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0:00:09 Intro
0:00:51 Corrections
0:01:42 Tropical Diseases
0:07:06 News - Microsoft Backstories
0:15:43 Judging Phil Spencer
0:27:23 Pachterwatch
0:31:05 Nintendo Gets Physical - Media
0:35:58 Tom Plays Super Mario Odyssey
0:54:20 Phil Plays Dave the Diver
1:03:28 Questions for Tom from Other People’s Podcasts
Transctipt:
Tom: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast, which has finally returned to the format that no doubt everyone has missed. I am your host, Tom Towers, and I am joined by the man who could not stop recording in my absence, Phil Fogg.
Phil: Phil Fogg, that's right. I'm here also to correct you, because we're actually up to episode, episode of The Game Under Podcast.
Tom: That's an error in your notes, I believe.
Phil: Australia's longest-running video game podcast. I think that perhaps you just didn't listen to the last episode. It was quite forgettable because it featured myself and only myself.
Tom: I actually commented on the episode.
Phil: Really?
Tom: Yes, with a correction. You stated that Facebook was probably losing more monthly than Australia's GDP.
Phil: Yes.
Tom: But, depending on the year, if we went by Facebook would need to be about billion times worse than it was doing.
Phil: Oh, then Australia's doing much better than I thought.
Phil: I just judged by the potholes on our highways.
Tom: That's why we're doing so well.
Tom: If we were wasting money on fixing potholes, where do you think our GDP would be going?
Tom: We'd literally be pouring it into a hole in the ground.
Phil: So, it's good to have you back.
Tom: Thank you.
Tom: I'm glad to be here so far.
Phil: You sound a little bit under the weather, though.
Tom: Yes, well, I thought if I'm going to the tropics, I've got to try a tropical disease of some sort.
Tom: And I decided to give the tropical version of Influenza A a try.
Phil: Oh, that's a creative choice.
Phil: I would have gone straight with Malaria.
Tom: That would be the generic choice.
Tom: But I think like trying an overseas McDonald's or something, one of the best cultural comparisons, I think, is a universal disease in a different environment that you can try.
Phil: Okay, so you've got Hepatitis A?
Tom: No, just Influenza A.
Phil: Oh, Influenza A, okay.
Phil: Because that's good.
Phil: You can get over Influenza A, I'm sure.
Tom: Yes.
Phil: But, and you didn't get any food poisoning or anything like that?
Tom: No, I think it'd be more likely to get food poisoning in Australia.
Phil: All right, well, so have you gone to a local doctor though to make sure that it's okay?
Tom: Well, I haven't been by, to make sure it's okay.
Tom: It is the flu, so it should be okay.
Tom: Although I did spend, I think, two days and one night in which I consumed one bottle of Gatorade, one cup of water and one very small coconut water with a fever.
Tom: So that was probably not advisable.
Tom: But I think the real question on everyone lips is, how does it compare to coronavirus?
Tom: Because I believe you've also had the privilege of having both coronavirus and the flu.
Tom: And in your experience, I believe you rated the flu as an overall better experience in terms of-
Phil: Fever.
Tom: Fever, yeah.
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
Phil: The super flu I had after I'd had COVID, COVID I did not notice at all.
Phil: I honestly just tested positive for COVID and I didn't feel different at all.
Phil: But then about four weeks later, I got this influenza and yeah, I felt absolutely terrible.
Phil: Like I couldn't even game.
Phil: I couldn't read.
Phil: Watching television was a problem.
Phil: That's how weak and tired I felt.
Phil: So you're feeling the same sort of symptoms, weakness, tiredness, muscle fatigue, muscle pain, that sort of stuff.
Tom: Yeah, well, I spent during that three days of dehydration, I was in bed for the entirety of not just one day, but then half the next day as well, due to weakness.
Tom: And that was the period of the fever.
Tom: And I think the fever is what makes it a more enjoyable experience than coronavirus because it's not a genuinely severe fever.
Tom: I've had viruses, or at least one, that was a really severe fever.
Tom: This is a sort of mild fever, just at the level where it basically knocks out all of the pain and most of one sense of time and that sort of thing.
Tom: So you're just lying there gradually hoping you're going to improve, but not really caring either way.
Tom: So it's a sort of a relaxing experience actually.
Tom: I would advise people who are feeling burnt out from work maybe find a way to contract the flu and it'll be an excuse not to go to work, but also a great way to relax and reset while you're off work as well.
Phil: Fevers are a great ride.
Phil: The closest thing I could put it up to would be like a hot bath or being in a jacuzzi for a very long time.
Tom: It is a very similar experience to relaxing.
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
Phil: Well, glad to have you back.
Phil: At some point, we might talk more about your travels.
Phil: I'd be sort of interested to know from a gaming perspective, did you see any sort of video gaming at all?
Phil: Any sort of video gaming culture whatsoever?
Phil: And we should say you went to Sri Lanka and Singapore.
Phil: Correct.
Phil: And did you, just for context for this show, did you see any video game culture or experiences or anything like that whatsoever?
Tom: Well, mobile gaming was pretty prevalent in Singapore.
Tom: So I would say there, there is no doubt a widespread gaming culture.
Tom: In Sri Lanka, I don't think anyone has time to play video games.
Phil: Because they're always windsurfing and escaping spider monkeys?
Tom: No, because they're very busy becoming the next generation of the entirety of the world's engineers and doctors and lawyers and so on.
Phil: Yeah, well, that's a shame that they don't have time to waste on video games.
Tom: It is.
Phil: Yeah, anyway, hopefully some, you probably spread the word about this podcast and I'm sure we'll have a few conversions along the way.
Tom: No doubt.
Phil: With that, we'll go into news.
Phil: So we're gonna bash the Microsoft Pinata like every other podcast is, but we'll probably look at it in just a slightly different way.
Phil: And I've got to catch you up on some of this news because you possibly have missed the fact that Microsoft is closing the Arkane Austin Studio and Tango Gameworks and lesser Bethesda Studio called Alpha Dog and Roadhouse.
Tom: And what are they all responsible for?
Phil: Well, Arkane Austin made most recently Redfall, but they're also responsible for the Dishonored franchise.
Phil: Tango Gameworks was McCarmy's studio that Bethesda set up for him.
Phil: And they of course did Hi-Fi Rush more recently and a horror franchise that I can't recall the name of right now, but I only do this so that people can feel better than me and yell at the shadow of the, no, I can't remember it.
Tom: Shadow of the Colossus.
Tom: Shadow of the Damned.
Phil: No, that was a good one, no.
Phil: No, Evil Within, I think is what it's called.
Phil: And while you were gone, I talked about how Shinji McCarmy had left the studio, his own studio that was created for him and was basically like, yeah, I should have left years ago.
Phil: And I wasn't really in charge of anything.
Phil: I was just a worker.
Phil: I was just the executive in name only.
Phil: And at the time, it was a pretty juicy story.
Phil: It was like, wow, why is he talking like this?
Phil: Well, now I think it's apparent that he's covering his butt by basically going, oh, well, whatever this, why ever the studio failed, it had nothing to do with me because I was just a worker.
Phil: So all of the studios at Microwave closed were Bethesda Studios.
Phil: So this was all stuff that was purchased along with the purchase of basically, you know, the crown jewels in the Bethesda world, obviously, Fallout, Skyrim, sorry, Elder Scrolls, Doom, Quake, you know, these kinds of franchises.
Phil: Arkane Austin had some tremendous success, critically and commercially, with the Dishonored series.
Phil: Redfall was a failure, commercially and critically.
Phil: Hi-Fi Rush was a creative success, but commercially hard to measure because it's all a part of Game Pass these days.
Phil: And I'm not even aware of what Alpha Dog and Roundhouse did.
Phil: Honestly, this, to me, looks more like housekeeping.
Phil: And we don't really know all the facts behind it.
Phil: The fact that they were all under the Bethesda umbrella tells me that this was probably something they were putting off until the Activision purchase went through because it wouldn't look good in court to be defending your purchase of a major studio when the people who are against it can point to, well, look, this is what they did over here with Bethesda.
Phil: They bought it out and then they shut down four studios.
Phil: And basically, this is what a monopoly can do.
Phil: It's so powerful that it can afford to shut down these kinds of things.
Phil: It also would not have helped them in the court of public popularity.
Phil: So I just think this was probably a long overdue thing that Microsoft had to do in terms of cleaning up some of these things.
Phil: If Redfall was a success, there's absolutely no question that Arkane Austin would still be open.
Phil: If Mikami had not left Tango Gameworks, do they continue?
Phil: And you've also got to look at, I've been around companies before that are positioning themselves for sale.
Phil: They'll often buy things to make them look more appealing to a future buyer.
Phil: And so if Bethesda sold to Microsoft, it's not just because it happened to happen one day that Microsoft had more money than they needed and they looked around and went, oh, we'll buy Bethesda.
Phil: Bethesda was positioning themselves.
Phil: And I think that that's what the whole creation of Tango Gameworks was about, was expanding their portfolio so that'd be a more attractive purchase.
Phil: When you take the guy that the whole studio is there for, the creative impetus for that company, when you take him out of it or when he took himself out of it, you've got a question whether that completely devalued the company or the company's value to Microsoft because it's kind of like, well, that was McCarmy's thing.
Phil: And as long as it was ticking over a little bit of money, it gave us credibility to some extent to have such a legend of game development under our studio.
Phil: Does any of that make sense to you?
Tom: I think it makes sense.
Tom: I think without him, they lose a huge amount of marketing potential.
Phil: And then Redfall had tremendous development costs and it was them sort of going into a new direction, doing something that they hadn't done before and it failed.
Phil: So, you know, you don't know how many people left around that.
Phil: You don't know what other things were going on.
Phil: So, like I said, we just don't know.
Tom: I think the gossip is also that they didn't want to develop a game like that either.
Phil: Well, see, what I've heard is that they had wanted to do something, there was a portion of the company that wanted to do something different from the whole dishonored sort of franchise.
Phil: And they broke away and said basically, look, this is what we want to do, something completely different to show our creative trops.
Phil: They got into trouble and they were hoping, this is probably what you've heard, that Microsoft would come in and say, ah, well, it's not working out, we're made of money, go do something else.
Phil: But Microsoft went, no, you know, this game's almost finished, let's keep going.
Phil: So that's what I've heard.
Tom: I've heard is more so that it was Microsoft's idea.
Phil: I could be wrong.
Tom: Both stories are hearsay, so either is potentially true.
Phil: Yeah, well, both are true, you know, because, you know, I think Microsoft acquired Bethesda and, oh gosh, I'm gonna say at this point.
Tom: You also don't know what exactly, if it was in development before the acquisition, you don't know what the initial development idea was.
Tom: It could have been a totally different thing.
Tom: And Microsoft said, came in and said, we like this concept, but turn it into this other thing.
Phil: Yep, yep, I hear you.
Phil: Yeah, or they may have said, look, we've spent enough time and money on this.
Phil: And someone had a creative vision and Microsoft's like, you gotta wrap this up, guys.
Phil: You've got months, let's wrap it up, hey?
Phil: Yeah, so I don't, everyone else is pointing at this going, oh, you know, Microsoft is putting Xbox under pressure because they bought Activision and all these other things have happened.
Phil: I don't think that this is a reaction to anything that's happened recently.
Phil: I think it was just a series of events that played out the way that I suggested.
Phil: Now, the fun pinata part of the story is that former Blizzard boss, Mikey Barra, has claimed that Xbox head Phil Spencer will be hurting, quote, as much as anyone else following the closure of the first party studios.
Phil: I'm not trying to offend the decisions.
Phil: I think we all get ourselves into situations that are tough and unexpected.
Phil: It's part of the job.
Phil: That's my first hand, but he's a good human who cares deeply about the creative process and developers.
Tom: Very brave of him.
Tom: Very brave.
Phil: Oh, yes.
Phil: I see a lot of shots at Phil over today's cloud announcements.
Phil: I get it, but knowing him as a human, I know this hurts him as much as anyone else.
Phil: Except for the part where he's still getting paid millions of dollars a year.
Tom: And that's the job.
Tom: I hope he will survive this very challenging ordeal for him.
Phil: It is a challenge, which leads us into story number two while we're whacking the pinata.
Phil: It's time to stop giving Xbox boss Phil Spencer a pass.
Phil: It's time to acknowledge that Xbox boss Phil Spencer is making bad decisions.
Phil: Credit on that last story, by the way, goes to Eurogamer.
Phil: This story is from Kotaku.
Phil: And in part, it's basically saying that, Phil Spencer golly goshes his way out of all of the negative stuff and talks about how gaming is important and this and that and the community is important and we're all here to make great games and everything else.
Phil: But when you look at the direction that Microsoft is heading right now, and this is separate from the closures, he's been in charge of Xbox for years.
Phil: So, for the longest time, the excuse has been, oh, under Don Mattrick and Xbox One was terrible, but now Phil Spencer's in charge and Microsoft gets it.
Phil: But they're faltering in hardware sales.
Phil: I think they've got a third of the sales of the PlayStation
Phil: And they're struggling with game sales.
Phil: Game pass has basically been stagnant after peaking in
Phil: And so some of the bets that they've placed are not paying off.
Phil: And basically, this editorial piece was saying that, you know, he's got to start to be held accountable.
Tom: I think he has been there for a long time.
Tom: So I'm not really sure I understand the entire concept here, because who isn't holding him accountable in this scenario?
Tom: The press or the company themselves?
Phil: I think this was from Kotaku, Australia, and they were basically saying that the press has been giving him a free ride for a while.
Phil: And it's time to start asking critical questions about the direction that Microsoft is going.
Phil: I don't think it's on the part of the press necessarily, or fans or enthusiasts to be questioning this.
Phil: The only question to me that a consumer has to make is, am I going to buy this game?
Phil: Am I not going to buy this game?
Phil: I've heard good things about this game.
Phil: I'm going to buy this game.
Phil: Game Pass is a great value to me.
Phil: Buying a $Xbox is a great value to me.
Phil: I want to do it.
Phil: I think that's where the consumers have to basically, that's their only responsibility.
Phil: I think that people like your friend Michael Pachter have a responsibility to acknowledge that Phil Spencer's possibly making some bad decisions.
Phil: I haven't looked at everything closely, but if you look at it, like this is not a winning, they haven't been on a winning strategy for quite some time.
Phil: And he's been in charge for years.
Phil: So if I was giving you investment advice, I'd be saying, hey, look, enough of a free pass.
Phil: As for the role of the press, is it the job of the enthusiast press to give Phil Spencer a hard time or not?
Phil: I think in editorials, you get to do that.
Phil: But I would say that the press's role is fairly limited.
Tom: Well, this is the befuddling part of the thing for me.
Tom: Here is an article essentially would appear saying that the press is not holding Phil Spencer responsible for the direction of Microsoft's games division, correct?
Phil: Let's get the exact word right.
Phil: It's time to acknowledge that Xbox boss, Phil Spencer, is making bad decisions, which I think is the same as holding him accountable, right?
Tom: Now of course, this could just be the framing of the article.
Tom: I haven't read the article, so I don't know what the content of it is.
Tom: But I would hope then that the main content of the article would be focusing on the allegedly bad decisions of Phil Spencer as opposed to what the concept of the article appears to be based on what may merely be a clickbait title, which is, it's time to hold him accountable in terms of meaning.
Phil: It seems in reading the article, most of it has to do with the easiest thing for critics to do, which is hypocrisy.
Phil: Because he'll come out and say things like, when a team like Rare wants to do Sea of Thieves, when a team like Obsidian wants to do Grounded and Tango wants to do Hi-Fi Rush, when everyone probably thought they were doing The Evil Within I want to give their teams a creative platform to go and push their ability, push their aspirations.
Phil: So he said that a year ago, and now he's shut down that studio.
Phil: Like he's responsible for shutting down the studio.
Phil: And they're basically calling him out for things like that.
Phil: When Microsoft cut jobs, Spencer wrote an email to staff saying that the company had to make decisions that we felt set us up for the long term success of our products and business.
Phil: And that was in
Phil: Then in they went and cut another jobs at Activision and said, oh, we're committed to aligning on the strategy and execution plan with a sustainable cost structure that will support the whole of our growing business.
Phil: So, you know, like, I guess if you were to criticize them, it would be if you're going to make all these, do you have a strategy or not, because it seems to be like your strategy is you're making cuts after cuts after cuts and strategically, you should be able to look at the whole of your business and make those cuts at the same time, make those investments at the same time.
Phil: And he keeps talking about making the best plans for Xbox, but, you know, it hasn't come through.
Tom: So you agree with the statement of the article?
Phil: I think that shareholders and industry analysts should be asking questions about the leadership of the Xbox division and what Microsoft's goals are for the Xbox business, because now they've spent a significant amount of money on it, I'd want to know, well, where are you going?
Phil: Are you going to make another Xbox?
Phil: Are we doubling down on Game Pass?
Phil: Are you going to sell a hockey puck next time that streams it all from the internet?
Phil: Is Game Pass working?
Phil: It sounded like a great idea, but subscriptions have stagnated for three years.
Phil: Is making games and giving them away for free, or not giving away for free, but, you know, bundling them in a subscription better than selling them individually?
Phil: When you look at things like them, you know, starting to sell their games on other platforms, I think a shareholder or investor would have significantly good question to say, what is the overall strategy here?
Phil: Who is in charge?
Phil: And do we trust them to, you know, continue to steer the ship?
Phil: Yep, I think that's fair.
Phil: I don't think it's for me, people like me and you, or, you know, people who like playing the games to ask these kinds of things.
Phil: We shouldn't be really concerned with it.
Phil: But as long as we're reporting on video game news, you know, this was a point of interest.
Tom: I think within the realm of video game discussion, I think it's a fair thing to be part of the discourse.
Phil: Yeah, especially as closely as the industry is followed by the people that consume it.
Phil: And this is probably just piling on at this point.
Phil: But Xbox sales plummet, sales have decreased by % year on year.
Phil: In its latest earnings report, Microsoft's data gaming revenue had increased by billion or % year on year, while Xbox content and services revenue increased by %.
Phil: Microsoft said this is basically because they bought Activision.
Phil: So, their overall sales are up because they've bought the studio that makes Call of Duty and all the Blizzard games.
Tom: So, their strategy, we clearly can see what their strategy is.
Tom: Their strategy is buy Activision.
Phil: Yes.
Phil: Hardware revenue, however, has dropped by % year on year.
Phil: And this is on the back of last year, dropping %.
Phil: So, in the last two years, sales have dropped by % of the Xbox.
Tom: When did it start dropping?
Phil: It's year on year, they're reporting financially now.
Phil: So if you go to...
Phil: In the last months, it's dropped %, %.
Phil: And then in the months prior to that, you know, July, whatever, we were in May to May, June to June has dropped %.
Tom: What about the year before?
Phil: We don't know.
Phil: No talking about that.
Phil: No, not in this article.
Phil: More tellingly, there was no mention of Game Pass subscription numbers in the latest report.
Phil: So as you know, they stopped reporting hardware sales years ago because it was, you know, they weren't the market leader.
Phil: And they said, oh, well, hardware is not important.
Phil: What's important is consumer engagement and look at these fantastic subscription numbers so that they have been, you know, touting those or at least providing them.
Phil: But in the last report, they're not even talking about game pass subscription numbers.
Phil: Phil Spencer shared his concern about lack of growth in the industry, which was the key reason for the mass layoffs at the company earlier this year.
Phil: We're expanding our games to new platforms, bringing four of our fan favorites to Nintendo Switch and PlayStation.
Phil: Microsoft CEO Sachin Adela said, earlier this month, we had seven games among the top on the PlayStation Store.
Phil: So I don't know if you picked that up in the news, but basically, Microsoft had seven of the top games sold on PlayStation.
Phil: Sony had five on the top
Tom: So in some ways, maybe it isn't a bad strategy.
Phil: Well, if their strategy is to, and I believe that Sachin Adela has always been about getting Windows everywhere.
Phil: We don't care if you're using it on a Linux machine, on an Apple computer, whatever.
Phil: They just want, they're selling a service.
Phil: So they just want the software and as many hands as possible.
Phil: So obviously, it's been successful for them, these four A's.
Phil: But keep in mind too, a lot of those seven, I'm not sure a lot of them, but at least some of the seven that were in the top were also because of the Activision acquisition with games like Diablo and Call of Duty, obviously.
Tom: Now, you said it may not be within the purview of people such as us to be analyzing this sort of thing.
Tom: But I'm going to go a step further and in fact, advise Phil Spencer on what to do, because I see the sort of direction he's going in, but I think he's not taking it far enough.
Tom: What we're essentially seeing is...
Phil: Wait, wait, should we perhaps be asking Michael Pachter what he should be doing?
Tom: We could, we could, if you can get him on the telephone.
Phil: And let me just see if I can get him on Discord.
Phil: Yep.
Phil: Hello, Phil.
Phil: I'm sorry.
Phil: Hello, Michael.
Phil: This is Phil Fogg, Game Under Podcast, long time, no talk.
Tom: Hello, there!
Phil: Yes, yes, so you're still following the video game industry?
Tom: I am, but I've been staying in Ireland recently, so I may have picked up a little bit of an accent.
Phil: Yes, you did sound like a Canadian, but now you do sound a bit more Irish.
Phil: These things do happen.
Phil: From time to time, my accent changes a little bit as well.
Phil: Now I was wondering, I was talking with my host Tom Towers, who seems to have disappeared, and he thought that maybe you'd have some advice for Phil Spencer, and obviously you've been following the travails of Microsoft lately with their...
Tom: Well, the thing I've noticed is, what our good colleague Mr.
Tom: Spencer appears to be doing is he purchased Activision for a reasonably expensive, I thought at the time, deal, but I think it may have proved to be a good decision, because the extra money they spent that they've wasted, they've been slowly cutting from their expenses through the firing of various of their studios.
Tom: But my vision for Microsoft is that they take this a step further and they just gut everything else.
Tom: No new consoles, no other development studios, turn Microsoft gaming division and perhaps in the future, the entirety of Microsoft, but begin with the gaming studio into ZeniMax slash Bethesda slash Activision.
Tom: Just three other studios which have nothing to do with Microsoft, take them on board and essentially take over the entire Western gaming sphere.
Phil: Well, surely regulators would have an issue with them expanding beyond Activision.
Phil: They barely got by with getting the Activision purchase through.
Tom: I think when it comes to politics in America, where there is a will, there is a way.
Tom: I think the main issue they had was they didn't spend enough time lobbying.
Phil: Okay, I see.
Phil: Also, I wanted to ask you, Mr.
Phil: Packter, have you found your lucky charms?
Phil: I heard someone's been after them.
Tom: Well, that's why I have been here in Ireland.
Tom: And unfortunately, as you can tell from the accent, I've been here a very, very long time.
Tom: So that may answer your question, but my lawyer told me not to comment.
Phil: Okay, very good.
Phil: Thank you, Mr.
Phil: Packter.
Phil: It's been fantastic to have you back on Packter Watch.
Phil: I was wondering, maybe you could rejoin us later for a Killsaw and Yuckers a minute.
Tom: I'd love to.
Tom: It's been a pleasure to be here.
Phil: Thank you.
Phil: Thank you, Michael.
Phil: All right, he's gone.
Phil: Tom, did you hear that?
Phil: You might cut out.
Phil: Okay, you did hear his strategy.
Tom: Mine wasn't quite as ambitious as that.
Tom: It was just merely to continue cutting everything else out, essentially.
Tom: But that's why he's the industry analyst.
Phil: That's why he's the analyst.
Phil: He just goes above and beyond.
Phil: He's amazing, incredible.
Phil: Story number four.
Phil: In short, Nintendo has announced that the new console from Nintendo, which everyone's referring to as a Switch or the new Switch, which because they've basically described in an investor call that yeah, it's basically an iteration of the Switch.
Phil: Okay, fantastic.
Phil: Now, we know, but they have confirmed that it will have physical media, which is fantastic news for me.
Phil: I speculate and I wonder what you speculate as to if they're going to change the actual format, because we'd all love it to be backwards compatible.
Phil: And if it's a different format of cartridge, then obviously, you're increasing your cost by having two card readers.
Phil: Now this wouldn't be the first time they've done that.
Phil: Obviously, the DS had a initially had a GBA and a DS slot, so this is not unprecedented.
Phil: Perhaps solid-state media has gotten to the point where they can use the same size of cartridge, but get more space on there, because the machine is going to be more powerful, obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be doing it.
Phil: So there's going to be higher amount of data that needs to be stored on the cartridges.
Tom: Well, SD cards can get very, very big these days.
Tom: The issue is the expense of large SD cards that have a high data reading rate.
Phil: I'm sure the technology has evolved over the last seven or eight years anyway.
Phil: Because, yeah, I would love to see physical backwards compatibility.
Phil: Obviously, there's other ways of doing backward compatibility.
Phil: One that I would suggest is that if you have an existing switch, you could put your cartridge in it, register it some way with Nintendo to say that, yep, this user account owns this, and then when you go on to your new switch, you have the ability to download it and play it digitally.
Phil: If they really wanted to do something that's not Nintendo-like, they'd come up with a way for you to transfer your saves, but I think that's probably not realistic.
Phil: Yeah, so anyway, that's encouraging for me.
Phil: And I don't know, I think that's just Nintendo's way of doing things.
Phil: They are different.
Phil: And maybe they're looking at the reality of...
Phil: Forget about backward compatibility.
Phil: Let's just say it's not backward compatible at all.
Phil: It's just going to have a new hardware, a new cartridge or whatever.
Tom: So all they've announced is that it will be new hardware.
Phil: There will be new hardware and that they will be supporting physical media next time around.
Tom: Yeah, that's it.
Phil: For the foreseeable future was their exact quote.
Tom: And are they describing it as a totally new console as opposed to another iteration?
Phil: Yes.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: They said it will be switch like.
Tom: Switch like.
Phil: So basically, you know, similar sort of thing.
Phil: You'd be able to play it on your TV.
Phil: You'd be able to carry it around.
Phil: Yep.
Tom: So I would be expecting basically just another switch that is more powerful.
Phil: That's basically it.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Better screen, more memory, more storage rather, better processor.
Phil: I mean, that's what they're looking at.
Phil: They haven't gotten into any details, but there's been some pretty significantly credible rumors this last week because, you know, when you register an electronic device in other countries, you have to or export technology into countries because, you know, the government's worried about people, you know, importing weapons and all this sort of stuff.
Phil: You've got to say, hey, well, I'm going to be importing of these things.
Phil: This is the chips that are in it.
Phil: You know, this is what is inside of it.
Phil: And that comes from the US basically, you know, because they don't want to use shipping switches into Iraq and then Iraq dissembling them and making nuclear warheads out of some of the components, for example.
Phil: And this sort of silliness is carried on around the world now.
Tom: Or their own switches.
Phil: What's...
Phil: Oh, make their own switches.
Tom: That would be almost equally egregious in the eyes of the law.
Phil: So unless you've got any other comments on that, that ends out the news.
Tom: I think that's all I have to say on it.
Phil: Yep.
Phil: And I believe that you've been playing a game.
Phil: I'm not sure...
Phil: This is your first time through with this game, is it?
Tom: Yes it is.
Phil: Because it's been out for quite a while.
Phil: I forget what score I gave it, but I thought it was quite good.
Phil: And what is that game?
Tom: That's Super Mario Odyssey, Phil.
Phil: Super Mario Odyssey, Phil.
Phil: I'm not familiar with that game.
Phil: It's not very good.
Tom: I wouldn't recommend it.
Phil: Can you believe...
Phil: That is an older game that's been released.
Phil: I cannot believe this.
Phil: This was released in October of
Phil: That's crazy.
Tom: I can believe it.
Phil: You can believe it because you're playing it.
Phil: You probably think the graphics are crap.
Phil: I thought it looked quite good at the time.
Tom: I think it looks excellent.
Phil: So what compelled you to play this at this point?
Phil: Why have you waited this long?
Tom: One of my friends who posts on thevgpress.com, as I think Al Rojo...
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
Phil: He's in New Zealand, right?
Tom: Yes.
Tom: His birthday present for himself was that I had to buy Super Mario Odyssey for myself.
Tom: Apparently.
Tom: How he came up with that concept, I don't know.
Phil: I gave my impressions of this game, by the way, back in episode just to give you an idea as to how long ago that was.
Tom: And you don't have the score.
Phil: No, I don't have the score.
Phil: Sorry.
Phil: I thought quite well of the game.
Phil: I thought it was a well-done game.
Phil: I'd probably give it a boring eight.
Phil: You know, it was very well-polished.
Phil: I enjoyed the, well, you talk about the game and then we can, I'll tell you what I enjoyed in the night.
Tom: So Phil Fogg's official line on Super Mario Odyssey is that it's a very well-made game.
Phil: Yeah, a very well-made game, a boring eight.
Tom: I couldn't agree with you more.
Tom: It is a very well-made game.
Tom: I think with that sort of cutting analysis, we don't even need to go any deeper, do we?
Tom: We may as well move on to Day of the Diver.
Phil: Yes, I've been playing Day of the Diver.
Phil: So I've been playing this also once.
Phil: No, go ahead.
Phil: You're not getting off on this one.
Phil: So do you know anything about the people that make these games anymore?
Tom: I think the Japanese, they work for Nintendo.
Phil: Yeah, Japanese or maybe from China or something.
Phil: The Japanese director is...
Phil: No, definitely not.
Phil: Kenta Motokura is the director.
Phil: Producer is Yoshiaki Koizumi.
Phil: And he's been around for a very long time.
Phil: His notable work is The Legend of Zelda and Super Mario.
Phil: So, you know, that's pretty good.
Phil: But yeah, most of these other people, I don't know.
Phil: Of course, the music was done by Koji Kondo, legendary Koji Kondo, but some other people got some credits as well.
Phil: So, and I didn't even know, this game has a multiplayer aspect.
Phil: I guess it does, yeah.
Phil: Couch co-op type thing.
Phil: Is this launch worthy?
Phil: Is this up there with all the other Mario launch games?
Tom: Well, it's definitely not up there with Super Mario Galaxy so far, partly because it is very much riffing on Super Mario Galaxy.
Tom: It has a very similar feel in terms of the mechanics and also it feels in terms of the level design so far, also very much like Super Mario Galaxy Lite.
Tom: Not structurally, because the levels so far, the way they're sort of arranged, they're in the sort of more open world areas where you then, that will have a sort of theme, like there'll be an open world desert, which you walk around and within this open world, there will be sort of miniature levels, which you will then play through.
Tom: From my memory, the Super Mario Galaxy levels felt a little bit bigger and more expansive and also a little bit more complicated.
Tom: But this structure is fun in its own way, if not as challenging.
Tom: Not that there was anything difficult about Super Mario Galaxy in the first place, but it does feel like a sort of slightly dumbed down version of Super Mario Galaxy in a sense.
Phil: Well, it might be more accessible version, I guess.
Phil: But even though, as you said, Super Mario Galaxy was not an extremely challenging game.
Phil: It did have some puzzles and it did have some platforming elements that were slightly difficult.
Phil: But for the most part, it was a fun game with some challenge.
Tom: Super Mario Galaxy is, I think, one of the best games ever made.
Phil: Oh, for sure.
Phil: Yeah, where do you come down on Super Mario Galaxy is better than the original?
Tom: I'm yet to play
Phil: Oh, really?
Tom: Yes.
Phil: Okay, because I was talking to Devator about this the other day.
Phil: And he, I was saying, oh, well, obviously, like, where do you go with the sequel, you know, sort of thing?
Phil: Because do you put more value in the first game because it broke new ground and it created the thing?
Phil: Or do you give value to the second game that basically improved on the first game?
Phil: Critically, how do you weight those two things?
Tom: It depends on the particular instance, I would say.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: For me, I thought Super Mario Galaxy was a better game in every way.
Phil: But obviously, being a sequel, it sort of, you know, if Super Mario Galaxy had come out and then Super Mario Galaxy had come out, one would be a flop.
Phil: And that's just the way that it works.
Phil: Now, something that is familiar is, obviously, Super Mario Odyssey starts with planetoids, just like the Galaxy games, where you're learning the game, and that's the tutorial component of it.
Phil: It's like, wow, this could not be more like Super Mario Galaxy, which kind of gives false hope to veteran players.
Phil: But this does have a new twist, and that is, of course, the hat.
Phil: With the hat, to me, I'd like to hear your thoughts before I express my thoughts on it.
Tom: Well, the hat, I think, is why the levels are a little bit simplified compared to Super Mario Galaxy.
Tom: As I said, Super Mario Galaxy is not that it's more challenging than Super Mario Odyssey, but it managed to be very complex in what it required you to do, even if what it required you to do was easy.
Tom: I think the hat, because it totally alters your abilities, it necessitates so far, and this could change in the future, a much simpler sort of level design.
Phil: Wrote down the exact same things.
Phil: It's not that it's easier, it's just simplified.
Phil: And it's simplified because the complexity has to be turned down because of the gimmick of the hat.
Phil: You can't be throwing the hat on everything, even though you can throw the hat on pretty much everything, but they have to make the world of possibilities smaller because of that added feature.
Phil: Having said that though, I mean, maybe the worlds of Odyssey were less complex because, you know, there was basically a single path you could follow.
Tom: Do you mean Galaxy or Odyssey?
Phil: Galaxy rather.
Tom: I think if the path is complex, that wouldn't make it simpler.
Phil: That would make it simpler?
Tom: Wouldn't.
Phil: Wouldn't make it simpler, right.
Tom: But it is.
Tom: I think that's a broader philosophical question.
Phil: Yes, it is.
Phil: The hat is sentient.
Tom: It is.
Tom: So it talks to you as you're playing the game and interacts with other characters in the game.
Tom: I think despite it being so much simpler, if we're forgetting that riffs on Super Mario Galaxy so much, I wouldn't be disappointed in it.
Tom: I'm not disappointed.
Tom: I think it is a very creative take on D Mario because structurally so far, and I'm not that far into the game, so maybe my opinion will change later on.
Tom: Structurally, it's just a very effortless and enjoyable experience where one minute you're playing through D Mario, another you're in traditional D Mario.
Tom: The next moment, you're controlling a bullet bill and going through these flight-based levels where you're avoiding obstacles and trying to fit through small gaps and things like that.
Tom: So minute by minute, it's always simple, but it's always changing what you're doing.
Tom: So it uses its simplicity very well.
Tom: And the other thing is aesthetically, it's one of the more creative Marios out there.
Tom: It's a mix of different and sometimes random aesthetics.
Tom: You've got the real world bleeding into it.
Tom: You've got the sort of puppet, pantomime villains who are flying around an airship early on, which are quite different to the way a lot of Mario characters look.
Tom: And I think there's a stronger sense of humor as well in the way the whole kidnapping is presented too.
Phil: Yeah, definitely.
Phil: And I think you would not have gotten to New Donk City yet, perhaps, where Mario is working around in a real live city.
Phil: But also we should mention that this game won several awards and has sold almost million copies, making it one of the best selling Switch games, which is what you'd expect for a Mario platformer, certainly a D Mario platformer.
Phil: You'd be happy to know that as the game progresses, the things that you can transform into continue to change and make the game new again and again and continue to engage the player.
Phil: You said it's an entirely joyable experience.
Phil: I found it to be not so friction free that it was boring.
Phil: And in short, I just found it to be fun.
Phil: And it was kind of like, oh, now this is happening.
Phil: And as I said last week when I was talking, or maybe the week before about Princess Peach Showtime, this is something that Nintendo has done in three of its games, this console.
Phil: And that was the first one was already Mario Odyssey.
Phil: You throw your hat on something, you turn into him.
Phil: Then there was the Kirby game, which was brilliant and inventive and just fun.
Phil: And I'd suggest that you play that game as well.
Phil: And then you've got Princess Peach, the most recent one, Princess Peach Showtime, where she's going into different stages on every level.
Phil: And so she's transformed into these characters that she's playing on stage.
Phil: So it's a theme that Nintendo has followed three times this console generation.
Phil: And as with the Princess Peach game, it just keeps going and going and going.
Phil: I thought it was supposed to be a short game.
Phil: I did finally finish it, but I was thrilled to see them innovating all the way through to the end, which is an absolute delight, especially in the Kirby game, because you find yourself doing stuff at the end of the Kirby game, where you're like, I thought this was over with, and then they've introduced a whole new thing, which is completely different from everything else they've done leading up to that point.
Phil: So, yeah, so I guess, you know, if you weren't aware of that, this is a continuing theme for Nintendo, this console generation.
Tom: Excellent, that's good to hear.
Phil: So how did you, how do you, I mean, did you have anything really more to say about it?
Phil: How far have you gotten into it?
Phil: How did you like the tutorial?
Phil: Because I've got to say, my daughter started playing this game last week as well.
Phil: While she was traveling.
Phil: And as a six year old, she's playing on normal difficulty.
Phil: She's finding it good.
Phil: She's enjoying it.
Phil: Not having too much trouble with it, but probably more trouble than say me or you would be having.
Phil: And I guess the difficulty there is that she, a lot of it is not voice acted.
Phil: So she's constantly having to pass me the thing, saying what are they saying?
Phil: Though on the other hand, she does try to read it.
Phil: And so like as a parent, I really actually like the fact that it's not voice acted because she's having to read the words, which is fantastic in terms of her development.
Phil: So the D elements, what were your thoughts on those when they were introduced?
Tom: So far, they've been pretty simple, but enjoyable.
Phil: Yeah, they don't really get any more complex as you go on.
Tom: But as with the other elements, they fit in well with the pacing and structure.
Tom: They're giving you something different to do.
Tom: I think on the tutorial, it's not so much the tutorial, but an element of the tutorial, of the game teaching you things, I have noticed it is constantly telling you how to do things with motion controls, which are not possible to do while you are playing it as a portable.
Tom: And it does not tell you how to perform these actions without the motion.
Phil: I've heard someone else comment on that recently as well, that it's pretty poor effort on Nintendo's part to have a million selling game and not do the work of going back to update it and go, what hardware am I being played on?
Phil: I did not engage any of the motion controls playing on a launch switch.
Tom: I think it's a pretty big oversight.
Phil: Yeah, yeah.
Phil: It's not good.
Phil: It's not good at all.
Phil: And again, these are simple, you know, for me on the outside, at least I have a technical background.
Phil: These are not hard problems to solve.
Phil: They know what console you're playing it on and which set of instructions.
Phil: I think it's certainly unforgivable for a game that's drawn in that much revenue that they couldn't have done that, particularly when you look at the target market.
Phil: Now, there's old people like us that play these Nintendo games that are intended for kids because they are fun to play and it's a part of our cultural heritage.
Phil: But for a product that's, you know, directed mostly towards kids, I think that that's going to be really confusing for a lot of people, you know, and frustrating.
Phil: And they'll think that they've got the wrong, you know, hardware.
Phil: Yeah, it's not a good thing.
Phil: Not at all.
Tom: It may be because I'm not as old as you, but I found it frustrating, let alone a child.
Phil: Oh really?
Tom: Yep.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: Okay.
Phil: Well, I haven't, I don't have the new switch.
Phil: So yeah, I didn't have those issues at all, obviously, and I was playing it years ago.
Tom: The only thing I would add to my first impressions is the most enjoyable part of it, or rather one of the other most enjoyable parts of it, is the music, because the creativity extends to the music.
Tom: It's not really within the songs trying to fit, sorry, within the areas, trying to fit a consistent sort of theme where it's all orchestral music or something like that.
Tom: It goes through, from what I can recall of Super Mario Galaxy or other Mario games, a wider range of different musical styles more often.
Phil: Yeah, this is what I found with Princess Peach as well.
Phil: Like each music, the music for each scene was bespoke and special.
Phil: It tied back sometimes with the grander themes.
Phil: And it was always impressive, always impressive in terms of its quality.
Phil: Yeah, I mean, Nintendo's music is just on a whole different level from a lot of studios.
Phil: Well, with that, I think if you don't mind, I'll talk about a game that I've been playing lately.
Phil: Okay, so this game I thought forever was called Day of the Diver, as I heard people talk about it on various podcasts.
Phil: And then I went to buy it and I couldn't find Day of the Diver because the game is actually Dave the Diver.
Phil: It's published by Mint Rocket, which I've never heard of, using the Unity engine.
Phil: But it doesn't really matter what engine they're using because this is a D pixel type game.
Phil: If you remember that detective game that we were playing, not Blood and Bullets, but that other one that was sort of a D sprite looking type of game, which was pixelated, that was a good game actually.
Phil: The...
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: And anyway, it's available...
Phil: No, no, it was like an adventure game and it was gritty.
Phil: I'll come back with it later, but it's released on everything.
Phil: You can get it on Mac, Windows, Switch, PlayStation and but not Xbox.
Phil: Sorry, it's not available for everything.
Phil: And it was released late last year.
Phil: Critical Reception, it basically got all nines out of tens.
Phil: And as I said, I just got sick of people talking about it.
Phil: And it was on sale on the Switch, I think, for less than...
Phil: Well, I think for about maybe between $and $
Phil: So I picked it up.
Phil: Have you heard about this game at all?
Phil: Only through you.
Phil: Other than by name.
Phil: Yeah, okay.
Phil: So basically, they've combined two very good games into one.
Phil: So the premise is that you are visiting an island and they have the need for a diver.
Phil: And so you are going to go scuba diving for this island for a dude that you met a few years ago.
Phil: He's calling in a favor.
Phil: So he's basically invited you to an island to relax.
Phil: But then when you get there, you find out that he has another job for you to do.
Phil: And so he sends you to go diving because he's recently bought a sushi restaurant and he needs raw materials, ingredients, we should say, for that restaurant.
Phil: So basically, the first half of the, not when I say the first half, there's two parts of the game that alternate.
Phil: So on a day, you wake up, you go out in the boat, and you will dive, again, keeping in mind this is all D, you'll dive and catch fish using a harpoon and then progressively more complicated and more lethal guns and tools.
Phil: These are all real fish that you're catching in terms of what they're stylized after.
Phil: They're not actual real fish.
Phil: And you can get other ingredients and all the rest of it.
Phil: After you've caught all of these things, you get back up to the shore and he's like, oh, hey, we're short on help.
Phil: I've got a chef for the sushi bar, but I need a waiter and a concierge basically.
Phil: So the other type of game it is is basically like a diner dash type game where guests come in, they give you their order, you've got to go take them from the kitchen out to the people.
Phil: So you get a pour green tea, and basically all the sushi dishes that you're delivering are based on the fish that you caught that day.
Phil: It increasingly becomes more of a management type game where so when you get back to the restaurant, you've got to organize your menu for that day.
Phil: As your chef gets more experience, he'll become more inspired, so the more ingredients you bring, the better sushi and more different varieties of sushi he can make.
Phil: So some of the things that might be more difficult to catch, like a shark, that will take a lot of your energy and ammo and you can potentially get killed by, when you bring that back, that's the one that everyone likes because it's a rare thing to eat and the chef loves it as well.
Phil: So he's really working at his best to make it work for the customers.
Phil: A story unfolds as you go.
Phil: So basically there's a mystery involving this place that you discover as you continue to dive.
Phil: The restaurant management thing becomes a full restaurant management thing where you're hiring people, you're setting menus, you're renovating, you're advertising, you're engaging in a social media application to get people in.
Phil: You have a phone, which on the other side of things, you're doing weapon customization, upgrading your weapons.
Phil: And there's a mini game basically like Pokemon.
Phil: Not like Pokemon, it's much simpler than that.
Phil: Basically the more fish, different kinds of fish you catch, you unlock collectible cards, and it goes on and on and on.
Phil: So the game has two very simple concepts, but they both evolve and continue to evolve.
Phil: I said that they took two very good games and made them one, and that's about it.
Phil: I think if you were to release the restaurant management game by itself, it would have no...
Phil: it would go past unnoted.
Phil: If you were to release this diving game, I can see how it would work as a mobile game because it's very zen for want of a better description.
Phil: It's very relaxing but still challenging because you're running out of oxygen the whole time.
Phil: When you're in the restaurant, you're constantly running out of time as well because the customers get sick of waiting for you.
Phil: So I'm going to say that this is not a chill game by any measure because on both ends of it, you're under certain time pressures and you're under performance pressures as well.
Phil: But it is an enjoyable experience nonetheless.
Phil: The combination of the two things together, both of them highly detailed, well realized, good art, good music, makes it a satisfying experience as a whole.
Tom: How did you come across it?
Phil: Mostly through podcasts.
Phil: People just keep talking about how they're playing Dave the Diver.
Phil: And then with my enjoyment of work simulators, I had played Overcooked, which was a restaurant simulator, which I found to be very enjoyable, but my partner stopped playing it with me because I was like my normal self.
Phil: I was barking orders and like, why would you drop that dish?
Phil: We need more lettuce over here.
Phil: Come on.
Phil: Table needs a hamburger now.
Phil: So no one would play with me anymore on that, but I enjoy those kinds of games.
Tom: Have you continued playing it by yourself?
Phil: I can't.
Phil: Playing it by yourself is really boring and dull.
Phil: It is.
Phil: And then the fishing component of it, no one will get this reference, but it remains me of a game called Fishing Derby for the Atari
Phil: It's very zen and peaceful, though as I said, you're under time pressure to not run out of oxygen and unlock these other mysteries and things that are happening as you go.
Phil: So there's a bit more complexity going on in the background in terms of story to keep your interest going.
Phil: For me, I just love getting back to the sushi restaurant every day.
Phil: Other people I've listened to said they don't like the sushi experience, they prefer the diving.
Phil: And they're two very different aspects.
Phil: The music is very different.
Phil: The environments are different.
Phil: The artwork is obviously the same.
Phil: And I think that in terms of the story, I'm in for some pretty big twists.
Phil: I'm playing this game way too slow.
Phil: I'm sort of just enjoying it as a mobile game.
Phil: I haven't been pushing the story forward.
Phil: I'm still in chapter one for crying out loud.
Phil: I've probably played it for, I'm going to say, five hours.
Phil: So yeah, I'm definitely playing it wrong, but I'm enjoying it.
Tom: So you're not ready to give it a score?
Phil: I'm not ready to give it a score, but I am ready to give it a recommendation.
Phil: If the kind of thing that I've described to you, if you've enjoyed restaurant simulator games in the past, or if you're enticed by the challenge of scuba diving and unlocking some mysteries, then go ahead and play it.
Phil: It's a smallish kind of game in terms of download, if that's important to you.
Phil: It's certainly something that you can pick up for a pretty good price.
Phil: They've been supporting it with some free DLC as well.
Phil: So yeah, definitely a recommendation to give it a try.
Phil: Finally, I think if we can just basically finish up with some questions from other people's podcasts for you.
Phil: I wasn't satisfied with the answers I heard, and I want to hear your answer.
Phil: So the first question we have comes from Jen in Sheffield.
Phil: And the question is, what is your personal preference for where to sit in a cinema?
Tom: I think it depends on the cinema, but always in the middle.
Phil: Always in the middle?
Phil: The middle middle?
Tom: The middle in terms of left to right.
Phil: Right, and then what about...
Tom: Whether you want to be towards the front or the back depends on the cinema in question.
Phil: Okay, let's say it's your ideal cinema.
Phil: And then describe that for us.
Tom: Well, probably the best cinema in Melbourne is The Astor, because they...
Tom: Well, the last time I checked, which was several years ago, so I have no idea if it's still the case, they still have film projectors and regularly show films on film.
Tom: And generally speaking, the best seating position there is in the middle of the front, because it's a multiple-level cinema.
Tom: So if you're on the middle level and you're right at the front, you've got no seats in front of you, and you are essentially aligned with the very center of the screen.
Phil: The answer to this is that you should be two-thirds back in the middle, which is basically what you're describing.
Tom: Yes.
Phil: If you sit at the front of the front, you're a psychopath.
Phil: If you go into a theater and there's only seats remaining in the front, I'm going to say seven rows, go back and get a refund or ask to see another movie, because otherwise you're a psychopath.
Tom: I've done that.
Tom: It was an enjoyable experience, but you do have to look all over the place.
Phil: Yeah.
Phil: I got a sore neck and a migraine headache in the one time that I, and I don't recommend it.
Phil: Thanks for listening to The Game Under Podcast.
Phil: We've been doing this since so there's a lot of resources covering games from that time to now on our website, gameunder.net.
Phil: If you'd like to submit a question or make a comment, do that from our homepage on the very front page.
Phil: Thank you again for listening to Episode of The Game Under Podcast.
Phil: I am Phil Fogg.
Tom: I'm Tom Towers and I just like to add, we may be doing a special travel-based episode for the next show because if any listeners want more in-depth game impressions from me, the likely only way they're going to get it is if they pay for me to fly somewhere so I have a chance to play the Nintendo Switch.
Tom: So we are going to be raising our Patreon levels and we're trying to work out if there's a way that we can have it automatically raise the amount it takes out of your account without you opting in, but we're not sure if that is legal as yet.
Phil: I think a minimum of USD per download, per episode.
Tom: Maybe not that much because if I'm in first class, maybe I won't need to play games.
Tom: We're not greedy.
Tom: All we require is business class.
Phil: There's one thing you can say about The Game Under Podcast.
Phil: I'm Phil Fogg.
Tom: I've already said I'm Tom Towers.
Phil: Well, yeah, but you got to remind people.
Phil: That was like a minute ago.
Tom: Okay, I'm Tom Towers.