you know, based on his actions with his will, he has no intention of using whatever evil knowledge he has of the human psyche for a commercial game.

Tom: What if this is his poker hand ruse and he's bluffing?

Phil: Yeah, it could be.

Phil: He could release another game.

Phil: And you know what?

Phil: I wouldn't be...

Phil: If someone told me, hey, guess what?

Phil: This guy developed Peggle.

Phil: I'd be like, yeah, yeah, okay.

Phil: If this is a sequel to Peggle, I'm good on him, you know.

Phil: So that's what I've been playing, Launchbox and Bellatro.

Phil: Have you been playing anything else?

Tom: Can I just say on Bellatro and poker, I can't think of anything in the modern world that is more banal and less interesting than poker.

Tom: I remember the poker craze on the internet where people were just gushing about watching these fucking smoking alcoholics playing this shitty card game, pulling silly faces as if this was some profound fucking thing.

Tom: And in the millions of words that were written about it, the hours spoken on podcasts, not a single person could in any way articulate why this wasn't the most boring bullshit ever committed to screen.

Tom: Not a single one.

Tom: And some of these people were people who could be eloquent on other subject matters.

Tom: But when it came to this shit, they could not.

Tom: This is surely some sort of mutual mass delusion that was shared a few years ago, right?

Phil: A few years ago?

Phil: Well, let me tell you my personal experience with watching poker, right?

Phil: So, this is, I used to watch like Texas Hold'em competitions on TV, and I watched a lot of it.

Phil: And somehow, poker is still incomprehensible.

Phil: And I think it was probably personality based.

Phil: I think there's a lot of wrestler type, you know, corollaries there.

Phil: And that's got to be it, right?

Tom: So maybe none of these people who claimed to love it so much understood anything about it.

Tom: So they just had to pretend that it was great.

Phil: The only reason I used to watch it was the same reason I occasionally watched the home shopping channel or something like that.

Phil: Like in Australia, we have a very poor version of the home shopping channel.

Phil: But the home shopping channel or the knife channel or something like that of American programming, which you can watch live on YouTube.

Phil: I just find it fascinating.

Phil: I just find it fascinating.

Phil: It's like, I love watching people trying to manipulate dumb people.

Phil: And I can go, oh, well, aren't you being manipulated because you're watching this and you're compelled to watch it?

Phil: Okay, sure.

Phil: I guess.

Phil: I guess it's like bird watching, but for humans.

Phil: Okay, so birds in and of themselves are not, you know, compelling animals.

Phil: But there are people who love watching birds because of their behavior.

Phil: Okay, now I can identify several birds, probably up to different kinds of birds, and I can describe their behavior, but I'm not like hooked on it, right?

Phil: I'm not going to stop and watch a TV show about birds.

Phil: But everyone can understand observing human behavior.

Phil: And I think if you were watching poker on TV, you're like, is this guy going to get over?

Phil: Is that guy going to get over?

Phil: Oh, look at this guy.

Phil: He's an idiot.

Phil: He doesn't know what he's doing.

Phil: Oh, this guy's on tilt.

Phil: And I think, you know, the same is sort of a soap opera type thing as well, I guess, because, you know, and there's also the money component.

Phil: Oh, wow, this guy outsmarted that guy and look at all the money he made.

Phil: You know, yeah.

Phil: So what do you think about my feeble description there?

Tom: I think that people don't write essays about the profundity of the home shopping channel.

Phil: I think people should.

Phil: Have you ever watched the American home shopping channel?

Tom: I don't think I've seen the American one.

Tom: I've seen the Australian version.

Phil: Forget the Australian one.

Phil: The American one is pasted.

Tom: The Australian one plays clips from the American advertising.

Phil: No, just give up.

Tom: What about the knife guy?

Tom: I forgot what sort of knife it was, but he was American.

Tom: He was cutting tomatoes.

Phil: No, no, I'm talking about collectible knives, knives that can do the business.

Phil: This isn't about a knife that can cut celery.

Phil: You know, but anyway...

Tom: I thought about a knife that can cut...

Phil: Yeah, throats.

Phil: So this home shopping channel in the US is fantastically paced, acted.

Phil: It's full of coked up people at three o'clock in the morning, trying to say...

Tom: It's the guy who could filet the filet.

Tom: That's the thing I'm thinking of.

<v SPEAKER_>No, that's not...

<v SPEAKER_>Are you familiar with that?

Phil: Yeah, I am familiar.

Phil: That's not what I'm talking about.

Tom: That's American though, because he says filet.

Tom: So that's definitely American.

Phil: What do you guys say?

Tom: Filet.

Phil: Oh, Jesus.

Phil: Ah, jeez.

Phil: Why'd you have to say that, Homer?

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Have you been playing a game?

Tom: No, we're not moving on from poker yet.

Tom: What?

Tom: Because my theory isn't finished here.

Phil: Alright, you're going to declare G-hard on poker, apparently.

Tom: Yeah, but I think the reason, perhaps the reason for this mass delusion, is it's inserted into so many sitcoms and soap operas in America.

Tom: It's the default, here's we're going to get a bunch of characters to sit around doing nothing as a filler segment, so that we can fill up some space with a shot of these people drinking and playing poker.

Tom: For no other reason that we haven't come up with enough stuff to fill up the rest of the episode with anything meaningful.

Phil: Well, what's a highfalutin intellectual like you watching American sitcoms for?

Phil: That's not for you.

Phil: And soap operas?

Phil: What soap opera is still on?

Phil: Come on!

Tom: But, I mean, is that not the case?

Tom: That's the role of poker in TV shows, isn't it?

Phil: Ah, poker in TV shows.

Phil: I think it's a matching of wits.

Tom: But it's not.

Tom: Because if they have something like that, like take a Stranger Things D&D segments, and I'm not a fan of Stranger Things, but I believe you are.

Tom: But I think it's an equivalent sort of thing here, where you get a bunch of characters together to do something together.

Tom: In the case of Stranger Things, they sort of tie it to the broader theme of the show or whatever's happening in the episode, right?

Phil: No, it's pivotal.

Phil: The whole thing happens because they're playing a game that unlocks this mythical world in real life.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: Whereas with the poker in TV shows, that isn't the case.

Phil: Strangely enough, by playing poker, they don't unlock some mythical demonic poker world.

Tom: But they should be unlocking something about the characters, right?

Phil: Yeah, in a sitcom?

Tom: It should be a character developing exercise.

Phil: Oh, especially in these American sitcoms and soap operas.

Phil: You so adore.

Tom: Correct.

Tom: But for the most part, it's literally just filler.

Tom: And if it's not filler, they will just go to dialogue in the game that has nothing to do with how the game is unfolding.

Phil: Okay, so let me, literary genius, Tom Towers, explain to me what part of soap opera isn't filler.

Phil: Have you ever watched Young and the Restless or Days in Your Lives?

Phil: Or Bold and the Beautiful?

Phil: Every...

Phil: I love watching them as well, or at least I used to when I was a kid.

Phil: Every story basically progresses like one millimeter.

Phil: Like, every hour of a show progresses a story one millimeter.

Phil: Like, it doesn't...

Tom: So to have filler in something that progresses one millimeter is even worse, is it not?

Phil: Well, the filler is how they get through minutes and not relay any story.

Tom: But forget about soap operas, because that's a fair point, right?

Tom: But my point still stands though, right?

Tom: We've got this mass delusion that has been programmed into people through poker being a part of American sitcoms and soap operas.

Tom: So that when they're watching a show that is equally brain dead and banal and uninteresting, where equally nothing happens, they're able to watch it and produce these reams of articles, supposedly explaining their fascination with these endlessly profound and interesting poker matches, yet they're not actually able to articulate why they find it interesting.

Tom: So my point stands, I was saying, that's part of the programming that has led to poker being something people can watch on TV.

Phil: Your point is stated, I will definitely agree with that.

Phil: I don't know if your point stands.

Phil: I'm going to say that watching someone play poker is an examination of the human experience I didn't get any of that from anything anyone has said about poker on TV.

Phil: Well, that's because they're not as eloquent as I, Mr.

Phil: Phil Fogg.

Tom: And I'm going to add further to this point, just to demonstrate that this isn't some half-witted, off-the-cuff improvised theory.

Tom: I know where this all came from.

Phil: Oh, you do?

Tom: Do you know what the origin of poker as dramatic filler is, in the American dramatic tradition?

Tom: Where does it come from?

Phil: Mark Twain?

Tom: No.

Phil: That's my only guess.

Tom: No, it comes from a streetcar named Desire.

Phil: Okay, which I have not observed, because it looked like crap.

Tom: It's better than Bellatro.

Tom: I'll say that much.

Tom: You haven't played it!

<v SPEAKER_>I don't need to play it.

<v SPEAKER_>That's what I've learned from this whole poker-mass delusion.

Tom: I do not need to play Bellatro.

Phil: What do the intellectuals always say about something that they want to look down on?

Phil: I don't need to watch The Simpsons.

Phil: I know it's inferior.

Phil: I don't need to play Bellatro.

<v SPEAKER_>I've watched a streetcar named Desire.

Phil: Yeah, where's a video game adaption of that, by the way?

Tom: I think there isn't.

Phil: Okay, we are still talking about it.

Tom: Unfortunately.

Phil: We are still talking about it.

Tom: Maybe Crazy Taxi?

Phil: Crazy Taxi?

Tom: That's got streetcars in it.

Phil: We are still talking about video games.

Tom: Are we going to roll a dive destiny for a streetcar named Desire?

Phil: Well, I haven't played it yet.

Phil: And you're not going to make me play it.

Tom: If you read a streetcar named Desire, I will play Bellatro.

Phil: Okay, have you watched Taxi Driver with Al Pacino?

Tom: Yes, I have.

Phil: Have you watched Dog Days Afternoon with Al Pacino?

Tom: Unfortunately not.

Phil: Watch it.

Phil: Have you watched Kings of Comedy or King of Comedy?

Tom: No, I haven't.

Phil: Oh, you got to see that.

Phil: That's a good one.

Phil: It's a good little couplet.

Phil: If you watch King of Comedy and Dog Days Afternoon.

Phil: Really good.

Phil: I will not score Bellatro.

Phil: I can score...

Tom: Can you score Poker on TV?

Phil: What was your proposition?

Phil: Street Card Name Desire?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Okay, go ahead.

Tom: If you watch the film or read the book, I will play Bellatro.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: And you will return to the topic.

Phil: Okay, we'll return to the topic then with no score.

Phil: Now, I know another game you've been playing is a diamond in the rough called Crimson Diamond, developed by a solo developer, Julie Minamata, which sounds Japanese, but I've never heard Minamata.

Tom: I believe she's Canadian.

Phil: Anyway, it's available on Mac and Windows, just released in August.

Phil: It's an adventure game, a single player, and it's a mystery adventure game that features a text parser requiring players to solve a mystery through inputting instructions.

Phil: Graphically, it has an EGA color palette.

Phil: Now, most people won't know what that looks like, but it's basically like a, in between a and a probably a actually, processor.

Phil: And it's inspired by games like The Colonel's Bequest.

Phil: The reception of the game has been mostly positive, or positive actually, completely, with reviewers placing it as a strong homage to games of the late s.

Phil: But saying that some puzzle solutions could be too challenging, which I say, how can you say, this is a great homage to games of the late s, but then say, oh, but that's a bad thing because the puzzles are too challenging.

Phil: I mean, they're one and the same.

Tom: I think the difficulty of the puzzles isn't even close to what you would expect from that era of adventure game.

Phil: The game again is called Crimson Diamond.

Phil: So what's your impressions of it?

Tom: I was disappointed that it had nothing to do with Blood Diamonds, which I thought might have been an illusion of the title, but it was not.

Phil: So is it about the theft of a Ruby type diamond?

Tom: No.

Tom: So you're playing as a, it says in the story description, sorry, game description that it's an amateur geologist, but I don't know if she was an amateur or not, given that she was, it depends on how you define amateur.

Tom: I think if you read amateur geologist, the thing you have in mind is someone who is a hobbyist, right?

Phil: Someone who's not getting paid for a great passion they have.

Phil: They may have more knowledge than a professional, they're just not getting paid for it.

Tom: So you think it comes down to money.

Tom: I was thinking to feel like geology, where there isn't necessarily a huge amount of paid work going around.

Tom: I'll be thinking more along the lines of hobbyist as opposed to someone who might be working with the professionalized or semi-professionalized geologist scene.

Tom: Yeah, that would be my interpretation.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, that's a good interpretation.

Tom: But it begins with her being involved in a university geology program, and she gets sent off to investigate the possible discovery of diamonds at a remote Canadian setting.

Tom: And she travels by train.

Tom: On the train, someone steals her luggage, and they end up stranded at this lodge in the middle of nowhere where there are possibly diamonds, because the bridge is mysteriously destroyed.

Tom: And that's essentially the beginning of the game and the setting.

Tom: And it's set during, I think, at the beginning or the lead up to the First World War.

Tom: So it's an interesting setting.

Tom: And I found, I think, the sense of humour was probably a highlight of the game, because it is very deadpan, and the jokes are not really played up.

Tom: I assume they're intentional, because there is a whimsical feeling to a lot of the game play, sorry, a lot of the story.

Tom: But for example, once you're in the lodge, you immediately just start eavesdropping on everyone for seemingly no reason, and investigating everything in a very obnoxious and forthright manner.

Tom: Go on.

Phil: Yeah, so you play as a female protagonist, is essentially listening in to things and trying to figure out clues to solve the mystery.

Tom: Yep, exactly.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Before a mystery has even really developed.

Tom: So just the moment you end up in the lodge, and nothing suspicious other than your luggage having been stolen on the train, not at the lodge, you're already enticed to begin eavesdropping on people.

Phil: How does this compare and contrast with the video game that you talked about earlier this year, the one where you're a hotel maid that likes snooping through people's personal possessions, and then comes across a strange mystery?

Tom: I think I, in terms of gameplay, I definitely enjoyed this game more.

Tom: I think there were things about the narrative of the other game that were interesting, but probably I enjoyed the narrative in this one as well, just because of how I think more weird and silly it was here.

Phil: It seems whimsical.

Tom: Absolutely.

Phil: Based on the graphics, you don't remember the name of the hotel-made snooping game though, do you?

Tom: I think, is it This Bed We Made?

Phil: This Bed We Made is exactly the name of it.

Phil: So it's similar in some ways.

Phil: I did say compare and contrast.

Tom: It's similar in that you're playing a nosy female protagonist in a place where people stay.

Phil: Okay, so you're into nosy female protagonists.

Tom: Depends on the type of nose.

Tom: Roman nose, maybe.

Phil: Okay, well, the nose really depends on the nose.

Phil: Seems sort of pronounced and like beak-like in this game, I'd say.

Tom: Well, who doesn't love a beaky nose?

Phil: Yeah, well, you know, I think it's kind of cute.

Phil: So it's a pert little beaky nose that this character has.

Tom: And one of the characters in the game is a bird watcher.

Tom: I don't know if that's a reference or not.

Phil: Oh, a twitcher.

Phil: Okay, so how far into this game are you?

Tom: I've completed it.

Phil: Oh, really?

Phil: Now, again, I'm always interested in the audio.

Phil: It's got EGA-based graphics.

Phil: Do they mix it up and have, like, you know, modern musical or sound effect capabilities?

Tom: The music is very synth-heavy and definitely very much of the era.

Phil: Oh, really?

Tom: Or at least referencing it.

Tom: I mean, it's more complex in terms of, I think, the number of notes and things you could use in the era.

Tom: There's certainly some semi-orchestral feeling moments, but it's all very synth-heavy.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, I lived through these times, so I can tell you in the EGA era, there was no sound cards yet.

Phil: Okay?

Phil: So there was no sound blasters or anything else.

Phil: So you were limited to beeps and white noise, and that sort of thing.

Phil: So, yeah, obviously they're using modern music that evokes an earlier age, but not...

Phil: Like, seriously, man, it was just beeps and boops back then.

Phil: So...

Tom: Now, this is definitely more modern than that.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Anything else to say on it before you give it a score?

Tom: Well, we should say the gameplay, of course, is not point-and-click, it is text-based.

Tom: You do move around with the mouse, but if you want the protagonist to do anything, you've got to type out a command for her, which she will then follow.

Tom: And this works, for the most part, pretty well.

Tom: There were a few occasions where it does not work, though.

Phil: So, with this text parser, you could say, go to the window.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And, like, if a window was there...

Tom: What you would normally do is you would move to the window and say, look at window.

Tom: Or you could just type, look at window, and if there's only one window, then she'll go and look at it.

Tom: But if there's two windows, you need to write down which one to go and look at, or move close to the one you want her to look at.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, if you wrote, be mean to male character...

Tom: Sorry, what was that?

Phil: Be mean to...

Phil: If you were to...

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: Be mean to main character.

Tom: I think with that command, she would probably say she wouldn't do it.

Phil: Let me just do that again.

Phil: So, if you were to say, be mean to male character, or be kind to female character, would anything happen?

Tom: It will probably say that isn't an acceptable command.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And obviously, you're not going to say...

Phil: Like in these adventure games of the era, you could say, pick up stick.

Phil: And it would say, you can't pick up stick, or you have stick.

Phil: Right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Is that...

Phil: I don't think this game would do that sort of thing though, would it?

Tom: Yep, it does.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: So, give us an example.

Tom: So, if you want to open, say...

Tom: No, that's not an example.

Tom: Let's say, if you do want to pick up something, right?

Tom: That there's no reason for the character to pick up, in theory, then it will say, there's no reason for you to pick that up or something on those lines.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, it's like how the old games used to do it.

Tom: Yep, exactly.

Tom: All right.

Phil: Anything else for this one?

Tom: Well, just as I was saying, so, for the most part, that works very well, but there are a few instances I came across where it does not work as it should.

Tom: So, at one point, you're investigating a body, and they're wearing some clothes.

Tom: And I told the character to look in the character's pockets.

Tom: So, she looks in the pockets, doesn't comment on anything being in there.

Tom: If you tell her to look at the clothes, it comments that there's keys in the pocket.

Tom: But if you look at the pockets, there are no keys in there, apparently.

Phil: Poor.

Tom: So, that's only a few occasions.

Tom: For the majority of the time, it all works as you would expect to.

Tom: But the few occasions where it doesn't is very frustrating.

Phil: Well, that's adventure games, really, isn't it?

Phil: I mean, there are limitations to what they can do, but...

Tom: I think adventure games don't necessarily have issues like that.

Tom: And I think a text password doesn't have an issue like that either.

Tom: I think you can get around that.

Tom: I think in adventure games as well, it's less frustrating because if you, in most of them these days anyway, if you right click on something, it will give you a list of all the options indicating how you can interact with something.

Tom: So even if the logical thing doesn't actually work as it should, you can just randomly go through all of them.

Tom: Whereas here, you have to go on a specific thing which is actually logical, but you have to produce that yourself as opposed to finding it through a limited number of options available to you.

Phil: How long did it take to finish this game?

Tom: Not too long, maybe about four or five hours.

Phil: Oh, okay, it's available on Steam, I'm assuming.

Tom: Correct, I think it is $new.

Phil: Okay, so the name of the game is Crimson Diamond.

Phil: This week...

Tom: We're not going to move on from it yet.

Tom: Oh.

Tom: No, you just want to get rid of this game.

Tom: I can feel it.

Phil: Oh, you don't seem particularly, you know, you don't have, you know, like you're saying mostly favorable things about it, but it doesn't seem particularly compelling.

Phil: Like I don't, like sometimes you talk about a game, I'm like, okay, I've got to go play it.

Phil: I don't care what it costs.

Phil: I got to go do it.

Phil: You don't seem to be particularly compelling on this game for whatever reason.

Tom: Well, maybe we need to continue because I might not be at the more compelling parts of it yet.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: So I think the other thing that stands out about it is the use of the setting.

Tom: As I've said, it's set in the lead up to the first world war and it weaves in themes from the looming coming war into the story in, I think, a satisfying way that adds a little bit more interest to it.

Tom: The story, as I said, is at times often very humorous but it's also reasonably serious and mature in its themes and really captures the feeling of something like Agatha Christie or it also brings to mind other games like The Last Express that made interesting use of a similar setting.

Tom: And I think overall, if you enjoy adventure games, it ends up being, once you get used to how the interface works and perhaps that sometimes it's not going to work as it should, if you can get over that, I think it ends up being a really engrossing new modern take on a text-passer adventure game.

Tom: My experience in playing text-based ones, they usually have issues in terms of consistency.

Tom: But I have less experience with them than I do point-and-click adventure games.

Tom: So maybe in terms of old ones, that was an issue with me.

Tom: In this case, I can say that it's definitely an issue with the game.

Tom: But as I said, it's only in a few particular moments.

Tom: But I actually enjoyed it a lot.

Tom: The other thing that stands out about it as well is the charmingness of the graphics.

Tom: When it's zoomed out, the animation of the characters is very rudimentary, but they all have their own unique way of moving, and the spirit of the character is captured.

Tom: When it zooms in with more detailed portraits of the character, you get more detail and you get more expressions of the characters, which greatly add to the filling of the dialogue as you're reading it, but it manages in the zoomed out sections to maintain the spirit of the character, which I think is to the credit of the developer, who I believe also did the artwork for the game as well.

Phil: Yeah, I can tell from the screen shots of it, this was lovingly attended to.

Phil: It's got a comical and thoughtful depiction.

Phil: It's really...

Phil: The artist that did this understands human faces certainly in a very good way.

Tom: So was that a little bit more enthused?

Phil: Yeah, certainly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I'm still hanging up on the frustration level, though.

Phil: Like, is this game...

Phil: Is it frustrating or is it, you know, just a couple of little hitches along the way?

Tom: I would say it's a couple of little hitches along the way.

Tom: The one other interesting thing about it, I will add, is at the end of the game, which I thought was a great way to end a detective story, you're interviewed by the police, and you also have an internal monologue interview, where you've got to answer a series of questions based on your investigations as to what you've discovered, which affects how the game ends, which I thought was a great touch.

Tom: My only criticism of it was, there's ways to figure out what's going on without doing the required gameplay thing to allow you to answer the question correctly, which I thought was questionable.

Tom: I think even if you didn't do the correct thing in terms of gameplay that triggered you to be able to answer the question correctly, the game should have the faith in you that you figured this out on your own through the other clues that were already there without needing to do that for it to accept your correct answer as being correct.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, I can see how that would be a challenge.

Tom: But, overall, I think that was a great touch, and I think it makes it stand out as well from a lot of crime fiction-inspired detective adventure games that I've played.

Phil: One thing that interests me is how does a game like this, developed by a single developer in Canada, how does this rise to discoverability?

Phil: How do you know about it?

Phil: How do people know about it?

Phil: How has this game got a Wikipedia page?

Phil: You know?

Tom: I know about it because a friend told me about it.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So something is happening.

Tom: And I bought it for him for his birthday and subsequently played it on his Steam account.

Phil: Very good.

Phil: So by buying it for him, you mean?

Tom: He hasn't yet to play it.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So you bought it for yourself.

Phil: He has no interest in it.

Phil: Is there anything less fulfilling that when you gift a game to someone on Steam and they never actually play it, or even the knowledge that you sent them to them?

Phil: I've gifted kind words.

Tom: It depends on if you play it yourself or not.

Phil: I've gifted kind words of great video game to several people.

Phil: And you know, some people never actually like, well, they never get back to you.

Phil: Like you'd think you go, oh, hey, thanks, man.

Tom: But you think that at least say thanks.

Phil: I know.

Phil: And well, Gargan...

Tom: Do you want to name and shame?

Phil: No, I don't.

Phil: I don't.

Phil: No.

Tom: Well, you just did with one at least.

Tom: Gargan.

Phil: No, no, no, no.

Phil: Gargan, former host of the, what was it called?

Phil: Beginners Try to Make a Podcast.

Phil: What was it called?

Tom: Endless Backlog.

Phil: Endless Backlog.

Phil: And he actually, I was on the reverse end of it, because he gifted me Cities Skylines, and I just hadn't been on Steam because of whatever was going on in my life.

Phil: And I didn't know he had gifted it to me until you told me, because obviously he was bitching about it.

Phil: And then by the time I went online, it had already timed out sort of thing.

Phil: So I guess, you know, I can't be too critical when I've done it to people myself.

Phil: If you wish...

Tom: Just karma catching up.

Phil: If you wish to gift a game to me, your host, fellow host of The Game Under Podcast, my...

Phil: You can go to Game Under Phil on Steam.

Phil: You can gift me all you want.

Phil: Game Under Phil on Steam.

Phil: And I will acknowledge it here on the show and through direct message.

Phil: How's that?

Tom: I don't think you'll acknowledge it.

Tom: You won't even notice.

Phil: Yeah, well, I'm on Steam every day now.

Phil: But fast forward two weeks from now when I've been gifted homosexual porn games.

Phil: So, and trying to explain to my wife.

Phil: Okay, score?

Tom: I think it's time to roll the die, Jesse.

Phil: Okay, I'll get the minifig ready.

Tom: Also gets a two out of

Phil: Okay, here's a minifig coming down.

Tom: Two for two so far.

Phil: Minifig coming down the pike.

Phil: And it gives it a out of

Tom: So we've got a bit of a discrepancy this time.

Phil: Yeah, which one do you think is closer to the mark?

Tom: Well, the Die of Destiny is the official score.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: And always has to be.

Phil: But the minifig is there to correct your impression.

Phil: So I think that sounded more like a to to me.

Tom: Well, the minifig is your impressions of my impressions.

Phil: It's now time to close out the podcast.

Phil: But before we do that, we've got Phil's questions for Tom from other people's podcasts.

Phil: Madison writes, now you're going to have to listen carefully.

Phil: What is your favorite gaming experience with a game that was outside your normal comfort zone?

Tom: So just a game that I would not normally play.

Phil: You played a game that you wouldn't normally play, and you're like, wow, this is fantastic.

Phil: If you need time to think, I will give a couple of examples from my own experience.

Tom: It's hard to answer, because I'm happy to play anything and interested in playing anything.

Phil: Oh, come on.

Phil: There's got to be some game genres that are completely outside your comfort zone.

Tom: Here's an answer for you.

Tom: As per our poker discussion earlier, I'm not a fan of digital versions of card games or board games.

Tom: So I would say two examples would be Solitaire, the default Windows game and Cyberpunk is it?

Tom: Which is based on a board game.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So that's outside of your comfort zone.

Phil: That's the best you can come up with?

Tom: That's the best I can come up with.

Phil: Oh, my God.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I just looked up an example for my own life.

Phil: And apparently this game is selling for $on eBay.

Phil: So, tower building games.

Phil: I didn't even know what a tower building game was.

Phil: And once it was described to me, I was like, I'd never play that.

Phil: But one of my favorite games of all time is Dragon Quest Heroes Rocket Slime, which is a fantastic tower building game for DS.

Phil: Another experience would be real time strategies.

Phil: Real time strategies, as regular listeners know, drive me up the wall.

Phil: I can't handle the stress of it.

Phil: But I love playing Halo Wars.

Phil: And I also enjoyed, at least tolerated and beat, what was the guys that did Psychonauts?

Phil: Something, Zone?

Tom: Double Fine.

Phil: Double Fine, right.

Phil: Double Fine's heavy metal game, which was called?

Tom: Full Throttle.

Phil: Full?

Phil: No, not Full Throttle.

Tom: That's the original one.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: So, but basically, their real time strategy game, which was the one with Jack Black in it.

Phil: That was a game completely outside my comfort zone that I can-

Tom: Brutal Legend.

Phil: Brutal Legend.

Phil: There you go.

Phil: Hey, we can't have a game under podcast where I don't forget a game I'm trying to talk about, and you don't talk about a game that you played at someone else's house.

Phil: And the other one would be Slay the Spire.

Phil: It's a rogue-like deck-builder game.

Phil: I hate rogue-likes.

Phil: I like progression in my games.

Phil: I don't like not being able to progress.

Phil: But it's actually a rogue-lite because you do get to keep some of your progression from run to run.

Phil: So those are examples from my world.

Phil: Have you come up with anything else from your world?

Tom: I can give you a few more.

Tom: I think turn-based strategy games I'm not that interested in.

Phil: Really?

Tom: Yep, but there's a few that I've enjoyed a lot.

Tom: One of them is Jagged Alliance

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Which I think is one of the best strategy games ever made.

Tom: There was a turn-based Army Men game that was surprisingly good.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: The Commandoes series and Odium.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Remind me again the Commandoes series.

Tom: You don't know the Commandoes series?

Phil: No.

Phil: Just remind me.

Tom: They're turn-based strategy games where you're playing as, I think, special forces, I think mainly British in the Second World War.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Hence, they're Commandoes.

Phil: And what was the other one?

Phil: Odium?

Tom: The other one, I got the name wrong, I think.

Tom: It's Gorky was what I meant to say.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I've heard of that.

Tom: No.

Tom: It's got two names.

Tom: It is known both as Odium and Gorky

Phil: And what sort of game is that?

Tom: That is also a turn-based strategy game.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So both of us have a commonality in that we don't like, we're not drawn particularly to strategy games.

Tom: Well, I like RTSs.

Tom: I like real-time strategy games.

Tom: But turn-based, I don't enjoy as much.

Tom: Although now that I'm coming up with so many examples, I also enjoy Final Fantasy Tactics.

Tom: So maybe I do like turn-based strategy games.

Phil: See, I like turn-based strategy games because you can take your time to figure out what you're doing.

Phil: Real-time strategy games like Brutal Legend and Halo Wars drive me nuts because if you can't see what's happening on the screen and you're rushing around, oh my god, it's so stressful.

Tom: That's what I enjoy.

Tom: If they're turn-based, I just get annoyed at how slow it is.

Tom: And it takes so long for you to figure out if what you're doing is right or wrong or not.

Tom: And there's little room for improvisation like there is in an RTS.

Phil: I think why I don't like real-time strategy is because all of the jobs I've ever had, and I'm still working gainfully, are real-time strategies.

Phil: And it's, you know, so I already get that level of stress from just, okay, what's happening now?

Phil: How do I react?

Phil: What's happening now?

Phil: How do I react?

Phil: Whereas term-based strategies I can deal with.

Phil: Still not a favorite genre of mine, but yeah, like I don't think too many flight controllers go home, air traffic flight controllers go home and play air traffic flight controller games.

Phil: You know, they're probably playing different kinds of things, like Bellatro.

Tom: And I've got one more example.

Tom: I think the city building genre.

Tom: I've never enjoyed Sim City or Theme Park very much, or most games like that, but Caesar I played a lot and greatly enjoyed.

Phil: What was Caesar ?

Tom: You don't know Caesar ?

Tom: No, man.

Tom: Caesar is a city building game.

Tom: Where you're building a Roman city.

Phil: Is it old?

Tom: It's very old.

Tom: I think it's from

Phil: Whoa, okay.

Phil: So kind of around the same time that The Castles was around as well, which is a similar type of thing.

Phil: Okay, well, that was a good question.

Phil: Thank you, Madison.

Phil: And with that, we'll close out the show.

Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: So there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now on our website at gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to see...

Tom: That means I've been through two whole PCs in that period of time.

Phil: At least.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, use our comment section from our homepage.

Phil: You don't have to log in and register and all that sort of thing.

Phil: And we welcome any comments you have.

Phil: Thank you again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Game Under Podcast 163

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:11 Intro

0:00:22 Balatro

0:02:33 Solitaire and Magic the Gathering

0:03:40 RMIT VEGA Games and Animation Expo

0:07:22 But First - Off Topic Starts Here

0:09:36 Back to the RMIT for a Second

0:10:15 Chickpea by Loomi

0:10:52 Who Taught These Police to Drive by Feltlike

0:11:20 Off Topic Starts Here

0:17:48 RMIT VEGA Games and Animation Expo

0:19:23 Reflection of Atheria by Nyanko Nekomi

0:22:55 Burnout Bakery by KeonDC

0:23:41 Enjoy a Treat by Bo-Rui Lin

0:26:56 A Highly Sensitive Experience by Hin Long (Daniel) Yiu & Quest 3 Impressions

0:32:39 Blood Legacy by Josephine Putri

0:34:05 The History and Current State of Australian Game Development

0:43:50 Dance Dance Deception by Lou Fourie

0:47:00 Coffin Room by Kay Kwan and Lam Le

0:50:08 Sea Blind by Peng Yu Jeong

0:52:35 Game of the Show

0:54:45 Scores

0:57:50 News - STALKER 2 Launch Problems

1:06:52 News - Microsoft Flight Simulator Crash Lands

1:13:35 News - Microsoft's It's an Xbox Campaign

1:19:52 News - Steamdeck, Episode 3 and Family Sharing

1:28:18 Outro

Transcript
Phil: Hello, and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast.

Phil: I'm one of your hosts.

Phil: My name is Phil Fogg, and this week I am joined by Tom Towers.

Phil: Hey, Tom, how are you doing?

Tom: I'm not bad.

Tom: How are you?

Phil: I'm doing all right.

Phil: I've been thinking about, as the end of the year comes up, you know, you're listening to podcasts, talking about Game of the Years, and, you know, there's only been quite a few games I've played this year that came out this year.

Phil: You've played considerably more than me.

Phil: So, you know, I'm thinking of, like, Indica, and thank goodness you're here, and things like that.

Phil: Indy garbage, you know.

Phil: But Boulantro has been coming up quite a bit, and me and Veda talked about it on episode when you were visiting the Golden Isle of Ceylon, or Lak Diva, as I call it, with my friends.

Phil: And he was very high on it.

Phil: It was made by one dude in Canada.

Phil: Are you familiar with Boulantro at all?

Tom: I am, unfortunately.

Phil: It's actually just Boulantro.

Tom: Anyone's spoken about.

Phil: So have you played it?

Tom: No, I haven't.

Tom: It's a poker game.

Tom: My religion is against poker games.

Phil: Yeah, I know, as is mine.

Phil: But the thing is, they all say, and Vader said this as well, that, oh, you don't have to know anything about poker about it.

Phil: It's actually just a deck builder.

Tom: That makes it even worse.

Tom: When have you ever heard, for instance, someone's listening to a band and they say, I normally hate this sort of music, but this I really like, and that that being a good thing.

Phil: Yeah, I know, but the thing like I love Slay the Spire, right?

Phil: Which is a deck building rogue-like game.

Phil: When automatically you'd go, well, why that's like death.

Phil: Like, why would you play a play that?

Phil: But I love it.

Phil: I absolutely love it.

Phil: And so the thing is that everyone says, hey, but don't worry.

Phil: If you don't know how to play poker, you don't have to know anything about poker to play this game.

Phil: You'll still love it.

Phil: And then they immediately start talking about a whole bunch of poker terms that I have no idea what they mean.

Phil: So I've been put off by it.

Phil: I was almost tempted to get it when it went on sale last week.

Phil: But then by the time I got onto Steam, that had passed.

Phil: So I just wanted to actually know if you'd played that or not.

Tom: I have not.

Tom: On the topic of card games though, I think Solitaire should be in the discussion of Tetris as best game ever.

Tom: I think that's the card game that sticks in my mind that I probably enjoyed playing the most in a virtual form.

Phil: You've never got into Magic the Gathering, have you?

Tom: I played it a little bit with my cousins and also some friends, but that was pretty much it.

Phil: Like the physical card game, right?

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: So I was deep into it.

Phil: I was playing like twice a week in group settings when it launched and for about years thereafter.

Tom: Well, a childhood friend, I think he won the state competition.

Phil: Oh, really?

Tom: At some point.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: So he's actually a bigger nerd than you?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, that must have been a boost to your ego at the time.

Phil: But enough about cards.

Phil: What else have you been up to?

Tom: Well, I went to the RMIT End of Year Graduate Animation and Games Expo.

Tom: As a friend of my sister had an animation on there.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: I've heard about this.

Phil: It's called, for whatever reason, it's called the Vega RMIT.

Phil: Is that Victoria Education Gaming Animation?

Phil: Victorian Expo of Gaming and Animation, maybe?

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: That makes sense.

Phil: Vega.

Tom: Unless it's sponsored by AMD.

Phil: Yeah, could be.

Phil: Now, I've heard a fair bit about this.

Phil: So you actually got to go.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: Well, I think anyone can go.

Tom: You can just walk in and they've got security guards wandering through the masses while you're there.

Tom: So it's walk in as you please, unlike the games exposition, which I think you have to buy a ticket for that they have at the convention center in the city.

Phil: So the games thing was at the convention center, but you went to the animation thing, but you also saw the game thing?

Tom: No, it was not at the convention center.

Tom: It was at RMIT itself.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: There's a games expo that they have at the convention center.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Not the university, but it's a commercial games exhibition.

Phil: So how was the animation part?

Phil: Does your sister's friend thing was good?

Tom: I think hers was among the best animations there.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And she won an award, I think, for the best character animation.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: What's the name of it?

Phil: Let's give it a plug.

Tom: I can't recall the name of it.

Phil: It was at Memorable.

Tom: Excellent.

Tom: I can give you a summary of the film.

Tom: The film was at Memorable.

Tom: I can give you a verbal description of the film from beginning to end, if you'd like.

Phil: No, I wouldn't.

Phil: But we will look it up at the end of the show, and we'll put it in the show notes.

Phil: So all you need to do is look at your phone and we'll mention it there.

Phil: So what about the actual games?

Tom: So the games, before we move on to the games, I just want to say you're always telling me to market the show more.

Tom: So every booth, except for one, because the person who made the game was not there but his brother, I made sure to advertise the show.

Phil: You were wearing your Game Under T-shirt, I hope.

Tom: Oh, obviously, and Game Under hat, all of our merchandise which you can buy from our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: They probably couldn't appreciate the fact that you're wearing our branded Game Under condoms either.

Tom: Well, not all of them saw them, only some.

Phil: Yeah, I imagine there was some groupies.

Tom: Of course.

Phil: You should have told me about this.

Phil: I would have gone down.

Phil: They probably would have given us a keynote.

Tom: As soon as you heard they were groupies, you would have been on the plane.

Phil: I would have been, yes.

Phil: I mean, just to ward them off of you and protect the poor lasses.

Phil: You know, I am always the perennial white knight.

Phil: Okay, so you told one of them about the show, and that's your marketing done for the year?

Tom: Yeah, exactly.

Tom: I told each one of them.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, I expect.

Tom: Except for one.

Phil: I expect I'll be receiving a receipt for the petrol money that was spent as a marketing expense any day now.

Phil: Well, that's cool.

Tom: But considering we might have some new listeners, I was thinking, you know, should we begin the show on a controversial trademark banter note or not?

Phil: Oh, well.

Tom: And I think you answered the question just then yourself.

Phil: I'd prefer to hear more about the games at RMIT.

Tom: No, I think given the direction this has gone in, before we get to the games at RMIT, we've got to confront long-running character of the show, Elon Musk.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, now, if this enters a certain territory, of course, it won't make it to the final show.

Tom: Well, I think it's guaranteed to enter some of that territory, just as we allege he may or may not have himself.

Phil: Well, you allege.

Phil: That's Tom Towers, Tom Towers speaking for the record.

Tom: I think I posted on thevgpress.com a while ago.

Tom: I don't know if it was you or someone else posted, an Elon Musk interview, or I came across it myself.

Tom: And I was just absolutely floored by the fact that he, I think he was on Joe Rogan, perhaps.

Tom: And he came across as the less intelligent person in the room between the two.

Phil: So you were flabbergasted by this, huh?

Tom: I was floored by it because all I knew about Elon Musk previously was that he was a ******.

Phil: Alleged.

Phil: That's not what you said is what people have alleged.

Tom: But it's what I've been told.

Tom: It's what I've been told by our sources.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Well actually, who are anonymous for their own protection.

Phil: Now, don't get me wrong.

Phil: I'm not here to defend the guy.

Phil: I mean, he's a defense department shill, you know.

Phil: But you've got the story exactly opposite.

Phil: It was he who was sued for calling the dude that rescued the kids in the cave a ****.

Phil: And he lost.

Phil: I don't think there was ever any allegation that he-

Tom: No, Elon Musk won.

Tom: He won the defamation case.

Phil: No, no, no.

Tom: Even though-

Phil: You've got it exactly wrong.

Phil: The dude won against Elon Musk.

Tom: I think you're incorrect here.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Are you going to do some fact checking, real-time fact checking?

Tom: Yeah, I'm doing real-time fact checking.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: So I'm here just so you know, to promote the RMIT and the students who have gone through.

Phil: There's a couple of different things that they had game development, different things that they had to do.

Phil: So some of them, at the very start, they had to remake games like Flappy Bird and do top-down games.

Phil: I noticed that.

Phil: Then they went on to do mini platform games, and then like Capstone games.

Phil: I went on to itch, where they're all listed, and most of them are playable, if not all of them are playable, through the browser.

Phil: You were promoting some games, I noticed, that you'll tell us about.

Phil: But I noticed there was a game called Chickpea, that I was attracted to, which is about, made by someone called Loomi, L-O-O-M-I.

Phil: And I noticed that, you know, days ago, he or she had just posted a sad face.

Phil: There was no other comment.

Phil: So I said, well, I got to play this game.

Phil: I'll play the game.

Phil: It was a top-down maze game, where you've got to try and retrieve five of your baby chickens.

Phil: And it had really cool music.

Phil: I really loved the music.

Phil: And I liked the animation of the sprites and the sprites themselves.

Phil: So another game I played was Who Taught These Police How to Drive?

Phil: And I've got to tell you, you know, part of playing these games took me back to our roadblocks experience.

Phil: I mean, because it's all about the name.

Phil: Who Taught These Police How to Drive is a great name.

Phil: And that's why I was drawn to it.

Phil: So I played that.

Phil: It wasn't super great, but it was a good concept anyway.

Phil: So have you now fact checked yourself?

Phil: And who's right, me or you?

Tom: I, as usual, I'm correct and you're right.

Phil: Really?

Phil: So who won?

Tom: BBC, th of December,

Tom: Elon Musk wins defamation case over pedo guy tweet about Kaver.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: How?

Phil: How did he win?

Tom: Let's read the article live on air.

Tom: This is how we're going to raise our popularity.

Tom: We're marketing.

Tom: And now we're going the classic streamer route of just reading articles live on air or watching YouTube videos.

Tom: Elon Musk did not defame a British Kaver who helped in last year's rescue of trapped Thai schoolboys by calling him a, quote, pedo guy, end quote, a US jury has found.

Phil: They don't even like as a journalist, you love using words that you never get to use.

Phil: I'm disappointed in the BBC that they haven't used the word Spelunker.

Tom: Unfortunately.

Phil: One who explores caves.

Tom: But it appears reading the rest of the article that his defense essentially came down to him claiming that pedo guy was a common term in South Africa where he grew up.

Phil: What did it mean in South Africa?

Tom: I would assume that it meant a male pedophile.

Phil: But it actually means really cool dude.

Phil: So if you reread the tweet from the top and substitute the words really cool dude, can you please reread it?

Tom: I think we could say Elon Musk.

Tom: We just need to use the correct terminology.

Tom: So you no longer need to censor my claims about Elon Musk as long as I call him a pedo guy.

Phil: That's exactly right.

Phil: You can call him that if you're from South Africa.

Tom: Well, I'm not from South Africa, but...

Phil: Which fortunately, you're not.

Tom: Australia is, there have been various times where we clearly relate a lot to at least some South Africans because we have various immigration pledges to save one portion of the South African populace to which Elon Musk belongs from another.

Tom: So I think clearly the Australian culture is very similar to at least part of South African culture from which Elon Musk comes.

Phil: Your link is tenuous.

Tom: But I think legally defensible.

Phil: That doesn't make him one.

Phil: Him winning a lawsuit for calling someone a pedo guy doesn't make him an actual pedo guy.

Tom: No, but it allows me to call him one.

Phil: To say that, all right, but you can't say the other word.

Phil: Which fortunately, I have the ability to bleep the show because no one else wants to edit it.

Tom: You'll be happy to find that what we're getting to is, given that he has now become a part of Donald Trump's entourage and been given a fake governmental position.

Phil: Yes, fake government position.

Tom: Yeah, I've always claimed his appears to be a complete moron as well as a f***ing d***.

Tom: But given these, the recent way in which he's managed to ingratiate himself in the American political elite, it's made me question one of those two claims.

Tom: I think we can be % certain that he is a pedo guy.

Tom: But the fact that he has now got a fake governmental position is a part of mainstream politics in America.

Tom: Makes me question whether he's actually an idiot or not.

Phil: Okay, so tell me about RMIT.

Tom: But the reason is, and I want a second answer from you because I was never satisfied with your first answer a while ago.

Tom: So I think it's plain to see that if you are capable of winning an election in America, it's very important that you come across as having some degree of dementia, right?

Phil: In recent years, certainly.

Tom: Yeah, since at least Obama.

Tom: Obama is basically the exception to the rule.

Tom: He's the only person to have won an election, I would say in my lifetime, who has not presented as or actually had some form of dementia.

Phil: There's been some lucid precedents, certainly.

Tom: In my lifetime?

Tom: Bear in mind, you're a lot older than I am.

Phil: Yeah, that's true.

Phil: Yeah, because I was thinking about Theodore Roosevelt.

Tom: So what's the reason for this, was my question.

Phil: Look, I think it's an undesirable position and that only crazy narcissists, including Obama, go for it.

Tom: No, no, no.

Tom: Why do the voters go for the person who presents as having the most degree of brain damage or difficulty thinking?

Phil: Well, unlike Australia, where voting is compulsory, which has its own problems, only about a third of Americans actually vote.

Phil: So you're getting people who have limited choices because it's a two-party system and people who want to innovate in areas of thought are maligned and sidelined and not given the mantle of rising to the top.

Phil: And so the people that do have the stamina to actually want to lead one of those two parties and do whatever it takes to win, because they, for whatever reason, feel that they're the only person capable of leading the free world, end quote.

Phil: Yeah, it's just a matter of a limited choice.

Phil: And so basically, it comes down to a sports battle.

Phil: Do you root for the red team?

Phil: Do you root for the blue team?

Tom: Yes, but I want to, I'm just trying to work out what the appeal is.

Phil: It's not an appeal.

Phil: It's just people who care vote and people who care.

Tom: But it must be, it must be either the marketing team in the parties say, we believe that if you present yourself as having some sort of degenerative brain disease, that is what's going to get you the most votes.

Tom: Or that's how they naturally are and that's why they're chosen because that's what the American marketing team behind the parties believe will win.

Tom: And it does win.

Phil: I think the marketing teams work with what they've got.

Phil: And basically they work with the candidate they've got.

Tom: I think there's very clearly, I think it's more than that.

Tom: I really do.

Tom: So we'll leave it to listeners to think about why Phil's answer has changed from because the voter is old to not giving a reason.

Tom: And move on to finally talking about the games because we assume that any of the people I advertise the podcast to have now been totally put off.

Phil: At this point I would like to, I probably should have done this earlier, remind the listeners that we do have chapter markers.

Phil: So you can skip any section of the podcast that you wish quite easily by pressing one button.

Tom: So you can listen to the meat of the show that we were just talking about.

Phil: On compatible podcasts.

Phil: You can actually go back and listen to it again if you want.

Phil: So yeah, and since, while you were talking, I actually played another game from RMIT.

Phil: But I'll save that for when you talk about some of the games that you were able to play.

Phil: Were you able to play games at the show?

Tom: Yes, I played actually quite a few games.

Phil: Did you play any of the games that I've mentioned so far?

Phil: Chick Pea and Who Taught These Police How to Drive?

Tom: No, I didn't.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Unfortunately.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Our coverage isn't overlapping.

Tom: So I went there on two days.

Tom: The first day, I did not have time to play any games.

Tom: I could only see the animation showcase.

Tom: I do now have the name of the film by my sister's friend, and I even have her name as well, which I did actually remember.

Tom: But the film was My Monthly Struggle, and the filmmaker was Crystal Tie, and I highly recommend it.

Phil: Excellent.

Tom: As for the games, I'll go through them in the order that I believe I played them.

Tom: The first game was Reflection of Etherea by Sammy, and it's basically a D co-op platformer inspired by Kirby and Shovel Knight.

Tom: I'm not actually sure that I've ever played a D Kirby, not Shovel Knight, sorry, Hollow Knight.

Tom: And I'm not sure I've ever actually played a D Kirby game.

Phil: Oh, really?

Tom: But I immediately recognized the aesthetic.

Tom: And Hollow Knight, though I own it, I have never played that either.

Tom: But I think Hollow Knight is actually another Melburnian game.

Phil: Well, I would imagine so.

Phil: All these students are studying in Melbourne, correct?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: So the gameplay is interesting because one player is on the top of the screen and the other player is on the bottom of the screen.

Tom: And the player on the bottom of the screen is upside down.

Tom: So as you are walking along, if you're playing on the bottom of the screen, instead of jumping upwards, you'll be jumping downwards.

Tom: And that, I play, we started off, I was playing Crystal and she played down the bottom and then we swapped.

Tom: And it certainly takes your brain a few seconds to adjust to playing it in the different orientation.

Tom: I think it adds a pretty unique and interesting twist on co-op.

Phil: And was this developed in the Unity engine?

Phil: All of the games I played were in Unity.

Phil: So I assume so.

Tom: It looked like it could have been.

Tom: I did not ask, though.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: But I think the only issue was the wireless controller for the bottom half of the screen was apparently very old and therefore was in the process of dying.

Tom: So one's inputs were often not registered at all or there was a delay.

Tom: I assume that was not a programming issue but was indeed due to the controller.

Tom: Because if you're playing on the top half of the screen with a different controller, there were no such issues.

Tom: And mechanically, on the working controller, the jumping was responsive and satisfying.

Tom: There was a minor shooting mechanic and enemies you had to avoid or kill as well as a little boss battle at the end.

Tom: So it was, I think, a surprisingly full demo.

Tom: And certainly if I'd come across that game and played it, I would have been interested in the co-op twist and found the gameplay mechanics engaging enough to continue with it.

Tom: So it was surprisingly, I say surprisingly, but I was expecting the games to be reasonably good given the quality of indie games that Melbourne and Australia, but particularly Melbourne, has produced over the last few years.

Tom: So I was expecting the games to actually be of a pretty good standard and the first game I played there certainly was.

Phil: And the name of that game again?

Tom: Reflection of Etherea.

Phil: Reflection of Etherea.

Phil: Now I've noticed on Twitch.

Tom: Do you mean itch.io?

Phil: itch.io, yeah.

Phil: I think it is.

Phil: Because most of them are available there.

Phil: If you just search RMIT, you will find a link to their website and then from there, you can go, click on it and go on to itch.io and then play these games.

Phil: As I said earlier, most of them are browser compatible.

Phil: A third game that I played from itch.io is called Burnout Bakery.

Phil: Did you get to play this one?

Tom: No, I didn't, unfortunately.

Phil: It's made by someone called KeonDC and it's basically Wasdy and Mouse.

Phil: It's a hotline Miami game where you play as a piece of bread that's trying to break out of a bakery before you get toasted.

Phil: I think toasted would have been a good name as well, but Burnout Bakery gets it across.

Phil: It's a very capable game.

Phil: Again, I don't know how you would turn that into something that would be a full length game, but I guess that's not really the point.

Phil: What were some of the other games that you played?

Tom: I think the next game we played was another co-op game called Enjoy A Treat.

Tom: This was definitely one of the most creative games at the Expo.

Tom: One player with the mouse and keyboard controls movement from a first-person perspective.

Tom: It's basically a first-person platformer.

Tom: But the other player through facing a webcam controls the mouth of the character you're playing and also the jumping mechanic.

Tom: So you jump by blinking and to be able to see, the camera is within the moving protagonist's mouth.

Tom: So you have to hold your mouth open for the player moving to be able to see.

Tom: And sometimes you need to chew things in the game, at which point you will need to chew instead of holding your mouth open.

Tom: So it's interesting having the combined movement of one player controlling jumping and the other moving around.

Tom: It's also interesting that you're doing that through blinking.

Tom: And the mouth mechanic is also a very interesting little gimmick.

Tom: I use gimmick in a good sense, not in a negative sense.

Tom: It's certainly surprisingly difficult, as you often find with motion controlled games.

Tom: They'll have you do a simple movement that you would think wouldn't require much physical ability, but it's surprisingly difficult.

Tom: Holding your mouth open the entire time, the majority of the time, it certainly gives your jaw a workout you might not be used to.

Phil: Well, maybe for you, but...

Tom: It certainly depends on some other activities you might be performing.

Phil: So who made that game, do you know?

Tom: Yep, that was by Bo-Rui Lin.

Phil: Bo-Rui Lin, and what was the name of it?

Tom: Enjoy a Treat.

Phil: Enjoy a Treat, okay.

Tom: And you were also given a chocolate or other sweet before playing as well.

Tom: So I don't know if that class is bribery or not.

Tom: So you'll have to take all of our impressions with a game, a grain of salt on that game, unfortunately, because we were bribed by the developer.

Phil: I think just being in front of the developer, I mean, that's got to be a great experience.

Phil: And obviously, you're going to tolerate some things that in front of the person.

Tom: Well, in this case, the developer was not there because apparently he had to fly back home for a family emergency.

Tom: So his brother was attending the booth in his place.

Tom: And apparently his brother looks a lot like him.

Tom: So many of his students, his co-students there, were mistaking him for the real deal.

Phil: Did he look like a terrorist?

Tom: Maybe a terrorist from s China or modern Taiwan.

Phil: Okay, so just like a normal person.

Phil: Any other games that were...

Phil: You went there for two days.

Phil: I mean, you had to have played several games.

Tom: Well, the first day was only the animation.

Tom: Then the second day I was there playing the games.

Phil: Any other games you want to mention?

Tom: Yes, we're not finished yet.

Tom: The next game I played was called A Highly Sensitive Experience.

Tom: It was a VR game in the Quest

Tom: So I can also give some Quest impressions.

Phil: That's what I, yeah.

Phil: Have you been using your Quest lately?

Phil: Or is it more of a passing phase?

Tom: I would be using it, but I'm yet to work out a solution to the issue of the strap plastic.

Tom: So the plastic that you attach either the stock straps that comes with or an aftermarket solution to.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Well, you bought the quote, I think you said it was the most expensive, but most affordable or best value thing that you've ever bought.

Phil: Because it was $for a stupid little strap, but it totally changed your experience with the Quest

Phil: What happened with that strap?

Tom: Well, that broke at some point.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Which was one thing, because it's a $strap, but then the plastic on the Quest itself, that you attach any strap to has since broken.

Phil: That's no good.

Tom: Which is an engineering issue that I'm yet to work out a solution to.

Phil: Did they work out an engineering solution with the Quest ?

Tom: Well, their Quest was new, so it is not yet a year old and falling apart.

Phil: Did you see any changes though?

Phil: Did they change that plastic part with like a steel rod or something?

Tom: Well, it felt a lot lighter than the Quest did, but I don't know whether that is due to an increase in strength over the period of time since I last used the Quest and the Quest or not.

Phil: An increase in your strength or processing strength?

Tom: In my strength.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Tom: And it required a lot less adjustment to become comfortable and stayed on requiring less strap pressure as well.

Tom: So I think ergonomically, it seems to be a much better design than it was previously.

Tom: Additionally, I think the screen resolution was potentially higher as well than the Quest because without any adjustments to the lens positioning or anything like that, it produced a pretty good image as well.

Tom: So it seems to be generally better designed.

Tom: But I do wonder, given the questionable build quality of the Quest whether the potentially lighter materials might also result in even worse durability.

Phil: Well, it's probably lighter because all the materials inside are smaller.

Phil: You know, I was about to say go out and buy Quest and I'll buy your Quest

Phil: But now that I know it's broken, I'm not so sure.

Phil: So the screen though, I mean, does it look significantly better or couldn't you tell because of the game you're playing?

Tom: I thought based on the game, it was...

Tom: We'll get to that in a minute.

Tom: But I think, like I said, I thought the definitely came across that was a high resolution screen.

Phil: Excellent.

Tom: That was my impression of it.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But so the game itself, I think with a great use of VR, it's essentially simulating the experience of a highly sensitive person.

Tom: And I think it also doubles as a sensory overload simulator as well.

Tom: As someone who has experienced sensory overload, I think it also demonstrates that experience quite well.

Tom: It starts off, if I remember correctly, as you essentially crossing the road.

Tom: And it's a very abstract experience.

Tom: So it begins on a mainly black screen and there are traffic lights.

Tom: And you can hear the signature male-burning road crossing signal for blind people, which was interesting to hear in a game.

Tom: And you then have to cross the road.

Tom: And it moves on to some other experiences culminating in a very big keyboard and typing noises, which I thought was a great use of exaggeration to get across both the tactical feeling of typing and also the noise as a potentially annoying experience.

Tom: So I thought it was a great use of the medium and it was definitely an interesting experience as well.

Phil: Yeah, I'd agree from what you've described.

Phil: So what was the name of that one again?

Tom: That was a highly sensitive experience and it was by Hin Long Yiu, who I think also went by Daniel.

Phil: Okay, so I hate to say this, but is it kind of cheating using VR because it's so easy to...

Phil: Yeah, but not really because it's going to be more complicated.

Phil: It sounds to me like a really good experience and a good concept and I've got to say by looking at all these games on itch.io...

Tom: I think rather than cheating by using VR, it's a great use of the medium of VR.

Phil: Yeah, and I switched my response to it midway there because, you know, you have to have a good idea and I've got to say, looking at all these games, the best things about them are the great ideas, which was the great things about going into Roblox, though there's a lot of garbage on Roblox.

Phil: These are inspired people and this is the best idea they have and that's what they've put into the game.

Phil: So that's what's really exciting about reviewing these kinds of games.

Tom: Absolutely.

Tom: The next game was also not a co-op experience, was Blood Legacy and this was I think one of the more traditional games.

Tom: It was sort of like a Castlevania style side-scrolling beat-em-up.

Tom: It had very striking presentation.

Tom: It was basically a semi-animated manga style storyboard cut scene leading straight into a fight and the voice acting, which I believe some of was by the developer, was exceptionally well done.

Tom: It was better than a lot of voice acting in many professional games without any question.

Tom: The narration, I think, was AI, but the character voice acting was by her.

Tom: The music was also exceptionally good.

Tom: The only thing I think that it was lacking was in the combat sequences.

Tom: It probably could have done with maybe more powerful sound effects to add a little bit more tactility to the combat.

Tom: But other than that, as brief as it was, it was a very striking experience.

Tom: It was developed by Josephine Putri, who I probably mispronounced.

Phil: The name of the game is Blood Legacy.

Tom: Correct.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I'll give you a break here, and then I'll just continue with your impressions.

Phil: But these guys are making games.

Phil: They've got great ideas.

Phil: They've got creativity.

Phil: They're going to have the technical skills.

Phil: But my question, and you won't have an answer for this, possibly, what are they going to do in Australia?

Phil: We have had some games released in Australia recently, but it's been nothing like, you know, in through where we actually had a game industry here in Australia.

Phil: So, you know, do you have an answer for that?

Phil: I mean, where do they go?

Phil: What do they do?

Tom: Well, they definitely can't work in a games industry in terms of working for a mainstream developer.

Tom: I don't think there's really many of them left around.

Tom: But I think they can work nevertheless in games as indie developers.

Phil: Yeah, if you look at games like, what was the goose game, for example?

Tom: Untitled Goose Game.

Phil: Untitled Goose Game.

Phil: I mean, like, it was funded by the Victorian government, you know, like, it's kind of like the Australian movie industry.

Phil: Every time you see a movie that's made in Australia, it's always, you know, gotten sponsorship by the state government, the federal government and the tourist board for whatever states they...

Tom: which was also the case with the, when there was something of a game industry here.

Phil: Yeah, but...

Tom: So even with LA.

Tom: Noire, for example.

Phil: No.

Phil: Yeah, but look at Bioshock for example.

Phil: Like, by Take that was a completely commercial adventure with no government funds whatsoever.

Tom: I think only Bioshock

Tom: In the case of LA.

Tom: Noire, that was also received state funding.

Phil: Right.

Phil: What was the name of the studio that did the...

Phil: What was the game, the Aliens game that, you know, that they shot up a bunch of people?

Phil: It was basically a third-person shooter set in the s alien scene.

Phil: Like, that was completely...

Tom: Destroy All Humans.

Phil: Yeah, Destroy All Humans.

Phil: That was a game developed in Brisbane, and that was completely commercial as well.

Phil: So, you know, there was a time where Australian studios were engaged because while America slept, Australia was awake, and there was enough overlap, and obviously we speak English like Americans do, highly educated, have a good accessibility to the traditional education system, I'll say, as opposed to highly educated.

Phil: And, you know, there was a time where Australian development was really flourishing with Ubisoft, Take-Two, but now, like, it seems to be in the same sad state as film.

Phil: Like, there was absolutely no way, as much as I loved film when I was in high school and made movies and directing and all that sort of stuff, there's absolutely no foreseeable future, vocationally, for someone who wants to make movies in Australia, or, yeah, at this point, someone who wants to make video games in Australia.

Phil: I'd love to hear that someone come on and disagree with us and tell me what the path is.

Phil: Is it working remotely for a studio, or do you have to move to get a job?

Tom: I'm not sure you're right about destroy all humans, if we can be pedantic for a moment.

Tom: I think that may also have received some degree of funding.

Tom: But in any case, certainly, when there was something of a games industry here...

Phil: It did, yeah, it was, yeah.

Phil: There was a reason for it.

Phil: The government was heavily subsidising it from a tax perspective, yeah.

Tom: The industry existed solely because of the existence of subsidisation.

Phil: Yes, I agree.

Tom: Essentially.

Tom: It was so small that I think the majority of people, if in that time period, there was a games course you could study and games were mainstream enough, that a large number of people wanted to make games, there certainly would not have been enough room for them to do so even back then.

Tom: Because certainly, in that era, the number of people who would have been interested in developing games was miniscule.

Tom: The number of people who were interested openly in playing games in Australia was relatively small.

Tom: Certainly, I would argue compared to a lot of other countries.

Tom: It's a totally different thing now where playing games is a mainstream thing.

Tom: So a lot of people are going to be interested in studying games because they love games.

Tom: It's their hobby and passion or even vocation potentially, whereas that would have been a very small subset of nerds in the past in Australia.

Tom: So I think even if there was something of the industry that was there in the past, there would still not have been anywhere near enough support for people to be able to work in that field through working for a mainstream developer.

Tom: So I think this would have been an issue back then as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And there are independent studios now where if you know the right people, you can get a job with an independent studio, stay in Australia and work.

Phil: But when I was a kid coming out of high school, I wanted to be in movies, I wanted to direct, which is a lofty thing.

Phil: Only someone coming out of high school would think.

Phil: So I moved to LA because there was no logical place to quote, move to in Australia, like where do you move to in Australia to become a director?

Phil: There's not an ecosystem there.

Phil: I wanted to write scripts and direct movies, so you went to Hollywood.

Phil: I just don't know where these students are going to go.

Phil: But I, as you said, maybe I'm thinking, my thinking is old, and maybe there's pathways there that are accessible to them to work remotely.

Phil: And honestly, yeah, for as an in-game developer, I'm not sure where I'd move to.

Phil: I mean, there's plenty of development in California, but yeah, it's a tough one.

Phil: Because you go to uni, you pick up these skills, ostensibly it's to get a job.

Tom: In theory, I think if you're going to uni to study anything creative, you shouldn't be looking at skills to get a job.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Phil: You're learning to pick up.

Tom: That's your trait.

Tom: I think no matter what you're studying at university, you shouldn't be going to it to pick up skills to get a job.

Tom: You should be solely going there to get work experience and networking.

Tom: Because even if you go to uni and you're studying something within the hard sciences, the reality is if you're not there either to demonstrate to scientists working in the university who are doing paid science elsewhere, that they will want to hire you as you go out of university, you're there to get work experience and other jobs.

Tom: Because even if you're in a field of the hard sciences, the first thing that people hiring are going to look at is not what your academic success was other than whatever arbitrary number for you to be considered is.

Tom: They're going to be looking at what work you did there, how you got on working with people and all that sort of thing.

Phil: Yeah, I was going to disagree with you and bring up the hard sciences, but you're absolutely right.

Phil: It ultimately is about learning the skills so you can do the job and networking, especially in a small country like this one.

Phil: So with that, I will shut up and let you talk about some more games.

Tom: But I think the good thing about what they're doing here is, they're producing work that is enjoyable and playable.

Tom: If they're capable of and they're doing it with support of the universities, and they're getting access to other students who might be able to do music for them or whatever else.

Tom: So they're making games that they can sell potentially as Indie games.

Tom: Because the standard of the work that was being produced is certainly, I think, buyable and better than a lot of random slop that is released.

Tom: So I think even if you want it, I don't think it's a good idea to go to university solely on the basis that you are expecting it to make a career for you.

Tom: I think you should be going to university if you are truly taking university in the spirit that university should be, even if you're studying a harder science as opposed to something creative.

Tom: That shouldn't be your only goal.

Tom: But I think with that in mind, it's a reasonable start to producing Indie games, I would think.

Phil: Yeah, I stand corrected and you are absolutely right.

Phil: Being able to interact with students from other, you know, like meeting someone who's good with audio, meeting someone who's good with art, you know, there's probably at least one, there's probably at least the possibility of one indie studio a year being born through that networking at a university where you've got an idea, someone else has an idea, hey, this guy's great at coding, this person's great at music, this person's great at art, you know, the four of us surely together can come up with something that can break through.

Phil: We get funding and hey, if we get funding from the government, who cares where the money comes from, let's get exposure.

Phil: And you know, Untitled Goose Game went on to great commercial and critical success.

Phil: So yeah, you've convinced me otherwise.

Tom: And the next game that I played was called Dance Dance Deception.

Tom: And I think this was creatively, I mean, all of the games certainly had, I wouldn't say any of the games I played was, didn't have a very creative aspect to it, that set them apart from a lot of games that are published and released.

Tom: But this, I think, in terms of taking a crazy concept, to its full completion, really stood out.

Tom: It's called Dance Dance Deception, as I said, and as you can probably guess from that, it is dance themed.

Tom: You're playing as a character who is getting ready to go out to a rave with four friends.

Tom: And the gameplay consists of two things.

Tom: One, there is a dance demon who was possessed one of the dancers, and you've got to try and figure out who it is based on the, based on watching them dance.

Tom: And the other aspect of the gameplay is you are creating your own choreography, and you do this by controlling each section of your dancers body through the thumbsticks and the shoulder buttons.

Tom: And you break the dance into four different elements, and they get put together in the dance animation segment where you can see yourself dance and the others dance, which is what you've got to figure out who the dance team is based on.

Tom: And it is just absolutely hilarious.

Tom: The dancers you create are ridiculous in the best possible way.

Tom: The dialogue between the characters as you're trying to figure out who the possessed dancers is also very funny.

Tom: And the art style fits the sense of humor perfectly as well.

Phil: That sounds very commercial, like in a good way.

Phil: It sounds creative and commercial.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So that's the one that so far you've talked about where it's like, oh yeah, that's not just like a small concept.

Phil: That sounds like a great concept.

Tom: I think that definitely has potentially the easiest to market style to it.

Tom: And it stands out a lot as well.

Tom: I think Blood Legacy as well is something that you could probably go, probably put yourself behind in a similar manner to, just to a completely different audience.

Tom: I think Dance Dance Deception might be on itch, and I recommend anyone goes out and plays it.

Tom: It was also, I think, other than maybe a highly sensitive experience and another game we're going to get to in a minute.

Tom: I think that also felt like the most complete as well.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: I will give that one a go.

Phil: And who made that one again?

Tom: That was Lou Fourie.

Tom: So after a brief break in playing game so that we could watch the mature slash horror compilation of animations as they were separated from the other animations, I went back and played the last game I played on the day, but not the last game I will talk about, which was Coffin Room by Kay Kwan and Lam Le.

Tom: And this was another VR game.

Tom: And I say game, but it ended up, I believe the original concept was to make it into a game.

Tom: But neither of the two people making it knew enough about game development to develop it into a game.

Tom: So I suggest that they should have got, should get at some point in the future, some people they know to develop it into a game.

Tom: But as a D virtual reality animation it was nonetheless another fascinating experience.

Tom: So it's called Coffin Room and it's based on the tiny coffin apartments in Kowloon City in Hong Kong.

Tom: So Kowloon is where I believe the Kowloon walled city was.

Tom: So this might be the descendant of the demolished wall city.

Tom: Instead of having a walled city of apartments all squashed together, you've now got separate apartments blocks, but the apartments within them are incredibly small.

Tom: So the animation is from the perspective of a late middle-aged man who is sick and his experience living in this tiny apartment with his wife, and their son and I think possibly his father or his wife's father.

Tom: And it also has flashbacks to when they were living in a larger apartment.

Tom: So it's an interesting story and an even more interesting setting.

Tom: Like I think the sensory, highly sensitive person game, it is a great use of VR putting you in a different world and allowing you to experience something different.

Phil: In this post-COVID world, so when you're using a VR headset in a public place, like what do they do?

Phil: What theater do they go through to make you feel like you're not going to get sick from the last person that put it on your head?

Tom: None.

Phil: Oh, none.

Phil: So no bacterial wipes or anything like that?

Tom: Nothing like that.

Phil: Oh, cool.

Phil: So they're really not thinking in a corporate way.

Tom: Not until they get the state funding.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So that was Coffin Room.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: And I think that was another definite highlight for me.

Tom: The last game we're going to talk about, I didn't play on the day, but it was a part of the exhibition, and I came across it on Stitch, on, sorry.

Phil: itch.io.

Tom: Itch, itch, itch, yes, itch.

Tom: itch.io is Sea Blindness.

Tom: And this was, according to itch.io, it's got the developer name, but we'll keep it in line with the student name, as we previously used.

Tom: It's by Peng Yu Jeong.

Tom: And it is, it starts off a little bit weirdly, because it's a combination of, it's a D adventure game from a side sort of platforming perspective.

Tom: And the controls are both the keyboard and the mouse.

Tom: So you move with the keyboard, but then you're clicking on things with the mouse.

Tom: So it's at first somewhat confusing to come to grips with, or it was for me anyway.

Tom: And it's basically set on a ship.

Tom: And you walk around the ship talking to people, and they're apparently diving, looking for something.

Tom: And it all seems, you know, pretty rudimentary and basic.

Tom: The art style is interesting enough.

Tom: But then, as you're continuing to play, the fourth wall is broken, and you start to think maybe you're in a game, which narratively makes it more interesting than it was to begin with.

Tom: But then, gameplay-wise, they take this interesting but somewhat cliched opening in a very clever direction.

Tom: So at some point, you're trying to avoid your diving in a submarine, and you're being chased by a giant fish, and there's nothing you can do to avoid it.

Tom: So you've got to figure out, well, what do I do to get rid of this fish, bearing in mind that you're in a game, right?

Tom: So what is the potential solution to this problem?

Phil: Your fish, go hide in a coral?

Tom: No, you go into the game's files, and you delete the fish file.

Phil: Oh, wow.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And then, yep.

Tom: So it's a very clever use of the fourth wall breaking concept.

Phil: What's the name of this one?

Tom: Endless Sea, was it?

Tom: Sea Blindness, sorry.

Phil: Sea Blindness, yeah.

Phil: So is that it?

Tom: That completes our RMIT segment.

Phil: Okay, Game of the Show, if you had to pick any of those.

Tom: That is difficult.

Tom: I think Game of the Show, I'm going to make a tie between Dance Dance, Deception and Coffin Run.

Phil: They both sound fantastic.

Phil: Of the games that I played, I'm going to go with Burnout Bakery by KeonDC.

Phil: But you're not going to commit to Dance Dance, Deception as being better than Coffin Run?

Tom: No, I'm going to make it a tie.

Phil: Come on, roll the die of Destiny at least.

Tom: I should have been raiding them.

Tom: No, we're going to go back to the beginning.

Phil: No, we are not.

Tom: Whatever is the highest score.

Tom: Yes, we are.

Phil: Oh my god.

Phil: Here we go.

Phil: So for new listeners, the die of Destiny, Tom gives his impressions of a game, but his actual score is because we've determined that the arbitrary come from a roll of a ten-sided die, which he uses for his various real life role playing games.

Phil: He's a dungeon master as well.

Tom: Not my real life role playing games.

Tom: This is how I make every decision of my life.

Phil: Yeah, this explains a lot.

Tom: That's why it's the die of Destiny.

Phil: Yeah, righto.

Phil: Okay, die of Destiny.

Tom: It's entirely responsible for my destiny.

Phil: And I've got the mindful mini-fig, mini-fog ready as well to balance out your score.

Tom: So before we roll the dice, I just want to again reiterate that I was surprised, even though I was expecting reasonable quality, given the games that Melbourne has produced recently, I was surprised by the quality of the games being made.

Tom: All of them were both playable.

Tom: And I think, we're not only playable, sorry, but both playable and purchasable.

Tom: If I was buying any of these games in a Steam sale, I buy all my games in Steam sales, I would not be disappointed or feel that I'd wasted my money.

Phil: I feel that the games that I played, I would be happy if I brought them in an itch.io bundle.

Phil: But I did enjoy them nonetheless.

Phil: So I'm going to score Chick Pea a out of

Phil: I'm going to give Who Taught These Police How To Live a out of

Phil: I'm sorry, didn't quite work technically, and Burnout Bakery, I'm going to give a out of

Phil: So you're going to score your games.

Tom: I think that's still a pretty good return.

Phil: I think so.

Tom: The games I played were curated by my sister's friends, so she may have picked out the best ones.

Phil: So you played Blood Legacy.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Score it.

Tom: We'll start from the beginning.

Tom: The Reflection of Atheria, here's the score.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: It gets a out of

Phil: Okay, that's unfortunate.

Phil: I'm going to roll the Mindful Mini Fogg, and I think you actually gave it a out of

Tom: Okay.

Tom: We're going to move on to Enjoy a Treat.

Tom: That gets a out of

Phil: I'm going to roll the Mindful Mini Fogg, and it also got a out of

Tom: I think the Mindful Mini Fogg is very off there, I have to say.

Phil: You think it was higher than that?

Tom: I think so.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: But we'll move on.

Phil: We can't appeal.

Phil: There's not a third appeal.

Tom: I only go by the Dive Destin.

Phil: And I've only got the Mini Fogg's, you know.

Phil: I roll the Mini Fogg's, you know.

Tom: We need a third person.

Phil: Yeah, we need a third.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: The third person is the listener who should be listening to the Threshins and not needing an arbitrary score.

Phil: That's right.

Tom: Moving on to Blood Legacy.

Tom: That gets a zero out of unfortunately.

Tom: No, no, the zero is a sorry.

Tom: Gets a out of

Phil: Oh,

Tom: Yep, a out of

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So there's no need for the Mini Fogg's because that's what I thought actually would.

Phil: I'll roll them.

Phil: .

Tom: Okay.

Tom: It's a out of

Tom: So, that's probably going to be the game of the show.

Phil: Dance Dance Deception.

Tom: Dance Dance Deception gets a out of unfortunately.

Phil: Oh, goodness.

Phil: It got an .

Tom: And Coffin Room, it gets a out of

Phil: It got an .

Tom: Okay.

Tom: And last but not least, Sea Blindness gets a out of

Phil: Oh, it unfortunately got a .

Tom: Well, the Dive Destiny, I think it was a low scoring day if not for that out of

Tom: I think that might be the first out of that we have got.

Tom: So congratulations to Josephine Putri for getting the first ever Tom Towers out of on The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: That's true.

Phil: For her game.

Tom: Blood Legacy.

Phil: Blood Legacy, yeah.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Well, with that, we're going to go on to the news.

Phil: And story number one is Stalker is a janky mess, like Zelensky, but no one wants to admit it because it was made in Ukraine.

Phil: Stalker Heart of Chernobyl, the long-awaited sequel to the cult classic Stalker, has been released, but it's a mixed bag of highs and lows.

Phil: On the one hand, the game captures the eerie atmosphere of the Chernobyl exclusion zone, just like the first game, and offers an open world survival shooter experience that fans have been craving for years.

Phil: They've added an open world element to the game, which sounds terrible.

Phil: However, it's plagued by bugs, performance issues and rough edges that detract from the overall experience.

Phil: I think there was bugs that prevented you from actually finishing the game if you encountered them.

Phil: Despite these flaws, it has already sold million copies in just two short days, proving its popularity amongst gamers, or naivety amongst gamers.

Phil: GSC, the developer, has acknowledged the rough edges, end quote, and released a, quote, day one patch.

Phil: The thing about that patch though, Tom, it's gigabytes, which is the same size of the game itself.

Phil: So basically, it's not a patch, it's not a, hey, here's a few things we want to fix.

Phil: They're basically making you download the whole game again, which is, to me, crazy.

Phil: Now, the game is available on Game Pass, and if your game is good, that can be a good thing, because you get tremendous word of mouth.

Phil: But if it's bad, it means a lot of people who aren't particularly committed to the game, because they didn't have to pay for it, have some opinions about it.

Phil: Microsoft was hoping that this Xbox Windows exclusive would coincide well with the new ad campaign, but it's actually turned out not to be so great.

Phil: Now, you are a huge fan of Stalker, right?

Tom: Yes, I am.

Phil: And you've not yet been able to give it a go.

Phil: I know you're a Game Pass subscriber, so surely you're at least thinking about it.

Tom: Now, I know that it's on Games Pass, I will be playing it.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: We've reviewed this in, just if people want to go back and listen to your impressions of Stalker, there was actually, it's hard to say, years ago in Game Under Episode

Phil: So you can download that from our website or just subscribe and get it that way.

Phil: So what are your thoughts about Stalker ?

Phil: They released that great documentary on YouTube.

Phil: They got a lot of support because they're a Ukraine developer.

Phil: The thing about the YouTube documentary I thought was weird, was GSC is the initials of the founder.

Phil: But they explained that in the documentary because his brother is now running the studio.

Phil: But they never mentioned where the founder is, or what happened to him, or the circumstances under which he left the studio.

Phil: So that part was a bit weird to me.

Phil: But that's just the gossip side of things.

Phil: What's your thinking about Stalker becoming an open world shooter?

Tom: Well, it always was an open world shooter.

Tom: Really?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: It was not open world only in the sense that there were loading screens between certain areas.

Tom: So depending on how you define open world, it didn't necessarily qualify.

Tom: And it also had, of course, a narrative that directed you through things in a certain order.

Tom: But no, once you got past the opening section, you could basically wander around as you pleased.

Phil: My impression when I was playing it though, was that it was directed like throughout the whole game.

Phil: It was more of a directed experience rather than...

Tom: It is and it isn't.

Tom: That's why I say it depends on how you define open world.

Tom: So putting it into a more traditional definition of it, I don't think is that huge of a step away from what the game was like.

Tom: So that part, that part I don't think is too much of a change.

Tom: But here's the thing though, that I'm honestly confused about.

Tom: That it is news that the game is a janky and potentially unplayable mess.

Tom: Because for anyone who has played the original game, or was a fan of the original game, or followed what was happening with it.

Tom: One, I assume no one should have been surprised it has taken this long to be released.

Tom: If anything, it came out faster than one might have expected.

Tom: But two, the game originally, when it was released, had a litany of issues and was unplayable for a large proportion of people.

Tom: And only through a really long period of patches, and not only patches but mods that fix things as well, became anything like a polished experience.

Tom: So this should really not be a surprise to anyone.

Phil: It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who remembers what happened years ago.

Phil: And you've reminded me, and you're right.

Phil: And the other thing to consider is what everyone's saying and the people who don't want to say bad things about this game because it's being made by people who are in a war zone, effectively, is that, yeah, I mean, like this does have a history of being released being a bit janky, or being janky.

Phil: And I don't think it'd be getting the criticism it is had it not been a game past game.

Phil: I think most, it would have been released.

Phil: People would have said, oh, Stalker is out.

Phil: You know, this is a great second chance game like Cyberpunk.

Phil: You know, get it in a year from now and it'll be fine.

Phil: Or get it in eight months from now and it'll be fine.

Phil: And honestly, I know for sure if I download this game in eight months, it'll be fine.

Phil: But it's just the way that some of these games are, that they just need to be exposed to people.

Phil: You know, at a certain point, the game was delayed several, several times.

Phil: It has been years since the last game.

Phil: So, you know, I don't know that my expectations had I thought about them, would be any different than the outcome that we're witnessing.

Phil: Given that it's on Game Pass right now, and you know that it is, are you going to go and download it tonight?

Phil: Or are you going to be more like, I'll just wait till they patch it.

Phil: I'll check it out in, you know, six months from now.

Tom: Given that it's on Game Pass, I'm definitely going to play it.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But there's a reason I had not bought it yet.

Phil: Well, I didn't know if you knew it had been released.

Phil: Because I figured-

Tom: I knew it was released.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I would have thought-

Tom: But it's not a game I will consider, and buying on release at all.

Tom: Even if I could find it a key for a good price, I was not considering buying it early on in its release cycle, for the fact that it was going to be a broken mess on release.

Phil: Even though Stalker, if I'm not wrong, it's like in your top five best games of all time, isn't it?

Tom: Definitely.

Tom: It's a contender for best game ever.

Phil: I would have thought that just to add a support for the developer, being that it's one of your top five games, that you would have gotten it.

Phil: But I've fallen off Yakuza in the last few years as well, because of various changes to the platform and all the rest of it.

Phil: I see my job as being done with Yakuza.

Phil: I was out there proselytizing for over a decade, for people to pay attention to it.

Phil: Now that it's actually popular, it's like, yeah, all right.

Phil: You know, I don't really need to pay that anymore, you know.

Tom: Well, apparently it's sold a million copies already, so maybe my work is done as well.

Phil: Well, it's sold, your work is done as well.

Phil: It's sold a million copies.

Phil: Are you on the bandwagon?

Phil: And by bandwagon, I mean the single person scooter that I ride that Killzone needs to come back?

Phil: Like, or is it?

Tom: I don't think it needs to come back.

Phil: It'd be nice if it came back.

Tom: You think so?

Phil: I don't think it'd be successful.

Tom: I like that it hasn't come back.

Tom: Because again, Guerrilla Games, you have to give a lot of credit.

Tom: They stopped making it when they got sick of making it.

Phil: Yeah, well actually I'd argue that they got sick of making it and then they made Skyfall.

Tom: Shadowfall.

Phil: Shadowfall, yeah.

Tom: Well, they claim that was the last one they were interested in, but I certainly can see that.

Phil: The second story, not to pile on, but Microsoft Flight Sim came out and it appears to be a crash landing.

Phil: Credit for this goes to multiple sources as was the case for the last story.

Phil: Asobo, the maker of Plague Tale, Innocence and Disneyland Adventures, received great credit for their reboot of Microsoft Flight Simulator after about a year lapse in the series.

Phil: This week, the sequel, Microsoft Flight Simulator has encountered a turbulent launch.

Phil: Players have reported technical and server issues preventing them from playing the game at all after paying between and USD, leading to a sea of negative reviews on Steam.

Phil: Despite efforts to address the problems, access and bandwidth issues persist as more users are obviously buying it and coming on, it's getting worse.

Phil: They basically have admitted, and I'm a huge fan of Asobo for their work.

Phil: It's a relatively small studio, I guess, in the scheme of things.

Phil: But basically, they said that they've been overwhelmed by the number of people playing it.

Phil: The lead developer, Newman, said that at the beginning, when players start, they're basically requesting data from a server and that server retrieves it from a database.

Phil: This database has a cache and was tested with simulated users, but the high number of players is still overwhelming it.

Phil: Basically, just to fill everyone in, when they came out with Microsoft Flight Simulator after doing nothing but license games for years and then going on to make the tremendous games in the Plague Tale series, they said the second time around, what they're going to want to deliver has to use the Cloud.

Phil: So basically, they're going to stream the content in.

Phil: They're not going to make you download a two terabyte game so that you can just fly anywhere in the world at any time.

Phil: Once they know that you're going to fly from Los Angeles to Paris, or Los Angeles to Alice Springs, then they're going to stream that data in.

Phil: So obviously, with a majority of the content streaming in, on day one, they tested it with people.

Phil: They got way more than that and it just didn't work and it crashed.

Phil: That makes sense, right?

Phil: This is another game available on Game Pass.

Phil: Microsoft was hoping this Xbox Windows exclusive would coincide well with the new ad campaign.

Phil: Two games in the same week, these things that were supposed to highlight Game Pass have drawn negative.

Tom: I think, so the fundamental issue here is that you have to essentially stream the game and they don't have enough service for the number of people who are playing.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Basically, the company that's name is in the game, Microsoft, runs Azure, which is a cloud storage, a cloud streaming service.

Phil: They've got the Xbox streaming service.

Phil: But for whatever reason, Sobo is saying, we tested with people.

Phil: No.

Phil: Test it with a million people.

Phil: Microsoft Flight Sim, they had to have, well, maybe they did know.

Phil: Maybe they looked at their history.

Phil: They would have had to have looked at their history and gone, oh, how many people have been online with this game before in the past?

Phil: And they would have said, oh, about at one time.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: Well, you know what?

Phil: Let's test it with

Phil: Hey, went well.

Phil: But then they obviously got more than that because the game was available on Game Pass.

Phil: So they've probably got like a million people, you know?

Phil: And, you know, back to the story.

Phil: Stalker sold a million copies, even though it's available for free on Game Pass.

Phil: That's incredible.

Tom: And so I'm awaiting my marketing fees, royalties, any day now.

Phil: So like in both of these cases, these are studios that I'm sympathetic of.

Phil: And I'm sorry that this happened because obviously the game is fine.

Phil: It's just that the infrastructure that Microsoft has, the if anyone is positioned to have the infrastructure available for streaming services, it's Microsoft.

Tom: You would think so.

Phil: But I think in this case, I have to throw a sober under the bus because had they told Microsoft, yeah, we're going to need two million users.

Phil: We need to have two million users streaming from day one.

Phil: Microsoft would have went, yeah, that's fine.

Phil: We've got million people streaming Word and Excel all day long.

Phil: Go ahead.

Phil: And so I think in this case, it was probably a sober not understanding the appeal of their product and how important it was, that has undercut the issue.

Phil: So that's my synopsis of it.

Phil: I've been obviously thinking about it a lot more than you would, but do you have any further thoughts on that?

Tom: I think it's ridiculous.

Tom: You would think that it is as bad as it seemingly is.

Tom: If they're going to go down the route of their ridiculous solution to how massive their game is, you would think that they would need to have enough servers in place for the amount of people who are going to play it.

Tom: I don't think there's no excuse for it.

Phil: I think you're right.

Phil: If you're streaming, someone at Microsoft should have said, hey guys, look, I know you're thinking in a Plague Tale, Disneyland Adventures type thing, is not going to be anywhere near enough.

Phil: We're giving this shit away for free.

Phil: If you look at other games that we're giving away for free that rely on streaming data, you guys should be thinking more of million, not

Phil: But none of that happened.

Phil: I've got to hang that on Microsoft, I think, because they're the experts with Azure in providing server data, serving infrastructure.

Tom: Yes, I think they should have enough data to know that this was going to happen.

Phil: Yes, absolutely.

Tom: With how bad it is.

Phil: Yes, it shouldn't be a discredit to them.

Phil: So final pylon, it's not really a pylon, because I think it's all right, but Microsoft has a new ad campaign called, This is an Xbox.

Phil: Have you heard of this?

Tom: Yes, I've seen it on the vgpress.com.

Phil: Yes, and it highlights the versatility of the Xbox, basically saying that you can experience Xbox without buying a traditional console.

Phil: This is appealing to people who don't want to buy a console.

Phil: It means that you can play Xbox games on Samsung TVs, Amazon Firesticks, mobile phones, MetaQuest that sort of thing.

Phil: And so they have a picture of these various things saying, this is an Xbox and it will show a Steam Deck or a laptop or Quest or a TV remote or a Samsung TV.

Phil: And then they'll say, this is not an Xbox and then show a Bento box or a Cat box or whatever.

Phil: And you know, you can get stickers from them for free that says, this is an Xbox, this is not an Xbox.

Phil: And basically, Phil Spencer, they had him putting a, this is not an Xbox on a Petrol browser, which no doubt was removed immediately after that video was made because they don't want to get in legal trouble because they're Microsoft.

Phil: Yeah, it's a decent campaign in that it's communicating.

Phil: They've got billboards, the whole thing, that Xbox is a broad gaming experience, not just a console.

Phil: And they're trying to push that whole Netflix, you know, you don't need to commit to buying some $thing or several hundred dollar thing to play our games.

Phil: You can play them anywhere.

Phil: Now, Forbes gets the credit for this story.

Phil: And they say, quote, it just exemplifies problems with the overall Xbox brand right now, which feels like nothing.

Phil: Increasingly, Xbox feels more and more like a third party publisher that for some reason still makes hardware.

Phil: There are jokes with this campaign that you could also show a PlayStation and say this is an Xbox due to what would normally be exclusives coming to the console, though you can't cloud stream Game Pass games there yet.

Phil: End quote.

Phil: And I think that's a, it's a valuable point.

Phil: Like, so what are you doing?

Phil: Because the only people that subscribe to Game Pass are hardcore gamers.

Phil: Um, and so, but at the same time, you're saying to the hardcore gamers, well, you don't really need to buy an Xbox.

Phil: You can just play it on PC.

Phil: I'm not, I'm not kidding.

Phil: I don't see someone with a Samsung TV going, oh, this is great.

Phil: I didn't know that.

Phil: I can, I can just stream Xbox games.

Phil: I'll just pay X dollars a month and start streaming games.

Phil: Yeah, anyway, you can obviously hear I'm full clumped about this.

Phil: Can you give us any insights?

Tom: I think that criticism is very accurate.

Tom: It's not so much this isn't Xboxes.

Tom: You can play games pass on this.

Phil: Right, right.

Phil: But again, what role does a console play?

Phil: Because you've got game pass on PC.

Phil: So you can play pretty much any Xbox game on your PC without having to pay for a console, right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So okay, well, that's all right.

Phil: But you know, so what's the argument for buying a PlayStation ?

Phil: Astro Bot?

Phil: The next God of War game, if and when it ever comes out?

Phil: The next Naughty Dog game, if and when it comes out, like?

Tom: Well, there's a reason I don't have a PS

Phil: Well, that's just it.

Phil: That's just it.

Phil: So it's kind of saying-

Tom: There's more of an argument for PSthan Xbox.

Phil: How so?

Tom: Oh, yeah.

Tom: At least there are some exclusives on the PS

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: There's still exclusives on the PlayStation

Phil: There's just not enough of them, in my view, to justify the purchase of an additional thing.

Phil: Yeah, so it's getting a lot of criticism.

Phil: I think it's something that they should have done four years ago.

Phil: They've got to commit to what they're doing.

Phil: They've already committed to saying Xbox is everywhere.

Phil: You can play it on all these other platforms.

Phil: They're now letting you stream games that you haven't bought on the Xbox, on the Xbox, for certain platforms.

Phil: So, yeah, I don't know.

Phil: I mean, it's a good brand message, but it's not a good way to sell consoles.

Phil: But maybe that's where Microsoft has been for the last few years anyway.

Phil: I just don't see the point in them releasing another console.

Phil: But apparently, they are.

Tom: I don't know how good of a brand message it is either.

Phil: Well, if you're selling the subscription...

Tom: Is the subscription app on your phone called Xbox, or is it called Xbox Games Pass or Games Pass?

Phil: It would be Xbox Games Pass.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: If I search Xbox on iPhone, the result is Xbox app.

Tom: So that would be why.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Well, the Xbox app is just...

Tom: I don't know if you can actually play it.

Phil: No, you can't.

Phil: It's just basically a way to link to your friends and see other stuff.

Phil: I've got to download it as well.

Phil: But Game Pass is available on Android.

Phil: I'm not sure it's available on Apple.

Tom: Well, let's go to the Play Store.

Phil: He's dual wielding, Tom Towers, Apple Phone and Samsung.

Tom: There is an Xbox app on the Play Store as well.

Phil: Well, we knew that.

Tom: And there's no Game Pass.

Tom: So if they're re-branding what is essentially Game Pass as Xbox, which I think they've done on PC as well, that's why.

Tom: So essentially Xbox is no longer the console.

Phil: Right.

Tom: It is essentially Game Pass.

Phil: Exactly right.

Tom: But we were talking about the Steam Link.

Phil: Oh yeah.

Phil: Well, yeah, this is our final...

Tom: The Xbox is now just Game Pass as Steam Link.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: That's what they're saying.

Phil: Final news story is some Steam news.

Phil: A couple of things happened with Steam.

Phil: First was, I think it's the th anniversary of Half-Life

Phil: So that happened and they have a documentary on YouTube about why Episode didn't come out and why it was left for dead.

Phil: Huh?

Phil: Huh?

Tom: Huh?

Phil: Actually, Episode never came out because everyone jumped over to develop Left for Dead.

Phil: And then by the time they came back to do Episode of Half-Life the third entry in the episode of content for that game, they were like, well, we need a generational link.

Phil: We need a reason to play this game or launch this game.

Phil: They thought that at that point the engine was dated and that they shouldn't release a substandard game.

Phil: So whatever, but importantly, to our Australian audience, Steam Deck is now launched in Australia.

Phil: You can get the base model hard drive GB LCD for $

Phil: You can get the OLED GB for $

Phil: Or the TB OLED for $

Phil: I think this is fantastic because my lifestyle basically lends itself to being able to access my Steam library remotely on a regular basis.

Phil: So I'm excited by this.

Phil: Yeah, I'm looking forward to paying $Australian dollars for Steam Deck, even though in probably a year, they're going to come out with Steam Deck

Phil: Any interest on your part?

Tom: I think it's very, very appealing, but I don't know if I would actually use it very much in reality.

Phil: I tell you, I had to look at a lot of reviews because this thing looks bigger than the Atari Lynx.

Phil: It looks heavier than the Atari Lynx, most definitely will be.

Phil: The button controls look a little too close to the edge of the console, including the cross pad, but everyone says it's good.

Phil: So, I've looked at a thousand, more than a thousand, I've looked at three YouTube reviews of this and everyone says it's great.

Phil: I don't think I'm going to tinker with it.

Phil: I'm not going to turn it into an emulation toy.

Phil: I just want it straight out of the box to live my stream games.

Phil: That'd be fine.

Phil: In other stream news, steam news, I think this is more of a story that you wanted to champion.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: In its current form, apparently, they're going to be retiring the steam family sharing option.

Phil: So the family sharing basically allows you to share your library with another member of your family.

Phil: So I buy a game and I want my daughter to be able to play it, so I share it with her profile kind of thing, right?

Tom: Where the game under family here?

Phil: Yes.

Phil: We are a family.

Phil: I think we are related in some sense of the word.

Phil: I've certainly talked to you more than I've talked to anyone else in my family in the last whatever years.

Tom: So we may also dabble in it.

Tom: But the requirement now is that you have to be in the same house to set it up.

Phil: What are they like GPSing you or something?

Phil: Are they geolocating you?

Tom: I assume it's done by IP maybe.

Phil: Oh, Jesus.

Tom: Are you right?

Phil: For serious?

Tom: Yes.

Tom: Really?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Well, what if my brother lives in Melbourne?

Tom: Too bad.

Phil: Wow.

Tom: He's got to move to Queensland.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Tom: But there may be a way around.

Tom: VPN.

Tom: No, not VPN.

Phil: Yeah, but if I have a VPN and I say I'm in Melbourne.

Tom: Well, we attempted to do it via VPN and it didn't work.

Tom: But a different solution I've heard of is mobile phone.

Tom: So if you log in to the Steam account of your distant family member, distant in terms of physical space.

Phil: Not intimacy.

Tom: On your mobile phone, on the same Wi-Fi network, I think you can potentially set it up that way.

Phil: Well, that's a big reach.

Tom: But if you can't do that, here's the logic I assume behind this decision is, that people who would otherwise buy two copies of this one game, will not buy two copies of it and just buy one and play it between them, right?

Phil: Right.

Tom: This is the standard line of thinking I would assume.

Tom: Now, I don't have the data on this, of course, but anecdotally, among the people I share games with, the polar opposite of that is true.

Tom: The result of this will be rather than us buying more games, so that we can play, each of us get our own copy of the one game that we would have otherwise shared.

Tom: We may not buy a single copy of it.

Tom: We certainly would be encouraged to buy it on Gog over Steam, for example, or we might not buy the game at all, because there are a lot of games that we've all purchased for in my closest Steam family, three people, for us to each play and have a look at together, that we would not have been interested in buying if only one of us was to play it.

Tom: And we certainly would not have been interested in buying each individually a copy of the game to play.

Tom: So the corporate thinking is definitely that it will reduce sales, but I think the reality is, in our case anyway, that it will, sorry, that it would increase sales, but in our experience, it would likely reduce them.

Phil: Yeah, but this is exactly right.

Phil: This is like the piracy thing, where they say, oh, well, people downloaded our game.

Phil: That means we missed out on sales.

Phil: Yeah, but if you got people who downloaded it and bought it because they were exposed to the game, the other were never gonna buy your game anyway.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah, and in most cases where a game's been shared with me, I've been like, the reason why someone's sharing it with you is because they're passionate about how great this game is.

Phil: And uniformly, when I've been shared a game, I go, you're absolutely right.

Phil: I'm gonna download and buy this game.

Phil: Because I'm not gonna go through the hassle of going through the shared library thing and all the rest of it.

Phil: It's like, hey, thanks for exposing this game for me.

Phil: And it should be called game sharing.

Phil: And if they want, cap it at a certain number of hours or something like that, or cap it to a certain number of games per month.

Phil: But really, this is the best marketing available for them.

Phil: It's word of mouth guerrilla marketing.

Phil: Go out and tell your friends, this is a great game and I want you to play it with me.

Tom: I think the only limitation should be that one person can play it at the same time.

Tom: Just as with a physical copy of a game.

Phil: Yeah, absolutely, because it's just...

Phil: Yeah, you're right, because if we were neighbors, I'd say, hey man, here's this disc, take it for a week.

Phil: Take it for a week, play it, it's fantastic.

Phil: And then I'll come back in a week and I go, hey man, can I have that game back?

Phil: And you go, I haven't really finished it, I love this game.

Phil: And you'd go out and buy a copy of it.

Phil: If you didn't like it, you go, sure man, here have it back.

Phil: I'm never gonna play it again.

Phil: You never would have bought the game anyway.

Phil: It's just a way of people to demo a game.

Tom: Or play it to completion.

Phil: In a hasty fashion, yes.

Tom: Or slowly and meticulously, savoring every moment.

Phil: I think that you're right, they should keep the sharing limited so that if someone else wants to play it.

Phil: And this was true on some platform, I forget what platform it was, but at some point I was sharing games with someone and I'd go in and I'd want to play it.

Phil: And I was like, this guy's in there.

Phil: It's like, I have to text him and go, hey man, can you get out because I want to play it?

Phil: Because I'm the one actually paid for it.

Tom: Was that person me?

Phil: Probably.

Phil: Well, that's a shame.

Phil: It's a shame.

Phil: So yeah, good news, bad news for Steam and apparently all bad news for Microsoft this week.

Phil: And with that, I want to thank you for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: So there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now on our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question or comment, please go to the home page of gameunder.net for the show that you're currently listening to, episode

Phil: We're not going to...

Phil: We've run out of time to talk about many of the games that we want to talk about, including Call of Duty Black Ops which you'll be able to give some impressions of in the next episode.

Tom: Also, First Center Laksa, which I won't be able to give impressions of.

Phil: No, and we've also...

Phil: You've been playing Soma, which I'm going to probably go and try and play tonight, actually.

Phil: So we can have some joint impressions of that.

Tom: We might also have impressions of the Crimson Diamond.

Phil: Oh, that'd be good.

Phil: You almost finished that one, right?

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: Okay, so with that, thank you again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Game Under Podcast 162

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:09 Intro

0:00:42 Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs

0:27:07 The Mindful Minifig/ Fogg

0:28:45 Spoilers Here

0:42:45 SOMA - First Impressions

0:58:46 UFO 50 - First Impressions

1:08:40 How it all Started Segment

Transcript
Phil: Hello, and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg, and I'm joined by the great Tom Towers.

Phil: Tom, how are you?

Tom: I'm as great as ever.

Phil: Sounds like it.

Phil: I figured today we'd skip the news, and, you know, it is sort of coming up to Halloween, the spooky season, you've been playing some spooky games.

Phil: So I thought we might have a games-focused podcast this week.

Phil: What do you think?

Tom: That sounds good to me.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: And probably the first game we will talk about is a game that I don't know much about.

Phil: It's called Amnesia, Machine for Pigs.

Tom: A Machine for Pigs.

Phil: What is it?

Tom: A Machine for Pigs.

Phil: A Machine for Pigs.

Phil: Now, this game came out in

Phil: Is this the first time that you've played it?

Tom: I think a long time ago, I played it for about two minutes, and then moved on to something else.

Tom: But this is the first time I've played it properly.

Phil: We talked about it a couple of episodes ago because the developer is the Chinese room who also developed, well, what was the name of that oil deck game that you were playing?

Tom: Still wakes the deep.

Phil: And Dear Esther, more notably.

Phil: And features some of the same designers, I believe, Dan Pinchbeck and Peter Howell.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: And in this, I'm not sure if she was involved in the music on Still Wakes the Deep, but this features the composer.

Tom: I think it's Jessica Curry.

Tom: Hopefully, I've got her name right.

Tom: Who also did the music for Dear Esther.

Phil: Yeah, absolutely.

Phil: Jessica Curry was the composer of this game as well.

Phil: As I said, it was released in on pretty much everything.

Phil: It's available today on Switch and Windows.

Phil: But if you have your PlayStation and Xbox One, you can still get it there, and it's available on Linux too.

Phil: So, and even Mac.

Phil: It's a survival horror game, am I right?

Tom: That's correct.

Tom: It's part of the Amnesia series by Frictional Games.

Tom: I think this was the second one in the series after A Dark Descent.

Tom: And Frictional Games, while also being a publisher, is a developer, and they developed the first game in the series, and also the preceding series, which I think is somehow vaguely related, the Penumbra series.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All of those words seem very familiar to me, but I haven't interacted with this series at all.

Phil: Is it a first person, third person?

Phil: Tell us about the game.

Tom: It's a first person horror game, and it's got some interesting mechanics.

Tom: You can basically pick up items by clicking on them with the left mouse button and carry them around and throw them to distract enemies, and that sort of thing.

Tom: And if you need to, for example, put a fuse in a fuse box, you'll have to, you pick up the fuse and you carry it to the fuse box and just sort of stick it in there.

Tom: So it's a very, and if you want to open a door, you click on the door and pull it open with the mouse and the same with levers, turning them on and off, those sorts of things.

Tom: So it's a very tactile experience, which I think was the case with previous games in the series as well, and it was the case with Penumbra

Phil: Yeah, this is that genre of game like Deus Ex, where you can open every draw, you can pick up anything, realistic physics as well.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah, I detest this form of gaming.

Phil: Have you played a game like this before, like a Deus Ex or System Shock?

Tom: I played the original Deus Ex and a little bit of both sequels.

Phil: Yeah, and people love them.

Phil: I mean, people do love them.

Phil: And I think Bethesda-

Tom: Well, the original Deus Ex is one of the greatest games of all time without any question.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: I think we need to go into details to why you hate the original Deus Ex.

Phil: Look, the original Deus Ex, I would have probably played for less than seven minutes just to turn it on to see if it started.

Phil: But I played the more recent Deus Ex games and games like this.

Phil: Like I said, there's a game Bethesda makes that's similar to this with the realistic physics and interactive everything.

Phil: And I just find them tremendously tedious.

Phil: In that it's giving me way more things to do than I need to do.

Phil: And I guess when I'm playing a game, I want to be immersed in it, but I don't want to open a drawer just because I can open a drawer if there's no payoff for opening that drawer.

Tom: I think in the case of this as opposed to something like Deus Ex, it's a lot more linear and pretty obvious as to what you actually need to interact with or not.

Tom: So I don't think it's really the same sort of experience as something like a Deus Ex.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So it's more guided than that.

Phil: And there's a meaning for the things that are in the world.

Tom: I would say in the case of Deus Ex, that's true as well because it's rare that you'll be interacting with something in Deus Ex that either doesn't give you some form of environmental storytelling pay off or is related to how you're actually going to solve the problem you're faced with.

Phil: And that would be natural because when Deus Ex was originally released in you wouldn't have been able to have a completely immersive, interactive world.

Tom: I think Deus Ex is actually a more interactive world than most modern games.

Phil: Oh, really?

Tom: Yeah, I would say so.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I think figuring out what you're interacting with and how it relates to what you're trying to solve is a question of creativity because there'll be a lot of things where you wouldn't think it would actually have any effect on what you're trying to do, but it actually does.

Phil: And I think what you're also describing is an incredible machine type game where, or even like a LucasArts point and click adventure where you have to figure out that if you pick up this and you pick up this other thing, then they'll interact.

Phil: And that's, to me, that's a puzzle based type of game.

Tom: But in the case of a machine for pigs, it doesn't, it's not really in-depth like that at all.

Tom: And it's very linear.

Tom: There aren't really creative solutions to particular problems.

Tom: It's really, there is probably the main gameplay mechanic in it is puzzle solving.

Tom: And it's really figuring it out.

Tom: The only way to solve the problem that you can, it doesn't really give you creative ways to solve a problem.

Tom: It's really just here is the solution to the problem and you've got to figure out what that is for the most part.

Tom: And a lot of the puzzle solving will also be based on, you can see what you need to do, but you've got to find the correct item to solve the problem within the world.

Tom: So a lot of it is based on exploration and looking for certain things like that.

Tom: The other main gameplay mechanic involved is with the monsters in the game.

Tom: And that's really pretty simple stealth or running away from to the correct area for the most part.

Tom: So I think this came after Amnesia The Dark Descent, which was praised for being very innovative horror, in that you couldn't attack the monster, you could only hide.

Tom: And I think the gameplay was a lot more complex than it is here.

Tom: This and I think a lot less linear as well.

Tom: So when this first came out, I think a lot of people hated it.

Tom: And it was not appreciated at the time.

Tom: I think over time, an appreciation for it has developed, but it is still probably for the most part seen as the worst in the series.

Tom: And I'm coming to it without having played properly any of the other games in the series.

Tom: So I'm not coming into it with many expectations.

Tom: And I'm also coming in to it as a fan of Dear Esther, and to a lesser extent, still wakes the deep as well.

Tom: So I was coming into it with expectations based on the Chinese Rooms, other games, as opposed to other games in the Amnesia series.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So this one is the only game in the series that was made by the Chinese Room.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: All of the other games were developed by Fictional Games.

Tom: And I think originally, it was meant to be a spin-off rather than a main title in the series, but it grew into being a main title in the series as it was developed.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, tell us a little bit about the setting.

Phil: We know it's a third-person survival horror.

Phil: You're solving environmental puzzles.

Phil: What is the setting?

Tom: So the setting is Edwardian London, I think in the very late s, not long before the First World War.

Tom: And it begins, you wake up in a bed that has a cage around it.

Tom: And as you're playing, you discover that you are a successful and wealthy industrialist of the era who went to, I think, Mexico, the New World, and had something of an epiphany there.

Tom: And as you are exploring the game, you speak to another character through these sort of intercom telephone machines, and you also uncover notes that you've written and have various flashback to events in Mexico and relate to your career as an industrialist.

Tom: And when you wake up, you've got two sons who you are trying to find within your mansion, which is built next to your factory.

Tom: And that's basically the main conceit of the plot as it begins.

Phil: So you're looking for your sons who are trapped or missing within your factory, slash, and or mention?

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: And you've gone to Mexico, had some sort of spiritual type experience there, and now you're back in late s London.

Tom: Correct, yes.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: All right.

Phil: Well, that's just like the oil rig game.

Phil: This is a perfect setting.

Phil: It's set up pretty well and it gets to introduce a lot of, you know, contrasting cultures and spiritualities.

Phil: So you're a rich dude.

Phil: Why is it important that you're a rich dude for the game and or the story?

Tom: Well, it's important you are a rich dude because you've built this machine which has revolutionized meat production.

Tom: And it is a machine for pigs, I believe, hence the title.

Phil: Now, obviously, one just could immediately, your kids have gone missing, you've invented a machine called pigs.

Phil: You're a capitalist, you know.

Phil: So, you know, on the face of it, you're gonna think that maybe this thing that you created that also created your wealth is the thing that's gonna destroy the thing that means the most to you, which is your children.

Phil: But it can't be that basic.

Phil: There's gotta be, because of the Mexico Aztec stuff, there's gotta be some weird spiritual dimension.

Phil: And because this is the five of horror, there's gotta be ghosts and ghoulies and bad, bad dudes.

Phil: So yeah.

Tom: I think we can't avoid going to spoilers later on.

Tom: So we'll get to that in more detail later on.

Phil: It is an year old game at this point.

Phil: And I think that even if it is quote spoiled for you from a story sense, it would still be enjoyable as a game, even if you knew what was going on, because a lot of this stuff is, you know, is it easy to see though as you're going?

Phil: Like how early on did you see these twists and turns?

Phil: Or is that part of the horror?

Tom: I think it's worth playing without spoilers.

Tom: Because I think as a horror game, as in terms of like the plot, it's very enjoyable.

Tom: I think thematically it is just as interesting.

Tom: I think the themes, it doesn't matter if they're spoiled.

Tom: I think you'll enjoy it just as much thinking about the themes with someone else's perspective or perhaps you might enjoy it even more than you would have without having a discussion about that beforehand.

Tom: But I think it's worth playing for the plot without spoilers.

Tom: So I'll try, I'll avoid spoilers to begin with.

Phil: Until the very end, okay.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: But I would say the writing is heavily inspired by Heart of Darkness.

Tom: The story very much builds on someone from the colonial era.

Tom: And a lot of people don't necessarily know, but the peak of the British Empire is actually just before the First World War, which is probably not necessarily what a lot of people think of when they think of the British Empire.

Tom: But that was actually when it was at the absolute height of its powers, just before they fucked everything up completely, as is generally the case for the most part.

Tom: But it's very much inspired by Heart of Darkness and the literary tradition of these innocent colonists going to a colonial project or being exposed to a non-colonial culture, and having an epiphany there, and then coming back and being totally changed and seeing the society that they live in from a totally new perspective.

Tom: And the way they work that into the horror is, I think, really well done.

Tom: I think the mystery of looking for your children, it's pretty obvious from the beginning.

Tom: You're going along and as you're exploring the mansion, you'll see either your children running off and asking, telling you to chase them and that sort of thing, which is very clearly, I think, obviously visions.

Tom: So it's implying that something may or may not have happened to them already.

Tom: And as you're reading the notes, you discover you've been in bed because you have this fever, which you've had on and off since going to Mexico.

Tom: And I think as a horror gameplay experience, it's a fascinating game because for the majority of the game, you're actually in absolutely no danger whatsoever.

Tom: There are no monsters except in very specific areas, yet it manages to build this really powerful tension throughout the whole game so that uncovering the story itself becomes part of the horror, as opposed to avoiding monsters.

Tom: And for me, it was actually probably one of the most tense horror games I felt that didn't lose its tension at any point.

Tom: Whereas a lot of games where they'll have more monster interactions and more literal danger in terms of gameplay, you'll end up sort of knowing where that's going to be the case.

Tom: Like in Resident Evil, I think that's usually very much the case.

Tom: So in Resident Evil, you'll be confronted more often and more consistently with enemies, but they'll give you moments where very obviously you're not going to be in any sort of danger, and it gives you a good amount of downtime.

Tom: Here, weirdly, through doing the opposite thing, for me anyway, it didn't really feel like there was any sort of downtime to the tension.

Tom: That was there from the beginning to the end.

Tom: And for the payoff at the end, where you're seeing what the real purpose of the machine for pigs was, and you're seeing what is actually going on, you personally are not in any sort of danger, but the horror tension that is there is at its height, and is greater than when you are actually in any sort of danger yourself.

Tom: So I thought in terms of gameplay, by turning the usual horror structure on its head, it achieved a more powerful tension than the majority of horror games.

Tom: I think the closest thing to that I can think of is probably Silent Hill, which is another game where often you're not actually in any actual danger, yet the level of tension you're feeling doesn't go down.

Tom: It doesn't give you any respite, even when you're not being chased by a monster.

Phil: The game was well received when it came out.

Phil: It was originally supposed to come out for Halloween in but then was delayed because the expectations for the game had built up so much that they wanted to make sure they got it right according to what I've been reading.

Phil: But it came out to solid s from publishers like Edge magazine.

Phil: So a for them would be like a Phil Fogg .

Phil: And it got broadly s, s, peaking with a from PC Gamer.

Phil: So yeah, this game was much better received.

Phil: And I think the name probably...

Tom: I think that was actually a disappointing reception because the previous one, I think, was way better received than that.

Tom: Yeah, so the Metacritic for A Machine for Pigs is odd, and the Metacritic for The Dark Descent is

Tom: And I think the fan reception was even worse.

Tom: I think it was very negatively received by fans of the series.

Phil: Which you can understand.

Phil: I mean, if they're coming out, you know, if I'm just thinking about how I would do it, I've released this game, it's been successful.

Phil: So I'm like, okay, well, we work on number three, let's get this other studio to do a quick one.

Phil: They started developing

Phil: It was supposed to come out in October

Phil: And yeah, you can see why people would be critical of it, because it's a different studio making it, it's a different theme.

Phil: And fictional games basically said, from what I've read here, that they thought that this would be a quick game and we could get it out, but then we, the Chinese room came up with this construct that was so interesting that they decided, look, this game deserves better than just a quick turnout, take some time on it and get it right.

Phil: So I can see why the quote fan backlash would be there, because it wasn't exactly like the first game, which is what most people would be expecting going into a direct sequel.

Phil: But obviously, the Chinese room put their own stamp on it.

Phil: So yeah, it seems basically from what you've been saying so far, that's pretty positive.

Tom: Definitely.

Tom: Like I said, I think the only other horror game I can really think of that manages to maintain a similar level of tension throughout is probably the original Silent Hill, which coming from me is very high praise.

Tom: Silent Hill is, I think it's one of the few games I would consider giving a out of to.

Phil: Yeah, I haven't played the original, but I played the second one and the fantastic one that was on the Wii, that was made by the guy that would go on to make, what's his name, Sam, whatever his name is.

Phil: I think he went on to make her story.

Phil: But yeah, and I get what you're saying.

Tom: Sam Barlow.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: Yeah, that game was brilliant.

Phil: And he went on to do The Quarry and the other interactive game that came out for PlayStation.

Phil: And just for anyone wondering, yes, this is the part where Phil talks about games he can't remember the names of.

Phil: So how does, I mean, are there baddies in this game?

Phil: Like how do they, how are you, you're not threatened yourself.

Phil: So is there a need to see these guys or is it just there to sort of scare you, something on the periphery?

Tom: Well, there are moments where you are threatened yourself.

Tom: There are these pig-like humanoid monsters who you encounter on and off.

Tom: But there's maybe about, I don't know, four or five encounters with them in total.

Phil: Wow.

Tom: And you're more likely to encounter them through glimpses where neither of you can get to each other.

Phil: So it's able to hold the tension the whole time with just that little interaction with some antagonists?

Tom: Yes.

Tom: And I will say the tension comes, like I said, not so much from the enemies, but from the setting and the storytelling.

Tom: So it's very unique, I think, in the way it manages to elicit tension from the player.

Phil: So it's got to be a short game then?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: I think maybe about four or five hours or so.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: Well, that's a perfect horror experience then.

Phil: I'd be interested in this.

Tom: I think it's well worth playing.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I think what's put me off it from all over the years is that a machine for pigs.

Phil: I just thought it was not this sort of game.

Phil: I thought it was a...

Phil: Well, I just thought it was not this sort of game.

Phil: I didn't think it was a serious game.

Phil: But now that you've talked about it and I've seen it, I can see that.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's certainly something worth looking at.

Phil: Audio, I guess the same composer was on it.

Phil: So the music composition was great.

Phil: What about the non-music audio in the game?

Tom: I think at the music we've got to talk about though.

Tom: I think the music is a big step up from T-Rex which had great music in and of itself.

Tom: I think the music here is very, very interesting.

Tom: It's got a lot of what you would expect from a horror game, but then it's got these really interesting choral compositions throughout it here and there that you wouldn't expect to hear in a horror game.

Tom: Yet, it's this great mix of beautiful yet weird choral singing that just stands out.

Tom: And the moments they use it in are always interesting.

Tom: So I think the music is a huge highlight here, even more so than in Dear Esther, where it was excellent.

Phil: The oral presentation when there is no music is what we're like, are you in the mansion and also in the factory?

Tom: Yes.

Tom: So you begin in the mansion and you end up in the factory.

Phil: And are there other people around like the people that work for you or?

Tom: No, it is for the most part empty of other people and beings.

Tom: But throughout, as I said, you come across these intercoms through which you speak to someone.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And as in typical Deus Ex, is it notes around or memory logs?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I hate that.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I absolutely hate that stuff.

Phil: So the obvious next question is, what's the visual type presentation?

Phil: Is there any artistic at play or is it just realistic D?

Phil: Did it seem authentic to the setting?

Tom: I think it was a very interesting use of the setting and included things that people wouldn't necessarily associate with the era but are accurate.

Tom: So like the lighting in the game is for the most part electric, as opposed to gas or just naked flames as would be the case in a very opulent mansion like this.

Tom: I think the use of art in the mansion as well was very interesting.

Tom: I think that is not necessarily so accurate to the era but it certainly adds to the atmosphere.

Phil: Do the paintings come alive?

Tom: No, they don't.

Phil: Okay, that's disappointing.

Phil: Can you jump into the paintings and go to another land?

Tom: No, sadly not.

Phil: I see that left a lot on the table.

Phil: That's unfortunate.

Tom: I have.

Phil: Now, is it all corridors and stuff or is it any open areas?

Tom: It's a mixture of large rooms, corridors, and there are also outdoor areas as well, both gardens and street settings.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: That is surprising.

Phil: I would have thought, okay.

Tom: So they managed to cover quite a lot of ground.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: Well, do you want to at this point get into spoilers which we can flag for people?

Tom: Well, we give it a score before we get into the spoilers.

Phil: That's a good idea.

Phil: That's a bloody good idea.

Phil: Let's give it a score with the old Dye of Destiny.

Tom: I got the Dye of Destiny ready.

Tom: Gets a out of unfortunately.

Phil: Well, see, I was going to play it.

Phil: But I think we need to come up with a prop that fights back the Dye of Destiny, like the Minifig of the Mind or the Mindful Minifig where you throw a LEGO character, and if he lands upside down, or then it triples the score or something.

Tom: What about you rate the game based on my impressions?

Phil: Based on your impressions, I'd say this is a solid to out of

Tom: And then we'll split it in two.

Tom: So we've got to divide by

Phil: No, based by-

Tom: For the overall score.

Phil: I think based on-

Phil: I've listened to you talk about a lot of games.

Phil: I think that you think very highly of this game, and I think that it would be in most people's minds, an .

Phil: Maybe I could be the Mindful Minifig.

Tom: The Mindful Minifog.

Phil: Minifog.

Phil: Hey, there you go.

Phil: The Mindful Minifog.

Phil: I'll write that one down.

Phil: Okay, well, let's get into spoilers.

Phil: But before we do so, if you don't want to be spoiled for this game, and Tom says you shouldn't be, remember that in most podcast applications, you can use the chapter markers and just skip straight ahead to the next game and not be spoiled.

Phil: We'll see you on the other side.

Phil: But for all you people that don't care, let's go ahead and spoil some stuff.

Tom: I think the spoilers here, I think the most interesting part about them isn't so much the game itself as the literary flash artistic tradition it's a part of.

Tom: Which has continued to the present day.

Tom: And this may be, I think, one of the foremost examples of it around, at least in pop culture, as opposed to maybe more literary areas.

Tom: But so essentially what happened was, he goes to, I think, I hope, I hope I was right that it's Mexico, and encounters an Aztec orb, which gives him a vision of the future, and all the horrors that occur in the th century, the First World War, Pol Pot, the Second World War, so on and so forth.

Phil: And so if it's Aztec, then it's most definitely Mexico, so you're safe on that one.

Phil: So he finds the orb, and it foretells what's going to happen in the th century, and it's all this really bad, dark stuff.

Tom: That's right, correct.

Phil: How do they portray that in the game?

Phil: Do they, like how, would they have a picture of Pol Pot, or like what are they, how do they do it?

Tom: They have a monologue at the end.

Phil: Oh, okay, so it's not visual.

Tom: No, which I think is to its benefit.

Tom: Because the whole thing, the majority of the game is basically, I think the majority of the themes are presented through the writing.

Tom: Like there's references to it in the setting of the mansion with the sort of things that the protagonist has collected and decorated the mansion with.

Tom: But for the most part, the majority of the story telling, not dissimilar to Dear Esther is through the writing and the narration and acting.

Tom: And I think it does a better job of that than Dear Esther.

Phil: Okay, so spoil me.

Phil: Besides Pell Pot, what else do they have?

Phil: World War I, World War II, Nagasaki?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: They also have the atomic bombs.

Tom: And more relevant to the protagonist, he sees that his sons both die in the Battle of the Somme in the First World War.

Tom: So having seen what the future is, first of all, when he goes to Mexico, as is tradition, he being exposed to another culture and civilization, he sees the horror of his own.

Tom: And so his machine for pigs and his revolutionizing of meat production begins by collecting rich people and other aristocrats and that sort of thing, adding them to his meat production and feeding them to the poor, which I thought was a pretty hilarious.

Phil: Yeah, pretty easy one.

Phil: Among the horrors that is foretold by the Aztec war, do they show the return of Grimace to McDonald's in ?

Phil: No, they don't.

Phil: Because that would tie in with the pink slime of McDonald's.

Tom: I think this would get to an alternative ending, because as the game ends, he stops the machine from carrying out its doomsday plans, which I'll get into in a minute.

Tom: But in an alternative ending to the game, which was scrapped, which I think would have actually been an interesting ending, he instead of stopping the machine, he used the machine to split the atom, creating a large nuclear explosion, which was to destroy the empire, perhaps the world.

Phil: He takes a meat processing device and goes, no, stuff that, we're going to stop making sausages, let's use it to split the atom.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: That was the alternative ending.

Phil: I'm glad they dropped it.

Tom: I like it.

Tom: I like it.

Tom: I think it adds to the unintentional humor, but also the crisis of the protagonist.

Phil: But, so, as I said, from what you described so far, I love it.

Phil: I think that's a great premise, and it makes me wonder, well, what would I do?

Phil: Now, he's only a man of means.

Phil: Right?

Phil: So he, like, if me and you discovered that, like, there's nothing we can do except be like really glum.

Phil: We could probably profit from it by writing a book, saying, you know, what my mind says will happen.

Phil: You won't make any money off it, but if you try and make it as well known as possible, at least in the future, people would go, wow, man, that's Phil Fogg.

Phil: He knew it all.

Phil: I mean, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.

Phil: This guy was Nostradamus, you know, sort of thing.

Phil: But a profit in his own times is often not lauded.

Phil: So how does it change in the game?

Phil: We might be jumping ahead.

Phil: So in the game, how does that actually change what he does?

Tom: Well, the thing is, the thing is, which I think makes the story a lot more interesting than other takes on this sort of thing is, the whole thing begins with him trying to make the world a better place, with his meat production, focusing on charitable work and improving things for the poor people of London.

Tom: And this idea gradually snowballs into becoming this totally different thing, culminating with his idea of destroying the entirety of humanity for its betterment, which I think is in such stories is often missed because if we look at any of the terrible things that happened in the th century, which is what caused his crisis of conscience in the first place, none of those things were not done without the best of intentions, from the Holocaust to Pol Pot to the nuclear bomb.

Tom: Everyone who did all of those things believed they were doing a great thing that was for the good of humanity, which I think in depictions of these things is usually totally missed.

Tom: These people instead are depicted as merely sadists who wanted to do the worst thing possible because they hated everyone, right?

Phil: No, yeah, of course.

Phil: Yeah, everyone was acting because I think it's the right thing to do.

Phil: Otherwise, how could you convince people to kill other people for the sake of cause?

Phil: So this guy, do you think that Alfred Nobel, the inventor of dynamite, you know, you can almost say like at some point, he had an epiphany that, oh God, what have I created?

Phil: You know, nitroglycerin and the devastation of it.

Phil: And he invented that in the late s as well.

Phil: And then at his death, he obviously realized what he had done and he donated his fortune to a foundation, you know, that to this day awards the Nobel Peace Prize.

Phil: And it's kind of the same, I mean, this game kind of follows that same sort of path.

Phil: Like somehow, Nobel, obviously he didn't find some Aztecian orb that showed him what his machine that he had created would do.

Phil: Otherwise, and if it was a video game, he'd then probably turn dynamite into something that could create sausages.

Tom: Well, dynamite is already sausage shaped.

Phil: It is, it's quite simple, really.

Phil: You just put different things in the case.

Tom: Just put meat in it instead of explosive.

Phil: There you go.

Phil: And it's quite harmful and tasty.

Phil: And then you think perhaps about Oscar Mayer, you know, a tremendous visionary.

Phil: Who would think to encase, you know, the awful, the things you can't use, the who's, the tongues, the hearts, into a hot dog and invent the hot dog?

Phil: And that's a, you know, it's a good marketing name to hot dog.

Phil: Who wouldn't want a hot dog?

Phil: You know?

Phil: But you have to think that, seriously though, you have to think that in the writing of this game that Alfred Nobel would have come up, right?

Tom: I would think so.

Tom: And particularly because, so, as I said, you're speaking to someone via intercom, and it turns out who you're speaking to is the machine.

Tom: But for the machine to function, you have basically put a part of yourself in the machine, the part of yourself that wants to destroy everything, right?

Phil: A part of yourself into the machine.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I get it.

Tom: So you're basically, throughout the game, having this discussion between these two sides of yourself and seeing which side will ultimately win out in the end.

Phil: So it's not a could you kindly type situation.

Phil: No.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So I think this one sounds like a really good psychological, I wouldn't say thriller, but a psychological something and analysis.

Phil: Is there a positive, is there something at the end where he saves his kids, or is it end on a dark note as a conjecture?

Tom: Well, it turns out that in fact, his children are the first thing that he sacrificed to the machine.

Tom: His children have been dead all along.

Phil: So a premonition of Dear Esther.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: So what does this say about Dan Pinchbeck, the writer of both games?

Phil: Has he got his own experience in this stuff?

Tom: We need to research as to whether he has any children or not, and as to the current status of them in regards to whether they are dead or alive or not.

Tom: Is that what you're saying?

Phil: I think it might be late at this stage in but someone needs to check up on his kids in a hurry.

Tom: I think so.

Tom: Just to be on the safe side.

Phil: I think so.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Is that all we have to say about this brilliant game, Amnesia, Machine?

Phil: No.

Tom: The last thing I would say in terms of this whole theme that we've seen repeated in Western art since at least Heart of Darkness, which again from a similar era to this a little bit later, but close enough, is this whole thing of, and I think another example of that is what's it called?

Tom: The Marlon Brando starring Marlon Brando.

Tom: Apocalypse Now.

Phil: Apocalypse Now, which is now Apocalypse Then.

Tom: Yeah, exactly.

Tom: The thing I find interesting about these things, and I think this is maybe the least like that, because he does go there and have an epiphany to try and make things better in the colonizing place that he's from, which then all goes to shit.

Tom: But I think Apocalypse Now is by far the worst example of this, without any question, particularly given that it's an American film and about Vietnam and not so long after it.

Tom: What you end up with is you have these colonizers going to these other places and seeing the bad things are there.

Tom: But for the most part, having this horrific vision of the dark nature of humanity and taking it back home in some way, whether in the case of Heart of Darkness, that's in the inability to function in that society, knowing what it's doing, or in the case of Apocalypse, now becoming that, as if by going to Vietnam, it turned America into this evil war machine, which is just a totally comically absurd notion.

Tom: Whereas in reality, what did colonization give to Western civilization and culture?

Tom: It literally gave them civilization without England going to India and China.

Tom: All of the things that we define civilization as, such as bureaucracy and complex political apparatus that can function internationally and nationally in a complex manner would not exist.

Phil: I was thinking more of tea and marmalade, but yeah, that too.

Tom: Well, see, that's the thing we're able to accept within the broader thing that we get tea, which is a stimulant drug, and sugar, which is another stimulant drug.

Tom: So it's all the bad things that we've received.

Phil: And fireworks.

Tom: Yep, and fireworks, as opposed to the defining things of our civilization which we consider to be the good things.

Tom: I think this is interesting because he brought back, and it went to shit, of course, but he brought back something good from the colonization.

Tom: He brought back empathy, which he didn't have before, as opposed to, and that then went wrong, but at least it was a positive thing he brought.

Phil: I was going to say, how did that work out for him?

Tom: In the end, it worked out well.

Phil: All right, let's move on to another game with a horror theme.

Phil: This is a game I wanted to play forever.

Phil: From the time I first heard about it in I was like, me and you have to play this game.

Phil: Have to.

Phil: And I finally downloaded it, and I played it and then I moved on.

Phil: I mean, I literally just played it to see if it installed.

Phil: And it's by the same people.

Phil: Well, it's published, yeah, developed and published by Frictional Games.

Phil: And that's the same people, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: So another survival horror.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: And this is developed by Frictional Games as well as published by them.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So this must be what they were working on while the Chinese Room was doing the sequel, because it came out in September

Tom: And it could be that this gave them the, that a machine for pigs developing into a larger project is what allowed them the opportunity to develop this, rather than having to produce another game in the Amnesia series.

Phil: It's not quite on everything.

Phil: It's on Linux and Mac, PlayStation Windows and Xbox One.

Phil: So most people these days would access it through, through Windows.

Phil: I don't think it's had a re-release or a remaster or anything like that.

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: And I'm not as familiar with frictional games as I am the Chinese room, but this is also a survival horror and single player.

Phil: Is it first or third?

Phil: This is a first person one as I recall.

Tom: Correct.

Phil: And it's set not in Edwardian England, but from my mind, I thought it was set in the near future, or possibly just the future.

Phil: It has to be the future because it's full of robots and stuff, right?

Tom: Well, it depends on which part of the game.

Tom: It begins with a present day setting.

Tom: I think it was released in right?

Phil: Well, it takes place in...

Phil: I'm sorry to have to back check you here.

Phil: The setting is in in the Underworld Research Facility.

Tom: See, this is where you're incorrect because it begins in

Phil: Okay.

Tom: The protagonist has some neurological problem, and he is going to have a brain scan, to for an experimental brain scan, and from when once you have had the brain scan, you then wake up in or whatever you said it was.

Tom: So it begins in

Phil: Okay, so first-person survival horror.

Phil: I'm guessing this has just got an incredible graphics, like just being realistic type graphics, right?

Phil: There's nothing artistic about it.

Tom: Correct, yep.

Phil: And doesn't have any of the Chinese-owned people working on it, which they wouldn't be.

Phil: They were doing their own thing at that point.

Phil: So, okay, well, just tell us about Soma.

Tom: Well, I think the most striking thing about it is definitely the way it begins.

Tom: As I said, begins in this perfectly normal setting.

Tom: Reminds me a lot of not being John Malkovich, but another, what is it?

Tom: Is it Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?

Tom: It reminds me of that film a lot, but it is just such a great opening to a horror science fiction game where it begins in a totally normal setting with the only slightly sort of weird thing being this experimental brain scan, and then it just drops you into this totally different world, which is an incredible opening.

Tom: And so from then on, you are potentially the only human entity in this world.

Tom: As you explore, you encounter robots who appear to believe that they are human, and some of them are antagonistic, and some of them interact with you normally.

Tom: I think the first interaction with them is a great, is a very off-putting experience where you encounter this robot that has, I think it's had something fall on it, and it's asking you for help, and it is convinced that it's human, and you can see that it isn't human, creating this very disconcerting interaction with it.

Tom: And you have no form of knowledge of the setting you are in, and you're there basically not as an amnesiac, hence it's not part of the amnesia series, but you were there having had no prior knowledge of the setting that you were in.

Phil: So, how is it that you've turned up in this place?

Phil: Again, because you had a brain scan, is this again like the other games just all in your head?

Phil: Like, are you going to find...

Phil: Yeah, yeah, I guess that's probably a spoiler.

Phil: Are you going to find out that this is all just in your head?

Tom: Well, these are my first impressions.

Tom: I certainly have my theory as to what is going on.

Tom: I would presume if we can venture into...

Tom: I don't think it's spoilers because this is my theory.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: So given the fact that you are interacting with robots who believe that you are human, I would presume that the brain scan, which was to essentially map out your brain, somehow I would assume your brain scan has ended up in this underwater facility in the future and you have been uploaded into some machine or something else.

Phil: Brilliant.

Phil: So it was an experimental brain scan that you were getting, and now you may have been replicated tens of thousands of times as the basis for artificial intelligence for these robots in terms of how they think and how they do things.

Phil: Were you someone who, what role were you playing?

Phil: Like were you a scientist or something like that?

Tom: You were just a random dude.

Phil: Well, okay.

Phil: Well, it would have been more interested if you were like a NASA astronaut or something like that, where they're like wanting to develop you all and clone you because you've got certain attributes, but-

Tom: Well, the reason why I think my theory could still work, and this would be, I would say, maybe a minor spoiler, but it's pretty obvious the moment you end up underwater.

Tom: Some catastrophe has occurred on earth.

Tom: So there are potentially not many people left around.

Tom: So perhaps they have been in response to this catastrophe that has potentially wiped out much of humanity, been looking for people who have had their brain scanned and you being participating in this experimental scientific study, have ended up being added to the number of people who have been recreated in one way or another.

Phil: So what are you doing then in this game?

Phil: You wake up, what's your purpose for wanting to do anything?

Phil: You're just trying to figure out where you are and-

Tom: I think you're trying to figure out where you are and what is going on.

Phil: And nothing more than that?

Tom: I would say to begin with nothing more than that, then you have other reasons to continue on later on.

Tom: But I would say that will be venturing into spoiler territory if I was to go into detail there.

Phil: So how in terms of your-

Phil: how many hours into this game are you?

Tom: I would say a couple of hours probably.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: And most people beat this game in nine hours.

Phil: So yeah, it's early days yet.

Phil: So what are-

Phil: how are your interactions with the artificial intelligence robots?

Phil: What-

Phil: do they pull it off pretty well?

Tom: So in terms of the ones you talk to, you're basically just talking to them.

Tom: In terms of the ones that are enemies, I think not dissimilar to the Amnesia series or Penumbra, you can't fight against them.

Tom: So it's a matter of using stealth to avoid them pretty much.

Tom: And I think the interesting thing is, which goes back to something we were saying about Dear Esther and Disco Elysium, I would pretty much categorize this game as a walking simulator with very brief stealth sections in it.

Tom: So the puzzle solving is, I would say even simpler than it was in A Machine for Pigs, which was very much heavily criticized by people who did not enjoy it, for being a walking simulator.

Tom: I think the stealth sections, they're less janky and awkward than they are in A Machine for Pigs, but they're really not any more complicated.

Tom: And so far this could become more complex later on, but so far they're probably even shorter than they are in A Machine for Pigs.

Tom: So I think this goes back to what I said in my Disco Elysium impressions.

Tom: I think the only reason this has not been denigrated and criticized as being a walking simulator is the way the storytelling works and the setting is acceptable.

Tom: So it's science fiction.

Tom: It's much more simplistic science fiction with less obvious themes.

Tom: I mean, thematically, it is great so far.

Tom: Don't get me wrong.

Tom: But it's not as thematically complex or interesting as I would say anyway.

Tom: So far, A Machine for Pigs, it doesn't talk about some wanky thing like colonialism and capitalism so far.

Tom: It's philosophically interesting but it's not philosophically interesting in a way that it's going to make you question things about the society you live in.

Phil: And you know, there's a place for that, certainly.

Tom: Yeah, I'm not mentioning that as a criticism whatsoever.

Tom: I'm just saying if they veered into that, people might be saying, this is a shitty walking simulator, fuck this crap game.

Tom: That's all I'm saying.

Phil: And in fact, it did get a really good critical reception, mostly s to s.

Tom: And was loved by fans of frictional games.

Phil: And loved by fans of survival horror.

Phil: And I remember at the time, the reason I was so interested in getting it is that the zeitgeist of the time was that, hey, this game's a thinking game.

Phil: Like this is something that you're going to play, it's going to challenge you, you're going to have fun with it, but also it's going to go places.

Phil: And in doing so, with its setting, rather than, you know, Edwardian England, you know, that's kind of good in a way that they've made it more accessible to people who play video games, a lot of video games in terms of its setting, because then they're there to be able to receive the message that you're going to put forward.

Phil: If you start throwing them off by saying, okay, this is first person, but you're on an island and there's not really much on the island and there's no other people to interact with and all you're going to hear is a narrator, you know, it's just going to lose people before they can actually get to the point of the game.

Phil: Unless you get to appreciate games that are different, which is what we do here.

Phil: So those are very good first impressions.

Phil: I have it installed.

Phil: So I will add it to the long list of games I really want to play and start.

Phil: I might catch up with you though.

Phil: Is it?

Tom: I would highly recommend both this and A Machine for Pigs.

Tom: I think they're two games you should definitely play.

Tom: And I think they're interesting.

Tom: I think they're interesting to play with each other.

Tom: Because there are, like I said, a lot of similarities and I think it's an interesting experience when you take into account the reactions to both games, given the similarities that are there, that I think is sort of ignored.

Tom: And a lot of it is very much based on window dressing things.

Tom: Like the writing in Soma is, first of all, it's way worse than it is in A Machine for Pigs.

Tom: And the fact that the writing is worse, I think, is part of what makes it accessible.

Tom: Because thematically, it could end up being as interesting, if not more limited, than A Machine for Pigs.

Tom: I need to play more of it to reach a conclusion, because the strikingness of the opening is exceptional writing.

Tom: But then on a minute-to-minute basis, the writing is horrendous compared to A Machine for Pigs.

Tom: But the storytelling is in an acceptable manner.

Tom: So instead of it being basically all interior monologue, even if it doesn't appear to be interior monologue, it is, the logs you're looking at aren't obviously the protagonist's thoughts.

Tom: It's things being replayed that have occurred on the station.

Tom: The writing is not particularly good.

Tom: It's not like the original Bioshock writing, where that stuff is handled really well.

Tom: It's pretty awkward at times.

Tom: And it's, once you're starting to veer into more being revealed about what's going on perhaps with the robots, it's not done in a particularly believable manner due to the awkwardness of the writing and the voice acting struggles with the quality of the writing at times.

Tom: Whereas the voice acting in A Machine for Pigs is exceptional throughout.

Tom: And is at the standard of the writing.

Phil: So does that pretty much wrap up your first impressions of Soma?

Tom: I would say so.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Well, I might give it a start at least, maybe put a couple of hours into it and see, see how I go with it for the next time that we talk about it.

Tom: The one thing I would add actually is, I think that Frictional Games was willing to allow the Chinese Room to develop a machine for pigs into a full game, and make Soma as well.

Tom: While still being a horror game and in terms of gameplay similar to the Amnesia and Penumbra series, I think shows, there's a lot about them.

Tom: I think that's very impressive.

Tom: A lot of publishers, I don't think, would let someone work on what has been their main series in terms of money generation, and do something that is totally different to other games in that series, and work on something themselves simultaneously that's very different, at least in terms of setting compared to other games in that series as well.

Phil: Oh yeah, I think it's frictional.

Phil: It's frictional, by the way, FRI, for the people who are listening.

Phil: I think they're really commended.

Phil: I thought they showed great vision in character by letting someone else have their baby while they worked on something else, and yeah, really good.

Phil: Okay, so we're going to move on to a game that just came out in September called UFO

Phil: UFO was supposed to have come out in and instead, it was supposed to be a project.

Phil: Now, everyone's assigning this game to Derek Yu, the maker of Spelunky, and this game was supposed to come out between Spelunky and Spelunky

Phil: It was just a small side project that he wanted to work on.

Phil: But we've got to attribute that there are six other developers, Eric Surick, John Perry, Paul Hubens, Ohiro Fumoto and Tyreek Plummer, who also worked on this game.

Phil: It's not just a Derek Yu game.

Phil: And I just don't like it when people only mention the guy at the top, because obviously a great many people put a lot of years into this game.

Phil: And what it is, is it's a game that's presented as a compilation of games.

Phil: So if you can imagine the rare games compendium, you know, that had Banjo-Kazooie and Perfect Dark and all that, all of the games that Rare ever made on one DVD that came out for the Xbox One, I think.

Phil: So this is for a fictional console that never existed by, that was a games that were made by a fictional developer called UFO.

Phil: And basically, this is a compendium of all of the games that they ever made.

Phil: Starting in the -bit era and ending at the end of the -bit era.

Phil: And so that's what the presentation of these games are.

Phil: They have a Commodore type, you know, story screen at the start, which shows that, shows Derek Yu, I think, and Eric Cirque, finding these games in a storage locker.

Phil: And from that very simple, you know, three screen story, you basically get cartridges in front of you, you pick which one you want, they're in chronological order.

Phil: And they're basically student apps, platformers and role playing games, and some shorter arcade type games as well.

Phil: So in terms of their presentation, I'd say that they're very authentic.

Phil: You know, they look a lot like the games I've been playing so far.

Phil: This is only a first impressions because I've played about of the

Phil: Most of them looking bit.

Phil: So I started at the beginning and then I went to the end and worked backwards to play those games just so I could see what the scope of these were.

Phil: I've got to say that the audio is outstanding.

Phil: The music is absolutely outstanding.

Phil: So credit to the composer, which was Yirik Surik.

Phil: It's probably the best thing about the game that I've enjoyed so far other than the concept.

Phil: What do you think of the concept of the game?

Tom: I think it's an interesting concept, particularly with the games changing over the years.

Phil: Yeah, it's basically trying to show you the development of this developer as they've gone along.

Phil: But also, what they do is they add modern sensibilities to these old games.

Phil: So while they may be keeping close to, but not true to, the technology of the time in terms of the graphics and the sound, they've introduced what a modern game developer would do with this old architecture, which is exactly what they've done.

Phil: Now, this wasn't done using old Nest development kits and things like that.

Phil: It's used making Game Maker Studio is the engine.

Phil: And I should say this is available on Windows exclusively right now.

Phil: It's not available on anything else, though you could imagine it could be easily ported to anything.

Phil: It's a very small install about, what did I say it was, about megabytes or something like that?

Tom: Something like that.

Tom: I think the download might only be megabytes.

Phil: Yeah, whereas the hard drive space is a bit more than that.

Phil: So, and it's at the right price.

Phil: And if you're in the US, I think it's bucks and elsewhere, it's whatever your local currency is in USD.

Phil: So it's affordable, quick to download, took a long time to develop.

Phil: In reading an interview with Derek Yu in Edge magazine, he said, you know, when you're making a game and you get delayed by a week, you know, you're delayed by a week, but when you're making games and you get delayed by a week, that's practically a year.

Phil: And that's kind of what happened with this game.

Phil: So I think they were really dedicated.

Phil: He said right from the start, it had to be games.

Phil: They didn't want to do UFO and then like have other expansions.

Phil: There is apparently a minor meta game that is going on with this, or a meta story element that is going on with it.

Phil: Do you want to highlight your favorite game of the ones that you've played of the UFO ?

Tom: So far, I've played two games.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And of those two, my favorite was the snake game.

Phil: The snake ripoff.

Phil: Did they do anything modern with the snake ripoff though?

Tom: I'm not sure.

Tom: I think I kept dying for some reason I couldn't quite work out.

Tom: I think maybe I hit the wall and died.

Tom: But I thought I was moving left and pressed up or whatever direction I was going in and avoided the wall.

Tom: But at that point, I always died.

Tom: So the modern edition was something I didn't understand because I didn't remember that being an issue with normal or the original versions of snake.

Phil: So did you just pick one at random or?

Tom: Yeah, I just picked games at random too.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: The one I liked the most was Paint Chase, which is basically Splatoon.

Phil: But if you had to make it as an arcade game for

Phil: So it's top down.

Phil: You're in charge of these cars that have paint rollers on the front of them.

Phil: And your job is to paint as much, well, just like Splatoon, your job is to paint as much of the field as possible.

Phil: While these AI opponents basically try to beat you or paint over what you've painted.

Phil: It was really brilliant.

Phil: And I think that's what this game is going to bring.

Phil: Or at least I hope this is what this game is going to bring.

Phil: Is taking these, you know, new novel elements that have happened in gaming since and going, okay, if you knew about Splatoon in and someone said, go make an arcade port of this, you'd go, well, I can't have...

Phil: First of all, it's got to be top down.

Phil: Second of all, I can't animate human figures.

Phil: It's got to be a car because it's basically a rectangle.

Phil: And I'll figure out the rest.

Phil: I think that's probably where the joy of this game is going to develop.

Phil: The other games I played, I can't say were very notable at all.

Phil: Now, I wasn't a very big -bit.

Phil: Like I was not a very strong enthusiast of -bit gaming.

Phil: So there's probably something I'm missing out on there.

Phil: And probably I was a bit impatient as I went through some of these, because if something didn't work right away, I'm on to the next one.

Phil: So I'm sure there's going to be other games that we can talk about in the future.

Phil: I did play Waldorf's Journey and Porgy, which is a Metroidvania.

Phil: And it's like, some of these games are quite long, almost full length.

Phil: There's some RPGs in there that are full on -bit RPGs.

Phil: So I can't argue about the value of it.

Phil: Certainly, I've heard everyone gushing about it.

Phil: It's got a on Metacritic and on OpenCritic.

Phil: Eurogamer gave it a perfect score.

Phil: GameSpot gave it a out of and PCGamer gave it an

Phil: So, you know, I'm obviously at this point not getting the same thing that other people who are playing it are getting out of it.

Phil: I've even heard people saying that they would nominate one of the games in this collection for their game of the year.

Phil: So, yeah, I'm clearly not missing something with it.

Phil: And it could have been because I overstudied for it, because I read two Edge articles for it, and then I've heard a thousand podcasts talk kindly about it.

Phil: So maybe my expectations were a little too high.

Tom: Well, so far, I would rather play a different version of Snake.

Tom: That's all I'll say.

Phil: A different version from the one you played?

Tom: I think this was not, as you'd be hoping for, this was not one of the best versions of Snake I've played.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So we don't have too much good things to say about that.

Phil: Were you a fan of Spelunky at least?

Tom: I'm not sure I ever played Spelunky.

Tom: I don't think I did.

Phil: Well, that makes two of us.

Phil: We seem like we don't know what we're talking about now.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So with that, we're going to go into our how it started segment, and that is how we're going to finish this podcast.

Phil: There is some merit that some game series garner more cultural relevance and improve as games the longer they run, and some games don't really start at their first release.

Phil: Do you understand where I'm coming from with this?

Tom: We'll see.

Tom: So far, I think I do.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So like, if I were to say, and something we talked about before, and the last time we played this was Halo, like what's the first?

Phil: The first Halos, obviously Halo.

Phil: So I want to hear from your perspective, what was the first Halo for most people and then what was the first Halo for you?

Phil: So for you personally, where did this series really, franchise really pick up?

Phil: And then also from the greater gaming community.

Phil: So maybe if you can start with saying, oh, well, this is the game that broke out for this franchise, for the community, but then for you personally, which game was it where you went, yeah, okay, now I get it.

Tom: Halo

Phil: Right.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: And that's what you said last time.

Phil: So for another example would be Yakuza.

Phil: So for me, I got it right away.

Phil: The first game was brilliant and it took years for the rest of the world to catch up.

Phil: And so I forget what it was even called.

Phil: It's not the Kiwami series, but Yakuza

Phil: Like it took until Yakuza which is a prequel to the first game, before people really put onto it.

Phil: And now, of course, you've got the like a dragon series.

Phil: Well, now Yakuza is called like a dragon.

Phil: And you've got those two RPGs have really caught fire.

Phil: So hopefully the listeners understand as well.

Phil: So I'm going to give you the name of a popular franchise.

Phil: And you're going to tell me when did it take off for the world and when did it take off for you?

Phil: And I'll start with a big one, Final Fantasy.

Tom: I think Final Fantasy, I'm going to go with Final Fantasy

Tom: And I'm going to go with Final Fantasy for both, I think.

Phil: You don't?

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: Make your argument.

Tom: Some people, I don't know, some people might say Final Fantasy or is the first one that was more like the structure of the latter Final Fantasy games?

Phil: Okay, so Final Fantasy was the first one that adopted the structure.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: And when I say three, I mean the Japanese three, because Final Fantasy in the west was Final Fantasy

Phil: So just forgetting all that rubbish, we're in the west.

Phil: So Final Fantasy is basically where it set up that franchise for what it was to be.

Phil: The Final Fantasy as it was released in the United States.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: I would still go with Final Fantasy because I don't think the previous Final Fantasy games were certainly big, but I think Final Fantasy that game was absolutely everywhere in terms of advertising and cultural impact in a way that I don't think previous Final Fantasy games were.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I think because of that, yeah, it was big.

Phil: It was big culturally, but I think because of that, Final Fantasy had a massive amount of returns because people saw the ads on TV before the FMV, and then they start playing it, and they're like, what the hell?

Phil: These tiny little two inch tall polygonal characters, and what?

Phil: This game is like four discs.

Phil: So I think that's where it broke through to everyone else.

Phil: But I'm going to, well, now, why is it for you?

Phil: You're first.

Tom: I think that's the first Final Fantasy I played, and it's still up there with my favorites in the series to today.

Tom: I think I originally played it, borrowing it with a PlayStation from one of the VHS rental places that existed in that era.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So you weren't at someone else's house when you first played it?

Tom: No.

Phil: As is often the case.

Tom: No.

Tom: This one wasn't...

Tom: that wasn't the case, no.

Phil: So you rented it.

Phil: Did it smell like cigarettes?

Tom: I don't think so, no.

Phil: Well, that's good.

Phil: For me, Final Fantasy, obviously as a cultural phenomenon, broke out with Seven.

Phil: But I'd say that the gaming community was behind Final Fantasy right from the very beginning.

Phil: I think that in America or in the quote West, it was probably Final Fantasy that really caught fire.

Phil: Now for me, the first Final Fantasy that caught fire, Final Fantasy which was four in Japan, was the first game that I played and I absolutely loved it.

Phil: But when it really clicked for me, was when I played Final Fantasy

Phil: And then I went back and then played Final Fantasy through

Phil: And those to me are the golden years of Final Fantasy.

Phil: But you had a special appreciation for Final Fantasy as I recall.

Tom: And also I would say probably my two favorite games in the series are Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I'd say that my least favorite are and

Phil: I didn't really, I liked that returned to a fantasy setting, but it didn't really do anything for me.

Phil: I tried to play Final Fantasy so many times, and I think I really would have liked it had I been playing it at the time.

Phil: Because most of my play, I bought it at the time, but most of my play experience with was on the Vita.

Phil: But, you know, what a tremendous franchise.

Phil: And I still appreciate what they're doing.

Phil: I haven't played the most recent one.

Phil: I played the Road Bro game, and I actually really enjoyed it.

Phil: And apparently now it's, like A Dragon is more turn-based apparently than Final Fantasy.

Phil: And I have enjoyed the Final Fantasy remake.

Phil: That's been a really enjoyable game as well.

Phil: So, yeah, but would you agree?

Phil: What a fantastic franchise.

Tom: Without a doubt.

Tom: I think for me, the worst game in the series by far that I've played anyway is Final Fantasy

Tom: And if I wasn't coming to it from the perspective of Final Fantasy, I would probably say it was all right.

Phil: Yeah, I certainly fell off with and and that's kind of where it all fell apart for me.

Phil: But yeah, it's still going.

Tom: Any interest in playing Final Fantasy or ?

Phil: All interests, but no time.

Phil: And like, because I absolutely like the Final Final Fantasy remakes, but I just haven't got enough time to play them and still be playing all the things that I want to do.

Phil: So yeah, it is unfortunate.

Phil: Hopefully, they'll be remaking these games for years to come.

Phil: So that when I do have the time, they've got all the modern accoutrements.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I'll pick a quickie, because I'm not sure that either of us have much experience with this one.

Phil: Assassin's Creed.

Tom: Assassin's Creed.

Phil: Assassin's Creed.

Tom: I'm not sure I've ever played a single Assassin's Creed game.

Tom: I don't think I have.

Phil: When do you think it broke open for the world?

Tom: I would say probably the original.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: I'd say the second one.

Phil: The original was innovative, but not enjoyable.

Phil: And by the time they got around to the second one, it really took off.

Phil: Sort of like Watch Dogs in that respect, but then there's a franchise you'll never hear about from Ubisoft again.

Tom: I think two is the one that people remember, but I think the original had the same level of cultural impact as the sequel, which is why I would go for the original, even if it's not as well liked today.

Phil: That's fair.

Phil: That's fair.

Phil: We'll go with another easy one for the two of us, Max Payne.

Tom: Max Payne.

Tom: I mean, there's only one answer to that, surely.

Phil: For yourself or for the world?

Tom: For both, the original, without any question.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I think that for the world, absolutely, right from the start, this game was on fire in a good way.

Phil: This game was fire.

Phil: It captivated everyone, and it seemed to be doing things that other games were not able to do.

Phil: The bullet time was obviously brilliant.

Phil: The grittiness of it.

Phil: It was so s, am I right?

Phil: That it is very s.

Tom: Absolutely.

Phil: What do you have to say about Max Payne ?

Tom: I think Max Payne mechanically is one of the best third-person shooters ever.

Tom: In terms of level design, it's unfortunately not so interesting.

Tom: And in terms of the use of the character and narrative as well, it's a massive step down from the previous Max Payne.

Tom: There's no comparison between the two at all.

Phil: If you'd like to listen to us, we talked about this in episode

Phil: I thought it was a pretty good episode.

Phil: And certainly a memorable one as well.

Phil: I think we came up with some alternate story lines for involving a rental car, but I can't remember what it was.

Phil: But you gave this score of out of at the time.

Tom: For Max Payne yes.

Phil: Yeah, because we talked about Max Payne in episode then Max Payne in the next episode, and then finally Max Payne in episode

Phil: Yeah, I think, yeah, again, for the world, I think it's the first one.

Phil: And I think Max Payne would be widely considered to be probably the lull in the series.

Phil: And it's going to, unfortunately, probably be the final entry in the series, because it's owned by Take Two now.

Phil: So we're not likely to see many more Max Payne games in the immediate future.

Phil: For me, personally, I played all three of them.

Phil: And of the three, I found three the most delicious.

Phil: And it could have been because I was playing Max Payne and not contemporaneously.

Phil: I went back to play them as a part of the, you know, for this show.

Phil: But I absolutely loved Max Payne

Phil: It was right and wrong in equal measure.

Phil: So, yeah.

Phil: So, finally, we'll go with Tekken.

Tom: Tekken, for me, without a doubt, Tekken

Phil: Tekken now what was that on?

Tom: That was on the PlayStation.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: That was a good one.

Tom: I think that's the game where Tekken essentially became what it is today.

Tom: The first two Tekken's, I think, the movement feels a lot more limited than Tekken

Tom: Since Tekken there have certainly been minor changes over the years, but I think every Tekken game since Tekken feels to some degree like Tekken

Phil: I think they've just recently released a new Tekken.

Tom: Tekken I believe.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: And I think for the world, I would also say it's probably Tekken

Tom: I think that's when Tekken broke out for the most part.

Tom: It was certainly a big thing before then, but I think that, not unlike Final Fantasy VII in the Final Fantasy series, is where it became a killer app for the PlayStation and could be seen all over the place.

Phil: I think Tekken was pretty widespread, but yeah, Tekken broke it open.

Phil: It was probably the pinnacle of that franchise.

Phil: I personally have no experience with it.

Phil: I've got a few of the Tekken games.

Phil: Tekken Tag, is Tekken Tag any good?

Tom: My favorite two Tekken's are Tekken and the original Tekken Tag tournament.

Phil: Tekken Tag tournament, yeah, I've got those ones.

Phil: I think Tekken also.

Phil: But yeah, never did anything for me personally, which doesn't say much anyway.

Phil: Okay, well, we'll return to how it all started segment.

Phil: We've still got Call of Duty, Doom, Super Mario Brothers, Zelda, Fallout, and Elder Scrolls to talk about.

Phil: But that's all we're going to be talking about this episode.

Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: You can visit our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: We've got lots of resources there.

Phil: Our old stories and podcasts going back episodes now.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question or make a comment, just go to their front page, and you can submit right there without having to register.

Phil: It's completely anonymous.

Phil: So just go ahead and do it.

Phil: We'd love to hear from you.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: And thank you again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Game Under Podcast 161

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:25 Intro

0:03:53 Halo Bungie and 343 Industry

0:23:19 Tom Plays Open Roads

0:26:29 Open Road is Pretty much Star Wars

0:39:45 Spoilers (but you really don't care)

0:41:49 Both Hosts play You Suck at Parking

0:58:48 Tom's Exhausting Story

1:14:33 Tom Plays Still Wakes the Deep

1:34:33 Nintendo's Alarmo

1:39:11 E-mails - What genre would you kill?

Transcript
WEBVTT

Phil: And in absent for a while.

Phil: So I'm sure it'll be a great podcast.

Phil: I'll bring that big energy I'm famous for.

Phil: Episode

Phil: Okay, I'll do the intro this time.

Tom: I thought that was the intro, that was your high-energy intro.

Phil: Hey everybody, it's episode of The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast.

Phil: I am Phil Fogg, and I am joined by my inimitable co-host, Mr.

Phil: Tom Towers.

Phil: Tom Towers.

Phil: Are we both co-hosts, or are we both hosts?

Phil: I think we're just both hosts.

Tom: I'm not sure.

Tom: I think, if I do the intro, I'm the host, and you're the co-host.

Tom: And if you do the intro, you're the host, and I'm the co-host.

Phil: No, I think we're just equally hosts, because you know what?

Phil: In a plane, there's two pilots, but one of them is the co-pilot.

Phil: And I don't think we have a co-pilot.

Tom: I don't think this is a plane either.

Phil: No, that's true.

Phil: It's a good thing it isn't, given...

Tom: That's why the podcast is still going and it hasn't crashed.

Phil: That's it.

Phil: Anything to talk about before we get into the news?

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: I think we should go straight into the news.

Tom: I think we've had some very big and important news this week, haven't we?

Phil: Well, we have, but we've got so many games to talk about.

Phil: This week, we're going to be talking about a game that you have finished called Open Roads.

Phil: Who made that?

Tom: I think that was made by the Open Roads team, formerly known as Fullbright Entertainment.

Phil: Right.

Phil: They're famous for?

Tom: For Gone Home.

Phil: That's it.

Phil: A new game from them.

Phil: We're also going to play a game that both of us have been playing, which are You Suck at Parking.

Phil: We've got another game that we touched on last time, Still Wakes the Deep from the people who made Dear Esther.

Phil: That's correct.

Phil: Finally, we've both been playing You've Beaten, Disco Elysium, an oldie, but certainly a unique game.

Phil: I think the only game that studio has ever developed or ever will develop given how they've broken up.

Phil: We've got a lot of games to go through today.

Phil: We also, the last episode, we posted a bonus episode last week.

Phil: It was your review of A Plague Tale Innocence.

Phil: Did you get in the time machine, go back and listen to that?

Tom: I did not, unfortunately.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Did you listen to it?

Phil: I did.

Phil: It was funny how many things that we said exactly the same way four years ago and with some slight variation.

Phil: And your review was incredibly cogent and far better than mine.

Phil: For example, in my review from the episode I identified the person who was hunting with the female protagonist at the start of the game as one of her workers or one of her servants.

Phil: You correctly identified him as her father.

Phil: And many other details that you were like dead on, absolutely dead on, that I got wrong.

Phil: It was quite...

Tom: It takes a fine level of skill to be able to dive into such fine details like that.

Phil: Well, the fact that the serpent was then killed, and then that didn't have any sort of impact on me, even though I do remember in the game, it came up quite a bit about her father being dead.

Phil: So, yeah, go back and listen to that.

Phil: Of course, our website is gameunder.net, if you'd like to catch up on that, and let's jump into the news.

Phil: Now, this first article is from a couple of weeks ago now, but it's still interesting.

Phil: Bungie, of course, the developer of Destiny and Halo, their former general counsel, so their former attorney, dished the dirt in a quite public way.

Phil: And as usual, we like it when you get some truth into the public arena.

Phil: Bungie's former chief in-house, oh, the story credit for this one goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Bungie's former chief in-house lawyer, Don McGowan, reckons it's a good thing that Sony is quote, inflicting some discipline on the Destiny studio, and helping management quote, run the game like a business.

Phil: Quote, to be clear, I'm not talking about the layoffs, I'm talking about forcing them to get their heads out of their asses and focus on things like implementing a method of new player acquisition, not just doing fan service for the fans in the bungee C-suite and running the game like a business.

Phil: This is the quote, this is the future I thought the company should embrace after the Sony acquisition, a studio, not an independent company.

Phil: That's pretty frank and frank talking.

Tom: I think it's coming from an interesting source here.

Tom: Oh, definitely.

Tom: Acting merely as their legal counsel.

Phil: Yeah, absolutely.

Phil: He was the chief legal officer.

Phil: He was the general counsel at Bungee, which is basically the top lawyer.

Phil: And then he was the chief legal officer at Pokemon.

Phil: And before that, he spent four years at Microsoft's legal team.

Phil: So why would you think that that's unusual given his position?

Tom: I just wonder how hands-on he would have been with the development team.

Phil: Well, I don't think he's criticizing the developers.

Phil: I think he's criticizing...

Phil: And he would have nothing to do with the developers.

Phil: He would have only been talking to the people at the top.

Tom: I think you'd need to see how it's being expressed down below too, though, wouldn't you?

Phil: Not necessarily.

Phil: I don't think that people who are general counsels typically want to have any interaction with anyone in the company other than the people at the very top, just for reasons of discretion.

Phil: So, yeah, I mean, if you look at Bungie, I mean, the history was obviously they were independent.

Phil: Microsoft bought them.

Phil: Then somehow, Microsoft and them split ways, and then Activision bought them.

Phil: And now Sony owns them.

Phil: When they came into Sony, they were giving advice, because at the time, as we discussed in the last episode, the leading executive of Sony at that time wanted Sony to lean into live service games.

Phil: And they said that they had of them in development at one time.

Phil: And I know that Bungie was the ones that knocked the Naughty Dog live action, live action, live service game on the head.

Phil: So when they first came in, I think they were coming in so that they could sort of drive that part of the company and give them some expertise that they lacked elsewhere.

Phil: And then since then, they've had layoffs and all the rest of it.

Phil: Again, like we speculated last time, since that executive left, now live service games are no longer as important.

Tom: And I think, didn't Bungie develop Destiny, not Studios?

Phil: Oh yeah, absolutely.

Phil: Bungie developed Halo, and then they developed Destiny when they went over to Activision.

Phil: Activision bought them on the premise that they were going to make Destiny and it was a year plan and now it has been years.

Tom: So these statements relate only to slash Halo Studios, right?

Phil: No, no, this is Bungie's former, this is Bungie, so Bungie that left Microsoft and then developed.

Tom: I think Bungie is still known as Bungie, not Halo Studios.

Phil: That's correct.

Phil: Yeah, Bungie is still Bungie.

Phil: That's a separate story.

Phil: this week changed their name to Halo Studios.

Tom: But these comments are about Bungie.

Phil: These comments are about Bungie.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Not the Microsoft company that has developed the last three Halo games.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Make sense?

Tom: Yeah, now it makes sense.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: And it does make sense because the company obviously was still being run by the founders, and still is being run by the people who were there at the start.

Phil: And so they obviously have a great amount of ego, and well-earned ego, I'd say, given the success of their only two games.

Phil: But yeah, obviously, this lawyer had a different opinion as to how they should be running the business.

Tom: I think it's interesting coming from a lawyer, that's all.

Phil: Oh yeah, because attorney-client privilege and discretion, like you'd never hear a lawyer say that.

Phil: They're supposed to take this stuff to their grave.

Phil: You know, who knows?

Phil: He may have left them in a bad way.

Tom: I think he must have left in bad circumstances.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: But still, even if you are as an attorney, you'd think that there'd be a level of discretion there.

Phil: You might tell people personally, but certainly not on a LinkedIn post, which the whole world can see.

Tom: I think that's the part I'm most intrigued about, is what elicited these statements.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Just another Halo News, and then we'll get into what we've been playing.

Phil: As I said, Team the division within, I'm sorry, Industries, the developer within Microsoft, that's responsible for the Halo franchise.

Phil: A couple of things, really notable things happened.

Phil: The least notable thing that happened is that they announced they're introducing a third-person mode into Halo Infinite.

Phil: One would imagine this could have no meaning at all, or it could be that it is them trying to broaden the appeal to players of Fortnite and other games where it's played in third-person.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: The second most notable thing is that they have changed their name from Industries to Halo Studios.

Phil: Obviously, they feel there's a need there to turn the page.

Phil: What is your opinion of Industries?

Tom: Well, they've only ever made Halo games, I believe.

Phil: Yes, that's right.

Tom: So the name makes some degree of sense.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I forget how the name came about.

Phil: But they're typically mostly been disparaged as a studio, which is what you can imagine being the people that went on to continue making Halo after the original company left the IP.

Phil: Even if they did just as good of a job, they're obviously going to get criticism because anything that people don't like, they can say, well, this is because Bungie's not doing it anymore.

Tom: Was it Halo Reach that I played on Game Start and thought was absolutely abysmal?

Phil: Halo Reach was the last game, I believe, developed by Bungie before they left.

Phil: So Bungie was responsible for Halo ODST and Reach.

Tom: Because there was one Halo PC game I played, which I was not a fan of, and I'm not sure whether it was developed by or Bungie.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So Team sorry, Industries has only ever developed numbered series entries.

Phil: So if that helps you remember which it is, if the game that you played had a jazz, soft jazz soundtrack that played while you were playing the game, and required you looking for colored pass keys to get around a city, that's Halo ODST.

Tom: It might have been ODST.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: ODST is, in my opinion, the worst Halo game and just not a good game in general.

Phil: Halo, a lot of people love it, by the way, because they were doing something different with it, which a lot of people liked.

Tom: I think Gargan enjoyed it.

Phil: Halo Reach is, to me, the absolute best Halo game out of all of them.

Phil: You spend a lot of the game not playing as Master Chief, and maybe you don't play, anyhow, I can't imagine that'd be right.

Phil: Halo Reach is a really good story, and it was their last game.

Phil: It was absolutely fantastic.

Phil: And that is not an uncommon opinion either.

Phil: So, yeah, I think they changed the name.

Phil: That could just be because a lot of people have moved on.

Phil: The name hasn't really helped them out, and probably just cementing that, hey, we are only gonna be focused on Halo related games.

Phil: They did announce-

Tom: As if they hadn't already been.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: They did announce-

Phil: As if, yeah.

Phil: They did announce that they are switching to the Unreal Engine

Phil: So they were using a bespoke engine that, parts of it were over years old.

Phil: This was actually providing them with difficulty in signing on new developers because you basically had to come into the job and leaving your expertise and tools behind, and then learning a whole new engine.

Phil: So this should help them out.

Phil: And just to show off what they've been doing, they released a trailer.

Phil: And it's not for a game or anything else, but they basically took a whole bunch of Halo assets and read to them in UEand released it on a very impressive trailer.

Phil: So hopefully, that means a smoother development, cycle for them as well.

Tom: And potentially less interesting game.

Phil: Yeah, potentially.

Phil: But I mean, I think if you allow people to use the engine that they're most familiar with, it enables them to spend more time on creativity and less time on just figuring out how to get this old engine to run.

Tom: I think arbitrary limitations can also encourage creativity too.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: So yeah, that's basically all your Halo news.

Phil: But the question comes up is to what could they do?

Phil: What could they do differently?

Phil: How could they make Halo more relevant?

Phil: They're obviously rebooting, restarting.

Phil: So to me, I was trying to think of what was different about Halo?

Phil: What was good about Halo?

Phil: And how do they get back to that?

Tom: I think Halo still is pretty relevant.

Tom: I mean, when Infinite was announced, it was one of the biggest trailers going around and had a lot of hype until it was released.

Tom: So I wouldn't say that Halo is lacking any relevance these days.

Phil: I think its relevance is lessened because, I mean, it's obviously going to be very important to people who were playing the original series.

Phil: That's years ago at this point.

Phil: So players are more interested in online shooters now than they are single player games.

Phil: Now, obviously, from Halo forward, Halo was an online shooter.

Phil: But it just doesn't really compare with the popularity of Destiny and Team Fortress.

Phil: No, Team Fortress, Fortnite.

Phil: They need to do something.

Phil: And I think that to me, the best element of Halo, the original best thing about Halo was the artificial intelligence in the old sense of the enemies in the game.

Phil: Like when you're playing those early levels on Halo, you know, just the AI of the grunts and all the different characters and how they changed what they were doing.

Phil: It was more human-like than, you know, a lot of most games at that time.

Phil: You know, it looked good and all that sort of thing, and it functioned well and the weapons were fun.

Phil: But to me, like, the really compelling part of it was that you really had to think about what you were doing because the people that you're playing in single mode or the characters in single mode were just as smart as in appearance to people you would be playing online in when you're playing, you know, Unreal Championship.

Tom: So as to the relevance of Halo versus Destiny for example, I was looking up sales and apparently Halo full stop has only sold million copies and Destiny has sold million copies.

Phil: How many has Halo Infinite sold?

Tom: The Halo series has supposedly sold million copies, and Destiny has sold million.

Tom: So it's sold nearly half of the entirety of the Halo series.

Tom: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: And I bet those first three games plus Reach and ODSD were where most of that million came from.

Tom: But I question if Halo can be a vehicle for that sort of success, because I think all of the appeal around Halo is, as one aspect of it, as you were saying, was the AI.

Tom: And I think in terms of it being an online game, the appeal is around the simplicity of the gameplay and the maps.

Tom: And it's a very classic team-based or single-player against every one first-person shooter, whereas Destiny is all about building a character as Fortnite and so on and so forth.

Tom: They're all about either building your own character or picking a character that has their unique play style and so on and so forth, as opposed to giving you a basic way of playing, with which you can express yourself through how you actually play, as opposed to choosing a template that you then follow.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think if you think about games like Halo and Uncharted and Gears of War, those are all games that are made.

Phil: We spend a whole bunch of money to put all of this on a plastic disc and you buy it and you play it.

Phil: And that's how we get our money and that's how we enjoy things.

Phil: But the model now is you make money with, by keeping people playing your game generationally.

Phil: And I don't mean, I mean console generationally, right?

Phil: So Fortnite has traversed two platforms.

Phil: GTA is now, I think, years old or approaching it.

Phil: And obviously when it first launched, it didn't have any online.

Phil: And now that's the only thing that people play with GTA.

Phil: Will GTA the single player game, sell a bazillion copies?

Phil: Absolutely, but it's the tail of the live service game that is what publishers are interested in, in terms of getting that money.

Phil: The reason why Fortnite hasn't fallen off the way that other games have.

Phil: What was the Battle Royale game that...

Phil: Player One's...

Tom: Player Unknown's Battle Royale.

Phil: Yeah, PUBG, right?

Phil: So PUBG's people, it's still a popular game, but nowhere near on the scale of Fortnite.

Phil: And the reason is, is because Fortnite is constantly changing.

Phil: They're changing...

Phil: Well, first of all, they're introducing a whole bunch of new content all the time.

Phil: And number two is that they actually make changes to the game play all the time, but have a diversity in there enough so that if you don't like it, you can still play it the old way.

Phil: And they've got the benefit of having a massive people, that they can sort of split those servers sort of thing down to people who want to play in build mode versus people who want to play in other modes.

Phil: So yeah, I think Epic has done an amazing job at what they're doing.

Phil: And I think that's what I was trying to talk to about in terms of its relevance.

Phil: I think it's going to be very difficult for the team, regardless of what they're called or what engine they use, to make Halo something that has appeal, and continues to have appeal.

Phil: Because Halo Infinite, as you said, when it first came out, sold a bunch, got good reviews.

Phil: But the problem was they couldn't keep up with the cadence of new content to hold people's interest.

Tom: Do they need to?

Phil: It certainly would be better for Microsoft to have a popular live service game than not.

Phil: Is it wise for them to be focusing on an IP that already exists?

Phil: You know, probably not.

Phil: That's the thing.

Tom: I think it makes more sense to try it with something else rather than convert what is still a very successful series in its own right into something that I think is more likely to fail than succeed.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, to really dumb it down.

Phil: Let's just say that, you know, cartoons like anime become very, very popular, right?

Phil: To the point where that's the only thing that young people want to watch is anime.

Phil: If you're a publisher, do you take an established live action, you know, movie franchise like Die Hard and go, well, people love Die Hard, so let's just make a Die Hard anime.

Phil: You know, it may work, it may not, but you can't just adopt the platform and the pastiche of this thing that's popular and apply it to your old media and think it's going to work.

Phil: Yeah, it's going to be interesting what all these old studios do, like Naughty Dog, you know.

Phil: It's just going to be interesting because as people like myself age out, the people that like single player games that are static and not dynamic, these older studios that are focused on building really expensive single player games on pieces of plastic, they're going to have to change or die.

Phil: We spent way more time on that than I thought.

Phil: Sorry, everyone.

Phil: Let's get into what we've been playing.

Phil: Tom, I'll let you take it.

Tom: I've been playing and finished Open Roads, which was developed by the Open Roads team, formerly known as Fulbright, who developed Gone Home.

Tom: And it's very much in the vein of Gone Home.

Tom: You're playing as a teenage girl who is at the opening, going through their grandmother's house, which has just been sold and the majority of her stuff has been sold.

Tom: And at an estate sale, and you're going through the remaining refuse, and your mother is there.

Tom: And as you pick up and look at, look at items and rotate them in the vein of Gone Home, you will often have an option to call your mother over, who will then come and talk to you in semi-animated style, fully voice acted, but the animations are semi-animated in a, what's the term, rotoscope sort of style.

Phil: Okay, so this is a walking simulator then?

Tom: Yes, essentially.

Phil: And it just came out?

Tom: It came out earlier this year.

Phil: Okay, and I know, I looked it up earlier, it is available for everything.

Phil: So the name of the game is Open Roads, and it's available on everything.

Phil: It has been getting mixed or average reviews from critics, but yeah, it sounds, what you've described so far, sounds pretty much identical to Gone Home.

Tom: It is, but it's a lot less detailed and developed.

Tom: I think the strife behind its development potentially shows a little bit.

Tom: In Gone Home, there was a myriad of items that you could pick up and interact with, and they all generally had some degree of purpose in building the world.

Tom: That's less so the case here.

Tom: There's a lot less you can interact with, and the things you can interact with, the things that don't prompt a call your mother over to discuss that item, don't really add to the setting or story to the same degree that they did in Gone Home.

Tom: So it's a much, I think, less engrossing experience in that sense.

Tom: But I think it's in other ways more interesting.

Tom: I think the plot and story is a lot more engaging.

Tom: Conversely, I think the themes are less devout.

Tom: Let's just say the conceit of the game is you discover a mysterious letter, I think it is, in the leftover things from the estate sale, that might indicate that the grandmother was in fact having an affair, which leaves you off on a chase to discover the truth, and given the interaction back and forth with the mother, it's, I think, more interesting than the text that you were just going through in Gone Home.

Phil: So it's kind of like Star Wars.

Tom: It is very much like Star Wars in the sense that it is a narrative.

Phil: Okay, so to the question...

Phil: No, I meant that it may turn out, this is the grandmother stuff you're going through, and your mom is there, right?

Phil: And she's had an affair.

Phil: It may turn out that your father might not be who you think he is, or your mother might not be who you think she is.

Phil: Like her, you could turn out that your mom was fathered by someone other than dear old granddad.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Which means genetically...

Tom: That is one of the possibilities.

Phil: It is certainly one of the possibilities.

Phil: Now, these questions you're asking and all this sort of thing, has it got like a dialogue wheel or multiple choice?

Tom: Yes, it does.

Tom: You can choose between, I think, three different dialogue options during the conversations with your mother.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, that annoys me, which we'll talk about when we get to Disco Elysium.

Phil: Not for anything Disco does, but, you know...

Phil: The thing I don't like...

Phil: I'll say it now.

Phil: The thing I don't like about these picking options is that there's most often not an option that I would pick myself.

Phil: But that's neither here nor there.

Phil: It's what the character would say.

Phil: And when I was playing Sue's Reign, S-U-Z-E-R-A-I-N, a game that we haven't discussed on this podcast, where you're playing the leader of another country, and he has to go through all these political decisions and decisions of war and this, that, and the other.

Phil: And I would go, okay, well, it's not really what I want to say, but I'm going to pick this option.

Phil: And in the case of that game, the words that he was saying was taken literally.

Phil: And finally, and it's like, no, I was saying that to get a reaction so that we could further negotiate, right?

Tom: I thought this was going to go in a different direction.

Tom: I thought you were going to say that.

Tom: Suzerain, I think you're playing as a dictator, right?

Phil: No, no, you're, you're, you're, you have been elected to what has been for the last many decades, a informal dictatorship, and you're trying to reform it.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: So I thought, I thought it was about a dictator, and you're going to say this was a game that actually gave you the dialogue choices you would have chosen.

Phil: But basically, like, you're in a negotiation, so okay, I'm going to take the hard line, so I can come back from it, and then we can continue to negotiate.

Phil: And so you pick the hard line one, and then you're like, oh, well, that's it, then.

Phil: We're going to war.

Phil: Bye.

Phil: It's like, wait, wait, wait.

Phil: That's no, you know.

Phil: So I find these dialogue trees and these, these text games where you're talking as a character, because I really get into who I was in that game, you know.

Phil: Like, and also too with Disco Elysium even in these early stages.

Phil: And then there's just stuff where I want to speak, but I think the character would speak, but they don't give me that option.

Phil: So the question about the dialogue tree, though, is does this, does this game have branching paths?

Phil: Does that, does it change how, what happens in the game significantly or not?

Phil: Do you know?

Tom: I don't think it changes things significantly.

Tom: I think it changes things to a minor degree.

Tom: Just in terms of dialogue, you might see or not see.

Tom: An example of this is, in one scene, you have a fight with your mother in a car ride, and you can attempt to talk to her after that and get some more dialogue options, or you can just sit there stewing and miss out on that scene.

Phil: No, okay.

Phil: So it doesn't change the plot though.

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: So as I was saying, I think it's more engaging, a narrative experience and Gone Home, but I think it's thematically, I was going to say less interesting than Gone Home, but then I remembered, I didn't think that the theme in Gone Home was particularly well-handled either.

Tom: But suffice it to say, in this game, the grandmother has potentially or potentially not done a very questionable thing, which is neither of the two protagonists in the story seem to give a shit about or think, have any thoughts on whatsoever, or other angles of the thing she has done on the other people who are involved are considered by the protagonists.

Tom: But this particular thing, which I think would in many people's minds be the most questionable action by any of the characters involved in the narrative is completely ignored by any character in the game, which just creates a weirdly unfulfilling and unsatisfying feeling to the story.

Phil: What is the theme of the story?

Tom: Well, I think we'd have to go into spoilers to get to that.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: To analyze it more deeply.

Tom: The game is about three hours, two and a half to three hours.

Phil: It's like a $game?

Tom: I will check how much it is.

Tom: I played it on Game Pass.

Phil: I think $is a fair deal for a...

Tom: I believe the full price is $

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, they're giving it away for free for now.

Phil: So they're trying to get as much.

Tom: So $per hour.

Phil: That's not too bad.

Phil: It's not too bad.

Phil: That's what we used to spend in the arcades back in the day, as long as it's a good experience.

Phil: So the story in Gone Home, as I remember, was very two-dimensional.

Phil: It was basically like you're a young lesbian that goes home and looks through your family's stuff and your stuff, and then just realizes that you've changed, and the world's changed, and you can never go home.

Phil: I'm not a fan of Gone Home.

Phil: Does that sound like right?

Tom: Something wrong with those lines, and I think joining the military was involved somehow.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, like I said, she became a lesbian.

Tom: So of course the military is involved.

Phil: No, no, no, no, I'm not saying anything more.

Tom: And you probably shouldn't either.

Phil: Not saying anything to denigrate the fine people of any gender who serve in our military forces.

Phil: Absolutely not.

Phil: The fine people who are doing a tremendous thing.

Phil: But is the story in this one as two-dimensional?

Tom: I think so.

Tom: I think the themes are as two-dimensional, but I think the way the narrative told is, in the one sense, worse than Gone Home, because at least Gone Home did make good use of the environment.

Tom: But I think it's more enjoyable here, just because of the back and forth between characters, because the thing is to make the story of Gone Home interesting.

Tom: I think you need the characters themselves to have some depth to them and have something interesting going on.

Tom: Whereas here, I think because it's voice acted, you don't need the characters to be as good to make them engaging, because you've got actors to do that for you.

Phil: How old is the character that you're playing, Tess?

Tom: I think

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, she's still young.

Phil: And then her mother, Opal, is presumably at least then.

Tom: So I think she's many thousands of years old, judging by some of the dialogue.

Phil: Her mother?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Opal.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: It's a very old type of name.

Phil: All right.

Phil: You haven't made a very compelling reason for any interest in this game, other than it's free and on Game Pass.

Phil: So I'm going to ask you this question.

Phil: This game is, we went on a large discourse a couple of episodes ago about walking simulators.

Phil: Well, what could walking simulators be like today?

Phil: Why would you revisit the genre?

Phil: What innovations does this game bring?

Phil: What is it, this team that obviously had something to do with making walking simulators popular, what have they, what have they done differently or brought new to this?

Tom: Given they've pretty much done everything here in Gone Home already, I'm not sure there's anything new about it.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I think despite my criticisms of it, I enjoyed it and I think the characters were entertaining enough from the beginning to the end.

Tom: And the environments were generally enjoyable to explore.

Tom: And the puzzles though, very, very simple, often just consisting of needing to find where a key was, that sort of thing.

Tom: I think it still gave you enough of a sense of progression that it was enjoyable.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, while you reach for the Dye of Destiny, I have one other question and that is, you mentioned that this team had some disruption or whatever.

Phil: What, I mean, first of all, how much of this team was with the original Gone Home team?

Phil: And what were the problems that the developer faced while developing this game, Open Roads?

Tom: I think Stephen Gaynor, who was the founder of Fulbright, was being a dickhead in some way or other.

Tom: I think they've ever gone in too much detail about it.

Tom: So he left under suspicious circumstances following this, but kept the name of the company.

Tom: But I think everyone else continued to develop the game, just without him.

Phil: I think I currently remember that I made maybe a Me Too allegation.

Phil: This was a couple of years ago at this point.

Tom: So you personally made the Me Too allegation that led to the downfall of Stephen Gaynor?

Phil: I don't think that I made any such thing.

Phil: I may have recounted some reports that were in the open source.

Phil: You know, I probably would not have come up with an original thought myself, certainly not one that would have defamed any individuals involved.

Phil: So, with that, get that diadestiny, get that elbow, that...

Phil: What do you call your top ankles?

Tom: What do you call your top ankles?

Tom: Your wrists.

Phil: Okay, get your wrists ready, and give us a score for Open Roads.

Tom: Two out of ten.

Phil: Sounds about right.

Phil: It doesn't quite sound about right, but it sounds about...

Tom: It also does, though.

Phil: It sounds about the percentage chance I have of ever downloading and installing and playing this game, or even looking at the visuals of it.

Phil: Hey, that brings to mind, what is the art like?

Phil: What's the visual art like?

Phil: What does it most look like?

Tom: I think that's, that's, I think, another strength of the game, except that the lighting changes from light to dark areas are a little weird, and they make the dark areas so bright that there isn't really much of a contrast between the two.

Phil: So they don't go full bright?

Tom: They do go full bright.

Tom: That's the problem.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: That's the problem.

Tom: But everything's got a nostalgic filter to it.

Tom: It's set in the early s, which I think they could have done more with the setting as well.

Tom: There are some allusions to September I think, but they're not really followed through much at all.

Tom: But maybe that's deliberate given the warmongering of Gone Home.

Phil: Briefly, the sound design.

Tom: The sound design, I think the voice acting is very good.

Tom: Yep, the two main characters both give very good performances.

Tom: I think there have been some criticism that the main character doesn't sound like she's years old or something, but I thought the performance was suitably teenager-y.

Tom: I think before we move on, though, we've got to go into spoilers briefly, because I think it's hilarious.

Tom: The way the mystery of the game is handled is thematically absolutely hilarious.

Phil: Okay, so for people who don't already know, we do put chapter markers in, so if you're not particularly interested in a subject that we're talking about, you can always skip to the next chapter easily on your podcast playing device.

Phil: So spoilers start now.

Tom: So essentially, as you said, there's suspicions that perhaps the grandmother had an affair, and the father of the mother and her sister is not the father they grew up with.

Tom: That's the suspicions.

Phil: Yeah, that's my suspicion.

Phil: That's the easiest one.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: And so obviously, the characters want to find out the truth, but neither of them seem to think this, like neither of them really seem to care or be potentially hurt by this revelation.

Tom: Not only do they seem to be not potentially hurt by this revelation, they don't really have any sort of moral commentary on what may have occurred, yet they do have moral commentary on other things, including, as it turns out, the fact that it was their father who was their father, but their father got involved in some illegal activities causing him to fake his death, and the person the grandmother was potentially having an affair with was actually their own real father after he'd faked his death, which they're shocked and horrified by and outraged by, but had no potential questioning or outrage over their mother slash grandmother have been potentially lying in a similar way to them over the same number of years.

Phil: That's not good.

Phil: That's not good.

Phil: That's not good.

Tom: It's weird though, isn't it?

Phil: It's weird.

Phil: It is weird.

Tom: It's weird.

Phil: It's always weird.

Phil: And as you were describing it initially, I was like, you know, how stupid of me just to assume that she was having an affair with a male.

Phil: Like, you know, in typical gone home style.

Tom: It should have been a woman, a lesbian.

Tom: That's the weirdest part of it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Oh, it just like me.

Phil: And you could come up with a better story in minutes easily.

Phil: We came up with two alternatives right now.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, that's fantastic.

Phil: So that game again, OpenRoad, it's available on everything for bucks or free.

Phil: If you have Game Pass subscription that you paid for.

Phil: The next game.

Tom: $a month.

Phil: I'm going to take the steering wheel now because I'm going to be discussing a game called You Suck at Parking, which I've got to just say as an aside, just so people can see behind the counter, behind the curtain rather.

Phil: Don't go behind the counter, please.

Phil: That's for staff only.

Phil: I was driving.

Phil: I got to my destination.

Phil: I pulled out my phone and for whatever reason, I see an email from you with the subject, You Suck at Parking.

Phil: I looked at my parking spot.

Phil: Look, I just parked the car.

Phil: I have still not yet even closed the door to my car and locked it.

Phil: I'm looking at the phone and it says, You Suck at Parking.

Phil: And I comedically, as if there was a camera on me, I looked up, look around.

Phil: I'm like, how does he know?

Phil: How does he know?

Phil: And then I read that you're actually saying, this might be worth a look.

Phil: So I did go down and download this game.

Phil: This You Suck at Parking is the name of the game.

Phil: I think it's a great name.

Phil: It is indeed.

Phil: It's developed by a company you've never heard of and published by one you haven't heard of either.

Phil: So the developer is Happy Volcano.

Phil: Publisher is Curve Games.

Phil: It is released in

Phil: So it's not a new game, but it is available on everything.

Phil: PC, PlayStation Switch, Xbox and got generally good reception.

Phil: But before I go into what genre it is, this might be a bit contentious.

Phil: What would you call this game?

Phil: What genre?

Tom: I would call it a racing game of sorts.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I would call it a puzzle game.

Tom: Well, apparently the previous game was a puzzle game.

Phil: Yeah, I would call this a puzzle game because basically, if you can imagine this game, you're looking down at the screen on isometric view and you're driving this tiny little car.

Phil: So you're controlling the car, not by steering with the camera position behind the car, or the camera positioned in the car.

Phil: It's like a RC Pro-Am.

Tom: It's an isometric perspective.

Phil: Isometric perspective, bird in the sky, and you're in charge of this blocky little car.

Phil: And you're not really racing against it.

Phil: Let's just talk about single player.

Phil: You're not really racing against anyone.

Phil: Basically, you're given a short level at the start with three parking spaces and you've got to park your car in these three parking spaces.

Phil: Seems straightforward.

Phil: There are other cars that are controlled by bots that get in the way and all the rest of it.

Phil: So what makes it difficult to park?

Phil: Well, number one, the physics on these cars is quite loose.

Phil: And I'll basically describe it as, so the inertia factor is basically tripled as to what it would normally would be.

Phil: So actually stopping is difficult, especially because you can't really break.

Phil: That is to say, you can break, but if you come to a full stop, your car will stop and the game will designate that as where you parked.

Phil: So if you slow down enough or press the brakes long enough, the car will actually park and you won't make it into the spot you're trying to get into.

Tom: And you cannot reverse.

Phil: You cannot reverse.

Phil: So there are other restraints as well.

Phil: So number one, no reversing.

Phil: So if you overshoot the parking spot, you can't just reverse and then break.

Phil: You've got to land in that parking spot.

Phil: Other restraints are you have a certain amount of fuel for each level.

Phil: I'm sorry, you have a certain amount of fuel for each parking space you're attempting to get into.

Phil: So if you take too long or drive too fast, or waggle around, you won't have enough petrol to make it to the parking space.

Phil: What other constraints are there, Tom?

Tom: Well, there are various obstacles you have to avoid, such as jumps, fiery boulders, flame throwers, guided missiles.

Phil: So each track has its own theme, so they might do one with magnets.

Phil: So if you drive your car too close to the super magnet, it will pull you into the magnet and away from where you need to go, which means you then have to restart.

Phil: So you also, another restriction is you have, you don't have a finite amount of cars.

Phil: So once you park, you'll go back to the starting spot and you'll go and try and park in the next parking spot.

Phil: If, because the inertia is turned way up, you're careening off of a cliff time and time and time again, at a certain point, the game will tell you, okay, well, this is your last car.

Phil: And finally, the each level is timed.

Phil: You've got an amount of time before you can, before the clock runs out.

Phil: So yeah, and then basically at the end of it, these levels can last a very short amount of time.

Phil: You can get through all three parking spaces in some cases in, well, I think when I'm doing my best, well, it varies widely, okay?

Phil: But then at the end, they show you on a leaderboard, either against the global community or your friends, what your time was and where you rank globally, and also against your friends.

Phil: So usually when I'm doing well, I am ranking around

Phil: If I'm just getting through, it's usually around to, you know, higher.

Phil: There's some pretty high numbers at one end of it.

Tom: I think I'm around

Phil: Yeah, okay, so, but what I found, Tom, was when I looked at my friends, you were not appearing anywhere on any of the levels whatsoever.

Phil: So have you not been playing the single player mode?

Tom: Pretty much.

Tom: I've mainly just been playing it online with a friend of mine, who I forced to purchase the game through peer pressure.

Phil: And other than myself.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: I think we've played a few times.

Phil: Yeah, we've played a few times.

Phil: And that was evident by my lack of skill, because when you go online, obviously it's a different format.

Phil: There's usually a lot more parking spaces at different obstacles.

Phil: And yeah, so the online is very different.

Phil: Maybe you can speak about that since I've only played it a couple of times with you.

Tom: Well, the online format is you go through four levels, four matches, sorry, which each consists of a litany of parking spots you have to take within two minutes.

Tom: And whoever wins the most parking spaces, selected match through that wins.

Tom: So because it's four levels, if you've got a tie, it's then based on the number of parking spots you manage to take.

Tom: But I think the structure is pretty similar to the campaign.

Tom: It's just that it's probably based on the more advanced single player levels.

Phil: And with the online play, it's often much more frenetic.

Phil: You can imagine all these stupid little cars bouncing around with no inertia.

Phil: You can easily, when there's not guard rails on the tracks, you can easily just nudge another player and they'll go flying for meters off of a cliff.

Phil: And so it has room for a lot of fun.

Phil: I think this game is, I can see why this game would be popular.

Phil: I don't know if it is popular or not.

Tom: I've tried to get into a public multiplayer game on a couple of occasions and I've yet to be able to find anyone else playing it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So there's two things there, right?

Phil: So number one is if I can, if you're getting into and I'm getting into like or in terms of the global ranking, that doesn't speak well for how many players there are and that's no knock on mine or your ability.

Phil: But also too, yeah, I tried the very first thing I tried to do because I'm unlocking achievements and stuff.

Phil: I'm playing this on PC, by the way, as are you, I believe.

Tom: Correct.

Phil: And this is available on everything, PlayStation Switch, Xbox, everything.

Tom: And it does have cross-platform online play.

Phil: And the name of the game again is You Suck at Parking.

Phil: Now, of course, when you do achieve the goal, they actually replace that with You Rock at Parking, which is great.

Phil: And it has a lot of fun.

Phil: It has a good sense of humor.

Phil: It has billboards around the thing.

Phil: And one of the puns is a movie called Breaking Bad.

Tom: I think the You Suck at Parking theme song is a different highlight.

Phil: Oh, you know, I haven't even really focused on the audio design of this game.

Phil: Can you talk about that?

Tom: Make sure you look up the sound, the, sorry, the theme music for it.

Tom: It's hilarious.

Phil: I think so it's, to me, this is a physics-based puzzle, especially when you're playing in single player.

Phil: It's not like a driving game.

Phil: It has nothing to do with driving, really.

Tom: I think it's a driving game.

Tom: I think it's all about the driving.

Phil: You're controlling a car, but they could just as easily be marbles.

Tom: I think the way the thing you're controlling functions is a car though, or a vehicle.

Phil: No reverse?

Tom: Not all cars have reverse.

Tom: Your reverse gear could well be broken.

Phil: I guess Formula One cars probably don't have reverse, do they?

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: Yeah, that's probably strip out a lot of that stuff.

Phil: I wonder if those touring cars, the ones they strip everything out of, I wonder if they can go in reverse.

Tom: I think they usually have reverse.

Phil: It'd be too hard to take that element out of a stock engine, I would think.

Phil: But anyway, the stock transmission.

Phil: Yeah, so I don't know how popular it is.

Phil: I think it should be really popular because it's imminently streamable.

Phil: Like, whenever I'm playing it, my family wants to crowd around and laugh at me failing at you, or to you, rather.

Phil: It's a fun game to watch.

Phil: My daughter just laughs the whole time.

Phil: And she gets frustrated when she tries it, because obviously, it could be frustrating if you expect to win all the time.

Phil: And then my wife, who is not much of a video gamer at all, it's such a crazy kind of game that even she was like, oh, let me give it a go, and had some fun with it.

Phil: It's certainly a good party game, I'd describe it as.

Phil: And yeah, I can definitely see the appeal of it.

Tom: I think it definitely works very well as a multiplayer game, either in person or online.

Phil: Yeah, I prefer, I think it would be great for couch co-op.

Phil: I think it'd be hilarious.

Phil: And I would, unfortunately, the only online experiences I've had was playing with you and your friend.

Phil: I would love to see this with eight people.

Phil: I think that would be a complete crack up.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So yeah, I give it a, if you've got, have you got anything else to say about the game or if I've forgotten anything?

Tom: I think that pretty much covers it.

Tom: But my friend was very, very reluctant to play it originally.

Tom: But I think he's enjoying it as much as we both have now.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I'd love to continue playing as well.

Phil: It's a shame because I, is there a way for you to host a game, but leave it open to the public as well?

Phil: So should anyone?

Tom: That's what I've been looking for, but I don't think there is.

Phil: Because that'd be the best way to do it.

Phil: And you know, guys, another thing we've got to explain is because we're in Australia, we're playing when we're playing, you know, the rest of the world usually is asleep.

Phil: So it is, you know, in big games, obviously, you can always get someone online.

Phil: But in something niche like this, it's not even playing Mario Kart at in Australia at a certain time of day, unless Japan's awake, it is difficult to get, you know, a lot of people.

Phil: So which sounds crazy, but that's just the way that it is.

Phil: I'm going to give this game a score.

Phil: Are you going to or now I should say, so how many levels are there?

Phil: There's like, I think I've done out of either or

Tom: There are a lot of levels.

Tom: I've been playing for about hours now, and I'm still encountering new levels.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And they're really, I think the level design is fantastic because they get progressively more difficult, but this not difficult enough that you want to give up.

Phil: And the penalty for failure is very light.

Phil: So when you get sent back to the starting point, you just go again.

Phil: You know what I'm saying?

Tom: The one criticism of the level design I would have is on some of the levels.

Tom: As you said, you just get sent back to the beginning.

Tom: Some of the levels have quite a long introductory section of track, and it's a little bit annoying when you are driving or seconds just to get to the branching pathway where you need to go to go and get the next parking spot.

Phil: I'm not a game developer, but just an idea, maybe a different button you could press that would sacrifice one of your cars to pick up basically where you were, but not within like meters of the parking space.

Phil: So you see what I'm saying?

Phil: Like if you press the left button or something like that.

Tom: Or just maybe design the level slightly differently, because that's not the case with a lot of the levels.

Tom: Most of the levels don't really have that issue.

Tom: The one other thing I would add that would actually be a useful addition would be a self-destruct button, because sometimes you'll end up falling off the map or stuck somewhere without being able to fully come to a stop and hence be reset, which wastes valuable time.

Phil: If you press up or down on the direction pad, if you're playing with a game pad, that does reset you immediately.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: If you were in a fail state.

Phil: So if as soon as you have not made it into the parking spot, you can just press up or down on directional.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: So there already is a self-destruct button.

Phil: Yeah, of sorts, but you can't just self-destruct for no reason.

Phil: Like you've got to enter the fail state.

Phil: So the second that you go off the track, you can press up or down on the directional.

Phil: And when I say up or down, I'm saying that because I'm not sure if it's up or down.

Phil: But on your cross pad, if you press one of those, it will take you back.

Phil: The one thing I didn't like about this game was the hub world.

Phil: So basically to go from one themed land to another.

Phil: So in each land, there's like four tracks and each track will have...

Phil: No, that's about right, yeah.

Phil: So in each land, there's about four tracks.

Phil: And so the thing I don't like about that was...

Phil: I found it completely unnecessary because you're just driving around in this hub world, which isn't fun or entertaining.

Phil: Just give me a menu, right?

Phil: Just give me a menu of the levels I've beaten and the levels I haven't.

Phil: And if I'm not yet ready for the ones that I haven't and have it locked, you know, I'd find that really a time waster for a game that respects your time in every other way.

Phil: I'm going to give it a score.

Tom: What's your score?

Phil: My score is out of

Tom: I'm going to give it a score too, from the die of destiny.

Tom: One out of

Phil: One out of

Phil: Wow.

Tom: That's unfortunate.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Because I think that you would give it a out of or possibly even a out of because that's how math works.

Tom: Could even be a out of potentially.

Tom: Really?

Phil: So you're, yeah.

Tom: I think if you had enough people in it, I think it will be easily out of experience.

Phil: All right.

Phil: You've heard the man.

Phil: I think I have, my Steam ID I think is Phil Fogg.

Phil: So I'm pretty easy to find, or Game Under Phil, or something like that.

Phil: But if you're interested in the front page of gameunder.net on this week's episode notes, just put in a comment.

Phil: Say, hey, what's your username?

Phil: And I'll let you know what it is.

Tom: Before we move on from the topic of cars, we were talking about open roads, then you suck at parking.

Phil: Well, there's two road related games, really, when you think about it.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: I recently I've got, I don't know if we've ever talked about it on the podcast, but I've got a Honda Integra GSI, which is the base model of the Honda Integra.

Phil: It's come up from time to time.

Phil: I believe it's white.

Tom: It's not white.

Tom: It's purple.

Phil: Oh, did you paint it?

Tom: No, it's an original purple.

Tom: I think it's called Blackberry, something along those lines.

Tom: I've got the paint code somewhere.

Phil: No, it doesn't matter.

Tom: It's an extremely rare, original color.

Tom: And if you look up Honda Integra colors, you will not find this.

Tom: The only way I could find it on Honda paint anywhere was on Accords, but it is actually an original Honda Integra color.

Phil: Okay, so I appreciate the humble brag.

Phil: Thanks for telling us about your purple Integra.

Phil: So on to what we've been playing.

Tom: We can't end there.

Tom: We can't end there.

Phil: Oh, I thought that was the point of the story.

Tom: No, that wasn't the point of the story yet.

Tom: We're going to a bigger humble brag.

Phil: We're all very impressed with you.

Tom: So when I got the car, my original testing for -speed that I could get, was I think an abysmal seconds.

Tom: Stock, it should be high nines to

Tom: Now, after owning it for about two years, the battery died.

Tom: And I think the battery must have been completely fucked from when I first got the car, even though it was supposedly a new battery in the car, because one issue that I had since I first got it was the headlights were very dull.

Tom: And I just assumed that it's because the plastic was pretty faded.

Tom: But in replacing the battery, the headlights gained the brightness of a new car's headlights, essentially, not the new ridiculously blinding headlights, but reasonable headlights.

Tom: And the to speed went from to seconds to about seconds flash to a high

Phil: Because you change your lights?

Tom: Because I changed the battery.

Phil: Oh, OK.

Tom: Which I found a little bizarre, because in theory, it shouldn't affect the car's performance that much.

Phil: I obviously know a lot about cars.

Phil: You travel at the speed of light, and that's why they're on the front of your car.

Phil: They tow your car along.

Phil: So if you change them to a driver's light.

Tom: And that's why the brake lights are there, to break the car.

Tom: That's why they light up behind you.

Phil: And they're dull and red.

Phil: That's why they pull.

Phil: Yeah, this makes total sense.

Phil: So, OK, so you've changed the battery in your car.

Tom: They're red because they're giving off more energy, which is why you can stop faster than you can accelerate.

Phil: Just like a bird reentering the atmosphere of the world.

Phil: Or some sort of space device.

Phil: OK, so you've replaced the battery, and that's improved the speed.

Tom: That's right.

Phil: Is it lighter?

Phil: Is it way less?

Phil: Could that possibly be the reason?

Tom: It's the same weight battery.

Tom: I can only assume that the poor quality or dying battery was affecting the fuel injectors or something of that nature.

Phil: Because what if it was actually a lighter battery, which is why it's going faster, because there's less mass in the car?

Tom: I think that the batteries were the same weight, though.

Phil: Yeah, you're getting older.

Phil: So maybe you're getting weaker.

Phil: So things that are less heavy seem heavy.

Tom: But I had to take the old battery out to put the new one in.

Tom: They weight the same.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: They're the same capacity battery, the same weight.

Phil: So thank you for sharing that with us.

Phil: So we'll go on to talk about this.

Tom: We're not finished yet.

Tom: We're not finished yet.

Phil: Oh, I'm sorry.

Phil: I thought that was a story.

Tom: So the car comes from an era where a lot of people modified their cars, right?

Tom: Now, I think modifying cars is less fashionable than it was back then.

Tom: And if you read on the Internet, people will say, if you're modifying your exhaust and your head is a new catalytic converter, unless you're doing other things to the engine or tuning it, it's not going to make much of a difference.

Tom: And it's really probably just for show, right?

Phil: Well, you should have the right to it.

Tom: That's the general attitude now.

Tom: Whereas in the past, the attitude was, do this, your car is going to be exponentially faster.

Tom: Which is the case in Gran Turismo as well.

Tom: That's why this is video game related.

Phil: So in Gran Turismo nowadays, if you mod your car, you can't really get the kind of advantages that you did back in the old days, where you saw a noticeable difference.

Tom: You still get advantages.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I mean, in Gran Turismo, it's the case that these things affect the performance.

Tom: Whereas in people's minds today, the general attitude of the car enthusiast today is less pro-modification.

Phil: I think other than when it comes to body types and gender, people in general are less prone to modification.

Tom: It's more about modifying yourself now rather than your machines.

Phil: Well, that's what I'm saying because people now have been brought up with phones that you can't open to even change the battery in, or tablets, or computers that you don't open.

Phil: Whereas in my day and in your day as well, if you didn't know what every part in the computer did, you're an idiot and if you couldn't switch them out, you know what I'm saying, is that basically the newer generations are more accepting of whatever they've been given is the way it's supposed to be, and it's the best and don't mess with it.

Phil: Whereas that's why car culture has taken a dip, I think.

Phil: And I think some of these video games, because this is a video game podcast, have also taken a dip because car culture just isn't what it was in the s through till whenever.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: So, okay, sorry, keep going.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: So, I wanted to modify it anyway, though, despite this change in generally accepted attitudes.

Tom: So, I did a lot of scouring and found what was meant to be a very high quality cat-back exhaust, a high flow catalytic converter, and the car came with very big headers slash extractors, whatever you want to call them.

Tom: But I had to take them off to get the roadworthy for the car, because I believe they're technically illegal.

Phil: Is that because of environmental type things or because of noise type?

Tom: I think because the theory is that you will be making the emissions of the car worse, which is not necessarily the case because if you are changing the exhaust system to a more efficient exhaust system, you will potentially be emitting more CObut you will also be using less fuel.

Tom: So which ends up being worse, you would have to actually test.

Tom: So after a long time, I was originally intending to put both of these things, all three of these things on the car with my cousin, but unfortunately it was impossible to find a catalytic converter that you could attach to the system without welding.

Tom: So I had to cave in to paying $for what was potentially a useless modification according to the internet.

Phil: Was it a weld?

Phil: You don't have a welder?

Tom: I think my cousin has a welder, but he was not confident in doing the quality of welding that would be required for an exhaust.

Phil: Yeah, I've got an arc welder for steel, but a lot of these things are often cast iron, so you need special rods and all this.

Tom: This was all stainless steel because I made sure to get good parts when I found them on Facebook Marketplace.

Phil: Yeah, look, if you asked me to do it for you, I'd probably be a bit reluctant as well because you can screw stuff up.

Phil: It's okay if I'm doing something for myself, but if I was doing something like that.

Tom: You don't want the exhaust falling off while you're driving?

Phil: No, no, actually an exhaust weld should be pretty easy.

Phil: Okay, but still I get it.

Tom: In any case, they did a good job.

Phil: You haven't done the job.

Phil: They haven't put it all together.

Tom: No, I didn't do it myself.

Tom: I had to get an exhaust shop to do it.

Tom: And they rang me just when they'd finished because they couldn't work out how to start the car because the immobilizer had come on.

Tom: Then they couldn't work out where the immobilizer button was.

Phil: Did you tell them?

Tom: I did tell them.

Phil: Kind of defeats the purpose, but okay.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: But it allowed me to hear the first time the car was started, and it sounds incredible.

Tom: It is ascenely loud, probably loud enough to cause hearing damage if you are in the car.

Tom: On the outside of the car, it is not as bad.

Tom: So when I went to pick it up, I was very pleased that it sounded incredible.

Tom: It doesn't just sound loud, it sounds very nice too.

Tom: I think Honda engines, a lot of people do not like the sound of.

Tom: A lot of people love the sound of them, and I think they sound great.

Phil: Yeah, me too.

Tom: And it sounds even better with a exhaust system that does not restrict the engine very much.

Tom: But as I was driving home with the stock exhaust system sitting on the seat, the top of the seat headrest next to me, threatening to decapitate me if I got into a crash.

Tom: So I was driving very carefully and slowly.

Tom: I couldn't help but think the car felt potentially a lot more powerful.

Tom: So as soon as I could, I did another -test.

Tom: But this was on a stretch of road, obviously not in Australia where this would be illegal.

Tom: A stretch of road I had done it on before that had better grip than on the road I had usually done it on before.

Tom: And such was the power that I was getting wheel spin from to above

Tom: So I sort of glanced at the time I had on to when I think I hit and I think I saw a or a there.

Tom: By the time the car was no longer wheel spinning, I was quite well above and it was at I think or seconds.

Tom: I got to a different lot of road that I was more used to, and that had the previous tests on, so it was a fair comparison.

Phil: That's the one near the children's school and the old person's home.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Yeah, that one is a great racing stretch.

Tom: Actually, no, I did another one before then, actually, and that was a

Tom: So by that time, I'd already...

Tom: But it wasn't the same road as the other roads, the other tests, sorry.

Tom: So I got a potential or and a definite

Phil: Wow, okay.

Tom: So I went to the other road that I'd done the other tests on for a fair comparison.

Phil: Old Faithful, yeah.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: And I got another there.

Tom: So from...

Phil: Now, is this on the die of destiny or is this your...

Tom: No, this is on the...

Tom: This is on the phone stopwatch.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So you're using your phone while you're doing this.

Phil: Excellent.

Tom: In my lap, I'm holding it.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But it's in my lap.

Tom: It's a manual.

Tom: I can't hold the phone.

Tom: So I put it in my lap, held between my legs, and I'm looking down at my phone.

Tom: See the nubs.

Phil: And you can be reached at Tom Towers.

Tom: And here's my car's registration.

Tom: Then you can report to Vic Royce.

Phil: That's...

Phil: I think we all...

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So this sounds like a great...

Phil: Isn't it great when you make a change to something and it actually works fine and you didn't...

Phil: You don't...

Phil: First of all, you don't break it.

Phil: Because, you know, when you're fixing a PC or something, usually you break something a few times.

Phil: Hopefully, you don't break it to the point where you have to get new parts.

Tom: Well, we went from zero to seconds to potentially five or six, but definitely seven.

Tom: So that's a % increase, not in power, but in speed.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: From what, including all the parts and the labor, was a $modification.

Phil: Just from the exhaust.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: On a, what is now probably an $car.

Tom: When I bought it, it was a $car.

Tom: So you've taken a $car you've spent.

Tom: I should probably include the tires actually as well.

Tom: So the tires were, I think, I got them at a good price, I think maybe about $

Tom: So let's say we spent $on the car and it's now as fast or faster than the fast version, the non-base model of my car, which if you want to buy that will be about at least $

Tom: Now maybe $

Tom: So it's still about half the price of that car.

Phil: And it's good for the environment too.

Phil: It's a

Tom: It uses a lot less fuel.

Tom: Before on a tank of petrol with a large amount of aggressive driving in it and non-freeway driving, I would get about kilometers per fuel tank.

Tom: This time I got kilometers.

Phil: And it's good for the environment too, because you're still using a device that was invented, what, in ?

Phil: That's when the car model for a year.

Phil: So that's, you know, other people...

Tom: And built in

Phil: Okay, yeah, this one's from

Phil: Okay, well, you can say that's a -year-old car, man.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: That's like a vintage car at this point.

Tom: It is.

Phil: Yeah, no, that's fantastic.

Phil: That's fantastic.

Phil: Now, are we ready to talk about a game?

Tom: Yes, we are.

Tom: Well, no, the one thing I'll add is the reactions of people to the car is hilarious now, because before, it was a car that a lot of people liked and would always get a lot of looks.

Tom: Now, it gets even more good looks.

Tom: It gets a lot of bad looks as well now, which I think are hilarious, particularly from women.

Phil: If you can get an accurate recording of the exhaust, I'd like to include it in the show either now or at a later date.

Tom: I'll try and get one.

Phil: Now, the game we're talking about next is Still Wakes the Deep.

Phil: This is developed by the Chinese room, the people who made Dear Esther and published by Secret Mode.

Phil: It's a psych horror game released this year, available on PC for bucks, PlayStation, Xbox, and is on Game Pass as well.

Phil: Has been getting pretty good reviews, eights and sevens and threes out of fives and things like that.

Phil: You play it in the first person perspective.

Phil: And the game is set in December which is kind of cool, kind of like Aliens, I guess, which was also set back then in the s or s.

Phil: A similar type setting too, because you're isolated, you know.

Phil: And it's on an oil rig, I should have said that, in the North Sea of England.

Phil: And in the game, you are playing as a Glaswegian, that's someone from Glasgow for you that don't know, an electrician.

Phil: So sort of got some dead space elements there as well, where you start the game just as a regular schmo.

Phil: And, you know, presumably, encounter all sorts of weirdness, otherwise it wouldn't be a video game.

Phil: So a horror bent after having done Dear Esther, which was a straight up psychological game, but in a very different way.

Tom: They did also previously develop amnesia, a machine for pigs, which was horror.

Tom: And the first mod they made, Corsacova, I think, I'm not sure if you would necessarily call it horror, but it had, I think, more, certainly more disturbing themes than Dear Esther.

Phil: Was that based, I think I really enjoyed that.

Phil: That was based on the tennis player Anna Corsacova, which I really enjoyed quite a bit.

Phil: At least, I enjoyed the tennis player.

Phil: But if this game is based on her, I should check that out.

Phil: Now, I've made the same mistake again.

Phil: Last time we talked about the Chinese Room, I forgot all of their games and we spent minutes talking about all their other games.

Phil: So I assume that you have now finished Still Wakes the Deep?

Tom: Yes, I have.

Tom: I think I gave first impressions on the first, on the previous episode, non-bonus episode.

Tom: I think it is probably about maybe six hours or so.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: No, I don't want to repeat any of the questions that I asked last time because I've forgotten what they are.

Phil: So I may ask some of them again.

Phil: Sorry, listener.

Phil: But if you could just basically, if you just want to give us your description of the game, that'd be fantastic.

Tom: Well, I remember mentioning in my previous impressions that there was an interesting mechanic where if you press the middle mouse button, you look behind yourself.

Tom: But at that point, the interaction with the monsters in the games had not really made any use of it.

Tom: I'm happy to say that as the game does develop, you are confronted with more and more stealth sections, and you do get the opportunity to actually make use of that button and it is well utilized.

Tom: As we said, it is a horror game, but I think unlike Amnesia and Mean for Pigs, it is very linear.

Tom: The stealth sections, they have basically an open area and on the sides of it, there'll be little sections to hide in, and you can pick up objects and throw them to distract the monsters in the game.

Tom: And it's really as simple as that, and it funnels you all the time in certain directions, which I think is to the detriment, both in terms of building tension in the game play, I think also in terms of making the setting feel more alive and real.

Tom: Because the setting aesthetically is great.

Tom: It's, as you said, set on an oil rig, but not just any oil rig.

Tom: As you said, the s oil rig, it's in the North Shore and is populated by Scotsman.

Tom: So it's a great setting in terms of narrative and aesthetic.

Tom: But in terms of your interaction with it, I think it is underutilized to a degree.

Tom: It's got the classic yellow for, here's where you can jump and that sort of thing, which I think takes you out of the immersion and I don't think is really necessary.

Tom: Because particularly with how linear it is, it's pretty obvious usually where you can and cannot jump.

Phil: I agree, but focus testing will have introduced all that.

Phil: I think it is a game we both played recently.

Phil: Oh, Plague Tale, like everywhere that was accessible or interactive with the player, they had like bird guano.

Phil: And it's like, how much bird guano?

Phil: Really?

Phil: Seriously?

Phil: Like, there's got to be another way.

Phil: And obviously people would have developed other ways, but I know they're trying to de-gamify it in terms of you know, they don't want stuff glowing or when you pointed it, you know, for it to change in any way.

Phil: But there's got to be a better way than just the old splashing up the yellow paint, which I think Uncharted started that.

Phil: Yeah, there's definitely got to be a better way, especially as you said, in a setting that's so limited, you should have to figure stuff out for yourself a little bit.

Phil: Mirror's Edge, did they do that in Mirror's Edge?

Tom: They did, but in Mirror's Edge, it had a very minimalist aesthetic, so I think it actually worked there.

Phil: Yeah, but there's also a lot of places with the splashes of red, but they also had spaces where you were just presumed that you could climb there because you could climb pretty much anywhere.

Phil: But what a great game that was.

Phil: Speaking of Alien Isolation, it's coming up on its -year anniversary.

Phil: Did you hear that Sega has announced that Creative Arts or whoever makes it, they're doing a sequel to it.

Phil: Did you hear that?

Tom: No, I do not.

Phil: Did you play the original?

Tom: No, I do not.

Phil: I have it on Steam if you want to give it a go.

Tom: I think I also have it on Steam.

Phil: Yeah, I've tried it.

Phil: I've tried to start it once or twice and just it hasn't taken.

Phil: But for no reason of the games, it's just that I think sometimes with this content like Alien Isolation, the content is so dense that sometimes I have at this point in my life a limited amount of time to play games.

Phil: So I'm not really looking for a dense, ponderous experience usually when I'm playing.

Phil: I can take it in small elements, but not in a or -hour game.

Phil: Sorry to interrupt you there.

Phil: I just wanted to know that.

Tom: No problem.

Tom: I think the other thing that is a little disappointing is the narrative is mixed compared to, I would say, Dear Esther, the Scotchman is a great way to create and unique characters for the story and the way they interweave the main character's backstory, both into how the horror unfolds and also the general narrative, I think is engrossing and enjoyable.

Tom: But the lovecrafty and horror taking over the oil rig, I think, could have been done in a more interesting way than it was.

Tom: I think the main issue is the translation to a different medium where, and also I think the other issue is not just a translation to another medium, but also I think not engaging with the themes that make a lovecrafty and horror interesting, which is it's all about either a fear of the unknown or a fear of the other.

Tom: That's what makes it interesting and horrifying as opposed to comical and absurd.

Tom: Really, it's a combination of both.

Tom: But here, it's not comical and absurd in that the stuff is depicted openly, so you don't get any sort of unknown element occurring.

Tom: You get abstraction that's very clearly referencing A Space Odyssey, with colors and non-animal, yet clearly sentient entities taking over the oil rig, and develops and develops, as would in Lovecraft, into a final confrontation at the end.

Tom: But again, it's not really too much of a point.

Tom: It sort of doesn't really help develop any of the characters' stories either.

Tom: It sort of gets in the way of the characters' story developing towards the end, due to how the conflict with this entity taking over the oil rig needs to be solved.

Phil: By blowing up the rig, obviously.

Tom: Yes, exactly.

Phil: Is that a spoiler?

Tom: It is and it isn't, because I think that was pretty obviously the required conclusion to the events of the game.

Tom: But in Lovecraft, that might occur in some stories.

Tom: In other stories, it wouldn't necessarily occur.

Tom: It could be that actually it doesn't develop anywhere, because who knows what was even going on.

Tom: Or it just continued to spread indefinitely throughout the world.

Phil: So does this game conclude with your Glaswegian electrician Kaz being seen to be walking away and then dropping a flame and in a ball of explosion behind him as he walks slowly?

Tom: Correct.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Okay, good.

Phil: Then the good has a good story with a good conclusion.

Tom: I think yes and no.

Tom: If it wasn't so directly inspired by Lovecraft, I wouldn't be complaining.

Tom: But because it is, I think you need to step it up a notch and you need to engage with what actually makes those things interesting.

Tom: Because you've got what is a Ken Loach style slice of life drama about the main character who is escaping, I think, the law because he assaulted someone.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And his family is at home and his wife tells him, if he doesn't come home and face whatever consequences occur, she's going to leave him and take his two daughters with her, which is in not surprisingly for the Chinese room.

Tom: Interesting and engrossing plot line.

Tom: You've also got a father figure on the rig with you.

Tom: If you got this position there through his connections, and because he knows you well.

Tom: And so there's a whole subplot as the horror is unfolding with him, which I think is a highlight, but it doesn't use much more interesting inspiration with the same ambitions as the things it's taking inspiration from, which I think leaves it and makes it end up being slightly disappointing when it otherwise wouldn't have been disappointing.

Phil: So does the fact that this game was available on Game Pass, which is presumably how you played it, did that did not paying for the game change how you valued the game or viewed the game?

Phil: Like if you'd paid for it, you're certainly making an investment into it.

Phil: Would you then have had a different?

Phil: And you're going to say no, but I would ask you just to consider with that.

Tom: I would say no, because I'm still paying for Game Pass.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You still want to get your value out of it.

Phil: And you've got to download it.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Megs and gigs and all.

Tom: It's using the time on Game Pass.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: That's what I would otherwise be devoted to something else.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And that's again, the name of the game is still wakes the deep.

Phil: Now, is this developer still together?

Phil: Unlike, I mean, like the other team has obviously had some trouble.

Phil: Is the Chinese room still together making games?

Tom: I believe so.

Tom: And despite my criticisms, it was still overall well worth playing because it is a very unique setting with a unique cast and a unique story.

Tom: I think the slice of life element of the story is very enjoyable.

Tom: And aesthetically, the way this unknown entity is taking over the oil rig is very satisfying.

Phil: Oh, I bet that it has great potential for really good audio design too, with creaking and things getting crushed and all that sort of thing happening at sea.

Tom: That's actually another thing that I think is disappointing about the linearity of the design because with the nature of the monsters, if they notice you, they're extremely fast.

Tom: And when you're hiding, you can't necessarily see them, but you can hear where they are very clearly.

Tom: So there's a great tension there that is not as strong as it would be if you were not in a tiny confined space where just through a quick glance at it, you know where all the hiding places and things like that are.

Phil: I'm going to ask you a question about the dialogue actually, because this is set in s and you're playing with a bunch of Scotsmen.

Phil: I think earlier you said Scotchmen.

Phil: Scotchmen is someone who likes scotch, who likes drinking scotch.

Phil: The actual preferred term in Scotsmen was Scottish.

Phil: But it's set in s with a bunch of Scottish people.

Phil: So obviously the script was very authentic, and it included some politically incorrect dialogue about various races and sexual preferences that would have been said during the times by working class people in a blue collar setting.

Tom: Unfortunately, it didn't, even though there were some people on the oil rig of a non-white Scottish background, there was no dialogue that might have arisen in such a situation, if it were more realistic.

Phil: The reason why I say that is not because I welcome that sort of dialogue or language, but again, if you're writing an authentic thing that's set in a time and place with authentic characters, I think for some authenticity, you don't have to lean on it.

Phil: It doesn't have to be something regular.

Tom: But that's the thing.

Tom: I think it should be there for a number of reasons, because the slice of life stuff, I said Ken Loach-like.

Tom: It's very clearly inspired by Ken Loach.

Tom: It's not just Ken Loach-like.

Tom: It's clearly inspired by Ken Loach, just as it is inspired by Lovecraft and Stanley Kubrick.

Phil: And I think if you did something...

Tom: So if you're going to be inspired by those sorts of people, and you are as good a writer as you are Dan Pinchbeck, you've got to do better.

Tom: You've got to lean into that and follow through on it, I think anyway.

Tom: Otherwise, it's window dressing, essentially.

Phil: I agree with you percent.

Phil: The second thing I would say is that by using that, it would startle the modern ear.

Phil: And then that is good for your storytelling as well, because you're reminding them, hey, no, this isn't in the Western world sort of thing.

Phil: This is like a different setting.

Phil: And I think it would add to the credibility of the character and the story.

Phil: And yes, I would use it as a gimmick.

Phil: But is it a gimmick or is it an effect for better storytelling to tell the person who's listening?

Phil: You know what I'm saying?

Phil: Like, in a joke, for example, you will often say things that are completely not correct to say or could be abusive or hurtful in any other setting if you weren't joking.

Phil: But in using that language, it has that power that connects synapses faster for the person who's listening.

Phil: And that's what gives it the effect, either comedic or dramatic.

Tom: I think we could even use it to subvert Lovecraft.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: So given that the thoughtfulness of Dear Esther, I think it's sad that if that didn't occur to the writers, then I think it speaks to the level of their capability and competence.

Phil: So it most certainly must have come on their mind, and the fact that it isn't included because controversy, and how that would be misinterpreted and all the rest of it, I think is unfortunate that the art form is not mature enough, the commercial art form is not mature enough, that you can't make what would be a logical and very creative choice.

Tom: I think that must be the reason.

Phil: One would think, but maybe we're all completely wrong, and it never even occurred to us, you know?

Phil: And it's not that kind of game, end quote.

Phil: And quite so, like if this was, if New Circuit Parking was set in s Scotland, I would not expect, if there were dialogue in the game, I would not expect to hear, you know, people denigrating other people on the basis of their race or sexual preference.

Phil: But if you're telling an immersive story where you're trying to, you know, make this world as real as possible, which is what's making the supernatural thing that's happening in this world so amazing, then you're doing your game a disservice.

Tom: I think if you're inspired by Lovecraft and you're not totally illiterate, it's a conscious choice to know whether you're including themes like that in your game one way or another.

Phil: I agree.

Phil: Do you have anything else to say about this game critically before you break out that die of destiny and get your top ankles loosened up?

Tom: I think that probably covers it.

Tom: I think overall, despite being disappointed that the references don't go beyond being merely references, it's still, I think, a unique and enjoyable experience.

Tom: So I certainly don't regret spending six hours of my game past time in playing it.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Okay, well, if you just want to get that Diadestiny ready.

Tom: Here it goes.

Phil: Oh, in a, what the heck?

Phil: What was that in a glass?

Tom: That's in a bowl, a glass bowl.

Phil: Well, come on, man, that's got to have an effect on the score.

Tom: Gets a six out of ten.

Phil: Yeah, I thought so.

Phil: Yeah, see, you play games, you play games.

Phil: That Diadestiny is a tool.

Tom: The previous two rolls were in the same bowl.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, that goes that theory.

Phil: So six out of ten from the Diadestiny?

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Thank you very much for that summary.

Phil: So now we're just going to go to a new story that broke just today.

Phil: I think it's notable enough.

Phil: It certainly got my attention when I woke up at four o'clock.

Phil: I saw the headline, Nintendo Makes Formal Hardware Announcement, and I immediately downloaded the podcast that had that there as its story.

Phil: It said that it was alarming.

Phil: And this certainly got my attention.

Phil: I was like, well, I've got to listen to this podcast now.

Phil: So I immediately downloaded it.

Phil: Forgot about all the other downloads I usually listen to in the morning and went straight to the story.

Phil: And after they spent about minutes where you couldn't skip chapters talking about this, that, and the other, they revealed Nintendo's new hardware, which everyone listening to this podcast already knows what it is.

Phil: It's an alarm clock.

Phil: It's $USD alarm clock called Alarmo.

Phil: And it makes noises whenever you move, okay?

Phil: So it's got a motion sensor in it.

Phil: It's an alarm clock you put beside your bed.

Phil: And basically, it can play sounds effects from Super Mario Odyssey, Splatoon or Breath of the Wild.

Phil: Tell me if I'm wrong.

Phil: This sounds like a nightmare.

Phil: Something that makes noise every time.

Phil: Something you put near your bed that makes noise every time you move.

Tom: Did you mention the price?

Phil: $USDs.

Tom: Or Australian, $.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And on the picture of it, which looks like Mickey Mouse's outfit, basically it's a red sort of cylinder with a white dot on top of it.

Phil: It's got a Wi-Fi indicator and also an email indicator or notification indicator.

Phil: So I'm thinking this is something you can sync to your phone and download an app for blah, blah, blah.

Phil: And your phone is the interface for it.

Phil: Look, hey, Nintendo, release whatever you want.

Phil: First of all, bad on that podcast, I deleted the episode immediately and unsubscribed from them, for that sort of deceptive clickbait, which I never engage in clickbait, as you know, from how many headlines in our community at thevgpress.com.

Phil: Okay, I'm going to tell you some more details and then get your reaction.

Phil: Quote, Alarmo can't detect a specific person.

Phil: So if two or more people are sleeping in the same bed within range of the sensor, the alarm is, what are they, like Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, like this seven people in a bed.

Phil: So basically, it's not like seeing you, it's seeing whoever's in the bed.

Phil: So if two or more people or a dog or a cat or an iguana are sleeping in the, I'm not saying that I sleep with iguanas, are sleeping in the same bed within range of the sensor, the alarm may stop when one person gets out of the bed, but restart once it detects that there's still someone in the bed.

Phil: The alarm will stop completely once everyone is out of the bed.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And it basically makes like coin noises or I'll play some of the sound effects from the video here.

Phil: It does come with a sleepy sound setting, which is nice.

Phil: It might be soothing to you.

Phil: But this sounds like a bloody nightmare.

Tom: I don't understand why.

Phil: You don't understand why it exists or why it sounds like it's a nightmare.

Tom: Why it exists.

Phil: Why would it make sounds if you move your body?

Tom: Doesn't make the sounds if you don't move your body.

Phil: What if you're having sex?

Phil: You know, it makes the mushroom sound at a certain point.

Phil: You know, what is it detecting?

Phil: How much of it is it sensing what's going on?

Phil: And how responsive is the sound effects according to what it's picking up?

Phil: And is it reporting it back to the Chinese secretly?

Phil: Because no doubt that's where this thing is made.

Phil: But, you know, I say good for Nintendo.

Phil: You know, they got their start making physical toys and stupid little gimmick things.

Phil: So if they want to go back to it, that's fine.

Phil: You can play Splatoon lyrics too.

Phil: So, you know, maybe, you know, the sound of a gun spurting might, you know, that sound effect might come up if it detects a certain activity.

Phil: You know, who can say?

Phil: Who can say?

Phil: Yeah, so anyway, that's news from today.

Phil: I thought it was relevant because it is about Nintendo hardware.

Phil: The final thing, I guess, well, this is a deep question from a listener of another podcast.

Phil: In a segment, we creatively call Phil's questions for Tom from other people's podcasts.

Phil: Frank from an undisclosed location writes, what gaming genre would you eliminate?

Phil: So if you could roll the die of destiny and select any gaming genre you wanted to get rid of forever, it doesn't exist, it never existed.

Phil: First of all, would you?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: But remember, there was a time where we easily would have said, I'll get rid of walking simulators.

Phil: So be careful.

Tom: I'm very careful.

Tom: I've got an easy answer.

Tom: Character action games.

Phil: Character action games like Bayonetta.

Phil: Really?

Tom: If we have to call them character action games, they're not worth having around.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Now, are you talking about getting rid of a genre description or getting rid of a genre?

Phil: Because you don't like that genre.

Tom: Well, everyone's calling it that.

Tom: So the only way to get rid of the description is to get rid of the genre.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I guess we didn't give you the option of getting rid of a class of people.

Phil: Otherwise, we would have solved it.

Phil: What would I pick?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: I don't know that I hate any genre of game.

Phil: Would I get rid of clickers?

Phil: I can't say that I've ever played one knowingly, so I can't say that I get rid of it.

Phil: Because if you told me that I don't like deck-based rogue likes, I would have said, yeah, get rid of that.

Phil: And then I wouldn't have gotten to play Slay the Spire, which is one of my probably, well, it's most definitely one of my top games of all time now.

Phil: So I don't want to be a real-time strategy games.

Phil: I really don't like them because they make me really super-stressful, but I've had some of the best experiences gaming-wise, playing real-time strategies like Brutal Legend and Halo Wars, for example.

Phil: So yeah, I'm going to do the usual Phil Fogg thing and not eliminate any genre of video game.

Tom: I thought you have to.

Phil: Well, okay, but then I will.

Phil: I'll eliminate what has happened to racing games and sport games with these loot boxes.

Phil: It's so stupid.

Phil: You can't play a proper sports game anymore without it constantly pressuring you to try and buy stuff.

Phil: And even like Forza Horizon, a game from a reputable company like Microsoft, is almost impossible to play because they're constant like, hey, now that you put the $game, % of it isn't accessible to you.

Phil: You've got to pay human money to get to it.

Phil: So I would eliminate pay for play basically, because it's a scourge on gaming.

Phil: Now people might say, well, Phil Fogg, if you eliminate pay for play, then there goes all your precious little arcade games from your dumb childhood.

Phil: But that's not what I'm talking about.

Phil: I'm not saying games should be free, but...

Tom: I think you've got to include them, because what you're describing isn't so much a genre as a mechanism.

Phil: Or exploitative.

Tom: You've got to make sacrifices for this.

Phil: Yep, that's it.

Phil: Hey, with that, we're going to close out the show.

Phil: Thanks for listening to Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: Can you believe that, Tom?

Tom: It's been a long time, more than years.

Phil: Yeah, I don't even know where I was or what I was doing at that time.

Phil: I guess I could go back and listen.

Tom: Game Under Podcast.

Phil: That's apparently what I was doing.

Phil: We've got a lot of resources, a lot of reviews covering games from that time at our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, use our comment section from the front page.

Phil: You don't have to register.

Phil: We don't ask for your email.

Phil: Well, it does, but just put in a fake one.

Phil: It doesn't matter.

Phil: Just leave us a note, a comment.

Phil: It's always great to hear from listeners.

Phil: We really appreciate it and we really appreciate you listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Game Under Podcast Episode 161 Bonus

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

In this bonus episode Tom Reviews Asobo’s A Plague Tale: Innocence. Originally recorded in June 2020.

Game Under Podcast 160

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

00:00:11 Intro

00:00:51 News - Sony Sony Sony

00:01:55 Gran Turismo Memories

00:08:35 News - Astrobot reception

00:10:00 News - Concord's Crash Landing

00:16:45 News - PS5 Pro Detailed

00:26:46 News - Gearbox Bigger than Beatles?

00:30:55 News - Warhammer 40k Spacemarine 2

00:33:29 What Playing: Still Wakes the Deep

00:40:49 What Playing: Plague Tale: Innocence

00:52:27 What Playing: Disco Elysium

01:21:47 Emails

Transcripts
Tom: Hello and welcome to Episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host, Tom Towers, and I'm joined as ever by Phil Fogg.

Phil: Hey, Tom.

Phil: Thanks, man.

Phil: Thanks for welcoming us to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I felt like that as ever was wrought with disappointment.

Phil: Yeah, I pick up the subtext, and I'm sure our listeners do as well.

Phil: I'm sure they all want a better co-host for this podcast, but here we are at episode and they've stuck with us this long.

Phil: We may as well stick with the format.

Phil: And I think maybe we just jump straight into the news.

Phil: That's what people want to hear.

Phil: This story is called Sony Sony Sony.

Phil: Credit to VGCharts, The Financial Times, Eurogamer, playstation.com, Wall Street Journal, you name it.

Phil: We're all talking about it.

Phil: Sony is the talk of the town this week.

Phil: And it's their turn to be whacked around like a piñata.

Phil: They're celebrating years of playstation.

Phil: Can you believe that?

Phil: years since the playstation was released?

Tom: I'm surprised I'm older than the playstation, actually.

Phil: I'm surprised you are as well.

Phil: It's shocking.

Phil: But, yeah, years, man.

Phil: I think the Dreamcast is celebrating its th, right?

Phil: On September th, which seems like a long time ago as well.

Phil: So anyway, Sony is celebrating the th year.

Phil: Judging by the official website, this means they're giving away a few digital trinkets to the masses, like a free online gaming weekend for some games, you know, some soundtracks.

Phil: They've got something called My First Gran Turismo, which appears to be just a demo for the current Gran Turismo.

Tom: Sounds like a segment we might have.

Phil: My First Gran Turismo does sound like that.

Tom: Let's turn it into one.

Tom: What was your first Gran Turismo?

Phil: Okay, thanks for asking.

Phil: We've covered this in the previous show, but I was an Nadopter, right?

Phil: I was so much an Nadopter that when I was playing Vigilante on the NI was like, wow, car combat.

Phil: This is like doom with cars.

Phil: This is incredible.

Phil: Not even knowing anything about that.

Phil: It was a complete ripoff of twisted metal, but I was an Npurist.

Phil: I thought it had better graphics than the playstation's, you know, crazy underwater graphics.

Phil: But then I walked into a Vietnamese video rental shop and they had Gran Turismo.

Phil: And I was like, wow, that looks way better than Cruisin USA.

Phil: That's not a sprite based game.

Phil: That's a polygonal game.

Phil: That looks kind of good.

Phil: And that sort of planted the seed.

Phil: So when I did have the opportunity to buy a playstation yeah, one of my first games I played.

Phil: Well, the second thing was Parappa the Rapper.

Phil: Once I saw Parappa the Rapper, I went out and bought a playstation that day, albeit a used one for bucks.

Tom: What would that be in today's money?

Phil: bucks in today's money?

Phil: Probably bucks.

Tom: Surely more than that.

Phil: Maybe

Tom: I think maybe

Phil: In Australian dollars?

Phil: Yeah, you're probably talking about bucks.

Tom: I mean, in US dollars.

Tom: This would have been what?

Tom: What's the year?

Phil: Would have been maybe ..

Phil: Well, the playstation came out in...

Phil: Metal Gear Solid came out in so I'm going to think it's about

Tom: Let's check this live on air.

Phil: Hang on.

Phil: would have been years ago.

Tom: Paid dollars, was it?

Phil: bucks, let's say, in

Tom: In

Tom: So, according to the Reserve Bank of Australia, I'm correct.

Tom: Let's just approximate...

Tom: Let's just assume that the US has had approximately the same sort of inflation over the last years.

Tom: dollars in is about dollars today.

Tom: So, I was bang on the money.

Phil: That is insane.

Phil: That's a lot of...

Phil: I get, you know, it's been years.

Phil: But still, that's crazy.

Phil: So, yeah.

Phil: So, what was your first Gran Turismo?

Tom: My first Gran Turismo was also the original Gran Turismo.

Phil: And what was your...

Phil: Now, I had a Mazda Miata or MX-at the time.

Phil: So, that was the car that I took from...

Phil: And it's one of the first cars I introduced you to in the series.

Phil: So, this was in the game.

Phil: So, this was fantastic, because I got to pimp that out until I couldn't anymore.

Phil: What was the car that you spent the most time with?

Tom: I think from the original Gran Turismo, my two favorite cars were the Mazda demio in the first series of license tests.

Tom: Something about it just being this box that you're doing racing, driving, training in is very, very engaging and enjoyable, and it captures the spirit of Gran Turismo perfectly.

Tom: And the other one was...

Phil: We should just mention, a demio is not commonly known to most people.

Phil: A demio is basically a four-door hatchback.

Phil: Yeah, and I remember the car.

Phil: I remember how starkly it shifted gears.

Tom: Yeah, well, in Australia, we call it a Mazda and I think that's the case in America as well.

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: So everyone knows what we're talking about.

Phil: So yeah, I remember that car vividly and how poorly it accelerated and changed gears.

Phil: It was a brick, but that was the spirit of Gran Turismo.

Tom: And it stopped so slowly as well, despite probably weighing about half a ton.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, that inertia is a powerful force.

Tom: But the other one, the other one was the the blue and white Corvette.

Phil: My other one that I graduated with and then took as far as I did the MX-was the Mitsubishi Lancer.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yellow, yellow Mitsubishi Lancer.

Tom: Just a normal one or an Evo?

Phil: Evo.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That one was fantastic.

Phil: And when I came to Australia and found out you could actually buy Lancers, cause I didn't release it in the US.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: It was like, Oh my God, this is incredible.

Phil: But yeah, yeah, fantastic.

Phil: Now, but your favorite Gran Turismo is

Tom: That's correct.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: And that's because of Snoop Dogg's Chrysler endorsement and song, right?

Tom: Of course.

Phil: That was released for the playstation

Phil: And I remember the first time I saw that it was in a game stop and it looked amazing.

Phil: And I went home with that that day.

Phil: But I did spend a lot of time with it, but nowhere near the amount of time I did with and

Tom: Gran Turismo and still look very impressive.

Tom: If you look up the game being emulated at high resolutions, it looks excellent.

Phil: And also, while we're talking about Gran Turismo memories, I do remember I had the Blem cast for Dreamcast.

Phil: So this was basically a boot disk you could put in your Dreamcast, because the Dreamcast was way more powerful than a playstation of course.

Phil: Yeah, you basically put this boot disk in your Dreamcast.

Phil: That would let you then put in the disk for Gran Turismo, or Gran Turismo I can't remember.

Phil: And it would upscale the graphics to...

Phil: It was basically an emulator, I guess, somehow.

Phil: I don't know, maybe not even an emulator.

Phil: I didn't know how to describe it.

Phil: But it would upscale the graphics so that it looked like a Dreamcast game.

Phil: And I remember games will never look better than this.

Phil: This is amazing, this is incredible, which is what you say about driving games.

Phil: If there was anything tempting you to buy a playstation would it be Gran Turismo?

Tom: Probably.

Tom: That would definitely be one of the things.

Tom: Maybe even the only thing.

Phil: As a part of the year anniversary of playstation, their best gift has been the release of their mascot platformer Astrobot, which is getting universal critical acclaim across the board.

Phil: Apparently, it makes fantastic use of the haptic controller with the playstation and it's just a, you know, a quote Nintendo level quality platformer.

Phil: And, you know, it's great for them to be, you know, have that sort of success with that.

Phil: I forget the name of the studio that brought that out, but have you managed to see any pictures of it?

Phil: Apparently, it's a beautiful looking game.

Tom: Astro Bot, I think, in its early hype cycle, I did.

Phil: Yeah, so Astro Bot obviously started as a demo for the playstation camera.

Phil: And then, of course, it was a demo for VR.

Tom: I think it's the camera demo that I've seen.

Phil: Yeah, and then it was the pack-in.

Phil: They also produced a small pack-in game for the playstation to really highlight the features of the playstation

Phil: But now this is a full-blown platformer, a platformer level game.

Phil: I think it's about hours long, and it's getting perfect scores across the board, nines and tens, that sort of thing.

Phil: And then there is the Plight of the Concord, also known as Concord's Bad Fur Day.

Phil: These, this wordplay is, I wish I had thought of these.

Phil: We're usually pretty good with wordplay.

Phil: Coming up with our show title, so I'm gonna credit Plight of the Concord to GameScoop, IGN's GameScoop podcast, and Concord's Bad Fur Day to the Jeff Gershman podcast.

Phil: I think both of those were great.

Phil: But after just two weeks, Sony's live service hero shooter Concord was taken offline, which won't be news to anyone.

Phil: And they had refunds returned to all.

Tom: I think the existence of it might actually be news to a lot of people.

Phil: Well, yes, it was certainly poorly marketed.

Phil: And there's a lot of people, even before it was canceled, saying there's nothing wrong with this game.

Phil: This is a good game.

Phil: It was being sold for $as an online shooter.

Phil: And it's not really a hero shooter in the, you know, in the sense of the games that we talked about last week.

Phil: But it was a competent shooter.

Phil: I mean, critically, it was getting sevens out of which is a good score.

Phil: I mean, that is a really good, you know, seven out of it sounds bad.

Phil: Like that's a, that's a solid game.

Phil: And people were enjoying it.

Phil: And the whole thing was, it was, it's a live service game that you could buy for $with no ups and extras.

Phil: They weren't exploiting you with loot boxes and skins and hats and all this other stuff that traditional gamers have said, oh, just, just let me buy the game and play the goddamn game.

Phil: But the backlash against the game was, well, why am I paying for this when there's so many other games that are free to play?

Phil: Just give me a game that's free to play.

Phil: So that's pretty much what sunk it so far as I can tell.

Phil: And it's, it's certainly, it's certainly unprecedented in terms of a triple A game that was many years in development, many hundreds of millions of dollars of, of development money for Sony to pull the plug on it.

Phil: And the fact that they refunded the money makes me think that they're not going to retool this thing.

Phil: They're just, that's it, it's done, it's finished.

Tom: It's, it's a bizarre situation.

Tom: I don't really see the need for them to remove it in that way.

Phil: There's a couple of theories, and one is that Warner Brothers will bring a movie to theater to have it flop so that they can then claim it as a tax deduction.

Phil: So basically, they can say, hey, well, look, this was a commercial failure.

Phil: We put in million dollars.

Phil: So now we're going to claim that as a loss against our profits to reduce our revenue.

Phil: So we're paying for, you know, our revenue is reduced by million dollars so that we pay less tax.

Phil: I don't know that that, I mean, that sounds credible because in any other, in any other world, a company like Sony would go, oh, this game got seven out of ten, guys.

Phil: All we got to do is like either re-release it as a free to play and tweak it.

Phil: You look at other games that suffered this fate, like Final Fantasy was a game, that's their online game that they had attuned to the Chinese market, which of course then the rest of the world just threw up on.

Phil: They're like, this might be good for China, but it's not good for Japan, it's not good for the West.

Phil: They've completely, they completely turned it around and made it a success.

Phil: Cyberpunk, playstation, took it off their store because it wouldn't work and was breaking playstations.

Phil: That's probably one of the closest things to this.

Phil: No Man's Sky, another game that was pilloried at launch that was able to turn it around.

Phil: Fortnite, Fortnite was a joke.

Phil: It was literally a joke for four years where people were like, is this a real game or what is this, what's going on with it?

Phil: And obviously turned around to be the most successful live service game in history.

Phil: So, as you said, it's perplexing as to why Sony did this.

Phil: If in fact, it wasn't just to basically go, all right, we're just sending this out to die.

Phil: We'll do it the week before we release a game that we know is going to get tens out of tens.

Phil: We'll do it a week before we know we're going to be announcing the playstation

Phil: People will move on the playstation Pro.

Tom: It's still bizarre, though.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Do you have a theory of your own?

Phil: In terms of historical precedent, I'd say if you looked at the Dreamcast being killed by Sega within two years of its release, that's probably the closest disaster.

Phil: Because that took Sega out of the hardware manufacturing business.

Phil: But if you look at the library of the Dreamcast, it's solid.

Phil: I think I've got over games for it.

Phil: Like it had software support.

Phil: So I don't think people see it as a disaster.

Phil: My theory is that there was at one point a CEO in charge of playstation that said, we're going to have live servers.

Phil: We have live service games in development.

Phil: And he's since gone.

Phil: He's gone and now Helmut Helmetson is in charge of the company.

Phil: So you've got, it's sort of the same thing that happened with the playstation virtual reality too.

Phil: It's kind of like, well, that the old regime thought this was a good idea.

Phil: We don't think this is a good idea.

Tom: A way for Mr.

Tom: Helmetson to stamp his mark on Sony.

Phil: I think it's his way of saying, this isn't going to work.

Phil: So we may as well release the bloody thing.

Phil: We'll take the loss.

Phil: Sony has some experience with this, keeping in mind that they are a motion picture studio.

Phil: We'll put this dog out there.

Phil: It'll be out there and we'll pull it back.

Phil: And if there's enough interest, then we can probably re-release it as a free-for-play game.

Phil: Now, can you imagine if they released this in eight months as a free-to-play game?

Phil: If they release this in a lull in the release cycle as a free-to-play game, after tweaking it, taking on the critical, the criticism that people gave, because there was a few things they could have done to fix it, like everyone would go on, or me and you would go and play it just to see what this train wreck was all about, right?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Like if it's free to play, I will go and visit the scene of the crime if it's going to be free.

Phil: So that's still an option for them.

Phil: But I think just like with the playstation VR, there's been a change of direction, leadership stepping away from it.

Phil: I think they would look at the tax benefits of abandoning it, and I think that's all there is to it, sadly.

Tom: Another victim of Mr.

Tom: Helmut Helmetson.

Phil: But, you know, unfortunately for Sony, that wasn't the worst of...

Phil: You know, they said, hey, man, we'll give out this bad news, and we'll release this game that's going to get tens, and then we're going to release the playstation Pro, and then people will be flocking, people will be getting a second job, just so they can get the playstation Pro.

Phil: So how did that go?

Tom: I think the big news there is the price, isn't it?

Phil: It is, yes.

Phil: So you can basically pick up a playstation now for half of what the playstation Pro is going to be selling at $US.

Phil: It has no disc.

Phil: You have to pay $more for a Blu-ray drive, if you want a disc.

Phil: It has been announced for Australia.

Phil: You can go to JB Hi-Fi and pre-order one right now, with no disc, for $which is $US for our US listeners.

Phil: But surely, what are you getting for this?

Phil: There's basically three things they're talking about.

Phil: You'll get better ray tracing.

Phil: Ray tracing, what's your take on ray tracing?

Tom: I'm still a fan of it.

Phil: Yeah, I think most people are.

Phil: And better ray tracing, that's good.

Phil: Better DLSS, so that's basically where they can automatically upscale graphics of older games through computational power.

Phil: Now, they call DLSS something different on playstation, but that's basically the second thing.

Tom: I find it interesting that better DLSS is something people are paying more money for when the whole point of it is for you to be able to squeeze more performance out of hardware.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: DLSS should be something that...

Tom: It should improve with patches.

Phil: Yeah, you shouldn't be talking about it.

Phil: You know, like if you're doing it on a sly, just do it on the sly and let everyone think that you've got a more powerful CPU.

Phil: And you know, and then the third thing is the CPU is % faster than the playstation which I think is significant.

Tom: It is, but what are you going to use it for?

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: Comes with a terabyte SSD drive, which by most people's accounts is too small, with most games being gig or gig.

Tom: Or

Phil: Yeah, I thought a CPU going up by %, like that's almost a new console range to me.

Phil: I thought that was pretty considerable, but not not for the money.

Tom: No.

Tom: And again, what's the CPU going to be used for?

Tom: Other than DLSS.

Phil: DLSS and better rate tracing.

Tom: Rate tracing would be the video card.

Phil: I don't want to get into that.

Phil: I don't know enough about their console hardware in terms of what they're using for video cards and things like that.

Phil: But in any case, it's been a bad, it's been a rough couple of weeks for Sony, other than the release of AstroBite.

Tom: Have you looked at the footage they've released of games on PSPro?

Phil: I have, and I couldn't tell the difference.

Tom: It's not very impressive at all.

Phil: It's not impressive at all.

Phil: The same, the video wasn't impressive to start with, because it was like two tiny screens in the middle of a YouTube screen that I'm watching in p.

Phil: So I don't know what that's about.

Phil: I could not tell the difference, and I couldn't care less.

Tom: They showed The Last of Us, or The Last of Us Light game playing, and they said on the original PSit runs at frames per second, and on the PSPro, it runs at frames per second.

Tom: And judging by the graphics, I was simply left wondering why it wasn't running at frames per second on the original PS

Tom: So I don't think that's a very good advertisement.

Phil: No, it's a good point.

Phil: And the one thing I did notice when they were showing Gran Turismo was the reflection of the cars in real time.

Phil: That's the ray tracing part of it.

Phil: The reflection of the cars on the other cars as they passed.

Phil: That was pretty impressive.

Phil: And I'm sure it's immersive when you're watching it on your inch TV.

Phil: But yeah, I don't, if I was in the market, let's just say, look, I found, I found, let's just say I found bucks on the street tomorrow.

Phil: And I go, oh yeah, I'll go buy a playstation

Phil: I'd probably just buy a playstation because I know I've got to buy a controller for bucks as well.

Phil: And then you got to get the games and all the rest of it.

Phil: Yeah, it's not a good value proposition, let's say that.

Phil: Anything else on Sony before we go to the next big story?

Tom: I think that about covers it.

Tom: So if we just, for the record, Mr.

Tom: Helmut Helmetson has moved away from projects such as innovative VR and games that don't feature a plethora of in-app purchases, in-game purchases to a $PSPro.

Phil: I was just reflecting this afternoon, given how Microsoft is handling things, given how Sony is handling things, if it weren't for the indie scene and PC, I'd be seriously worried about the direction of where video games are going and their viability into the future, because Sony and Microsoft are really balling this up big time.

Phil: And I'm not a fanboy.

Phil: Like Nintendo does its own thing, so they do things that are unique enough that I can kind of treat them like an indie.

Phil: But I like blockbuster games, like I love Call of Duty and stuff like that, as much as anyone.

Phil: But you just see this and it's like, you guys are just making it harder and harder for people who want easier and easier.

Phil: People want to play, look at people that people want to listen to Spotify.

Phil: They don't want to own music, right?

Phil: They don't want to have quality.

Phil: They just want to have accessibility and ease.

Tom: Probably the whole point of consoles as opposed to PC.

Phil: Consoles are all about plug it in, turn it on, put the disc in, play again.

Phil: It's the closest thing to an arcade experience you can have.

Phil: And again, not to sound like a PC person or anything, but I turn on my gaming PC on my TV, it boots faster than a console.

Phil: And my time from boot to play is faster than any console.

Phil: It's basically the same as when I had a Dreamcast and it had to load up the disc.

Phil: It's not as fast as a cartridge-based game, but it's still super fast.

Phil: Like I'm playing a game within a minute of turning on my PC.

Phil: Now, that's not the case for everyone, but I've got a dedicated PC hooked up to my TV.

Phil: It's working out really great.

Tom: Before we move on from Sony, I think we just need to do a little update on Black Wukong.

Tom: We theorized that the massive sales were all from the Chinese and the Chinese diaspora.

Tom: And I've been doing a little bit of research in this direction.

Tom: And I know quite a few people in China and in Hong Kong.

Tom: And anyone I know who plays games with access to a console that can play Black Wukong has been playing it.

Tom: Or someone I know has been playing it.

Tom: And a colleague of mine recently got a PS

Tom: And the only game he's played on it is Black Wukong.

Tom: And he is from China.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: So it's definitely something that culturally they're proud of.

Tom: I'd say so, yes.

Phil: In Australia, we don't have anything like that.

Phil: Like, we don't have anything, I don't think, that we could say, oh, this is our national story, and they brought it to a AAA video game.

Tom: What's the poet, the Snowy River Man, what's he called?

Phil: Lawson, Henry Lawson.

Tom: Maybe him, maybe Waltzing Matilda?

Phil: Yeah, but that's just a poem.

Phil: It's just a song, it's just a poem.

Phil: I don't think you could base a video game on a homeless guy who steals a sheep and then when he's caught, commits suicide by drowning himself in a small dam.

Tom: I think you probably could.

Phil: Which is Waltzing Matilda.

Tom: I think you could base a pretty good game on that.

Phil: Yeah, I think Suda could.

Tom: All the people who made Dear Esther.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we'll be talking about...

Tom: Speaking of which, he asked me for a PSrecommendation.

Phil: Who did?

Phil: Oh, okay, yeah.

Tom: This guy who was playing Black Wukong.

Phil: Yeah, Gran Turismo, man.

Tom: Yeah, no, here was my strategy.

Tom: He's playing Black Wukong.

Phil: I got a strategy.

Phil: Okay, you tell me your strategy.

Tom: I went in a totally different direction.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Unrecommended Dear Esther.

Phil: Good, because what I was going to recommend was you should recommend the worst and most expensive games possible so that he eventually gets sick of it.

Phil: And then you can buy the playstation from him used.

Phil: So you've done a good thing.

Tom: I think I might be going in that direction already.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: We didn't tease the games.

Phil: We're going to be talking about some hot games this week.

Phil: Still Wakes the Deep, which is a game from the people that made Dear Esther.

Phil: We're going to be talking about that.

Phil: You've been playing that.

Phil: I have indeed.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It's on Game Pass, so everyone can play it right now.

Phil: I'm going to be finished A Plague Tale Innocence from Asobo, my favorite developer right now.

Phil: Disco Elysium, you've been playing.

Phil: So yeah, we've got some hot games coming up.

Phil: But before we get that, we'll go to episode news story number two.

Phil: Gearbox's Randy Pitchford compares his company to the Beatles.

Phil: And credit for this story goes to Eurogamer, who congratulations Eurogamer.

Phil: They're celebrating their th anniversary this week.

Phil: Gearbox founder Randy Pitchford has defended recent flops, such as the Borderlands film and its Risk of Rain DLC, by comparing his company to one of the most highly regarded bands of all time, the Beatles, which comically for me brings to mind when John Lennon of the Beatles compared his band to Jesus, stating that even Jesus could only bring salvation to % of the world's population.

Phil: Randy said, I wish everything could be a hit, but that's not how it works.

Phil: He wrote in an exchange on social media platform X, the greatest musical act of all time, the Beatles had a % hit rate.

Phil: So again, why would you compare yourself to the Beatles when the Beatles themselves compared themselves to Jesus and it basically killed their sales?

Phil: People were burning their records in America because they had, you know, John Lennon had compared himself to Jesus.

Phil: So ergo, I guess, Randy pitchers.

Tom: So we're gonna have Beatles fans burning copies of Gearbox games?

Tom: Is that what you're saying?

Phil: Well, Christians or Christians, because if Gearbox is like the Beatles and the Beatles compared themselves to Jesus sacrilegiously, then basically Randy Pitchford is comparing himself to Jesus, who, you know, he did only, there's only % of the world's population is Christian.

Phil: I looked it up on Wikipedia.

Phil: So even Jesus didn't have a good hits rate.

Phil: Now, Randy Pitchford is saying the Beatles had a % hit rate.

Phil: I did some independent research just as you did.

Phil: Thank you.

Phil: We're still gumshoes hitting the street during the hard work of journalism.

Tom: Hence why we're citing Eurogamer.

Phil: Well, yes, but now I'm, this is separate, right?

Phil: So a hit is a song that is in the top

Phil: So between and the Beatles released UK singles.

Phil: They had of them were number ones.

Phil: Three of them were number twos.

Phil: One of them was number four and one was number which means they had % hit rate.

Phil: They released albums.

Phil: of them were number one.

Phil: One of them was number three, which again is a hit rate of %.

Tom: I was very confused by the claim that the Beatles had only a % hit rate.

Phil: They had a % hit rate, which is why they're the Beatles.

Tom: If there's one thing going for the Beatles, it's their commercial success.

Tom: How could a band that only had a % hit rate be the most successful band of all time?

Tom: That didn't make sense to me.

Phil: Just so you know.

Tom: Did Eurogamer go to the efforts that you did to fact check this statement?

Phil: No, they didn't.

Phil: They're not real journalists.

Phil: So, now, do you, I don't know the answer, but do you want to speculate which one of their singles only got to number ?

Tom: I've no idea.

Tom: My knowledge of the Beatles is that they are commercially successful, as opposed to what Beatles songs exist.

Tom: There's something about a walrus, I think.

Phil: I reckon number was probably Eleanor Rigby, but who knows?

Phil: Actually, I think that was probably number one.

Phil: But here's the other thing.

Phil: He's comparing it.

Phil: He's bringing up a cultural reference that is actually, what,

Phil: That's like years ago, right?

Phil: It is.

Phil: It's years ago.

Phil: This is like someone bringing up, I don't know, someone from the s when they're talking about the s, you know, like, you know, like Cole Porter, he had a % hit rate, you know?

Phil: We're just like Cole Porter.

Phil: Anyway, enough of that.

Phil: That was silliness.

Phil: Finally, it's not really a news story before we go into what we've been playing.

Phil: But I did want to note that a game that me and you both enjoyed, Warhammer K Space Marine, has a sequel that we talked about last episode.

Phil: It's now released and its credit for the story is everywhere.

Phil: It's getting broad praise as a great game in its own right.

Phil: And it's getting praise for its satisfying shooting and melee and it's appealing to everyone, not just Warhammer K enthusiast.

Tom: I think the review you're quoting here is quite interesting because in the bad listing, one of the issues with the game is it apparently has far from the deepest storytelling, the extended K universe.

Tom: Now, I wouldn't call the storytelling deep in the original Space Marine, but it was certainly, arguably the highlight of the game.

Tom: So I wonder if maybe it's a little disappointing from that perspective.

Phil: Yeah, perhaps.

Phil: I mean, Warhammer can be credited.

Phil: I mean, they invented the word Space Marine, which went on to influence Halo and the Aliens franchise among many others.

Phil: But my memories of, I've pulled out a copy of Space Marine.

Phil: I haven't, it's a playstation game.

Phil: I haven't played it yet.

Phil: But my memory of it was that the Malay was so satisfying.

Phil: Is that is what I went to most of the time.

Phil: Do you have any memories of it at all?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: The Malay was, I think the shooting was good too though.

Tom: Everything came together to be pretty satisfying.

Phil: Game itself was over the top in terms of just everything.

Phil: It was a bombastic game.

Phil: It was fun.

Phil: It was, yeah, a really fun game.

Phil: We talked about it in episode

Phil: We both played it and yeah, we talked about it in episode and mostly.

Phil: So yeah, maybe I'll put that up as a bonus.

Phil: Would you agree I could put that up as a bonus episode in about maybe next week in between our recordings?

Tom: Go ahead.

Phil: But yeah, it's good to see.

Phil: It's come from a different developer, but it's yeah, I think it's really good to see.

Phil: It's still like a $game on Steam.

Phil: So I'm going to wait for a sale because I've just got other games I can be playing.

Phil: So do you want to talk about what you've been playing and why it's important?

Tom: Well, I started playing Still Wakes the Deep, which as you said is developed by the Chinese room who made Dear Esther among other things.

Tom: And so far, I think the highlight is the setting.

Tom: It takes place on a Scottish oil rig.

Tom: And you're surrounded by people with...

Tom: It's also I think set probably in the s, I would say, judging by the fashions involved.

Phil: Yep, it's set in December

Tom: Oh, there we go.

Tom: So mid s, close enough.

Phil: Yep, for sure.

Tom: But the setting lives up to the concept.

Tom: You're surrounded by amusing Scottish characters with very thick accents.

Tom: The oil rig so far I think feels very stylized, particularly as it begins to change as the story of the game begins to develop.

Tom: But it's still a very engrossing setting.

Tom: It is a horror game, and it is not a walking simulator like Dear Esther is.

Tom: Basically, you're drilling in off the Scottish coast, and some sort of Cthulhu-like horror is unleashed as a result of this, which destroys the oil rig and takes over various people.

Tom: So you are trying to find a way off it and to save whoever you can on the oil rig.

Tom: And the game play is basically a mixture of stealth and platforming.

Tom: So there's a lot of yellow surfaces here and there, so you know where to jump.

Tom: But it works pretty well for the most part.

Tom: The stealth so far, I'm yet to work out whether it is real or bullshit, because I tried my best to be discovered by the person who was chasing me, and did not succeed in that endeavour.

Tom: So it might be like the burning car in Heavy Rain, where you can't actually be killed, but you can certainly die in the platforming segments.

Phil: Yeah, so it's a psychological horror.

Phil: I mean, what a great setting, an oil rig.

Phil: The whole, you know, you're drilling into deep, deep into the earth.

Phil: So obviously out in the out in the sea off of Scotland, the Northern Sea there, that, you know, the fact that you're awakening this mystical monster is a, is a delicious, delicious plot.

Phil: And obviously being an oil rig, like in Aliens, you're in a confined space, which is also good for development, but also extra creepy because there's nowhere to run.

Phil: So I think that's fantastic.

Phil: I saw this, this was advertised in Retro Gamer.

Phil: If it wasn't a back cover, it was probably the first major full page ad when you opened it.

Phil: And they, this basically said, didn't mention the name of the game.

Phil: It was basically a job advertisement to come and work on a oil rig.

Phil: And it features a picture that I've seen from the game.

Phil: And I saw it and I was like, okay, this is obviously some sort of, you know, a game and they want you to go to the website and find out about the game.

Phil: But they just, in the ad itself, it's just, it just looks like an ad, like come and work at this oil rig, which I don't, it's clever, but I don't think that's the most effective form of advertising.

Tom: Well, we're talking about it.

Tom: So maybe it's effective advertising in a second hand sense.

Phil: So how long is the game at me?

Phil: How far into it are you?

Tom: I'm still nearish the beginning of it.

Tom: I would think it's probably going to be about maybe somewhere in the realm of around five hours, give or take.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, it's a $game.

Phil: It's obviously free on and it's available on playstation, Xbox and PC.

Phil: So it's a $game on playstation and PC right now.

Phil: But you can obviously play it for free on Game Pass on.

Phil: Well, I guess that's on PC really, isn't it?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: That's how I'm playing.

Phil: The How Long the Beat says it's about four and a half hours in length.

Phil: And a completionist run will do six and a half hours.

Tom: So $an hour, essentially.

Phil: Yeah, which is basically like an arcade game back in the day.

Phil: If you look up the show notes that I've put up there, I've got a comparison of the credits between Dear Esther and Still Wakes the Deep.

Phil: Did you see that?

Tom: Yes, I did.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So like it's from the developer, the Chinese room.

Phil: But when you look at the big credits on Dear Esther and the big credits on Shadow of the Deep, there's really only one name there that matches up.

Tom: Well, Dan Pinchbeck was co-director on Still Wakes the Deep, wasn't he?

Phil: Yes, definitely.

Phil: Yeah, he was co-director.

Phil: And notably, he was the writer of both.

Phil: And do you see any similarities between the two?

Tom: Without a doubt, I think just the way it is constructed is similar to Dear Esther, and there's a very strong focus on the writing as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: And even though events unfold quite quickly, they unfold with a lot of detail as it goes along.

Tom: So things happen quickly, but at the same time with a lot of depth to them.

Tom: So compared to many games, you're getting more out of a short period of time.

Tom: So it actually feels longer in a sense, but in a good way, which I think was the case in Dear Esther, which was probably to its detriment for a lot of people.

Tom: But Dear Esther is only an hour long, but there is so much detail both aesthetically and in terms of writing within that hour that in a way it feels like a much longer experience.

Phil: Is there a morose narrator in this game?

Tom: No, there isn't.

Phil: Oh, well, that's a shame.

Phil: You know, honestly, I was surprised that the composer wasn't brought over from Dear Esther, but a lot of time has passed.

Phil: I mean, you know, that composer could have moved on and had great success in, you know, other things.

Phil: You know, people, you know, they're not stuck in time.

Phil: And Dear Esther was certainly, you know, a smaller type project.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Anything else on Still Wakes Are Deep for now?

Tom: At this stage, I think that probably covers it.

Tom: One other thing actually I would add, which I'm hoping becomes a more important mechanic.

Tom: If you press, I think it's the right mouse button, you look back over your shoulder, which in a horror game, I think is a brilliant mechanic.

Tom: But as I said, thus far, I've failed to be killed by the Cthulhu horrors lurking in the deep.

Phil: How's the audio direction of the game?

Tom: Very good.

Phil: So let's go on to a game I've been playing.

Phil: Now I've got to roll your mind back to when A Plague Tale Innocence came out.

Phil: You perhaps played it close to launch, or did you play it more recently than that?

Tom: I believe I reviewed it.

Tom: So I played it pre-launch then at launch.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, A Plague Tale Innocence is made by Asobo, who has since gone on to do Microsoft's Flight Simulator, which is certainly critically acclaimed.

Phil: And they've also done a sequel to it, which I'm very interested in picking up.

Phil: I'll probably pick it up, but I'm a little bit-

Tom: Sequel is not as good as the original, but it is worth playing.

Phil: Yeah, I'm a little bit reluctant to go into it after having played or hours of this one, you know, back to back.

Phil: But I've got to say that I did start playing at other games yesterday after beating this one.

Phil: And I'm just not feeling it.

Phil: I've been spoiled because I've gone from Indica to other games to, thank goodness you're here, to A Plague Tale.

Phil: Not to mention, not to mention Teardown.

Phil: And now I'm sort of like, you know, what am I doing?

Tom: A good way to follow it up, except you don't have games past, I think would be still Wakes the Deep.

Phil: And that's not going to happen.

Phil: I look at Disco Elysium which you're going to be talking about as well.

Phil: But yeah, you reviewed this in episode which I might go ahead and include as a bonus episode after this, or something like that at some point, just to see what your impressions were.

Phil: But yeah, Sobo is like my favorite developer.

Phil: They're from France.

Phil: They've done a lot of amazing games and have a diversity, and also been able to release games on a quick cadence.

Phil: This game is an action adventure stealth game, is how I'd describe it.

Phil: And it's available on everything, including Switch, which is usually the thing that it's not on.

Phil: So basically, this has been, and even I described this as a B game.

Phil: But in thinking about it, the only thing that's quote B level about it is the cinematics.

Phil: The gameplay, I would say, is most similar to the recent Tomb Raider games.

Phil: And not just because you play as a female protagonist, but there is a light degree of crafting that goes on.

Phil: The Tomb Raider games rely on you using a bow and arrow.

Phil: This relies on you playing with a sling.

Phil: As it's set in mid th century France, there's no guns involved, which is a delightful change of pace.

Phil: And basically, you're fighting against the plague.

Phil: And in this telling of history, the French inquisition has unleashed a plague of rats to bring salvation and cleansing to Europe, in this case, in France.

Phil: And you play as a princess.

Phil: Is princess overselling it?

Tom: I think so.

Tom: A member of the aristocracy.

Phil: Yeah, a member of the aristocracy.

Phil: So basically, she loses, her family loses their, you know, their castle and all the rest of it.

Phil: She's been brought up in a place of privilege, but she's also, you know, down to earth because the game opens with her hunting with one of her servants.

Phil: And she's a competent hunter and a bit of a Tom boy is what we would have used to have said.

Tom: I think hunting would mean you're not down to earth.

Phil: Well, she's hunting, they're hunting for food.

Phil: I mean, this is the mid th century.

Phil: She's not like hunting for sport, though she was enjoying it as sport, but still though, it was still.

Tom: I think if you're hunting in a forest setting in the th century, either a member of the land of gentry, if you're not working for them, or you're a poacher, and she's definitely not a poacher.

Phil: No, that's true.

Phil: Her mother is taking care of her younger brother who she never gets to see.

Phil: And her younger brother has some sort of affliction.

Phil: So that's how the setup for the game.

Phil: So of course, they lose all of that.

Phil: And then she and her younger brother then have to go out and go on this thing.

Phil: So basically it's, oh, we'll go to the church, and then we'll go to the university, and then we'll go to here, and we'll go to there.

Phil: Because the young one is afflicted with a disease, and they're trying to cure him.

Phil: And along the way, you build up a band of about five different people.

Phil: One of them's a tank type creature who's very strong.

Phil: There's a couple of thieves, and there's a guy who's able to create potions and things like that.

Phil: And yeah, I found that the gameplay itself was was triple A, if you want to call it that.

Phil: There was absolutely no compromise in the gameplay.

Phil: As I brought up in the last episode, it is a stealth game, and I was playing it on the default difficulty.

Phil: I didn't see a way to turn it up or down.

Phil: And the detection cones for the guards was almost just not really a cone, but more of a rectangle directly in front of their head.

Phil: But even so, the game presented enough of a challenge that it was enjoyable.

Phil: Yeah, I really thoroughly enjoyed this game, and I thought it was a lot of fun.

Phil: You at some points, you do get to play as the younger brother, which I think is the only thing that sort of brings it down, because the animation for him made it look like he had a soiled diaper, the way he walked.

Phil: It didn't look like a real human being.

Phil: He sort of walked more like a chimp, which took me out of the game a little bit.

Phil: But otherwise, I found the story to be fun, and it certainly ramps up in the last five chapters of the game, to the point where you're actively interested in what's going to happen between all the different characters.

Phil: And it's a good mix of, like in Tomb Raider, there's environmental puzzles that need to be solved.

Phil: There's stealth.

Phil: There's just good old direct combat.

Phil: Yeah, it's a it's a rollicking game.

Phil: It's it's it's fun.

Phil: I really thoroughly enjoyed it by the time I was done with it.

Phil: The only time where you are the cinematics are jarring because they they're really poor in terms of their resolution and animation.

Phil: But, you know, that that's sort of nitpicking.

Phil: I really don't I didn't think that that held back the game at all.

Tom: And the story, the story telling is nonetheless excellent, even if the animation is a little bit janky.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: You look past things like that.

Phil: And the characters were quite good as well.

Phil: I'm talking about the character models, but I thought the characters were quite good and true.

Tom: Definitely.

Phil: Going with the game under ethos of enjoying, you know, seeking out things that are different.

Phil: Game, first of all, the game set in the mid th century, in Europe, right?

Phil: That is immediately for most commercial studios are no no.

Phil: Number two, it's got a female protagonist, which in these days, Post Horizon is, you know, more commercially palpable.

Phil: But certainly in this still would have been something that's like, okay, what?

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And you've got little boys, like what is this?

Phil: They all have thick accents for an American ear.

Phil: They have thick accents and that's, I'm not putting down our American friends.

Phil: But you know, when you're marketing a game to a diverse population, having a thick French accent for all of your characters could be a bit of a barrier commercially.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And certainly there's the other thing, it's really gross.

Phil: This game has a lot of rats.

Phil: And I thought that that was technically dynamic as well.

Phil: Just the way that they used the rats in the game.

Phil: But like I wasn't creeped out by it.

Phil: But also, you know, like, you know, that could be a barrier of entry to some people.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Did you ever, did you ever take a moment to stand still and watch the rats?

Phil: All the time.

Tom: Because the parthing of them is absolutely hilarious to watch.

Phil: Oh, in a Virtua Tennis type of way, you know, especially when you're setting up the lamp, the floodlights to keep them out of an area, but also using the tool that draws them to an area.

Phil: Yeah, that's what you're talking about, right?

Tom: And also the animation as well.

Phil: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: But I'm not, that's that's the only jank to the game, but I'm not holding that against him because they're...

Tom: I think it's charming jank.

Tom: That was one of the things I enjoyed about it.

Phil: It is.

Phil: And, you know, talking about jank, the game never crashed.

Phil: I never had any problems with it whatsoever.

Phil: Of course, I'm playing it five years after it's been released.

Phil: It's been patched, you know, a whole bunch because it's been released on a bunch of different platforms.

Phil: But super competent game.

Phil: The thing that I enjoyed the most about it was that it has a weapons wheel.

Phil: And the rate at which they unlock the weapons wheel, the weapons in the wheel, was just right.

Phil: Like if they had given you everything at once, it would have been overwhelming.

Phil: And the rate at which they unlocked the new tools and skills that they gave you, I thought was absolutely perfect and kept me captivated throughout the entirety of the game.

Phil: So I forget what you gave this game when you played it.

Phil: But, you know, I'm prepared to give it a score.

Tom: What's your score?

Phil: I would give this game a out of

Tom: High praise.

Tom: I think that's fair.

Tom: I doubt I gave it a out of if I gave it a score.

Phil: Yeah, you would have given it a score and we'll have to...

Tom: Before we move on from play-tel, I gotta ask you what you thought of the Catholic Church's villains in the game.

Phil: Right, well, the Catholic Church was not the villain.

Phil: Now, we've recently played Indica and there was a lot of, you know, comparable things in Indica and this game.

Phil: And I've gotta thank you so much for recommending Indica to me.

Phil: It's just one of those games that's gonna stick in my head for a long time.

Phil: I don't know about you.

Tom: That'll be my next PSrecommendation.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, very good.

Phil: In this one, though, the Catholic Church is actually the hero because the Grand Inquisitor is the baddie.

Phil: And at one point, someone that...

Phil: the Pope sends an envoy to the Grand Inquisitor to say, this wasn't sanctioned, knock this off.

Phil: This is unholy.

Phil: Stop it.

Phil: You know?

Phil: So I think in this one, the Catholic Church has actually got to win.

Tom: Maybe.

Tom: I think they're in a morally gray area.

Phil: They told the guy it wasn't sanctioned and to knock it off.

Phil: There's no moral ambiguity whatsoever.

Phil: I got some Resident Evil vibes off of the dude.

Phil: Definitely, right?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: And Emperor Palpatine.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That's the guy from Star Wars, right?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: All right.

Phil: This is going to go on favor.

Phil: So let's talk about the next game that you've been playing, which is Disco Elysium, developed by a company that was developed by an Estonian novelist.

Phil: The name of the company is Z A slash U M, Z A slash U M, which sounds like a company name that an Estonian novelist would come up with.

Tom: I think it's a programming reference or something.

Phil: It was released also in

Phil: So what prompted you to start playing this very critically acclaimed game from five years ago?

Tom: I've always wanted to play it, and I wanted something interesting to play after Baldur's Gate that wasn't necessarily a huge change of pace.

Tom: So I thought, what better way to follow up what many people claim is the greatest Western RPG of all time with another game.

Tom: Probably not anywhere near as many people claim to be the greatest Western RPG of all time, but certainly a few people do.

Tom: Actually, probably no, come to think of it.

Tom: I don't think I've seen anyone call it the greatest RPG of all time, but I have seen a lot of people say it's the greatest modern RPG of all time.

Tom: And I think I think that tells you what the difference between the audience of Baldur's Gate and Disco Elysium.

Phil: Yeah, and just ZA slash UM is a British company or a UK company, even though it's founded by a novelist, which...

Tom: I don't think so.

Tom: I think it may have been bought out by a British company.

Phil: Yeah, there was a big lawsuit from...

Tom: And the author has been kicked out of it and lost all of his...

Phil: That's right.

Tom: Disco Elysium related IP.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Now, when I saw the screen...

Phil: When this game came out, it was getting broadly praised for its incredibly divergent, sort of almost AI in the modern sense.

Phil: There's a thousand different ways this can unfold.

Phil: And I thought this was going to be like a photorealistic game, like LA.

Phil: Noire.

Phil: So I was really shocked when I saw screenshots of it, because it's like an isometric D game, like Baldur's Gate or Diablo.

Phil: And it's got...

Tom: Or Planescape Torment, which it is very clearly inspired by.

Phil: Yeah, and it's just, it's roughly drawn.

Phil: I was expecting a super realistic game for some reason, based on what people had described it over the years on podcasts.

Phil: So yeah, I was sort of put off by it, because people were talking about it as being a realistic game.

Phil: What would they, were they referring to the dialogue and the unfolding choices or?

Tom: I think they're referring to the narrative.

Phil: Okay, well, you're gonna have to, let's let you walk us through this then.

Tom: I think you've just said probably a more interesting thing than anything I've said could say about the game, without having played it, which is you said you compared it to AI, did you not?

Phil: Yes, yeah.

Tom: Whereas, I think the, not so long ago, you would have probably compared it, you would have called it postmodern, for the things you described.

Tom: And you know what I've never heard AI be compared to?

Tom: Not once.

Phil: Postmodernism.

Tom: Never.

Tom: But it's essentially the ultimate postmodernist mode of production.

Tom: Is it not?

Phil: Unpack that, please.

Tom: Well, you are literally feeding a series of images or voices, it could be anything, but you're inputting information into a machine, which collates all this information together and outputs something directly based on that information.

Phil: Yeah, right, okay, yeah.

Tom: That's essentially the entire basis of postmodernism, is it not?

Phil: It is, it is, right.

Tom: I mean, one could say that that is essentially the basis of all production in the first place, but the awareness that this is occurring is, I think, the basis of postmodernism.

Phil: Yes, that is true.

Tom: And the conscious use of that fact.

Tom: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: But I've never seen it compared to postmodernism, and I can only assume it is due to the massive marketing hype train that is AI.

Tom: And they would know if someone compared AI to postmodernism, it would not make AI look very good.

Phil: No, no, no.

Phil: Okay, so as you know, I work in industry.

Phil: If anyone who's trying to sell me anything can attach the letters AI to what it is they're selling, that's what they're doing, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: The people that cynically attach those letters to what they're doing, you know, a year ago would have just been called programming or software.

Phil: None of them would would have even heard the phrase postmodernism, because it's a completely separate subset of education, of experience and all the rest of it, which is why you've never heard that comparison.

Tom: What would you do if someone came to you and said, here's postmodernist software design?

Phil: I would say, how can I?

Phil: Please let me subscribe to your newsletter.

Phil: Go ahead.

Phil: Tell me more.

Tom: Tell me more.

Phil: Who are you?

Phil: And let's go to lunch.

Phil: If someone came, if someone in my work rose those two words together, postmodernism, I would be shocked and just, yeah, I'd probably like, okay, we need to call a timeout here.

Phil: What's happened?

Phil: Am I losing my mind?

Phil: So walk us first of all through the gameplay, please.

Tom: Well, the gameplay and here's, I think the closest thing to something interesting compared to your statement I could come up with is, this was I think maybe or maybe not a good choice to play after Baldur's Gate but it was definitely a good choice to play after Dear Esther because I've not seen anyone accuse Disco Elysium of not being a game.

Tom: Yet, if you look at what the gameplay of Disco Elysium is, it is not unlike Dear Esther.

Tom: The vast majority of the game consists of you going up to characters, talking to them, and the interaction is, okay, you can choose dialogue options, but you can choose whether to walk up to a triggering point in Dear Esther.

Tom: So, in the one sense, there's more interactivity, but in another sense, if you are a games need to have quote proper end quote gameplay sort of person, you should be criticizing this game, but I haven't seen any of those people criticize it for that reason, and I would imagine that the reason that they criticize Dear Esther is actually aesthetic and has nothing to do with the gameplay, because Disco Elysium, unlike Dear Esther, looks like a normal RPG, and aesthetically feels like a normal RPG.

Tom: And thematically, while it is a lot more complex and interesting than most normal RPGs, it is science fiction.

Tom: It's not literary.

Tom: It's certainly literary, but it is literary through the lens of science fiction, which I think is acceptable to the sort of gamer who would be raising those sorts of complaints.

Phil: Yeah, you said acceptable.

Phil: The word in my mind was accessible because if you turn this game on, it looks like a game.

Phil: I understand it.

Phil: I get it.

Phil: If you turn on a walking simulator when it's the first walking simulator you've ever seen, you're like, well, where's the gun?

Phil: Was this a first person walker?

Phil: You know, I understand first person.

Phil: Where's the gun?

Phil: And where's the thing to shoot?

Phil: Where's you turn this on, you're like, oh yeah, I key.

Phil: This is like a Western RPG.

Phil: I get it.

Phil: Isometric view, all the rest of it.

Tom: All of your comments are, I think, more cutting into the point on Disco Elysium the Mine again because one of the important points in the narrative is that you are a policeman who has lost his gun.

Tom: So there is a gun in the game, but you are not in possession of the game.

Phil: Of the gun.

Tom: Which is clearly an accidental reference to what we are talking about here.

Phil: Perhaps, yeah.

Phil: So now, the game is dialogue heavy.

Phil: And what is the main gameplay mechanic?

Tom: The vast majority of the game is dialogue.

Tom: And the gameplay mechanic is going through the dialogue.

Tom: The RPG element is that you've got four different sets of skills that you have.

Tom: Two of them are related to the functioning of your brain, and two of them are related to the functioning of your body.

Tom: And depending on what your skills are in those areas, they give you different dialogue options and increase your chances of successfully performing actions in dialogue, such as convincing if you have a good rhetorical skill, you might be able to convince someone on something that you would not have been able to convince them of if your rhetorical skill was lower.

Phil: So are you able to develop, like is there a skill tree where you can choose what you want to develop?

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And in addition to that, the other mechanic is you have what is called a thought cabinet, and thought cabinets you get through dialogue options for the most part, where one of them is, I've forgotten the name of it, but it's related to how much you use socialist dialogue options.

Tom: So if you use enough socialist dialogue options, you can develop a socialist related thought, which will then give you bonuses and debuffs within your base skills.

Tom: And additionally, the clothing that you find in the game, will also raise and lower your skills as well.

Tom: So for a lot of the game, I have actually, I've got probably accrued at least somewhere between to unused skill points because of the way I've been playing the game is, I'm constantly changing the clothes I'm wearing so that I don't have to raise my skills.

Phil: Why?

Phil: Why wouldn't you want to raise your skills?

Tom: Because there's another mechanic in it, which is if you fail a certain type of dice roll in the dialogue, to unlock it again, you have to raise the skill that it is based on.

Phil: Okay, yeah.

Tom: Which has been encouraging me, even though I haven't really needed them, hence the large number of leftover skills, it's been encouraging me to hoard skill points.

Phil: My five year old memories of people talking about this game was that they were most amazed about the divergent paths that the game would take.

Phil: And I could play the game, it could be completely different from how you played the game.

Phil: Is there any evidence of that in your playthrough?

Tom: Yes and no.

Tom: I think there's a lot of stuff that you can just miss altogether, potentially, if you're not doing the side things.

Tom: It feels like the narrative is going in a general direction, regardless of what you are doing in terms of the main story, though.

Tom: But that remains to be seen.

Tom: I would say I'm probably about halfway through the story.

Tom: And a friend of mine has been playing at the same time.

Tom: He's already finished it.

Tom: And he's had pretty similar experiences to me so far, but we play games somewhat similarly anyway.

Tom: So there's not much that I can conclude from that.

Phil: Do you know if the developer...

Phil: Well, there was the controversy.

Phil: So yeah, obviously the developer hasn't gone on to make more games.

Phil: It'd be nice to know if this novelist has done anything with this at all, if his books based on the series.

Phil: But I guess what you're saying is he lost everything, lost all the rights to Disco Elysium.

Tom: That's right.

Phil: Do you see the appeal of the game?

Phil: Is this a game that you'd recommend?

Phil: There was a lot of hype around this game when it came out.

Phil: I'm amazed.

Phil: I only didn't buy it because I thought it was going to be something that I couldn't play in my PC because the way people were talking about it as an ultra realistic branching path, divergent story rich game that I was like, oh, my PC is not going to be able to run that.

Phil: But yeah, so does it live up to that hype?

Tom: I think it surpasses the hype that it's received and it's so good, it might be my third playstation recommendation.

Phil: That good.

Phil: That good, wow.

Tom: I have a lot more to say about it, but I don't know if you want to wait until you've played it, if you're going to play it, or should I talk about more, talk about it more now?

Phil: I think if I would love, I would much prefer if you go ahead and finish the game, and then we can talk about it then and perhaps by then, I will dip my toe in it.

Phil: Yeah, it's still like a still pretty expensive game to pick up relative to other games on the on Steam, at least.

Phil: So, yeah, I haven't.

Tom: I think there are, there should be sales for it somewhat regularly.

Phil: Yeah, I believe it is.

Phil: And I've put it on my wishlist.

Phil: So when it comes up on sale, I'll grab it pretty quickly.

Phil: I think the annoying thing is, is that the Plague Tale sequel is on sale right now for bucks Australian.

Phil: So that's sitting there, tempting me while I look at my library and go, what can I play?

Phil: What can I play?

Phil: Hey, have you played Stacking?

Tom: No, I haven't.

Tom: I've always wanted to, but I've never actually played it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Honestly, I think I'm probably, I should, after playing the game that I've just played, I probably should play a game like Warhammer k or something like that as a palette cleanser.

Phil: Is there anything else you wish to say about a Plague Tale?

Tom: About a Plague Tale, no, but I am going to say just a couple of things before I move on from Disco Elysium.

Phil: Well, no, that's actually more interesting than your, your Plague Tale.

Phil: You did talk about it for minutes in episode

Phil: So I thought you might have something more to say.

Tom: That's why I don't have anything more to say about it.

Phil: You're done with it.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: But back to Disco Elysium, folks.

Tom: Well, why not, why not just move on to a Plague Tale ?

Tom: I think it will be fascinating to play them back to back because I played them with however many years between them in terms of when they were first released.

Phil: I gotta tell you, it was so satisfying to play a regular ass video game with a big boss at the end of it.

Tom: The final boss was really enjoyable.

Phil: It was.

Phil: It's a really good final boss.

Phil: And the whole set up of the white rats without spoilers, the whole set up of that when they had the foreboding of it earlier on, it's just, you know, it is a really good story.

Tom: Guess what is % off on Steam right now?

Phil: Uh, your mom?

Tom: No.

Tom: She's, I think, % off.

Phil: What is % off?

Tom: A Plague Tale Requiem.

Phil: Yeah, I know.

Phil: It's like bucks, right?

Tom: $

Phil: Oh, wow.

Phil: It's gone down.

Phil: See, the thing is Steam Fs with you because you're going to be seeing discounts that I'm not seeing.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: But I might actually have a key for it from Humble Bundle.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, check that out, man.

Phil: And yeah, yeah, I'd love because I saw the trailer for the sequel and I'm like, oh, the cinematics are like now AAA level, which, you know, is neither here or nor there for me.

Phil: But like it looked like a bloody good game.

Phil: So yeah, check if you check that out, that would be great.

Phil: But back to Disco Elysium.

Tom: There are just two things I want to say.

Tom: I won't go into too much detail, but the sense of humor in the game is consistently amusing and not just amusing, but revealing as well.

Tom: The humor manages to provide a lot of societal commentary in a brilliant way.

Tom: The setting is incredibly rich, that it's all very satirical.

Tom: And we were talking about AI, as you said, it is very much a very postmodern sort of game, but it's the post postmodernism that we've been moving in the direction of, where everything is very postmodernist in the sense that it, everything in, it is ironical and ridiculous and absurd and constantly referential and all over the place.

Tom: Yet, it's doing all of this in the service of authenticity.

Tom: So all the characters are all very authentic.

Tom: The world is very authentic, and I think the things it's trying to say are all very authentic as well.

Tom: Despite this veneer of irony and all over the place referential humor.

Tom: And it's, I think it's been interesting seeing this develop in art in general, but also in games, because it's gone through stages where there have been things like Dear Esther that have been purely authentic without any sort of irony whatsoever, despite having a very postmodernist as opposed to modernist structure.

Tom: And there have been things like Sebelle, which have been purely authentic without having an all over the place sort of postmodernist feel to it, yet not being modernist in the sense that it is, has a sort of very serious structure to it where a lot of effort has gone into it, which is not to say that effort didn't go into making the game, but it was not meant to be this supremely crafted demonstration of mastery of skill.

Tom: It was meant to be this sort of drafted journal entry sort of feeling to it.

Tom: And now we've come to the culmination of all of these sorts of styles.

Tom: And we're now seeing things like this in games, the Disco Elysium.

Tom: I think an example of this in film would be everything everywhere all of once.

Tom: So I think it's an interesting time in art at the moment.

Phil: I agree.

Tom: And I think a positive, I think it's an improvement.

Tom: I think art is moving in a potentially interesting and positive direction for the first time in a long time.

Phil: I completely agree.

Phil: Yeah, I completely agree.

Phil: Because when you look at other aspects of society, like politics, which is completely, you know, at a standstill and stagnant and dead.

Phil: If you look at other forms of entertainment, like movies and I'm not going to say music, I'm not going to write off music yet, but yeah, like there's a lot of stagnation and unoriginality.

Phil: And I think in the in the field of visual arts, it's a it's a wonderful and vibrant time.

Tom: I would include music in it, actually.

Tom: Yeah, because if you look at commercial music, I think you have interesting things like K-pop, which has in turn, I think, influenced Western pop music.

Tom: And even within Western pop music, I think I'm certainly not a fan of Taylor Swift whatsoever.

Tom: But I think if you're comparing Taylor Swift to pop stars ten years ago, I think she's doing something a lot more interesting than they were then.

Phil: Yeah, music is is I, you know, I have a daughter and so I have Spotify and I listen to, you know, the the latest hits.

Phil: And I certainly think there's more going on now.

Phil: A lot of it is referential, very referential.

Phil: But I think that the pop music right now is of a much higher quality than it was ten years ago, certainly, and possibly even years ago.

Phil: So and that become, you know, because of the technology that we have, iteration happens more quickly.

Phil: And also because of technology, the technology is more accessible, right?

Phil: So before, if you had to edit a song, it would have involved having tens of, if you wanted to edit a song, it would have involved at least $worth of equipment to make it sound, you know, commercially viable or access to a studio where you're renting it for, you know, $an hour sort of thing.

Phil: So yeah, no, I think technology certainly enabled that.

Phil: I think Disco Elysium to me is important because of the unfortunate situation.

Phil: Like number one, it's a studio established by a novelist from Eastern Europe.

Phil: Number two, he's lost the IP and this is it.

Phil: So this is sort of like a game inside of a snow globe or whatever you call those things.

Phil: Is that what you call those things?

Phil: It's a ship in a bottle and it's not going to get commercialized.

Phil: It is a snapshot of a game that was received and widely critically acclaimed.

Phil: And that makes it very, very interesting to me, because there's not going to be a besmirching of its reputation.

Phil: It is its own thing, basically.

Tom: I think it's interesting.

Tom: I think it's sort of dropped out of the general consciousness after its massive hype.

Tom: And I wonder if that is because of what happened with the company who bought IP.

Phil: Yeah, perhaps.

Phil: But it's also like, you know, you can be Jonathan Blow and bring out, you know, the first hit indie game on Xbox, and then bring out The Witness, which people absolutely love.

Phil: And then no one cares what you do after that.

Phil: Like, you know, I think it's just no one's talking about Disco Elysium because there's no reason to talk about it.

Tom: But here's the thing, like people do still talk about The Witness and Braid.

Tom: You see them mentioned, I think more so The Witness and Braid these days.

Tom: You rarely see Disco Elysium mentioned.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Because, well, what would, what has it...

Tom: And I think, I think there's more, as much reason now, if not more reason now, to talk about Disco Elysium than when it came out.

Phil: What, because of the election?

Tom: Not the election.

Phil: That's a joke, obviously.

Phil: But, you know, like, besides us...

Tom: Why not the election?

Phil: Besides us, who's looking back five years and going, wow, this was an important game?

Tom: I think people should be, and I think it's bizarre that they aren't.

Phil: Yeah, well, we will get there.

Phil: Anything else to say about Disco?

Tom: Tangentially related to it.

Tom: When I was talking to my colleague, I mentioned to him that I do a games podcast.

Tom: And he asked me if I'd ever done streaming of games.

Tom: And I said no.

Tom: And he was saying with streaming and YouTube videos, being weird or having an over-the-top sort of character was a requirement.

Tom: I was thinking at the same time back to, and I should add, so at this place, I'm apparently a writer and I have marketing experience, which I do, but not in the area that they think I do.

Phil: Certainly not in the area of making Australia's longest-running video game podcast popular.

Tom: I've done, well, here's the thing, I've done no marketing on The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: Yeah, but you did tell that one guy.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: So that's better than what you've done in the last years.

Tom: I'm demonstrating my marketing experience to him.

Phil: So that's, that's good.

Tom: No, I actually, I successfully marketed my GameSpot blog and GameSpot output.

Tom: Very successful.

Phil: You did.

Phil: And in the years subsequent to us starting this podcast, you've now at least proven to me that you've told one person about it.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Did you tell him the name of the podcast?

Tom: No, I didn't.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: This is a problem.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So Master Marketer, what is it?

Phil: What amazing conversations did you have with your colleague?

Tom: But so here's what I was thinking, right?

Tom: He said, like to be successful on Twitch, you need to be weird, right?

Tom: Or have some sort of weird and interesting persona.

Tom: And I was thinking, and I wonder if things are different today.

Tom: But I was thinking of my time back on GameSpot where I had, I'm not going to be modest whatsoever, I had easily the top five, if not top three, writing output on GameSpot.

Tom: And my writing within the top three was, I would say, the only writing produced in the GameSpot community or on the GameSpot website for that matter, that in the vast swathe of video games, writing at the time stood out, at least in terms of a large amount of output, which is why I say top three, because there's two other writers on GameSpot at the time.

Tom: I remember the name of one of them, Aberynculous, I think it was.

Phil: The other one was Phil Fogg, wasn't it?

Tom: And I've forgotten the name of the other one, but it was a middle-aged Scottish man.

Tom: And I remember seeing the most generic bullshit being automatically promoted on the user content highlight, with no effort in terms of the writing.

Tom: I mean, no effort in terms of standing out or personality being put into this writing, which was just automatically promoted by the fact that it was simply someone who had written something that was words or or words long with correct grammar and spelling.

Tom: Whereas, if you wrote something with or words long that had correct grammar and spelling, but had even a drop of personality to it, you were immediately suppressed.

Tom: Actually, no, one of the people was actually on the VG Press, Gaming Eek.

Tom: And he can attest to the fact that if you wrote with personality on that website, you were censored and you were suppressed by the powers that be at GameSpot.

Tom: And I can't help but wonder whether that is true or not today.

Tom: And having personality online, if you're a streamer or a YouTuber, doesn't mean having personality, but fitting the new form of generic, which is based on the people who wrote in the background with personality years ago.

Phil: It's about marketing really, isn't it?

Phil: And if you're selling a message that they don't think is marketable or doesn't support what they're currently marketing, it's not going to gain voice when it's a commercial platform.

Tom: That's what I'm saying.

Tom: I think having personality automatically makes you unmarketable, is what I'm getting at here.

Tom: It's just that the people who were unmarketable years ago, are now the marketable personality, except it's not those people who are marketable.

Phil: Right.

Tom: It's the modern equivalent of that.

Phil: Right.

Tom: If that makes sense.

Phil: Yeah, it does.

Phil: Totally.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, Disco, done with that?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: All right.

Phil: We've only got time to go on to e-mails before we leave our dear listeners for this episode.

Phil: So this is my questions for you from other people's podcasts, where you answer questions from other podcasts because they did not answer them satisfactorily.

Phil: Indiana from an undisclosed location writes, now focus your mind and listen carefully to the question.

Phil: When using a game pad on a PC, which do you use?

Tom: PScontroller.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So you talked about using keyboard controls today on a game that I wouldn't have thought you'd use keyboard controls, which was the still wakes the deep when you're saying you'd press the right button on your mouse to look backwards.

Tom: So that's a first person game.

Tom: So of course you would use a keyboard or mouse for that.

Tom: Unless you were mentally degraded from some unknown cause.

Phil: It's called console gaming for the last X years, right?

Phil: So now, how do you choose when to use a game pad?

Phil: Like, when do you use a game pad?

Phil: Do you use it mostly?

Phil: Do you only use it in certain types of genres?

Tom: I only use it in certain games.

Tom: It's pretty rare.

Tom: I'd be more likely to use it in a platformer, definitely.

Tom: I would usually choose a controller over a keyboard or a mouse for a platformer without any question.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: That's what I thought.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: I think for maybe third person horror games, it might be better if they're...

Phil: So third person games collect a Tomb Raider.

Tom: Not Tomb Raider, no.

Tom: Tomb Raider is a third person shooter.

Tom: So that would be keyboard and mouse.

Tom: Wow.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: See, see, I use the...

Phil: obviously, I use the console because I'm playing it on a TV and I've got a rubbish keyboard and mouse set up.

Phil: And even if I did have a proper set up, you know, I use the console controller most of the time.

Phil: So, okay.

Phil: So playstation or playstation or what?

Tom: playstation

Phil: Okay.

Phil: That's a decent controller.

Phil: Are the nubs completely rubbed out at this point?

Tom: No, they're still in good condition.

Phil: Oh, well, that doesn't surprise me since you've said you use keyboard and mouse for most things.

Phil: So, yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that answers Indiana's question.

Phil: If anyone were to ask me what I use, I use a Xbox controller, which is connected via a dongle.

Phil: And I'm going to just ride that thing till it dies.

Phil: God, my hands hurt last night when I was playing, finishing off a plague tale.

Phil: You know, so at some point, I guess, yeah, I'll probably go to a playstation controller.

Phil: I use a playstation controller for my playstation, my mini playstation.

Phil: But you know, the thing that, the classic, I think it's called the playstation Classic.

Phil: I've got that wired to that.

Phil: And yeah, otherwise I use this really old Xbox controller on a dongle.

Phil: So with that, thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since

Phil: So there's a lot of resources covering games from that time till now on our website.

Phil: I most recently reviewed The Good Time Garden using your premise that it's based on The Garden of Eden.

Phil: Yeah, I thought that was a...

Phil: I particularly liked my title for that review, which was Yonic and Knuckles.

Phil: I'm not sure if you noticed that.

Tom: Yonic and Knuckles.

Phil: Yonic and Knuckles.

Tom: Yonic and Knuckles, yes.

Tom: No, yeah, I did notice that.

Phil: Because basically you're hitting things.

Phil: That's the Knuckles part and the Yonic.

Phil: I was particularly proud of that one.

Phil: So I liked it.

Phil: Thank you.

Phil: And when I review A Plague Tale, the subhead will be O Rats.

Phil: Anyway, you can go to our website, Game Under.

Tom: Well, I can't promote your work on GameSpot.

Tom: I can say you are one of the two best writers on the Game Under website.

Phil: Thank you so much.

Phil: And you can go visit gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, just go to the front page.

Phil: We don't need your email or logins or anything else.

Phil: Just go to the front page of gameunder.net and type in your questions for us or comments, and we'll bring them up in the next show.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Game Under Podcast 159

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:22 Intro - Jaffle Talk

0:02:43 News - Game Pass Downgraded

0:10:57 News - Gamescom and New Valve Game

0:16:22 News - Black Myth Wukong Sells

0:20:30 What Playing - Doom + Doom2

0:29:38 What Playing - Thank Goodness You're Here

0:44:57 What Playing - The Good Time Garden

0:54:05 What Playing - Dear Esther

1:25:03 Emails for Tom from other peoples podcasts

Transcripts
Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host, Tom Towers, and I'm joined by the ever present Jaffel, Phil Fogg.

Phil: Jaffel, yes, something our North American listeners wouldn't know what it is.

Phil: I guess I'm the raw toast, your toast, I'm the raw toast, which is what I call bread.

Tom: Jaffel isn't bread, Jaffel is a toasted sandwich.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a toasted sandwich, in fact made in a Jaffel iron.

Phil: Do you have a Jaffel iron?

Tom: I've got, I think it's technically called a, actually, I don't know what it's called, but it's a thing that closes over sandwiches and grills both sides.

Phil: Right, it's a toasted sandwich maker, which is different from a sandwich press, which is what most of our North American listeners would be familiar with.

Phil: But a Jaffel iron is something that was made basically in the s, where you can, it's not electrical.

Phil: You take a piece of bread, cheese, whatever you want to make.

Phil: In australia, we call them toasties.

Phil: You compress this thing on it.

Phil: It's like a clam-like thing with handles.

Phil: I wish I knew where ours was.

Phil: And then you put it in the fire, like a literal fire, like camping, and then you flip it over, and then you take it out, and you've got an amazing grilled cheese sandwich, is what we would call it, where I'm from.

Tom: And the way we would make Jaffels as opposed to a toasted sandwich would actually be frying them on either side in a pan.

Tom: Oh, yeah.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Well, that's a grilled cheese sandwich.

Phil: That's, yeah.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Do you butter both sides of the bread when you do a grilled cheese sandwich?

Tom: You butter both sides on the outside.

Phil: I butter, yeah, well, the outside's obviously buttered.

Phil: You have to do that.

Phil: But I also butter the insides.

Tom: I do not butter the insides.

Phil: Oh, really?

Phil: No.

Phil: Do you butter the insides of your sandwiches generally?

Tom: For a normal sandwich, yes.

Phil: Yeah, but not for grilled cheese.

Phil: Why is that?

Tom: because you got the butter on the outside.

Phil: Well, I think you have to do some reflection on that, maybe next time, butter both sides of the bread and see how it turns out.

Tom: We'll report back to you perhaps in the next episode on the results.

Phil: Important, important raw toast news in the next episode.

Phil: And speaking of news, probably the biggest news of the last couple of days, is that Microsoft has announced that Game Pass Standard and Core, which are the lower two tiers of Game Pass, are no longer getting first-party, i.e.

Phil: Microsoft Games, at launch.

Phil: Standard and Core subscribers will, quote, wait up to months plus.

Phil: This story comes to us from gamesindustry.biz.

Phil: So just to give you a recap, Standard is $a month USD, Core is $a month USD, Elite is $a month USD.

Phil: You currently have Games Pass.

Phil: What level are you on, if you know?

Tom: I'm on the PC version.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Which I think is still going to get the stuff at launch.

Phil: Is that what we figured out a few weeks ago?

Tom: I think that's what we were thinking a few weeks ago.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Well, you might want to check if you're on the Standard or Core because you won't be getting those games at launch, at which point, what's the point?

Phil: So Games Pass has gone from a, or Game Pass has gone from being the best deal in video gaming.

Tom: Second best deal in video gaming.

Tom: I think the itch IO are charity sales with the best deal.

Phil: I agree with that.

Phil: But yeah, this is not, this is interesting for Microsoft.

Phil: I don't know how much we want to talk about it.

Phil: But for example, the games that came out of Gamescom, which I'll talk about next.

Phil: You know, Indiana Jones was one of those games that I've said, oh, well, I'm definitely going to get that.

Phil: Maybe I'll get games pass at that point.

Phil: But now, unless you're playing at the top tier, you're not going to be getting Indiana Jones on day one, unless you pay for it.

Phil: And now at Gamescom, Microsoft has announced that Indiana Jones will not be an exclusive.

Phil: It will be coming to PlayStation.

Phil: Five months after launch.

Phil: So in essence, like if you're relying on Game Pass Standard and Core to get you that game, people on PlayStation will be getting it first.

Phil: Now, albeit they'll be paying for it, but so will you, because if you're paying for Standard or Core, you're paying $a month.

Phil: So they'll actually, if you're on Core, people on PlayStation will be paying less for the game than you are, and playing it sooner, seven months sooner.

Phil: And this is where I think the, you know, Microsoft, you know, following is really sore at Microsoft over this announcement.

Phil: Should they be, in your opinion?

Tom: I think so.

Tom: I think it's probably not really worth having at this stage with that in mind.

Tom: You've still got, were they also cutting back on the Bethesda games, or is that the same?

Phil: Well, the indie game is coming from Machine Games slash Starberries.

Phil: You know, the people that used to be Starberries, and they're owned by Bethesda.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: And so.

Tom: So, essentially, the biggest exclusives are now no longer a part of it in a timely manner.

Phil: No.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, there's some speculation that the next Xbox will be a Switch-like PC that will support Steam and the Epic Store.

Phil: So, I've heard that from two different sources now.

Phil: And when you look at the success, the commercial success at Microsoft had with Sea of Thieves and Hi-Fi rush coming out on other systems, you know, I think Microsoft is just making money decisions at this point, which, you know, they're a business and that's what they've got to do.

Phil: But certainly, yeah, gamers are not getting the great deal that they were once getting.

Tom: So, that would then have it competing against the Steam Deck.

Tom: When you put it to me that way, I think more Steam Deck than Switch.

Phil: Yeah, it's basically a Steam Deck.

Phil: What it's looking like is a Steam Deck that comes with, is operating off of Windows essentially.

Phil: Now, it'll be a skinned, you know, shrunken down version of Windows

Phil: You won't turn it on and it'll boot to Windows.

Phil: It'll turn on and boot to, you know, the Xbox interface, but then fully support Steam and the Epic Store.

Phil: So, you know, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Phil: I think that's probably the right move for them right now.

Phil: I wouldn't be surprised to see games like, you know, Halo Infinite coming available on PlayStation at this point.

Phil: I don't think there's anything sacred in the Microsoft library.

Phil: If they see a good business reason to put one of their games on the PlayStation platform, they're going to do it.

Phil: And in doing so, they're going to perhaps be more appealing than whatever PlayStation is offering, or equally appealing, because PlayStation is bringing their games to Steam, albeit much later.

Phil: So, yeah, it's interesting where this is all going to end up.

Phil: Ultimately, I feel that if their hardware offering is a portable system that supports Steam, then that's more attractive than just another Xbox console that is locked, you know, just to Xbox games.

Tom: It is, but I'm also not sure they'd be able to pull it off.

Tom: I think the way Xbox has presented themselves in the past anyway has been as a very traditional sort of console.

Tom: Whereas I don't think, I think the way the Switch works so well is Nintendo presents themselves as offering something different and interesting.

Tom: I don't know if the same thing will work for Microsoft.

Phil: Well, it'll be different in that it's providing the Xbox games, past games, and Steam in a portable, accessible fashion.

Phil: So you can put Windows on a Steam Deck now, but it's still not ideal because you're running the full Windows operating system on a mobile system, which isn't ideal, basically.

Phil: You can include it, but it's not a consumer-ready product.

Phil: And I think if Microsoft were to produce an Xbox that was consumer-ready, dockable, hey, you don't have to be a geek to figure out how to do this.

Tom: As a games console, though, what would be the advantage of Windows ?

Phil: The Steam compatibility.

Tom: But you don't, like, with the Steam Deck, that's got Steam on it without Windows

Tom: So it's not really offering anything different to the Steam Deck.

Tom: The difference is that it will play Xbox games.

Phil: Yeah, and honestly, I don't think there's too much benefit to that.

Phil: You know, like, at that point, why don't you just get a PC?

Phil: But it comes down to them selling game pass predominantly and having a hardware presence, just to say we've got a hardware presence or for people who see PCs as being something that's just beyond their ability to figure out.

Phil: Yeah, I'm not saying I'm in favor of the strategy, but I can see that it is at least better than what they're doing now because I would at least consider a portable gaming platform that supports Steam and Xbox and Epic, as opposed to like there is no chance of me buying another Xbox console when I've got a PC hooked up to my TV.

Phil: And, you know, Steam Big Picture Mode works as brilliantly as it does.

Phil: Like there is no reason to do it at all.

Tom: Particularly not with Game Pass.

Phil: No, that's right, that's right.

Phil: Speaking of Steam, story number two, Valve has admitted to a new game called Deadlock.

Phil: It's been added to Steam.

Phil: You cannot play it or buy it yet.

Phil: It's still invite only.

Phil: And we only mention it because it is a rare thing in gaming when Valve actually makes a new game.

Phil: It's a blend of genres combining...

Phil: Oh, this story critic to this goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: It's a blend of genres combining hero shooters with MOBA.

Phil: And it's an action game vthird-person hero shooter.

Phil: And it takes place across four lanes with aggressively respawning waves of troopers.

Phil: So not really much to talk about there.

Phil: Certainly not a game that's in my wheelhouse.

Phil: But speaking of Gamescom, looking at the coverage, there's two games I'm interested in.

Tom: Can I just ask, what is a hero shooter?

Phil: Hero shooter is like Destiny, or...

Tom: Fortnite?

Phil: No, not Fortnite, the other one.

Phil: The other Blizzard game.

Phil: You'll think of it.

Tom: Starcraft?

Phil: No.

Phil: Lost Vikings?

Phil: No, no, no, not that Blizzard game either.

Phil: It's a hero shooter.

Phil: You know, a hero shooter.

Tom: Is it a first person shooter?

Phil: Yeah, it can be a first person shooter.

Tom: Is it a third person shooter?

Phil: It can be a third person shooter also.

Tom: I'm just questioning the usefulness of the term hero shooter.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, look it up.

Phil: It's an actual genre.

Phil: In fact, if you put in hero shooter, it'll probably be the first game that comes up.

Phil: It was extremely popular, if not just for its user-generated pornography.

Tom: Isn't that Fortnite?

Tom: I'm sure that's Fortnite.

Phil: No, it's not Fortnite.

Tom: Overwatch.

Phil: Oh, there you go.

Phil: Overwatch.

Phil: And then, yeah, Randy Pitchford's team came up with another hero shooter around the same time that it was quickly shut down as well.

Tom: So essentially, it's a shooter with character classes in it.

Phil: And the aggressive respawning waves of enemies.

Tom: And why have they gone with hero shooter as opposed to character shooter to be consistent with character action game, which you could also call hero action game?

Phil: Yeah, you could.

Phil: You could.

Phil: I just think at this point, if you want to...

Phil: What was the name of the game that you recalled from Blizzard?

Tom: Overwatch.

Phil: Overwatch.

Phil: If you want people just to know that this is an Overwatch, quote, MOBA, or slash MOBA, then the easiest way of saying it these days is hero shooter.

Tom: I think Overwatch clone would be the best description.

Phil: Yeah, well, that's what hero shooter means.

Phil: It's mean that for a while now.

Tom: So it's a marketing euphemism.

Tom: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: Essentially.

Phil: Yep, it's a catchphrase, a catch-all catchphrase.

Phil: Looking at the other games on offer at Gamescom, two games came out at me that immediately went on to my wishlist.

Phil: One is Atomfall, Atomfall from Rebellion, the people that make Sniper Elite.

Phil: And it's a, it was supposed to be like a Skyrim RPG type game set in North England during the s, post a nuclear apocalypse or nuclear accident.

Tom: It looks very much like Atomic Heart.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Now, what's Atomic Heart?

Tom: Atomic Heart is a, I think the term we're using these days is Soviet shooter, I think.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Which would encompass Metro, Stalker, other various games, which isn't really anything like.

Tom: But it's basically set during the Cold War in a science fiction Cold War setting.

Tom: And when I first saw Atomfall, I thought it was a sequel to Atomic Heart.

Tom: They look so similar.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So now they started going down the route.

Tom: Maybe, actually, the genre is Atom Shooter.

Tom: That makes a lot of sense.

Phil: So this is the latest Atom Shooter that I've seen, that I've been really interested in.

Phil: And they started out developing it as a obsidian-like RPG, ran into some trouble and then said, well, what are we good at?

Phil: And they went, well, Sniper Elite.

Phil: So they've sort of combined the two.

Phil: But you can play this game by killing everyone in the game or by killing no one.

Phil: Like, you have complete choice as to how you're gonna play it.

Phil: So lots of vibes of Fallout, Las Vegas.

Phil: Yeah, so I'm looking forward to that one.

Phil: The other one I'm interested in is Avowed by Obsidian, which is an action RPG and looks pretty good as well.

Tom: That looks Last of Us inspired.

Phil: Yeah, Avowed, yeah, it's sort of Skyrim-y sort of as well.

Phil: So I'm more interested in Adamfall than I am Avowed.

Tom: So it's more Skyrim-y than The Last of Us, you think?

Phil: I think so, definitely.

Tom: So it's not a last shooter?

Tom: No, no, it's a SkyPG.

Phil: Speaking of game genres, games being turned into genre names, there's a new Souls-like action RPG that's been developed in China.

Phil: It's receiving generally lukewarm reviews, I mean, sevens and eights.

Phil: But it's breaking records for selling over million copies in just three days.

Phil: Now, even the name of the game, it's hard to get your head around, is Black Myth, Colon, Wukong.

Phil: And it's based on the classical Chinese novel Journey to the West.

Phil: And that's like monkey magic, if you're familiar with the old TV show, or Dragon Ball Z has been based on Journey to the West.

Phil: There's video games called Journey to the West for the PlayStation.

Phil: The game that we talked about a couple of weeks ago that I can never remember the name of.

Tom: Enslaved.

Phil: Enslaved, also based on Journey to the West.

Phil: So, yeah, and developed in China, so.

Tom: And Azura's Wrath, is that another one?

Phil: I'm not sure about that.

Tom: There's another character action game based on it.

Tom: I'm just trying to recall which one.

Tom: Yeah, Azura's Wrath.

Tom: Not based on it, it has some references to it.

Phil: Which is a brilliant game.

Phil: And I loved Monkey Magic when I was a kid growing up.

Phil: The question I have is why?

Phil: Why is this game selling so well?

Tom: In what market is it selling?

Phil: Well, it's for PlayStation and PC.

Phil: It's been released, you know, into the Western world and in China.

Phil: I'm having to think it's because of China, right?

Tom: So we don't know where the sales are?

Phil: No, we don't.

Phil: We're relying on the manufacturer to release this information.

Phil: So there you go.

Phil: And like every company in China is owned, in part, at least by the Chinese Communist Party.

Phil: So, you know, this could be propaganda.

Phil: I mean, you know, if we are relying on the developer publisher to give us the information, and that developer publisher is owned by the Chinese Communist Party, maybe we can take this with a grain of salt.

Phil: But, yeah, I mean, like it appears to be a pretty middling game.

Phil: Other than its Journey to the West connection, I'd certainly have no interest in it.

Phil: And also the fact that it's a Souls-like, which is not my cup of tea either.

Tom: I'm looking at it on YouTube, and the trailer has, that is, PlayStation has only million views.

Tom: But you go to the comments, and maybe they're elucidating.

Phil: Oh.

Phil: Are they leguprious?

Tom: Here's an example of one.

Tom: Guys, I'm Hong Kong Chinese.

Tom: We all raised by watching Journey to the West since we were kids.

Tom: We read the novel.

Tom: Boys always plays pretends as Wukong, the same as Western kids dream of becoming Superman or Spider-Man.

Tom: Some of the details are really heart touching.

Tom: They were based on the novel.

Tom: This is a big moment for the Chinese player.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So that's why.

Tom: Maybe it is the Chinese market thing.

Tom: And judging by the Chinese people I've met on Sky, I wouldn't be surprised if it had sold in such numbers in China, because usually they're very big fans of whatever Chinese game is popular.

Tom: And given they're mainly mobile players, they're not buying games, but they certainly do spend money on in-game purchases.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That's actually you've come up with the answer there, and I should have known it, because yeah, the stories also reference that this is getting, it's basically seen as a patriotic activity.

Phil: Oh, look how great this game is, and look how popular it is.

Phil: So, yep.

Phil: So you've solved that one.

Phil: But yeah, well, that closes out our news, so we'll move on to what we've been playing.

Phil: I'll quickly mention that I've spent most of my time, which is a lie, playing a Plague Tale Innocence, and I'll have nothing more to say on this game until I finish it.

Phil: But one game I think both of us have been playing, in an interesting development, Doom and Doom or Doom or Doom plus Doom came out.

Tom: I think it's Doom plus

Phil: Doom plus okay.

Phil: And which would equal Doom

Tom: That's what I was thinking.

Phil: I don't think anyone would be interested in that.

Phil: So anyway, turn on my Steam library, and it's like, oh, here you go.

Phil: Doom plus Doom has been updated.

Phil: I'm like, okay, didn't even realize I owned it.

Phil: But yeah, all right, fine.

Phil: I go to play it, and it is the most brilliant remaster of Doom and Doom available.

Phil: The game has been developed by Nightdive in cooperation with ID and Machine Games.

Phil: It's available for PC, PlayStation and Xbox Series console Switch, and even PlayStation and Xbox, Xbox One.

Phil: And it's got player multiplayer.

Phil: It's got a vast array of enhancements, frames per second support on consoles, co-op gaming, and an amazing new soundtrack.

Phil: In the story I was reading, basically said, oh, it's by Legendary, blah, blah.

Phil: And I'm like, okay, this guy's Legendary, so I should probably know about him.

Phil: I look up his game credits and it's like, this guy's not Legendary, but he's done a fantastic job with the music in this.

Phil: Would you agree?

Tom: Definitely.

Tom: Who are we talking about?

Phil: I'm not even going to mention his name because they're saying he's Legendary, and then I looked up his credits.

Tom: So we should all know his name, then, is what you're saying.

Phil: Yeah, and then I looked up his credits, and it's basically like Doom and a cancelled Duke Nukem game.

Phil: And I'm like, well, okay, that's not really Legendary.

Phil: You won't know his name if you look him up.

Phil: And so basically, if you owned a copy of Doom or Doom on all of these consoles, PlayStation Xbox One, Steam, Switch, Epic Game Store, Microsoft Game Store, even good old games, you automatically receive this remaster.

Phil: So yeah, of course, at some point, I bought Doom on Steam because it was probably cents.

Phil: And now I have this amazing remaster that is supports mods and it has like different games inside of it.

Phil: This is brilliant.

Phil: I mean, thank you, Bethesda.

Phil: This is beyond generous, and I have no idea why they've done it.

Phil: Can you speculate?

Tom: I don't know either.

Phil: Certainly appreciated.

Phil: I mean, I've...

Tom: Maybe it's hype for an upcoming Doom or something to do in between that series of Dooms, as in Doom in the reboot series.

Phil: Right, well, there's a new Doom coming out, I think, in February of next year.

Phil: It's the one that's set in the Middle Ages, right?

Tom: So I think it's probably hype for that because the second Doom certainly did not have as much hype around it as the first reboot Doom did.

Tom: So maybe they're trying to bring some more excitement around it.

Phil: Back to the franchise, yeah.

Phil: So the Doom remake was incredible.

Phil: Then they made it really stupidly complicated on the remaster, and it was just confusing and dumb, and I did not enjoy it at all.

Phil: So yeah, it might be just to bring back some of the love, but you know, I'm going to do the thing that I do every episode, you know, the game that you recommended to me, the retro first person shooter, what they'd probably call a boomer shooter these days.

Tom: Project Warlock?

Phil: Oh, Project Warlock.

Phil: I mean, Project Warlock was my game of the year for that year.

Phil: Everyone should play it.

Phil: This is better than Project Warlock.

Phil: But it is just, it is brilliant.

Phil: And I love every, I love every part of it.

Phil: And I find myself, I'll just be like in between something, I'll just be like, okay, I'll just go play Doom.

Phil: And you know, you go, you know, minutes later, you're still playing it.

Phil: It's just brilliant.

Tom: Well, of course Doom is better than Project Warlock.

Phil: Well, of course it is, but it's Project Warlock.

Phil: It's what Doom should be in

Phil: You know, it's great.

Tom: Are there non-aesthetic differences between it and the original?

Phil: Not that I can tell.

Phil: I mean, to me, it feels a lot easier.

Phil: And that might, I mean, because when I was playing this on the original hardware...

Tom: I think the controls are different.

Tom: I think you can possibly aim up and down with the cursor now, whereas in the original, whether you're shooting up or down, everything is on a flat plane.

Tom: So you can change the controls so that you can aim with the mouse, but you're essentially aiming right and left.

Tom: And if enemies are above you, you just need to be in line with them, and you'll be shooting them.

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: I'm playing with an Xbox controller on PC, and it was funny because I was trying to line up a site of someone that was higher than me.

Phil: And it's like, why isn't this working?

Phil: That's right, I don't have to do that.

Phil: I just have to point my gun in this direction.

Tom: Okay, so that's still the same?

Phil: Yeah, on controller at least.

Phil: Yeah, I haven't tried it with mouse and keyboard.

Phil: But yeah, incredibly generous, and thank you Bethesda for this.

Tom: The other thing is, I think it's interesting, because it looks good.

Tom: The new heavy metal soundtrack by one of the most legendary game composers of all time is very good.

Tom: But I played the first level very quickly, hence my lack of details in my commentary here, because I can do that very quickly.

Tom: I think the part time is seconds.

Tom: So the first level is very short.

Tom: And I then went back and played the original.

Tom: And the difference is night and day.

Tom: The graphics in the original, the music in the original, the sound in the original, everything is just so much better.

Tom: So I just thought absolutely percent.

Tom: The high fidelity.

Phil: Wait, just say that again for people who were driving in their cars and weren't listening properly.

Tom: So I played the first level of the remaster of Doom

Tom: Really enjoyed the heavy metal soundtrack and the high resolution graphics.

Tom: I then went back and played the first level in the original version of Doom, and it just blew the remaster out of the water.

Phil: Yeah, you're wrong.

Phil: You're quantifiably wrong.

Tom: I'm objectively correct.

Tom: Objectively correct.

Tom: % correct.

Tom: If you listen to that, you listen to the music in the original, it is, without comparison, some of the best video game music ever.

Tom: And okay, it's not comparable to techno of the time.

Tom: I think you can make that case.

Tom: But I don't think you can come up with a soundtrack of that fidelity of that era that is night and day better than it.

Phil: So you're just saying the soundtrack.

Tom: The music is significantly better.

Tom: That's one aspect of it.

Tom: I mean, there's really two differences in the remaster.

Tom: It's the music and the graphics, right?

Phil: Yes, yeah.

Tom: So that's what we should be judging it on.

Phil: Yeah, and the inclusion of all the freebies, all the extras.

Tom: The other thing is the graphics.

Tom: On the one hand, you can say it's nice having it at a higher resolution, but the thing with old graphics like that is the lower fidelity allows you to project so much into the graphics that you end up with something that just looks better than what you end up with when you're putting it at a higher resolution, and you can see all the details all like thereof clearly.

Phil: Well, my respect for you means that I will go in and do this, I will go back and play the original.

Tom: I'm not saying that the music isn't great in the remaster and that it doesn't look great.

Tom: The music is great and it absolutely looks great too.

Phil: And it plays brilliantly.

Phil: Yep, of course.

Phil: I think, you know, I'm dealing with memories in my head of playing Doom on a and like I'd actually have Chug, which I'm not opposed to, I'm actually a fan of Chugging graphics.

Tom: You should be able to run it smoothly now.

Tom: I would hope.

Phil: I would think so.

Phil: With that, we will move on to our next game, which we both played.

Phil: It's a game which I think is one of the worst names of all time because I cannot ever remember the name of the game.

Phil: And the name of the game is Thank Goodness You're Here.

Phil: And I keep looking for so glad that you're here.

Phil: It's good that you're here.

Phil: Oh, here you are.

Phil: That's good.

Phil: Am I an idiot in this case or is this a bad video game name?

Tom: I think it's a good video game name.

Tom: It is Sans Out.

Tom: There aren't many other video games with a name like that.

Tom: And it is very reminiscent of an English sitcom from the s.

Phil: Yeah, or before.

Phil: Yeah, because, well, we'll get to that later.

Phil: So this is a game developed by basically two people, one named James Carbet and Will Todd.

Phil: They are the people who run a studio called Coal Supper, as coal as in the thing that you get from the ground.

Phil: It's on the Unity engine and available for Mac, Switch, Windows, PlayStation and PlayStation

Phil: It's just been released.

Phil: And I would classify this as a point and click adventure.

Tom: I would say the same thing, although the controls are not point and click.

Phil: No, but that's, I mean, that's essentially what you do.

Tom: It's certainly an adventure game in the traditional sense.

Phil: So just to frame it, it's a point and click adventure game with hand drawn animation, an original soundtrack.

Phil: Players take the role of a traveling salesman with a lemon head.

Phil: Here's a little tiny man with a head in the shape of a horizontally arranged lemon.

Phil: And he's a traveling salesman who performs odd jobs for the residents of a town that couldn't be described as bizarre in Northern England.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, it's getting a lot of credit for being an extremely funny game.

Phil: That's what it's been, that's its calling card.

Phil: People are saying, oh, this game is hilarious.

Phil: People say video games can't do jokes.

Phil: This is hilarious.

Phil: It's fun.

Phil: just to describe it, as I said, it's hand drawn, so it looks better than any kid's animated TV show.

Phil: It looks absolutely wonderful.

Phil: It's oozing with style.

Tom: I think it reminds me the look of an English cartoon called, this is Pond Life, crossed with Wallace and Cromart.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I mean, it looks, I mean, like if you think more broadly, you could broadly say that it's kind of like Pepper the Pig type animation as well, with bold outlines and colourful, colourfully drawn characters.

Phil: It's in a D setting and it has, you know, parts of it where you'll go in and out of dimension, you'll get smaller and larger towards the screen, but it's really all about moving to the left, moving to the right, up and down pretty freely.

Phil: It's a beautiful game.

Phil: Would you agree?

Tom: I'm not trying to call it beautiful.

Phil: I think in terms of art style also, Robert Crumb is an influence.

Phil: And in fact, Colesappers logo is a Robert Crumb tip of the hat.

Tom: I think it looks good.

Tom: I just would not use the term beautiful to describe it.

Phil: Well, it's highly stylish.

Phil: I mean, it has its own style.

Tom: It's got a lot of character.

Phil: A lot of character.

Phil: And it's also got a lot of...

Phil: A lot of the humor relies on double entendre, I would say.

Phil: In fact, most of the humor.

Tom: There's a lot of innuendo in it.

Phil: A lot of innuendo and a lot of knowing humor about English life in a small coal town in the north of England.

Phil: Though, when I looked it up, like Lancashire, for example, or Lancaster, you know, it's not Lancashire, rather, like in Wigan and Liverpool and all those areas up there, they're not that far from London at all.

Phil: I mean, it's not like...

Phil: To me, it's not really north England, but anyway.

Tom: We are in australia, though.

Phil: We are.

Tom: So, we probably have different standards of distance.

Phil: That is true.

Phil: We know that's true, because English people think two hours is a long drive.

Tom: That's to get out of the inner city.

Phil: Yeah, it is, actually.

Phil: First of all, speaking...

Phil: Do you just want to frame the game some more beyond what I've said?

Tom: Well, you're playing as an unknown office worker who is sent off by his boss to meet the mayor, to discuss something with the mayor.

Tom: But when you arrive, you discover the mayor is busy, at which point you leave, and that's when a series of incidents where you are helping people occur while you're waiting to finally meet the mayor.

Phil: And you're sent on a series of catch three rats type jobs.

Phil: But did you find this game for its reputation to be an extremely funny game?

Phil: Did you find it humorous?

Tom: I found it amusing.

Tom: That's the word I would use.

Phil: I agree.

Phil: I love British comedy.

Phil: I love, I don't love British culture, but like, for example, I listen to the BBC news every day.

Phil: I don't listen to the australian news.

Phil: So one of the funniest shows I like is Ricky Gervais has a series called The Extras.

Phil: But the best part of that for me is a sitcom within The Extras called When the Whistle Blows.

Phil: Are you familiar with it?

Tom: No, I'm not.

Phil: Oh, it's worth looking up.

Phil: because people on YouTube have taken When the Whistle Blows shows out of The Extras and put them online.

Phil: It's a very, are you being served?

Phil: Again, all the humor is innuendo.

Phil: And it's catchphrases.

Phil: And it's basically like this game as well.

Phil: So I appreciate that sense of humor.

Phil: I prefer the British office over the American office easily.

Phil: And I grew up enjoying English comedy.

Phil: So it's not like I'm not aware of it.

Phil: But I never once laughed out loud during this game, or even chuckled.

Phil: I found it, as you said, I think you've summed it up well.

Phil: I found it amusing, but not like crazy funny.

Phil: Like I wouldn't call it the funniest game I've ever played.

Tom: I would neither.

Phil: Speaking of, what would you, thinking back of the funniest games you've played, can you, any come to mind immediately?

Tom: Yes, without any question.

Tom: What's the serial killer David Cage game called again?

Phil: Heavy Rain.

Tom: Heavy Rain.

Tom: That is, without a doubt, the funniest game I've played.

Phil: I'm gonna say I enjoyed two types of games.

Phil: One was British Humor, which was the game you remembered last episode that I couldn't.

Phil: The third person shooter with the shark gun.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: I found that game to be life out loud funny.

Phil: And again, it's set in England's north again.

Phil: Gosh, I wish I could remember the name of that game.

Phil: Developed by Planet Moon.

Phil: The other game that I found to be funny is American Humor, which was Bullet Storm, which is funny in a Tropic Thunder type of way.

Phil: It's just American bombast.

Phil: And it actually is more Paul Verhoeven, because I think it was developed by a Scandinavian team, and it was their take on American action movies and heroes.

Phil: So it's much more of a Robocop type thing.

Tom: So Dutch humor.

Phil: Dutch humor.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So those, to me, are the funniest games I've ever played.

Phil: Do you want to talk about the gameplay in this and how you enjoyed it or didn't enjoy it?

Tom: Well, basically, you are going through the town, and there's a lot of backtracking, although it's not really backtracking, because as you go from...

Tom: as you unlock each new area of the game, you're essentially given various different routes that take you back to the beginning, and each time you go through, there's usually a different interaction with the same or with new characters, which they do play up in the humour at times, which works quite well.

Tom: You are solving very simple puzzles as you're going through.

Tom: They're usually pretty obvious, so there's not too much thinking involved, and it flows quite well most of the time.

Tom: The focus, I think, is very much on the jokes, as opposed to solving the puzzles.

Tom: And there are minor platforming elements as well.

Phil: That describes it well.

Phil: I also, if people are not aware, I encourage you to look up George Formby, F-O-R-M-B-Y, who was an English actor, singer, songwriter and comedian, who was a worldwide celebrity and one of the most famous people in the UK during the s and s.

Phil: And he sang these songs that were laden with innuendo.

Phil: And because he's from Wigan, it just tied in so much to this game to me.

Phil: When I played one of his great songs, when I'm cleaning windows to my daughter, she smiled immediately and went, oh, that's the song from Lemonhead, which is what she calls this game, because the guy has a lemon, you know, he looks like a lemon.

Tom: He also looks quite a bit like Angry Kid.

Tom: Are you familiar with that?

Tom: That's an English comedy series by Aardman.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: I'll have to, oh, yes, he does look like, oh, God, when did this come out?

Tom: A long time ago.

Tom: I remember discovering it on Newgrounds at the height of Flash games.

Phil: Yeah, so just speaking about this game in terms of its accessibility and simplicity, perhaps, my six-year-old daughter has been playing this game every night.

Phil: After I've beaten it, she's gone back through and played it by herself.

Phil: She loves this game, and it's completely...

Phil: She's playing through it by herself.

Phil: Like, I might give her prompts from now and then.

Phil: I might go, hey, you know, you haven't looked at this part of the screen, or go up to the left and look there.

Phil: But beyond that, I'm not helping her in any way, and she's thoroughly enjoying it.

Phil: obviously, she doesn't get any of the overt humor in it.

Phil: But the click part of this game is basically you go around slapping people.

Phil: So, if you want to activate something, you walk up to it and you slap it.

Phil: And from her six-year-old sense of humor, she's going around slapping people's bums, and she's laughing out loud all the time.

Phil: So, at one point, you can go up to a fellow, and he's bending over to pick up something up.

Phil: You slap his bottom, and then he's offended, and he closes his door and puts up a sign.

Phil: It says close due to slappy bum bum.

Phil: And she would not stop laughing.

Tom: That was a highlight, I think.

Phil: Yeah, she's at the point where she's reading as well, which is, you know, from a parent's point of view, this is a fantastic game, because for kids playing video games, one of the biggest things that you come up with is end state.

Phil: And there's no end state in this game.

Phil: There's no point where the time runs out or she gets killed by an enemy and has to start over.

Phil: She can just explore on her own will and has a tremendous amount of fun.

Phil: The part that she likes the most is when she gets to go through the pipes.

Tom: And can I just say Innuendo is excellent for children.

Tom: In my experience anyway.

Tom: When I was very young, my favourite, one of my favourite comedy shows was without a question, I'm not sure, a series of films, The Carry On series.

Phil: Oh yeah.

Tom: I think Innuendo is a great way to be exposed to more complex language and more complex ways of thinking about language and learning about how metaphor and things like that work.

Phil: It's wonderful in terms of developing your language skills as well, and also developing humor as well.

Phil: So yeah, and she's not getting the jokes, of course, but like when I was growing up, my favorite TV show was Are You Being Served?

Phil: Are you familiar with that?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: So it's a British sitcom set in the department store, which is % Innuendo.

Phil: And, you know, it was pretty groundbreaking at the time, because John Inman was playing a very flamboyant gay character at a time where in every other aspect of society, you know, homosexuality was something that was not, you know, acceptable.

Phil: But, you know, my family, we all sat down and we watched Are You Being Served?

Phil: And weren't laughing at him, but laughing with him and enjoying all of the show.

Phil: And obviously I didn't get any of the jokes or most of the jokes.

Phil: It was just funny people talking in a funny way.

Phil: But yeah, and I think that's the charm of Thank Goodness You're Here.

Phil: I think it was about $to $australian.

Phil: So it's probably $US.

Phil: And something I'd thoroughly recommend to everyone to play.

Phil: How long do you think it takes to get through?

Tom: Maybe about three hours?

Phil: Yeah, I think maybe a little bit longer maybe.

Phil: But yeah, I thoroughly recommend it.

Phil: I think it's a good game.

Tom: I would agree with that.

Tom: I think the other thing it does well, which I think makes it a more enjoyable experience than the humor, is showing the place where the game is set, which is helped by you constantly going back and forth through areas.

Tom: But it creates a very immersive picture of a fictionalized time and place in England, I would say.

Phil: Oh yeah, it's obviously material.

Phil: I would have to think that James Carbott and Will Todd, the designers, have personal experience with.

Phil: And I think that the game opening with actual video of s or s, you know, of a coal city in northern England at that time, I love that.

Phil: I mean, I think it's a fantastic aesthetic choice.

Phil: because when I went to play it for the first time, I went in as cold as I could with it.

Phil: I was like, this is like real video from like what?

Phil: What's going on here?

Phil: I just thought that that rooted the game to the source material majestically.

Phil: I thought that was a wonderful thing.

Phil: I think these guys are very talented.

Tom: And before we move on, we've got to talk about the first game they made, which you can actually play for free.

Phil: For free, it's available on itch or steam.

Phil: Developed by the same two fellas, reading the credits, you know, there's some QA work, but mostly it's thanks to, but it's developed by the same people who...

Phil: And these guys aren't just the designers.

Phil: They're writing the code, they're doing the music.

Phil: It's fantastic.

Phil: And both of these games, I think, have fantastic soundtracks.

Phil: You can, on itch, I think you can pay $and you get the full soundtrack or enhanced soundtrack.

Phil: And the name of the game is The Good Time Garden.

Phil: And I would nominate this for winner of The Gundy, and for those new listeners, The Gundys are our annual Game Under Game Awards.

Phil: They're called Gundys.

Phil: This I am going to nominate for That's a Penis category.

Phil: This, would you disagree with that?

Tom: I would actually, it has to come out this year, doesn't it?

Phil: Well, we might have to do some on, we, this is a category that we've skipped in the last few Gundys.

Phil: So, I think for this year, we might make an exception, since we both played it for the first time this year.

Tom: I think we should always make this exception.

Phil: I agree.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: If it's a game that we've played this year, it's eligible for a Gundy.

Phil: Agree?

Tom: Agree.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: So, in this game, again, by Cole Supper, you explore a throbbing pink world full of strange naked creatures to gather food for your friend in a game that takes...

Phil: Took me about minutes to play, and it's certainly surreal.

Phil: It, again, features the same frame by frame hand-drawn animation with an original soundtrack, and you interact with the environment by going around hitting things just as you did in...

Phil: Thank goodness you're here.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: This game is basically all vaginas and penises, like the whole thing, right?

Tom: Pretty much.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I was struck by the opening credits.

Phil: I'm like, this is really good.

Phil: And again, these guys, they have a great sense of style and a great execution of style.

Phil: But, dear, you want to talk about your experience with it?

Tom: I wish I played this after Thank Goodness You're Here, because this is better in every way than Thank Goodness You're Here.

Tom: It's funnier, it's significantly more unhinged, it's constantly surprising, even though it's basically the same sort of joke repeated throughout.

Tom: And if you go blind into this, it's just a completely crazy experience from beginning to end.

Phil: Yeah, and we do use chapter markers.

Phil: So if you haven't yet played this game, again, it's free on Steam.

Phil: It's only half an hour long.

Phil: Maybe just skip to the next section and come back and listen to our comments about this because it is better to go into this game cold.

Phil: When I found out that this game was available for free, I went, oh, okay, well, I'll go play that.

Phil: Then I'll decide if I'm going to buy.

Phil: Thank goodness you're here.

Phil: I was four minutes into this game, and I stopped and I went and bought.

Phil: Thank goodness you're here.

Phil: I think even I was texting you, oh, yeah, Good Time Garden free.

Phil: I'll see if I like it, and then maybe I'll buy this other game these guys are making.

Phil: Right?

Phil: I was four minutes into this game.

Phil: I'm like, this is probably the most perverse game I've ever played.

Phil: I describe it as an infanticide simulator.

Phil: If you wanted to go all Fox News sensationalist on it, you'd call The Good Time Garden an infanticide simulator.

Tom: It's abortion propaganda.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Basically, you are a naked man.

Phil: Yes, that's a penis.

Phil: Walking through this area that's, in terms of art design, essentially a vagina land full of penis-like things.

Tom: Yonic garden.

Phil: Yonic, exactly.

Phil: And you come across this ugly looking thing that wants to be fed.

Phil: And so you go around performing five or six acts like betraying friendships, taking babies away from other living things and feeding it to this thing, killing people who give you their trust, killing people who are helping you.

Phil: Basically, you're doing all of these really bad things to feed this centrally located, disgusting thing.

Phil: And every time you feed it, it changes color.

Phil: It is a vagina, essentially, I would describe it.

Phil: And it's like the first time that you're walking around, it's like, okay, well, what's this coming out of the ground?

Phil: Okay, these look like nipples.

Phil: Okay, I'll just slap these nipples because that's the only thing I can do to interact with them or these breasts.

Phil: So you slap these breasts and then this creature, it merges from the ground, which is both a man and a woman.

Phil: I think you slap them again and they spit out a baby.

Phil: You then take the baby and feed it to the vagina that then takes pleasure from it.

Phil: And then they give you the shout sound from Skyrim.

Phil: The, you know, the dragon shout, the ooh, ah, rah, you know, type thing.

Phil: And then your job is to then go on to the next thing to try and find and solve some simple puzzles to feed this character again.

Phil: And ultimately, spoiler, you are consumed by this thing.

Phil: So your ultimate act is to feed yourself to this thing.

Phil: You go online and there's no reviews of this game.

Phil: It hasn't qualified for any meta critic reviews.

Phil: I'll be writing a review of this as soon as I can because no one else has examined the subject matter of this game.

Phil: This game is profound, different, unique.

Phil: It's worthy of discussion.

Tom: Even on the forum, there isn't much discussion.

Tom: No, no.

Phil: Even in a Steam forum, there's like, oh, I couldn't get this to work.

Phil: Some funny thing about it is that they didn't know what they were doing with Unity, and so it's cooking processes.

Phil: It's quite funny because it's such a simple game that processes are trying to render it, and they didn't cap out the frame rate or something, which is funny in and of itself.

Phil: But yeah, so what do you want to say about this game?

Tom: I think actually that covers it quite well.

Tom: I think the only thing I would add is, I'm not sure we can conclude it is a vagina at the beginning.

Tom: As much as that looks also like a tumor, but by the time you're feeding yourself to it, I think it has become one.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: Do you think there's any significance to that transformation?

Phil: You know, I wanted to ask you what this is about, because I'd like, I'd love to know what this game is about.

Tom: Is it about anything?

Tom: The feeling I got from it was, hence why I called it a Yonic Garden, is it feels like a Garden of Eden setting.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: Which is perhaps why everyone is so happy about all the horrific things that are being done, given as we left the Garden of Eden, was when we gained the knowledge of good and evil.

Tom: And it's, then we end up entering this final vagina and essentially discovering the universe.

Phil: Yeah, being born and then going into a painful world.

Phil: Yeah, because everyone you interact with, they're like, oh, thank you.

Phil: Hey, come and punch me and I'll give you some babies.

Phil: Oh, you've got my baby.

Phil: Take good care of him.

Phil: As you walk off the screen to go feed it to this thing.

Phil: So yeah, The Good Time Garden ends when you enter the vagina.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I mean, you could, you could nerd out on the meaning of this game endlessly, which is what my review might be.

Phil: Hopefully, I'll write something so annoyingly provocative that the, and then send it to the people that developed it that they'll actually do an interview with this.

Phil: I'd love to talk to these people because I think they have eminent amounts of style and artistry.

Phil: I'm down for whatever they want to produce from here on out.

Phil: Now, thank goodness you're here in The Good Time Garden.

Phil: Very similar in terms of gameplay, very similar in terms of style.

Phil: You wouldn't invest in, thank goodness you're here.

Phil: Like if someone was pitching that game to you, you probably wouldn't give them any money.

Phil: But it's selling well and they've done a fantastic job with it.

Phil: But from the new to the old, we talked a couple of weeks ago about Dear Esther.

Phil: And I brought to your attention to the fact that the game has had a new version released with commentary and graphics.

Phil: And you promised me that you'd go play it.

Phil: Have you gone and played it?

Tom: I have gone and played it.

Phil: You have?

Phil: Correct.

Phil: Was it worthwhile or did I waste your time?

Tom: I think it's every version of Dear Esther is a little bit worse than the previous one.

Phil: Oh, come on.

Tom: But it is still well worth playing without question.

Tom: And I went back because the Dear Esther commentary I read on air was not the Dear Esther commentary that I had in mind.

Tom: And I found, of course, we had our joint top games of the decade.

Tom: We also had our personal top games of the decade.

Tom: And that was where I found...

Phil: Hang on.

Phil: I should say that's at gameunder.net.

Phil: So if you go to gameunder.net and put in top you'll find what we're talking about.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: And it was in the personal commentary that I found the thoughts on the game that I had in mind when we were talking about it.

Tom: And I read a few other things.

Tom: So before we talk about Dear Esther, I just want to say it was a fascinating experience going back and reading the personal top content as opposed to the joint one, where I'm combining your thoughts and my thoughts on games.

Tom: Basically, an agreed upon description, right?

Phil: Oh, okay.

Tom: Whereas the personal thoughts are my own thoughts, and I haven't read any of my games writing.

Tom: Since I wrote it, because there was no need to go back to it.

Tom: But reading it, particularly, I think, this era of my writing about games, when I'm not doing it to learn how to proofread, edit, and learn a few things about writing.

Tom: But just out of fun, I think is, was a mind-blowing experience, because I'm reading it, and the whole time I'm thinking, what the fuck is going on in this person's head?

Tom: There is so much density to what is written, and you'll read one paragraph that's talking about this one thing and it'll have references to ten different things in it, that somehow form a coherent thought.

Phil: Coherent?

Phil: Look, as your co-host and friend for well over years, yeah, I could have told you this.

Phil: Density, you have no problem with, you know.

Phil: And I think perhaps, you know, over the years, you have developed the ability to be just as insightful without the density, or basically, I forget what the word is, but basically, you distillate.

Phil: All that density is distillated, and then we only end up with the end result.

Phil: And yeah, both are good, but yeah, you're a deep thinker, man.

Phil: And that was certainly present in your writing at that time, and well before that as well.

Tom: I think the direction of the writing has been to become progressively more and more dense, and the direction of the podcast content has been in the opposite direction, I would say.

Tom: Yes, yeah, yeah.

Tom: Which I think is the way to do it.

Tom: because if you're reading something, you have time to go back to parts of it easily.

Phil: Right.

Tom: As opposed to if you're listening to something.

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: Yep, I agree with that.

Phil: And yeah, so that's good.

Phil: So now back to the actual impressions.

Phil: Did you go through any of the commentary type stuff?

Tom: Yes, I did.

Tom: I played both the game as is, and also went through all of the commentary.

Phil: Okay, all of the commentary?

Phil: All of it.

Phil: Okay, well, all right.

Phil: Well, this is your review or your show.

Phil: So you just go through it however you want.

Phil: I'm really interested in what you learnt from the commentary, but you tell me about that in your own time.

Tom: Well, I think the first thing to say is when we get around to, which we probably never will because logically, games would have to stop for this to make any sense.

Tom: When we got around to get around to making a top games of all time list, this would definitely be a nomination on my end.

Tom: And I think time has proven it to be, I would argue, a contender for best indie game, of all time.

Tom: I think the way it came into existence fills everything you'd want from an indie game.

Tom: And there aren't any that could really do that because it's completely experimental, yet it came about in the authentic games community.

Tom: It didn't come out of academia.

Tom: It didn't come out of a publisher supporting them.

Tom: It came out of people making a half-life mod, and it gained all its traction in the half-life modding community.

Tom: It's completely grassroots, yet it was completely unlike anything else that that community had made.

Tom: And I don't think there's any examples of indie games, certainly not early on in the existence of indie games, that would fulfill that.

Tom: I think you could get games that might have had a similar sort of start in the early years of normal game development, but in its era, I think it's a one-of-a-kind thing, and that makes it, I think, a contender for best indie game of all time.

Phil: Yeah, and kudos to Valve for that, and kudos first to id Software, which gave them the code that the Valve engine was built on.

Phil: I remember reading in John Romero's autobiography, where basically they met with Gabe Newell before Valve had formed, and basically said, well, here's the code for Doom, and Quake, go ahead and, yeah, fine, here you go.

Phil: You know, we're coders, whatever, here you go.

Phil: Good luck with it.

Phil: So with that generous spirit, you know, you see all of the things that came out of it.

Phil: What about, yeah, I guess it's not really indie.

Phil: I was thinking about SOCOM and other games that have come out of the Source engine.

Tom: Isn't SOCOM the PSgame?

Phil: Sorry, I didn't mean SOCOM.

Phil: You know what I'm talking about.

Tom: Counter-Strike?

Phil: Counter-Strike, sorry, yes.

Tom: That did begin as a mod, didn't it?

Tom: I'm pretty sure it did.

Phil: Yeah, it did.

Phil: But I don't think it's in, yeah, okay.

Phil: And then if you think about it, Dota.

Phil: I mean, Dota was something that, the original Dota, not Dota was something that was generated independently as well.

Phil: So I'm, you know, like this is being a real pedant.

Phil: But I think there's probably other things that came up out of the Source engine maybe before Dear Esther.

Phil: That was in that Indie space that, you know, came out of mods.

Phil: And the only reason I thought about that was our earlier discussion of Doom, you know, in all the wads that came out of that, that turned out to be real games as well.

Phil: But, you know, I'm not saying that to lessen what you're saying.

Phil: I'm just saying, you know.

Tom: I think it's an important point to bring up because people do sort of act that Indie games didn't exist before the era of Dear Esther.

Phil: Right, yeah.

Tom: When they clearly did.

Phil: Yeah, thank you.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: But the thing that sets Dear Esther apart is not just that it followed a similar track to what those games did.

Tom: It's that it was a game unlike anything else that had been made at that point.

Tom: Or at least there were some games that were pretty similar at that time, but it's the one at least that gained the most traction and did so through the same routes that Counter-Strike and other games that gained such traction followed.

Tom: Whereas Counter-Strike and Dota Counter-Strike is arguably the best online first-person shooter of all time, but there were other first-person shooters that were online at that time too, if that makes sense.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Now, back to my review of Dear Esther a couple of episodes ago, I thought that Dear Esther was basically...

Phil: Now, just roll with me here.

Phil: Like, you know, and I said, like in Half-Life there's a part where you don't have any vehicles and you're just walking up the English coast amongst the heather on your way ultimately to a bridge that you have to cross, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And you crash your car at some point, it runs out of petrol or whatever.

Phil: And I've always said that, like, that was the best part of Half-Life for me, was just this part where I got to walk along the English countryside.

Phil: There was no enemies for me to have to worry about.

Phil: It was just a point where I could really just enjoy being in the environment and just be walking and exploring on my own and looking around on my own.

Phil: And in my review of Dear Esther, I said that, you know, again, another Source Engine game, that basically you could say that Dear Esther was an extrapolation of that with an added narrative.

Phil: So, but that's again, not taking away from Dear Esther.

Phil: I'm just saying that...

Tom: And that's an element within a game, though, as opposed to a game.

Phil: An element within a game, only minutes of a game.

Phil: But, and who knows if the people that made Dear Esther have even played Half-Life or experienced that.

Phil: But I played it and it's like that, that to me was the most deeply moving part of Half-Life out of everything.

Phil: It wasn't the part where I was shooting or driving or talking to anyone or had any narrative.

Phil: It was just like, hey, you know, this is kind of cool.

Phil: This is a pre-modern VR experience of being in a different place and feeling like I'm in that place.

Tom: The other thing that I thought was interesting going back to it after so long was one of the things that always annoyed me about The Game was the aesthetic of the writing, where it's very much copying a lot of modernist writing.

Tom: But to myself, to me at the time, I didn't think it was really copying the style of modest writing for any actual point.

Tom: It felt very much like copying aesthetic, which is based on using very over-the-top stylistic choices, would be one way to put it.

Tom: But it does that to give you a feeling or express a specific thing.

Tom: Whereas I didn't really get that from the writing when I played it the first two times.

Tom: But going back to it, I think the problem was me and not the writing.

Tom: There's certainly things I can criticize the writing for, but I don't think I can criticize it for that.

Tom: because when I was playing it, the thing that I think moved me the most, which was not unlike your experience, was to me, it was like going on a walk through the countryside or wherever.

Tom: And you're just thinking the whole time you're walking about whatever comes into your head, right?

Tom: But listening to the commentary, which I didn't really interpret it as, it makes sense, like it had that feeling sort of, but because I had my own interpretation of it, the two didn't really go together.

Tom: Hearing them talk about it in the commentary was, they wanted it to be like a dream or a unconscious experience.

Tom: And then the style of the writing and the way that it worked started to make a lot more sense.

Tom: So in simulating a dream like experience, if I took it like that, then I couldn't really have the same criticism that I had of the writing originally.

Tom: So for all of the people who complain about pretentiousness in art, and a lot of people complain about that in Dear Esther, you always have to consider that if you're going to be willing to accuse something of being full of shit, because you can't see that it is achieving what you think it is meant to be achieving, you have to consider that you also, you need to have the humbleness if you're going to accuse someone of that, to also consider that maybe you're the person who is full of shit and you're missing something actually.

Phil: You know, that's really mature of you to say that, because I think of the two of us when we go back and look at criticism of narrative and writing, you know, you've always been very robust in your criticism of it, and I've always been like, well, you know, we can only do what we can do, you know.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: We're not all Shakespeare.

Phil: We're not all, you know, and you're probably like, oh, Shakespeare's a hack.

Phil: You know, but I think what would this game be if they took away the narrative and instead the narrative was delivered sparsely and sparingly by a voice that you hear that's inside your head?

Phil: Like, what do you think about that?

Phil: Like, if you were to walk, you know, like, if only you got commentary every to minutes, and it's just a few sparing statements as opposed to what we...

Tom: Well, the original mod is actually more sparse in the amount of narration it contains.

Tom: Each iteration of Dear Esther has added a little bit more narration.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: So they got that guy back.

Tom: Yes, they did.

Phil: Wow.

Phil: I can imagine that call to the guy, who is probably a friend working for free.

Tom: No, this was one of the professionals they hired.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Possibly the only one, I think.

Phil: Do you know, in the commentary, did they say what other work he did?

Tom: I don't think they did.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: But yeah, it'd be like...

Phil: If I was the voice actor getting that call about, seriously, so this game is like, okay, so this thing that I did once for like two hours, seriously, okay, hey, as long as you're paying, sure, I'll turn up and do my dear Esther, you know.

Phil: Okay, but the voice acting, you cannot say that the voice acting job in this game does it any favors.

Tom: You think he did a poor performance?

Phil: I think it's a bit overwrought and distracting.

Tom: I think the writing is overwrought as well.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, the writing is overwrought and distracting, you know.

Phil: Anyway, I just think less strokes, I'll take the Japanese approach.

Phil: I think, you know, less strokes, less words would have serviced this game better without, I mean, you get, you get what happened with very few cues in this game.

Phil: But in any case, so what, what?

Tom: That's why I've always said my favorite is the original mod.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So in the commentary, was there anything else that came up that was particularly elucidating?

Tom: I think another interesting thing in the commentary, which we were just talking about, is the concept of pretentiousness.

Tom: Now, if you listen to the commentary, you cannot say that a single thing they set out to do is not in the game.

Tom: There's no question.

Tom: Everything they set out to do is there.

Tom: You can debate on how well whatever was achieved, but you can't say that they're trying to do something, that they're pretending to do something that they're not actually doing.

Tom: Which is the whole basis of pretension.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: And I think the one thing that amused me most in the commentary was, obviously, it's a game about grief.

Tom: And in the end of the game, you essentially climb up a ladder on a radio tower, and you jump off this tower to commit suicide, but at the last second before you die, you turn into a bird and fly off, right?

Phil: A seagull, in fact.

Tom: And so they were talking about how the game is about coming to terms with and escaping grief, which to me personally is a completely insane and incomprehensible concept.

Tom: I can understand the idea of accepting grief, but I'm not sure how it is possible to escape grief on any level.

Tom: If you can escape feelings like that, I don't think it would qualify as grief.

Tom: What's your thinking?

Phil: I think grief is inescapable from my own personal experience.

Phil: It only gets worse, especially if you're a thoughtful person, and I'll pat myself on the back for that.

Phil: But yeah, if you're a deep thinker, and you've lost someone that's in an integral part of your life, there's no recovery from that.

Phil: And you know, perhaps that's why they had him commit suicide, because that was the only way that he could escape from his grief.

Tom: But then, if you think about it like a dream, and unless he's dead, of course, which still fits the same thing, then he's going to wake up from it.

Tom: So the escape was only within the dream.

Tom: So maybe it still isn't as absurd as it seems on the face of it.

Phil: Yeah, so from my perspective, I saw from the point that you jumped off the tower and became a seagull, that that was all after life after that point.

Tom: I think that's a reasonable interpretation.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: The one other thing I think we have to bring up is the other great thing about Dear Esther is one of the top indie games of the decade.

Tom: And for the record, it did not make my personal list because it was ineligible due to it being a remake of a game that came out before the s.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: That makes sense.

Tom: But the whole debate over what a game is and whether Dear Esther qualifies as a game, I think, typifies the mind numbing stupidity of the gaming community at times.

Tom: And the bizarre hypocrisy of it too, because bear in mind, this is a community that lost shit when Roger Ebert said games were not art.

Tom: But at the same time, and simultaneously wants to exclude one of the most artistically complex games around, because it doesn't fit a totally unjustifiable and absurd definition of games that they have in their head.

Phil: Oh, it's idiotic.

Phil: And I'll put up my hand and say, I was an idiot when this game came out.

Phil: I mean, if it came out before the s, we're talking a long time ago.

Phil: It's like years ago at this point.

Phil: But yeah, it's idiotic.

Phil: If it is an interactive digital experience, it's a game, right?

Phil: Like that's a video game.

Phil: You're interacting with it.

Phil: And you could say, oh, well, Pong's not a game or Freeway's not a game, or a thousand different Atari games are not a game.

Phil: because they don't fit into the current genre definition.

Phil: You know, that's idiotic.

Phil: It's stupid.

Phil: It's in, yeah, as you said, self-loathing at a point where everyone was criticizing Roger Ebert, and then casting the first stone themselves at a thoughtful, interactive, artistic, you know, thing.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: The reason I bring that up is, here's the thing with games definitions.

Tom: Defining what a game is.

Tom: If you think about trying to define what a game is, that fits all the categories of things that we would generally call a game, is actually an incredibly difficult and ridiculous thing that requires a serious philosophy.

Tom: And most philosophers have failed to come up with definitions of games that actually encapsulate everything that people generally agree upon as being games.

Tom: So, when you come up to a situation like this, my solution to the problem is basically, a game is something that most people agree is a game.

Tom: Right?

Tom: So, in this context, we have the gatekeepers of what is a game, which is the people who are most interested, in this case, video game, a specific sort of game, which is people who are most interested in it.

Tom: And they have something that comes out in an era where there's this whole broader cultural debate as games become a more mainstream thing, about the importance and the significance of games, and that they're an important part of the artistic landscape.

Tom: And the very same people, and we're not doing stereotypes here.

Tom: We were both in the culture at the time, and it is literally the same people.

Tom: It's journalists who hold these two views, and people in game communities and people we know, concluding, let's cut out a whole section of expression in games, because it makes us think and have to consider things, essentially.

Tom: It's just mind-numbingly idiotic.

Phil: Yeah, and that goes across delivery platforms as well.

Phil: Like, you know, we cannot have too much arrogance about excluding mobile games, for example.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah, I think we need to be a big tent party, as they say in America, and if someone wants to say they're a game, until they've proven otherwise, they're a game.

Phil: You know, and I think my definition is pretty succinct.

Phil: If it's an interactive, digital experience, you know, that's a game.

Tom: Specifically a video game.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: You know, now you could say, oh, well, changing the channel on the TV is an interactive digital experience.

Phil: It's like, well, that's not what I mean.

Tom: That's why I say it's actually a serious philosophical endeavor to try and define game.

Tom: So unless we're going to do that seriously, which no one within the games community does, the best thing we can come up with is just a generally agreed upon concept.

Tom: If you say game, I broadly speaking know what you mean and vice versa.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So your appreciation for Dear Esther was increased by playing the latest iteration of it.

Phil: Is that fair to say?

Tom: I think it increases each time I play it.

Tom: While simultaneously, I think every iteration of Dear Esther is worse than the previous one.

Phil: That's not fair.

Phil: That's not fair.

Tom: But I think that is actually high praise because it demonstrates how good the actual game is.

Phil: The original essence of it, right?

Tom: That's right.

Phil: But you know, hey, this is consistent with you, man.

Phil: You're out there saying the original Doom is better than this brilliant remaster of it.

Tom: Absolutely is.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Hey, and I'm not opposed to that.

Phil: I mean, like this has happened with me with other games as well, where they'll come out with the remastering of it or whatever.

Phil: And I'm like, nah, the original is still good.

Phil: So anything else on Dear Esther before we close out the show with an email for you?

Tom: I think that probably covers it.

Tom: I think the only other thing I would add would be to actually talk about a different walking simulator briefly, because there's not a huge amount that needs to be said about it.

Tom: But it was interesting.

Phil: Don't say gone home.

Tom: No, not gone home.

Phil: OK.

Tom: I wanted to follow up Dear Esther with a very recent walking simulator.

Tom: So I played Pools, which came out in April this year.

Phil: Pools?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Like P-O-O-L-S?

Tom: That's right, as in swimming pools.

Phil: OK.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Not a bad name for a game.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: It's inspired by the whole Backroom's Internet law.

Tom: And you're essentially wandering around otherworldly buildings that appear at first to be swimming pools.

Tom: And it's until the end, a completely narratively abstract experience.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Let's not stu...

Phil: Don't...

Phil: hey, don't...

Phil: until the end, stuff, spoil it, all right?

Tom: I'm not going to make any concrete statements on the ending.

Tom: Other than that, I enjoyed the abstract narrative more than I enjoyed the non-abstract narrative.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So it's a walking simulator that's come out this year.

Phil: It'd be fascinating to see what a take on the walking simulator would be.

Tom: I recommend if you are able to play it some way, do so.

Tom: Then I think it's a very interesting experience to see that all these years later, walking simulators are still a thing and continue to grow and change over time.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I mean, it's got...

Phil: It's getting overwhelming reviews.

Phil: It's got no user interface, no dialogue, no background music.

Phil: So, yeah, it seems like a completely immersive experience that I look forward to giving a try.

Phil: I'll write that down in my games.

Tom: Hang on a minute.

Tom: I've got to rate...

Tom: I'm sorry to say, I forgot to rate several games in this show.

Tom: So we're going to do...

Phil: We're going to...

Phil: I'm going to take minutes of my life by me editing in a dice roll sound.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: Four times, I think.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, keep in mind, every time you roll the die, you're robbing me of three minutes of life.

Tom: It's well worth it.

Phil: Which is the ultimate game.

Tom: It's well worth it.

Tom: So the first game I've got to rate is...

Tom: Is Thank Goodness You're Here.

Phil: Doom and

Tom: Oh, no.

Tom: That's...

Tom: No, no.

Phil: I haven't finished them yet.

Tom: Let's do it.

Tom: No, no.

Tom: I'm going to play them more.

Phil: Work up the wrist.

Tom: I'm going to play them more.

Phil: Thank Goodness You're Here?

Tom: Yeah, Thank Goodness You're Here.

Tom: That receives a out of

Phil: Wrong.

Phil: The Good Time Garden.

Tom: That also receives a out of

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I give Thank Goodness You're Here a out of for style, and I'd give The Good Time Garden a out of for being perverse.

Tom: I'd also give it a out of for style, too.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And Dear Esther?

Tom: Dear Esther, the latest remake.

Tom: And I should also add, unlike the Braid remake, the Dear Esther remake made a lot of sense because they ported it to the Unity engine so that it could be released on consoles.

Tom: So there was a good reason for it to exist, and I think it's only $which is a price point that I think would have made a lot more sense for the Braid remake as well.

Phil: Well, absolutely, you're right on that.

Phil: And also, if you own Dear Esther on Steam, you'll get the upgrade for free.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: Whereas you don't get the Braid remake for free.

Phil: And I love that generosity.

Phil: Okay, so let's give it a score.

Tom: And if we did, we would have been talking about it, because I would have played a little bit of it.

Tom: And we would have been saying more positive things than solely, why does this exist?

Tom: And it sold like shit.

Phil: Yeah, well, if they had released it, given it all to the same, given it the original people for free, we would have generated a buzz, right?

Tom: I think so.

Tom: I think Gargan, if he got it for free, he would have gone back to it for sure.

Phil: Oh, and generated new sales.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay, give it a score, man.

Tom: Four out of ten.

Tom: We've rolled three four out of tens in a row.

Phil: Accumulative twelve out of ten, which is what I'd give this podcast.

Phil: What value and quality we've gotten.

Phil: Now, let's close it out with Phil's questions for time.

Tom: No, no, no, you've forgotten Pools.

Tom: We've got to give Pools a rating.

Tom: You've got three more minutes of your life to waste.

Tom: Pools breaks the trend.

Tom: It gets a nine out of ten.

Phil: Wow, high praise for Pools.

Tom: That is a huge score.

Phil: I give that, Dear Esther, my score for Dear Esther is nine out of ten.

Tom: Okay?

Phil: Actually, I'll give it a ten.

Phil: I'll give it a ten out of ten.

Phil: How would I do anything different?

Phil: It was good.

Phil: It was good.

Phil: Okay, so here's your question.

Phil: And Kami from London writes, now concentrate your mind, Tom.

Phil: Slow it down and get ready for the question.

Phil: You too, listeners at home, how would you answer this question?

Phil: If given the choice in a game, do you choose graphical performance?

Phil: I'm sorry.

Phil: Do you choose performance or graphics quality?

Tom: So this is the-

Phil: Given the choice in the game, do you choose performance or graphics quality?

Tom: I think it depends on the game, but most of the time, I will choose performance.

Tom: In the past, I would have chosen graphics, but these days, I would go with performance most of the time.

Phil: If I'm playing a competitive game online, I would choose performance.

Phil: In every other case, I'm choosing graphics quality.

Phil: And that's probably just because I've got a new PC.

Tom: Then hopefully, you're able to choose both most of the time.

Phil: I am.

Phil: Yeah, most of the time I am.

Phil: With that, thanks for listening to Game Under Podcast.

Phil: You can visit our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: I've recently reviewed some hardware.

Phil: Did you get a chance to have a look at that review, Tom?

Tom: I looked at the picture of it.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that's a good start.

Phil: We'll talk more about it perhaps next episode.

Phil: We've been doing this since so there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website, reviews, all sorts of things at gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, just use the comment section from the front page for this episode.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: According to Audacity, I can record another hours and minutes.

Phil: So we probably only have another shows in us.

Tom: Unless you cough up the money for Phil to buy a new hard drive.

Phil: That's exactly right.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Phil: Thank you.

Tom: When I'm cleaning windows.

Game Under Podcast 158

Stream below or right-click and download the mp3. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:16 Intro

0:01:10 Olympic Coverage

0:01:32 Chumpy Pullen Obituary

0:05:18 Best Shark Games

0:07:22 Olypic Skateboarding

0:08:49 News - Braid Remaster Sells Poorly

0:23:53 News - Game Informer Shuts Down

0:29:17 News - The PS4 Problem

0:41:25 What Playing - A Plague Tale Innocence

0:57:09 What Playing - Baldur's Gate 3

0:57:25 Boss Battles

1:00:44 How it All Started - Halo, GTA, Tekken

1:13:35 Sky Children of Light Olympics

1:18:26 Email

Transcript
WEBVTT

Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers, and I'm joined for the first time by Kamala Harris.

Phil: No, no, it's Kamala, don't be racist.

Phil: If you say Kamala, you're racist and sexist.

Phil: It's Kamala.

Tom: How are you sexist?

Tom: I understand the potential racism angle.

Phil: Well, any criticism of a female candidate is sexist.

Tom: I think it's racist to assume that Kamala is a criticism.

Phil: Well, I think, I'm just telling you what people are saying.

Phil: This episode of The Game Under Podcast has gotten off to a contentious start.

Phil: Look, I didn't start this, all right?

Phil: I'm just sitting here pleasantly, waiting for the show to start, watching the Olympics.

Phil: Have you been watching the Olympics from France?

Tom: I have been watching the Olympics.

Phil: Quite a bit?

Tom: Reasonable amount, I'd say.

Phil: Yeah, I'd say I've been partaking a reasonable amount.

Tom: I watched the women's skateboarding and some of the men's, but not the final in the men's.

Phil: And how is Australia doing?

Tom: I think Australia won gold in both.

Phil: But it wouldn't be a Game Under show without us talking about the Olympics.

Phil: It was just years ago, I know, in episode

Phil: And I recently listened to it because we were talking about what Edith Finch lies, Dear Esther?

Phil: No, Dear Esther.

Phil: We're talking about Dear Esther.

Phil: And we happened to be talking about Chumpton Pullen, one of the Australian skateboarders at the time.

Phil: And I don't know what long convoluted story you were going into about him.

Phil: But we did spend an inordinate amount of time talking about him.

Phil: I think mostly because of his name, Chumpee Tuggin or Chumpee Pullen or...

Phil: What's his name?

Tom: Chumpee Pullen.

Phil: Chumpee Pullen, yeah.

Phil: So how is he doing in skateboarding this year?

Tom: He doesn't skateboard.

Tom: He snowboarded before his untimely death.

Phil: Untimely death?

Tom: Correct.

Phil: Okay, did this happen at this Olympics or?

Tom: This happened in I believe.

Phil: Okay, but in he was in the Olympics, so he couldn't have been an elderly fellow.

Tom: No, I believe he was when he died.

Phil: That's too young.

Tom: We can actually say that he was young when he died.

Phil: Was it snowboard related?

Tom: It was not snowboard related.

Phil: Shark bite, shark related.

Tom: That's close, but it was not shark related.

Phil: That's close.

Phil: Octopus.

Tom: No.

Phil: Sting ray, like that other fellow who died.

Tom: No.

Phil: Steve Harvey?

Phil: Steve Irwin.

Phil: Steve Irwin.

Tom: He died doing what he loved.

Phil: He did die doing what he loved, attacking a poor sting ray.

Phil: So Chumpy, I've got his name right, right?

Phil: Chumpy Pullen?

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: Okay, because I thought it was something different.

Phil: So Chumpy Pullen, come on, tell us, how did he die?

Tom: I just want to mention one of his other achievements outside of snowboarding.

Tom: He apparently was the lead singer in a reggae band named Love Charlie.

Phil: Okay, that's not a good name for a reggae band.

Tom: No, it's a great open, it's a great life achievement until you see the name of the band.

Phil: I think I have more respect for people who are in scar bands, you know, because you get the horns, it takes a lot more effort, I feel.

Tom: Bear in mind he was a winter Olympian, so he's at least gone for a summer themed.

Phil: Yeah, well like the Jamaican, the Disney movie about the Jamaicans who go in the toboggan.

Phil: Cool runnings.

Tom: Bob Sleight, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, Bob Sleight, cool runnings.

Phil: It's incredible how I can only get % of this content actually correct and you know what I'm talking about.

Tom: That's why I'm here, essentially.

Phil: Yeah, break the suspense.

Phil: How did Chumpy die?

Tom: He drowned on the coast, on the Gold Coast, rather.

Phil: Did they find the body?

Phil: Or is this like a Herald Horde situation?

Tom: Yep, they found the body and attempted resuscitation, but failed.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: And he is believed to have been spearfishing alone.

Phil: Whoa, well that's karma for you, isn't it?

Tom: It is, so for all we know, an octopus may actually have drowned him.

Phil: And rightfully so.

Phil: I mean spearfishing.

Phil: I didn't even know that that was legal.

Tom: I think Steve Irwin knows a thing or two about spearfishing as well.

Phil: It was hardly fair.

Phil: It's hardly fair to go into their waters with a speargun.

Phil: Imagine if a shark turned up at your front door with a speargun.

Tom: I think that wouldn't be much of a threat.

Phil: Not on land.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: I was thinking again last night about doing a feature on the best shark games ever.

Tom: What are the best shark games ever?

Phil: Well, fishing derby for the Atari

Phil: I mean, at first you might think that you're playing against another opponent in a fishing competition.

Phil: Who can catch the most fish?

Phil: Who can catch fish the fastest?

Phil: But in fact, you're both fighting against a large, well-animated shark that juts across the screen and robs you of your catch just as you're about to pull it up to shore.

Phil: So that one's pretty good.

Tom: I think what you're describing is akin to a human being spearfishing with a speargun underwater.

Tom: I think that's pretty unfair of the shark to be eating already partially captured fish.

Phil: Partially captured?

Phil: Well, they're not technically caught until they break through the surface.

Phil: There was another game that had a shark gun in it.

Phil: I don't know if you remember that one.

Phil: It was a very funny game, actually.

Phil: But where you actually were on land, you fire a gun and a shark, wherever the thing lands, a shark comes up and eats the person.

Tom: That was an RTS of some sort, was it?

Tom: No, no.

Phil: It was a wonderful first-person shooter for PC and the original Xbox that was made by a company.

Phil: I'll have to refer back to it later, but that's another good shark game.

Phil: Do you have any shark?

Tom: I'm sure there was also, it's Armed and Dangerous, isn't it?

Phil: Yeah, that's it.

Phil: Armed and Dangerous wasn't an RTS.

Tom: Was that a first-person shooter?

Tom: Good.

Phil: A third-person shooter.

Tom: That's what I thought, third-person.

Phil: You played that game?

Tom: No, unfortunately not.

Tom: I think I had a demo of it and couldn't get it to work.

Phil: Yeah, it was very British funny.

Phil: It was published by LucasArts and developed by Planet Moon, who was one of my favorite developers.

Phil: They didn't go on to do much better, much more than that.

Tom: Speaking of Brits, before we move on from the Olympics, I'd just like to add we were talking about the skateboarding.

Tom: One thing I found amusing about it was, the women's competition wasn't really women's competition so much as a female children competition.

Tom: Meanwhile, the men's competition featured a -year-old man.

Phil: What sport?

Tom: Skateboarding.

Phil: Skateboard, a -year-old man skateboarding?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: I was thinking about this also last night, because I heard that there was a -year-old athlete who was competing.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I was just thinking about the absolute sex orgy that the Olympic Village must be.

Phil: And I was like, you know what?

Phil: This guy is a creep, you know.

Phil: I'm not knowing anything about him personally.

Phil: But like, mate, you don't belong in the Olympic Village.

Phil: Let the young people have their sport, okay?

Phil: There's not going to be anyone else there who's over the age of like on the highest level.

Phil: And it's probably, you know, one of the golfers or something like that.

Phil: Creep.

Tom: So, when are we going to the Olympics?

Phil: Yes, well, let's see, Brisbane's I believe.

Tom: You're already there.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, I'm always just down the street.

Tom: Plotting out your route to the Olympic Village.

Phil: So to speak, my route to the Olympic Village.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Indeed.

Phil: We have meandered long enough.

Phil: It's time for us to get into the news.

Phil: We've got three stories this week.

Phil: Story number one, from Credit to Video Games Chronicle, Braid Anniversary Edition has sold like dog-****** creator Jonathan Blow says.

Phil: Now, we're...

Phil: I don't think either one of us are fans of Joe Blow, but we have followed him over the years.

Phil: His premier first game was Braid, of course.

Tom: I thought Braid was good.

Tom: And my position on Braid, I think, is the opposite of the majority view of Braid, where I think the gameplay was excellent with some moments of genius level design and everything else about the game was horrible.

Tom: Although I think the music was actually good too.

Phil: We'll get to that.

Phil: So the actual story, Braid Anniversary Edition, it was released on May th and it was a remaster.

Phil: They redid the art of the original, had several new features, a new interactive commentary track, which I think is pretty cool, and over hours of commentary.

Phil: So someone, a YouTube channel, BlowFan, has put together, this was hilarious, it's a montage of clips from Blow's Twitch channel, in which he gets progressively more negative about the game sales.

Phil: You've got to see this.

Phil: In the first clip, recorded six days after the game sale, Blow was unsure at how well the game had performed, saying, it's a little too early to judge.

Phil: I'll put it this way, we're definitely not sure.

Phil: It's not like we sold a million copies on day one, which is what you'd expect.

Phil: It's a remaster, right?

Phil: So you don't expect it to be like a new game in terms of hype level.

Phil: But, you know, we'll see where it lands.

Phil: In the second clip, days later, he was asked if the game sold well.

Phil: No, it sold horribly, he replied.

Phil: Well, it depends what your standards are.

Phil: If you compare it to nostalgic things, like a Jeff Minter game that's on Steam or Atari it sold better than all of those.

Phil: But it still sold like dog shit compared to what we need to make for the company to survive.

Phil: The future is uncertain.

Phil: Let's put it that way, it hasn't been good.

Phil: It hasn't been good.

Phil: A third clip, recorded days after the release, showed Blow again being asked if he was happy with the sales.

Phil: No, they've been terrible, utterly terrible.

Phil: And in the final clip, days after release, Blow was asked by a viewer about a new programming language he's been working on and plans to release it at some point in the future.

Phil: When asked how many people were working full time on the compiler for Jai, Blow replied, none.

Phil: Because we can't afford to pay anyone because the sales are bad.

Phil: So it's quite a progression.

Phil: Joe Blow did go on to do Witness and that's basically it, so far as I know, from a video game perspective.

Tom: What happened to the money they would have made on Braid and the Witness?

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Well, see, the way to do it these days is basically you've got a lot of these places, like the guy that does Stardew Valley, is a one-man shop.

Phil: He's got, I think, about seven people that help him out with music and publicity and all the rest of it.

Phil: But I think some of these creators get into this mindset of, okay, I've made it, so now I'm going to go hire all these people, programmers, writers, all the rest of it, and it's not sustainable.

Phil: It sounds like if after this remaster, which they've obviously done a lot of work for, had all new art, you know, hours of commentary.

Phil: It was received critically well.

Phil: It had Metacritic scores of and for the PlayStation and Xbox Series X versions, which you'd expect, because this was native to Xbox.

Phil: It's sort of an Xbox game when you think about it.

Phil: But yeah, I mean, it sounds like he bet, and he bet hard on this remaster, for bringing in tons of money, and it obviously didn't.

Tom: How did they spend so much money on the remaster, is my other question?

Phil: It's not so much the money that they spent on the remaster, it's just the money they've spent sustaining a studio that hasn't released a game for.

Phil: It must, Witness has to have come out more than five years ago at this point.

Phil: I think that basically he was relying on this brave re-release for a cash injection, obviously, because at this point he's saying, there's no one working full time on this stuff because we can't afford to pay anyone.

Phil: And maybe it's not like a business or something, maybe it's more of a collective of people, and these people were basically saying, oh, well, I'll do the work, and then when we have massive success, then you can pay me, and then it hasn't come through.

Phil: And so obviously taking its emotional toll as things haven't improved.

Phil: So you were a fan of Brave?

Phil: Because I'll just tell you, the consensus on the Internet, right?

Phil: This Brave originally was the first game in Xbox's Summer of Games, where Xbox was releasing independent games that were downloadable on its Xbox Arcade service, and this was new to the console world, and I think everyone bought it just because of the novelty of it, and it was the hype, and it was like, wow, this is going to bring in...

Phil: And it really did bring indie games into a new era, and I would say can be credited for at least, if not inspiring, starting the independent game development movement, because people saw, hey, I don't need a publisher, I can make a small game, and as long as it's good and creative, I can have tremendous success with it, which is what Brave had because everyone went out and bought it.

Phil: Based on the community at the VG Press, not a lot of people actually liked the game or stuck with it through to the end.

Phil: You are the exception to that, though.

Tom: I would have thought a lot of people, journalists anyway, would have finished it.

Tom: It's pretty short.

Phil: Oh, for sure, because it won Game of the Year on several different outlets.

Phil: I remember that.

Phil: It's always been a critically acclaimed game.

Phil: Maybe you can describe it for people who haven't played it.

Tom: It's basically a D platformer slash puzzle game where to be able to platform through the environment, you need to fast forward and rewind elements of the game environment and the movement of enemies.

Phil: And it has a narrative as well, which is kind of-

Tom: You could call it a narrative.

Phil: Yeah, it had a weepy narrative behind it.

Phil: Think about a guy who lost his girlfriend or something like that, right?

Tom: Or was designing the nuclear bomb.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Well, and basically, I think that the story was kind of like a share, if I could turn back time, because the platforming element where you could turn back time, and the guys are regretful about things he said and done, it's a bit weepy, but it's certainly not a bad game by any measure.

Phil: I just don't think it was very popular to like Braid and then it's become very popular to not like Braid.

Tom: I think I am ever the contrarian, because before I played Braid, I was very much anti-Braid, and it's pretty funny to see the shift in the winds.

Tom: But as someone who was a Braid doubter, I do have to question some of the criticism that I've seen around the Internet these days.

Tom: For instance, I saw on the VG Press, someone comment that the time puzzle mechanics were already done in Prince of Persia, Sands of Time, which is just a comically ridiculous statement.

Tom: I mean, in a literal sense, you could say they were done in Prince of Persia, Sands of Time, but there were no intricate puzzles like there were in Braid.

Phil: No, so certainly Sands of Time had a rewind function, which enabled you to, if you had made an error, rewind to the gameplay back.

Phil: Okay, that's fine.

Phil: I mean, a lot of car games have that now too, but that's not solving a puzzle, that's just rewinding the game.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: Driver San Francisco has already done it.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Tom: Braid's nothing.

Phil: But in Braid, it was actually required.

Phil: It wasn't just like...

Tom: And it was part of very complicated puzzles.

Tom: It wasn't just rewind, you mistimed your jump.

Phil: And I think that's where I fell off the game because I'm not a complicated puzzle kind of guy.

Phil: But I probably would have stuck with the game.

Phil: How long do you think the game is?

Tom: Only a few hours, depending on how quickly you can solve puzzles.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, which is always the case, you know.

Tom: So maybe hours for you.

Phil: Yeah, hours to years, depending on.

Phil: But you know, I don't think that the sales has been a surprise.

Phil: I certainly didn't know that the game had come out.

Tom: Nor did I.

Phil: Clearly, it should have been marketed, it could have been marketed better.

Phil: If I were doing it, and it's easy to play Armchair Developer, since it was the first game to come out on Xbox's Summer of Arcade, this is a perfect match to launch on Game Pass.

Tom: I would also add, I'm not sure who it's really for, because in my opinion anyway, the best thing about Braid is the gameplay, but the puzzles are very, very linear.

Tom: There was really only one or two puzzles that allowed for some creativity in how you could solve them.

Tom: So there's essentially absolutely no reason to replay the game from a gameplay perspective, and aesthetically, there isn't really much to remaster about.

Tom: The D weird drawing nature of the graphics mean, not much is going to be added to it, even if they have redone all the artwork.

Tom: So it seems like not a particularly good candidate to be remastered.

Phil: And then if you're not familiar, okay, so if you're familiar with the game, you've already played it, so why would you play it again?

Phil: Because it's a puzzle game, other than for nostalgia, and it's not a particularly nostalgic kind of game, right, in terms of, oh, I want to go back to that time and place.

Phil: And you're not going to go back because of the remastered artwork.

Phil: So now let's just say you don't know anything about the game.

Phil: If you don't know anything about the game, there certainly wasn't enough marketing around to support any reason why you would want to get it.

Phil: I mean, how many years?

Phil: It was the th or the th anniversary?

Tom: I hope it's not the th.

Phil: Well,

Phil:

Phil: So it was when it came out.

Phil: So I don't know what anniversary they're celebrating.

Phil: The th anniversary, right?

Tom: The Sweet re-release.

Phil: Sweet

Tom: Classic Sweet re-release.

Phil: In any case, look, I just think their best bet would have been to go on to Microsoft, have it launch on Game Pass.

Phil: It would have got a lot more marketing and buzz so that then for subsequent sales on Steam and on PlayStation people have at least heard of it and gone, oh yeah, I heard it talked about on that podcast or I saw someone else playing it, I can give it a go.

Phil: And it would have got some action with the streamers and all the rest of it with Microsoft's promotional money.

Phil: And they do get money per download on Game Pass.

Phil: It's not like they're giving the game away for free.

Phil: Microsoft has to pay for each download.

Phil: They don't obviously play for retail or probably anything close to it.

Phil: But in terms of exposure, that's what the initial braid benefited from.

Phil: So, yeah, so in any case, I don't think this is a big surprise, but I am looking forward to see what Joe Blow does next.

Phil: What did you think of Witness?

Phil: How far did you get into Witness?

Tom: Not very far.

Phil: Because Devators, it's one of his favorite games of all time.

Tom: And Gargons as well.

Phil: For me, as I've said before with this kind of game, I mean, once I got about three hours into it, I was basically on my phone the whole time, trying to find out how to get to the next level.

Phil: And at that point, you know, am I playing the game or is the game playing me?

Phil: You know, and it's just, you know, it's frustrating that I don't have that sort of mind to, or perhaps I don't have that sort of patience to sit there and contemplate how am I going to solve this puzzle?

Phil: It just, yeah, it just didn't work for me.

Phil: I respected the game.

Tom: I think the other thing is it's $

Phil: What, the bright anniversary?

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Oh yeah, no.

Tom: It's $and at the time it had a striking visual style, which I thought was hideously ugly, but it was certainly stood out from the sorts of games that were around at the time.

Tom: If you're coming to this as someone who didn't know anything about the original braid and you see this, you're seeing $for what appears to be any sort of D indie platformer.

Tom: So I think they needed to come up with some sort of marketing angle to make this work and certainly not sell it for $

Phil: Yeah, it becomes not an impulse buy at that point because, you know, Steam's telling me, I just got this thing, like I can get the remastered Tony Hawks and for $on Steam right now.

Phil: You know, like that is a lot of value for that kind of money.

Phil: Yeah, and there's a lot of other games I'd rather buy for $rather than revisit.

Phil: And guess what?

Phil: I still have my Xbox s.

Phil: I still have braid on it.

Phil: I can go back and play it at any time.

Phil: To the art style, I think at the time, a lot of people referred to it as hand drawn, but in retrospect, it looks pretty much like any web browser flash type game with the arms on pins type thing.

Tom: I think it was definitely more detailed than a lot of D platformers at the time.

Tom: It's just since then, we've had years of this style of game being produced ad nauseam.

Tom: So it no longer stands out like it did at the time.

Phil: So the game inside made by the people that did Limbo, that is basically a puzzle platformer with a wonderful art style.

Phil: I didn't have any problems with the puzzles in that at all.

Phil: Is that because they're dumb puzzles, or is it just because the game was so enjoyable that I was engaged with it to actually bother to solve the puzzles?

Tom: I think the puzzles inside are very rudimentary.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, that answers that.

Phil: Onto story

Phil: Game Informer shuts down.

Phil: Thousands of articles lost.

Phil: So Game Informer was a magazine in the United States.

Phil: It has closed after years of operation.

Phil: It closed abruptly.

Phil: The owner is GameStop.

Phil: So Game Informer basically was a free magazine you'd get when you went to a video game store called Funko Land.

Phil: Funko Land was eventually bought by GameStop, which is the same people that bought out EB Games as well.

Phil: And basically, the magazine turned into what was, you know, basically a catalog of advertisements to being a good editorial, you know, product.

Phil: By the s, the magazine was recognized as the fifth largest in the United States.

Phil: That's not fifth largest video game magazine.

Phil: That's the fifth largest circulation in the United States.

Phil: So considering that it beat out magazines like Time Magazine and Sports Illustrated, you know, it's just, it was an absolute juggernaut.

Phil: So they were basically all called in on a Friday and told, you're fired.

Phil: The website has been taken down.

Phil: So all of the content on their website is gone.

Phil: Yeah, so it, and it's just been a, you know, it's not shocking because it's probably more shocking that they lasted this long.

Phil: Because, for example, Sports Illustrated is no longer a magazine.

Phil: Time Magazine is no longer a magazine.

Phil: You know, they have websites, but there's no longer a physical presence.

Tom: But I think this includes the website, doesn't it?

Tom: I think the website is no longer.

Phil: It is gone.

Phil: It is gone.

Phil: So all the content is gone.

Phil: There are fans who are trying to use the Wayback Machine and other ways to get this back.

Phil: After years of business, I know that Noclip did a documentary.

Phil: Danny Dwyer's operation did a documentary about the archive that they have.

Phil: Because they've got every press release that's been released in the last years, every promotional item, every demo, they've got prototype games.

Phil: They've got pretty much almost every game that's been released physically up until they stop producing physical games.

Phil: And you just wonder where is that all gone?

Phil: I'm sure they were fired over Zoom or over Teams.

Phil: So maybe the staff after they got laid off, made sure that all that stuff had been scrolled away or knowing that this was inevitable.

Phil: I've been working towards archiving and getting that stuff off site.

Phil: But yeah, I just hope that those materials are saved and retained.

Phil: And then for the people, you know, like, they pretty much...

Phil: I feel bad that they were fired so abruptly, but they had to have seen this coming.

Tom: Can we blame this somehow on the pyramid scheme that occurred a few years ago?

Phil: Oh, the stock rigging type stuff.

Phil: No, I...

Phil: you know, if anything, it's probably...

Phil: just taking my love of this video game...

Phil: of video game magazines out of it.

Phil: I think that it's actually been corporate negligence that they hadn't been closed down earlier.

Tom: Well, that's what I was thinking is that maybe they hold pump and dump and the large number of people who kept pumping gave not a false sense of security, but the illusion that the company was not on the verge of bankruptcy.

Tom: And thus the magazine survived for a few years longer than it should have.

Phil: Should have.

Phil: Yeah, I agree.

Phil: Yeah, because apparently the CEO is under...

Phil: he's being sued.

Phil: He was...

Phil: it is funny, actually.

Phil: The CEO was the CEO of Bed Bath and Beyond.

Phil: And Bed Bath and Beyond stock was also subject to a pump and dump scheme.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So he's just gone from one to the other.

Phil: But yeah, it's it's it's not surprising.

Phil: I say, you know, more pump in, less dump in.

Tom: I would correct that, because the key to the pump and dump is you've got to remember to dump.

Tom: Well, that's the most important part of it.

Phil: Everybody dumps.

Phil: Yeah, like the kids book says.

Phil: So, you know, again, I'm not going to be all like, oh my god, slashing my wrists over this.

Phil: But you know, there was a time that Game Informer had a physical magazine in Australia, and there are fewer and fewer actual magazines available.

Phil: And I think magazines are really important for our culture, in our society.

Phil: Websites are kind of like newspapers, you know, they're ephemeral.

Phil: Whereas magazines can take the long look, and you can, you know, keep magazines, go back, look at them years later, and get a sense of what was going on at the time, by looking at the ads, and the words that are being used, and the images, and the technology, and all the rest of it.

Phil: So yeah, but I've belabored that point many times before.

Phil: So unless you've got something else to say, we'll go on to our third and final story.

Phil: This was an editorial piece in GameIndustry.biz, and it is GTA and the PlayStation problem.

Phil: So a phrase that is being thrown around the game industries a lot right now is survive until

Phil: And as you've seen many more layoffs this week, across gaming development and in hardware as well, I think Intel laid off people, incredibly.

Phil: And Bungie laid off like people as well.

Phil: So basically, what they're thinking is, because GTA is not going to come out on PlayStation that this might be finally what shifts people on to the current generation.

Phil: So the current generation has been going on for four years, and everyone's been referring to this in the industry as the PlayStation problem.

Phil: So in terms of overall engaged users, it looks healthy, but most of those players are still playing on the PlayStation

Phil: So Sony revealed that % of its audience is still on the older machine, even though the PlayStation has been selling well.

Phil: So any ideas as to why this may be?

Phil: Why PlayStation has been selling well, outselling Xbox, but more than half of Sony's engagement is still happening on the PlayStation when they're four years into their current console?

Tom: I just think at this stage, consoles feel increasingly pointless.

Tom: There's less motivation in terms of games to get a new console, and there's certainly an even smaller, more tangible difference between consoles as well.

Phil: And that's exactly right.

Phil: If you look at the latest playtime charts from Nuzu, it shows you the most played PlayStation games over the last two months, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And those games are exactly the games that you've described.

Phil: Games where you're not going to pick up a graphical difference.

Phil: Fortnite, Call of Duty, EA Sports FC or FIFA, GTA Online, Roblox, Minecraft, Rocket League and X Defiant.

Phil: And out of all those games, only X Defiant from Ubisoft, which was released in May, isn't on PlayStation

Phil: So these live service titles, you know, if I'm playing Rocket League, I don't particularly care if I'm playing it on Switch, PC, PlayStation whatever.

Phil: The point is, it looks just as good.

Phil: And I'm not going to go out and play a PlayStation if my main game is Roblox, Minecraft, Rocket League, Fortnite or Call of Duty.

Tom: Indeed.

Phil: So, which is exactly what you've said.

Phil: And all of the biggest games on PlayStation right now run on PlayStation and they run well.

Phil: So there's no compelling reason.

Phil: Did you say that the consoles are becoming less and less relevant?

Tom: And I think there isn't any reason for the average person to get a PSover a PS

Phil: No.

Phil: Even enthusiasts like ourselves who are hardcore.

Phil: You know, we've bought every Sony platform since they've existed.

Tom: I haven't got a PS

Tom: I don't think you do either.

Phil: No.

Phil: I struggled.

Phil: I haven't found a reason to.

Phil: Because I'm still playing plenty of great games on PlayStation and on PC, and there hasn't been a breakthrough title.

Phil: Now, you know, if they have stuck with VR, that would have been a reason to be like, okay, this is the time for me to get into VR.

Phil: I can hook it up to my PlayStation have some great games, but they've dropped the baby with that as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So some of the questions being raised is that with gamers taking five years or longer to transition from one generation to next, and AAA games taking four or five years to build, what does the seven-year generational cycle still work?

Phil: I mean, obviously not.

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: Anyway, for now, everyone's pitting their hopes, and I think rightfully so.

Phil: I think the next great in Theft Auto, GTA it's not being released for PlayStation or Xbox One.

Phil: If you're going to play it, you're going to have to buy it on a PlayStation or the Xbox Series.

Phil: I don't know if it's coming out to PC.

Phil: I don't think so because traditionally, Rockstar games take a while to get on to PC.

Phil: I think that the PC audience will be just happy to keep playing GTA online until GTA online is incorporated.

Phil: However, the hell are they going to do that?

Tom: I think you're correct.

Tom: It is currently only has release dates for PSand Xbox X slash S.

Tom: Nothing has been mentioned about PC yet.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So usually, there's a lag before they get to PC.

Phil: They typically like to sell out on the consoles as much as possible before they get to the PC.

Phil: And then their online usually lags further beyond that.

Phil: We both know that GTA online stuff is always janky for the first to months.

Phil: And then GTA has been the exception to the rule where it's finally picked up and been any good.

Phil: Yeah, this till I think is a good message because I do you think that GTA is going to push console sales for PS?

Tom: You think so?

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But it's also, I think, the only hope.

Phil: It's the only hope.

Tom: They have.

Phil: A bit like a PlayStation is like $$Australian.

Phil: And then you go out and pay $for GTA

Phil: But that would be pretty much the only thing I'd play on it.

Phil: I'd probably go and get Astro Bot or something like that.

Phil: But it's a hard sell.

Tom: I'd get the upgrade, the Gran Turismo upgrade.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, that too.

Phil: That too.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I mean, like, you know, yeah, I think it'll definitely help.

Phil: It going in the other direction, Star Wars Jedi Survivor, which is the sequel to the critically and commercially well-received game.

Phil: EA announced this week that it's coming to PlayStation after having been a year on the current gen consoles, which is kind of going in the other direction and saying, we haven't sold enough of this game, not enough adoption of the new consoles.

Phil: We're releasing this of PlayStation which will be interesting given that it had a tough technical goal of it on the current gen consoles.

Phil: So yeah, it has been a weird console generation, I will say.

Phil: If Microsoft had delivered on the promise of percent compatibility for Xbox and Xbox original games, I would have bought a series on day one twice.

Phil: But they didn't.

Phil: And so there's like no reason for me to buy an Xbox at this point, especially since we can get game pass on PC.

Tom: Will you get one for Grand Theft Auto?

Phil: I'd have to seriously consider it.

Phil: The other thing that holds, well, I won't get an Xbox, I'll get a PlayStation.

Phil: Because PlayStation is fully compatible with all PlayStation games, and I have a pretty substantial PlayStation library.

Phil: Plus, it plays Blu-ray.

Phil: So if you have a bunch of Blu-rays, and if you're a parent, you've got a bunch of Blu-rays, it's another reason to have another Blu-ray player.

Phil: So all these things have to start clumping together so that it makes sense to buy one.

Phil: So am I a big enough Grand Theft Auto fan to buy one?

Phil: Yeah, I think if you add everything else together, given how much content we've created about Grand Theft Auto over the years, I'd probably dip in.

Phil: But then right now, I'm playing everything predominantly on my PC gaming.

Phil: That's where it makes sense for me to be playing games.

Phil: So I could see myself holding out and not giving in to FOMO and getting it at launch.

Phil: How about you?

Phil: Would that...

Tom: You could just wait a few years for the PC port.

Phil: That's what I'm saying.

Phil: It's not like there's a shortage of games to play in the interim.

Tom: Really, it is literally the only PSgame that I can think of that is in any way tempting.

Tom: But I don't think it's a good idea to buy a console for literally a single game.

Phil: No.

Phil: In the past, even with Switch and other things have been compelled to want to buy, I've always waited until there's at least three games.

Phil: Because then at least there's a pipeline.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: So if they said, as much as I derided, if they said there's a new Uncharted coming out, right?

Phil: Or a new God of War.

Phil: Those things start to add up.

Phil: For you, Gran Turismo.

Phil: And then you go, okay, well, the sports offerings on Steam are fairly light.

Phil: If they can bring out a good football game, tennis game or whatever, you have all these reasons to do it.

Phil: But yeah, four years in, still not a reason to go.

Phil: Go ahead and do it.

Tom: Hoping for a good football or tennis game is an even bigger pipe dream.

Phil: It is.

Phil: I bought a tennis game the other day for my PlayStation

Phil: I've been leaning heavily into buying PlayStation games, knowing that if I get a PlayStation it's going to be able to play all of these games.

Phil: Because there's going to be a dearth of physical games in the future, I was like, well, while they're PlayStation games, I'm going to buy as many of them as I can, because at least I can play them on PlayStation

Phil: So thinking that I've never ever played a bad tennis game, even on the Super Nintendo, I saw one for the Australian Open.

Phil: It's terrible.

Phil: It is...

Tom: What's it called?

Phil: AO Tennis.

Phil: And it's from Big Ant Studios.

Phil: I think Big Ant used to do some cricket games in Australia.

Tom: So this is not only an Australian Open game, it's an Australian made game.

Phil: I believe so.

Phil: Yeah, I think Big Ant Studios is an Australian developer.

Phil: And yeah, it's got licensed players and stadia.

Phil: It's officially licensed game of the Australian Open, includes Rafael Nadal, Angelique Kerber, and real stadia such as Rod Laver Arena.

Tom: What's Margaret Court Arena called in it?

Phil: I doesn't say.

Tom: Okay.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: First of all, it has no sound.

Phil: Like there's no, and forgive me developers if I'm wrong, but there's no commentary or music.

Phil: So it's just sort of creepy.

Phil: It's, remember in Virtua Tennis for the Dreamcast, how you sort of had those weird characters and you liked the way that they looked.

Phil: Like you were amazed at how quote realistic they were, but they still looked absolutely sort of zombie-like when they opened their mouths and their hair was never quite right.

Phil: It's still that sort of era.

Phil: But yeah, it's just a bad game and the load times are phenomenally long.

Phil: It's the first time I've ever played a tennis game and not enjoyed it.

Phil: So it's just, yeah, it's a bad game.

Phil: One of the worst, the worst tennis game I've ever played.

Phil: I might have to do a follow up review in fairness to the developers on that.

Phil: Okay, so on with the show.

Phil: Why don't we talk about what we've been playing?

Tom: What have we been playing?

Phil: Well, I've been playing a Plague Tale Innocence.

Tom: Excellent choice.

Phil: On PC.

Phil: This game was released in actually, which is a lot longer ago than I thought.

Phil: And it's done by a French developer, Asobo Studio, and published by a company you've never heard of.

Phil: And Asobo Studio is a bizarre company, because they've gone on to make Microsoft Flight Simulator.

Phil: Right?

Tom: So you can see the lineage.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: So as we talk about this game, we will, you know, this will become even weirder.

Phil: The other game that I own from them, so they used to do like lots of licensed stuff, like Garfield, A Tale of Two Kitties, Ratatouille, Wall-E, Toy Story

Phil: You know, okay, that's fine.

Phil: That's, there's nothing wrong with doing those kinds of games.

Phil: I have Wall-E for the Wii.

Phil: And there's nothing wrong with doing that kind of work.

Phil: They did The Crew and The Crew right?

Phil: So that's Ubisoft's driving game, which is, okay, a strange twist after you've been doing all these kiddy franchise games.

Phil: Then they went on to make, after a year after they released The Crew they went on to make this game, A Plague Tale Innocence.

Phil: And then a year after, they released Microsoft Flight Simulator.

Tom: Followed by another Plague Tale and then another Microsoft Flight Simulator.

Phil: And Microsoft Flight Simulator is considered by most people to be one of the best games of all time and if not that, a technological triumph for what they were able to accomplish.

Phil: And for them to go from Disney licensed games to The Crew, which is still like The Crew had its problems, but it was still a viable driving game and technically very difficult as well, with plenty of stuff online.

Phil: They go and do a game like Plague Tale Innocence, and then Microsoft says, here you go.

Phil: You can have one of the jewels in the crown that we haven't done anything with since and see how it works out.

Phil: And it's been a phenomenal success.

Phil: And then the very next year, they come out with another Plague Tale game and then top that with another.

Phil: So these people are doing fantastic work.

Phil: You'd have to agree.

Tom: Before we move on from Flight Simulator, I was just browsing the Wikipedia pages.

Tom: You do during a podcast.

Tom: And an anecdote on there caught my attention from Jörg Neumann, who is presumably had something to do with developing the game.

Tom: And it's describing his experience of pitching it to Phil Spencer.

French Developer: He just looked at me and said, Why are you showing me a video of a plane?

French Developer: And then the plane turned and we flew over the Microsoft campus where we were.

Phil: And he is like, Is this real time?

Phil: Is this running?

French Developer: And I am like, yes, yes, it is.

French Developer: And we knew then we had something special.

Phil: My God.

Phil: Wow, I just love the fact that Phil Spencer, what he's just dropped into a room through a trap door in front of this guy.

Phil: And this Frenchman is watching a video on TV.

Phil: And he's like, why are you showing me a video of a plane?

Phil: Did you not know that why we were meeting, who I am, how I got into this room, how you got into this room, what we'd be talking about?

Phil: You're like one of the most powerful people at Microsoft and I'm just, why are you showing me a video of a plane?

Phil: Are you Chinese or Japanese?

Tom: What does this got to do with propane?

Phil: Propane?

Phil: Oh, God, boy.

Phil: Anyway, plague, so this, these people, Asobo, they're now my favorite studio.

Phil: They're, because they've, first of all, why?

Phil: Right?

Phil: They've done the miles.

Phil: They've been developing since

Phil: With their first game, Super Farm.

Phil: And they've done all sorts of various things.

Phil: And with A Plague Tale, it's a third-person action adventure with some stealth elements.

Phil: Set during, what do you say, the th century, I'd say France.

Tom: Something like that.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: During the Hundred Years War apparently.

Phil: And it uses Speed Tree.

Phil: And I've got to say, God, you know, Speed Tree is probably like percent of this game.

Phil: So whatever they're doing over there at Speed Tree, they're doing a fantastic job.

Phil: I can't imagine how much work they save developers, but with the generative fauna or foliage rather.

Phil: So, and so in this game, you play as a princess or just the daughter of a lord.

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: She's of the gentry class.

Tom: Some sort of noble woman.

Tom: I don't think a princess though.

Tom: An aristocrat.

Phil: I won't do this in a spoiler type way, but in some way, everything goes to hell and she's now charged with escorting her sickly brother, who has been kept in isolation away from everyone.

Phil: So she doesn't really have a relationship with him.

Phil: Let's just say that she's to and let's just say that the boy is somewhere between the age of four and six or seven.

Phil: And now you're leading him through the environment to try and get him ostensibly at first to a doctor or to a church or this, that or the other.

Phil: So if you can think of...

Phil: So what is this game about?

Phil: Well, first of all, what stands out about it?

Phil: Okay, obviously it's got a female protagonist from the mid th century.

Phil: This is not normal in a video game.

Phil: And I think it's done quite well.

Phil: The second thing is, she obviously doesn't have a gun or a shotgun or a handgun of any kind.

Phil: She has basically...

Tom: She does however have a slingshot.

Phil: She does have a slingshot, but and she also has the ability to throw stones, to distract people or throw pots to distract people.

Phil: So you can...

Phil: They give you the opportunity to throw stones at metallic objects to distract people you need to get past.

Phil: They give you tall linseed or grassy areas where you can walk through and not be detected if you crouch down.

Phil: The little boy can be used to get into areas which you cannot fit so that he can open doors for you and that sort of thing.

Phil: And so, yeah, it's not a conventional game at all in terms of its content.

Phil: Its gameplay, I would probably say, at this point, it's more of a stealth action game with very little emphasis on action.

Phil: It reminded me most of Splinter Cell than anything else.

Phil: And I used to love the original Splinter Cell games, the first three at least, but I haven't really gotten back into stealth since.

Phil: The Saboteur had some self-elements.

Phil: But since then, it hasn't really been a part of video gaming much.

Phil: Sneak King from Burger King had some stealth elements as well.

Phil: And I'm quite enjoying it.

Phil: The motion cones, or the detection cones, rather, of, we'll call them the guards, or basically any enemy you interact, are about as narrow as their eyeballs, so it's fairly easy from a stealth perspective to creep around because their zone of perception is quite narrow.

Phil: I've had a boss battle or two, which were basically ripped straight out of any sort of video game.

Phil: Like there's one, one of the first boss battles is very much like a Mario type battle where you have to hit the armor off them and then they're vulnerable and then you can strike them.

Phil: It's also brings in memories of Tomb Raider

Phil: You know, there's a crafting element.

Phil: You know, you've got the, they also have the grief of her first kill, which they overplay just as they did.

Phil: And I thought thoughtfully in Tomb Raider because it was an origin story.

Phil: But seeing it again being copied so closely, I thought was a bit on the nose.

Phil: I think if you remember in Tomb Raider it starts with Lara Croft killing a deer or some other animal, and then feeling really bad about killing an animal.

Phil: And then it just elevates up to her, you know, doing harm and then killing a human.

Phil: So they kind of skip those steps in this one to her killing the first person.

Tom: Could that be some of the historical setting?

Tom: Who's going to feel bad about killing an animal in the s?

Phil: Well, I think if you were to take any normal urban American or Australian, they would feel bad about killing an animal, even though they eat, you know, even though they might have ambivalence towards having a hamburger or a steak, they'd still feel squeezy about actually going through the act of killing an animal.

Tom: Were there many urbanites in the s?

Phil: Well, I believe so.

Phil: I mean, not particularly urbanites, but, you know, I mean, the people did live in cities.

Tom: I think animal cruelty was perhaps a little bit more widespread in that historical setting.

Phil: Maybe life was, yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Phil: You know, death and stuff was more apparent, obviously too because the name of this game is A Plague Tale.

Phil: They're obviously going through the Black Plague, which was spread through rats.

Phil: Now, the enemies in this game are the French Inquisition, which are wonderful enemies to be defeating and playing against in this game.

Phil: But there's also scared villages.

Phil: So I'd say in terms of atmosphere, the game has done well to create a realistic setting, or a setting that is credible.

Phil: I think that the main female character is quite good in terms of how realistic she is.

Phil: Like, you know, you could go, yeah, like, I can see how this is an actual person.

Phil: The game mechanics of the stealth and the combat when they're overlaid with all of that, doesn't seem like a good fit.

Phil: It seems contrived, but then this is a video game.

Phil: You know, it's just part of the deal.

Phil: So, if you look at something like God of War, you know, they are able to put someone in a pseudo-historical context with historical weapons and it all feels right.

Phil: None of this feels right.

Phil: Like, I don't think that a slingshot, you know, and being able to pull off headshots with a slingshot when you're a to -year-old woman of the gentry doesn't seem credible, but in the very opening scenes, they do show her hunting.

Phil: And so perhaps in that case, you know, that sort of explains the justification as to why she's such a good shot and all the rest of it.

Phil: You know, overall, I've got a very positive feeling about the game so far, and I'm aim compelled to play it.

Phil: I'm about three to four hours into it.

Phil: I think it's about a hour game.

Phil: But yeah, do you have any questions about it?

Tom: I think on the weapons, potentially not being as convincing as God of War, perhaps not that I played God of War, but from the outside looking in, I think the mechanics in God of War are a lot more complicated and rich in terms of gameplay, whereas they're pretty simple and a little bit janky in a plague tale.

Tom: So maybe that's why it doesn't feel convincing rather than an issue with the setting per se.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: I mean, I'm just shocked that you haven't played God of War.

Phil: I mean, it's a pretty important and good series.

Tom: So I've heard.

Phil: I've got to say, one thing about Hugo, the little character that you're helping out, he doesn't get in the way.

Phil: Like, he is not detrimental, which is outstanding because usually, you know, you'd expect a character like that to get in the way, but you can tell him to stay somewhere or to go ahead or to follow and all the rest of it.

Phil: Yeah, so I'm thoroughly impressed with it, which is no surprise to me at all because everyone that I like and respect has enjoyed the game.

Phil: You completed it, right?

Tom: Yep, I did, and if you're enjoying the Catholic adversaries, make sure you play until the end.

Phil: Oh, I will definitely be completing this game.

Phil: So what I would say is that, and I'll give final impressions once I do get through it, what I would say is that if you enjoy the kind of play like Uncharted, if you like something that's a little bit different than what you're used to, if you like a little bit of stealth action, this game is right up your alley.

Phil: And it also has that B-game vibe as well.

Phil: Like it's got a spirit to it where its success isn't assured, and you can kind of feel that.

Phil: You can somehow feel that the developers were doing this as a passion project, which is why their success with Microsoft Flight Simulator is so much.

Phil: It's such a delicious thing that they can have that success as well as have this creative thing that they're doing as well that's also having good success.

Phil: So in terms of reception, most outlets have given it an out of across all platforms.

Phil: The French gave it a out of because that's the French.

Phil: Of course, they're going to have a -point scale.

Tom: I think you're probably not ready to rate it yet, are you?

Phil: Oh, no.

Phil: Heck no.

Phil: You should take this as the highest praise.

Phil: I mean, the game that it most reminds me of is another buddy action game along this vein and that was Enslaved.

Phil: So, yeah, I'm really positive, really happy about it and playing it every day.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: What have you been playing every day?

Tom: I've been playing Baldur's Gate and I am up to, I believe, the final fight in the game.

Tom: So, we may finally be free of Baldur's Gate impressions very soon.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: I've got a question before you get into your update.

Tom: Go ahead.

Phil: Boss battles, end boss battles.

Phil: Do you prefer the penultimate boss to be the most difficult or the last boss?

Phil: So, usually, you basically have the option of, you have the penultimate boss and that's the real boss battle, and then a little bit of story and then you're fighting against the final boss, which is the antagonist of the game.

Phil: And it's typically not a very difficult challenge, but it's more there for story purposes.

Phil: Or do you prefer getting to the final boss and that one being the hardest battle of the entire game?

Tom: I prefer the final boss to be the most difficult, definitely.

Phil: Okay, I disagree, but tell me why you feel that way.

Tom: Because they're the one that is generally hyped up as the thing that is meant to pose the greatest challenge, so therefore, it should.

Phil: But if you can't beat it, you never get to finish the game.

Phil: See, I like it if the second last boss is the hardest one in the game.

Phil: Then somehow by beating that second hardest boss, that weakens the antagonist, and that's why you're able to easily knock him off, and you have more of that story element, and you have less stress on you, because I like the surprise second last boss to be the most difficult, because you basically go, oh, this isn't the last boss, so I can beat this guy, and you're like, oh, actually, this is kind of difficult.

Phil: Maybe it's a pressure thing with me where it's like, well, the pressure is off because this isn't the final battle.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Just interested in that.

Phil: So Bald Gate so what do you think?

Phil: Is this last boss the most difficult or is it the sort of setup that I just described?

Tom: The fight has just begun, so I can't comment on it yet.

Tom: And I think the final boss fight is preceded by an antagonist that appears between you and the final boss, who may not appear depending on what you've done in the story, but I presume would have some other antagonist would have taken their place.

Tom: If you didn't make the decisions that I made.

Tom: The lead up to it was just classic, here's a thousand enemies to give you a challenge design, which was a little disappointing.

Tom: So we might be in for disappointing finale in terms of gameplay.

Tom: That's what I'm thinking is going to happen.

Phil: So assuming that your character has a certain quote level at this point?

Tom: Everyone is the maximum level in your party.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So this should be a cake walk.

Phil: This should be a walk in a cake for you.

Tom: It depends.

Tom: Some of the last battles have been a cake walk with the fully level characters, some have not.

Tom: So they have found ways to keep a challenge going, as long as you're not just cheating with speed potions and things like that.

Tom: So it could go either way.

Phil: Well, I look forward to hearing final impressions on episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We're going to go into our How It Started segment.

Phil: So this is a new segment for us.

Phil: Just to describe it, basically, there's some merit in that some game series garner more cultural relevance and improve its games the longer they run, and some games don't really start at their first release.

Phil: So I'm going to give you some popular franchises.

Phil: I want you to tell me which is the first relevant entry in a series for you personally, and for the greater gaming community.

Phil: So for example, an easy one, we'll throw out their Halo, right?

Phil: So Halo is of course the first game in the franchise.

Phil: But is that where it hit its peak?

Phil: Is that where it was most relevant for you?

Phil: And then when do you think Halo started for the greater gaming community?

Tom: I would presume everyone would say the original Halo was the important one for the gaming community.

Tom: But I think Halo is actually more important because Halo I don't believe the hype that it was this revolutionary console first-person shooter.

Tom: No, there were console first-person shooters that had dual stick controls and were just as complicated before Halo.

Phil: Were they?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: But there was no, there was no online multiplayer first-person shooter like Halo before Halo

Phil: So Halo dual stick control first-person shooter.

Phil: So obviously first-person shooters on consoles, you've got GoldenEye Nsingle analog.

Phil: So it would have had to have been a PlayStation game that had dual stick.

Phil: So did something like TimeSplitters come out before Halo?

Tom: I'm going to look up.

Tom: What year did Halo come out in?

Tom:

Tom: Alien Resurrection.

Phil: Alien Resurrection?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: What did that come out for?

Tom: I think PlayStation

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: PlayStation had dual analog.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: TimeSplitters also came out in

Phil: That for sure was a dual stick.

Tom: So that predates Halo?

Phil: Yeah, definitely.

Tom: So I mean, there's no comparison.

Tom: Mechanically TimeSplitters is significantly better than Halo in my book.

Phil: I think they're both good for different reasons.

Phil: I'm not going to poo poo Halo.

Tom: I love Halo.

Tom: Don't get me wrong.

Phil: If I had to pick between the two, I'd probably still go with Halo, but that's probably cultural nostalgia more than anything else.

Phil: So you think for most people, Halo started with Halo

Tom: I'm saying people will say that Halo was the important Halo, but I'm saying in reality, Halo for everyone, not just for me personally, was the important Halo.

Phil: Because of it's on-line.

Tom: Yeah, because all the stuff that the original Halo was praised for actually existed.

Tom: The only potential argument you can make is that it tied together different things that other games did and they didn't do all of them at once.

Tom: Maybe you can make an argument from that angle.

Tom: But I think Halo is one of the most important games without any comparison ever.

Tom: I mean, what that did, if Halo was not there for Xbox Live, I think there would have been a totally different uptake of online gaming on consoles.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: Yeah, I agree with you.

Phil: I think most people would go with Halo, and I would certainly agree with you that Halo was the most significant because of its online.

Phil: I can't believe how many hours I would have sunk into playing Halo online and it changed everything.

Phil: I don't think there's a Fortnite without Halo

Phil: Now, obviously, some other game would have come along and done all of that, but the point is some other game didn't, and it was the one that did.

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: Okay, so now you know how to play the game.

Phil: So we'll play Grand Theft Auto, another big one.

Tom: I think for people in general, Grand Theft Auto

French Developer: Wow.

Tom: I think that all Grand Theft Autos have been massive, but Grand Theft Auto wasn't the all overwhelming cultural phenomenon that it has become until Grand Theft Auto

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I mean, if you look at Grand Theft Auto obviously before Grand Theft Auto there was Grand Theft Auto and which were top-down shooters like Robotron.

Phil: For the PlayStation and then Grand Theft Auto brought it to D, and was amazing for its time and ambitious.

Phil: Probably more ambitious than it was amazing, but it was certainly captivating and addictive, or addicting.

Phil: Then Grand Theft Auto was a relative dud, but also still incredible in its immersiveness.

Phil: And I've probably played over hours of that.

Phil: That's the one set in New York with Nico.

Phil: And of course, in between, you had San Andreas and Vice City.

Phil: And on top of Grand Theft Auto you had Gay Tony and Lost in the Damned.

Phil: And then obviously on to Grand Theft Auto

Phil: So I'd agree that by population alone, Grand Theft Auto with the online element is the game that's...

Phil: I wouldn't say it's the first relevant entry in the series, though.

Phil: I'd say, I'd probably say for most people, it would be Grand Theft Auto

Tom: Well, this is how you define relevant, though, because I think not just Grand Theft Auto the original Grand Theft Auto was hugely controversial.

Tom: I think until Grand Theft Auto each Grand Theft Auto's broader cultural relevance was purely based on the controversy surrounding them.

Tom: Whereas when we get to Grand Theft Auto ..

Phil: No controversy anymore?

Tom: No.

Tom: It becomes this entity that breaks free of controversy and people know about because it's meant to be a great game.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: As opposed to, it's controversial.

Phil: It's been a long time since I played the single player.

Phil: I think it was on Grand Theft...

Phil: PlayStation was the last time I played Grand Theft Auto

Phil: So...

Tom: And I'll give you an example of this.

Phil: Oh, you're right.

Phil: I completely agree.

Phil: But yeah, I'd like to hear your example.

Tom: When I was playing Vice City, it was during the brief period I was at high school.

Tom: And I was talking to my best friend there about visiting the strip club in the game.

Tom: Rodney.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: And the cool dude in the class came along hearing strip clubs being mentioned.

Phil: Stan.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: So Stan came over and he said, what are you talking about a strip club?

Tom: And so we explained, we're talking about the strip club in Vice City.

Tom: And he was so disgusted that a bunch of nerds were talking about some fucking video game.

Tom: I think if this plays out today, this scenario would not occur.

Phil: Of course not.

Phil: It's unimaginable.

Tom: Someone would have heard someone talking about Grand Theft Auto, and that's what would have tickled their something.

Phil: Yeah, a cockatoo.

Tom: Peaked their interest.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: That's when they would have come over.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Yeah, for sure.

Phil: Now, okay, for you, though, that's for the world.

Phil: For you, what was the first relevant entry in the series?

Tom: I think I'm going to have to go with not my favorite Grand Theft Auto, but the...

Phil: Your favorite is San Andreas, right?

Tom: Correct.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: I'm going to have to go with the one that first caught my attention and made, gave me a thus far lifelong interest in the series, which is the original Grand Theft Auto.

Tom: I think it stands out the most in terms of the gaming landscape other than Grand Theft Auto as well.

Tom: Just the atmosphere that game created when you were playing it was so overwhelming and so much sensory overload compared to most games at the time.

Phil: I do remember someone talking to me about that game at work going, you got to play this game.

Phil: I cannot believe it.

Phil: For me, the answer, do you want to predict?

Phil: First of all, do you want to predict which is my favorite and which answer I'm going to give?

Tom: I think judging by the outfit you're wearing, which the audience can't see, I'm going to go with your favorite being Grand Theft Auto

French Developer: No.

Tom: Thank God for that.

Phil: I'm wearing a Detroit Tigers cap, so that is not in anything to do with it.

Tom: It's not the city.

Tom: It's not the city.

Tom: It's the overall look.

Phil: Oh, the pastiche, the ouvert, ouvert.

Phil: For me, what is my favorite Grand Theft Auto, though, do you think?

Tom: I'm going to guess Vice City.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Because I'm a boomer.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: It's about your childhood.

Phil: Yeah.

French Developer: Yeah.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So no, my favorite is San Andreas.

Tom: That makes even more sense.

Tom: How did I not answer that?

French Developer: Yeah.

Phil: But I'm going to say that the first relevant entry in the series is Grand Theft Auto because that's what broke open not only Grand Theft Auto, but it broke open a whole genre, a whole world, a whole attitude towards video games.

Phil: I think it's one of the most consequential video games the last years, and there's plenty of reasons for that.

Phil: Okay, so we're going to go with one more.

Phil: How did it all start or how it started?

Phil: And then we'll save some.

Phil: Let's go with, roll the dice here.

Phil: Let's go with Tekken.

Tom: Tekken, I think for relevance to the world, probably the original Tekken.

Phil: In the arcade or, or PlayStation?

Tom: No, the console version.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: And specifically the console version, because if I remember correctly, how accurate it was to the arcade version.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: I don't have a dog in the hunt with Tekken.

Phil: I enjoy Tekken, but it's not like a Soul Calibur type level of game for me.

Phil: So, I would, I'm going to have to agree with you that the original Tekken is probably the one that is the most important.

Phil: They're up to Tekken by the way.

Phil: Tekken has been released for PlayStation and Xbox Series and Windows in this year.

Phil: In the year of Our Lord

Phil: For me, it is Tekken

Phil: I remember playing Tekken on a PlayStation and I couldn't get enough of that game.

Phil: It was fantastic.

Phil: And it was the first time that I fully enjoyed Tekken completely and entirely.

Phil: And I didn't have much of an interest in it before then.

Phil: I know I've got a few of the Tekken games for PlayStation, but Tekken to me was a groundbreaking game from Namco.

Tom: My personal choice would be Tekken

Tom: That's the one I started playing, and I've stuck with Tekken since that.

Phil: And that was for PlayStation, right?

Tom: PlayStation, that's right.

Phil: I think it came out for both PlayStation and PlayStation

Tom: Don't think so.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Tekken you're talking about?

Tom: Yeah, Tekken

Phil: Tekken was a very good game.

Phil: I have played that as well.

Phil: Now that I look at the cover art, I do have that one as well.

Phil: Yeah, fantastic fighting game.

Tom: And Tag Tournament is a close second.

Phil: Tag Tournament, another fantastic game.

Phil: Yeah, Tekken is underrated?

Phil: I don't think so.

Phil: I think it's appropriately rated.

Tom: I think it's appropriately rated.

Tom: Some people think it's the best fighting game ever.

Tom: So I think it's appropriate.

Phil: So before we close this out, I'm going to go to my questions for Tom from other people's podcast.

Tom: Before we do that, I'm just going to briefly go back to the Olympics because Sky currently has their version of the Olympics on.

Tom: Which is a tournament, all the people playing get assigned a team, which is based on the four main realms in the game.

Phil: Wait, wait, what do you mean?

Phil: Well, we'll stop.

Phil: What is Sky?

Tom: So Sky is the endless money-making invention by that game company to follow up.

Phil: I thought you were talking about the Murdoch-owned news network.

Tom: No.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So Sky Children of Light, the free-to-play online game available on all consoles, it's got their own version of the Olympics going on?

Tom: Yeah, correct.

Phil: And does it involve a lot of snowboarding or sandboarding?

Tom: A little bit of snowboarding, sort of.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So start again, now that we know what you're talking about.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: So basically, all the players who go to the area where the tournament takes place, are assigned a team for the duration of the event that they represent.

Tom: And that's based on the four main realms slash levels in the game.

Tom: And you can't pick the team, you just automatically signed it at the beginning of the tournament or whenever you go there.

Tom: And each day, there are two different types of competitions that you can play repeatedly and earn up to, I think, three medals slash points for your team.

Tom: And whichever team wins the most points is the team that is in front.

Tom: And there's a leaderboard within the area that you can look at too.

Tom: And the team I was assigned is currently losing by a significant margin, which I'm not to blame for because I generally finish within the top three at least.

Tom: But apparently everyone else in the team, on average, comes last.

Tom: But it's so far been, I think, one of the more enjoyable sky events of late.

Tom: The races, it's fun to have a competitive interaction as opposed to the cooperative interaction that the majority of sky is.

Tom: And most of the races are interesting little takes on the standard gameplay.

Phil: Oh, it's fun.

Phil: I think that's great.

Phil: Jenova Chen never has to work another day in his life, does he?

Tom: He's probably not.

Phil: No, he's probably already not.

Phil: He's already checked out.

Phil: Well, thank you for that.

Tom: I'm just going to...

Tom: We have the Dive Destiny recovered.

Phil: What do you need the Dive Destiny for?

Tom: I'm going to rate Sky's Olympic event.

Tom: I missed the Dive Destiny last week.

Phil: Did you know that...

Phil: Yeah, you sure did.

Phil: Did you know that Sonic and Mario go to the Olympics?

Phil: There's no Sonic and Mario go to the Olympics this year?

Tom: Wasn't there only ever one?

Tom: Or did they make more than one?

Phil: No, no, no, they've been doing this.

Phil: In fact, the Japanese one was a Collector's Edition because obviously the Japanese Olympics never went ahead, or were delayed or whatever.

Phil: But this year, there's not a Mario and Sonic go to the Olympics.

Phil: Do you know why?

Tom: Video game COVID?

Phil: The incredibly ethical IOC, International Olympic Committee, had instead awarded the exclusive rights to all video game-related ephemera for this current Olympics to some NFT company.

Phil: I didn't even know they were still making NFTs.

Phil: I thought that scam had moved on.

Phil: The current scam is AI, NFTs.

Phil: That's the scam before the last scam.

Tom: Are there AI NFTs?

Phil: There would have to be.

Phil: Some idiot's still doing NFTs.

Phil: I'm sure.

Phil: Anyway.

Tom: That sounds like a good idea.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: What is not a good idea is depriving the world of a Sonic and Mario Olympics game.

Phil: Because that's what's been keeping Sony and Nintendo alive because these games completely destroy whatever control you have because of the required button pressing.

Phil: OK, let's roll out the die of destiny for Sky Children of Light Olympic edition.

Tom: It's a out of

Phil: out of sounds about right.

Phil: A die.

Tom: One for each rage.

Phil: That's terrible.

Phil: You know, when I roll die, I typically roll

Phil: And I just don't know why your die rolls so low.

Tom: Like me, it has high standards when it comes to video games.

Phil: I guess so.

Phil: So now it's time for Phil's Questions for Tom from other People's Podcasts.

Phil: Alan writes from Destination Unknown, Imagine a scenario where a video game character, imagine a scenario where video game characters suddenly gain self-awareness.

Phil: Okay, you're following along.

Phil: So we're a video game character, we're in a game, but all of a sudden we realize that we're real people and we start questioning our existence.

Phil: They form a council to discuss their predicament.

Phil: Which video game character would you choose to lead this council and why?

Tom: It's an interesting question.

Tom: What would be the goal of the committee or would that depend on the character who was chosen?

Phil: Basically, all video game characters have now understood that they have been created in a, they thought they were all living their real life.

Phil: So Dom in Gears of War has been living plus years fighting, whatever he's fighting in Gears of War.

Phil: God of War has been doing whatever he's been doing, Mario has been doing whatever he's been doing.

Phil: Now they finally realize that actually this is just a constructed world.

Phil: And everything that they believe in has actually just been for someone else's entertainment.

Phil: And that % of people don't even finish their game.

Phil: So based on the achievement records.

Phil: So they have to elect someone to go, okay, well, what do we, we need to discuss this predicament.

Phil: What are we gonna do?

Phil: What is going on here?

Phil: Should we continue to participate in this world?

Phil: Should we break off from it?

Phil: Who should be leading the council of self-aware video game characters?

Tom: I think Raiden from Metal Gear Solid.

French Developer: Why?

Tom: He's essentially experienced the same thing in his game.

Phil: Oh yeah, fair enough.

Phil: So he's got experience.

Tom: Exactly, he's the most qualified for this situation.

Phil: What other game, what other game characters have realized that they're part of a simulation?

Tom: I think adventure games have a lot of fourth-wall breaking jokes along those lines.

Phil: Adventure games?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Like Day of the Tentacle type stuff?

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah, okay, so Tim Schafer character.

Phil: Oh, what about the Jack Black character from the Double Fine RTS Heavy Metal game?

Phil: He'd be rousing.

Tom: There's one I haven't played, but that could work.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: As long as there are no presidential assassinations.

Phil: He'd be rousing because he'd be able to say, hey, I've also played Bowser in this other game.

Phil: Guess what?

Phil: We're all just characters.

Phil: We're all just actors on another field.

Phil: Jennifer Hale, Princess Peach and Cortana are the same actress.

Phil: So I think that would be a good leveling field because she'd be able to say, hey, it's quite all right.

Phil: We all play different roles.

Tom: Cortana should also have a lot of data gathered on the real world as well.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So I go with Jack Black.

Phil: You go with Raiden.

Tom: Raiden.

Phil: What about Gordon Freeman or another silent protagonist?

Tom: Can a silent protagonist lead?

French Developer: No, no, no.

Phil: So who's the most verbose video game character?

Tom: That's a good question.

Phil: Probably someone from The Stanley Parable.

Phil: What about that girl Jade?

Phil: What about Jade from The Pig Game?

Phil: You know, The Pig Game?

Phil: The French Pig Game from Ubisoft?

Phil: What?

Tom: Beyond Good and Evil.

Phil: Yeah, that one.

Phil: What about her?

Phil: She's a journalist, a photo journalist, but you know.

Tom: That could work, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, this is a really good question.

Phil: I think I'm somewhat flummoxed.

Tom: I'm gonna go stick with my choice.

Tom: I think it's a good choice.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Master Chief would be no good.

Tom: The only issue is he would probably just leave the group behind based on his course of action following the events in Metal Gear Solid

Phil: Okay, you know what?

Phil: The best answer for this one for me would be any character from a David Cage game.

Phil: Because they would be verbose, sensitive.

Phil: I think, you know, I think if you were to take the Ellen Page character from that David Cage game, that would be the one.

Tom: What about the serial killer?

Phil: No, no, no good.

Tom: Not him?

Phil: And what about someone like Qubit or Frogger?

Tom: Do these characters become a part of reality?

Tom: Or are they still trapped within the virtual world?

Phil: They're trapped within the virtual world.

Phil: So I think we're talking about a game like Pixels or Wreck-It Ralph at this point.

Phil: So maybe that's a real answer.

Tom: What about Mario?

Phil: No, he doesn't speak.

Phil: Sonic, Sonic would be good, because Sonic has experienced life.

Phil: Sonic, no, but Sonic has been in the real world through his movies and he's kissed a real human.

Phil: So I, you know, maybe Sonic would be the best.

Phil: I think Sonic would be.

Tom: Mario has been a real human.

Phil: Yeah, but he can't talk.

Phil: He can't talk.

Tom: Are you speaking that film?

Phil: He's a, I guess.

Phil: I still go with Sonic, because I think Sonic is a good leader.

Phil: He would, he would, he would, he would rally the troops.

Phil: He would reassure the weak.

Phil: I think it's definitely, my answer is Sonic the Hedgehog.

Phil: Your answer is Paige from The Pig.

Tom: I'm going to change it to David Bowie.

Phil: Oh, from?

Tom: Another David Cage game.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: What was that game called, man?

Tom: Omicron the Nomad Soul.

Phil: Omni-cron.

Tom: Omicron.

Phil: Omicron the Nomad Soul.

Phil: I guess so.

Phil: Thanks for listening to Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since so there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website at gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, here's a comment section from our homepage.

Phil: I am working on a review of the Ranger.

Phil: Do you know what the Ranger is?

Tom: The Ford Ranger?

Phil: Well, I could do that if they sent me one for free.

Phil: But this is actually a game pad for the Atari and Retron

Phil: So yeah, I'll be posting that sometime in the next couple of days.

Phil: I know that there will be one person who reads that review, which will be Raven Pros from the VG Press.

Phil: Thanks for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Tom: And if you want more Game Under Olympic content read, the review of The Ramp by Tom Towers at gameunder.net.

Game Under Podcast 157

Stream below or right-click and download directly. You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:18 Intro

0:02:10 News - Valve Employee Levels and Pay Revealed

0:12:34 News - Sony Marketing Director Winges About Being Outspent

0:16:08 News - Dong Doom

0:19:46 News - Ubisoft Continues to Ruin Art

0:24:47 What Playing - Baldur's Gate 3

0:28:37 What Playing - Teardown

0:39:26 What Playing - Mafia Definitive Edition

0:44:45 What Playing - Dear Esther - Spoilers

1:07:23 Emails for Tom from other peoples podcasts

1:14:30 What Playing - Indika - Spoilers

1:48:54 Time Machine Review: 2014 Dear Esther Review

Transcript
Tom: On three, one, two, three.

Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host Tom Towers, and I'm joined as ever by Phil Fogg.

Phil: Hey, everyone, Phil Fogg, PC gamer.

Phil: Glad to be back.

Tom: Are you a politically correct gamer or someone who predominantly plays games on a personal computer?

Phil: Still loving the gaming PC, so much so that the games in my Steam library are now starting to look meager, and I'm trying to figure out how to get my itch games to work on it.

Phil: Because I think that's the itch I need to scratch.

Phil: I didn't even mean to say that.

Phil: But yeah, I'm there.

Phil: It's happening.

Phil: It's real.

Phil: Oh, Amazon games.

Phil: Yeah, I could go play those.

Phil: So, but unless there's anything else, we'll just jump straight in the news.

Phil: We've got a big show today.

Phil: We're going to be talking about Indica.

Phil: We have a spoiler cast at the end of this show.

Phil: Indica is a game that came out this year that is a must play in my consideration because of its uniqueness.

Phil: It's I-N-D-I-K-A.

Phil: It's available on pretty much everything, I'm sure.

Phil: We'll also be talking about Teardown, you'll give us a Bald-Eight, a Bald-Eight?

Phil: A Bald-Gate, what's it called?

Phil: Baldur's Gate update, as long as you've been playing Mafia Definitive Edition, I understand.

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: And I've gone back and played Dear Esther.

Phil: So I thought I hadn't played it before.

Phil: More on that later.

Phil: I finished it.

Phil: And at the end of this show, we're going to have a very special re-broadcast of our Dear Esther impressions from episode where you'll hear a much faster talking and younger Phil Fogg and Tom Towers.

Phil: Much faster thinking as well.

Phil: But on to the news.

Phil: Story number one, credit goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Steam is massive, but far fewer people work at Valve than you might think.

Phil: How many people do you think work at Valve?

Tom: I would actually, I mean, I imagine that the Valve office just consists of a bunch of people sitting around doing absolutely nothing.

Tom: So I would actually expect them to not have many staff.

Phil: Now remember from our review of a desk job or whatever it was called, Aperture Desk Job, we, I guess there'd be about to people working there because I figured they put everyone in the credits, including the janitor, which is fine.

Phil: I'd do the same thing.

Phil: Well, they're being sued and they're being sued by Humble Bundle over the company's % cut from store purchases.

Phil: And so these court documents have revealed detailed employment statistics.

Phil: It not only revealed the number of people working there, but also what each division gets paid, right?

Phil: So how many people work at the world's most used PC game store and launcher?

Tom: I'm gonna guess people.

Phil: This is the Steam division, obviously.

Tom: I'm gonna say the entire company, people.

Phil: What, the entire company?

Phil: No, you're mistaken.

Phil: Steam has people working for them, which sounds under resourced, but if you recall back deep into Valve's history, every time they bring someone new on, it's like a committee decision whether they're gonna bring someone on because every time they bring someone on, it decreases their pay.

Phil: Because they split the pay up evenly to some extent.

Phil: Now, Valve's hardware team, keeping in mind what Valve's made, they made the Valve controller and the deck thingy.

Tom: Five.

Phil: Five, no, now you're just joking me.

Phil: people, which sounds like a lot.

Tom: So half the number of people that work for the only functional part of Steam, which is the Steam division.

Phil: Of Valve, yeah.

Tom: Works at the essentially non-existent hardware division.

Phil: The thing that churns out a few things occasionally.

Phil: Now they did do the VR thing though.

Tom: Arguably, actually, the hardware department of Steam is the most productive.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, well, this comes up to the next team.

Phil: The games team, right?

Phil: Which brings out a game every, I'm gonna say on average, every five years.

Phil: They had that failed card game.

Phil: They obviously have Dota.

Phil: They had the failed card game.

Phil: They had the Alex VR game.

Phil: They had the Aperture Desk Job game.

Phil: I mean, seriously, I'm not exaggerating when I'm saying they bring out a game once every five years.

Phil: Anyway, they employ.

Tom: I'm gonna guess

Phil: You wanna guess?

Phil: people.

Phil: people.

Tom: Takes a lot of people to draw Steam cards.

Phil: Yes, I guess so.

Phil: Well, no, I think those people would be working in the Steam division.

Phil: You think so?

Phil: You know.

Phil: A further staff would describe.

Tom: It takes a lot of people to draw Team Fortress hats.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: A further staff were described as being employed in admin roles, which will become interesting in just a moment.

Phil: So that's a total of people, and this is numbers, right?

Phil: And the company is believed to bring in $billion of revenue a year, which is a lot of money.

Phil: So that's a lot of money per human, right?

Phil: Now, EA generates the same amount of revenue, $billion annually.

Phil: Do you want to guess what their staff is?

Phil: So Steam, oh sorry, Valve, people for billion.

Phil: EA makes the same money.

Phil: How many staff?

Tom:

Phil: That's not even a serious guess.

Phil: Give me a serious guess.

Phil: I'll go with staff.

Phil: To make what?

Tom: A sports, multiple sports games every year that are just copy and pasting the previous one.

Phil: That is disgusting.

Phil: They need to cut.

Phil: I'm not saying they need to have less than people, but if they had people, I mean, they should go with my guess.

Phil: Imagine what the Christmas cards cost alone.

Phil: So Valve's staff working on Steam were paid a combined $million a year.

Phil: So the people working on Steam get paid on average a million dollars a year, $

Phil: The hardware team was paid basically $million a year.

Phil: And so the hardware team is earning $

Tom: So the only people doing any work are earning the least.

Tom: That sounds about right.

Phil: Well, I think it's proportionate.

Phil: I think it's going to be...

Phil: The way Gabe would run his dictatorship over there, everyone gets an equal amount, and according to the number of people you have, which keeps your team small.

Phil: And then number two, the pay that you guys get is going to be based on your revenue.

Phil: So if, you know, Steam is obviously the big money maker, so they will make a million bucks a year.

Phil: I find it hard to believe how I would keep motivated after three years if I was making a million dollars a year.

Tom: I'm surprised that the hardware section is generating any revenue whatsoever.

Phil: Oh, well, but you know, those poor bastards are only making half a million dollars a year.

Phil: I don't know how they get by.

Phil: So finally, Valve's games team were paid a total of $million a year, so they're also taking home a million each.

Phil: However, the admin staff are paid significantly more.

Phil: The admin staff are paid, You wouldn't expect that.

Phil: Yes, there's only of them, and they average $million each per year.

Phil: Which makes me wonder, is this perhaps the team that Gabe Newell is in?

Phil: Bringing up that average.

Tom: I thought he might actually be in his own team of one.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Can I just ask, what exactly is the role of an admin team in a cooperative structure?

Tom: That sounds like a position that shouldn't actually exist.

Phil: They'd order lunch, they'd do photocopies, filing, accountants, important tax information.

Phil: I remember years ago, they hired an economist to figure out how to make the most out of steam.

Tom: Yanis Varoufakis.

Phil: Is that what his name was?

Phil: Wow, why do you know that?

Tom: He was the Greek finance minister.

Tom: And he was at, I think, Sydney University for a number of years.

Tom: So he's something of a minor public figure in Australia.

Tom: And in Greece as well.

Tom: Yanis Varoufakis.

Phil: Oh, I loved him in The Hangover.

Phil: He was fantastic.

Phil: That guy, he's so funny.

Phil: And The Hangover was funny, even though people say it was just the same movie again.

Phil: But yeah, no, I love that guy.

Phil: Zach, whatever his name is.

Phil: Yeah, so there you go.

Tom: I have read a book by him, but I would not recommend the article he wrote about how Steam functioned.

Phil: Okay, Zach Galifianakis or this guy.

Phil: He knows nothing about Steam.

Phil: Okay, so basically, let's get to the bottom line.

Phil: There's people working over there.

Phil: The people in games and on Steam make a million each.

Phil: The hardware people make half a million each, and the people in admin make four and a half million dollars each, which is good on them.

Tom: I think the other thing we learned from this article is if the Steam team is that small, clearly, the majority of work that actually occurs on Steam is being contracted out.

Phil: Yeah, perhaps.

Phil: But they do do a fair bit, I guess.

Phil: But a lot of it has to be automated at this point where they put it back on the developer.

Phil: Like, you're going to submit a game, you do all the work, and it sort of goes through.

Tom: That's even better than contracting.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: That's how I think it would work, now that I'm working with major companies.

Phil: Like, there's no human involvement whatsoever.

Phil: But when you see the end result, it all works fantastically.

Tom: That's why they've hired you, because there's no human involvement whatsoever.

Phil: Whatsoever, yep.

Phil: The other big thing to come out of this story is that EA, who makes the same amount of money, has staff.

Phil: Like, if you ask me how much staff Boeing had, I would have guessed

Tom: Do we know how many people work for Boeing?

Phil: No, but I can find out.

Tom: Let's find that out.

Phil: We'll go on.

Phil: We need to know now.

Tom: Yep, that's why people come here.

Tom: For this level of detail and research.

Phil: Okay, wow.

Phil: Oh, boy.

Phil: Do you want to guess?

Tom: Well, my EA guess was

Tom: So I'm going to guess

Phil: You're very close.

Phil: employees.

Tom: That was pretty close.

Phil: That is, how do you even do that?

Phil: Imagine going there for a charity drive and you just ask everyone for one dollar, you know?

Tom: Are we going to get any court documents where they can divide things into sections such as number of saboteurs, hitmen, that sort of detail?

Phil: Well, you are up on the news.

Phil: You heard about that poor fellow who had his lunch, then committed suicide, as you always do.

Tom: You got to have a last meal.

Phil: You can't shoot yourself in the back of the head with two bullets on an empty stomach.

Phil: Of course not.

Phil: Story number two, onto lighter news.

Phil: And again, at The Game Under Podcast, we always give you a twist on news.

Phil: I would be surprised if anyone listening to this had heard these stories on other shows.

Phil: There's other news that's going on, like Shadows of the Dam being re-released.

Phil: That's pretty good.

Tom: That's not bad.

Phil: You love that game.

Phil: Oh, you're kidding me.

Tom: No.

Phil: That's a Suda McCartney joint.

Phil: It's absolutely fantastic.

Phil: Okay, I'm going to find a way to get it to you, even if I have to buy it on Steam or whatever.

Phil: If it is on Steam, maybe I should wait for the remaster.

Tom: I think Arnie may actually have it on Steam.

Phil: Okay, well, let's do more online research.

Tom: No, he doesn't.

Phil: Ah, well, the listeners are shaking their heads, sadly.

Phil: This next story comes to us with credit to Marketing Week.

Phil: What was Phil Fogg doing reading Marketing Week?

Phil: Who knows?

Phil: Xbox Marketing Director complains that their competition, Sony, outspends them.

Phil: Despite being owned by one of the biggest businesses in the world, Xbox's marketing boss says the brand needs to be quite scrappy when it comes to securing marketing investment.

Phil: And this is why you read industry rags, because that's where the truth comes out.

Phil: Quote, this is their marketing director.

Phil: From a funding point of view, we need to work really hard against our competition, said Michael Flat.

Phil: Sony's PlayStation is the biggest brand competitor in the console market.

Phil: And quote, regrettably, they outspend us.

Phil: He's in charge of marketing, and he's out there saying our competition outspends us.

Phil: They're blessed with marketing funds that we're not able to enjoy.

Phil: But that's totally fine.

Phil: We adopt what I would call a more fiscally responsible approach to media investments.

Phil: We're not blessed with huge media budgets, so we have to be quite scrappy, really.

Phil: And tenacious and fight for funds that would probably go somewhere else, he tells Marketing Week.

Phil: What are you doing?

Phil: What is it?

Phil: Okay, regrettably, they outspend us.

Phil: They're blessed with marketing funds that we're just not able to enjoy.

Phil: But that's totally fine.

Phil: We adopt a more fiscally responsible approach to media investments.

Phil: We're not blessed with huge media budgets, so we have to be scrappy and fight for funds that would probably go somewhere else, like trying to sell Excel or Copilot or something like that.

Phil: What is your takeaway from that?

Phil: Okay, you tell me what your takeaway is from that.

Tom: I'm just fascinated and utterly perplexed.

Phil: It's loser talk is what it is.

Phil: It's basically saying, Oh, yeah, we can't sell.

Phil: We're getting out some of the Xbox to because we don't get the marketing money that Copilot does.

Tom: But why is he saying it?

Phil: Because he's talking to an industry rag.

Phil: It's the same thing that people do when they get on podcasts.

Phil: They say way too much, you know, because they think no one's listening.

Phil: He thinks he's just talking to a journalist, hey, marketing week, you know, this is just marketing talk.

Phil: But like, mate, you work for a video game company.

Phil: There is no such thing as, you know, you doing something and it not being picked up and carried across the nation, across the world, you know.

Phil: Blows my mind, blows my mind.

Phil: I don't think that guy's going to be around for long.

Tom: Maybe he's already received his marching orders and he's going out with a bang.

Phil: Well, we'll look up Michael Flat next week and see, look up his LinkedIn and see where he's ended up.

Phil: He might end up in the same place as Dan Mattress or whatever his name was.

Phil: Story number three.

Phil: This is our final story for this week.

Phil: Doom.

Phil: Now, Doom is famous for being able to run on anything.

Phil: The original first-person shooter for the PC back from the s.

Phil: Runs on calculators, runs on Teslas.

Phil: Doom is now running on a sex toy.

Phil: Goes to Destructoid, of course, the gutter press.

Phil: It's a...

Phil: Dong Doom, as the maker calls it, uses a device called a Tifo Run.

Phil: And the device buttons are used for forward, backward, and sideward movements, with the last button firing your gun.

Phil: Each shot causes a vibration from the built-in motor, and killing enemies triggers the product's main feature.

Phil: If you know what I mean.

Phil: Dong Doom even has audio, but the most impressive feature is the game's tangible haptic feedback.

Phil: So if you're desperate to get your hands on one of these devices, you can check Christopher's video description, because he's included a direct link to it on AliExpress, which we'll link in the show notes.

Phil: So he's also put Doom on an electric toothbrush, which was probably the inspiration for this.

Tom: I'm highly disappointed with this version of the game's control method.

Phil: Well, you've got left, right, up and down, and then if you kill someone, it...

Tom: I believe you said that it had thumbsticks that were involved.

Phil: Yes, it does.

Tom: I had an entirely different control scheme in mind when I heard this story.

Phil: Oh, really?

Phil: How would you think it would work?

Tom: Well, I presumed that you'll be using a different appendage to your thumbs to directly control the game.

Phil: Oh, no, no, no.

Phil: No, it's not like that.

Phil: This thing, by the way, a dong doom, it's a thing that you put over the mail.

Phil: You know, I don't want to get too graphic.

Tom: That's my point entirely.

Phil: Yes, I...

Tom: This should have been the control method.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yes, it should have been.

Phil: This reminds me of a quote from Angus Young, the guitarist in a little Australian band called ACDC.

Phil: He was asked what his...

Phil: Like, if he could design the best guitar or what is the best guitar you could possibly own?

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: Have you heard this quote?

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: And I'm going to keep this family friendly in case someone's listening to this in the car with the kids.

Phil: But he basically said that the best guitar he could ever design would have female genitalia on the back of it so that he could enjoy, you know, the moment while he was playing the guitar.

Tom: Would it affect the timbre of the notes or anything?

Phil: It's an interesting question.

Phil: I'm not a musician, so...

Tom: Because it sounds like maybe he did not have the level of imagination that I think is required to truly innovate in this sphere, just like the creator of Dong Doom.

Phil: Dong Doom, yep.

Phil: So look it up, Dong Doom.

Phil: Obviously, this guy is a hobbyist.

Phil: I mean, if he's got this thing running on a toothbrush, it's an obvious next step to get this operating on this sort of apparatus as well.

Phil: Anything with a screen, that's the goal.

Phil: I just don't understand what drives someone to try and get Doom to run on anything with a screen.

Phil: I guess it's for attention.

Phil: And I guess hobbyists, I guess.

Tom: I think it's for the pleasure of creating something new.

Phil: Yes, possibly.

Phil: Just one last half story.

Phil: We talked about how Ubisoft and Elon Musk got into it in our last episode about their upcoming Assassin's Creed Shadows game, which is set in feudal Japan and features a black samurai and a female protagonist, which of course is completely respectful to the Japanese history and heritage.

Phil: And Elon Musk said this is a DEI game, it's ruining art.

Phil: And they said, oh no, we do not believe Elon.

Phil: Our game will be nothing like he said, which apparently...

Tom: I just finally understood exactly what Elon Musk said.

Tom: So normally, if you're from a western country and you're making work of art that depicts another culture, you're not meant to be accurate in any way towards that culture.

Tom: So I finally understood his point.

Tom: It is diversity, equity and inclusion because having a black samurai and a female ninja is respectful of the Japanese arts, where there's a strong tradition of female ninjas and Japanese history with its black samurai.

Tom: So we were a little perplexed as to his reasoning before, but I just figured it out.

Phil: Well, I'm glad you did.

Phil: So since then, however, Ubisoft has now come back down off their high horse to apologize.

Phil: No one quite knows what their apology is for.

Phil: I read different stories, it all said basically the same thing.

Phil: However, I thought their response was funny.

Phil: They focused on, well, first of all, they had to apologize to some group for using their logo that they shouldn't have used.

Phil: You know, it could have been the Japanese version of the clan for all I know.

Phil: I don't know, but they apologize for using that logo and said it will never happen again.

Phil: This, then they went on, after explaining what they weren't apologizing for, they said this, well, Yusake, who is the black samurai, is depicted as a samurai in our game.

Phil: We acknowledge that this is a matter of debate and discussion.

Phil: We have woven this carefully into our narrative with our other lead character, a Japanese shinobi, who is equally important in the game.

Phil: Our dual protagonists provide players with different gameplay styles.

Phil: They go on to say that they use numerous external consultants and historians, and then say that these external consultants were, quote, in no way responsible for the decisions that are taken by the creative team.

Phil: Criticism, therefore, should not be directed at collaborators, both internal and external.

Phil: Collaborators, both internal and external.

Phil: Ubisoft closed their media release by encouraging fans to continue sharing their feedback respectfully.

Phil: They're weird, man.

Phil: They go, I mean, because they go, oh, this guy, Yusaki, this black guy, he was really a samurai.

Phil: Well, apparently what they're apologizing for is it turns out that he wasn't really a samurai.

Phil: Who knows what he was.

Phil: Then they say, oh, he may have been a samurai.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And then they do their whole, oh, you know, we use lots of consultants, but oh, but don't, don't, you know, these, they call, then they go on to call their consultants collaborators, which I think is probably just a translation thing, because no one uses the word collaborator, because the only thing that it conjures up is...

Tom: Particularly not in France.

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: You know, it conjures up, you know, French collaborators with the Nazis during World War II.

Phil: And they said therefore, I can't do a German accent anymore, criticism therefore should not be directed at collaborators both internal and external.

Phil: And I'm like, OK, I get...

Phil: They're basically saying, don't go harass our external collaborators.

Phil: What's an internal collaborator?

Phil: And then...

Tom: The external collaborator, so maybe the Dutch?

Phil: And then they close it out by telling fans how they should react to this, trying to preempt the response that they're going to get on the internet by saying, hey, you know, we're not going to cop some shit for this, but, you know, please be respectful.

Phil: Anyway, I won't be buying the game.

Phil: Strong protest against this sort of behavior.

Tom: Strong protest against collaborating with Nazis.

Phil: Yes, and cultural appropriation inaccurately depicted somehow.

Phil: I think actually the best way to do cultural appropriation would be to be have respectful cultural misappropriation, which would be doing it incorrectly, because then you're not misappropriating it.

Phil: I hope I've made myself perfectly clear.

Phil: With that, we'll close this.

Tom: Clearer than Ubisoft made themselves.

Phil: Certainly.

Phil: We're going to close this out and talk about what we've been playing.

Phil: So do you want to give us a ballgate update?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: So I'm now down to, I think, two or three big fights remaining, depending on if I do one of them.

Tom: I think I can now reach a pretty solid conclusion on the combat in the game.

Tom: And at its best, it is excellent.

Tom: The sorts of strategies you can employ and use and the interesting ways they arrange enemies and combine them makes it into as much of a turn-based strategy game as an RPG.

Tom: But simultaneously, the same problem that was there early in the game of them artificially inflating the difficulty of encounters by just shoving as many enemies into the area as possible or ridiculously bloating an enemy with HP and buffs remains.

Tom: And when you encounter, when I've encountered some of these battles, I've looked up strategies on the internet and it's clearly not just a deficiency in my ability to figure out a correct strategy for these battles because generally speaking, you look it up and if it's a strategy guide, they will sort of um and err about how to deal with it.

Tom: They'll always be playing on a lower difficulty setting.

Tom: If you look up people who are playing the game on reddit or whatever, their strategy will usually consist of figuring out a way how to cheese it or cheat.

Tom: Or they'll come up with a strategy that they don't really consider to be cheesing or cheating, but essentially boils down to exploiting a ridiculously overpowered combination of specific magic or something to that extent.

Tom: And in the game itself, there is essentially what is a cheat code for just such occasions, which are speed potions, which basically double the number of turns you get.

Tom: So I think when it comes to the game trying to give you a challenge, which is pretty consistent with the important battles at the end of the game, they run out of ideas at least half the time, which I think is a little disappointing given how excellent the difficulty is in some of the battles.

Tom: It's really uneven.

Phil: I think you've been...

Phil: Have you been uniformly disappointed with the bosses in this game?

Tom: No, not uniformly.

Tom: I would say % of them, once you get further into the game and they start increasing the difficulty, are a little bit annoying or not so great an experience.

Tom: Of the remainder, I would say % are really interestingly designed battles and the other % are too much in the opposite direction where they're a bit of a pushover.

Phil: So, I mean, has this game been a grind?

Phil: I mean, you've been playing it for quite some time now.

Phil: Is it because you're dragging it out because you're enjoying it or is it just because it's not enjoyable enough and you can only play it in small increments?

Tom: Well, I can only play it in small increments, so that would be the main reason it has taken so long.

Tom: But I think the other reason is not that I'm dragging it out, but that it's been interesting enough that I've been exploring everywhere I can.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Well, thanks for that update.

Phil: Next, we're going to be talking about Teardown.

Phil: We've both been playing it on PC.

Phil: It's available for PlayStation Xbox and PC.

Phil: Produced and published and developed by one and the same, a company called Tuxedo Labs.

Phil: As far as I know, this is their only game, though I could be completely wrong about that.

Phil: I watched the credits, and I think there's about to people that worked on the game.

Phil: But there's a single person who was both the director, designer, programmer and writer, and that's Dennis Gustafson.

Phil: So it's, you know, I mean, it's a small game, but it's also a game that's, I think, well made.

Phil: To describe it, well, it's voxel-based.

Phil: So think Minecraft or D.Heroes for you old people out there.

Phil: And you are a person who is involved in demolition.

Phil: And so basically you get these messages on your computer for people who are asking you to do various things.

Phil: You go to the stage.

Phil: Some of them are timed, some of them are not.

Phil: And using various equipment, ranging from a sledgehammer through to a crane or bulldozer or a front-end loader or forklift, you have to basically try and accomplish the goal that you've been given.

Phil: All of these things are criminal, so they're done under the cover of night.

Phil: Usually they're asking you to...

Phil: Well, one of the missions is to knock down a building because you want to build something there.

Phil: And as a part of that, you might have to also steal the property owner document so they can never prove that they actually owned it.

Phil: So you've only played the first mission, is that right?

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: And what was involved in that first mission?

Tom: I believe you had to also knock down a building.

Tom: Well, I would just presume that's what the majority of the missions consist of.

Phil: Given the name of the game is Tear Down, and the demolition, because it is a voxel-based game, I found it richly rewarding and physics-based.

Phil: Though, like LEGOs, I think some of the equipment that you're using is a bit fragile and will break a little too easy.

Phil: But yeah, this is a game that does require some graphical push.

Phil: It's quite a technical game, and there are obviously little sandboxes.

Phil: Each little place that you have to go, each setting has about four or five missions, from what I can tell.

Phil: So yeah, what are your first impressions of the game?

Tom: Well, I was wondering what the hook would be in the campaign, because it looked like a game that was very much just sandbox-based.

Tom: I didn't even know that it had a campaign before I started it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: No, the campaign is what it's all about, because you get different missions at increasing complexity and different locations.

Phil: And there's a little bit of story behind it, too.

Phil: There's some double-crossing where some of the people that were your victim in the last level are now contacting you, unknowing that you were the one that perpetrated the crime, but asking you to do something to the person they suspect had the job done sort of thing.

Phil: It has a nice soundtrack.

Phil: It's got sort of a bluesy, not bluesy, it's got a jazz-type soundtrack that, you know, has saxes in it.

Phil: So think of the theme song to Grand Theft Auto and lots of TV crime shows, you know, sort of a melancholy jazz beat.

Phil: And yeah, so the campaign is fantastic because basically they give you a mission.

Phil: And the mission might be you have to get these three...

Phil: Well, the first one's pretty straightforward because you've just got to knock something down.

Phil: Okay, so you've got to figure out how to knock it down and get out of there.

Phil: I don't think that one's timed, but maybe.

Phil: The second one, they email you a request to go and extricate these three very important valuables from this site.

Phil: And so I'm thinking, oh, okay, so this has got stealth mode in it.

Phil: It's not just all going to be smashing stuff up.

Phil: But then you go to the site and you're like, okay, because the second you take the first thing, it's going to set off an alarm.

Phil: And from the time that alarm is set, you now have seconds to get the other two things and get to the escape vehicle.

Phil: So it really does come down to preparation.

Phil: So you have to basically walk the site, check out how you're going to do the job, scope it out, and then you can do as much destruction as you want, as long as you don't activate the alarms.

Phil: So you can bulldoze things out of the way.

Phil: You can cut holes in walls.

Phil: You can do all this stuff so that you can get it perfectly timed from the time you grab that first thing.

Phil: You now know you have to perfectly execute getting to the second and then to the third.

Phil: But because it's a physics-based game, things can go horribly wrong.

Phil: So then you learn from that and you apply it to the next run.

Phil: So in that way, it's a rogue-like as well, though you don't...

Phil: It's probably actually a real rogue, because you don't get to keep anything.

Phil: You have to go back to the start and do it again.

Phil: And the only thing you get to keep is your experience from having done the first run.

Phil: So yeah, I've been finding it delicious.

Phil: It's a sort of game that you might beat a level and then go into the second one and not beat it.

Phil: And you're like, okay, well, that's enough for tonight.

Phil: I'm turning it off.

Phil: But then the next day, all through the day, you're thinking about how you could be doing that job.

Phil: Like, how am I going to pull off this heist?

Phil: Yeah, so it really is a heist game more than anything else, but with the creative addition of it being a physics-based destruction game.

Phil: And let's not put value in the fact that it's just fun to knock things down.

Phil: I haven't touched the sandbox element of it.

Phil: Did you only go into the sandbox?

Tom: No, I played the first mission and I went into the sandbox.

Phil: Okay, good.

Phil: So, yeah, I would encourage you to plow ahead with it and maybe we can give some further impressions down the road.

Tom: The only thing I would add is in the mission, at least, my one criticism of the physics is the gravity seemed a little bit weak because in demolishing this building, they must have used some super powered mortar because I ended up with a brick structure that was essentially a few bricks on the bottom holding up the majority of a wall.

Tom: And when I saw that did not cause it to collapse, I had to start demolishing it from the top.

Tom: Even though I would suggest that logically destroying it from the bottom should have been the more efficient method.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Phil: That is the thing that you will learn as you go, that you do have to...

Phil: Well, there's different ways.

Phil: So, for example, in one level, I had to knock down a building and get some valuables out from out of it.

Phil: So I start the level.

Phil: I go, oh, there's the valuables.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: That must be the place I have to knock down.

Phil: I'll get the valuables out first, which is not an easy process, right?

Phil: It involved ripping holes through walls, getting in a forklift, dragging this thing around because it was a heavy safe, and then pushing it into the water, which was not easy at all.

Phil: Then I was like, okay, now I can just leisurely destroy this house.

Phil: So you can destroy, it's about the percentage of the place that's destroyed.

Phil: So if you just say, okay, I'm going to destroy all of the walls, but there's still one thing over in the corner holding up the roof, then that's not going to fall down.

Phil: You would logically think that it would fall down.

Phil: So structural physics, I don't think are applied to this, which is a shame, but it doesn't make it any less enjoyable.

Phil: I then spent the next minutes destroying this house, completely destroying it.

Phil: And I'm like, why isn't it saying, I've now used pretty much everything in the whole game, every vehicle I can find to destroy this thing, I've been hammering it with a sledgehammer.

Phil: Why isn't it this?

Phil: So I go back and read the instructions again, and they describe the building that I'm supposed to be knocking down, which is a completely different one.

Phil: And so I go to the end of the marina, and it's a small cabin, which is the size of a bedroom.

Phil: So if you jump in the water, and then using your sledgehammer, smash the eight pillars that are under it, it sinks in about seven seconds.

Phil: So my lesson was learned.

Phil: But it was, hey, I got a story out of it, and it was still enjoyable.

Phil: And you can find valuables and collectibles in pretty much every setting that you go into.

Phil: So yeah, look, I think this, I would urge you to push on and give it an additional go, because you won't quite get it from just playing the first level.

Phil: It does build over time.

Phil: And yeah, it's basically, I guess if you had to describe it as a sandbox game with puzzle elements, that's played in the first person perspective.

Phil: And so, yeah, everyone's obviously already heard about this game.

Phil: It was released in, well, probably

Phil: It must have been, must have had an early beta or something.

Tom: Yeah, it was in early access for a long time.

Tom: I think during early access was when it had the most hype.

Phil: Yeah, well, it came out on Windows in and then came to the current generation of consoles in November.

Phil: But yeah, it had a lot of hype, so I'm totally enjoying it.

Phil: I hope you persist with it so that we can talk about it another time.

Phil: Other impressions?

Phil: It's your turn.

Phil: What else have you been playing?

Tom: I've also started and played it even less than Teardown Mafia Definitive Edition, and it has been an interesting, if frustrating, experience so far.

Tom: I installed it, and on starting up the game, I was greeted by...

Tom: No, not even before, sorry.

Tom: I installed it, and before installing it, I had to sign an end loser.

Tom: End loser.

Tom: That's the way of doing it.

Tom: End user license agreement before installing the game.

Phil: End loser.

Phil: E-L...

Phil: End loser license agreement.

Phil: Ella, okay.

Tom: Perfect.

Phil: Yep, so I don't get it, man.

Phil: Definitive Edition, is it a collection of all three Fantastic Mafia games?

Tom: No, I think it's a remake of the original Mafia.

Phil: Get out!

Phil: Really?

Tom: You hadn't heard of this?

Phil: Well, I mean, looking it up, I mean, it came out four years ago.

Phil: So yeah, four years ago, I probably did hear about it.

Phil: Why would they remake the original?

Tom: Because it's the best one.

Phil: Okay, so what?

Phil: You got to ride around town going km an hour?

Tom: With an excellent physics model.

Tom: It could have been a racing game.

Phil: Yeah, it could have been.

Phil: Hey, look, we both love Mafia.

Phil: We've reviewed it on this website.

Phil: So I just thought that if it was going to be the Mafia Definitive Edition, it would have been all three games remastered.

Phil: But I thought it was a recent one.

Tom: I think there's remasters of Two Now as well.

Phil: So this came out on PlayStation Windows.

Phil: I assume you're playing it on Windows.

Tom: That's correct.

Phil: And did you get it through Steam or what other platform?

Tom: I got it on Humble Choice, and it's a Steam Key from Humble Choice.

Phil: You're old friends at Humble Choice, so you still...

Tom: One of their Steam Keys that worked.

Phil: So you're a long-suffering user of their servers, and if people don't know, go back and listen to episode

Phil: You're sticking with them, though?

Tom: For the moment, we'll see.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I think they're the people who should be being sued.

Tom: Maybe I can get a bunch of other disgruntled people together and start a joint committee decision.

Tom: Joint action.

Phil: Joint committee decision.

Phil: That escalated fast.

Phil: When's the execution?

Phil: Her towers.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, Mafia definitive edition.

Phil: All right.

Phil: So, you installed it and loved it.

Tom: So, I signed the end, the hour.

Tom: I saw the game.

Tom: I opened the game.

Tom: Signing to take two to play the game.

Tom: I wasn't sure if I had a take two account or not.

Tom: So, I decided to see if I could skip it and said no.

Tom: To my surprise, it went to the main menu.

Tom: Didn't just close the game or anything.

Tom: I moved the mouse towards new game, at which point the game crashed.

Phil: Just crashed.

Phil: So, did you go back and try again with having created a K loser account?

Tom: No, I immediately uninstalled it.

Phil: Well, this is short impressions.

Phil: Holy cow.

Phil: I thought about it.

Tom: I'm going to give it a rating if I can find the diagest.

Phil: It's okay.

Phil: I'll lock it in.

Phil: But you do need to diagest to make the actual determination.

Phil: So, while you're doing that, I'm looking up Mafia when we've talked about it before, if it was on this podcast or the one that came before it, while you get your dice.

Phil: We talked about Mafia on episode

Phil: We talked about Mafia on episode

Tom: Which I believe you were a fan of, and I was definitely not a fan.

Phil: Oh, I was a big fan.

Phil: Now, episode we did a review of Mafia

Phil: Episode we did a review of Mafia

Phil: Yeah, so it's all over the place.

Phil: Episode

Tom: Mafia I'm still yet to play.

Phil: All right, so in the scores archive, you gave Mafia a out of

Tom: That must have been a dice roll.

Phil: And someone wrote a review of it.

Phil: So, yeah, that's cool.

Phil: Okay, someone, meaning either me or you.

Phil: Okido, have you found the die of destiny?

Tom: I've not found the die of destiny.

Phil: Oh, Jesus Christ.

Phil: Okay, all right.

Tom: So we're going to go for a random number generator.

Phil: Oh, good.

Phil: That won't take much time at all.

Phil: Efficiency, that's what we're known for, The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this for about...

Tom: Here we go.

Tom: our experience of Mafia Definitive Edition gets a out of

Tom: So it's officially better than Mafia which I think is actually fair enough.

Phil: I think that's a pretty good score.

Phil: We're going to get into a game now that I was very surprised to know that I had played it before because I thought I had not played it before.

Phil: Now, this is an old game, but it's a notable game, and I think it's worth talking about still.

Phil: We gave a full review of this in episode at about the hour and minute mark.

Phil: If listeners want to go back and listen to it.

Phil: Actually, you know what?

Phil: I'm just going to include it at the end of this show so you can hear that.

Phil: So, Dear Esther was made by The China Room, I believe.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And again, this was a game that was developed, I read the credits, by about or people.

Phil: I was interested to see that Kelly Santiago got a credit on this one.

Phil: Do you know who Kelly Santiago is?

Tom: I should.

Phil: You should.

Phil: I'll jostle your memory.

Tom: I definitely recognize the name.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I'll jostle your memory.

Phil: She, along with Jenova Chen, she was one of the chief creative leads over at The People That Make Your Favorite Game.

Phil: That game company.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: So, I was surprised to see her name on there.

Phil: And now, I originally...

Tom: I think there is...

Tom: If I can remember the name of the YouTube channel correctly, an excellent interview with her by, I think it's called SUP Homes.

Phil: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Phil: You recommended that to me.

Phil: You, yeah, SUP Homes.

Phil: S-U-P Homes like Sherlock Holmes.

Tom: Sherlock.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Now, Dear Esther was released back in for a PC.

Phil: And I thought I had never played it.

Phil: But now that I've got this gaming PC, I was looking at my Steam library.

Phil: I'm like, well, I know that Tom speaks highly of Dear Esther.

Phil: I should probably give it a go.

Phil: And so I started playing it.

Tom: I thought you had already played it.

Phil: Well, OK.

Phil: Well, this is the story, man.

Phil: And so I start playing it.

Phil: I'm like, yeah, I remember I probably only played like one second of this and then I hated it.

Phil: And then that was it.

Phil: If you go back and listen to Episode I absolutely hated the game.

Phil: I played it and I hated it.

Phil: And then you also agreed that you hated it.

Phil: I'm like, what's going on here?

Phil: Because like the revisionist history of The Game Under Podcast is that you actually think this game's all right.

Tom: So I think it's great that there's two Dear Estes.

Tom: Yes, there's the original Dear Esther.

Tom: And then there's Dear Esther, the remake.

Phil: It's a mod, right?

Phil: Because you hated it as well.

Phil: So here we go.

Phil: We're going through this review and about minutes into it, like, yeah, this game's horrible.

Phil: We both hate it.

Phil: Then you're all, you pull your Tom Towers.

Phil: But then I played a mod of the game.

Phil: And this game is the best game I've ever played in my life.

Phil: That's my Tom Towers impression.

Phil: Not very good.

Tom: It's officially the sixth best game of the decade.

Phil: Okay, we'll get to that, though, right?

Phil: So you go on and sing its praises.

Phil: Now, you still had criticism of it, but the mod and its graphical flourish somehow, and you can probably speak to this, somehow elevated the game in a way for you that the original did not.

Phil: Now, the game that I'm playing is the basically director's version, right?

Phil: So this is the one where they've come back and they've redone a lot of stuff, and they admit that in the thing.

Phil: They say, hey, look, you know, someone modded the game, and we went back and we incorporated a lot of the stuff that they suggested because it just made sense and it made it a better game.

Phil: So that's the game I believe that I played this time.

Tom: So you played the retail version, not the mod?

Phil: This is the collect collector's edition.

Phil: So I've got the original one, and that's a different steam listing from the game that I played.

Phil: So the game I played is called whatever it's called.

Phil: And yeah, so I played it.

Phil: And then this time around, I actually landmark edition.

Phil: So I don't know what it's called, but it was it was.

Phil: Yeah, I don't know what it was called, but it's actually it's the one that's got the developers commentary.

Phil: So after I beat the landmark edition.

Tom: So what we discovered is I need to play it a third time.

Tom: Landmark edition is apparently a remake in the Unity engine.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Whereas I believe the original was the source engine.

Phil: Yeah, that's correct.

Phil: Yeah, I know that the original was the source.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: And you're right.

Phil: The landmark edition is in Unity.

Phil: And I enjoyed it this time through, or at least, you know, as much as I can enjoy a walking simulator because the gameplay in Dear Esther is minimal.

Phil: It is a first-person, quote, adventure game.

Phil: And all you do is walk and discover.

Phil: And if you think about like one of my favorite parts of Half-Life I'm going to say my single most favorite part of Half-Life was the part where you're walking up the coast through the heather of a coastal North Atlantic country.

Phil: And it just gave you time to sort of just take in nature and all the rest of it.

Phil: This game was obviously heavily influenced by that spark.

Phil: Now, they took it in other places, which we'll get to.

Phil: The game is only, I played it in minutes, -

Phil: And it was so surprisingly short.

Phil: So I went back and played the last chapter.

Phil: I think there are four chapters or maybe five.

Phil: I went back and played the last chapter with the commentary on.

Phil: And I'd encourage you to do the same as well.

Phil: It was, yeah, it was really interesting.

Phil: But I'll just let you run for a while with Dear Esther, because I'm still confused, because at the end of the episode you were still happy to give it quite a low score without using The Dive of Destiny.

Phil: And I just don't, and I went to look, you haven't reviewed it on our site.

Phil: It wasn't in your top games of the s.

Tom: That's incorrect.

Tom: It's, no, maybe it wasn't in my personal ones.

Phil: It was mentioned, but it wasn't.

Tom: No, it is officially the sixth best game of the s.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, you're going to have to...

Tom: That's the, I think, the ones we agreed on together.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Oh, the one we agreed on together.

Phil: Yeah, you didn't use it in your personal list, though.

Tom: That's right.

Phil: Why is that?

Phil: You said it was...

Tom: I just want to quote from the...

Tom: Because I can't remember.

Tom: So I'm just going to read my own words to see if I've jogged my memory.

Phil: You know this...

Phil: Wait, wait.

Phil: You know where this is heading, this whole Game Under project, because now Apple is perfectly transcribing our podcasts.

Phil: You can go listen to any of our podcasts.

Phil: They're perfectly transcribing it.

Phil: All you need for an AI-generated voice is minutes of someone talking just by themselves, which we have several thousand hours of.

Phil: Here you are saying you don't know what you wrote.

Phil: You don't know what you think, but you're just going to read what you wrote.

Phil: You know where this podcast is heading.

Tom: That's how you know that I'm not yet AI, because if I was AI, I would have just lied.

Phil: Yeah, that's right.

Phil: And you'd have seven fingers.

Phil: Okay, you are correct.

Phil: So I think maybe if we were going to include a game in our collective top it must have excluded it from being included in our personal ones.

Phil: So yeah, because I don't see my favorite game of all time, Papers, Please, in our collective top

Phil: Because remember, our top now I remember.

Tom: That's based on what is the most influential.

Phil: Yeah, and you saved Dear Esther for that list.

Tom: But reading through it, reading through it, I think that I must have had positive feelings, even for the remake, the original remake, because I write and I quote, Ultimately, the experiment was undeniable success, commercially and critically, and for me personally.

Tom: And it does say down the bottom, this was written by Tom Towers, so I presume it must have been written by me.

Tom: The retail version is a beautiful little jaunt through the English countryside, even more enjoyable than Fable, for instance, because it allowed you the time to wander freely and enjoy the scenery, which could also be rendered in much greater detail due to not having to dilute its visual and architectural design to fit more complicated gameplay mechanisms.

Tom: And the original mod with its simple audio design and musical accompaniment, as well as its starker, darker visual design, which allowed for one's imagination to complement its aesthetic, just as this disjointed, incomplete writing style allowed for the imagination to complement its narrative, is a masterpiece of video game lyricism and atmosphere, even greater than the retail version.

Tom: But alas, this is the original version.

Tom: It came out last decade, so it cannot make the list.

Phil: You know, I was going to say, what makes Dear Esther inarguably the greatest experimental game of all time and arguably the greatest indie game of all time, is that regardless of whether your answer is yes or no, you are participating in the experience yourself, the experiment yourself.

Phil: You take on the merits of Dear Esther is the answer to the question Dear Esther asks.

Phil: That's, you know, just something that left to mind.

Phil: Or I was reading your review.

Tom: So I would also add, I would also add, just so we can have even more Tom Towers, Dear Esther content.

Tom: The other reason I think it made the list is, and I quote, the original Dear Esther was part of a Ph.D.

Tom: project, end quote.

Tom: So I think the fact that we've got a game here that was literally someone's Ph.D.

Tom: project says a lot about that era of indie games that came about.

Phil: When you go back and listen to episode we actually have, it's funny because we did a walking game-a-thon.

Phil: In that one episode, we did reviews for Gone Home and The Stanley Parable and Dear Esther.

Phil: Like, that's a lot of content.

Phil: So, but anyway, please join the dots.

Phil: The last time we talked about this game in episode you were lukewarm on it, and then it's come into the sixth best game of the decade.

Phil: What happened?

Phil: What changed?

Tom: Did you actually listen to the audio portion of Dear Esther content?

Phil: Yes.

Tom: Because I'm sure that I enjoyed the original mod a lot.

Phil: You enjoyed the graphics of it, but you still couldn't get over the acting.

Phil: But you said it wasn't the actor's fault, it was the writer's fault.

Tom: The writing, yes.

Phil: And actually in episode you did a lot of Dear Esther impersonations, which I put the music behind.

Phil: Things like this person turned opaque, you know, and you were making fun of the language and poor writing of it.

Tom: Which explains a lot about what I wrote in the top list.

Phil: Yes, yeah.

Tom: But I think my memories of the Dear Esther experience was finding the writing unintentionally very amusing.

Tom: But I do, even in the remake version, I remember quite enjoying just wandering around the environment.

Tom: It was like taking a walk through a park or something like that.

Tom: It didn't, and that's, I think, why I was let down by the writing, because it strips away so much, yet it also has that element to it.

Phil: Okay, this is a game that's years old.

Phil: We will talk about spoilers here.

Phil: I'm going to tell you what I think the game is about.

Phil: I start playing the game completely cold, and I'm like, okay, this is interesting.

Phil: And I'm like, I'm walking through this environment.

Phil: Is that a license plate that's really, really obscured?

Phil: Is that a steering wheel that's really, really obscured?

Phil: That's weird.

Phil: And then later on in the game, I come across some shipping containers that look not like shipping containers at all, but I'm like, oh, these artists have never even seen a shipping container.

Phil: You know, this is way too wide, way too big.

Phil: Oh, a ship is wrecked.

Phil: There's a shipwreck here.

Phil: Oh, and there's parts of cars everywhere.

Phil: Okay, so there was a shipwreck, and then they must have been carrying cars, and then people stole the parts, and that's what I thought all these car parts about.

Phil: Meanwhile, this guy is...

Tom: I was going to say, this sounds like issues with the source engine, which always has a slightly weird sense of scale to it, but then I realized you're playing the Unity version.

Phil: Yep, yep.

Phil: And then at the very start, you don't know why you're on this island.

Phil: You think perhaps at first it's because you're trying to find...

Phil: Your father left some journals and he said to go to this place, and now you've gone to this island and you're exploring it because your dead father has told you to do this.

Phil: That's what I thought was going on at the start of the game.

Phil: Is that a fair assumption for a player to make?

Tom: Well, naturally, I remember the narrative perfectly.

Phil: Yeah, so I was like, okay, so I'm on this island.

Phil: You go into this hut and there's this paint sort of splashed everywhere and you're like, oh, this is kind of weird.

Phil: Okay, am I going to get attacked?

Phil: Because you're playing a video game, you're expecting a confrontation.

Phil: You're expecting conflict at some point, especially in a first person game from this era.

Phil: So you walk around, you walk around, you explore, and then all of a sudden you're hearing what you think is your father's name, I assumed was to be my father, talking about this, that, and the other.

Phil: And Dear Esther, you know, I really, you know, it's just really sad and things are bad.

Phil: You're opaque and, ah, the guy, you know, never knew.

Phil: So, you know, this guy chimes in from time to time as you're walking around this setting in first person.

Phil: And, you know, as the listener, I basically go on, oh, okay, I'm dead, my dad was driving the car, but this drunk shepherd crashed into us, and that's why, you know, this Donnelly fella's a bad fella.

Phil: And then the next chapter is called Donnelly.

Phil: You go through this whole thing, and then it turns out that, no, you know, somewhere along the line, Donnelly wasn't drunk at all, and he wasn't to blame for the crash.

Phil: And then I'm thinking, oh, okay, well, this is weird.

Phil: So I'm definitely not going to interact with anyone in this thing, but now I'm just trying to figure out why my dad, you know, what he did.

Phil: And apparently you're thinking, oh, this guy, my dad came to this island because he was so morose that he had to write all these diaries about how, you know, I died and he's trying to settle, deal with the grief of it.

Phil: First blaming Donnelly, but then, you know, it's his own fault.

Phil: And then ultimately, from me, again, the listener's perspective, I'm thinking, oh, okay, well, the dad actually was responsible for your car crash, but then at the very end, it sounds more like he's not your dad at all, that he's actually your boyfriend or husband or partner.

Phil: And that this guy ultimately killed himself because he couldn't reconcile with the guilt of having been responsible for your death.

Phil: That's what I got from it.

Tom: I think that sounds about right.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: I remember the whole car crash thing.

Tom: I think my impression was always that it was a partner rather than a parent.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: And that's just my...

Phil: I was just thinking that probably because of my personal experience, I was thinking that this was a younger person who's trying to explore why their parent has died because you don't immediately jump to your partner dying unless you're playing that cancer game.

Phil: But yeah, so I listened to the audio commentary of the last one and she was saying, this is the co-creator.

Phil: And she's like, oh yeah, me and the dude that made this game, we'd done other things together before, but not video games.

Phil: We'd made other things together before, but not video games.

Phil: And I think like what?

Phil: Like cakes?

Phil: What do you mean you've made other things before?

Phil: Children, possibly.

Phil: Interesting, and this is why I'd encourage you to go and play this game with The Common.

Tom: I think for the record, the woman was a musician, I think.

Tom: She's the one who did the music for it.

Phil: Yeah, very much.

Phil: And that's what she was talking about.

Tom: Yeah, I think they were collaborating on music in some fashion.

Phil: The side benefit of listening to it or playing it with the audio commentary on, and I played it through first before doing this, but when I replayed the last level, basically you see these little chat icon type things.

Phil: So the benefit of it is you know exactly where to go because it's like breadcrumbs leading you through the thing so you can listen to the commentary.

Phil: So you can get through a level that may have taken minutes or minutes before in about minutes because you can see exactly where you're supposed to go.

Phil: Interesting, that music that plays in the final chapter is actually playing, I'm not a musician, chords or strings that in Morse code spell Esther.

Phil: So, which is kind of weird.

Phil: But again, she was a musician, so I thought that was creative.

Phil: It's not something I would have thought of.

Phil: When you hear it say it aloud, it sounds like a cheap gimmick.

Phil: But I thought that was really interesting because you're just listening to a song, you're not going like, oh, is that Morse code?

Phil: Even without the commentary, I found the experience, fortunately, short, only an hour and ten minutes.

Phil: I thought it was pretty good for what it was.

Phil: Like you said, it was enjoyable walking through the countryside and, you know, trying to figure out this puzzle.

Tom: And I think that's...

Tom: I think the criticism of the lack of interactivity in it, as I actually did mention in my expertly written top ten Games of the Decade segment for it, is you can say it's lacking in interactivity in terms of the gameplay, but the way the narrative is designed is essentially as a puzzle.

Tom: So there is a form of interactivity that is just as engaging and I think just as occupying as interactivity in terms of gameplay in another game throughout the whole of the experience.

Phil: And if I could say in a sort of weird way, just by simplifying the gameplay to walking and looking, what that forces is the same thing.

Phil: All the gameplay happens in your mind because you're figuring out what's going on.

Phil: That part of your brain that's usually engaged when you're playing a game that takes your full focus is more like when you're reading a book.

Phil: So now your mind is freed up to...

Phil: The gameplay is your mind being let free to sort of try and figure out what's going on here and where do I need to go next.

Phil: So, you know, I've said a lot of derogatory things, probably every derogatory thing that can be said about walking simulators in the past.

Phil: But I think that what Dear Esther pulled off and probably mastered was doing exactly that, giving you enough things to pay attention to in the world, but freeing up your mind to focus and use your imagination to create an even bigger and bigger world that expands and expands and expands the more information it's given.

Phil: So, you know, like you, I initially hated the game, and on the second playthrough, I thought quite highly of it.

Phil: And it would fall into that category of being, like Indica, a game that I would say must be played based on its uniqueness.

Phil: Not to say it's a perfect game by any stretch of the imagination, but it's certainly a game I'd probably give a out of to.

Phil: If not a out of this version that I played, because I wouldn't change a thing about it and I think it's highly effective.

Phil: Now, had it been two hours long, or three hours long, or four hours long, and outlived its welcome, that's a completely different story.

Phil: But, you know, like a perfectly made pastry or petit four, it was a small, delectable thing to be enjoyed, and it didn't outlive its welcome.

Tom: You're feeling very French today.

Phil: I guess so.

Phil: I don't know why.

Tom: I would just add on Dear Esther, I think the other reason it made the top ten list, it's definitely a game that has stuck in my memory all these years later.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: Which can't be said for a lot of games that at the time I may have spoken more highly of, but have not become a permanent or semi-permanent part of my consciousness.

Phil: Yeah, and I think it's because of that part of engaging your imagination perhaps.

Phil: Okay, so, well, that will make sense later.

Phil: We're going to go into Phil's questions for Tom from other people's podcasts.

Phil: I think we've got time for maybe one this week, because we do have to get into Indica Spoiler territory before we close out the podcast.

Tom: Go ahead.

Phil: Okay, so, Matty writes, what Nintendo franchise would benefit most from a mature title rating or even an AO rating?

Phil: So while you think about that, there have been some AO games that have come out on Switch, I'm sorry, on Nintendo platforms before.

Phil: I believe, what was the Rockstar game where you killed people?

Tom: Man Hunt?

Phil: Man Hunt came out on the Wii.

Phil: I think that, no, it wouldn't have had an AO rating because no AO rating ever gets released in America.

Phil: But if you were to take a Nintendo franchise and give it a mature title rating, what would you do?

Tom: Smash Brothers.

Phil: Smash Brothers?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: You're going for quantum?

Tom: Far more gore.

Phil: You're going for, oh, go Mortal Kombat.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: That's a good answer.

Phil: That's a good answer.

Phil: Or would you go with Zelda and make it more Witcher, more Witcher quality?

Tom: Or Zelda and play up the Zelda Link romance angle.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: A bit more TNA, just like in Witcher

Phil: So yeah, I guess for me, you know, you could go Metroid and make it more like Aliens, you know, like make it really gory, grainy and gritty.

Phil: From a mature title writing, yeah, so it would have to be violent and have swears.

Phil: I would leave Mario out of that entirely.

Phil: That doesn't suit him or his universe.

Phil: I think it definitely...

Tom: I think there's a much darker romance story there.

Phil: With Mario and Peach.

Tom: But Bowser and Peach.

Phil: Oh, OK, well, Mario is just a simp for Peach, right?

Tom: We're adding bestiality to the mix here.

Phil: Oh, come on now.

Phil: And Peach obviously knows what she's got.

Phil: And she's not giving Mario any of it.

Phil: And then you've got, you know, she gets kidnapped an awful lot.

Phil: Yeah, I just wouldn't want to touch that subject matter, I'm afraid.

Phil: I think Metroid would be the best one to go for a mature title rating.

Phil: Yeah, and I'll leave my answer at that.

Tom: I think my original answer is still the one I'll go with.

Phil: Alright, well I'm going to give you that there was a quickie.

Phil: We'll do one more.

Phil: Damon writes, What would you ask a future gamer from ten years from now, pertinent to gaming?

Tom: Is there a better version of Sex Toy Doom?

Phil: Okay, I thought you were going to ask has Dear Edith been remastered again?

Phil: Dear Edith in VR is a gimme, surely?

Tom: Dear Esther?

Phil: What did I say?

Tom: Dear Edith.

Phil: Oh yeah, What Remains of Dear Edith Finch.

Phil: You played What Remains of Edith Finch, didn't you?

Tom: Yes, I did.

Phil: That was a good...

Phil: I don't know what you remember of it, but anyway, that's not what we're talking about.

Phil: Seriously though, what would you ask a future gamer from years from now?

Tom: That's my question.

Tom: Or, alternatively, does the Xbox marketing team have a budget they can work with yet?

Phil: I don't know what I'd ask them.

Phil: I'd probably ask them...

Phil: Well, we know that there's not going to be consoles in years, right?

Phil: It's all going to be like Netflix services over, delivered over internet.

Tom: Maybe not, if the Xbox marketing team doesn't get enough to keep Game Pass going.

Phil: I think that there won't be consoles, that's for sure.

Phil: I might ask, who are the major publishers?

Phil: Is Microsoft still making games?

Phil: But then I honestly wouldn't care if Microsoft's still playing games.

Phil: If they're just a publisher with a streaming service, I'd be fine with that.

Phil: Nintendo's obviously still going to be around.

Phil: I guess I'd be curious if Sony still sticks in it?

Phil: As physical things become...

Phil: Like if there's no console, and Sony's an electronics marketer and manufacturer, would Sony stick around?

Phil: And if you look at what they've done in the movie space, even though they own a lot of studios and whatever, they haven't stuck around for streaming.

Phil: To get them excited, they've got to have a piece of hardware in the game.

Phil: So if anyone was going to fall out, I'd say Microsoft is a services company, Nintendo is their own thing.

Phil: And when I say is there going to be a console in ten years, I think if anyone's going to have a console in ten years, it's going to be Nintendo, because kids are still going to want to hold something in their hand, and parents are still going to want to pass something to a kid in the back seat to play.

Phil: So...

Tom: So you are playing the role here of the gamer from ten years in the future.

Phil: I guess I am.

Phil: I'm trying to figure out...

Tom: So where are my answers?

Phil: Okay, ask me any question.

Phil: I'll be the...

Tom: I already asked you two, and I'm yet to receive an answer.

Phil: Okay, first one.

Tom: The first one was...

Phil: Dong Doom.

Tom: Is there a better version of the Doom sex toy?

Phil: No, because no one knows what Doom is anymore.

Tom: I find that hard to believe.

Phil: All the old people are dead.

Phil: We don't care what Doom is.

Phil: It may as well be Pong, which we also don't know what it is.

Phil: Next question.

Tom: The next question was...

Tom: Does the Xbox marketing team have a budget they can work with?

Phil: Yes, they certainly do, because they will be preeminent in the game streaming field.

Phil: Okay, so in we'll go back to this episode of The Game Under Podcast and replay these predictions.

Phil: Come on, give us a prediction for ten years from now.

Phil: You'll be still a young person.

Tom: Ten years from now.

Phil: In you'll still be a young person.

Phil: And I'll still be podcasting with or without you.

Tom: I think...

Tom: Let me see.

Tom: I think people are going to work for Boeing.

Tom: I think for EAA.

Phil: EAA won't be around.

Phil: All these stupid companies are going to get gobbled up by the streaming service.

Tom: I think there's going to be one person working for Valve.

Phil: Gabe Newell, robot head.

Tom: As the admin team, and everyone else will have been replaced by AI.

Phil: I think Gabe's AI will live forever running Valve.

Phil: Friends and foes, we are now going to go into spoiler territory.

Phil: So if you don't want to be spoiled for Indica, I would indicate that you shouldn't, because you should go out and play it and buy it.

Phil: We talked about enough in the last episode that you should know that you should be playing this because it's a completely unique experience.

Phil: So we're just going to talk about it.

Phil: So with that, if you don't want to be spoiled, thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: And we'll see you next time.

Phil: Okay, so...

Tom: Before they go, let's give it a score.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: Let's spoil our impressions with a score.

Phil: Okay, I'm giving it a real score.

Phil: Are you giving it a Die of Destiny score?

Tom: I'm giving it...

Tom: For this episode, we've replaced the Die of Destiny with the AI version, so I'm going to give it another randomly generated score.

Phil: Okay, I'm going to give it a out of

Tom: I'm going to give it a out of

Phil: So, Indica, tell me what you think the story...

Phil: Tell me what you think just the story, not the meaning, what the story is of Indica.

Tom: What do you mean the story?

Phil: The story.

Tom: What literally happens in the story?

Phil: The plot.

Tom: The plot.

Tom: So, a nun is or believes she's possessed by the devil, which is causing her to come across as a very incompetent nun, who none of the other nuns like.

Tom: So, they fire her.

Tom: She's sent off to deliver her own notice, declaring to the church that she's been fired.

Tom: Along the way, she meets a fugitive who has a gangrenous arm that for potentially real, potentially unreal divine intervention has not yet atrophied to the point...

Tom: Sorry, has not yet developed to the point where he's died.

Tom: She goes along with him in an attempt to escape.

Phil: Or is she still trying to deliver the note, though?

Tom: Yeah, until she reads the note, that is.

Tom: So, she continues with him to try and deliver the note, then reads the note, at which point she suffers a crisis of faith.

Tom: And he also suffers a crisis of faith when they reach this...

Tom: What is it?

Tom: The...

Tom: Is it a sensor?

Phil: Factory?

Tom: No, they're looking for a divine object.

Phil: Oh, the kudits.

Tom: Yeah, the kudits, yes.

Tom: So, they're going to get this kudits, which is going to remove her possession and possibly give back the gangrenous man's arm, but certainly help them both in their religious crisis.

Tom: They get to this kibits, it fails.

Phil: Kudits, kudits, K-U-D-E-T-S, not kibits.

Phil: Not kibits.

Tom: We've been talking too much about cooperatives this episode.

Tom: The kudits.

Tom: So, they get to this kudits.

Tom: The kudits fails to achieve either purpose.

Phil: Now, the kudits is a religious artifact.

Tom: That's right, yes.

Tom: The kudits fails to achieve either purpose.

Tom: So, he becomes worldly and sells the kudits.

Tom: And she loses her faith.

Phil: And that's the end of the story?

Phil: Okay, so the way I see the narrative was that she was a young lady.

Phil: She was seeing a...

Phil: She was engaged romantically with a...

Phil: Not engaged like Mary, but she was interacting with a...

Phil: Okay, she's the daughter of a bicycle shop owner.

Phil: And he's a bicycle thief.

Tom: That's the back story.

Phil: And he's a bicycle thief.

Phil: He's stealing from them.

Phil: He convinces her to try and steal money from the safe.

Phil: When the father finds out that they're stealing money from the safe, she says she doesn't know who he is, which results in her father killing her boyfriend.

Phil: She is then sent away to a nunnery to pay penance and try and get rid of this evilness of her.

Phil: And she has this guilt that's over her.

Phil: She starts to see hallucinations.

Phil: They try to give her confession, and she smashes away the bread and won't take the body of Christ into her.

Phil: This prompts the chief nun, whatever they're called, to then give her a letter to deliver to...

Tom: Mother Superior.

Phil: Mother Superior says, go deliver this letter to the bosses over in this other town.

Phil: And you just go.

Phil: Now, she doesn't feel...

Tom: She's essentially getting kicked out of the kibbutz.

Phil: Kicked out of the nunnery.

Phil: Now, she doesn't know this.

Phil: She's like, oh, well, this is a change of tone.

Phil: At least I'll get out of here.

Phil: She's been hallucinating, and she hears the voice that turns out to be what she thinks is the devil.

Phil: Perhaps.

Phil: On the way there, she interacts with an accident, which results in her finding a fugitive.

Phil: She has some level of medical training, and she finds some medicine that helps soothe his pain.

Phil: And basically, while they're travelling, he's helping her.

Tom: Before we move on...

Phil: Well, this is my narrative.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: But go ahead.

Tom: What did you think of the train crash scene?

Phil: I thought it was good.

Phil: I didn't think it was realistic, but I thought it was really good.

Phil: The killing of the soldiers who were maimed, with the proud grandstanding by the dude who was in charge of them, or the doctor who was trying to put them down, you know, and give them peace.

Phil: I thought it was really, really visceral.

Phil: And yeah, I thought it was gritty.

Tom: I thought it was definitely, it was a highlight for me.

Tom: I found the whole scene very much the epitome of dark Russian humour.

Phil: Yeah, and we've got to say...

Tom: With the soldiers being given morphine as they're dying, and the train locomotive simultaneously sinking while they're on it.

Tom: Yeah, I thought it was great.

Phil: It was fantastic.

Phil: Again, this is a third person game, just so people can keep that in mind as well.

Phil: So she basically steals the morphine and the medicine kit.

Phil: The fugitive helps her escape.

Phil: Now they're on a different path.

Phil: So she basically keeps him drugged up the whole time through this, while still talking to the demons inside her head or the actual devil.

Phil: He believes that he's had a religious epiphany, and that is what is causing his gangrenous arm not to kill him.

Phil: I think perhaps his timeline is adjusted, and so he's not actually had it as long as he has, and he is dying on a normal timeline, but he now is deeply religious while she's questioning her faith.

Phil: As they travel through the country, various puzzles appear.

Phil: I find the puzzles to be cumbersome in terms of the game itself.

Tom: That's a very important part of the story.

Phil: But a very important part of the story, which we'll elaborate on later.

Phil: They finally get to the boss of the nuns.

Phil: He gets shot in an altercation because they want to see the coup d'etat.

Phil: You can't see the coup d'etat.

Phil: Dude ends up getting shot because security shoots him accidentally, or maybe the one-armed man, which is funny.

Tom: I think the one-armed man uses him as a human shield.

Phil: Did we joke about the Harrison Ford thing last episode?

Phil: Because he's the fugitive, he's got one arm, he's the one-armed man.

Phil: Maybe we didn't make that connection.

Tom: Actually, I think we did.

Phil: Okay, well, I just made it.

Phil: So, you know, now they're in trouble and they're on the run.

Phil: They go to the coup d'etat, the coup d'etat neither.

Phil: Now, I didn't know about the whole letter.

Phil: I never know that the letter was opened.

Phil: I thought he opened the letter, but he never let her see the content of the letter.

Phil: Now, the letter, of course, was a letter from the nun telling the boss of the nuns that this girl is fired, she refused communion, do whatever you want with her, but she's not coming back to the nunnery.

Phil: So that wasn't clear to me.

Phil: I knew that he had read it and knew the truth, but I didn't know that she had found out the truth.

Phil: Anyway, back to the story.

Phil: The coup d'etat doesn't work.

Phil: She somewhere along the line cuts off his arm to save his life, because that way the gangrenous stuff doesn't spread to his body.

Phil: He tries to join the arm back on while praying in front of the coup d'etat, truly believing it's going to work.

Phil: It doesn't.

Phil: From there, he becomes disillusioned.

Tom: We should add that she, in the factory area, had to cut off his arm.

Phil: Yep, and we'll get back to the factory too.

Phil: So disillusioned, they both escape with the coup d'etat.

Phil: He then becomes disconsolate, ultimately pawns the coup d'etat for four or five rubles, and then spends it all on alcohol.

Phil: She is on the run because of this murder situation, gets caught, allows herself to be...

Phil: goes to jail, allows herself to be raped in return for being released.

Phil: Isn't released because she knocks a shelf on top of him that effectively incapacitates him, though we're thought to believe that maybe the devil did this because he's helping her out the whole way.

Phil: Or maybe it's just a shelf.

Phil: She then flees, runs into the fellow...

Tom: Maybe it was the shelf that helped her out.

Phil: Maybe.

Phil: She ran back to the fellow who sold the coup d'ets, and I don't remember what happened after that.

Tom: I think she goes to the pawn shop.

Phil: Oh, yes.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Goes and tries to retrieve the coup d'ets, sees herself in the mirror, and in fact, instead of seeing her reflection, realises that there's...

Phil: realising there's no religious value or spiritual value to the coup d'ets, sees...

Phil: looks into the mirror and no longer sees herself, but sees the devil.

Phil: And then I don't remember what happens.

Tom: That's...

Tom: I think it ends there.

Tom: She then leaves without the kittits.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: And wanders off.

Tom: And I think he comes back because he's bought a trumpet.

Tom: He used to be a musician.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: And can no longer play.

Tom: I think it was guitar or some other...

Phil: Yeah...

Tom: .

Tom: two-handed instrument.

Phil: Yeah, he was a guitar player.

Tom: So he bought a trumpet.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: But the trumpet is broken, so he returns to the pawn shop to try and return it, and she leaves, I believe.

Phil: And his name is Ilya, or Ilya, I-L-Y-A, just for the record.

Phil: And her name is Indica.

Phil: So that's pretty much the game.

Phil: Now, in between there, what I didn't talk about were some of the puzzle elements.

Phil: You mentioned the factory, for example.

Tom: That's right.

Phil: Anything notable about the factory?

Tom: I think actually the most notable puzzle, I don't think it was in the factory, but it was certainly near it, was one where you are navigating an area where the perspective changes depending on which pathway you take.

Tom: And you have to figure out how to fall through a hole and land on another surface rather than fall through a hole to your death.

Phil: Yep, that was after the factory.

Phil: So yeah, it took a while to figure that one out.

Phil: It was actually a lot like, well, it was like Portal, the Valve game.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: And I think that was a highlight for two reasons.

Tom: One, it was quite interesting figuring out, seeing how things changed based on where you moved.

Tom: And it was a visually very impressive experience.

Tom: And also, you've got the devil walking around the area as you're going around.

Tom: And if I remember correctly, he's actually giving you the solution to the parallel.

Tom: If you follow him, and I maybe remember this incorrectly, but from my memory, if you follow him, that is actually the correct way to go to be able to fall to the right perspective.

Phil: Yes, and I was kind of lost in that for like the first probably seconds.

Phil: I was like, hang on, what's going on here?

Phil: Because you fall through the...

Phil: It doesn't look like a portal.

Phil: You go through the...

Phil: Oh, I'll just jump down there, and then you end up on the ceiling or on the wall.

Phil: But you don't realize that it's the same room that you were just in.

Phil: And so you ultimately have to figure it out.

Phil: I didn't follow the demon.

Phil: I never saw the demon.

Phil: But, you know, I'm not saying to be wrong.

Phil: I'm just saying, you know...

Tom: You're not saying I'm hallucinating.

Phil: No, no, no, not at all.

Phil: And like Super Mario Galaxy, there are platforming puzzles, and they repeat some of them, like the use of a crane is pretty consistent about throughout the game.

Phil: There's three instances where you use a crane, but you're using it differently each time.

Phil: They give you these little quirky puzzle type things to figure out, but they're never quite the same.

Phil: I don't like puzzles in my game, so I'll just say that.

Phil: So discount whatever I'm going to say, but I didn't really appreciate those ones.

Phil: I thought some of them, but they were all interesting.

Phil: And we've got to say that this game, while we've described it, sounds like a certain type of game, it's actually quite surreal.

Phil: So the puzzles that you're doing are surreal.

Phil: When you go into the factory, I never figured out what the hell was going on there.

Phil: They had these giant fish and these giant caviar tins, these tins which are about half the size of a human.

Phil: So let's say they're about three feet tall and about three feet wide that you have to platform over.

Tom: Technically, the fish weren't that big.

Tom: They looked a bit like shoe nuts.

Phil: No, no, the big fish that were coming through the side, remember getting pulled on those big chains?

Phil: Yeah, they were like the height of a person.

Phil: No, no, you missed something.

Tom: Where were the whale ones?

Phil: They had fish in there that looked like...

Tom: Well, whales do exist.

Phil: They looked like cod.

Phil: They had scales.

Phil: And they were being dragged through on a drag chain, these huge fish.

Phil: It was weird, and that never got addressed.

Phil: So that's the narrative.

Phil: My thing on it is that I think that the fugitive, Ilja, was a sincere and true character, and everything that you saw on screen was true in what was actually happening.

Phil: I think that his epiphany was brought about by the physical pain in his body.

Phil: Like he was basically...

Phil: Whatever he thought was happening because of hallucinations, because of medical implications.

Phil: I think Indica...

Phil: I don't think the devil existed in this game.

Phil: I think it's all in her head.

Phil: I think that when the devil is talking to her, that's just her dealing with the guilt of killing her boyfriend by denouncing him, like Judas.

Phil: And I think she's just fighting her own personal battles.

Phil: She's a girl or a young woman who's just in doubt of her faith.

Phil: And this is the mechanism for her to figure out what's going on.

Phil: So that's my whole take on the whole thing.

Phil: I think the sexual element of the game is also quite interesting.

Phil: There's lots of allusions to her being attracted to elements of Ilya.

Phil: And the devil taunts her in that fashion and says, Oh, you like his tanned arms and you want this and you want that.

Phil: And I think the fact that she became a nun, not by choice but by punishment, she's a normal young person.

Phil: Obviously, she's going to have a sexual interest.

Tom: I think one of the most interesting parts of that, which again is very Russian, and could be controversial, but I don't think anyone seemed to notice it, because of what perspective it came from.

Tom: But one of the most interesting scenes from that perspective is, this is all taking place during some form of civil war.

Tom: And when she meets Ilya, she goes into a house, and there's a soldier in there, who is about to rape someone, or so we think.

Tom: And she gets rescued by Ilya, and the devil is saying, wouldn't you have liked that to happen to you, or something along those lines, bearing in mind that she is a heterosexual woman, who has been stuck in nunnery for X number of years.

Phil: Right.

Phil: And then I think also the, quote, you know, rape scene, where she basically says, hey, there's got to be something I can do to you, do for you, to the guard at the end of the game, hey, you know, maybe there's something I can do for you, that you'll let me out of here.

Phil: So, you know, in that way, I don't think that was necessarily a rape.

Phil: It was certainly a male figure taking advantage of his authority position, which is abusive, but, you know, she was the one, not that he wasn't already thinking it, but she was the one that said, hey, you know, like, maybe if there's something I can do for you, and you'll let me out of here.

Phil: And then after the act, where he's doing up his belt and everything, she's like, okay, well, now you're going to let me out, right?

Phil: And when he said no, that's when, quote the devil, that's when the wardrobe got involved and crushed him.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So I think that was like a really complex type theme that I haven't seen in any video game at all.

Phil: You talk about a mature game.

Phil: Like, you know, this is like really good storytelling in my perspective.

Tom: I think another example of that, which one might argue had sexual undertones to it or not, depending on whether it's a reference to No More Heroes or not.

Tom: Something, another mechanic in the game is, as you're going through the world, you are, if you come across religious icons, you get experience and you get to level up.

Tom: And there's like this money currency, coins jingling sort of sound accompanying it, which reminded me very much of the sound effects in No More Heroes, where Travis Touchdown is healing himself by masturbating.

Tom: And in what I think is brilliant, at the end of the game, when she is reaching her anti-religious epiphany, you get to the final religious icon you encounter, the most important of them all.

Tom: Yep, exactly.

Tom: And you can level up as much as you want by button mashing, essentially.

Tom: Again, very much like No More Heroes.

Tom: And given it is, I think, very clearly a story about losing your faith, I thought that was...

Tom: Let's just go with the No More Heroes theory.

Tom: One, it was absolutely hilarious way of doing this.

Tom: But two, I think it was presenting, I think, prayer as a masturbatory coping mechanism, essentially.

Phil: I think that, you know, there's plenty of symbolism that can be taken from this game.

Phil: You know, I could probably write a thousand essays saying, oh, well, this means this and this means that, which would also be a masturbatory philosophical exercise.

Phil: But, you know, I think that's...

Phil: We talked about the gameplay in the last episode.

Phil: Certainly, you should...

Tom: Yeah, don't misunderstand.

Tom: Here at The Game Under Podcast, we're % pro-masturbation.

Phil: Yes, let it all out.

Tom: And might I just add, particularly in the age of OnlyFans, I'm pretty sure that, I mean, masturbation is presented as a metaphor as something that is only for yourself, that other people are not interested in.

Phil: Right.

Tom: It's essentially criticising you for being too personal.

Phil: Is it not?

Tom: And therefore isolating yourself from society.

Phil: Well, there you go.

Phil: You've gone and done the symbolism for us.

Tom: But I'm pretty sure, I'm pretty sure that people enjoy watching other people masturbate.

Phil: We talked about gameplay in the last episode, and we didn't go into spoiler territory about that.

Phil: We've talked about the story, obviously, a fair bit in this.

Phil: I don't want to go on to spoiler territory for the gameplay.

Phil: I don't know that we necessarily need to talk about the gameplay in terms of spoilers.

Phil: I think, unless you just...

Tom: I think we already did with the scene we were just talking about.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: And then, of course, the scores mean, the points mean nothing, which, you know, I think is a metaphor for, you know, all the good deeds you do throughout life, thinking that it's going to give you some sort of religious score in heaven isn't worth anything.

Phil: And they even say early on in the game that the points don't mean anything.

Phil: It's a waste of time.

Phil: But even so, I did light the candle every time I saw a religious artifact.

Phil: I lit the candle and the sign of the cross and prayed.

Phil: Did you go and...

Phil: Did you see the one time where you lit a cross or lit a candle and did this...

Phil: and didn't get a reward?

Tom: When was that?

Phil: So in the factory, if you go off onto the side a little bit, there is a candle and you light it.

Phil: And instead of being a religious depiction...

Tom: Karl Marx.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: It's Karl Marx.

Phil: And you get no points for that.

Phil: It's a wonderful...

Phil: I don't know.

Phil: You are always critical of writing, so I'm not going to say it was a wonderfully written game, but I'm going to say that the story in this game is...

Phil: the storytelling in this game is fantastic.

Phil: And when I say storytelling, I'm not talking about the words or the plot necessarily.

Phil: I'm also talking about the actions that you do, some of which we talked about in the last episode.

Tom: I think the writing in it was excellent.

Phil: Great.

Phil: That's good to hear.

Phil: Do you think that the devil actually exists in this game, or do you buy into my thing that it's all in the head?

Tom: I think very obviously the devil is her own thoughts.

Phil: The developer described the character as a combination of mature intellect and sometimes childish simplicity and naivety.

Tom: I would say that's a description of the character.

Tom: It's definitely a description of the character.

Phil: Did he describe Ilya?

Phil: I don't have that in front of me.

Phil: Now, again, we talked about the D elements of this game and the D elements of the game in the last episode.

Phil: What do you think that was about thematically?

Phil: Why do you think those D elements were in the game?

Phil: Is it part of the iconography of this form of religion?

Phil: Or am I reading too much?

Tom: I think it was a way of breaking up the game play.

Tom: But also, I would say that's the main reason.

Tom: I think probably also as a way of aesthetically giving events from the past a retro sort of feel.

Phil: Yeah, I was thinking maybe more mythic, because when you think back on your memories, they're not quite photoperfect.

Phil: I mean, mine are, but maybe also all of those D levels were really difficult and required leaps of faith.

Phil: The Frog one required a leap of faith.

Phil: There was other ones.

Phil: The original platformer required leaps of faith, you know, jumping on platforms that didn't yet exist.

Phil: And that was repeated back in the pond level as well.

Phil: The driving game, I didn't think added much to it at all, but perhaps what it was saying there is that you think you're in control, but you don't actually have much control.

Tom: I don't know.

Tom: I didn't have any issues with the controls.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So there's got to be something in there.

Phil: But obviously the leaps of faith are quite, you know, for someone who doesn't speak English as their first language, Dimitri Svetlov, you know, that's too easy of a thing not to use in a D platformer.

Phil: And for it to repeat itself in two different of those D stages was obvious.

Phil: And so, yeah, I think...

Tom: Before we move on from the story, we were in the previous segment on Indica talking about some of the marketing of the game and some of the classic commentary on the Steam forum and in reviews.

Tom: And I think it holds up to the likes of Nietzsche and Dostoevsky.

Tom: It's not really...

Tom: It may be influenced in some ways by both of them, perhaps aesthetically by Dostoevsky, perhaps on a surface level by Nietzsche in terms of the way the devil is presented and the part of Indica's psyche that she represents.

Tom: But I think unlike both Nietzsche and Dostoevsky, it's really just a simple story of two people, not just Indica, but I think Ilya as well, who lose their faith...

Tom: Actually, I'll correct that.

Tom: I think the interesting thing about it is, you've got two characters, one of whom loses their faith, and one of them who does not.

Tom: Because Ilya loses his religious faith, but as we heard from the beginning, his main thing in life is that he is a musician.

Tom: And in the end, what does he do?

Tom: He sells the religious artifact to be able to buy an instrument.

Tom: And at the end, when the instrument does not work, he's still trying to solve that problem.

Tom: Whereas Indica, who has lost her faith, is essentially left in sort of like a blank state, where we don't know what's going to happen to her next, or what she's going to do.

Tom: Whereas Ilya is essentially still in the same position.

Tom: So I thought it was as a story of losing your faith with the opposite occurring, where someone is essentially continuing on with an obsession as their way to cope with the world, and ends up stuck essentially in the same place.

Tom: I thought it was very interesting.

Phil: I think so too.

Phil: You know, Indica did some less than good things, and so did Ilya.

Phil: And she was full of doubts, and obviously Ilya's moral compass was, you know, not pointing to due north.

Phil: Perhaps neither of them were worthy of a miracle.

Phil: And because neither one of them showed repentance at the end.

Phil: Like, did Indica ever take on her responsibility for the death of a former romantic, you know, we'll call her, call him a lover?

Tom: North of the victim of the wardrobe.

Phil: Right.

Phil: So like, in a way, it's like, maybe the credits didn't work because these guys, well, you know, like in Christian faith, it's not about, it's not about deeds, right?

Phil: So maybe if their faith should have, under the modern philosophy of Christianity, their faith should have been enough.

Phil: It's not by actions, it's by, what do they say?

Phil: It's not by deeds, it's by faith, right?

Phil: So in this case, if it...

Tom: Well, they would be orthodox Christians, so would they not?

Phil: Right.

Phil: Yeah, definitely.

Phil: But I'm saying if Ilya, Ilya was delivering all the faith, and that wasn't rewarded at all.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Indica had no faith, but had plenty of actions and plenty of deeds.

Phil: You know, she's taking care of this guy.

Phil: She's caring for him.

Phil: She did all the work that nuns asked her to do without complaint.

Phil: But she didn't have faith at all.

Phil: So I think perhaps, like if you wanted to do this through the current Christian philosophy, you know, Ilya would have been rewarded at the end for demonstrating his faith with no evidence.

Phil: No evidence.

Phil: Like he's putting this dead arm up to his arm trying to connect it like I think four times in total before he gives up.

Phil: You know, he was definitely showing blind faith.

Phil: But you know, even though his prior deeds were probably more criminal than Indica, but Indica did all the deeds but had no faith.

Phil: So I don't think that there was a satisfactory payoff at the end of the game if you wanted to satisfy that traditional Christian view.

Phil: But like I'm...

Tom: I think it's trying to do the opposite.

Tom: Like I said, I think the main thrust of the story is losing faith.

Tom: Not within a Christian context, but within an atheist context.

Tom: It's going from being a believer to no longer being a believer.

Phil: I don't know that Indica ever believed.

Tom: I think she believed in an attempt to deal with what occurred.

Phil: Yeah, but I don't think she believed.

Phil: I don't think she did.

Phil: And when you think about the fact that at the start of the game, the devil jumps out of the nun's mouth to knock the body of Christ, the bread, from her hands.

Phil: And obviously...

Tom: Sorry, what I mean is, I think she attempted to believe.

Phil: Yeah, I do too.

Tom: Hence why the devil is there, as her psyche, telling her not to.

Tom: Because it's not what she truly believes.

Phil: Let's say the hallucination at the start of the game, with the nun thing, running out of the nun's mouth and knocking the body of Christ out of her hand.

Phil: Let's say that didn't exist, which is what a normal, human, reasonable person would say, because obviously that couldn't have existed in our understanding of how things work.

Phil: Which means she actually did just physically reject confession.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Which is like a death sentence, basically, for a nun.

Phil: Like, we have to assume that she did that, consciously or not.

Phil: The depiction in the game is that it wasn't a choice of hers, that this is something that happened to hers.

Phil: But, you know, she's making herself a victim for an action that she elected to take on.

Phil: You know, I just don't think she's a person of faith.

Phil: I don't.

Tom: By the same token, we could say, to our understanding, this could not have occurred.

Tom: To a believer, it could have occurred.

Phil: Yeah, I don't think so.

Phil: I think she's a bad person.

Phil: I mean, she stole from her father.

Phil: When she got caught, she pinned it on her lover.

Phil: Her lover got shot because she denied who he was.

Phil: She could have said, Dad, hey, I know this guy.

Phil: This isn't what it looks like.

Phil: Please, don't do anything rash.

Phil: And it would have been saved.

Phil: I think she's a bad seed from the start to finish.

Phil: And all the good things she does is just deeds without faith.

Phil: But here's to more Russian games.

Phil: The bottom line is we want more video games from Russians.

Tom: I agree.

Phil: Anything else?

Tom: I think that pretty much covers it.

Phil: Well, we've gone a little bit long here, and it's going to go even longer once I include part of episode

Phil: So thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since so there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, use our comments section from our homepage underneath the story for this episode.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Tom: And don't forget to masturbate while you play Doom.

Phil: Well, with that, we're gonna continue on with our indie game, March, a game that we've both played, Dear Esther, right?

Phil: Yeah, well, the setting, everything about this game is melodramatic.

Phil: You know, the setting, the acting.

Phil: So I didn't find that to be out of place.

Phil: I didn't find it enjoyable.

Tom: It, but the base level of melodrama with the narration is fine.

Tom: That's in tune with the rest of it, I would say.

Tom: But when it gets to an emotional moment in the writing, a more dramatic moment in the writing, he then goes completely over the top and does start attempting to genuinely act.

Tom: And it's just incredibly bad.

Tom: And it's not only incredibly badly done because the acting is awful and the writing isn't written to be read in that way aloud.

Tom: But on top of that, it doesn't fit with the tone of the rest of the game.

Tom: The comparable thing to what it would be, actually, where it might fit and have a direct comparison to something in the game, is the rather overwrought and much like some parts of Golem hitting you over the head with a shovel where you're moving through the environment and not the graffiti, but where they've got like, say, a tire stuck on the ground completely incongruously.

Tom: That's basically the equivalent in the performance of the narrator, which once again in the environment, that takes the melodrama a little bit too far and is way too overstated.

Tom: Whereas in the writing, if you actually listen to what he's being said, there's a very small range to the amount of drama and all the peaks that it reaches are generally built up very slowly too.

Tom: It's not some sort of obvious over the top, here's a tire stuck in a fucking rock face.

Tom: What do you think this means type thing?

Phil: Right, right.

Tom: Now-

Phil: Yeah, I'm sorry, but I mean, I'm listening to you and I mean, we just talked about Gone Home earlier in the show.

Phil: Stanley Parable we've given a great deal of time to.

Phil: It seems like these indie, these small teams, for a while there, they were stuck on D platformers with a unique art style, right?

Phil: And now you look in the course of one year, you've got the Stanley Parable, Gone Home and Dear Esther, all games that are first-person action games or first-person exploration games, more importantly.

Tom: Or first-person puzzle.

Phil: Yeah, first-person puzzle games.

Phil: And I don't think they've really, on the D platforming side, they never really achieved great platforming with the exception of Super Meat Boy.

Phil: Right, I mean, they were always leaning on their art style or their story or, oh my God, you know, sort of stuff.

Phil: And with this first-person puzzle exploration genre, with Stanley Parable and Gone Home and Dear Esther, they really haven't added anything at all.

Phil: And they get so much critical praise all three of these games.

Phil: And to me, it's completely inexplicable.

Phil: And it's only because I think there's a whole two generations of gamers at this point that have been brought up on first-person shooters being the preeminent genre.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And the very fact that someone is doing something different with that first-person genre.

Phil: So rather than giving credence to a game like Mirror's Edge, which is a game that, you know, or Breakdown, you know, games that revolutionarily challenge the first-person notion, it's these games.

Tom: Or Anti-Chamber.

Phil: Or Anti-Chamber, indeed.

Phil: Or Portal, right?

Phil: So give credit where credits do, but these three games are completely unspectacular.

Phil: The best of them is The Stanley Parable because of its humor.

Phil: Gone Home is a fucking mess.

Phil: And this game, when I played it, just to give my impressions of it, it was incomprehensibly horrible.

Phil: It was just mind-numbingly incomprehensibly horrible.

Phil: And I was disgusted with myself that I had paid any sort of money to play it.

Phil: It gave me nothing at all.

Tom: Do you think this also might have something to do with adventure games having, as far as the general consciousness, completely disappeared?

Tom: Because if you look at Dear Esther, Gone Home and Stanley Parable, all of them are doing, they're not really doing anything new within the first person perspective full stop anyway, because first person perspective games, first person perspective adventure games like this have always existed.

Tom: Not always, but for a very long time.

Tom: Would you put mist in that category?

Phil: Would you put mist in that category?

Tom: I would.

Tom: You can always consider it something different given that it's not a full motion thing where you're literally walking around, you've got to click on the like.

Tom: But even within this sort of very artsy thing, But even within this sort of very artsy thing, if you look back a few years further back than this, for something that is basically exactly the same style of thing, and it might be terrible, I haven't played it, but you've then got The Void as well, which is once again, and probably more of an adventure game than these two, but once again a very artsy first person game where you just go around walking around looking stuff, but I believe The Void does have some puzzles in it, but I'm not sure about that.

Tom: So it's not as if they're even actually doing anything new or innovative or exciting at all, because when you look at Portal or Antichamber, the great thing about them and even Portal isn't necessarily that they're just doing puzzles in first person, it's what they're doing with those puzzles that is great and notable about both of them.

Tom: And the fact that these games are in first person isn't really relevant because they're not really doing anything with that.

Phil: With that, we should probably describe the mechanics of Dear Esther.

Phil: You're basically walking around in first person, first person exploring, first person exploring and you know, it reminded me greatly of the game that came out in the Xbox generation, Call of Cthulhu, which was a first person exploration game with some very light shooter elements to it, which was also lauded by those who had a great appreciation for video games, but otherwise pretty much ignored.

Tom: Yep, and just one other game that Dear Esther brings to mind is Proteus, which I would put above all Dear Esther, Gone Home, Stanley Power, which is perhaps not saying a lot, but it actually deserves, I would say, the credit for doing something slightly different, at least within the sphere of mainstream gaming, because there are a huge amount of art games from years gone by that have done the same exact sort of thing as Proteus.

Phil: Is Proteus a juice game?

Tom: Juice?

Phil: Juice Van Dongen?

Tom: No, no, no, that's prune.

Phil: Prune, prune.

Tom: That's a racing game, that's nothing like these words.

Tom: That's a genuine, proper great game.

Phil: Yeah, is it a first person racing game, though?

Tom: No.

Tom: It's a ball on a tube racing game.

Phil: Ball on tube.

Phil: Oh, it's a, yeah, okay, tubes glider, yeah.

Tom: Exactly, so Proteus, which we did talk about on an old episode, what sets that apart from all these three games, which are pretty much going, at least within the world, for the exact same thing, is the only thing in Proteus is the world.

Tom: You walk around the world, that is literally it.

Tom: And it doesn't attempt or say it is anything more than that whatsoever.

Tom: Despite, in theory, being incredibly pretentious, all the pretenses that it puts forth, it succeeds in because it never says that it is more than what it actually is.

Tom: And it does all the things that Dear Esther, Stanley Parable, minus the humor, obviously, but in terms of the world, and Gone Home Do, but it doesn't dilute that pure, interesting feeling of exploring a world.

Tom: So that it then is a relatively unique experience because that is literally all there is in the game.

Tom: Whereas in Dear Esther, the world, there isn't just the world.

Tom: And you've also got the narration, which is applying a narrative to the world, open as it is, it's still adding another element to it in a very overt manner.

Tom: And then within the world as well, it's attempting to present, to add to the narrative as well with the really stupid stuff like sticking tires and crap like that everywhere.

Tom: And in Gone Home, of course, it's got an overt narrative as well.

Tom: Yet, they're still attempting to present the world in many ways in exactly the same way as Proteus, which I don't think necessarily works.

Tom: If you're going to make a game where all you do is walk, and that's basically the only game mechanic as it is in all three of those games.

Tom: And the other elements are gonna be pretty flimsy.

Tom: And the humor allows Stanley Powell to get away with this a lot.

Tom: So it's not as much a problem with Stanley Powell.

Tom: But if you're doing that, then I think if you're sticking in extraneous stuff, it then takes away with what you're immediately interacting in with the game, which is the world itself.

Tom: So it then makes it harder for you to immediately engage with what is the crux of the game play and your interaction with the game.

Tom: Yep, so the reason the writing is so terrible is first of all, is the language, which is really, really badly written to be let aloud because the word choice generally goes for obscure ways to describe simple actions, which results in some really, really jagged and jarring language so that the narrator, for all his flaws, had absolutely no hope whatsoever to read aloud what was written and make it sound at all good whatsoever.

Tom: For % of it.

Tom: The language is just absolutely awful.

Tom: And the second problem is, of course, the obscure content.

Tom: And the third major problem with Dear Esther, and I'm basing all this on my first attempt to playing this, which was last year when I was attempting to get through a lot of games quickly.

Tom: The major problem with Dear Esther, though, is in fact related directly to the basic gameplay mechanics, and that is how unbelievably slowly you move in the game.

Tom: Because once again, if you're, Don.

Phil: No, you're absolutely right.

Tom: If you're attempting to engage with what is genuinely brilliantly illustrated world, the folly, the movement of the folly, the degree of movement is just brilliant in all the plant life.

Tom: The colors are great, and not only the colors are great, there's a consistent change in colors as you go over the entire game that flows from one thing to the next so brilliantly.

Tom: And within those individual basic colors, there's always a really great amount of detail and changes like at the start of the game where you're in a mainly area full of vegetation, sand and rocks where it's mostly greens and grays and dull sort of colors.

Tom: Here and there, you come across details like flowers and stuff which prevents that from becoming just over the top and boring and later on, when you're in the caves and it's predominantly blue, you then come across interesting yellows and things like that.

Tom: The word itself is if you took that word by itself visually, it is a brilliant work of Kitsch art, Kitsch visual art where it's completely and utterly meaningless and artistically uninteresting.

Tom: But at the same time, if Kitsch art is genuine art and great art, what the fuck does that matter because it's still inherently enjoyable to look at, right?

Phil: Well, yeah, they do the whole punch list thing.

Phil: They, it's almost on the level of the black velvet painting kind of thing.

Phil: But I mean, okay, so that's fine.

Phil: Without a good game behind it, this is first-

Tom: And this is what I'm saying, this is what I'm saying.

Tom: So the world is beautiful.

Tom: But then unlike in Proteus, they're sticking a game on top of it.

Tom: So in Proteus, you move really slowly as well.

Tom: But because the only object is to just look around the environment and see what you can find and enjoy it until the game ends after minutes or whenever it automatically stops, it doesn't matter.

Tom: Here, you're attempting to go somewhere, right?

Tom: So if you wander around the island, exploring it and enjoying it because it looks so nice, and you then end up in a corner, you look back, you've just looked through there, right?

Tom: So you're then thinking, I've now got to spend fucking minutes walking meters through the same thing, which might not be as bad if all you're doing is just enjoying the scenery.

Tom: Because if you go for a walk, walking back home is never that, it's still enjoyable, right?

Tom: It's part of the journey.

Tom: But if you then got it at the back of your mind, well, actually the game wants me to go here.

Tom: It completely changes what you're then gonna think of if you've walked into a corner and that's not where you were meant to go.

Tom: You're then gonna be fucking pissed off.

Tom: And I remember, I got up to the part with the shipwrecks and where you're then meant to go is up a hill, so it's not immediately obvious.

Tom: And I ended up walking around that area like three times or something.

Tom: Each time becoming more and more pissed off so the likelihood of me finding the correct path decreased every single time.

Tom: And just think to myself, if there was a fucking sprint button here, not only would have I found where the fuck I meant to be going minutes ago, this game would not be nearly as fucking annoying as it actually is, right?

Phil: Yeah, and the fact of the matter is, whatever they were trying to say with this game, people do sprint in real life.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: I mean, particularly if you're in a spooky scenario like this where you're racing to get to the truth, you're not gonna casually stroll along.

Phil: You're gonna be racing.

Phil: You're gonna be grabbing at rocks.

Phil: You're gonna be climbing up desperately to see this thing that you're trying to find, you know?

Tom: And think about this, because at one stage-

Phil: It would add to the tension.

Tom: Yep, and think about this, because near the end, the narrator, and this is perhaps a spoiler, breaks his leg.

Tom: So imagine if you'd be able to run up to that point where he breaks his leg, and from then on, you had to walk.

Tom: You might have become then engaged in the world and the story so that it didn't matter.

Tom: But even if it became a huge pain in the ass, which probably still would have, at least there's some narrative reason and explanation for that being the case, that is gonna then draw you further into the story, right?

Phil: Right, it's the old Gears of War thing where they make you walk slow with your finger to your ear while they load the next level, you know?

Phil: You know you're not doing it for any reason other than for them to load the level, so you're not actually listening to whatever they're telling you because you're just like, oh, this is cheesy.

Phil: You know?

Phil: So with this game, yeah, what else do you have to say about it?

Phil: I mean, to me, this game was the most pointless game I've ever attempted to try and beat.

Phil: It was just a complete and utter waste of time.

Tom: Yep, well, as I was gonna say, those were my first impressions when I originally played it, right?

Tom: Yep, so then I came back to it recently to finish it after that famous moment of getting lost, which was previously mentioned, and immediately figured out where I was wanting to go.

Tom: And my opinion on the game actually began to change, which pretty much blew my mind, I have to say, because at this stage, when I went back to it, I fucking despised the game, right?

Tom: Exactly as you did.

Tom: But then when I started to play it again, and just thought, well, fuck this, I'm not really gonna care about the story, because it is pretty much a load of bullshit anyway.

Tom: Or the world itself, because the movement gets in the way of enjoying the world.

Tom: So I'm just gonna enjoy it as a walk through something that looks pretty, right?

Tom: So the first thing I noticed was two notable things about the writing.

Tom: The first is three actually, notable things about the writing.

Tom: The first is the language isn't actually as bad as it appears at first.

Tom: Certainly as language written to be read aloud, it is still a failure.

Tom: But if you're reading it as prose, it's actually successful, because there is a reason for the choice of words, not simply for the sake of obscurity, but to create a certain feeling, because what's illustrating is when they describe something like someone dying as being rendered opaque, which is, I'm not saying that's a particularly good thing, but it is justified, because what it is illustrating is the protagonist, who is probably not actually the protagonist, disassociating his grief.

Tom: So all the moments where he's talking about, and we're gonna be going to spoiler at this stage, all the moments where he's talking about his killing of Esther, except in a very, very few brief moments, the language is completely in the vein of disassociation, where, which you might find done in many, many different ways.

Tom: Like for example, we were talking about it with the Call of Duty drone scene, right?

Tom: Where people were using disassociating language, right?

Tom: So this is exactly the same thing here, which is, once again, pretty impressive for writing in a game.

Tom: The second thing is, the rhythm of the writing is exceptionally good, which doesn't come across in the narration.

Tom: One, because the word choice just stands out as sounding like utter shit.

Tom: And two, it's a flaw in the narrator, because reading through bits of the script, that should really be easy to read aloud and make sound sound okay apart from the word choice.

Tom: But certainly in terms of rhythm and cadence, it's written perfectly fine.

Tom: But thirdly, the most shocking thing about the writing that I discovered was, it contains genuine voice in the writing, which frankly, I can't think of a single game that I've played containing.

Tom: And most games, it's hard for there to be a voice in writing because it's just a script.

Tom: And scripts are deliberately voiceless because they're attempting to create character voice, which doesn't usually actually work, and is almost never achieved in any medium.

Tom: But nevertheless, they're deliberately avoiding having any voice within the script.

Tom: Here, the writing, and it is mangled very much by the narrator, but the writing actually has genuine voice to it, which creates a genuine momenting and flow to the writing, and illustrates the characters, the two characters, surprisingly well given what they're working with, and given the presentation, I should say, where it's using very small narrative snippets of stream of consciousness.

Phil: Would it be worth it to play the game just for that?

Tom: I wouldn't say, it's definitely not worth it to play this version of Dear Esther just for that, absolutely not.

Tom: But, I mean, that's pretty fucking shocking to me, at least.

Tom: As I say, I cannot think of a single game with writing which contains a genuine voice in it.

Phil: Hmm, I'd really have to think about that.

Phil: There surely should be some other instance.

Tom: Well, it wouldn't be surprising if there isn't, because genuine voice in writing that is a completely genuine thing, straight out of the author, whether it's illustrating the characters or the author themselves, is incredibly rare in any form of writing.

Tom: It's not just in video games.

Tom: In the vast majority of article writing, even if the writing is genuinely great or brilliant, writing actually has no voice beyond what is being constructed in the writing by the pros.

Tom: Pros, construction and voice are two separate entities.

Tom: And the genius of voice, and to me why voice is the only mark of genuine talent in writing, is because what voice is, is managing to convey information or feeling through writing, not through the pros or the poetry.

Tom: Which means you could construct, you could have two people construct a section of pros and do it technically exactly the same.

Tom: And the person with genuine voice would be able to create something completely and utterly different.

Tom: It's similar to the sort of thing that Hemingway goes on and on about, but never does in his own writing because he is a talentless hack, where he's saying a great writer can deliberately remove information from writing and still have it conveyed to the reader if the author was great and knew it was there.

Tom: Whereas a bad writer removes the information they're ignorant of, right?

Phil: Right, right, right, yep.

Tom: Which is the prose way of looking at it, which you can deliberately do that in prose, but it becomes an artificial feeling.

Tom: And it's a different experience when you're reading something that's done that deliberately by someone who is a skillful writer and has learned this skill, to when you're reading it by someone who's talented and does it effortlessly and naturally and automatically.

Phil: Do you think the first-person perspective adds to that or underscores the use of voice?

Tom: Well, we're gonna get to this now because I'm gonna move into talking about the mod a bit, which where this is relevant because the big difference between the mod and the actual game is the fidelity of the world.

Tom: In the mod, the mastering at first appears absolutely terrible, not just visually, but aurally as well.

Tom: The music is way, way too loud.

Tom: The narration is too quiet.

Tom: The sound effects are louder than both of them.

Tom: It's really poorly mastered at an audio level.

Tom: And visually, it is as well, but maybe this is deliberate because why the mod version of Dear Esther succeeds and the remake fails is the lack of fidelity in the world.

Tom: So in the mod, a lot of the game is pretty much a silhouette.

Tom: When you're outdoors or in a cave, what was that?

Phil: Oh, I'm just surprised by that.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: You can basically see almost nothing.

Tom: Everything is really dark.

Tom: It's hardly detailed at all.

Tom: If you're moving to an environment and a torch gets turned on, then you can see things perfectly clear.

Tom: So it's not just that I had my brightness too low, obviously.

Tom: So when you're walking down, for example, say a ravine with trees growing up into the sky that's lighter than the ground, when you're looking up at those trees, they're literally a silhouette.

Tom: They're just black against a dark background.

Tom: Whereas in the game, they're perfectly detailed and %.

Tom: You know, you can see everything perfectly clearly.

Tom: So what this allows the writing to then do is to add all the emotion and narrative context and feeling to the world, so that then the world and the writing complement each other, rather than basically being two completely clear and obvious things that may as well be completely unrelated to the other.

Tom: So because the world is so rudimentary and simple, then the writing absolutely benefits the world so much.

Tom: And while the world in the mod version of Dear Esther is completely ugly and uninteresting, if you were to look at it in terms of detail, when you then combine the two with the really simple details, then they both complement one another.

Tom: And then because the world provides a really simple base for the writing, then the terrible language of the writing isn't as jarring either, because you've then got something that is already really, really garish, which is basically a mixture of contrast, which is what silhouettes are, so that the two completely complement each other perfectly in an exactly the same manner.

Phil: So the mod, is it difficult to obtain?

Phil: Is this something that you have to tweak your computer for, or install other engines, or is this now available?

Tom: The only issue with the mod is having to put up with Steam's bullshit modding system, which required me to re-download Steam SDK, despite having installed, which was about gigabytes or something.

Phil: Holy cow, yeah.

Tom: So apart from the bullshit valve modding system, you can just go to ModDB and download it with no problems whatsoever.

Phil: And the audio, does it remain poor throughout?

Tom: Absolutely, and I think the best two reasons to play Dear Esther is the actual, the remake is simply because it looks pretty and the music is very good as well.

Tom: And the music, I would say is much better in the sequel.

Tom: It is a lot more complex and subtle in the mod, apart from the terrible mastering, it's a lot more of percussive pianos and more obvious horror music and that sort of thing.

Tom: But once again, it fits perfectly with the mod.

Tom: If you're only to be master better because the mod is very much about stark contrast.

Tom: Whereas the main game is all about meanless subtlety that never actually comes together.

Tom: But if you were to listen, I would say it's not worth, you wouldn't wanna play the remake over the original for the music, but I would say you might wanna listen to the soundtrack on Bandcamp or something.

Phil: Okay, so I mean, that's a pretty good synopsis of not only the full game, but also the mod.

Phil: I've obviously already given you my opinion of it.

Phil: I'd give the game probably a in that it did not crash my computer, but it did take up some of my bandwidth cap.

Tom: Didn't Gone Home get a one for not crashing your computer?

Phil: It got a one, but it also had the good audio, which gave it a .

Phil: So this one just gets a because it was a complete waste of time.

Phil: I would have been better off spending my money going to the store and buying a garden gnome.

Phil: And then, because at least then I'd have the satisfaction of smashing it against the pavement on my way out of the store.

Phil: This game provided no satisfaction whatsoever.

Phil: It made me hate video games slightly more.

Phil: And since I love video games, it had hardly any impact on me whatsoever.

Phil: So do you have a score for this one?

Tom: So you're not a fan of garden gnomes?

Phil: Well, no, I don't like the cheeky way they look at you.

Tom: So does this stem from some childhood trauma?

Phil: No, no, not at all.

Phil: Not at all.

Phil: I just don't like them.

Phil: I don't like their attitude.

Phil: I don't like the way they dress.

Phil: I don't like the way they put their noses up in the air.

Phil: And they pretend to be the common man, like, oh, we're good around the garden and everything.

Phil: But all they do is stand there, but they don't do anything at all.

Phil: They're mere perfunctuaries.

Tom: And you complain about me with America.

Phil: I do.

Phil: You know, I mean, it's about time we got onto this gnomes.

Phil: The gnomes, man.

Phil: Someone's gotta do something.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: So this game is worse than smashing a garden gnome.

Tom: Well, smashing a garden gnome is pretty good.

Phil: Yeah, pretty satisfactory.

Phil: So.

Tom: Yeah, so I'm now gonna give it a score and giving it a score is hard because the second time through, probably, gone.

Phil: My prediction is two.

Tom: You're saying a two?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: It's hard to score for me because probably I enjoyed going back to it more than I enjoyed the Stanley Parable at times, I must say.

Tom: Because the Stanley Parable's humor does only go so far.

Tom: And the world in Dear Esther at least looks consistently good apart from shoving car tires into your face.

Tom: Now, the final thing, the stupidest fucking part of Dear Esther is the end where you don't even get to climb the fucking tower yourself.

Tom: What the fuck is that?

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I don't.

Tom: I mean, the whole game is get into that fucking tower and climbing the fucking tower, right?

Phil: Yep.

Tom: You get to the goddamn tower, that's your fucking-

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Go on.

Phil: It has to be some artistic point, which makes it even worse, quite frankly.

Tom: Yeah, it's just so fucking stupid.

Tom: I mean, surely that could have let you climb that goddamn tower.

Phil: They're making some sort of artistic choice, man.

Phil: I mean, I guarantee they're taking control away from you because at this point, you would have no control.

Phil: You know, whatever.

Phil: So give it a score.

Tom: I am, and that made slightly more sense in the ending of the mod, at least.

Tom: But the score, as I said, it's hard to score, given that I'm so tempted to give it a higher score than the Stanley Parable, but I gave that a six, right?

Tom: So that's impossible, obviously.

Tom: Obviously.

Tom: What, I gave Gone Home what?

Phil: You gave Gone Home a three.

Phil: A two, yeah.

Phil: I gave it a one, you gave it a two.

Tom: Well, that's easy, and I'm giving it a four.

Tom: It is twice as good as Gone Home because the music is better and it looks better.

Tom: Because while Gone Home used music well, fuck s feminist punk.

Tom: Fuck that shitty music to hell.

Phil: All right, well, if you're not gonna take this exercise seriously, we'll accept your four out of which is almost mediocre.

Tom: That's right.

Tom: Can I give this sequel a score?

Tom: Yes, yeah.

Tom: The mod, I mean, and I forgot to say, Gargondyp Singh's prediction for Dear Esther was a one.

Phil: Right, right on.

Tom: So, it was close.

Phil: Yep, closer to me than you.

Tom: Yep, close.

Tom: I'm going to give the mod version a which I can, in good conscience, rate higher than the Stanley Parable.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, good for you, mate.

Tom: Yep.

Tom: And trust me, I wanted to hate it, just as you did.

Tom: Believe me, I tried my best.

Phil: Well, with that, we bring this episode of The Game Under Show.

Tom: No, we don't, technically.

Tom: No.

Phil: You can follow me at GameUnderPhil on Twitter, or you can go to gameunder.net, where you can leave a comment about this show.

Phil: But we want to hear about your opinions of what we've said and also your opinions on the games.

Phil: And the easiest way to do that is just to tweet me at GameUnderPhil on Twitter.

Game Under Podcast 156

Stream below or right-click and download You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:42 Tom has something to say about Episode 124 Obits

0:08:19 Phil's Summer Steam Sale Haul

0:13:17 News - MS Increases Game Pass Subscription costs

0:21:00 News - Man With 6 Inch Sword Gets Arrested

0:24:51 News - Ubisoft vs. Musk

0:30:09 News - Nintendo Clamping Down on IP Distortion

0:36:27 Investigative Journalism - Tom Exposes Humble Bundle

0:48:21 Phil's Questions for Tom from other People's Podcasts.

0:54:45 What We're Playing - Aperture Desk Job

1:04:30 Indika - Both Hosts

Transcript
Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I am your host, Tom Towers, and I am joined, as always, by Phil Fogg.

Phil: And I've just realized my beer is about to run out, and the other beer I have is beyond my arms reach.

Phil: My name is Philius Cleve Fogg, you can call me Phil.

Phil: Thank you for joining The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running video game podcast, at least so far as we know.

Tom: And what you're hearing now is a break while he goes to get his beer.

Phil: Got it.

Phil: Now I need a bottle opener.

Phil: You just proceed.

Phil: Now, I was recently, for whatever reason, listening to an old episode of ours, where for new listeners, we do obituaries on the show when notable people die, not just in the video gaming world, but in the world of sports, politics, philosophers.

Phil: And we always pause respectfully to obiturize them.

Phil: And episode combines all of those obituaries into a single show.

Phil: And I reminded you, Tom, that we did this show, and you said you wanted to mention that at the top of this one.

Tom: Well, I gave it a listen, and it gave me a few thoughts on the state of comedy today because-

Phil: I'm sorry, you must have misunderstood.

Phil: These were obituaries.

Phil: This was-

Tom: That's right.

Phil: This is the other end of comedy.

Phil: This was tragedy.

Tom: I think there was a little bit of comedy involved in it.

Phil: Well, perhaps.

Tom: As there should be in the comedy of life, death is a part of the comedy of life.

Tom: So naturally, when you're obiturizing someone, you should include a little bit of comedy, I think.

Tom: But nonetheless, wasn't so much death that it made me think about, but comedy, because I think in that show, there were a lot of potentially offensive and controversial statements that were made and some jokes that were pretty nuanced in their satirical content.

Tom: And it got me thinking about the slew of both famous and non-famous comedians who have made a career out of whining that they can't say what they want, or previously had a career as comedians and now in their old age, instead of continuing to practice comedy or come up with brilliant new ideas, turn their career into just one long unending wine fest, complaining that people are stopping them from saying what they want to say, and people are getting offended by them and complaining that they're racist or sexist or whatever else, when actually what they meant was this, and no one could be less sexist or racist than them.

Phil: Well, I think it's a convenient excuse.

Phil: Comedians have to be of the time for them to be relevant and to be humorous.

Phil: You have to be able to relate.

Phil: People have to be able to relate to the things that you're trying to say, and I'm not talking about relatable humor.

Phil: I'm talking about being able to comment on life and make people laugh.

Phil: Some topics are timeless, like death, but I do think it's convenient for some comedians that are perhaps aging out to go, oh, kids today, I can't be funny because they won't let me talk about the funny things.

Phil: There's a great podcast, which I'd recommend called Why Are You Laughing?

Phil: And it goes over the history of comedy and talks about topics such as these.

Phil: But I'll give a modern comedian some credits.

Phil: He fell in his s, Bill Burr.

Phil: And I find him quite funny, and he doesn't make excuses, because he found himself being shackled by this stuff and at some point went, what's the point of doing this if I'm not gonna be funny?

Phil: And he manages to keep himself relevant.

Phil: I've got to say, a lot of his act is drifting towards the when I was a kid and these kids today's type stuff.

Phil: But yeah, I mean, there are people who fight back, but there's certainly few and far between.

Tom: And that's really my point.

Tom: I mean, these people who were once great comedians or claim to presently be great comedians, usually had a career and I'll just give two examples here because we're willing to name names on The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: That we are.

Phil: That we are.

Tom: Jerry Seinfeld and John Cleese, both are great comedians who produced shows that were standout shows that were in some ways, in the case of Jerry Seinfeld, were nothing like the other shows of its time.

Tom: And in the case of John Cleese built on other people's works, and I don't mean this as a criticism, in a way that was able to take to an even larger audience strains of comedy that were going at the time.

Tom: And that's a skill and achievement in itself that he was able to translate what was slightly less mass appeal comedy to a mass audience and convince producers to be able to make it.

Tom: But both of them would certainly, and they would have spoken of the difficulties they had in being able to produce their shows and their work, how they wanted to at the time, yet they succeeded in doing it.

Tom: Now, apparently, they expect that perhaps because they succeeded in the past, they should be able to do whatever they want and receive the same support or audience adulation regardless, which to me merely demonstrates that as a comedian, you are now a complete and utter failure because you're no longer willing to actually fight for what your vision is.

Phil: I imagine if an editorial writer for a newspaper, if there was still newspapers, an editorial writer just basically, their column every week was, well, imagine if Christopher Hitchens was still alive and every week he wrote an editorial that says, well, I can't really talk about what I was gonna talk about because it would offend people.

Phil: And boy, oh boy, is that sad.

Phil: But, you know, comedians, aging comedians have had a number of excuses.

Phil: I mean, if you look at Bill Cosby certainly had no excuse.

Phil: So that's why he's in jail for what he did off the stage.

Phil: But on the stage, when he stopped being funny, he went, oh, you guys, you're working blue, you know, and you're wearing pants that have fallen down to your ankles, you know, you kids today, you know, comedians making excuses for not being funny as they age out is nothing new.

Tom: I would just add that I think we demonstrate as clearly as anyone else that you can say whatever the f*** you want.

Tom: And perhaps our relative obscurity helps us there.

Tom: But if these people truly believed in the importance of comedy and bear in mind, these people are the most pretentious people on earth.

Tom: Jerry Seinfeld, for instance, believes he is the jester to the king, telling the world, telling the world's leader serious truths in a funny way so that he doesn't get beheaded.

Tom: If you have that, go on.

Tom: Now, I was gonna say, if you have that level of belief in the importance of your craft, of your art and what you're saying, then you should be willing to live in obscurity, like The Game Under Podcast, which is not self-censor.

Phil: That's correct.

Phil: Obscurity is a fantastic shield.

Phil: Speaking of fantastic, the Summer Steam Sale is on.

Phil: Summer Steam Sale is on right now.

Phil: These are the games that I managed to pick up.

Phil: For $in total, are you ready for this reading?

Tom: I am.

Phil: And I'm gonna pause afterward, and you can tell me your impression of the game, right or wrong.

Phil: Game number one, Sniper Elite

Tom: I've never played it.

Phil: You've never played any Sniper Elite games?

Tom: No, I have not.

Phil: Okay, well, I can tell you, I played the first minutes of it, and it's fantastic.

Phil: It is not at all what you would expect.

Phil: And the only reason I bought it is because I could see that you had it in your library.

Tom: So it's not a game about elite snipers?

Phil: You would think that it's basically just a sniper.

Phil: I threw it based on the name, that it was a super, semi sniper game where they give you, okay, here's a situation, snipe this guy in this situation.

Phil: Masha has been set up in various Call of Duties.

Phil: And then basically you do that, and then there's a cut scene and you're like, okay, here's another sniper situation, but it's not.

Phil: It's a third person action shooter game, mostly action, even stealth game, where you are having to traverse an environment, sneak up on guys, kill them, stealth style, and get to the point where you can use your sniper rifle.

Phil: So yeah, it's actually a lot of fun.

Phil: And I picked Sniper Elite not only for the price point, because obviously one, two and three are way cheaper, but five is closer to full price.

Phil: But also because it was produced in an era where, I really enjoyed that type of game from a few years ago, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

Phil: So that's Sniper Elite

Phil: Don't be put off by the name.

Phil: The second game I got was Plague Tale, something, something blah, blah, Innocence.

Tom: I'm familiar with that one.

Phil: Yeah, you beat it, didn't you?

Tom: Yeah, I've played both of the Plague Tale games and beaten them both.

Phil: But this is the first one.

Phil: So I've heard nothing but great news about it.

Phil: And I'm hoping I haven't started playing it yet.

Phil: I'm hoping it has vibes of the, was it the game?

Phil: That was the PlayStation

Phil: The Order.

Phil: Yes, that's it.

Phil: The Order, yeah.

Phil: I'm hoping it has vibes like that.

Tom: I wouldn't say it does.

Tom: They're both very different games in terms of gameplay and also setting.

Phil: Third-person action, co-op, not third-person action, but what about?

Tom: Well, The Order was a third-person shooter.

Phil: So is Plague Tale third-person action more along the lines of Uncharted?

Tom: It's more, it's a combination of action and stealth.

Tom: With the emphasis probably being more on the stealth side of things.

Tom: And there's also puzzle-solving as well.

Phil: And a heart-wrenching story?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Question mark?

Phil: Next one.

Phil: Third game on the list was Tear Down, which is the voxel-driven destruction game.

Phil: I did play the first three stages of this, and I'll have impressions of that another day.

Phil: But I've been wanting this game for years, and just haven't gotten it.

Phil: So I'm thrilled to get it.

Tom: And it's now finally been actually released, hasn't it?

Phil: Oh yeah, this is the official thing.

Phil: It's, yeah.

Phil: And they've actually gone on to do DLC content packs.

Phil: They're on where they're expanding on the concept.

Phil: The final game is from the people who did...

Tom: This War of Mine?

Phil: This War of Mine, exactly.

Phil: They are a new game from this year called Indika, which we'll end this show with, giving both of our impressions of, because we've both played it.

Tom: I don't think they made it, but they may have published it.

Phil: Published it, yeah, yeah.

Phil: Indika, and again, we won't talk about that, but that's sort of...

Phil: I don't even want to say it's a cult favorite, but it's certainly gaining some notoriety.

Phil: It was released this year.

Phil: We'll talk about that, both spoiler and spoiler free at the end of this episode.

Phil: So yeah, that's it.

Phil: I think it's the best four-game package I've gotten ever.

Phil: Indika, Sniper Elite Plague Tale and Teardown.

Tom: It's a good variety too.

Phil: Yeah, and all high quality, and of course all being played on my new PC, which I'm absolutely still in love with.

Phil: So with that, we'll go into news.

Phil: We've got breaking news to lead up today.

Phil: The Xbox Game Pass is getting a price increase, even more significantly Microsoft said that starting this week, it will retire Xbox Game Pass for a console tier for new users.

Phil: This will be replaced with a standard tier.

Phil: Yes, it's already gotten complicated, which will include access to a back catalogue of games and online play, but you will not get day one releases or cloud gaming.

Tom: Does this affect the PC version?

Phil: That's a very good question.

Phil: I'll let you look into that.

Phil: But what this does mean, and obviously this has been driven particularly because console sales have dropped double digits year over year for all platforms.

Phil: And my question was.

Phil: They've brought Xbox Game Pass to Amazon's Fire Stick recently, so the streaming service.

Phil: So the question was, well, why would you buy an Xbox if you can just buy Xbox Game Pass on an increasing number of dongles and smart TVs?

Phil: And I guess Microsoft's answer has been, well, yeah, you can for $.

Phil: But if you want to actually get games on day one, we're not going to give those away anymore.

Phil: You're going to have to pay more for Game Pass.

Phil: I think that from a money perspective, this is obviously an essential move for Microsoft.

Phil: I don't know if it's a smart move or not yet, because we just don't know how the gaming community is going to respond to this.

Phil: I know Netflix suffered greatly when they started introducing Tears.

Phil: They lost a lot of subscribers, and sadly for them, that was around the same time that Disney Plus rose to prominence.

Phil: So a lot of people just canceled Netflix and never came back.

Phil: But yeah, this is obviously very big news, because Xbox Game Pass, which has been the deal of the century for a long time, is now looking less of a sure thing.

Tom: I think $per month, that's pretty crap.

Tom: We're getting into the realm of PlayStation Plus.

Phil: Yep, yeah, definitely.

Phil: And this is where PlayStation Plus muddied the waters by having three or four different tiers and no one understanding it.

Phil: Yeah, for bucks, you get an access to back catalog of games.

Phil: Well, yeah, okay.

Phil: And online play, which is always just an absolute ripoff.

Phil: Yeah, the real thing has been saving the money on those day one releases.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: I can't think that this is going to just result in backlash.

Tom: I greatly enjoyed playing the Halo collection for minutes when it came out.

Phil: Yeah, I mean, and we've talked about the impact of game powers before on gaming in general.

Phil: Good, bad or indifferent.

Phil: And the good thing is it exposes people to games that they otherwise may not play like Pentament.

Phil: The bad news is when people get a AAA title for no money, they're not very invested in it, so they might bounce off it in minutes.

Phil: And you don't, therefore, you're not getting any money from them for DLC or long-term engagement.

Phil: So this is sort of enforcing hardcore or people who love games intently to pay a little bit more.

Phil: So maybe instead of bouncing off the Halo Collection in minutes, you're like, well, I did pay extra for this, so maybe I'll stick with it for a bit longer.

Phil: It's a complicated social science problem.

Tom: It is, but I hope this has a similar reaction that Netflix did.

Phil: Yeah, I can't see it having any different reaction.

Phil: I mean, you're hardcore or you're hardcore.

Phil: I mean, you know, there are people that go, yeah, I could get it free with Xbox Game Pass, but it's not on Steam, and so I'll just pay for it on Steam, right?

Phil: I mean, there's a lot of extremes here.

Phil: And how much value are you really getting from the guy who's investing the minimal amount?

Phil: Are you getting brand buy-in and all the rest of it out of him by giving him all the games for free?

Phil: And, you know, this starts to come up, guess where this starts to come up?

Phil: Free letters, call of duty.

Phil: That's actually two words.

Phil: COD, I guess.

Phil: If they're going to start giving away call of duty for free, you know, that's a lot of money.

Phil: That is a lot of money.

Phil: Is it going to attract some users from PlayStation?

Phil: It will.

Phil: Probably not most because people are already invested because they've gone out and spent $on a PlayStation

Phil: And, you know, is it going to be worth it for them to jump over?

Phil: Well, if they're jumping over to an Amazon Fire Stick for a grand investment of $you're probably leaving a lot of money on the table.

Phil: Like I said, this is a very complex social science, business, economics issue that, you know, it would be challenging to work on.

Phil: But boy, I'd really want some help if I was the guy in charge of all this stuff.

Phil: Because I don't think there's any right answer.

Phil: If you want to be everyone's buddy forever, you can give away everything for free.

Phil: But it's not going to be forever because you're going to go out of business.

Phil: And at some point, the shareholders are going to say enough.

Phil: And maybe that's what they're trying to forestall.

Tom: And it would appear that the PC version is only going up $

Phil: Which is nothing.

Phil: No one's going to care.

Tom: And I don't think it is getting destroyed as the console version is.

Tom: Which I think makes sense because in my case anyway, I still have game pass.

Tom: I probably should have cancelled it while I've been playing Baldur's Gate

Tom: But it's worth having to play a random game here and there.

Phil: Yeah, if you've got good internet, it's worth it all day long.

Tom: But it's in no way worth...

Tom: The reason you could not do it in the way they're doing it on consoles is there's I don't believe a single person who would buy a game on game pass over any other way to buy it on PC.

Tom: It is without question.

Tom: The Xbox app is without question the worst possible way, other than the Microsoft Store, to play any game on PC.

Phil: On PC, if you...

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Unless...

Phil: As long as you're keeping Macs, Apple out of the PC definition.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: And Linux.

Phil: And Linux or Linux as it's sometimes called.

Tom: Whereas if you have an Xbox, you can actually buy the game in a way where it should in theory be easy to play it.

Phil: Right.

Tom: So I think Xbox Game Pass on PC is so much cheaper and isn't going down that route because it would not be viable for them to do so because of how incredibly atrocious the app is to use.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: There's plenty of barriers to entry there.

Phil: With that, we'll go on to our official...

Phil: That was breaking news.

Phil: We'll go on to our official story number one in all of our stories this week from here on out.

Phil: Credit to Eurogamer.

Phil: Story number one, Legend of Zelda.

Phil: Now we've got to get into the serious news, unfortunately.

Phil: So sorry about that.

Phil: A Legend of Zelda fan has been jailed for carrying his six-inch master sword in public.

Phil: A Legend of Zelda fan has been sentenced to four months in prison after being found in possession of a small replica, small replica, six inches, I'd say that's average, of a series master sword while in public.

Phil: In June, non-eaten resin Anthony Bray was arrested for carrying a bladed article which had a total blade length of six inches.

Phil: The blade was inside a sheath, okay, and could be released from the sheath with the press of a button.

Phil: When questioned, Bray said the master sword replica was purchased online as a fidget toy.

Phil: Officers explained that despite this being the intended purpose, the blade was, quote, in fact a sharply pointed item which could be used as a weapon and might put others in fear of it being used against them.

Phil: Bray maintained that he would not have used the Legend of Zelda sword as an actual weapon.

Phil: He did acknowledge that it could be perceived as threatening.

Phil: We take zero tolerance to bladed articles in public, and Bray has fallen afoul of this, said Sergeant Spellman.

Phil: He speaks in a rather poetic way, doesn't he?

Phil: Of the Patrol Investigators Unit, or the PIU.

Phil: It is possible to find fidget toys that aren't six inch blades.

Phil: It is possible not to wank down the street, I'm sorry.

Phil: It is possible not to walk down the street, holding them out in front of you.

Phil: Don't hold your six inch blade in front of you as you walk down the street.

Phil: With a bit more self-awareness...

Tom: Probably also don't hold it while you're wanking either.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: I'm sorry, I didn't do an accent either.

Phil: With a bit more self-awareness, Bray could have avoided contact with us completely.

Phil: Bray is now required to pay a victim surcharge of pounds, in addition to serving, as I said before, four months in jail.

Phil: You see the picture of Bray there.

Phil: I'd say he's a man in his s.

Phil: He's got conservative neck tattoos, I wouldn't say they're out of the way.

Phil: And based on the...

Phil: What are those?

Phil: The bulbous...

Phil: What are those called?

Phil: Looks like he likes his drink.

Phil: His nose is a bit bulbous.

Phil: He's got those...

Phil: I think they're called nose bosoms or rose bosoms or something like that.

Phil: Someone will correct this.

Phil: And you see the sword there.

Phil: This is not a fidget toy.

Phil: This is a sword.

Phil: You could kill someone with this thing.

Tom: You could also fidget with it.

Phil: Well, you can fidget with a lot of things that aren't lethal.

Tom: Do you think you could wank with it?

Tom: That's my question.

Phil: With this?

Phil: In public?

Phil: I wouldn't suggest wanking anything in public.

Phil: But...

Tom: I think it puts...

Tom: When you consider the fact that he was wanking down the street, holding it down in front of him, I think wanking, you said, I think that puts the case in a whole new light.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: He doesn't look like a Zelda fan, I think.

Phil: He could be a Zelda fan.

Tom: What does a Zelda fan look like?

Phil: Well...

Phil: D-Vader.

Phil: Someone from Florida.

Tom: I think a man with a six inch Master Sword replica would be likely to be found in Florida.

Phil: I think so too.

Phil: Florida man.

Tom: So he clearly is a Zelda fan.

Phil: On to more serious news.

Phil: Story number two.

Phil: Ubisoft condemns hateful acts.

Phil: Ubisoft boss Yves Guimond has spoken out to condemn the malicious and personal online attacks directed at its developer, developers in the wake of online fallout from Assassin's Creed Shadows Reveal.

Phil: So the latest game in the Assassin's Creed series is going to be Assassin's Creed Shadows.

Phil: Now, this is set in feudal Japan.

Phil: And earlier this month, Ubisoft revealed it has two protagonists in it.

Phil: One, a black samurai named Misaki, a notable figure from the period, and a fictional shinobi named Nao, who happens to be a woman.

Phil: So in this historically set drama, the two main protagonists are black and a woman.

Phil: And it's obviously set in feudal Japan, where this sort of thing happened all the time.

Phil: The internet reacted as normal, as you'd expect, and ex-owner Elon Musk also got involved.

Tom: What did this Elon Musk used to own?

Phil: Ex, formerly known as Twitter, also SpaceX.

Tom: He no longer owns it.

Tom: So he no longer owns any of these things.

Phil: He is the current owner of Ex.

Tom: He's not the ex-owner.

Phil: No, he's the current owner.

Tom: Okay, let's clear that up.

Phil: He's the current ex-owner of Ex, formerly known as Twitter.

Phil: I would have said Tesla owner.

Phil: Anyway, on his platform, he said DEI kills art.

Phil: Now DEI, as you do not know, is an acronym for diversity, equity and inclusion.

Phil: So he obviously assumed that, again, why is Elon Musk giving a shit about the next Assassin's Creed Shadows, Assassin's Creed game?

Tom: Doesn't he have any children in a cave he wants to **** something?

Phil: No, no, that's not him.

Phil: He accused a spelunker who was saving children, I think in the Philippines, of that.

Phil: He was not himself involved.

Tom: I think it was in Thailand.

Phil: Yes, yeah, that's right.

Tom: I'm just saying that as far as I'm aware, Elon Musk is a ****.

Phil: Well, you cannot say that.

Tom: I can!

Tom: He proved it in court that I could.

Phil: You can, but you're going to get it edited out of this podcast because it's libel.

Tom: It's not!

Tom: He successfully proved it was not libel.

Phil: Well, I'm sorry, but you've been bleeped.

Phil: I'm not going to edit it out, but you will be bleeped because it could be construed as libel.

Tom: Now I understand what Jerry Seinfeld is talking about.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: As the executive producer in the deep pockets of this operation, we cannot be libelous.

Phil: There are certain things you can accuse people of, public figures, but there are a few things that you can't accuse them of.

Phil: Now...

Tom: Unless you're Elon Musk.

Phil: Elon Musk apparently cares about Assassin's Creed enough to make this comment, but not caring enough to know that there was actually a black samurai named Yusaki.

Tom: And women in Japan as well.

Phil: And women were also in Japan.

Phil: And so in this case, she's a fictional shinobi.

Phil: Now I don't know if there's any shinobis that were female, right?

Phil: So he may have been referring to that.

Phil: He may have a rich understanding of the history of Yusaki.

Phil: But to continue on with the story, quote the response from Ubisoft, for me, Elon, it's sad.

Phil: He's just feeling, he's just feeding hatred.

Phil: I had a lot of three word replies that came to mind.

Phil: I don't know that you need three word replies to something like that if you're working at Ubisoft from this game.

Phil: I can think of one, two word reply.

Tom: What are the three word replies?

Phil: Well, you've got to remember he's French.

Tom: So we need to know French, what that means.

Phil: Might need to add some other things in there.

Phil: But let's see, three word replies is something you don't like.

Tom: I am upset.

Phil: I am upset.

Phil: Don't say that.

Phil: Why say that?

Tom: How could you?

Phil: There you go.

Phil: We came up with three.

Phil: If you've got another one of a three word reply that comes to your mind, go to gameunder.net.

Phil: You can comment on this show right from the front page without registering or anything like.

Phil: He goes on to say, what Elon says is not the game that we are building.

Phil: And that's the end of the story.

Tom: So the game he's building is against diversity, is against equity and is against inclusion.

Phil: Beautiful.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Tom: Maybe that was the three word reply he was thinking of.

Phil: Oh, diversity, equality, and whatever I stand for.

Phil: Inclusion.

Tom: In French, it will be liberté.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, story number three.

Phil: This is another serious story.

Phil: Nintendo pledges action over inappropriate use of its characters.

Phil: So players are not made to feel uncomfortable.

Phil: Nintendo has responded concern over an inappropriate use of its characters online.

Phil: And said it would take appropriate action against anything that would make players feel uncomfortable.

Phil: Nintendo president Furukawa was recently questioned by a shareholder who said they'd come across cases on social media when Nintendo IP and games were being used inappropriately.

Phil: So I don't know.

Phil: Well, I could guess how you could use some Nintendo games inappropriately, but the Switch cartridge, for example, is way too small to be used inappropriately, so far as I can tell.

Phil: I guess they may be licking it, like LSD or something like that, but potentially it was the inappropriate use of a six-inch master sword on a street that they had in mind.

Phil: That's probably the case.

Phil: This could have all been headed off.

Phil: The guy's gone to jail already.

Phil: This inappropriate use of Nintendo's characters poses a risk of damaging the company's brand.

Phil: So what are you going to do about it?

Phil: Asked the shareholder.

Phil: In response, Furukawa said Nintendo's management policy was to bring smiles through entertainment, but presumably not the kind of smiles generated by inappropriate use.

Phil: Eh?

Phil: Eh?

Phil: That's wrong, Eurogame.

Phil: There's very serious coverage of this.

Phil: Our goal is to create an environment where everyone can enjoy playing games.

Phil: We will continue to make every effort to ensure that our consumers are not made to feel uncomfortable, not only in our games, but also anywhere they come into contact with our IP, which is completely...

Phil: They cannot do it.

Phil: It's called fair use.

Phil: It's called satire.

Phil: It's called parody.

Phil: If you're representing that a Bowsette is a...

Phil: something that Nintendo has produced and an efficiently licensed thing from Nintendo, you're going down, you're getting sued.

Phil: If you're selling something that has Mario's likeness on it with him and depicted giving the double finger saying inappropriate three word statements like, I am sad.

Phil: I am sad.

Phil: Or, why am I doing?

Phil: Why am I doing is probably not inappropriate actually.

Phil: It's probably something that Charles Martinet said many times.

Phil: What am I doing?

Phil: But the funny thing is, so the internet goes absolutely off, right?

Phil: Like they're taking Bowser away from us.

Phil: How dare they fair use parody satire?

Phil: We can sexually exploit all of the Nintendo intellectual art.

Phil: Yeah, you can, I guess, but why are you raging against the machine on this one when you know that there's no way Nintendo can out internet the internet?

Phil: Now, here comes the turn.

Phil: Here's an update from someone who actually speaks Japanese.

Phil: This came after all the uproar, right?

Phil: Nintendo's transcript of the question is reportedly accurately below her, the company's, own translation.

Phil: So Nintendo had the correct translation in their minutes, but then deleted it.

Phil: They censored the question itself, right?

Phil: Which has caused all of this misunderstanding because people are relying on the transcripts from the shareholders meeting.

Phil: So the actual question was that this guy stood up and said, hey, man, you know, I've seen this stuff on social media.

Phil: This is Mario Cosplayer in Japan, who's been sending lewd images to miners dressed as Mario.

Phil: You know, with his, you know, master sword exposed.

Phil: And that's what he was responding to.

Phil: So, like, I think it's legitimate.

Phil: The response is legitimate when you know that the question was about someone who was exposing himself to miners dressed as Mario.

Phil: But, you know, the internet didn't stop to pause to go back and reflect on, oh, well, OK, yeah, well, no one wants that.

Phil: We will just all keep living in the reality that they're talking about Bowser.

Tom: Though I would add, the description is a Mario cosplayer in Japan accused of sending nude images to miners.

Tom: So I don't know if this was during his cosplaying or not.

Phil: OK, yeah, fair enough.

Phil: OK, so under your premise, this guy is just a famous Mario cosplayer.

Phil: But then when he wasn't dressed as Mario, he was exposing himself to miners.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: OK, the problem with your premise is the first two words of that statement.

Phil: Famous cosplayer.

Tom: But if he's not doing it as part of his act as the character, the action does not include the character.

Phil: I'm going to assume that he's sending pictures of himself as Mario, as a cosplayer, to engage with children.

Phil: And then once the children engage with him, he's like, I can show you a little bit more of Mario if you want, or even if you don't want.

Phil: Did you know that Mario has a six inch master sword?

Phil: That sort of thing.

Tom: We don't know that, though.

Tom: That's all I'm saying.

Tom: We're acting on pure hearsay.

Phil: What, that Mario doesn't have a six inch master sword?

Tom: We weren't sending the images in question.

Phil: I've seen a film with Ron Jeremy in it, and I agree, it's probably not a six inch master sword.

Phil: Now, that ends our official news story, but I understand you've been taking, you've gone onto the streets, and you've been doing an investigative deep dive.

Tom: Yes, I do.

Phil: Very good.

Tom: I've also, as well as Game Pass, been subscribed to Humble Choice for a very long time now, because I originally paused the subscription several times.

Phil: Now, I'm sorry to interrupt, but what is Humble Choice?

Tom: Humble Choice is the humble bundle subscription service in which they give you, I think it is games per month now.

Tom: Something like that for, I think, $Australian.

Phil: That's really good buy.

Tom: I think if you go buy, if you were not originally subscribed to it, it's a lot more than that.

Tom: It's something like $Australian or more potentially.

Tom: But if you are an original subscriber or subscribed in the first few months, you have it at the original price still.

Phil: And Humble Bundle was brought out by EB Games slash GameStop.

Phil: I know that for a long time, but apparently Zip Davis, the video game publisher who now owns IGN, owns them.

Phil: So Humble Bundle started out as a very small, almost non-profit, I'm going to say, that was a way of bundling together indie games so that these games could get more publicity and more of a following.

Phil: And that they'd offer them at a certain price, and you'd pay a certain price.

Phil: You'd say, oh, I want to pay $

Phil: And they're like, okay, well, you'll get this game, this game and this game.

Phil: But if you wanted to pay $you'd get an additional game.

Phil: If you want to pay $or $you'd get a whole bunch of games.

Phil: So they basically, in addition to that, or in place of that, converted that to a subscription model, which sounds pretty good.

Phil: I mean, Amazon Games that you get for free with Prime, quote for free, gives you about six to eight games a month.

Phil: So games a month.

Tom: A correction, it is eight games.

Phil: And are the games worth playing?

Tom: But they are, depends on the month, I would say.

Tom: But they are yours to keep in theory, rather than it being like Game Pass or I believe Apple Games where when you stop subscribing, you can no longer play said games.

Phil: Right, which again, to pump the Prime of Amazon Prime, as I found out, they give you the files.

Phil: You don't have to hook them up or associate them with an account.

Phil: You can play them, which is admirable.

Tom: Excellent.

Tom: So they're a similar model.

Phil: So where's the investigative deep dive here?

Phil: Sounds like a good deal.

Tom: Well, that's what we're getting to.

Tom: It does sound like a good deal.

Tom: Now, it's been more than a year since I have actually attempted to install any of these games.

Phil: Whoa.

Tom: But this has happened on occasion in the past, where I've gone a few months in between actually adding the games to my Steam account, and there haven't been any issues before.

Tom: But as I was browsing through this ridiculous number of random games that I've accrued over more than a year, one game in particular caught my eye, which was Fashion Police Squad, which is a first-person shooter in which you are, I think, writing the fashion wrongs of people on the street.

Tom: It's essentially a humorous take on classic first-person shooters.

Phil: Sounds good.

Tom: Hence the name.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: I think I also got this through Amazon Prime.

Phil: And just an interesting side note, the fashion police are an actual, you know this of course, in Iran, the fashion police are an actual division of the police that go around, you know, policing women who are dressed inappropriately.

Phil: But I love the concept.

Tom: Which I think we can see from this game is something we're crying out for in the West as well.

Phil: Judging from what I've seen in the last few days while I've been in Brisbane, yes.

Phil: I don't think people should be wearing pajamas in public.

Phil: I don't think people should be dressing cow pajamas in public or sheep pajamas in public.

Tom: What if they're not animal themed pajamas?

Tom: Is this part of your veganism, by the way?

Phil: I think you can get away with a plaid or plaid pant as a pajama.

Phil: I mean, that's kind of living the punk lifestyle.

Phil: It's been around since the s.

Phil: But you can't just wear pajamas in public, especially if you're going to go barefoot.

Phil: If you're going down to get the newspaper that doesn't exist anymore, that's one thing.

Phil: But if you're walking city blocks in the middle of the day, animal themed or not, you cannot wear pajamas.

Phil: They need to be fashion policed.

Phil: And so in this game, how do you judge whether someone's...

Phil: You played it, right?

Tom: Well, this is what we're getting to.

Phil: Okay.

Tom: So I go to unlock my Steam code, and I'm informed.

Tom: The Steam codes have run out.

Tom: We will inform you as soon as we have more available.

Phil: Oh, really?

Tom: Yes.

Tom: So I Googled this problem, and apparently this has occurred to other people.

Tom: And you might say, as many people did on the Internet, well, it's been...

Tom: Bear in mind, this was from the...

Tom: Let me see which bundle.

Tom: The April bundle.

Tom: So April bundle

Tom: So only a few months ago.

Tom: And I was not even in the country in April

Tom: So I've only had about six or so weeks, less than two months, to activate this Steam code.

Tom: You might say, well, it's been a long time, you should have activated it, but nowhere does it say.

Tom: I mean, when you are subscribed to the thing, it says you're being given, you are purchasing eight games, essentially.

Tom: I would say that's pretty unacceptable to not reserve a Steam code for someone who has purchased a game on your platform.

Phil: Yeah, you know what that tells me?

Phil: They know the number of zombie accounts they have.

Phil: They know the number of...

Phil: Let's just keep it small numbers.

Phil: It's hopefully going to be bigger for them.

Phil: Let's say they have subscribers.

Phil: That means they know for a fact that only of them are actively claiming games, or or

Phil: So they only buy licenses or Steam keys until they get enough complaints to go out and go, okay, fine.

Phil: Let's just say they get complaints, so they go out and buy another Steam keys.

Tom: So I would call this a pyramid scheme.

Phil: Would you not?

Phil: Yeah, a Ponzi scheme, and no, it's not a Ponzi scheme.

Phil: Well, a Ponzi scheme is a pyramid scheme.

Phil: I wouldn't...

Phil: Yeah, I'm just trying to see if that would fit that definition.

Phil: It's definitely a scam.

Tom: It's % a scam.

Phil: It's % a scam.

Tom: But there were a lot of people arguing because full of Reddit threads and other posts of this on the Internet, there were so many people replying, saying...

Tom: And some of these people literally did try to activate their game instantly.

Tom: And again, this is only...

Tom: This is within two months of this bundle being released.

Tom: There were so many people saying, well, you should have just activated it earlier.

Tom: If I go in to EB and I buy a game and I take that game home, if I don't open the box for six months, if the game is not in there, EB has scanned me.

Phil: Or more likely, you go in to EB, you buy a game, it's got a download code.

Phil: No, it's got a download code.

Phil: And you do what I did with that crap.

Tom: Let's say there's no download code in it either.

Phil: No, yeah, but the point would be, mate, I bought Mad Max from Bethesda, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And didn't say anything about nothing on there.

Phil: I get at home, I put it in the things, like, no, no, you got to download it.

Phil: No, no, that's fine.

Phil: I don't have internet.

Phil: I just want to play the game, thanks.

Phil: No, you got to download it.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Okay, well, let's say I do want to download it.

Phil: Yeah, but you need a Bethesda account.

Phil: But I don't want a Bethesda account.

Phil: I don't really care.

Phil: You need to get a Bethesda account, then you need to download the game, right?

Phil: So just imagine if you bought a game with the code, and then six months later, you put in the code and like, nah, mate, you know, we only had codes.

Phil: That's a closer corollary to what you're describing.

Tom: It is and it isn't, because at the end of the tunnel for you, and in theory, this is the case here, but it's only in theory at this stage, at the end of the tunnel for you, if you could somehow jump through the hoops required, the game you purchased would still exist.

Phil: The game might have rented.

Tom: As an accessible thing.

Phil: Right.

Tom: Yes.

Tom: Whereas in this case, it's purely just a scam.

Tom: It's not, it's, what you're describing is the type of scam where that's more like a timeshare scam, is it not?

Tom: Where you've got to jump through an endless stream of million hoops to get somewhere.

Tom: But for the few people who do that, a shitty experience will await them at some point in the future.

Phil: It is a true scam.

Phil: You have identified it correctly.

Tom: But clearly, what we've learned from this is I should have got Amazon Prime.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: We do have Amazon Prime.

Tom: Can you, is the backlog of games on Amazon Prime?

Phil: You've got to claim the game, so you've got days to claim it.

Phil: Once you've claimed it, you can download it whenever you want.

Tom: Was that around days ago, or is it already gone?

Phil: What's that?

Phil: Oh, this particular game.

Phil: I have no idea.

Phil: It was a while ago.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And I typically have, I do not claim everything.

Phil: I just claim the games that I have a legitimate interest in, because I know that it's going to cost Amazon.

Phil: And, you know, I don't need to pay for games I don't want or have no interest in.

Phil: And then sometimes things like this catch my attention because of the name.

Phil: Fashion Police was one of them.

Phil: You know, and most times they're classic games.

Phil: And I know what they are already.

Phil: And other times they're games I really want, like moving out.

Phil: So again, Amazon Prime games, if you're paying for Amazon Prime, they're leaving money on the table for DRM free games.

Phil: It's just a, it's a really good service.

Phil: It hasn't got all the bells and whistles of Steam, far from it, but you know, it's not painful the way Epic is.

Phil: So we'll move on to email.

Phil: We've got one email this week before we get into what we've been playing.

Phil: We have spoiler and spoiler free interpretations of Indika.

Phil: And I believe you've also played Aperture Deskjobs.

Phil: Aperture Deskjobs, which I talked about in the last episode, which we'll catch up with you on as well.

Phil: OK, so you're ready for your question.

Phil: This is Phil's questions for Tom from other people's podcasts.

Tom: I'm ready.

Phil: Alan from Undisclosed Location Rights, would you prefer if life had unlimited saves or it's saved on a checkpoint basis?

Tom: Why would anyone choose checkpoint basis?

Phil: I'll repeat that again.

Phil: Would you prefer if life had unlimited saves or saves on a checkpoint basis?

Phil: So you're saying unlimited saves for you.

Tom: Obviously.

Phil: And what does that mean?

Tom: Well, that's the question.

Tom: Can you load the saves?

Phil: Yep, unlimited loadable saves.

Tom: So then obviously you would go with that.

Phil: Now you still live for the same duration of time.

Phil: You just get to undo decisions.

Tom: So you're not redoing things?

Phil: Well, he doesn't.

Phil: There's no rules to this.

Phil: He hasn't specified the rules.

Tom: I think you need to specify these things.

Phil: I think, well, there's no rules.

Phil: There's no rules for Alan.

Phil: But I'm just saying, I think perhaps on a philosophical level, this is not about being able to live forever.

Phil: Because if you have unlimited saves, you'd save at birth.

Phil: You'd live your life for years, and then you'd go back and go, I want to do that again, right?

Tom: That's what I'm saying.

Tom: Logically speaking, according to the question, as it is worded, there's really only one useful answer.

Phil: And that's only because you want immortality, right?

Tom: No, because you can just keep living.

Tom: You don't even need to reload at any point and die if you want.

Phil: OK, so now if you did have unlimited saves, how often would you do an unlimited save?

Phil: Would you only do it when you're about to make a major decision?

Phil: Or would you just save every minutes or every five minutes?

Tom: Every seconds or so, I would estimate.

Phil: Oh, come on, man.

Phil: You'd be spending all your life would be nothing but pressing the save button.

Phil: You've got to press a physical save button.

Phil: There's a physical save button near the fridge that you've got to go over, walk and press to save.

Tom: You've got to go all the way over to the fridge.

Phil: To the fridge.

Phil: And then if you want to load your save, you've got to go out onto the patio.

Tom: Once per day, then.

Tom: I'll save at the beginning and the end of the day, depending on how the day went.

Phil: So you've gone from seconds to a day because you don't want to walk from the fridge to the bloody patio.

Phil: You must have a huge house.

Tom: It is a big house.

Phil: Dang.

Phil: Now, I'm going to look at this a different way, which is why there's two of it.

Phil: If you were to save on a checkpoint basis, I think that you're accepting life as it is, and you're accepting that sometimes you make mistakes.

Phil: But had you had a redo, you wouldn't have made that decision.

Phil: But then if you hadn't made that decision, you wouldn't have had the outcome that you're currently having.

Phil: So would you learn or would you benefit from poor decisions if life was being saved on a checkpoint basis?

Tom: How far apart are these checkpoints?

Phil: Well, for example, if I was at...

Phil: Well, that's different.

Phil: I mean, a checkpoint basis is basically saying, are we going to give you an opportunity to restart every six months?

Phil: So a bad checkpoint system, just like Indika has.

Phil: But with chapters, chapters, Indika saves on a checkpoint basis on chapters, so we use that.

Phil: So a chapter in life might be, let's say, a year.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: So it will be based purely on time, not events that occur.

Phil: So yeah, but...

Tom: Because it could also be based on events occurring.

Phil: Here's the problem.

Phil: I think you'd find yourself being a rat chasing its tail if you had unlimited saves.

Phil: For example, my first girlfriend, you know, oh my god, I've loved my life.

Phil: You know, I want to be with her the whole life, right?

Phil: If I had unlimited saves, I'd still be with her.

Phil: And my life would be hell.

Phil: But because life was saving on a checkpoint basis, it's kind of like, you know, if you had the ability to go back and relive the last months to undo a decision that you made so that you would still be with that person, you know, at this point, I go, you know what, I'll just take the months.

Phil: Thank you very much, because in retrospect, that wasn't a good choice.

Phil: That wasn't a good life choice.

Phil: And I would be better off not making that decision to relive that aspect of my life.

Phil: And I hope I communicated that well, because that's as best as I can communicate it.

Tom: I understood what you were saying.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: But I'm still going to go with unlimited saves, precisely for the reason you described.

Tom: I think it reveals your own personal insanity to you in a way that checkpoints do not.

Phil: Excellent point.

Phil: So if you are a rat chasing your tail with the unlimited saves, what you're saying perhaps is that after six months of reliving this stuff every day, you would probably go, you know what, in retrospect, now that I've been looking at this stuff and reliving it every time I make a mistake and going back and doing it again and again, I'm not going to want to be with this person.

Phil: I'm going to make a decision to go in a different direction.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So Alan, Tom's answer is you would prefer unlimited saves.

Tom: I would.

Phil: And I'm going to say I agree with you after that.

Phil: I think I would have started out with a checkpoint basis and living life sort of play out a bit, but we all do have a finite amount of time on this planet.

Tom: Not if you have unlimited saves, though.

Phil: Not if you have unlimited saves.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: That's a great question, Alan.

Phil: So with that, we'll go on to what we've been playing.

Phil: Did you want to touch on a game that I talked about last week that is a pre-packing game?

Phil: It's developed by Valve.

Phil: Any person on Steam can play it anytime they want.

Phil: They don't need a Steam deck for it.

Phil: It's called Aperture Destrobe, set in the world of Portal.

Phil: I thought it was a well-written, very well-audio-directed, tight gameplay experience.

Phil: And it was made based on the credits I saw, by or people.

Phil: And certainly, you know, it's free, so that's another thing going for it.

Phil: And it's short, that's another thing going for it.

Phil: But you want to give your, perhaps, light-spoiler impressions of it?

Tom: I think you said it was Valve's best game ever.

Phil: No, I did not.

Tom: I think you did.

Phil: I said it was the best indication of what Valve is capable of at this point.

Tom: What does that mean, exactly?

Phil: That, you know, Valve is a velvet box that we don't get to look into very often.

Phil: So that I think that any opportunity that we can...

Phil: You're getting the Diadestiny ready, aren't you?

Tom: I'm trying to find it.

Tom: I cannot currently find it.

Phil: Well, it's okay.

Phil: I've got the Diadestiny sound effect.

Phil: So I hate to burst your bubble here.

Phil: But basically when you roll the Diadestiny, we cannot hear it.

Phil: So I have to put in a sound effect.

Phil: So despite what I said...

Tom: It's not about the sound.

Tom: It's about the...

Phil: Destiny.

Tom: I understand that.

Tom: Authenticity of using real dice.

Phil: No one can question your authenticity on that.

Phil: Nothing can replicate the authenticity.

Phil: But please do know that every time you do it, I'm using a sound effect.

Phil: It takes about a minute and a half of my life to find it, cut it in and all that.

Phil: But don't feel guilty about that.

Phil: So, no, I didn't say it's their best work, but I thought that it was a good sign that they're still capable of producing something of a good quality.

Tom: So do you think there was some self-expression in this game, given your statement, bearing in mind that the setting is you are working in a factory that is making toilets, and a robot appears and starts making additions, creative additions, to this toilet, and this will contain minor spoilers, which get progressively more and more out of hand until they produce a toilet that they're satisfied with.

Tom: It's their great invention, and they take it to the head of the company to show the head of the company.

Phil: Oh, wow.

Tom: And essentially, it was all for naught.

Phil: This, my friend, is delicious.

Phil: Yes, it's self-commentary.

Phil: It never would have occurred to me, and it's fantastic.

Phil: Oh, my God, this is brilliant, because remember what the robot keeps telling him.

Phil: There's this ridiculous premise that wherever you go, you have to take your desk.

Phil: And of course, what do we know about Valve?

Phil: All their desks have wheels on them.

Phil: So that if you want to change your job, if you want to do something different, you have to take your desk with you.

Phil: And so the robot replies, okay, we're going to go and do this other thing now, but remember, take your desk with you.

Phil: This is delicious.

Phil: And they have the head at the end, which is this big monolithic Easter Island-type figure, like, at the shrugged-type thing.

Phil: Oh, my God.

Phil: Yeah, you've hit it on the nail.

Phil: This is fantastic.

Phil: Fantastic insight.

Tom: And I think maybe it's not just Valve fans that are crying out for a new Valve game.

Phil: Well, who else would be?

Tom: I think perhaps some developers there.

Phil: Oh, gotcha.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: That's fantastic.

Phil: And so maybe, honestly, I agree with myself or rather the misrepresentation of myself.

Phil: This is the best Valve game ever.

Phil: It's a self-contemplation.

Phil: It's like the hostage who scratches the Morse code into his shirt when he's telling everyone how good the AYATOL is, but his shirt says, please help me get me out of here.

Phil: It's a cry for help.

Phil: This is beautiful.

Phil: We should have led the show with this.

Tom: I think we should have too.

Phil: Well, I apologize, but I'm going to publicize this as the lead thing.

Phil: This is Valve's best game.

Phil: That's what this show is going to be called.

Phil: Yeah, no, that's a fantastic insight, Tom.

Phil: Now, what did you think of the game itself besides the obvious commentary?

Tom: I think that was by far the most interesting part of the game and most enjoyable.

Tom: And I think, I'm not sure I would necessarily say it's the best Valve game because Portal is an exceptionally good puzzle game.

Tom: But I think it has what is lacking in other Valve games, which is a personal touch.

Tom: Portal is hilarious, but the humor is polished to the point of meaninglessness.

Tom: I don't think you could at all return to Portal and enjoy anything about the experience other than the excellent puzzles.

Tom: And they're the sort of puzzles you actually can replay because the physics involved in them makes redoing them quite enjoyable.

Tom: But the whole presentation, I think, loses a lot.

Tom: And in the case of Half-Life, I think, without the humor, there's absolutely nothing in the narrative of any worth whatsoever, because if there was thematic content in Half-Life, I think the very dry setting could work, but any sort of themes in those games is completely sucked out of them.

Tom: The setting is interesting in them insofar as experience and installation, which I think is what I enjoy most about Half-Life Alex, because you are exploring in great detail the setting, which is interesting in theory, this sort of post-Soviet, brutalist architecture atmosphere that they could have explored so much in but chose not to.

Tom: I think it's amazing that a game like Aperture Desk Job was made by Valve, because it's so far away from anything they've done in the past, and essentially goes against the way they have made all their games previously.

Phil: Okay, now to depress you, what if there are two people like me there at Valve, two people like us at Valve, right?

Phil: And we're like, what if we were just so calculated and cynical?

Phil: Like, hey, people know about the whole desk shifting thing, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And people know we don't make a lot of games.

Phil: People know that Gabe is kind of an empty monolith that people bow down to, but there's really nothing there, there.

Phil: So why don't we make a game that plays up on that?

Phil: And rather than being a heartfelt right to help, this is more of a cynical, oh, the kids will get this.

Tom: I think that could easily be the case, but through sheer accident, they still created something that has some meaning in it, I would say.

Phil: If it were revolutionary within the organization, and they took this to Gabe Newell, let's say it was revolutionary and they took it to Gabe Newell, and Gabe Newell is not a dummy, obviously.

Phil: I don't think he can be intellectually poor.

Phil: Perhaps he's lacking in insight or having some blind spots and other things because of his power and wealth.

Phil: Is there a way that this game could be presented to Gabe Newell and Gabe Goh?

Phil: So am I the empty modelist?

Tom: I would hope he would potentially have that interpretation.

Phil: The other interpretation is would Gabe have even seen this?

Tom: I would presume that he wouldn't even have seen it.

Phil: There's a lot of presumptions there.

Phil: But anyway, I still love, I love...

Tom: Maybe it was his idea.

Phil: I love you.

Phil: Maybe it was his idea.

Phil: Hey, you two smart Aussie kids in the corner, go make a cynical thing that some smart fans out there will appreciate, okay?

Phil: Don't make it too smart, you know, because they're not too smart.

Phil: They might not pick up on it.

Phil: You know, they might be more Phil Fogg, less Tom Towers, you know what I'm saying?

Phil: So, I don't know why Gabe talks like that, but...

Phil: Thanks for giving us the show title.

Phil: Okay, so on to Indika, right?

Phil: So, Indika is a game that has come out in.

Phil:

Phil: And like we said, it's been published by -bit studios, which made your favorite game, a game that I thought quite highly of.

Phil: This were mine.

Phil: They published it, but the developer is OddMeter.

Phil: And this is apparently their first game, or their first published game.

Phil: Tell me if I'm wrong.

Phil: I'm going to describe it as a third-person puzzle platformer with D gaming elements.

Tom: I would say that's accurate.

Tom: I think the emphasis is definitely on puzzle solving, though.

Tom: I would call it more a walking simulator slash puzzle game with D platforming elements.

Phil: The internet calls it the genre adventure, which is ridiculous.

Phil: Eko, by your definition, would be a walking simulator with some puzzle elements.

Tom: There's a lot of platforming in Eko.

Phil: Yeah, there's a lot of platforming in this.

Phil: I think it's a puzzle platformer, a D puzzle platformer in the same vein as Eko.

Phil: I mean, because you've got a companion.

Tom: Could be, yeah.

Tom: Yeah, towards the end, actually, yeah, there is quite a bit of platforming.

Phil: Yeah, and you've got a companion.

Phil: I'd say there's been platforming in the middle as well.

Phil: So certainly an unconventional thing is built with the Unreal Engine and available for PlayStation Xbox, PC, obviously.

Phil: The thing that grabbed me about this game was obviously they have a very brutal and confronting and interesting graphical style to how they present the game with these nuns with halos around their heads, not halos in the traditional way, but in the way that it was represented in a renaissance with basically a yellow circle or a golden circle behind their heads, all laughing and mocking.

Phil: A woman of modest appearance, but still beautiful by comparison to these hakelin women that are crowded around her.

Phil: So immediately, you're drawn with, well, what is this?

Phil: And I don't know the provenance of OddMeter, the developer, but -bit is out of Poland, and this game is set in Russia, or one of the Russian territories, if I'm not wrong.

Tom: I think so, and I think the developer is Russian.

Phil: Well, the guy's name is Dmitry Svetlov.

Phil: So yeah, that's kind of a hint.

Phil: So I'm just trying to give the background of this game and everything, but certainly it's got unconventional protagonists.

Phil: When would you say this is set?

Phil: s to s, based on the weapons?

Tom: That would be probably my guess too.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Sometime around the First World War.

Phil: And in a spoiler-free way, you play as a female character, a nun, who is refreshingly not beautiful from a video game perspective.

Phil: It's refreshing not to play someone who looks like a supermodel.

Phil: And it starts out as sort of a work simulator and just touching the high points.

Phil: But at a certain point, you're tasked to leave this snow-driven monastery to go and do something.

Phil: Something happens, and you're now, for the rest of the game, going to be joined with a male character who is of a completely different life experience in every form, spiritually, vocationally, class, the whole thing.

Phil: And along the way, you learn why you've been given the task that you've been given, and then basically from there, you sort of deviate from the path that you've been given to an unknown end that you're going to explore as the game player.

Phil: Have I done a sufficient job there describing the spoiler-free elements of the game?

Tom: I think you did a good job.

Phil: Thank you.

Phil: So keeping it spoiler-free, this is a completely refreshing game that if you haven't considered purchasing and playing, I would tell you to go out and do it.

Phil: Even if you don't like it, I would say that this is a must-experience game just because it is so unconventional, unconventional in so many different ways.

Phil: And as we've spoken about many times before, this podcast is about stretching people's understanding of what a video game is and being able to enjoy things that you may not have known about.

Phil: Yeah, sure, it's a third-person action, a third-person puzzle platformer to an extent.

Phil: Yes, to a certain degree, it's a work simulator.

Phil: Yes, to a certain degree, it's a walking simulator.

Phil: But I think it has an authenticity behind it that elevates it to a new level.

Phil: And the refreshing part of that is perhaps the, again, provenance of the developer being Russian, our, quote, enemy at this time of history, bringing a story that...

Tom: Why do you hate Russians?

Tom: I don't.

Phil: I don't hate anyone.

Tom: Is it our enemy?

Phil: Well, I meant, you know, quote, I said, quote, the worst enemy right now.

Tom: I thought you meant Game Unders.

Phil: No, no, no.

Phil: We have no enemies other than Humble Bundle, which is a complete scam, and Peter Brock.

Phil: Rest in peace.

Phil: So, yeah, so, you know, I thoroughly recommend it.

Phil: I'd just like to hear your spoiler-free impressions before we go into some of the finer details of the game.

Tom: Well, I think we should talk a little bit about the gameplay in more detail.

Tom: Like I said, it...

Tom: I think the platforming is a little bit awkward.

Tom: It's not...

Tom: When it combines puzzles as well, I think it's more interesting.

Tom: One thing that comes in mind, which at least required a little bit of thinking was slightly satisfying to solve, was where you had to use your weight to move, I think, a beam, so that you could run up the beam and jump off it at the end with the right timing.

Tom: So there are moments where it's interesting, but a lot of the time, it's, I think, there, just to say that they have some gameplay there at times.

Tom: Towards the end of the game, there are more complicated things with moving elements, like your inner room, where there's a circular section of platforms moving around, and you have to go from platform to platform with the right timing, avoiding obstacles that spin around as well.

Tom: And it's perfectly serviceable in those moments, but it's not particularly enjoyable, and I was certainly more interested in finding out what was going to happen rather than trying to get through these sections of gameplay for the enjoyment of playing through them.

Tom: So I think in terms of gameplay, a lot of it isn't that interesting, but at the same time, there are moments of gameplay that I think work really well.

Tom: One of them you might not consider gameplay, but I will call it gameplay, is in most of the levels, I think all of them, there are seats you can find, and you can sit down in this seat and contemplate things, which just gives you a different perspective of the area you're in.

Tom: And then when you sit up, it goes back to your normal third-person view and you go on with things.

Tom: I thought that was a really interesting way of breaking things up.

Phil: Do you think that's the tip of the hat to ICO, which had these couches on which you saved?

Phil: Definitely, yeah.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: And another moment that really stood out was a puzzle where you're moving these gigantic platforms between...

Tom: They're like...

Tom: I think they're parts of a building being constructed and you're moving these around.

Phil: I think we can say without spoiling anything that there is a time mechanic that's used in the game.

Phil: So much like in Braid, the D platformer, if you can imagine, in a D world, you have the ability to move things forward and move things back, but the world stops, but you can move.

Phil: So you can use that as a platforming element.

Phil: And I should also say that they do this on the D levels as well.

Phil: So the D aspects of the game are interspersed with D, and that's not a spoiler, because the game actually starts with a D play element in which you're falling through the sky trying to catch various things.

Phil: So yeah, there is a time element involved in the game.

Phil: I found that to be a really fun puzzle.

Phil: Did you enjoy it?

Tom: Yes, I did.

Phil: Yeah, I thought that was done well.

Tom: And the other thing that I think was done really well in the gameplay was as you're going along, if you find religious icons or perform certain actions, you get these points to level up.

Tom: And the way that fits into the ending, I thought, was both hilarious and thematically brilliant.

Phil: Yes, and I, of course, have not yet reached the ending because I'm traveling and my current laptop cannot play the epic engine.

Tom: I think we should wait to go into spoilers until you've finished it.

Phil: Well, maybe we can touch on that in the next episode.

Phil: We can still promote.

Phil: Unless you're serious.

Tom: I'm serious.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, with that, I'm not going to close that show.

Phil: From a spoiler-free perspective, I think that we can say that the work simulator stuff started pretty heavily but then faded off pretty quick.

Phil: I don't know where we talked about this, but we talked about it with the Aperture Desk job.

Phil: We've already talked about this, so that's not a spoiler.

Phil: But with the Aperture Desk job, the first thing they have you do is to do something, and then you do it, and then you do it again.

Phil: Then you do it a third time, and you get, oh, I get it.

Phil: They're trying to simulate work.

Phil: Okay, yep, work simulator.

Phil: Then you do it another three times, and you're like, yep, still get it, work simulator.

Phil: But by the tenth time, you're like, this isn't fun anymore.

Phil: This is bloody work.

Phil: So in the Aperture Desk job, that service no path.

Phil: But in this one, it's a story about religious duty, a lot of the time, or at least at the start of the game, it's about duty.

Phil: And you do these things that are completely meaningless because you have faith in the end goal.

Phil: You have faith that the people who are telling you to do this are doing it for your spiritual development.

Phil: And I think the whole spiritual path of this game was done extremely well throughout.

Phil: This goes in the spoiler territory, but I can't go into it.

Phil: But we'll touch on that once I finish the game, which will be for the next episode.

Tom: And without adding spoilers to it, again, I think the way it weaves the themes and narrative into the gameplay is, I think, in terms of the gameplay, the highlight.

Tom: And not many games succeed as well as Indika does at doing that.

Phil: It's masterful.

Phil: It's absolutely masterful in terms of, first of all, having a theme, other than, here, fellow, here's a controller.

Phil: Push this button, do this.

Phil: Push this button, do that.

Phil: We'll give you a cut scene.

Phil: You can have a visceral thrill, that you cut up a bloke or shoot a bloke every few seconds.

Phil: And then at the end of the game, when you're done with cutting up and shooting up blokes, the credits will roll.

Phil: And then maybe we'll give you some sort of soft cut scene at the end to make you feel like you've actually experienced something that's meaningful.

Phil: I think if you were to look at a thematic, a game that delivered on a thematic level, it would be Spec Ops The Line, which of course was borrowing from the Heart of Darkness.

Phil: And also the movie as well, but Apocalypse Now.

Phil: But yeah, this game is right up there, probably in the top of games that have been able to, first of all, have a creative, independent thematic perspective, but then also be able to weave that into the game plays and the dialogue and the writing and the character development on such a high level.

Phil: It's not perfect.

Phil: You know, there's flaws in this game.

Phil: You know, you could fall, you know, there's technical flaws, but let's not, you know, I guess we could cripple about some of them.

Phil: One we did earlier, which is, you know, this only saves when you finish a chapter.

Phil: A cynic would say, well, it's a short game, so they want to lengthen your play experience.

Phil: So, you know, someone more thoughtful perhaps might propose that they're only saving at the end of a chapter because they need you to live this game.

Phil: They need you to live this game chapter by chapter.

Phil: They don't want you stopping in the middle and then just picking it up, oh yeah, halfway through and then forgetting what the start of it was and forgetting what the chapter before it was.

Phil: Imagine if there was a streaming network that presented a show where they said, no, for this particular series, we're not letting you pause.

Phil: And if you do stop watching, you're gonna have to watch the first minutes again because we really believe that this show has to be taken in chapters.

Phil: I'm not sure I support that because, you know, you read books all the time.

Phil: If you fall asleep, you pick up the chapter where you've picked up from.

Phil: Does that diminish it?

Phil: Yeah, it does.

Phil: As a reader, I try to get to the next chapter before I stop reading because otherwise you're picking it up and then you sort of, oh yeah, that's right, that's what's happening, you know, and you sort of lose something in the middle.

Phil: So I don't know if, which do you think this is cynical because it's a short game or do you think it's more like, no, you're going to eat your meal in courses?

Tom: Narratively, most of the checkpoints make sense, so that's probably the reason.

Phil: Definitely, yeah.

Phil: Well, definitely the checkpoints make sense.

Tom: I never ran into any problems with that.

Phil: I wish they were more upfront about it because I replayed the first section of it because it wasn't completely apparent to me that that was the thing.

Phil: I was more like, okay, well, clearly I've passed several autosaves at this point.

Phil: Dinner's ready.

Phil: So, you know, I didn't have a choice.

Phil: My family's screaming, I got to go.

Phil: And the next night I sat down to play again.

Phil: I'm like, what?

Phil: Okay, so I've got to play that minutes again.

Phil: You know?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: The D game elements, without spoilers, I found them...

Phil: I found one of them to be creative.

Phil: I found the others to be sort of like, yeah, okay, I get it.

Phil: The menu in the game is D, pixelated, you know, art.

Phil: Game starts with you with no explanation, having to play a D vertical shooter sort of thing in reverse.

Phil: I didn't think that...

Phil: But for the one platforming level, where you're on a roof and some cats are involved, I didn't think that the D elements...

Phil: I don't know why they're there, other than that the whole theme of the game was contrast and juxtaposition.

Phil: But I didn't think the D elements, other than that one platforming level, was very good.

Tom: I found some of them frustrating, but I didn't really find them to get in the way of anything.

Phil: Yeah, I found them all frustrating.

Phil: I thought the platforming one was challenging, but enjoyable.

Phil: But there's one that involves directing a vehicle that I found horrible.

Tom: I found that one very easy.

Tom: The one I had issues with, I don't know if you're up to it, was when you're jumping from frog to frog.

Phil: No, but thanks for spying on me.

Tom: Look forward to that.

Phil: Thanks.

Phil: So is that homage to Frogger?

Tom: It may well be.

Phil: There's a lot of tips to the cap in this game.

Phil: I'll tell you that.

Phil: The people that made this game know the gaming world.

Phil: And I think that's why we enjoy it so much.

Phil: Can we probably leave it there?

Tom: I think before we get into spoilers, we may as well.

Tom: One thing I would add is, one of the other enjoyable things about this game, which I highly recommend, is look up, search for the thread on the Steam forum, about the religion theme, dot, because it is highly, highly entertaining.

Phil: Where is this?

Tom: This is on the Steam community page for the game.

Tom: Search for about the religion theme, dot dot dot.

Phil: Is this going to be spoiler free, or is this more laughing at other people kind of thing?

Tom: I think there will definitely be spoilers in it.

Phil: Okay, so I'll wait.

Tom: Yes, so wait until you've played the game, but it is very, very amusing.

Tom: The other thing was I saw a review on there, which I absolutely love, but I can't find it again.

Tom: And the review was essentially, this game is just shallow Nietzschean crap that Dostoevsky had already debunked, which I just absolutely loved.

Tom: I think that is a beautiful review.

Phil: Well, fantastic, but I agree with appreciating that statement, but also would Dostoevsky say it for me?

Tom: Dostoevsky.

Phil: Who I'm a fan of, or at least I enjoy the writing.

Phil: I don't know if I'm a fan because I just enjoy the literary quality of his work.

Phil: I haven't really dwelled on the philosophical.

Phil: But, you know, when he can make a video game, then I'll listen to that.

Phil: But, you know, this person's making a video game and saying that criticizing someone for making something out of clay when Leonardo da Vinci never-

Tom: Well, at first I was thinking along your line of thought, but then I did see that in the promotional copy for Indika, it does say, the world she discovers can only be described as a wild combination of comedy and tragedy straight out of the novels by Dostoevsky and Bulgakov, who I assume they meant to write Bulgakov there.

Tom: So maybe that criticism was not so unfounded.

Phil: Yeah, but I'll tell you this too, PR people are PR people, and PR people are not the developer, and the developer is not PR people.

Phil: That is true.

Phil: Someone develops a game, someone else's expertise is to market it.

Phil: They go, okay, you're Russian, right?

Phil: Yeah, Russian.

Phil: Okay, got it, got it, got it.

Phil: And they'll go off and do whatever they do.

Phil: So I'm not necessarily faulting the developer, especially because another publisher was involved with this.

Phil: If this was a game that was developed and published by one and the same, I think there'd be something there.

Phil: But to a certain point, a developer is beholden to the publisher who's granted them this wonderful opportunity to give a platform to their game.

Phil: And I listen to Brian Lamb interviews % of the time.

Phil: % of the time when the authors are asked, did they come up with the name of the book and did they come up with the image on the front of the book?

Phil: % of the time, the answer is no.

Phil: Of course.

Phil: They would have preferred to have called it something else.

Phil: They would have preferred to have a different image on it.

Phil: But they graciously go, but these people had a better idea.

Tom: I don't know if there's much grace involved so much as they have no choice.

Phil: They have no choice.

Phil: But I can't wait to get into spoiler territory with this, which we'll cover in episode

Tom: Before we end the show and move on, I want to keep the floor open for a more serious spoiler discussion of Indika.

Tom: So there's one last thing I wanted to say is I brought up that review, not because I don't think anyone should need any sort of credentials to criticize something someone else has produced.

Tom: But the thing that amused me so much about this review, and this would be an example of someone with no credentials criticizing two people with far greater credentials than them, but you're going from Nietzsche, who is not exactly the brightest tool in the shed, whose philosophy requires a lot of obscurantism in the case of his nonfiction writing to gain some sort of interest to it and a lot of beauty in the form of his fictional writing that depicts it to again embellish it and make it noteworthy when it otherwise would not be.

Tom: To Dostoevsky, who is only taken seriously by people who have had their entire world view and religious or other faith shattered by the likes of Nietzsche, because the religious themes in Dostoevsky are essentially his own, what's the incredibly racist American writer?

Tom: Horror writer and science fiction.

Phil: Which?

Tom: I know that that's a very wide open question.

Tom: Lovecraft.

Tom: Lovecraft is what I'm thinking of.

Tom: The religious themes in Dostoevsky novels are akin to Lovecraft's fears of other races in terms of the depth of thought involved.

Tom: Luckily, everything else about Dostoevsky is brilliant.

Tom: But I just thought it was hilarious that someone is criticizing this game with an example of a hack philosopher and someone far below the level of a hack philosopher response.

Tom: I would put the philosophy in this game on the level of both of those two authors.

Tom: Nietzsche gets credit for coming up with new ideas, though, whereas Dostoevsky definitely doesn't.

Tom: I should also add that Thus Spoke Zarathustra is one of my favorite books, as is The Brothers Karamazov.

Phil: Well, congratulations.

Tom: I think the Die of Destiny should roll before we end the show.

Tom: We never brought it out for Aperture Workshop.

Phil: A late die pool, okay.

Tom: Aperture Desk Shop gets a out of

Phil: Wow, good job, Desk.

Tom: And I think we're going to rate Thus Spoke Zarathustra as well.

Tom: Gets a out of

Phil: I agree with that.

Tom: Which is very unfortunate, but I think in some ways fair.

Tom: Have you read Thus Spoke Zarathustra?

Phil: I have not.

Tom: Did you attempt to read it and give up?

Phil: I did not.

Tom: So you have no experience with Thus Spoke Zarathustra?

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I'm just scoring it on.

Phil: I'm reading the book when it's covering.

Phil: I'm going, okay, Call of the Chutalu was bad enough.

Phil: With unpronounceable things, I can only go so far.

Phil: I'm sorry.

Tom: That's HP Lovecraft.

Tom: Yeah, I know.

Phil: I know.

Tom: There are similarities between the two.

Tom: More similarities between him and Drossaevsky, though.

Tom: Now we're going to rate Brothers Karamazov.

Tom: That gets a out of

Phil: I would have thought but yeah, okay.

Tom: So just to recap, out of for Aperture Desk Job, which makes it objectively superior to Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Phil: Which game, which content do you think is more self-aware?

Tom: I think Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I have to take your word for it.

Tom: And then we have a out of for Brothers Karamazov, which is without question the least self-aware of all three works we discussed today, which is perhaps why it received the highest rating.

Phil: The Da Never Lies.

Phil: And that's what we say here at The Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since so there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website.

Phil: Yes, we're not just a podcast, we have a website.

Phil: We're a podcast with a website, not a website with a podcast, so remember that when you go to gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question or make a comment, use our comment section from the front page for this episode.

Phil: Thanks again for listening to episode of The Game Under Podcast, Australia's longest running podcast, relating to video games, and possibly any subject matter.

Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers, and comment below if you'd like Phil to stop canceling me and discover finally the truth about a peonies.

Game Under Podcast 155

Stream below or right-click and download You can also listen on iTunes. Why not subscribe to us on RSS ?

0:00:23 Criteria for Top 100 Retro Games List

0:03:24 Chapter Markers!

0:03:49 "Bridge Games" + Metroid Prime 4

0:08:46 NEWS - PlayStation Cutting PS2 Funding

0:11:37 Commentary The State of VR

0:18:05 NEWS - Max Booty on Tango Closure

0:20:58 NEWS - Banana Game is not a Scam?

0:27:35 Phil's New Gaming PC Review

0:42:12 What We're Playing - This Bed We've Made and discussions of Sunset, Arcade Paradise and Dave the Diver

0:56:50 What We're Playing - Aperture Desk Job and discussion about Valve

1:03:00 E-mail - What ever happened to car combat games?

Transcript
Tom: Hello and welcome to Episode of The Game Under Podcast. I am Tom Towers, and I'm joined by Phil Fogg, my ever-present co-host.

Phil: Hello, Philius P.

Phil: Fogg here, but you can call me Phil.

Phil: You know, in the last episode, we had a lot of fun going over Retro Gamers Magazine, greatest retro games of all time, and we spent probably seven and a half minutes trying to figure out what the criteria was, like what platforms were included and what weren't, because there were some PlayStation games, but not all of them.

Phil: So I went back and I found the magazine, and this is what it says.

Phil: This will clarify everything.

Phil: You ready?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: So what, may you ask, qualifies as a retro game for this particular list?

Phil: Basically, the rules from issue allowed for any PC games released in and before and any console games from the PlayStation era.

Phil: So Xbox, GameCube, PlayStation and Nintendo's Game Boy Advance were all eligible, along with any home computers, consoles, handhelds and arcade games before that.

Phil: Which doesn't explain anything at all, because it says, well, the rules from issue allowed for PC games released.

Phil: Okay, fine.

Phil: Okay, so now I'm like thinking, I've got all of these magazines.

Phil: So now I've go find episode issue

Phil: I go through there's no list.

Phil: And I'm thinking, oh, they must have done a list before.

Phil: And now they're doing a list again.

Phil: It's completely cryptic.

Phil: And I eventually find that where they're stating what their rules will be for this competition.

Phil: And it basically says, I had to read it twice, but any game systems would be eligible from the start of when Retro Game Magazine started publishing, which is which is the dumbest cutoff of all time.

Phil: We started publishing our magazine in therefore any game before qualifies for retro.

Tom: So this was the real reason.

Phil: That's the real reason.

Phil: It wasn't even a clean cutoff, you know.

Tom: So that's why they invented a lie.

Phil: That's it.

Tom: I'm just curious as to why they even mentioned the issue where you would find the real reason if they were gonna lie about it.

Phil: Just tell us, just tell us in, you made the list.

Phil: Just it's one sentence.

Phil: They spent more time saying go back to issue than if it would have just said any game eligible before our first issue in is eligible for the list.

Phil: So anyway, I'm glad I got to the bottom of it because it's been bugging me since our last episode.

Tom: I will say that the fact that they reference the issue where they had a totally different reason to the one that they have now and stated it was the same reason is by far the most interesting and entertaining part of that entire list.

Phil: Absolutely.

Phil: So go back and listen to episode if you haven't already.

Phil: It's a fantastic segment.

Phil: And I do wanna mention that we do have chapter markers in all of our podcasts.

Phil: So if you're using a compatible podcast listening device and you don't like what we're talking about right now, you can skip forward to a segment that does interest you.

Phil: Or if you wanna go back and find something that's a good use for it as well.

Tom: Before we move on, can we just say that with that in mind, that's probably the second best game related list of all time.

Tom: I can't think of another game list other than Game Under's incredible Games of the Decade list that had anything positive in it whatsoever.

Phil: Yeah, well, I was surprised that you, and you know, this is in the news this week, that you rated Metroid Prime.

Phil: Where do you rate Metroid Prime again?

Tom: The original is a contender for greatest game of all time.

Phil: This is, yeah, and this is something that we haven't talked about in the, whatever many years we've been doing this show, I think, which was really surprising to me.

Phil: So how did you take the Metroid Prime news from the Nintendo Direct last week?

Tom: What was the Metroid Prime news?

Phil: Well, basically, the prior information was that it was just a logo, and that was a few years ago, and then Nintendo came out and said, look, a Japanese developer was working on it for them, and they basically, in a very un-Nintendo-like fashion, said this Japanese developer isn't getting it, it's not working, it's not gelling, and that's when they handed it back to Retro, which is, I believe, a Texas-based developer, and they're the ones that did Metroid Prime.

Phil: Now, who knows how many of the original developers or people involved with the game are still with Retro after all these years.

Phil: Because Retro's been doing the Donkey Kong Country games and little much else.

Phil: They handed it over to them, so it's just been basically in development hell, and it's kind of just been an ongoing joke because they announced it three or four years ago and all we've got to show for it is a logo.

Tom: I think it was originally announced seven years ago.

Phil: Seven, wow.

Phil: Okay, that fits with the timeline of the Switch.

Phil: And so they basically have said, they showed gameplay at the Nintendo Direct and didn't say, well, they said it's coming out next year.

Phil: And so people don't know if it's gonna be a launch for the new Switch, if it's gonna be a Bridge Game, between the Switch and the Switch like they've done in the last couple of console releases.

Tom: It certainly looks like a Switch Game to me.

Phil: Yeah, and that's what Digital Foundry did a big bright up analysis on.

Tom: They apparently needed, IGN needed tech experts.

Phil: Tech experts.

Tom: To say a Switch Game looks like a Switch Game.

Phil: Switch Game.

Phil: But they might just be showing the Switch version.

Phil: But then I thought, what is a, what is a Bridge Game if the Switch is backwards compatible?

Phil: Like what does that actually mean?

Phil: Right?

Phil: Because if the Switch is backwards compatible, when you release the game, what are you gonna do?

Phil: It's not like in the, on the Wii U or on the Switch where they released Twilight Princess, and then, you know, they had a Wii U version and they had the Switch version.

Phil: If the Switch is backwards compatible, why you can't do a Bridge Game because people will just buy one version or the other.

Tom: Well, they did with the PS

Tom: There were a lot of, not a lot, but a reasonable number of games where there was a PSand a PSversion.

Tom: So I would suspect if there were improvements available on the Switch that that might be what they would do.

Tom: But what if, in fact, it is a Switch game and the Switch essentially produces graphics that looks like the Switch?

Phil: Well, that would be extremely disappointing, obviously, because the whole point of a Switch is upgraded graphics.

Phil: But, you know, I mean, they could release it, they could release a Switch version, and then they could release a Switch version.

Phil: And so that they're taking advantage of the current install base, or also providing a new game for people who have taken the plunge with the new console.

Phil: I think in that way, you could still have a Bridge game.

Phil: And that way, when the people who bought it for Switch upgrade to Switch now it still works on the new Switch

Phil: So there's no reason for, because it could forestall sales if you were a Switch owner, and then they're like, oh, well, it could cause people to hold off and go, oh, well, I'll just wait until I get a Switch then I'll buy it.

Phil: So if you're releasing a lower res version on the Switch, people are still gonna buy it with the confidence that they can use it on their Switch when they do finally go and upgrade.

Phil: Because the whole point of a Bridge game is to maximize sales on the basis of your existing install base.

Tom: Yeah, of course.

Phil: Okay, so somehow we drifted into the news.

Phil: I guess the first story is, well, the first story is a report that PlayStation is cutting PlayStation VRfunding.

Phil: And the credit for this goes to androidcentral.com.

Phil: The PlayStation VRhas been a pretty good VR headset.

Phil: It's been widely accepted by a lot of people in terms of its build quality and its improvements.

Phil: The controllers and the headset have been receiving, you know, generally good praise.

Phil: There are over games currently available for it with call outs like Horizon Call of the Mountain, Gran Turismo is the killer app for it.

Phil: And then Resident Evil Village and the REremake has also, you know, gotten attention.

Phil: Well, sources close to Android Central has revealed that Sony is making deep cuts to funding for VR games.

Phil: And they said that there would be very few opportunities for VR game development at Sony going forward.

Phil: Another source said that there are only two PlayStation VR games that are in development at Sony currently.

Phil: Now, you'll remember back in March, there was a report that Sony had stopped production of the PS VRbecause of overstocked.

Phil: They had too much inventory that they hadn't sold.

Phil: And then another indication that Sony was packing it in was that they announced in August that they're going to release a PC adapter for about bucks US that will enable you to use your PlayStation VRheadset on a PC and have full access to full compatibility with Steam's lineup of VR games.

Tom: Only Steam games or other PC VR games?

Phil: Well, they're saying that it will work with all of Steam's VR games.

Phil: So I'm sure that it will have broader compatibility as people muck around with it and work with it.

Phil: I don't think that they've got an exclusive deal or anything.

Phil: They're just saying, well, the work's already been done with Steam VR, so you can have confidence buying this thing for your PC that it will work with all of those games.

Phil: I think it would only be natural to assume that they will have broader compatibility.

Phil: People muck around with it and there's no reason for them to block it out.

Phil: So it looks like they developed this really great product.

Phil: Someone, somewhere, Sony changed their mind on it and they dumped it, basically.

Phil: I mean, the PC adapter could be seen as trying to broaden the market for their VR offerings, but really it's not.

Phil: I mean, it looks to me like they've made a cheap adapter just to move the units that they've got excess stock of.

Tom: I was surprised to begin with that they even made a second one.

Phil: Oh, I was too.

Phil: And they did a fantastic job.

Phil: That's the issue.

Phil: But strategically, I guess, you know, and this is a broader conversation, but is VR marginalized to such an extent at this point, where at the point where they made the decision to do the VRby the time they finished it and got it out, the, what do you say, the bloom had come off the rose of virtual reality.

Tom: I think at this stage, still the only hope for VR remains Facebook, because I think Zuckerberg has some personal fixation on it.

Tom: I don't know if they're still heading in the direction of wanting to invent this whole metaverse concept that they had, but I think that's the only realistic hope that VR has at this stage.

Phil: Well, I think we reported it, or perhaps it was while you were aboard, I reported that they're losing over a billion dollars a month.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: On developing it because of his sick obsession with this stuff.

Phil: I mean, you've got a Quest right?

Phil: What is your experience?

Phil: You were super impressed with it when you got it.

Phil: I mean, do you still use it?

Phil: Are you still just as enthusiastic about it?

Tom: I was still using it until the strap broke.

Phil: Oh, yeah.

Phil: I think you described the strap as being the most overpriced but undervalued.

Tom: Well, that broke.

Tom: Yeah, the Elite strap was a superior version of the strap.

Tom: That broke first.

Phil: It's like a $strap, isn't it?

Tom: Yep, it is.

Phil: And you need it to actually have the thing work comfortably and productively.

Tom: Comfortably, yes.

Tom: Then, yep, so that broke.

Tom: Then following that, the plastic, tiny little, very flimsy looking plastic bar that you meant to tension a velcro strap to, which I always thought looked a pretty questionable feat of engineering to have this tiny little plastic bar that predictably has also snapped.

Tom: So the headset is only wearable with the horizontal strap attached to it, not the vertical strap.

Tom: I suppose they're both really horizontal, but the strap that goes around the back of your head, not the strap that goes over the top of your head.

Phil: You're a pretty smart fellow.

Phil: Do you think you could engineer something out of a bike helmet or, you know, using bike helmet materials, if you stripped the stuff out of a bike helmet?

Tom: I'm not sure, because you would have to figure out a way to attach it to the helmet, which would be the issue.

Phil: We should ask Helmet Helmetson about this.

Phil: What was funny about...

Phil: When they first brought out the PlayStation VR, it was really funny listening to all these video game geeks, of which I am one, I will say, but I'm also a cyclist, and they were like, yeah, this is amazing.

Phil: You just turn this dial on the back of the thing, and it fits to your head.

Phil: It's like an amazing feat of engineering.

Phil: And it's like, that's every bike helmet in the last years.

Phil: You clearly have never worn a bike helmet.

Phil: That's just a funny aside.

Phil: So you're saying that Zuckerberg is your final hope?

Tom: I think so.

Phil: Would you buy a new Quest or...?

Tom: I very much do not like buying poorly engineered products that are broken.

Tom: So I would want to try and find some way of potentially fixing it.

Tom: But I am yet to figure out a solution.

Tom: It's still usable for short periods of time.

Tom: But if you want to play something for a longer period, it is definitely a little bit awkward.

Phil: What is the best VR game?

Tom: I think my favorite remains the Space Channel game.

Tom: I think that's just a perfect use of the medium.

Tom: But I started Half-Life Alyx and was enjoying that more than any other Half-Life game I'd played before the strap Committed Suicide.

Phil: So you would have given that game a out of

Tom: Maybe a .

Phil: .

Phil: Yeah, let's not get carried away.

Phil: Okay, so back to PlayStation dropping this thing.

Phil: Can you imagine if you were a consumer who had bought one of these?

Phil: I mean, this is not good.

Phil: This is not a good look for Sony.

Phil: Releasing this product...

Phil: Now, keeping in mind there's been leadership changes in Sony gaming.

Phil: So usually when a new person comes in, they can see something's a dead dog.

Phil: The old people who were there have sunken cost theory going on where they're like, no, no, no, it'll be good.

Phil: It'll be good.

Phil: Let's just keep going.

Phil: Because we've spent so much money on it at this point.

Phil: Whereas a new person come in and go, this is not working.

Phil: And I think that coming out with a $USD PC adapter is a very clever and intelligent way to continue to support it and to tell your people that have already bought it, well, hey, you know, there's still other games.

Phil: You can go play it on your PC.

Phil: But the kind of people that go out and buy a PlayStation with a VRyou know, don't usually...

Phil: There's not usually a big cross-section of people that also have gaming PCs, I would say.

Phil: I mean, the whole appeal of Sony's thing is that you plug it into your TV and you go.

Tom: I think the sort of people who would be buying a VR headset, there's a reasonable chance they would have a gaming PC.

Phil: Yeah, yeah, I hear you.

Phil: I do hear you.

Phil: You have to be pretty committed.

Phil: You're right.

Phil: So on a scale of to like how disappointed should we be in this?

Tom: I think if you're a VR headset only, you'd be very disappointed.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: I think if I was, I would be, I'd be violently angry if I'd bought one of these for my PlayStation.

Tom: But I also think it's a pretty predictable thing to have occurred as well.

Phil: It is sad.

Phil: But obviously the people that were, you know, invested in it emotionally at Sony are no longer there, and that's essentially what's happened.

Tom: I need to hire Mark Zuckerberg.

Phil: Yeah, get the Zuck, get the Zuck in there.

Phil: Next story.

Phil: Xbox Head implies Tango Game Works closure may have been due to a change of leadership.

Phil: So we had speculated, maybe in the last episode or before, Tango Game Works was the Shinji Mikami studio that Microsoft acquired with the acquisition of Bethesda.

Phil: And after they released Hi-Fi Rush to great fanfare and critical acceptance, they closed down the studio.

Phil: And everyone's like, and Matt Booty, who, you know, fantastic name, Matt Booty at Microsoft said, hey, we need to make more games like Hi-Fi Rush.

Phil: And we're closing the studio that made Hi-Fi Rush.

Phil: And everyone's like, oh, Hippocrate, you know, how can these two things gel?

Phil: And I had speculated, we had speculated together that, you know, Bethesda may have brought in Shinji Mikami to create his own studio, to sort of dress up themselves for a potential sale.

Phil: And then of course, it's a studio that started for a celebrity developer.

Phil: Once that celebrity developer leaves, where's the cache?

Phil: Where's the talent?

Phil: Like, what's the point for having it?

Phil: And again, because Microsoft isn't emotional about starting this studio, they're kind of like, well, it doesn't make sense anymore.

Phil: In any case, the story is, here's a quote from Matt Booty.

Phil: There are a lot of things that go into success for a game.

Phil: What leadership do you have?

Phil: What creative leadership do you have?

Phil: Is the team the same team that shipped something successful previously?

Phil: We have to look at all of those things together and ask ourselves, are we set up for success going forward?

Phil: And while there may have been factors that previously led to success, they may not all be still in place as you look at what you're doing going forward.

Phil: So he didn't directly state it, but Shinji Mikami left the studio in

Phil: He directed The Evil Within and oversaw Tango's other games in an executive producer role.

Phil: And obviously he's famous for his Capcom era.

Phil: So yeah, his decision to leave Tango apparently did have an impact on the studio's value to Microsoft based on those statements.

Phil: So not a lot of new things to say there, just basically now that things have calmed down, they've gone ahead and basically confirmed what we thought had happened over there.

Tom: We're essentially bringing it up just to gloat about being correct.

Phil: That is it.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: I'm breaking my arm to pat myself on the back.

Phil: I mean, and it's just it is just logical at the end of it.

Phil: I mean, like, you know, people like to say, oh, but Hi-Fi Rush is such a great game.

Phil: How can I shut down that studio?

Phil: Well, because the guy left and probably a lot of other people left with him or left because he left.

Phil: Next story, Banana Game is not a scam, says developer.

Phil: Credit for this story goes to Eurogamer.

Phil: Are you familiar with Banana Game?

Tom: No, I'm not.

Phil: Has broad appeal because it's free and it's on Steam and it's a clicker, clicker game.

Phil: Basically, you click on the image of a banana and leave the software running and you eventually get a banana dropped into your Steam inventory.

Phil: So you know your Steam inventory where you get, you know, you're playing a game, you can unlock the cards and everything.

Phil: And then depending on the rarity of these bananas, they're selling for up to $

Phil: Some of them are selling for cents, some of them are selling for $

Phil: So they're, you know, different stylized bananas.

Phil: So what does this sound like to you?

Tom: So it's an NFT gambling game, essentially.

Phil: And you might also speculate that, oh, well, you don't even actually have to do anything.

Phil: You just have to open up the application and leave it running.

Phil: And then you'll get all this cool stuff, right?

Phil: So that to me sounds like someone who's using your processor to mine Bitcoin.

Phil: So basically what has happened, I'll just read what their quote was, as I started stammering and humming.

Phil: As you all have heard by now, developer involved with the steam market Bitcoin scam bug.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: I'm just going to call this guy Thess, right?

Phil: As you all have heard by now, Thess used to be involved in a steam market Bitcoin scam bug.

Phil: We did not know about this until recent videos started to point this out.

Phil: And we had a talk almost immediately with the whole team about the situation.

Phil: We gave him a chance to explain the situation to us.

Phil: And we know he is showing remorse and he is sorry for what happened in the past.

Phil: They went on to say banana team is part of ways with Thess because of this revelation, adding quote, that his inventory has been cleared of any valuable bananas that could be of concern or worry the community.

Phil: The banana developer went on to state that there is no scamming, no scam going on.

Phil: And the remaining members are currently working to update the game.

Phil: What does that sound like to you?

Tom: Are they trying to update it to insert the scam or remove the scam?

Phil: Remove the scam.

Phil: Yeah, I just love that.

Phil: There's no scamming going on and the remaining members of the team are working to update the game.

Phil: So if you feel like you've been scammed, you're only scammed for a little bit and you might be getting scammed right now until we update the game, but we are removing the scam.

Phil: Yeah, so that is just hilarious.

Phil: I mean, anytime a developer has to make a public statement that the game is not a scam, it's almost like that painting.

Phil: Was it Matisse?

Phil: The cigar is not a cigar?

Tom: I don't think it was Matisse.

Phil: No, it wasn't Matisse.

Phil: But anyway, I just thought that was a funny story that had to be included.

Phil: Now, some speculate, like why would people pay $for a picture of a banana just because it's rare, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And some are speculating that this could also be a money laundering type scheme, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: So you're the company in the middle, you get to decide who receives these ultra rare bananas and then the party that needs to launder their money buys the rare banana at a percentage cost and then that money is returned back to the party that bought the banana for the percentage that has to happen with the middleman.

Phil: I think that's pretty good speculation for all of this NFT stuff, honestly.

Tom: On the one hand, yes.

Tom: On the other hand, there have been some pretty similarly idiotic things occurring in the Steam market before.

Tom: So they were usually related to games that had a fandom behind them.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: Well, I think there'd be a fair amount of money laundering going on with the Steam marketplace, period, anyway, regardless of the fan base or anything else.

Phil: I mean, it's a great way to launder money, in my opinion.

Tom: Are you speaking from experience?

Phil: No, I have no money to launder.

Phil: I mean, I have money, but I don't need to launder it.

Phil: Yeah, so anyway, that wraps up our news.

Phil: And Julian Assange is back in Australia, and I wonder what he'll be playing.

Phil: I know what he'll be listening to, which is Australia's longest running video game podcast.

Phil: Because he's been away for years.

Phil: We've been going for about years.

Phil: It's possible that he listened to the first show and then did the deed.

Tom: What was the deed he did?

Phil: Oh, you know, release a bunch of information on the internet.

Tom: I thought you were referring to something he did in captivity.

Phil: No, I've heard some stories.

Phil: Yeah, that too.

Phil: I don't think our episode promulgates people to allegedly, you know, commit acts of sexual violence.

Phil: And none of those charges were laid.

Phil: So obviously they had no legitimacy and cannot possibly be true.

Tom: Okay, so I read a long article one day by someone who was meant to write the ghost write his autobiography.

Tom: And he was describing meeting him and driving around, driving around with him.

Tom: So I don't think he was in captivity at this point.

Phil: Okay, very good.

Phil: And we've been not responsible.

Tom: Other than the fact that it was like words and words long, words long, sorry.

Tom: And the only content was basically the authors growing annoyance and hatred of Julian Assange, which one has to wonder, of course, given the fact that he did not end up writing his autobiography, whether he was pissed off because Julian Assange was a singularly obnoxious person or because he was pissed off because he didn't choose him to write the autobiography.

Tom: It was just a potentially unintentionally hilarious article.

Phil: I would love to read that.

Phil: And here in Australia, we're considering whether nuclear power should start to be used.

Phil: I think if there was some way, how a possible way to harness Julian Assange's ego, we'd probably have enough power to last us for a few hundred years.

Phil: Before we get into what we've been playing, I've got to mention my new gaming PC arrived.

Tom: Congratulations.

Phil: Oh, it is glorious.

Phil: It is absolutely glorious to have a computer that is dedicated solely to gaming hooked up to a high definition television.

Phil: It is fantastic.

Phil: It's not the computer you go and do your work on and do your accounting and all this other stuff.

Phil: There's no messaging.

Phil: There's no nothing.

Phil: It's just you turn it on.

Phil: The thing comes on immediately.

Phil: It boots way faster than any game console I've ever had, except obviously cartridge based Nintendo Genesis stuff.

Phil: And it's fantastic.

Phil: It looks great.

Phil: The presentation of the case is wonderful.

Phil: Basically, it's white and it's got all these rainbow like LEDs.

Phil: The only thing you can see through thing, the whole thing is glass.

Phil: But all you see is the processor and the video card.

Phil: And then everything else is hidden.

Phil: And it's a marvelous display.

Phil: But besides that, it's just great to have a reason to play PC games.

Phil: And because it's hooked up to the TV, it's not like I got to go to another room, boot up Windows, better check my email.

Phil: No, I just go in, turn it on like a console, go into my Steam library and other great libraries as well.

Phil: Of note, I'm always talking about if you have an Amazon Prime subscription, you should take advantage of the Amazon Games.

Phil: I mean, they give lots of really good games away, and interesting games, not just indie games either, but old games as well.

Phil: And it's all a part of your Amazon Prime subscription anyway.

Phil: Well, I was thinking they've made it really difficult for me to reinstall the client and have it link up with my existing installs because I took the hard drive out of my old computer and then slapped it on as a secondary drive in the new one.

Phil: But I'll figure that out.

Phil: But if you go into the secondary drive and just click on the executables of the games, you own them.

Phil: You've got them.

Phil: It doesn't need Amazon as an intermediary to go, oh, yeah, you actually own this game.

Phil: So you don't need it.

Phil: You can just play it.

Phil: And then you can add those games to your Steam library because as you probably know, you can add non-Steam games to your Steam library.

Phil: And then, you know, they're accessible through Steam.

Phil: So yeah, kudos to Amazon for that.

Phil: Good old games, similar kind of situation, but not quite as smooth.

Phil: I haven't quite figured out that one yet.

Phil: But yeah, I mean, I love it.

Phil: I'm in love with PC gaming.

Phil: I just gaming, it's not even a PC gaming at this point.

Phil: It's just fantastic.

Phil: The only thing that I'm looking at now is I've got a very small Steam library, I think, by most people's standards.

Phil: Do you even know how many games you've got in your Steam library?

Tom: No, and I'm not sure I want to know.

Phil: Yeah, I've only got like installed, I think.

Phil: And I'm scrolling.

Tom: Installed, you've got installed?

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Tom: I think I have installed.

Phil: ?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: And you've got all the internet in the world?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Okay, this seems like a travesty.

Phil: Anyway, I'm scrolling through them and going, yeah, played that, yeah, played that, yeah, played that.

Phil: And now I just want to be a downloading fiend and get more of these games, including a game we're going to be talking about next episode, Indica, which I thought was going to be a racing game because I thought it was Indica, but it's not, it's something else.

Phil: But, you know, the Phil Fogg moment came where I brought it home, I hooked it up to a monitor, you know, booted it, and it's not, nothing happens.

Phil: Absolutely nothing happens.

Phil: I can't figure out what's going on.

Phil: So what do you think?

Phil: Maybe the RAM's not seated?

Tom: So is it not booting at all?

Phil: No, the power light comes on, but there's nothing on the display.

Phil: So I try, you know, OK, fine, I go to another monitor, I go to another HDMI cable.

Phil: No, nothing.

Phil: There's no sound.

Phil: There's no fans coming on, you know.

Tom: So the fans are off?

Phil: Well, the fans are off, but all the LEDs light up, you know.

Phil: Like, so there's power going on there.

Phil: And after about five minutes, the fans did kick in because they're like, like, you know, something's going on here.

Phil: This is crazy.

Phil: So I start taking it apart.

Phil: I contact the seller and they're not available.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Contact, I take it apart.

Phil: I'm like, okay, where's the hard drives on this thing?

Phil: So I get down to, because I told you, all you see is the video card and the processor that's on display and the RAM, which is all lit up, right?

Phil: That's what you see through the window.

Phil: But then you can flip it over, take off the hard side.

Phil: And I've got this hidden little cavity for the hard drives and the PSU, power supply unit.

Phil: And I go to look at the hard drive because I'm like, oh, it's like it doesn't have a hard drive.

Phil: There is no hard drive on the system at all.

Phil: Like, there's no hard drive.

Phil: I can see all the cables.

Phil: There's plenty of cables there.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: So now I'm like, well, this is just bloody classic.

Phil: This is.

Phil: So I contact the part.

Phil: It tells me, OK, here's the photo.

Phil: There's no hard drives in it.

Phil: And I go back and look at the list of things.

Phil: Like, maybe I bought it and I didn't buy a hard drive, but it comes with Windows Professional.

Phil: So how can it come with Windows Professional if they don't have a hard drive, like a paid for, you know, like, yeah, nothing.

Tom: I will maybe come with a Windows disk.

Phil: No, no, no Windows disk.

Phil: So I'm like, OK, well, maybe it's a thing where you go online, you redeem the code, you download Windows

Phil: And maybe I'm an idiot because I bought a computer without a hard drive.

Phil: There is no hard drive in the system whatsoever.

Phil: So I start going down a list of OK, yeah.

Tom: But if that were the case, why didn't it boot to BIOS?

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: I'm trying to boot to BIOS.

Phil: I'm pressing Delete.

Phil: I'm pressing F

Phil: I'm pressing F

Phil: You know, I'm trying to boot to BIOS.

Phil: Nothing's happening.

Phil: So I go down a list of what it's got.

Phil: gigabytes of RAM.

Phil: That's good.

Phil: Not as good as my cheap computer as we talked about last week.

Phil: Had, would I say, terabytes of RAM?

Tom: I think gigabytes.

Phil: Gigabytes of RAM.

Phil: And a gigabyte drive.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Which is all...

Phil: It should have been the show title.

Phil: gigabytes of RAM.

Tom: Which, incidentally, is the amount of RAM that the banana game uses.

Phil: Uses, yeah.

Phil: And enough to take down the Pentagon.

Phil: So, I'm looking at the list of what's in this thing.

Phil: I'm like, okay, here's the thing that looks like the hard drive.

Phil: And it's called a...

Phil: This is where the joke comes in, people.

Phil: NVMe, one terabyte, you know, memory.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: Whatever.

Phil: I'm like, okay, so I go on the internet.

Phil: What's NVMe, right?

Phil: Do you know what NVMe is?

Tom: I believe this is a type of SSD.

Phil: It is.

Phil: It is basically like an SSD that is the size of a RAM stick.

Phil: It's actually smaller.

Phil: It's like the size of a playing card, but not as wide.

Phil: It has this terabyte drive in there.

Phil: It's just you can't actually see it because it's basically like embedded into the board.

Phil: And it's like a whatever terabyte size drive.

Phil: So it's there.

Phil: That's what it is.

Phil: Yeah, it didn't have a hard drive, but it's got this solid state thing that looks like a small stick of ram, like a piece of chewing gum.

Phil: So now I'm like, OK, I know that that's it and whatever.

Phil: I don't know how I eventually got it to actually boot, but then it booted and it's been fine ever since.

Tom: So you took it apart, then reassembled it, right?

Phil: I took it apart, reassembled it.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: So I presume that something was not plugged in correctly.

Phil: Something was not perhaps seated, but I wasn't going around pushing in RAM and doing all that sort of thing.

Phil: So I don't know why the initial thing didn't work, but it's good now and now I know what NVMe is.

Phil: And that just shows you how long I've been out of the game with PCs because I was not even aware that this even happened.

Phil: Do you have some of this stuff in your computer?

Tom: Yep, so NVMe SSDs were definitely around when you bought yours.

Tom: Because I think you built mine, sorry, you built yours after I built mine, didn't you?

Phil: No, no, no, no.

Phil: My old PC was old.

Tom: Oh yeah, you upgraded the graphics.

Phil: Yeah, it came with Windows

Phil: And so on that one we upgraded the processor and the video card with your systems.

Phil: And that worked really well for a long time, but eventually the BIOS wasn't playing with the video card and then the video card fried.

Phil: I don't know if I told you the video card, I don't know the video card fried, but what happened is I moved it over, hooked it up to a TV and then the TV died.

Phil: So I don't know if there was some sort of electrical type issue that has then now corrupted either the motherboard or the video card.

Phil: But yeah, I'll send you the old video card if you want, if you have any interest in it.

Tom: Sure.

Phil: Yeah, righto.

Phil: Maybe you can mine some Bitcoin, play the banana game.

Phil: So it's been a fantastic experience.

Phil: Any questions for me before we go into what we've been playing?

Tom: What games have you actually played on?

Phil: Oh, just basically stuff out of my Steam library.

Phil: So of course, the first game I played was something that was completely low res and I can't even remember.

Phil: I just wanted to see that it was working.

Phil: But the game I played next was Superhot, which was absolutely fantastic on a big TV.

Phil: And then since then, I've just sort of been dabbling.

Phil: I've been playing old racing games, played The Beginner's Guide, just indie games, stuff like that, and a game that I'll talk about, Death's Job from Valve.

Phil: So yeah, I mean, it's snappy, it's great.

Phil: I should have done it a long time ago.

Tom: What resolution is your TV?

Tom: Okay, yep.

Phil: Yeah, and from all my concerns, I was really hoping that I would hook it up to the TV and then walk back into the room to my wife and go, well, now we need to get another TV.

Phil: You know, I was hoping it would look like garbage, and I'd have a fantastic excuse to get rid of this really good TV that has some age to it.

Phil: But yeah, it's working fine.

Phil: It's great.

Phil: It hasn't got HDR.

Phil: But you know, I've got plenty of other good TVs.

Phil: Eventually, I'll shuffle them all around and get the best TV onto this.

Phil: I've got a -inch TV I bought last year, which is ridiculously good.

Tom: I presume that will be K.

Phil: Yeah, it is K.

Phil: But the problem is it's so big that it doesn't fit in any of the vehicles I own, and it's at the other place, so I can't get it back to here, which is a downside, people.

Phil: When you're buying -inch TVs, just consider that you'll never be able to get them repaired without hiring a truck.

Phil: Yeah, that's ultimately going to be the goal, because on that TV, that's completely reinvigorated my passion for PlayStation because it just brings all your games alive.

Phil: And I think that's part of the deal.

Phil: If you're going to be console gaming, you've got to invest in a good TV, just as you do with a good stereo system or a good sound system, in my opinion.

Phil: You know, now I've learned all these things as old as I am.

Phil: Some of these things you just shouldn't put off.

Tom: Would you say if you're playing old games, you should have a CRT TV?

Phil: No, I mean, I do have a CRT, a couple of CRTs.

Phil: And these days with emulation, you know, you've got to be really persnickety to care that much anymore.

Phil: It would be wonderful to have a reliable CRT, because they bring a warmth, just like, you know, records bring that analog type feel to it.

Phil: But I don't think it's necessary anymore.

Tom: And before we move on, I will just say, I checked my stream library, and there are games in it.

Tom: But that does include games from shared libraries.

Phil: Oh, well, there you go.

Tom: So we defined that there's four people involved here.

Tom: Five, if we're including you, but I don't know if your steam library is linked or not.

Phil: Well, I think it used to be, at least, and we can re-link it.

Tom: So we'll just divide it by five anyway.

Tom: So

Phil: Yeah, righto.

Tom: So you're about behind.

Phil: Well, I think the only thing holding me back now is internet.

Phil: And I found out that Starlink is available in my area.

Phil: And by my area, I mean the continent of Australia.

Phil: So Starlink is the Elon Musk satellites in the sky.

Phil: They put all those satellites up there that's all space junk, you know, like stupid satellites up there.

Phil: And it's been getting rave reviews from a lot of people in my area.

Phil: The downside is it's pretty expensive.

Phil: It's $per month.

Tom: That's not bad.

Tom: That's similar to reasonable internet in the suburbs.

Phil: So yeah, I'm considering it.

Phil: But right now, the best internet I can get in my area is $a month.

Phil: And I know I sound like a cheapskate, but I guess I am.

Phil: You know, that's a big jump up just to justify.

Phil: The only justification for it is my gaming.

Phil: But yeah, you know, maybe a little bit more cajoling.

Phil: You'll encourage me somewhere along the way.

Tom: Well, for reasonable internet in a city in Australia, in Melbourne anyway, you'd be expecting to be paying at least $per month.

Phil: Is that right?

Phil: And you've got fiber to the curb, don't you?

Tom: I think we've got the crappy mixed one, but it's possible to upgrade to the proper fiber if we want to.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: OK, so now let's move on to what we've been playing.

Phil: I'd like to hear from you for a while.

Phil: What have you been playing?

Tom: Well, I think we mentioned it a few episodes ago, and it is This Bed We've Made.

Tom: It's essentially a work simulator where you are playing as a maid who works in a hotel in s Canada, and she is snooping around her guest stuff because she enjoys snooping, apparently.

Tom: Not for any reason to begin with.

Phil: Everyone enjoys snooping.

Phil: I think the only reason a cleaner wouldn't snoop is if they don't have time and are overworked.

Tom: Probably.

Phil: How could you not snoop?

Tom: You know the classic cleaning game, I think it was called Sunset?

Phil: Oh, that game was great.

Tom: I think one of the most interesting things about that was it made the snooping feel incidental to the work.

Phil: In what way?

Tom: I don't know, the two were sort of seamlessly there.

Tom: Where obviously you were trying to find out as much information as you could about what was going on.

Tom: But the way they integrated it just naturally into the environment you were in, you naturally came across, particularly in the beginning, so much information that it wasn't like you were needed to deliberately look for it until a mystery sort of started building.

Phil: Yeah, we should get back to, well, we can't get back to the developer, they've gone out of business, but that was a great ride that we had with that developer.

Tom: It was.

Phil: I think they did Suburbia Luxuria and a walk in the woods or something like that.

Phil: That was a great period for the podcast.

Tom: I think for gaming as well.

Phil: Yeah, definitely.

Phil: Well, they, I believe were a French married couple that had developed those games and with some other people as well.

Phil: I don't want to, you know, minimize other people's involvement in the development of them.

Phil: But so this bit we made, just describe the mechanics of it.

Phil: Like, is it a D side scroller type click and explore?

Tom: Follow me on to that.

Tom: Just on the snooping, it's in stark contrast to sunset where it is very much something you're doing separate to your work.

Tom: But one of the most interesting things mechanically is while you're doing your snooping, you also do need to do your actual made duties.

Tom: So you need to change the linen, change pillows, clean up after the guests and all that sort of thing.

Tom: The actual mechanics in terms of gameplay are pretty simple, though.

Tom: If you're changing a bed, if you're making a bed, you click on the bed and you'll, this is if you're playing with keyboard or mouse, you'll drag the sheets up the bed, then the blankets, then the bed topper, basically.

Tom: So it's pretty simple stuff like that.

Tom: Some things you'll just click, like you'll click on a dirty set of pillows, they'll disappear.

Tom: You'll go and get some new ones from your cart, go back into the room and click on where the pillow should be.

Tom: If there's pillows on the bed that just need to be made, you'll just click on the pillows, that sort of thing.

Tom: So it is very rudimentary in its mechanics in terms of cleaning up the rooms.

Phil: One of the games I've been playing is The Beginner's Guide, and that's basically like an in-game documentary about a guy who has been making these various games and someone talking about it.

Phil: And one of them involves cleaning up a house where you just go and click on a bed, but then it's instantly made, which is far more rudimentary than what you're talking about.

Phil: And we should say that Sunset was developed by, you'll remember all this, a developer called Tale of Tales that were based in Belgium.

Phil: And Lee Alexander was one of the consultants on Sunset specifically.

Phil: There's a name that we haven't talked about for a long time as well.

Tom: I wonder what she was consulted on specifically.

Tom: Was she a cleaning expert?

Tom: Was she there for quality assurance?

Tom: Did she know a lot about South American politics?

Tom: Or was she merely a marketing gimmick?

Phil: Possibly the latter.

Phil: Everything I'm reading on a Wikipedia page is in the past tense.

Phil: So, yeah, there you go.

Phil: So, okay, so you're making up the rooms, but where's the snooping involved?

Tom: Well, as she's snooping around in one of the guest rooms, she discovers that the guest has photographs of her.

Phil: Oh, creepy.

Tom: Indeed.

Tom: So she starts to wonder if the guest is stalking her.

Tom: And at this point, you go and talk to two other characters in the hotel.

Tom: One of them works at the front desk, and the other one, I can't remember what his job was, but he had red hair and glasses, and you pick between them essentially as to who is going to be accompanying you in solving this mystery.

Tom: And as you can probably guess, I chose the woman at the front desk as opposed to the redheaded man, as I recall a few details about him.

Phil: Well, I see a picture of this redheaded man on the Steam page for this game, and we should say this game is available.

Phil: It came out last year,

Phil: It's available for $AUD, and in terms of its reviews, it's been broadly well received.

Phil: But yeah, I'm looking at this picture of this guy, and yeah, I would not be picking him.

Phil: He looks a bit weird and creepy.

Tom: Well, he is a nerd.

Tom: So I said he is a nerd, so he might be the more relatable character to some people playing the game.

Tom: But not to us.

Tom: We're nothing like him.

Phil: No, of course not.

Tom: But so you choose who is going to accompany you on this journey.

Tom: And so as you continue investigating this mystery, you are making phone calls to the front desk or to the nerd wherever he may be, which will forever remain a mystery, depending on who you choose to play, to accompany you on your journey.

Tom: And they'll be talking to you about what's happening, trying to help you solve the mystery that is occurring, which does balloon into something more significant than a potentially creepy guest as you're going from room to room.

Tom: And seeing how the other guests in the room are connected to the mystery as well.

Phil: I don't want to spoil it, and I can't possibly because I've not played it or read anything about it, but does it involve a sex cult?

Tom: No, it doesn't.

Phil: Oh, well, there's a lost opportunity.

Tom: Disappointing.

Tom: There is no sex cult, but there is a lot of sexual deviancy involved because it turns out that the hotel is a hotbed of deviant for the era sexual activity, which I will not detail because it is a potential spoiler territory.

Tom: But the fact that you can choose between a male or female companion for your quest might imply just what sort of deviancy is occurring on a mass scale within this s Canadian hotel.

Phil: Well, I think you probably don't have to say much.

Phil: I think we all know that the deviancy at the time would have been anything other than the missionary position between a man and a woman.

Tom: Correct.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So it leaves a broad scope of deviancy available.

Phil: So have you finished this game?

Tom: Yes, I have.

Phil: And so, I mean, would you recommend it?

Tom: I would.

Tom: I think the mixture of detective story where you are solving various puzzles, putting together clues from one room to another to solve generally pretty basic puzzle, but some of them require a little bit of thought, enough that it remains interesting combined with the, albeit pretty basic, work simulator style mechanics is an interesting combination.

Tom: The fact that if you don't bother to do your work in the hotel, it affects what the ending is.

Tom: So that's also an interesting use of it in that sense as well.

Tom: And there are a lot of different endings based on a huge number of different ways you can choose to approach the puzzle solving in your work.

Tom: So it's interesting from that perspective as well.

Tom: And I think the story and characters are enough to combine with somewhat rudimentary gameplay mechanics to make it an enjoyable experience.

Tom: There's the story maybe a little on the nose in terms of some of the content given the setting, but the characters are interesting enough that it doesn't matter.

Tom: And the way they tell the story with you discovering various things about the guests in the hotel, despite not interacting with them, I thought was a pretty interesting and enjoyable narrative choice as well.

Phil: Is it one of these games where you have to balance doing the work of the job and then having enough time to do the snooping type thing?

Tom: I don't think there was really a time pressure at any point in the game, but it does require you to put in the extra effort yourself to actually be doing your work at the same time.

Phil: With Dave the Diver, I think where I'm falling down on it is I...

Phil: And this happened with...

Phil: There was an arcade simulator game where you are working in a laundromat, and you have a few arcade games as well that came out last year that I'll talk about another time, because I think it is a game worth discussion.

Phil: And that was...

Phil: Gosh, I can't remember the name of it.

Phil: You can't Google arcade game because it's just not going to come up.

Phil: But there was a game that came out in the last two years where you were working a laundromat, and you have to do the laundromat work, but then you have time to go and develop your arcade machines.

Phil: And the problem for me was, and I think this is the floor of the game, that you're supposed to give up on the work at some point and just focus on getting more video game arcade units into your laundromat and all this sort of thing.

Phil: And actually playing the games unlocks more games.

Phil: And they don't flag this at all.

Phil: Users just have to eventually get sick of doing the work, and then they'll discover, actually the laundromat thing isn't the most important thing.

Phil: Taking out the trash isn't the most important thing.

Phil: The most important thing is focusing on this arcade business.

Phil: And of course, for me, I'm like hours into the game, nothing's happening.

Phil: I'm just getting way better at taking out the trash and doing laundry because my mind is like, well, I can only play the game if I've done all the work.

Phil: And the developer tried to justify this and go, well, yeah, maybe we should have sort of at some point if someone's been playing it for hours and hasn't deviated from the path that we laid for them, maybe we could have said something or put up a thing that said, hey, maybe, you know, work isn't all you need in the life.

Phil: Maybe you need to play some games.

Phil: Which, yeah, which, you know, for me was a big drag on the game because I'm like, this is just at a certain point, this game is not progressing.

Phil: Anyway, it's funny.

Phil: I think it's funny.

Tom: Were you enjoying doing the work in the laundry, though?

Phil: Oh, yeah, immeasurably.

Phil: I feel you got to clean the gum off the chairs.

Phil: You got to, you know, you got to clean up the place.

Tom: Was it better than the arcade games?

Phil: Yeah, the arcade games are shite.

Phil: They were terrible.

Tom: So maybe this was how you should have been playing it.

Phil: Oh, it's how I picked the right way to play it.

Phil: And I guess maybe they were thinking, well, video game players will just be drawn to the video games.

Phil: But it's like, well, yeah, but good video games.

Phil: Like if they had a lot of parody type video games in it.

Phil: But you know, like if they had actual real Pac-Man, yeah, I could let the trash not be taken out for a while while I play Pac-Man, you know, like a good arcade game.

Phil: Anyway, I'm sorry, I've derailed us here.

Phil: The game we're talking about is This Bed We've Made, available on PC.

Phil: I don't know if it's available in any other format.

Phil: And have you, you have finished it?

Phil: Oh, the reason we can't hear Tom is because he's gone to get the die of destiny.

Phil: It's not just a sound effect, it's a real die imbued with powers to value a game.

Tom: It is the final word on the value of a game, I believe.

Phil: Which wrist are you using, left or right?

Phil: Right.

Phil: Oh, here we go.

Phil: Crank it.

Tom: One out of ten.

Phil: Wow, you know, that's the same score you gave The Beginner's Guide when we reviewed it in episode

Tom: I wouldn't say this is as bad as The Beginner's Guide.

Phil: Not as bad?

Tom: No.

Tom: If you have to choose between the two worst rated games of The Game Under Podcast, I would recommend This Bed We Made over The Beginner's Guide.

Phil: Okay, very well.

Phil: So at the overpriced price of $

Tom: Actually, no, no.

Tom: Sorry.

Tom: I was thinking of the Stanley Parallel.

Phil: Oh, Stanley Parallel.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: You gave The Beginner's Guide a one out of ten.

Tom: In that case, you could play either of them.

Tom: I would recommend of the worst games ever on The Game Under Podcast, play either of them.

Phil: Excellent.

Phil: Now, a game I've been playing, as I told you, a new PC.

Phil: I log on to Steam.

Phil: I see all these games in my library that I don't remember buying.

Phil: And one of them was Aperture Desk Job.

Phil: Now, I didn't buy Aperture Desk Job.

Phil: It's a game that Valve gives away for free.

Phil: And it was released in

Phil: Have you played this?

Tom: No, I haven't.

Tom: I had not even heard of it previously.

Phil: OK, so it's a spin-off of the Portal series, Aperture Labs and all that sort of thing.

Phil: And it was released concurrently with the Steam Deck.

Phil: It's basically a tech demo showcasing the platform's controller functions.

Phil: So this is the pack-in game for the Steam Deck, which I do hope to get one day.

Phil: And so it's a pretty short game.

Phil: I think it took me about maybe minutes to play.

Phil: And it is supposed to be showing you how to use the Steam Deck in terms of the various controls.

Phil: But you don't need a Steam Deck to play it.

Phil: You can play it on your PC or with a gaming controller.

Phil: You will need a mouse and keyboard at some point in the game, so have those at the ready.

Phil: You play from a first-person perspective and in typical portal sense of humor, you're put into a job by a robot to do some meaningless tasks.

Phil: And it's kind of fun because it's basically like a QTE.

Phil: They give you a task to do.

Phil: Something comes along in front of you on a conveyor belt.

Phil: You've got to do certain assembly type things, and it moves on.

Phil: Then you've got to do it again, and then you do it again.

Phil: So the first time you're like, oh, okay, yep, I get it.

Phil: Then the second one comes along, you're like, yeah, okay, yeah, this is, yep, yep, I get it.

Phil: Then the third one comes along, you're like, okay, yep, yep.

Phil: And then by the seventh one, you're like, how long are they, this is starting, like, this is like a job now.

Phil: You know, and I'm like, this is funny.

Phil: This is funny that they've let this go on for so long.

Phil: And it really shows a wry wit and ability of Valve to, you know, pulls off, pull off something like that.

Phil: And then just when you think, okay, like, seriously, this is just ridiculous, something happens.

Phil: And then from there, your whole experience starts to, you know, in a very comedic fashion, devolve or devolve perhaps.

Phil: It looks fantastic.

Phil: And I would thoroughly recommend it to anyone because it is only minutes.

Phil: And to me, it was more of a forensic study.

Phil: The audio was top notch.

Phil: The graphics were perfect for what they were trying to accomplish.

Phil: The writing was good and engaging and involving, and they used gameplay to propel the story.

Phil: It wasn't just all, you know, spoken narrative.

Phil: And yeah, it was really good and really well done.

Phil: I thoroughly recommend you try it.

Phil: It's compatible with Linux and Windows using the Source engine.

Phil: Of note, it was interesting because on every Valve game, they list everyone who works at the company, including the receptionist and, you know, the cleaners and all the rest of it.

Phil: So, and then they're in alphabetical order with no distinction as to what their jobs are, right?

Phil: So if you can imagine this credit roll with three names across, you know, going, starting with Aaron.

Phil: So the first thing I was like, there's a lot of people working at Valve named Aaron.

Phil: And then I was like, oh, okay, this is alphabetical.

Phil: Got it, okay.

Phil: And then, yeah, so I was able to calculate that there's between and people working at Valve, which is of interest, given, you know, what they do or don't do.

Phil: And then in the credit roll under the voice acting for a character named Charlie, I see Phil Fogg.

Phil: I'm like, what?

Phil: I gotta get a screenshot of this, this is fantastic.

Phil: Some dude out there is called Phil Fogg, and he was the voice of Charlie.

Phil: Well, okay, that's, you know, and then the next morning I'm thinking, oh yeah, I gotta go tell Tom about this.

Phil: You know, this is funny.

Phil: You know, like Phil Fogg, you know, hey, I got a credit.

Phil: I can, I could probably pretend that I did the voice acting for Charlie in this game.

Phil: And then about half a day later, I realize at some point in the game, they make you fill out a form with your name.

Phil: And so I put, obviously I put in Phil Fogg.

Phil: Charlie is the name of a character that never speaks.

Phil: And I just thought that was funny because it is deep in the credit roll.

Phil: And the only people they do credit are the voice actors, in terms of what they did in the game.

Phil: So that's probably a spoiler, but I thought that was an interesting touch and also an insight into my lack of intelligence.

Phil: I was like, well, yeah, I went on the internet.

Phil: I'm like, well, who's this Phil Fogg voice actor?

Phil: So I put Phil Fogg in the internet.

Phil: I'm like, there are a lot of Phil Fogg's.

Phil: I didn't think my name was so common.

Phil: You know, like I know, you know, Phileas P Fogg ran the world in days and all that sort of thing.

Phil: But I, you know, like, you know, anyway.

Phil: So yeah, well worth playing.

Phil: Thoroughly recommend it.

Phil: If it had gone on any longer, you know, I don't know that I would, but yeah, it was a nice, neat little package.

Phil: Well told, well presented and gives me hope for what Valve's capable of as a video game developer.

Tom: I think it sounds excellent.

Tom: I'll definitely have to play it.

Phil: Yeah, give it a try.

Phil: I mean, just as a forensic experience as to what Valve is capable of, it's certainly worth the minutes of time and a pretty small download as well, I think.

Tom: Are you gonna give it a score?

Phil: If I were to give it a score, it would be a cop out, like eight out of type thing.

Phil: I would, in reality, I would give it as a game, like if this was a game that I had to pay for, I'd give it a five out of

Phil: But as an experience that's free, and as I said, an insight into Valve, it's worth playing, certainly.

Phil: It's worth your investment of time.

Phil: It's certainly, yeah, nothing more than a five.

Tom: So what's the next, Phil?

Phil: Ah, well, thank you for asking.

Phil: I've got Phil's questions for you from other people's podcasts.

Phil: We've only got one this week, but it's a good one.

Phil: Jay writes, no location disclosed, whatever happened to car combat games?

Phil: Why did they stop being made?

Phil: For that matter, what is the state of driving games today?

Phil: So three questions there.

Phil: Now, just while you're gathering your thoughts, whatever happened to car combat games?

Phil: So car combat games, you know, I think of Twisted Metal on the PlayStation, Vigilante on the PlayStation and NDestruction Derby, Rush had a combat section, which was fantastic.

Phil: And then probably the newest entry would be Full Auto, which I think was a Xbox launch game.

Phil: So I played all of those and they were all fantastic.

Phil: Well, they weren't all fantastic.

Phil: They were all good experiences for their time.

Phil: So whatever happened to them, why did they stop being made?

Phil: And then a bigger question, what is the state of driving games today?

Tom: I think the reason they stop being made is, I think the increase in expectations of driving mechanics.

Tom: That's my theory.

Tom: So they were popular when there were many more arcade racing games around that were not retro-themed.

Tom: When games started, when gamers started to have expectations that everything would have some sort of more quote, realistic, end quote, physics engines in them, is when they sort of started dying off a little bit.

Phil: But in terms of arcade games, we would probably say that the Burnout series and the need for speed games that Criterion developed on the PlayStation were probably the last hurrah for arcade games that are being sold on mass market level.

Phil: So forever there's been simulation games, races, and there's been arcade races.

Phil: I like both.

Phil: I think I'd probably like them all pick up and play arcade style.

Tom: But I think the arcade ones today, like Need for Speed and Burnout, they exist on the basis that they are recreating a sort of game that previously existed.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: But I think probably the closest we've got to an arcade quote racer these days would, I mean, does Rocket League even count?

Phil: Not really, it's, I mean-

Tom: I think that's closer to being a car combat game.

Phil: Exactly.

Phil: Than a racing game.

Phil: Yeah, cause you're in an arena.

Phil: I think the problem with games like Twisted Metal and Vigilante which is where Doom with Cars, you know, I think the first review I wrote, cause I was not aware of Twisted Metal when I played Vigilante

Phil: And I wrote a review, it was like, this is like Doom with Cars, it's amazing.

Phil: Not knowing that it was a fairly cheap rip off, of Twisted Metal, the problem with those games is that they were set in an arena and you can't actually see people shooting at you.

Phil: Like you'd be just driving along trying to shoot and you can only directly in front of you with a limited scope of vision, which is pretty frustrating.

Phil: It's a novel experience, if you hadn't been exposed to it before, but as an ultimate experience today, you know, fighting in an arena is just annoying because you're getting-

Tom: I don't think that they weren't all arena games though.

Tom: There's also In the State for example.

Phil: Which is the people that made Vigilante

Tom: Yep, and Carmageddon as well.

Tom: I think that would probably qualify.

Phil: Yeah, Rush was an arena game, but expertly pulled off.

Tom: And there was also an isometric, two excellent isometric arcade racing games, the titles of which both allude me currently, that also featured combat in them.

Tom: They were isometric racing games that took place on racing tracks in various settings that also featured combat as well.

Phil: If there were a place for car combat games today, I think full auto on the is where it would be because, and some people say, well, Mario Kart is a car combat game.

Phil: And yeah, I mean, if we want to make this, for people who haven't played full auto, if you think of Mario Kart, well, that kind of works because you don't have people coming at you from the side, you got people from behind and you got people in front of you.

Phil: And that does work quite well, I think, and worked well in full auto as well.

Phil: I just think the only part where car combat games wouldn't work today is that open arena, if it's not in an isometric view or a third person view, I think that's where the difficulty arrives.

Tom: But then what about Grand Theft Auto, does that qualify as a car combat game?

Phil: Well, terrible ones, right?

Phil: Yeah, what would it qualify?

Phil: It has combat in a car, but I think for a car combat game, you've got to have weapons that are mounted on the car, not just be shooting from the vehicle.

Phil: And in Grand Theft Auto, to my knowledge, there was never a weapon mounted on the vehicle itself.

Tom: I think there are vehicles that do have weapons on them.

Tom: For instance, there's a tank in San Andreas.

Phil: Oh, a tank, yeah, the tank.

Phil: But, you know, and then I go, well, how is this different from a multiplayer shooter where you're getting people attacking you from either side?

Phil: And I think it's the turning point, right?

Phil: Like, you know, if you're a human getting shot at from the left, you can immediately turn to the left and you have peripheral vision.

Phil: I think with a car, what's frustrating is you're getting shot from the left and you have to turn, you know, you got to turn all the way around.

Phil: And by the time you turn around, they're gone.

Phil: And I think that's very similar to like flight sims, you know, because if you've ever played flight sims, it's not about turning around to shoot the guy who's behind you.

Phil: You've got to go down, you've got to go up, you've got to come up with some of the strategy.

Phil: I think probably car combat games, you know, are a feature, not an app.

Phil: I think if you were going to incorporate car combat into a driving game today, you know, it would be a mode, which was pulled off excellently in Rush

Phil: But I can't think that you can make a whole game around it anymore.

Tom: I think part of that is expectations in driving physics.

Tom: Because if you have to make a game that has relatively complex driving physics, unless it's a nostalgic arcade game, you're essentially having to juggle two different types of games at once.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: It's the same issue with flight sims.

Tom: These days, where did the serious flight sims with combat in them go?

Tom: They're no longer being made.

Tom: There's flight sim, flight simulator, which has no combat, and then there are arcade combat flight sims.

Phil: They're sort of cartoony third-person ones, which I love, absolutely.

Phil: And flight sim, I'd like to lie and say that I love it, but I actually haven't been able to download it because it's ridiculous.

Phil: And I'm the kind of guy who goes, oh, I really like flight sim games, but when I actually do play them, I've never played them in high fidelity because I haven't played the most recent one.

Phil: But yeah, I think the flight combat games now, there's a ton of them on Steam and elsewhere that are arcade-y and a lot of fun.

Tom: But there aren't ones like IL-Stermivic still being made, which was a proper flight sim with combat in it.

Tom: And I would expect rather than like with racing games, where I think the expectations of mechanics gets in the way, I think they're the expectations of visual fidelity getting away there.

Phil: I guess the closest thing we'd have to that is Ace Combat, which hasn't seen a new release for some time now.

Tom: And is an arcade.

Phil: Yeah, it's arcade.

Phil: Yeah, exactly.

Phil: It's the closest to, but not what you're talking about.

Phil: What was the name of the game that you just mentioned?

Phil: Just so our listeners, if they want to look into it.

Tom: I think it's called IL-Stermivic, named after a type of plane.

Phil: Okay, IL-like clean up on IL-?

Tom: Yes, no, IL, the letters.

Phil: IL?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: You sure it's not just Roman numeral ?

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: Then it'd be Tutu.

Phil: You may get this story straight, man.

Phil: Or is it, it's not I-S-L-E, like an island?

Tom: No, maybe it is Tutu, actually.

Phil: Tutu, like Desmond Tutu, or something you'd wear in ballet.

Phil: Well, listeners, let us know.

Tom: It could be Tutu or double I, actually.

Phil: So before we close out, the next part of the...

Tom: No, the game is indeed, is indeed I-L-

Tom: Yep, L-

Tom: Dermavik.

Phil: Dermavik, okay.

Phil: Never heard of it.

Phil: I am excited to look into this.

Tom: I presume the I-L is short for Ilyushin, which is the name of the plane, which is, if that is true, it's called, it's called...

Tom: It's not Tutu, but it is Ilyushin, Ilyushin-

Phil: Oh yeah, of course, Ilyushin, Ilyushin-

Phil: Yeah, that makes total sense.

Phil: Now, I've got to tell you, the reason why I bought a Commodore I was doing work experience in an electrical store and I was there for a week and I loved it.

Phil: I loved the retail experience, lying to people, getting them to buy stuff, supporting people as well, delivering things to ladies homes, helping them out in that regard as a teenager.

Phil: And on my last day, I'm like, I've been looking at this all week.

Phil: They've got a copy of Microprose's Gunship, which is a helicopter simulation of the Apache A, which is a combat attack helicopter.

Phil: I bought a computer.

Phil: I took all the money that I had at the time just so I could buy and play this flight sim, which is all I did for the next few years.

Phil: And really was the renaissance of my gaming experience.

Phil: So I'm down with realistic flight sims.

Phil: And Microprose did some great jobs back in the day.

Phil: The bigger question that Jay asks is, for that matter, what is the state of driving games today?

Tom: The state of them?

Phil: Yeah, what's the state of driving games?

Phil: They used to go and be able to buy like six or seven different games, and it'd be like four different arcade games, and like two different sims.

Phil: Now we've got Gran Turismo and Forza coming out like once every seven years.

Phil: Forza Horizon, I don't even remember.

Phil: I guess that's the closest we've got to arcade games.

Phil: Need for Speed has fumbled and flopped around with very few releases that are noteworthy.

Phil: They used to come out every year, and some were good and some were bad.

Phil: You had Burnout, you had the Rush series, you had all these games going on.

Phil: Today, driving games?

Phil: I mean, what's happened?

Tom: That reminds me, did we ever end up covering Need for Speed Unbound?

Tom: I don't think we did, did we?

Phil: No.

Tom: So maybe that will be in the next show.

Phil: Okay, I can tell you another great Need for Speed game as well.

Phil: So maybe we just do a Need for Speed special in the next episode.

Phil: We can talk about some of the games that we've liked in the franchise.

Phil: I would say since you haven't answered, I think the state of driving games today, I think if you go on to your Switch and play games like Asphalt, there's plenty of fun driving games around.

Phil: Yeah, a lot of them are full of microtransactions and things of that nature.

Phil: As we said, we've got Rocket League, which is ostensibly probably more of a soccer game than it is a driving game that's highly successful.

Phil: But there is a gap, I feel.

Phil: You've got driving games that are simulators like Euro Truck Simulator and American Truck Simulator, but that's not really what we're talking about when I think about driving games.

Phil: And then what happened to Dirt and Colin McRae and all that?

Tom: The most recent Colin McRae slash Dirt game, I think came out really recently.

Tom: It came out last year.

Tom: It's been rebranded as WRC, or rather EA Sports Trademark WRC.

Tom: So the last one of those came out last year and was predictably, I think, well received by critics and despised by fans.

Phil: By enthusiasts.

Phil: The enthusiasts are never happy.

Tom: But I think it's worth looking at some of these reviews on Steam for it.

Tom: For example, here's not recommended review.

Tom: How long do you think the person playing it who doesn't recommend it had played it for?

Phil: minutes.

Tom: hours.

Phil: You loser.

Tom: Another negative review.

Tom: hours.

Tom: A positive review.

Tom: hours.

Phil: Oh, well, at least they spent the time.

Phil: But, you know, if they spent another...

Tom: At least they were enjoying themselves for hours.

Phil: Maybe if they'd spent another hours on it though, they'd get sick of it.

Tom: Maybe that was the problem.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Well, what's the old joke?

Phil: The food here is terrible and the portion sizes are so small.

Phil: You know?

Phil: No, that's...

Phil: Yeah, look, I think there's plenty of driving games available for people who want to play them.

Phil: I'm a massive fan of Sonic and Sega All-Star Racing on whatever platform you can get it.

Phil: I played on a PC.

Phil: My daughter loves it as well.

Phil: She says, this is so much better than Mario Kart.

Phil: I'm like, yeah.

Phil: So yeah, I still think there's still plenty of driving games.

Phil: It's just like with sports games.

Phil: There used to be seven different baseball games.

Phil: Now there's one.

Phil: There used to be seven different soccer games.

Phil: We got to ask, too, what is the state of Pro Evo and soccer video games?

Phil: We'll put a pin on that as well.

Tom: Horrendous, I believe.

Tom: FIFA hasn't changed what the game is for many, many years.

Tom: And I don't think Pez has either.

Tom: They've changed the title, but not the game.

Phil: Pez has fallen off massively.

Phil: But anyway, we'll talk about that next episode.

Phil: Thanks for listening to episode of the Game Under Podcast.

Phil: We've been doing this since so there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now at our website, gameunder.net.

Phil: If you'd like to submit a question, please use the comment section from our homepage, from the very front page.

Phil: You don't have to register and all the rest of it.

Phil: Just ask a question.

Phil: And thanks for listening to episode of the Game Under Podcast.

Tom: Before we do finish.

Tom: No, before we finish, I have to ask.

Phil: Phil Fogg, you can call me Phil.

Tom: Did you ever hear back from our tip cover?

Phil: No, I haven't touched base with them.

Phil: But before we close out, do you have any stories you want to tell me about fashion objects?

Tom: If you have time, we may as well cover it.

Phil: Well, this is almost a bonus.

Phil: You know what?

Phil: We will tease this and we'll talk about this in our returning trademark banter segment at the start of episode in a couple of weeks from now.

Phil: Thanks for listening.

Phil: I'm Phil SP.

Phil: Fogg.

Phil: You can call me Phil.

Tom: I'm Tom Towers.

Phil: You can call him Tom.