Game Under Podcast 174

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0:00:12 Intro

0:00:40 News - Mindseye Release

0:12:27 News - A New Xbox is an Xbox

0:15:52 News - Nintendo Apparently Hates Gays

0:21:39 Boomers Play Minecraft

0:42:45 Vampire Survivors

0:50:04 Spoilers Clair Obscur: Expedition 33

1:11:00 Best Console of PS3 S60 and Wii

Transcript:
Tom Towers: Hello and welcome to episode of The Game Under Podcast.

Tom: I'm your host, Tom Towers, and I'm joined, as ever, by Phil Fogg.

Phil Fogg: Hey, everyone.

Phil: It's episode

Phil: I can't believe we finally got to this seminal number.

Phil: It's incredible.

Phil:

Phil: Who records podcasts?

Tom: We would, apparently.

Phil: We would, apparently.

Phil: Okay, so we're coming in hot today.

Phil: We've got some news, and I don't know if you want to pick.

Phil: We've got Xbox.

Phil: Hey, we talked about Benz, but Leslie Benz.

Phil: He was one of the new stories.

Phil: Remember, Mindseye was coming out?

Tom: Yep.

Tom: I remember all two.

Phil: This was a guy that invented the perpetual motion machine and everything like that.

Phil: Okay, well, the game has finally launched.

Phil: There was some controversy before it launched because the CEO of the company was basically saying that there was a lot of negative press leading up to its release, and he was alluding to the fact that these people who had been criticizing the game's upcoming launch were being paid off in some way.

Tom: By Rockstar Games, I think he was saying.

Phil: That was the illusion, yeah.

Phil: He didn't say Rockstar, but that was the innuendo.

Phil: They did not release the game early to reviewers, and they did line up a whole bunch of influencers to stream it, which is not a good sign.

Phil: I mean, it can work.

Phil: There was a...

Phil: Oh, Doom, the original Doom ..

Phil: Not the original Doom.

Phil: The original Doom reboot in from Bethesda came out without going out to reviewers first.

Tom: Did it go out to influencers?

Phil: I don't know if they had influencers back in

Tom: I think they did.

Tom: They just called them something else.

Tom: Streamers, vloggers, OnlyFan models.

Phil: Vloggers.

Tom: Instagram thoughts.

Phil: Game has come out and it's received mostly negative.

Phil: Players and critics cited numerous issues including buggy performance, lackluster gameplay, clunky controls and the lifeless overworld.

Phil: It's getting about a score on OpenCritic and their peak concurrent users on launch day with users.

Tom: That's on Steam, right?

Phil: That's on Steam, yeah.

Phil: The game has had a rough launch.

Phil: Now just prior to its launch, a week before its launch, it's CFO quit, which is not a good sign.

Phil: And there was another senior executive that quit a week before the launch of the game as well.

Tom: What does CFO stand for?

Phil: Chief Financial Officer.

Tom: Important detail.

Phil: Yep.

Phil: The developer did respond by saying that they will have a patch, and basically said there was a memory leak that was causing all of the technical problems.

Phil: But even more recently, they've announced there's going to be layoffs.

Phil: Now, how many people do you think worked on this Grand Theft Auto client?

Tom: I would presume it must be hundreds.

Phil: Really?

Tom: For Mindseye, Yeah.

Tom: I would presume hundreds.

Phil: Hundreds.

Tom: It's either a fake AAA game or a high budget mid-tier game.

Tom: So, let's say at least

Tom: It's in the triple digit, surely.

Phil: They've announced layoffs that could affect over employees.

Phil: So they're in Scotland.

Phil: So as a part of the UK, if you're going to have massive redundancies, you have to have a -day consultation period.

Phil: You've got to report that to the government, like, hey, we're going to be laying off a whole bunch of people.

Phil: So they're laying off

Phil: They employed people in the UK and people internationally.

Phil: There's people working on this game.

Tom: So I was right.

Phil: You were dead right.

Phil: But I'm like, I wouldn't have thought that.

Phil: I would have thought like maybe people, like, because it's a startup.

Phil: It's a brand new gaming company.

Phil: How do you start a brand new company with employees?

Tom: Because they're making a game that's got ambitions to be AAA.

Phil: But where's the money come from?

Phil: Maybe it's Saudi money.

Phil: I don't know.

Tom: It comes from his perpetual motion machine, or maybe his money tree.

Phil: Money tree.

Phil: Because I guess if I was an investor, and you came to me and said, here's the guy that was a producer for all the Grand Theft Auto games from through till as well as Red Dead and and Chinatown Wars, I'd probably go, wow, this sounds like, I wouldn't say it's a sure thing.

Phil: You'd have to be an idiot to think it's a sure thing.

Phil: But I guess you'd, how do you, like if you employed people, let's say that they had in like a poultry $a year, right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: For, you know, for game development, that would be like the bare minimum that you could hire someone for.

Phil: That's $million a year.

Tom: Doesn't surprise me.

Phil: Yeah, okay.

Phil: And they developed it, let's say they developed it for three years.

Phil: I think it was actually longer than that.

Phil: Obviously, that's almost $million on a studio that hasn't released a single thing.

Phil: And then when they did release it, it's had a poor response.

Tom: I think we can call it a crushing failure.

Phil: I'd say so.

Phil: I'd say so.

Phil: Having said that, is your interest peaked?

Phil: Would you want to play Mindseye?

Tom: I'm more curious about it, given that it appears to be terrible than I was.

Tom: Well, it appeared to be terrible in the trailer too.

Tom: As I said, I highlighted the heart massage QT, which I thought was a terrible sign.

Tom: So I'm curious about it because it looks potentially comically bad.

Phil: I really want to play this game, but I don't want to pay American dollars for it.

Phil: And I have to...

Tom: Australian dollars.

Phil: That's too much for a joke play through.

Phil: I think I'm definitely going to play this game.

Phil: I'm really interested in it, because I bet it's not as bad as people say it is.

Phil: Well, maybe it is, but anyway, I want to...

Tom: It looked pretty bad to me.

Phil: I want to give it a go.

Tom: Maybe it will become a cult classic like Saints Row which was much hated on release.

Phil: The original Saints Row was visually very impressive, but very bland.

Phil: I'm not sure I'd go back to it for any reason, but it certainly got better in time.

Phil: That's for sure.

Phil: Number two and three were brilliant.

Tom: So I think we can conclude then it's a definite future cult classic.

Phil: Definitely.

Phil: It's a cult classic.

Phil: I think it's not going to be up there with cent blood in the sand or anything like that, but it's definitely something I want to play.

Phil: I want to get my eyes on it.

Phil: I want to get my hands on it.

Tom: Speaking of blood in the sand, why would it be Saudi money?

Phil: Because they're the only one.

Phil: Because people have got more money than God, and they've got that investment fund for video game development that I think cent.

Tom: Just because they want to invest in random shit because it's a meaningless amount of money for them is what you're saying.

Phil: That's exactly what I'm saying.

Phil: I could totally see if you went to someone to whom million dollars is not that much money, like a significant amount, but it's not like, it's not going to put them-

Tom: $note.

Phil: Yeah, probably to them it'd be more like a $note.

Tom: $note.

Phil: A $note if one existed.

Phil: You'd probably go, yeah, this looks like it could be it.

Phil: The level of salesmanship, did you ever hear the interviews leading up to the game Brink, Brink's launch?

Tom: I don't think so.

Phil: I occasionally, and it's always British people, I occasionally believe the hype for games that are about to come out.

Phil: So you will recall that I rightly predicted the success of Splatoon.

Phil: But then I also said that the golf game from the people who left Criterion, the people who made Burnout, they left Criterion and created their own game company, and they were making a golf game.

Phil: I'm like, this is definitely going to be the biggest thing.

Phil: This is going to be the next big thing.

Phil: It wasn't.

Phil: It was shoddy.

Phil: And as with everything that that studio went on to make, sort of half-baked, because they needed money.

Tom: What was the golf game?

Phil: I'd have to look it up.

Phil: Maybe you could look it up.

Phil: But I was similarly taken with a game from a British developer called Splash Damage, the developer's Splash Damage.

Phil: And the game was Brink.

Phil: It was a first-person shooter.

Phil: And it was online, and there was factions, and it had parkour.

Phil: It was basically Mirror's Edge with guns, but online.

Tom: Mirror's Edge also had guns, technically.

Phil: It technically did, but this was the whole, this was the whole, you know, the emphasis of it was that it was a shooter.

Tom: And the criterion golf game was dangerous golf.

Phil: Golf, right.

Phil: And it had ridiculously good physics or something.

Phil: The promise was that they were basically going to do what they did for burnout, stunt mode, but with golf.

Tom: And you thought that would be a great success?

Phil: Well, I was, the British people, they just started talking and I was convinced, you know.

Phil: It's like the Peter Molyneux and this guy, the Benz.

Phil: And then the people behind Brink, I listened to an interview with them.

Phil: I was like, yeah, I mean, I can't believe it.

Phil: This is going to be Mirror's Edge, but it's going to be online.

Phil: There's going to be factions.

Phil: There's different classes like medics, engineers, soldiers, operatives.

Phil: It's going to be fantastic.

Phil: This is back in and it was released for Windows and PlayStation and Xbox

Phil: I was really sold on it.

Phil: I went out and bought it at full price and of course, you know, no one played it and it sort of just fizzled out.

Phil: It got basically sevens out of ten.

Phil: They made their money on it.

Phil: They made, I think it sold about million.

Phil: It sold over million copies.

Phil: I remember that and because I guess people like me were similarly bamboozled.

Tom: So was it a success?

Phil: It was a commercial success.

Tom: So you were right then?

Phil: Well, they got their money, but the people who paid for the game didn't actually like it.

Tom: But the important thing is they got the money from them.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Other splash damage did return to Castle Wolfenstein, enemy territory Quake Wars, Doom

Phil: What were they doing?

Phil: Oh, they did the multiplayer for Doom

Phil: See, now I can see why I was getting sold on it.

Tom: Who did the multiplayer?

Phil: Splash damage, the same people that did Brink.

Tom: Okay.

Phil: And they did Quake Wars, they did the online Quake Wars thing.

Phil: Yeah, I can see why I was hyped for this.

Phil: Anyway, what were we talking about?

Tom: Dangerous Golf.

Phil: Yes, Dangerous Golf.

Phil: So it's been released and is now closed, I'm sure.

Phil: And Mindseye's launch was rough.

Phil: So where do you go from here if you are the Bens?

Tom: I think you go back to the money tree in the backyard.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: That's where I'd be going.

Phil: The story, there was a lot of buzz about Microsoft not going to release a handheld.

Phil: So basically, we talked last time about the ROG Ally, that's going to be branded with Microsoft branding.

Phil: And the story then was that Microsoft was like, yeah, we are not going to develop a handheld, we're just going to see how this goes with third parties.

Phil: Going to build a unified operating system that's Windows-based, that companies can license.

Phil: But more recently now, Microsoft has confirmed it's developing a next-gen Xbox console in partnership with AMD.

Phil: And they've said that they're making home consoles as well as handhelds.

Phil: The Xbox president, Sarah Bond, emphasized a unified platform that supports backward compatibility, enhanced graphics, powered by AI, because of course she is going to say that, and freedom from being tied to a single store or device.

Phil: So this sort of hints to the fact that we might see Steam and the Epic Store on Xbox platforms.

Tom: Wouldn't surprise me.

Phil: Which would be a, you know, a pretty compelling argument.

Tom: And vice versa, would we not be potentially seeing Xbox on the Steam Deck?

Phil: Why not?

Phil: I think they're the only barrier would be Gabe Newell.

Tom: And if it was limited to, I suppose they do sell Xbox games on the Xbox platform, but if it was, the focus was on game pass, it wouldn't necessarily be competing massively with Steam.

Tom: Which I don't think it is anyway, given the poor quality of the Xbox platform for playing any games you buy on it compared to Steam.

Phil: Why wouldn't Valve want Xbox game pass on their console?

Phil: Other than, you know, the fact that Gabe used to work for Microsoft and he hates Microsoft and that's why he's developed this alternate operating system.

Tom: So, pure prejudice.

Phil: But again, if Gabe was out of the picture, just to take the emotional and history out of it.

Phil: I mean, if Gabe was out of the picture, I think any observer of Valve would be like, well, why not?

Phil: Like, if we're going to get a percentage of the money, why wouldn't we let game pass on our system?

Phil: It's another reason why people would buy the Steam Deck.

Phil: And as you said, it's not as good as their experience.

Phil: So it's not like people are going to be like, oh yeah, I'm just going to get this Steam Deck so I can play Game Pass.

Tom: I think they might play it, use it for Game Pass.

Tom: I'm saying they wouldn't necessarily be buying games on it, on the Xbox platform rather than Steam.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I get you.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Anyway, the reason why I brought this up is because there was a lot of scuttlebutt about Microsoft not getting into handheld gaming or even people suggesting that they were not going to bring out another console, and that Microsoft is in their announcement of their ongoing partnership with AMD, confirmed that they will in fact do the same.

Phil: They have said it's going to be a unified platform, which basically means that a switch-like model perhaps.

Phil: They may just be talking about the operating system probably more likely.

Phil: And our final story, new story for this week is, Nintendo Switch owners are getting their consoles banned for inappropriate usernames.

Phil: Nintendo Switch console owners are being devastated with the first wave of system-wide bans that have rendered their consoles bricked, and are not able to access Nintendo's online services.

Phil: Now, the use of the word bricked there is not quite true, because they're not bricking the consoles.

Phil: They're just not letting them on to the online service.

Tom: Can they still play games from the Nintendo Shop?

Tom: Just not online?

Phil: I wouldn't think so.

Phil: No.

Phil: I think you...

Phil: Well, we'll find out.

Phil: According to the Nintendo support, the bans are irreversible.

Phil: Users will be unable to access the eShop, system updates, or download and play game-key cartridges.

Phil: Turning the Nintendo Switch into an offline-only console.

Phil: That is severe.

Phil: Like, if you cannot...

Tom: That's insane.

Phil: They don't like your username, and so now you're not going to get any updates or access the eShop.

Phil: Like, they're basically taking all of the online capability away from the console because you've chosen...

Tom: So I assume Nintendo is also having them return the console to them and giving them a full refund?

Phil: No.

Phil: No.

Phil: So now, in this instance, I want to read you something about it because I didn't understand it.

Phil: But first of all, the Reddit user that reported this was banned after a family member of theirs reportedly changed their profile name to Twink Link.

Phil: The Reddit user further remarked that they were prevented from accessing any Nintendo services.

Phil: Nintendo support issued a response stating permanent console bans cannot be revoked, leaving the owner to return the system to GameStop and recover their account data via the Cloud.

Phil: Okay, so they returned their console back to, they probably did a factory reset and then return it back to GameStop, who's for whatever dumb reason accepted it and then have gotten a new one, and they've been able to download their account data onto their new Switch

Tom: So they can then access their content that they've bought.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: Presumably, they changed the name, the online username because the online username is like an alias, right?

Phil: So you've got your account just like on Steam, and you can change your username every day if you want.

Phil: But my question is, if it's tied to the console, then I guess someone else using a different account would be able to use it?

Phil: No, because then you just change your username.

Phil: That's the part that doesn't make sense to me.

Tom: I don't understand if you can change your username, if you use a username that gets banned, why can you just simply not change it to a name that Nintendo does not deem offensive?

Phil: Probably because you've got to go online to change the name.

Tom: That still doesn't make sense.

Phil: This does not make sense to me at all.

Phil: No, because if you could factory reset it, you just factory reset it, but it's actually tied to the console itself.

Phil: So the one part of the story that doesn't make sense to me is how the guy returned it to GameStop.

Phil: But that's getting into the weeds.

Phil: Nintendo of America's community guidelines prohibit offensive, illegal or inappropriate usernames, warning users of penalties such as removal of content or suspension of services on a permanent basis.

Phil: That's the policy that sucks.

Tom: Petite homosexual men are not allowed to be involved with Nintendo.

Phil: Well, the username in question was Twink Link, right?

Tom: That's what I'm saying.

Phil: Yeah, I know.

Phil: I know what that means.

Phil: But I guess, apparently to Nintendo, the word Twink...

Tom: They don't like the gaze of Nintendo...

Phil: .

Phil: is obscene, illegal or inappropriate.

Phil: But, you know, there's other...

Tom: Homosexuality, according to Nintendo, is obscene, illegal or inappropriate, all of the above.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So, yeah.

Phil: They're...

Phil: I think they need to be boycotted, honestly.

Tom: I think...

Tom: I think Nintendo is...

Tom: The depths to which they sink...

Tom: Apparently, they have still not found the bottom yet.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: I...

Phil: But, okay, to the bigger point, though, like, to me, that's not...

Phil: That is not an offensive username, right?

Tom: Of course not.

Phil: F slur n-word would be a profile name that would probably fit into being obscene, right?

Phil: Or inappropriate.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: It would be a funny username.

Phil: But, you know, I...

Tom: I don't see how Twinkalink is offensive, inappropriate or illegal.

Phil: No.

Phil: I don't either.

Phil: I don't either.

Phil: It's a sad case of...

Phil: I'm not going to say censorship, but it's just...

Phil: I don't know.

Tom: Well, it is censorship.

Phil: It's revocation of consumer rights is what it is.

Tom: And it's bigotry as well.

Tom: I bet you could have a character called Petite Princess Peach, and there will be no problem.

Phil: Yeah, but probably not.

Phil: So you wouldn't have like Butch Peach, right?

Phil: That wouldn't be allowed?

Tom: Butch Bowser.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Now, hey, on to what we've been playing.

Phil: So me and you, we hadn't played Roblox.

Phil: We went out and played Roblox.

Phil: We gave our impression of it.

Phil: Me and you, we hadn't played Five Nights at Freddy's, and we went out and played Five Night at Freddy's.

Phil: What was your overall reaction to Five Night?

Phil: Yeah, Five Nights.

Tom: I think, didn't we cover it on the show?

Tom: I was definitely a big fan of it.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And to answer your question, in the last episode, we were talking about Nolan Bushnell and Chuck E.

Phil: Cheese.

Phil: Five Nights at Freddy's wouldn't exist without Chuck E.

Phil: Cheese.

Phil: Like, that could be because...

Phil: Of course.

Phil: It was set in a theme restaurant with animatronic, you know, robots and such.

Phil: So we've decided, hey, you know, we haven't really given Minecraft a fair shake.

Phil: It was one of the...

Phil: We deemed it one of the most influential games of the s.

Phil: And it's been around since

Phil: And I've tried to play it before and I found it incomprehensible, but then we've gone back and played it.

Phil: The game, of course, was purchased by Microsoft at some point for what seems a small amount of money these days.

Phil: In Microsoft bought it for $billion.

Phil: And they've been, in my mind, good stewards of it.

Phil: They have maintained the original Java Bedrock edition.

Phil: I'm sorry, they've retained the original Java edition, and now they've got the Bedrock edition, which is an improved engine.

Phil: And they allow, they have an education edition, which allows children and allows classrooms to use it freely without any licensing fees.

Phil: And it's obviously a way that kids get introduced to Minecraft, as did my daughter.

Phil: So, as I said, I bought it and played it, and I found it incomprehensible to start with.

Phil: We've both gone back and played it again.

Phil: Do you want to go through your impressions first, or?

Tom: Well, I think the first thing we should note is that I believe it's in the latest edition of the DSM as a way of diagnosing autism.

Tom: So by the end of the show, you will know whether Phil Fogg and Tom Towers have autism or not.

Phil: So if we like the game, we've got autism?

Tom: Yes.

Phil: That's a lot of kids that like a lot of kids with autism.

Phil: Maybe it's something in the water.

Phil: Maybe it's the vaccines, man.

Phil: You never know.

Tom: I think Minecraft might be the cause of it.

Phil: Might be the cause.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: So do you want to give your impressions or you want me to have a go at it?

Tom: So we all know my story of pre-ordering Minecraft and getting scammed by Notch.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: And swearing off ever playing Minecraft ever again.

Tom: But I think it is free now on quote free end quote, notwithstanding the subscription fees, on Game Pass.

Tom: Which I believe, yep, that's how I played it.

Tom: So I thought I could finally play it without giving Notch too much money at least.

Tom: So I think I tried to play it a while ago as well, both the VR version, which I could never get to work with the Quest and the normal version.

Tom: And I found it completely and utterly incomprehensible.

Tom: You walk around an interesting environment, the blocky aesthetic is engaging and it has its own surprisingly engrossing atmosphere as day changes to night and you start getting attacked by zombies and suicide bombers and the like.

Tom: But the gameplay appears to simply consist of you walking up to a block, holding down the left mouse button, waiting, repeating this action ad nauseam until you have enough resources to be able to build something, which you can use to protect yourself from the things attacking you at night, at least in adventure mode.

Tom: So the incomprehensible part to me is why.

Tom: And this is coming from someone who got to, I think, potentially the maximum level in RuneScape.

Tom: So I can't really talk, but for the life of me, I could not work out what the appeal was.

Tom: When I finally built a habitable shelter that protected me overnight from the marauding enemies, is I did not feel any sense of satisfaction, nor any desire to expand upon my newly built domicile.

Phil: Did you feel fear?

Tom: Well, that's, like I said, when night falls and you're being attacked, that's definitely, I think, the most immediate part of the game, is the way the enemies slowly creep towards you from the distance, and you can see them coming or suddenly spawn and explode nearby.

Tom: It definitely creates a sense of fear.

Tom: But when I managed to protect myself from the enemies, I don't know, it didn't really give me any sense of accomplishment, even though I had at least managed to work out a way to protect myself.

Phil: For me, I played in survival mode also because I play video games, right?

Phil: So they have a creative mode, which is what most kids play.

Tom: And obviously neither of us are in any way creative.

Phil: Well, if we want to play creative games, there's plenty of things to do, like the Factorium type stuff, or SimCity, or whatever you want to do.

Phil: But I played the survival mode because it seemed like the most game-like aspect of the game.

Phil: I didn't want to just fiddle around and make stuff like LEGO.

Phil: So, playing it as a survival game, I found that it was very effective.

Phil: There was minimal guidance.

Phil: The game doesn't hold your hand at all.

Phil: And the appeal of it is basically the open-ended exploration, right?

Phil: Much like Ocarina of Time, you know, on the Nand several hundreds of thousands of games since then, and basically part of the game is just being able to just walk around and discover things, like in Skyrim or Morrowind or any of those kinds of games.

Phil: So, the appeal is basically the exploration, but where the desperation, I felt, you know, pure desperation.

Phil: Like, I didn't know what I was doing.

Phil: I knew that when night came, I was going to have to, well, the first few times I just died because I didn't have any shelter.

Phil: I didn't know how to make shelter.

Phil: The reason why it was incomprehensible to me the other times I played it, because when I went up to a tree to hit it, I was like clicking or pressing the button, like, repeatedly.

Phil: But what you've got to do is actually hold, you've got to hold the button, you know, in order to get materials.

Phil: So once I figured that out, I was like, oh, okay, so this is actually how I'm going to get, start getting materials together.

Phil: And over time, you know, I, it just became, I liked the game loop of desperately getting resources and building before night time came, so I could have some form of protection.

Phil: And then I found that the night cycle was so long that I was like, okay, well, I'm going to start digging.

Phil: I'm going to start making my house, which I'm calling it a house is ridiculous because it was basically just the most clumsy set of blocks set up as a wall and a roof on it.

Phil: So I was like, okay, well, I'll start digging and then I'll...

Tom: I didn't put a roof on my fort.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: For two reasons.

Tom: One, I couldn't work out how.

Phil: Right.

Tom: Two, equally importantly, it allowed me to use the walls as an area from which I could safely attack the zombies.

Phil: What did you attack them with?

Tom: With the pickaxe.

Phil: Okay, I didn't have a pickaxe.

Phil: I just had a branch off a tree.

Phil: More of a stick, really.

Phil: Because I was digging with my hands.

Phil: I never got to this day.

Phil: I played this thing for two weeks, and I never actually got to the point where I had any tools.

Tom: Maybe I didn't have a tool, actually.

Tom: I may have misremembered there.

Tom: I may have just been punching them.

Phil: Yeah, punching them, which is very ineffective, unless there's a little...

Phil: I used to...

Phil: I made little holes through the walls that I could stick my stick through to scare them off.

Phil: But then I found out that some of the materials I was using, the zombies could, you know, knock down.

Tom: Yep.

Phil: It was a lot of...

Tom: That's the other advantage of having a wall system, is you're then at an elevated level compared to the zombies, which they can't get to.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: Anyway, the game really put me on edge, which I thought, okay, this is an emotion I'm feeling, and many games don't provide me with an emotion.

Phil: They provide me with an adrenaline punch, or they provide me with something that prompts me to think, you know, or try and figure something out, like that, you know, like a, you know, puzzle type games or mystery games or something like that.

Phil: But in this game, I felt something that I hadn't felt in a video game for a very long time, which was desperation, and I felt on edge.

Phil: And I felt like I was in danger, like all the time, and it made me paranoid.

Phil: Like, I was looking out my hut, because, you know, night time had come, so I'm like looking through my little window, because I'd set up these strategic windows so I could see what was going on.

Phil: And I'm like, oh my god, here's this other guy now, this weirdo is coming, and he's got an animal, and, you know, like, so the sun came up, and I'm still afraid to get out of my makeshift hut because this dude is over there, you know.

Phil: And eventually, I was like, all right, I'm just going to go over there and kill a guy, you know.

Phil: And I go over to him, and he's like the llama man.

Phil: He's like the shopkeeper, right?

Phil: There's a shopkeeper that comes through and buys and sells wares, but that's the whole thing.

Tom: And did you kill him?

Phil: I couldn't know.

Phil: I didn't kill him.

Phil: Well, I only had a twig anyway.

Phil: And as soon as I got close to him, he was like, hey, do you want to trade?

Phil: Do you want to do something?

Phil: So which I couldn't do anything because I didn't have any resources because I was never at the point where I could actually do anything other than survive.

Phil: And eventually, I got sick of it.

Phil: You know, I just was basically like, okay, this is really good, this feeling that I'm feeling, but I was never ever making any progress.

Phil: I spent all of my daylight hours strengthening my heart and getting resources to strengthen my heart.

Phil: And then the night cycle was just as long as the day cycle, or at least it seemed, where I couldn't do anything.

Phil: So I'm basically just sitting there, you know, waiting for the enemies to go away.

Phil: So after about, you know, cycles of that, I just got sick of it and bored with it.

Phil: But I can say, I can see the appeal.

Tom: I can see the appeal, but it's, I don't think for me.

Phil: No, it's certainly not for me, but it is for my daughter.

Phil: So she's playing it nonstop on the Switch and...

Tom: Is she building things or playing Survivor Mode?

Phil: No, she's definitely not playing Survivor Mode.

Phil: She's just building things and spawning things and in that mode, they give you access to everything.

Phil: So in that way, from an educational perspective, it's really good because it was teaching her about different animals that she'd never heard of before.

Phil: This is why every child in the st century knows what an axolotl is.

Tom: Due to Minecraft?

Phil: Due to Minecraft.

Phil: So the Mexican walking fish, I knew what it was, but I'm assuming most people didn't.

Phil: And it also teaches them about minerals, all the different minerals.

Phil: It teaches them about chemicals.

Phil: It teaches them about all sorts of stuff, like what floats, what doesn't float, you know, and causes them to experiment, which is a valuable thing.

Phil: And I think that's why it's good that they have it in schools.

Phil: So, she had built this house and then she at some point she filled it up with her animals and she loved all these animals, she loves foxes and all these other things.

Phil: And somehow a wolf got in it.

Phil: And a wolf eats everything, a wolf kills everything.

Phil: So she's sort of upset because this wolf is like killing all of her animals.

Phil: And I'm all like, well, kill it.

Phil: She saw, but she said it's wrong to kill.

Phil: So I said, no, but like, you know, if a wolf came onto our property and was eating our cows or attacking you, I would kill it because you've got to protect your family, you've got to protect your animals.

Phil: So, you know, you can kill something in self-defense morally.

Phil: And so she had developed this own, this is all in her head.

Phil: Like, obviously, she could have just killed the wolves.

Phil: So she thought about it, she's like, okay, well, I'll just kill the wolves.

Phil: So she killed the wolves.

Phil: Now, I'm not exaggerating.

Phil: Two weeks later, a whole bunch of axolotls had gotten into her house.

Phil: And the problem with axolotls is they flood your house because wherever the Mexican walking fish goes, it brings its own water with it.

Phil: So the water was coming into her house and it wasn't killing her animals.

Phil: It was just really annoying her because her house was filling up with water and there was nothing she could do.

Phil: And so, you know, a few minutes pass and then she's happy again.

Phil: I'm like, okay, well, what did you do?

Phil: She's all, oh, kill them all.

Phil: I know she didn't kill them because they weren't hurting anything.

Phil: So she spawned some wolves into the house that would kill the axolotls.

Phil: And then because the axolotls had been killed by the wolves, she then had the moral authority to kill the wolves.

Phil: Right?

Tom: Yep.

Phil: This is all her explaining this to me.

Phil: Right?

Phil: She's like, I get the wolves in, they'll kill the axolotls, and then because the wolves have broken the rules, then I can kill the wolves morally.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: I go, all right, that's pretty cool for a six year old, seven year old.

Phil: How did you get rid of the water?

Phil: She said, oh, I just put a whole bunch of sponges in there.

Phil: More sponges, yeah, like from the ocean.

Phil: So she spawned a bunch of sponges, sea sponges, to absorb the water and get the water out of her house.

Phil: So like, I think for me, that story alone is the reason why, you know, Minecraft is or can be for the right player, you know, a puzzle game in and of itself.

Phil: And I just thought the way...

Tom: I think it sounds like Minecraft is a terrible influence.

Tom: This is, I believe, exactly what led to cane toads taking over Queensland.

Phil: It could be.

Phil: I guess so, I guess so.

Phil: So all in all, Minecraft, I thought was really good.

Phil: I've gone on and on before about the similarities between Minecraft and a game called Tale of the Sun, T-A-I-L of the Sun.

Phil: It was made by a Japanese company called Art Dink.

Phil: And if you think for a few seconds, you'd be like, Art Dink, who are they, who are they?

Phil: They've made hundreds of games and they're one of the studios in Japan that Nintendo and Sony use as a, you know, as an anonymous developer for a lot of games.

Phil: And this was a PlayStation game in which is a good years before Minecraft came out.

Phil: And what it has in common is that it also has minimal guidance.

Phil: So you play as a caveman and you basically have to go around collecting things, building things in an open world, open-ended, you know, exploration type way.

Phil: It has survival elements.

Phil: You've got to gather food.

Phil: You've got to breed to grow your tribe.

Phil: You've got to build things.

Phil: And it also has a day night cycle.

Phil: And when the game came out, it was universally panned because, like I said, there was no handholding.

Phil: It was basically just an open-ended world where you just go and explore.

Phil: And obviously, for the PlayStation...

Tom: You got, in fact, a out of from EGM.

Phil: From EGM, yeah.

Tom: That's right, a .

Phil: Yep.

Phil: Which makes the game...

Phil: Now, I immediately, as soon as the game came out and I saw the scores, I immediately went out and got a copy because I was like, this is going to be, you know, years from now, this is going to be a rare game.

Phil: This is, good god, we're actually years away from

Phil: Okay.

Phil: And so, but, you know, I actually liked playing it because it was unlike anything at the time and very ambitious.

Tom: I don't think it was universally panned.

Tom: I think that it was mixed.

Tom: Some places seem to have hated it and some places seem to have actually given it quite reasonable or even high scores.

Phil: Like who?

Tom: I think it's got a % from Game Fan, whatever the fuck that is.

Phil: It's a game magazine back in the day.

Phil: That's funny.

Tom: A out of from IGN, so just only slightly below average.

Phil: What again?

Tom: from Game Informer, a B plus from Game Revolution.

Phil: I think Dan Rykett reviewed it for Game Informer, but...

Tom: Most importantly, a B from Entertainment Weekly.

Phil: Oh, how did Entertainment Weekly?

Phil: It had to have been a website.

Phil: It had to be a stupid...

Phil: it was the dawn of the Internet, or it was the dawn of the web browser anyway.

Phil: So all in all, Minecraft, I think in total, I can see the appeal.

Phil: Obviously, it has something because you can see its success over, at this point, multiple generations of children who love it.

Phil: And I think it has a lot of merit in terms of getting kids to understand things about the world around them.

Phil: And as a creative game, I think it's a good thing, obviously, rather than just something that you put them in front of and they just, you know, press B when they're told to press B sort of thing.

Phil: So all in all, I think it was a positive experience.

Phil: It was able to create a motion in me and yeah, I don't think I'd score it, but I can definitely see the appeal.

Phil: I do wish the survival mode was a little bit easier, but I'm guessing that if you were to play it longer, that's where the satisfaction comes from, which is overcoming this tremendous difficulty ramp.

Phil: I'd love to hear what our listeners think about our boomer views of Minecraft.

Phil: And if you are a fellow, experienced gamer who's gone through Minecraft, it'd be interesting to hear your take as well.

Phil: Just go to gameunder.net and leave a comment.

Tom: I was going to say we should definitely play creative mode, but I think secondhand impressions were actually quite detailed.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: And yeah, I think she did a good job with that.

Tom: So I am go-

Tom: I'm gonna give it a score.

Tom: I'm gonna roll the die of destiny.

Tom: Gets a out of

Phil: out of

Phil: I'm gonna roll the mini Fogg figure of correction.

Phil: And it gives it a out of

Tom: I'm gonna go with the due to my experiences with being scanned by Notch.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: That's fair enough.

Phil: You've got-

Phil: you do have some bias there.

Tom: It's not bias, it's consumer advocacy.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: You were ripped off.

Phil: It's legendary.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: So, now we're gonna talk about our old game.

Phil: It officially launched in

Phil: Many of our listeners will have played it.

Phil: It's called Vampire Survivors.

Phil: And I bought this because I thought it was Rogue Legacy, and it was on sale.

Phil: Have you played Rogue Legacy?

Tom: As in the Star Wars game?

Phil: No, no.

Phil: Maybe, maybe I've got the wrong name.

Phil: But in any case, Vampire...

Tom: Maybe I've got the wrong name.

Phil: Maybe.

Tom: Yeah, Rogue Legacy is a platform game with roguelike elements.

Phil: Okay, good.

Phil: So, that's the game that...

Tom: Rogue Squadron is the star.

Phil: That's right.

Phil: Anyway, there was a Steam sale.

Phil: There seems to be a Steam sale every weekend now.

Phil: And I thought it was that.

Phil: But I'd also heard of Vampire Survivors.

Phil: It's a tremendously popular game, at least.

Phil: I've heard a fair bit about it.

Phil: And I thought it was going to be like a roguelike platformer.

Phil: But it's actually a roguelike shoot-em-up.

Phil: Like, it's a top-down shooter, like bullet hell.

Phil: Like...

Phil: And it was developed by a single dude called Luca Gallente, launched in

Phil: It's available on all platforms.

Phil: It has...

Phil: So basically, if you can imagine the graphics from the NES Castlevania and the overworld of Final Fantasy, say -you pick it.

Phil: Like, you know, the overworld of even Phantasy Star for the Master System.

Phil: So you're basically looking at a Castlevania-type guy with a whip, walking around this, you know, landscape, which is all two-dimensional.

Phil: And then from all sides, there's these waves of enemies that are coming towards you.

Phil: You do not activate your weapon.

Phil: It automatically whips and it does damage forward and backward at the same time, providing you with a shield, if you will.

Phil: And it really is, again, there's no...

Phil: It doesn't so much start as it just happens to you.

Phil: There's no preamble.

Phil: There's no tutorial.

Phil: You're just dropped in a field and you have to figure out what to do.

Phil: So you can go in any direction, degrees.

Tom: Can you shoot in any direction as well?

Phil: Well, you can shoot basically only in front of you and behind you.

Phil: So you have to sort of move diagonally if you're going to get an enemy that's to your, you know, under you or above you.

Phil: And again, the weapon fires automatically.

Phil: It's sort of a boomerang type thing.

Phil: And the enemies that to start with are pretty weak and lame.

Phil: Some of them then need two strikes before they die.

Phil: They will give up little blue gems, which you can then, when you have enough of them, an outlandish chest appears with like a rainbow of money flowing out of the top of it.

Phil: And then you get to pick a boost, an upgrade for your weapon.

Phil: So if you think back to old school shoot-em-ups, like space shoot-em-ups like R-Type, and basically if you shot an entire wave of enemies, then you'd get an upgrade in your weapon.

Phil: It's sort of similar to that.

Phil: If you die, you can continue your run, or rather start over your run, but this time you've got the upgrades as well.

Phil: Every five minutes, every human five minutes, so you know, there's a, basically they put a fence around you.

Phil: It's like a fence of triphids, like these plants, these carnivorous plants.

Phil: So it's sort of like in Battle Royale, where the ring is getting smaller and smaller.

Phil: So after five minutes, they put a ring around you, and it starts getting closing in, and closing in, and closing in on you.

Phil: And you've got to kill all of the enemies and survive that wave before that will disappear.

Phil: And then, of course, you get a bonus for surviving five minutes.

Phil: So it is just like an old school shooter, or top-down shooter, or vertical scrolling shooter, sort of thing, sort of a hybrid.

Phil: If you can imagine, sort of like a Geometry Wars, but you're not restricted to a single screen, it sort of moves everywhere.

Phil: It's not a twin-stick shooter, obviously, but because you don't control when you fire.

Phil: You do get upgrades that do significant damage, and sort of shields, and all sorts of other things, like a mimic that walks behind you as well, and inflicts some damage.

Phil: Yeah, eventually you die, the screen fills, a number tallies your time, and then inevitably you press retry to give it another go, and it's just, it's got that dopamine type rewarding game play experience.

Phil: So I don't know that...

Tom: So it's another gambling game, would you say?

Phil: Well, you're not actually spending any money, and it's not like, I guess it's more like the rush of the original bullet hell shooters.

Phil: You're just trying to survive as long as you can.

Phil: You get the dopamine rush of getting these upgrades that make you more and more powerful as you go along.

Phil: The challenge is always there because the enemies are getting harder and harder as you go along.

Phil: And it's just fun.

Phil: It's just fun.

Phil: And yeah, certainly a game I'd recommend.

Tom: I think on the gambling aspect of it, I've come across an interview with Luca Galante.

Tom: I think this is something we talked about a few episodes ago.

Tom: And if I quote Mr.

Tom: Luca Galante, Slaughter games are very simple.

Tom: All the player has to do is press one button and the game designer has to find a way to push the player to press that button.

Tom: The player is actually spending money every time they press it.

Tom: And because of that, there's a huge attention to detail, the animations and the sequences, because they have so few elements to work with.

Tom: So, he was consciously, apparently, designing it in the manner of a slot game.

Phil: Oh, okay.

Phil: Well, it makes sense.

Phil: I mean, you do keep coming back for more.

Phil: But there's no loot boxes in this game.

Phil: Like, there are loot boxes, but you're not paying for them, you know.

Phil: He hasn't used it to exploit.

Tom: Which is good.

Tom: I think the gambling games we spoke about last time, we're also not using it in an exploitative manner.

Phil: I've also played Monster Train.

Phil: I've written a mini review of that if you want to read it over at gameunder.net, and I'll talk about that in the next episode if there is time.

Phil: What have you been playing?

Tom: I've still just been playing Clair Obscur Expedition

Phil: Is it your game of the year?

Phil: Is it the best game released in for Tom Towers?

Tom: Well, I've failed to keep track of the games I've played this year, so I have no idea.

Phil: Is it in your top of RPGs of all time?

Tom: I would have to think about what my top RPGs would be.

Tom: I think Final Fantasy VII, VIII, X would be up there.

Tom: Maybe Baldur's Gate III, Scepterra Core.

Tom: There could be an argument made for Planescape Torment, but I don't know if I would make that argument.

Tom: Were you about to say something?

Phil: Scepterra Core.

Phil: Remind me, what's that one?

Tom: Scepterra Core Legacy of the Creator was another Western-made JRPG-inspired RPG.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Yeah, it's got huge out of on Steam.

Tom: Legend of Dragoon is another one I would put up there.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It looks like a Diablo-type sort of game.

Phil: Scepterra Core.

Tom: In terms of exploration, maybe, but it's a turn-based battle system.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: So, Clair Obscur, just to say, would you put it in your top RPGs of all time?

Tom: It could potentially get into the top I would say.

Tom: Wow.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, have you finished the game?

Tom: I have finished the main story.

Tom: I'm still doing some of the side content.

Tom: However, but I think having finished the main story, I can do final impressions.

Tom: And at the end of the final impressions, we are unfortunately going to have to go into spoiler territory because they are important to, I think, the overall quality of the game, I would say.

Phil: Sounds good to me.

Phil: We'll just make sure we flag it ahead of time for those who haven't played it.

Tom: But before we get into the spoiler territory, I can talk about the story without spoiling things to some degree.

Tom: So at a certain point in the story, there's a twist that you can to some degree sort of see coming due to the painting related themes in the game.

Tom: I won't say what it is, but it's a cliche, but in this case, it's used very well, and particularly with the surreal aesthetic of the environments and the enemies, it works extremely well.

Tom: I think some people have criticized it for perhaps taking away some of the potential gravity of the story related to some of the characters.

Tom: I don't think that's the case, given the logic of the story and the themes.

Tom: But I do think that the ending where you're given a choice as to what to do is very undercooked compared to the rest of the narrative.

Tom: The two choices you're given, which are based on what the two protagonists in the game want to happen, I think is very poorly developed.

Tom: And the way it pans out in the ending as well doesn't really take the struggles that the characters are going through in any interesting direction at all.

Tom: Particularly one of the endings where a character who was...

Phil: I guess we've gotten into spoiler territory pretty quickly here.

Tom: No, I'm going to explicitly spoil things.

Tom: This is just...

Phil: You've spoiled it.

Phil: I was going to play this game.

Phil: Now I know there's a choice at the end.

Tom: How are these spoilers?

Phil: That's a gameplay spoiler, dude.

Phil: It's a gameplay spoiler.

Tom: Who cares about gameplay spoilers?

Phil: That's the only spoilers I care about.

Phil: I don't care about the story.

Phil: I'm not going to watch the goddamn story.

Phil: If you tell me, for example, that Grand Theft Auto ..

Tom: There's a boss battle at the end.

Phil: No, no.

Phil: Grand Theft Auto is great until you get to the hoverboard levels.

Phil: That's a gameplay spoiler.

Phil: That's a spoiler.

Phil: You know?

Tom: But you gotta talk about that, surely.

Phil: What, the hoverboard level?

Tom: You gotta talk about the hoverboard levels in Grand Theft Auto.

Phil: Yeah, but no, I'm not gonna spoiler for people.

Phil: It's a gameplay spoiler.

Phil: They haven't had hoverboards in there before.

Phil: You know what else?

Tom: I'm just gonna spoil everything then.

Tom: No, let me just...

Phil: I'm asking the questions here.

Phil: They've never...

Tom: No, no, no, no, no.

Tom: I'm just gonna mention everything explicitly now.

Phil: Okay, well, I'm gonna just ask you, has it ever been a good windsurfing game?

Phil: Has it been a windsurfing game made at all?

Tom: Windsurfing?

Tom: I think...

Tom: Which browser is it?

Tom: I think Chrome.

Phil: Has a windsurfing game?

Tom: That's not windsurfing though.

Tom: I think it's just surfing.

Tom: Chrome has a surfing game, but no, you don't have a sale.

Tom: So I don't think it's windsurfing.

Phil: I think there's been a dearth of sailing games.

Phil: I guess you can point to Wind Waker as one, obviously.

Phil: Oh, and of course, the big Microsoft one from Rare is obviously a big one as well.

Phil: But I'm thinking about like sports sailing, you know?

Phil: Catamarans and stuff.

Tom: Maybe there's some sailing mini games in some of the Olympic games, perhaps?

Phil: Yes.

Phil: I explicitly remember like on the Commodore or some other proto computer playing some sort of windsurfer game and I haven't played it yet.

Phil: Maybe the direction of games can probably focus on.

Tom: If I can just give you another spoiler here, there's no sailing levels in Clair Obscur.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: All right.

Phil: Well, what's the point then?

Phil: Now, my question is, when you've got a game with a really good narrative and some people are saying that they'd played this game alone for the narrative, but it also has some good gameplay as well.

Phil: If you look at like the Mass Effect problem, where you've got a strong narrative, and then you just basically get to the end and go, you pick how the story is going to end, right?

Phil: It's never a satisfying experience, and I don't know why that is, because couldn't they write both choices equally great?

Phil: Like couldn't they have two brilliant narrative choices at the end, so that if you're picking the choice, either way you pick, you're going to be satisfied with that?

Tom: I think you absolutely could.

Phil: And so why in this game, where they've constructed a good narrative, why?

Tom: Another example, this would be Life is Strange as well.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: And I was happy with Life is Strange either way.

Phil: I did go back and play it again and picked both options.

Phil: And I was equally happy with both.

Phil: I was like, yeah, both of those are outcomes that could have happened.

Phil: Now, the reason why you're giving the player the choice over your narrative at the end of the game is because video game, right?

Phil: Hey, it's an interactive medium, so here you go, interact with it.

Phil: Or you think it's going to give the player some sort of sense of satisfaction that they otherwise wouldn't have.

Phil: I just don't understand if you've got a good narrative, why you would hand it over to the player.

Phil: I can understand all the altruistic ways.

Phil: Well, we respect the player and they've loved the game and they've gone this far in it, so why not give them a choice?

Phil: What was your experience then in the strong narrative game when you got to making this choice?

Phil: Did you feel that either choice was satisfactory and fulfilled the narrative up to that point?

Tom: I think on the epistemological point you're making there, one issue with having multiple potential endings to a narrative based on a choice is, in reality, there are no multiple endings based on a choice.

Tom: There is only one ending based on a choice.

Phil: Yes, but I can see how this is unsatisfying, right?

Phil: Let's say you live a life and it's narratively interesting, and then you get to the end and they say, well, do you want to die by being hit by a bus or by being hit by an ice cream truck?

Phil: It's kind of like, well, okay, ice cream truck, I guess, for the irony.

Phil: It just seems like it's going to be a downer.

Phil: It's not going to be as satisfying when you're reading a really good book and at the last minute they turn it into a choose-your-own adventure and you pick to go to the left and a bear eats you.

Tom: I think there's ways it could potentially work, and I think this is an example of an ending where it could potentially have worked, just particularly given that the choice is based on two conflicting views between characters in the game.

Tom: But I think surely we've just got to go into explicit spoiler territory at this stage.

Phil: Yeah, let's do it.

Phil: Let's go.

Tom: So basically, as we know, every year this Pinterest character is reducing the lifespan of the populace.

Tom: As the story unfolds, it turns out that you are inside a painting, and the majority of the characters in the game are characters within this painting.

Tom: And within the painting, there are painters who are able to go in and out of a painting and live in it.

Tom: And this painting is the painting of the son of this family of painters, the youngest son, sorry.

Tom: And he was killed in a fire caused by some conflict involving writers, which is a totally needless narrative thread that is not expanded upon or explored in any interesting way, but that's beside the point.

Phil: Is it just an inside joke that the writers couldn't agree on how to finish it?

Phil: So they're saying, was it just...

Tom: Quite possibly.

Phil: Yeah, that's what I think.

Tom: But so the mother of the character is stuck in this painting due to her grief and wanting to be able to live inside the painting that her son made and interact with him.

Tom: His sister, who was involved in making a mistake by trusting the writers, allowing them to cause this fire, which killed her brother and disfigured her and damaged her voice, has also gone into the painting and to begin with is unaware of her true identity in classic JRPG style, but then later on discovers it.

Tom: And the third protagonist is the fake adult version of the son, who never got to grow up.

Tom: And the final choice in the game is between the fake adult version of the son and the real sister.

Tom: The real sister wants to maintain the canvas and keep living in the canvas, sorry, painting, while the fake son wants it to be destroyed, so that he doesn't have to continue living this false existence.

Tom: And the...

Phil: Okay, so hang on, sorry.

Phil: So you've got a character, a real character, who's in a fantasy land, wanting to stay in the fantasy land.

Phil: And then you've got the fantasy character saying they don't want to be in the fantasy land, they want to be in the real world.

Phil: And then you've got the dad.

Tom: Yeah.

Tom: Who wants to destroy the world, the fantasy world, so that the family can potentially move on with their grief.

Phil: Yep, that seems like a...

Phil: That's all credible.

Tom: So it's, yep, it's an interesting exploration of grief.

Phil: Yes.

Tom: The issue with the ending is that there's two endings.

Tom: So one where the fake version of the sun succeeds, and the canvas is destroyed.

Tom: The other where the real cyst succeeds and the canvas continues, which as a macabre ending, I think works very well because she then brings back the sun in the sun form and magically restores to life the dead husband of one of the painted characters that is one of the protagonists and other various wish-fulfillment things while being stuck in this painting and probably unlikely to survive it because apparently you can't stay in paintings for an extended period of time, which I think is an amusing and dark and disturbing illustration of someone failing to be able to deal with grief.

Phil: I like it.

Tom: I like it.

Tom: So I think that ending, that ending makes perfect narrative sense and is very well developed.

Tom: The other ending, on the other hand, is a bit of a problem because it ends with the painting being destroyed cut to pretty much next shot.

Tom: The family is visiting the grave of the dead son, and this character who has previously been totally incapable of dealing with her grief is magically, apparently beginning to move on, as illustrated by her reaction to the grave and expressions.

Phil: So in that world, the fantasy world is gone.

Phil: She can no longer live in that world where the boy is still alive, and she's come to terms with her grief and is moving on.

Tom: That's right, but there's no character development within the story up until this point for her to move in that direction.

Phil: Yeah, there's no indicators of her evolving to that point.

Phil: Yep.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: And you could have written it so that it was an internal conflict for her, where she could have potentially gone in either direction, but alas, they did not.

Phil: I would like one of those scenarios ending with someone going completely crazy, you know, with someone not being able to make the choice and being stuck in reality in the physical sense, but being stuck in the fantasy world in their mind and just basically being rendered inoperable.

Tom: Well the painting you could take is a metaphor for that.

Phil: Yes, you're right.

Phil: So how does this set itself up for a sequel, like for Clair Obscura ?

Tom: Maybe that's what the references to the writers are there for.

Phil: Yeah.

Tom: Because they're setting up a law of the outside world, with the painters being these sorts of demigod-like figures, and the writers being opposing demigod-like figures.

Tom: So I would presume if there is to be a sequel, it would probably expand upon that.

Phil: That's a really good thing.

Phil: Hey, if you can imagine a painting of a scene with multiple characters in it, and the painter has decided what they're going to do individually.

Phil: She's decided that that's how she's going to paint that painting, and that's what it's going to be.

Phil: Then you give that painting to two writers and go, here you go, write a story.

Phil: There would be some, you could write a story, but ultimately the painter is controlling that story because it's already been set in motion.

Phil: It's already been predetermined, I guess you could say.

Phil: Then there would be this challenge of, can't we just get rid of this?

Phil: I like the characters, but can we get rid of this scene so we can actually open this up and write something and have something more interesting happen and give these characters more life?

Phil: It's interesting.

Phil: It's a very interesting concept.

Tom: I think there's definitely potential there.

Phil: I'd like to see it as a stage play.

Phil: Not the actual game story, but like something like that.

Phil: I think visually it could be done very well.

Phil: I think in Laguna Beach every year they have something called Renaissance of the Masters where they get a whole bunch of people and they dress them up and they do their makeup and hair and everything and they recreate Renaissance paintings and you just go.

Phil: The people stand there and they freeze and you're looking at it in a D world from a stage perspective, but it's actually, I think from a stage play, there'd be plenty of stuff that you could do with that.

Phil: I don't think it'd be a very good play, especially if I wrote it, but I like it.

Phil: I like that.

Phil: That's great.

Phil: I mean, conceptually for a video game to have that going on, makes it very interesting.

Tom: Definitely.

Tom: But I think that the undeveloped half of the story was, I think, a pretty big let down, and I think that probably, definitely puts it down maybe a notch or two, in my estimation, overall.

Phil: Would you have preferred if they'd let you drive in the car and not give you the steering wheel?

Tom: I think they should just have developed it better.

Tom: They should have had a more conflicted character arc.

Tom: Then I think it could have worked fine.

Phil: And there's a, you know, when you're playing a video game, as a consumer, you're like, oh, they got to the end, and obviously they rushed.

Phil: It's like, no, that's not how it works.

Phil: You know, they could have written a story in its entirety, you know, from scratch, and so, you know, you can't...

Tom: They could have written the ending first.

Phil: Exactly right.

Phil: They could have developed the ending first.

Phil: They could have done that bit first, because that was the interesting part, and then gone, okay, now how do we get to this point?

Phil: So, are you ready to give this game a score?

Tom: Yes, I am.

Tom: It is time for the die of destiny to make its pronouncement.

Tom: It gets a out of

Phil: Wow, okay.

Phil: Well, listening to your review, I think it'd be more like a nine out of or maybe even an eight and a half out of

Tom: Definitely not a out of

Phil: Definitely not a out of no.

Tom: But alas, the die of destiny is the final word.

Phil: Yes, we cannot argue with the die of destiny.

Tom: Unlike a video game ending with two endings.

Phil: Well, thank you very much for that.

Phil: So what's the next game you're going to move on to?

Tom: Well, I've still got to do the side content of Clair Obscur.

Tom: So Clair Obscur is the next game we're going to move on to for now.

Phil: So you're one of these people that will continue playing a game after the credit roll?

Tom: It depends on the game.

Tom: In this case, the gameplay is fun enough that I will be.

Phil: Okay, well, we're going to move on to our feature now, talking about my generation.

Phil: And this is a feature where we discuss, which console did you favor in each generation?

Phil: So last time we talked about PlayStation Xbox One and Wii U, and the Wii U One, if you want to go back and listen to our discussions about that.

Phil: So in this, we're working backwards in time.

Phil: Eventually, we'll run out of consoles that we both played.

Phil: Which do you think that will be, Super Nintendo or PlayStation One?

Tom: PlayStation One, or no, Super Nintendo, yeah.

Phil: Yeah, I think that's probably going to be-

Tom: Of course I played the NES.

Phil: But you haven't played a Sega Master System, which would have been a competition.

Tom: No.

Phil: Yeah, you got to have at least played the competition, I think.

Tom: So then probably PlayStation will be the last generation.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Well, we're counting down.

Phil: We're at PlayStation

Phil: So PlayStation it came out, it was on the back of the most successful video game console of all time, the PlayStation except it had the Emotion Engine, or was it the Cell?

Phil: Was it the Cell Processor or the Emotion Engine?

Phil: And because one of those was for PlayStation the other was for PlayStation

Phil: PlayStation was definitely the Cell Processor.

Phil: And it was saying that it was, you know, multi-core processors, super powerful, super high quality build, and then of course, the Xbox came out, and that was coming off of the, you know, well, failure of the original Xbox.

Phil: The original Xbox's life was snuffed out prematurely by Microsoft because they could see that the new generation was coming.

Phil: The original Xbox was outstanding for many things, including having a built-in Ethernet right from the start, having a built-in hard drive right from the start.

Phil: Something, both things that you had to add to the PlayStation

Phil: But at that point, you know, people were still sort of curious to see where Microsoft was going to go with the Xbox.

Phil: And then of course, Nintendo took it in an entirely different direction after the GameCube with the Wii, promoting a low power system, but had the novelty of having a remote-like controller attached to a analog stick that you held in your other hand via a cable and relied on motion controls, among other things.

Phil: But also had an innovative online, as did the Xbox

Phil: Games, there was no shortage of games for all three consoles.

Phil: In this generation, you had a PlayStation and a Wii.

Phil: I'm not sure that you had a

Tom: I did not have a

Phil: Yep.

Phil: And what is your favourite memories of that generation?

Tom: I think there's no question I would pick the Wii between the two.

Tom: And I'm pretty sure I went to the midnight launch of the Wii to get one as well, which was an interesting experience.

Tom: It wasn't like the Halo midnight launch where there was a long queue that snaked around several shops.

Tom: You just walked in, got your console and walked out in the case of the Wii.

Tom: So that was nonetheless a highlight because it's rare that you get midnight launches in Australia.

Tom: And the Pscertainly had a lot of great games, but you can't go past the motion controls on the Wii.

Tom: Sadly, that did not continue in following generations because the games that used motion controls well were a totally different experience to games without motion controls.

Phil: So, I'm thinking about the motion controls and what games used them well.

Phil: A lot of games used them well.

Phil: They were surprisingly subtle in terms of the side...

Tom: Particularly with the Motion Plus.

Phil: Yeah, and with the side role, like I sort of felt the side role was pretty cool.

Phil: Probably the most memorable game to me on the Wii for motion controls was the Travis Touchdown game.

Phil: What was that one called?

Tom: No More Heroes.

Phil: No More Heroes, right.

Phil: I thought that was the best use of the motion controls, though there was no shortage of games that were fun to play.

Tom: Some other ones that come to mind immediately are Red Steel and Pro Evolution Soccer was, I think, one of the most interesting football games ever made, because with the motion controls, you could control players off the ball with a reasonable amount of detail resulting in some of the most interesting attacking football you could play in any football game.

Phil: Okay.

Phil: Let's talk about that.

Phil: Presumably, you were controlling your player with the nunchuck analog stick in your right hand, and then you're using the pointer on the Wii to-

Tom: To tell where other attackers to run or other defenders to run.

Tom: Exactly.

Phil: That's really creative.

Tom: And you also have the aiming for your passes and shooting with the motion control pointer as well.

Phil: See, if you were to replicate that on the PC by, like, you know, you've got a PC analog stick controller, you know, basically an Xbox controller in your hand, and you're using that with your right hand, to use the pointer with your left hand, you know, unless you're left handed, that would be really awkward and impossible.

Phil: But with the pointer, it's just more natural.

Phil: You could just point to it.

Tom: Exactly.

Tom: Well, on PC, you could possibly do it with a mouse in your right hand.

Phil: Yeah, you could use the left analog on the controller and then the mouse with your right hand.

Phil: But yeah, that's involving a lot of dexterity, both physical and mental.

Tom: So I think that was also one of the most underrated uses of motion controls, because people mention games like Red Steel, for example.

Tom: Red Steel that is, all the time.

Tom: But very rarely do you see Pro Evolution Soccer brought up as one of the best uses of motion control.

Tom: But I don't think there's another football game that has achieved that level of fluidity in gameplay since.

Phil: Yeah, I had never heard of that at all.

Phil: So that's pretty cool.

Phil: Of course, who can forget Super Mario Galaxy, one of the best games of all time in its sequel, which also made good use of the motion controls.

Phil: But I'm sort of struggling to think of other good games.

Phil: Like there was plenty of good games.

Phil: You know, don't get me wrong.

Phil: Little, not little, big story.

Phil: What was that?

Phil: The Little Prince?

Tom: Little King's Story.

Phil: Little King's Story.

Phil: That game was brilliant.

Phil: Absolutely brilliant.

Phil: And Resident Evil, Resident Evil ?

Tom: Four, yep.

Phil: Was fantastic with the pointer as well.

Phil: It was just so satisfying.

Tom: Absolutely.

Tom: Zack and Wiki is another one that comes to mind.

Tom: That was...

Tom: The motion controls were more rudimentary in it, but they were still fun.

Tom: And the atmosphere in that game was very unique in the puzzles.

Tom: Also a pretty unique style of puzzle solving as well, with a lot of layers to them.

Tom: Even though they weren't particularly difficult to solve, there were a lot of steps in the puzzles, which made them very interesting.

Phil: And who can forget Mad World?

Phil: The hyper-violent black and white brawler?

Phil: Yep.

Phil: That was...

Phil: It was a tough game.

Phil: I was unable to get deep into that game, but it was certainly interesting.

Phil: And also Manhunt.

Phil: Don't forget that there was a Manhunt for Rockstar.

Phil: I think it was the first M-rated game to come out on a Nintendo platform.

Tom: And Endless Ocean is another game that comes to mind.

Phil: Uh, Endless Ocean is another great game.

Tom: And you know what?

Tom: These games that you're mentioning, um, that come to mind, they're not AAA titles.

Tom: They're, generally speaking, mid-tier titles.

Tom: I think that was one of the best things about the Wii, was the quality of the mid-tier development games that it had.

Phil: Oh, definitely.

Tom: They were on another level to the equivalent games on the Ps

Phil: Did you play DeBlob, the Australian game, on...

Tom: Yes, I did.

Tom: Another great game.

Phil: Another great game.

Phil: Hey, here's one for you.

Phil: Boom Blocks.

Phil: Steven Spielberg's physics-based puzzler.

Phil: That game, to this day, is nails.

Phil: That game is amazing.

Tom: And Alades.

Phil: Which one was it?

Tom: Also known as Alabits.

Phil: Oh, Alabits, yes.

Phil: What did you call it?

Tom: Alades.

Tom: That's the Australian name for it.

Phil: Aldi.

Phil: Yeah, that's the shop that's where you go to get...

Phil: It's a different shop every time you go there, right?

Phil: Aldi.

Tom: Yes.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: And here's one for you.

Phil: House of the Dead Overkill.

Phil: House of the Dead Overkill.

Phil: That was another great game.

Phil: Fantastic game.

Tom: One of the best light gun games ever made, without question.

Phil: Without question.

Phil: I don't know if you ever played Muramasa, the Demon Blade.

Phil: It was by the people that did...

Phil: Well, you know who they do.

Phil: That was just a brilliant game as well.

Tom: So...

Tom: Is that the Odin's Fear developer game?

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yes.

Phil: Yeah.

Phil: It was stunning.

Phil: Absolutely stunning.

Phil: A D RPG.

Phil: And it had swordplay and all the rest of it.

Phil: Now, there were some duds on the Wii, but, you know, we don't have to talk about those here necessarily.

Tom: I'll take...

Tom: I will take a library of games where there are a swathe of unique and interesting games as well as crap ones, because you don't have to play the crap ones.

Phil: You don't.

Phil: You don't...

Tom: Oh!

Phil: Which reminds me...

Tom: Deadly Creatures.

Tom: I think it was called.

Phil: Oh, wow.

Tom: Yeah.

Phil: Deadly Creatures.

Phil: That had Dennis Hopper...

Phil: It was, I think, Dennis Hopper's last performance.

Phil: We reviewed it on our...

Tom: Arguably his greatest.

Phil: We reviewed it on our podcast.

Phil: I wrote a written review of it.

Phil: And basically you played as a series of insects in a desert.

Phil: Yeah, it was good.

Phil: Ninja Bread Man, you know, not as good.

Phil: But you've made a compelling argument for the Wii.

Phil: I think if you look at the PlayStation for me, it was everything that was great about the PlayStation generation, right?

Phil: So you had a rich diversity of games.

Phil: But there was so many games for the PlayStation and there was a lot of really good games like Batman, Arkham Asylum, and again, here you're starting to get into multi-platform games as well.

Phil: Nino Kuni was a good game.

Phil: That was the RPG which was like the Studio Ghibli look to it.

Phil: I'm just trying to think of other top, well, obviously, you've got the Uncharted games, The Last of Us, Red Dead Redemption, Grand Theft Auto V, all of those types of games as well.

Phil: But this is where it sort of starts to come apart a little bit because with the Xbox PSera, you had so many games appearing on both consoles.

Phil: But there was still a rich third-party presence on both systems.

Tom: Don't forget Demon's Souls and Dark Souls.

Phil: Demon's Souls, Dark Souls, look, we could go on and on and on.

Phil: There's so many fantastic games for the PlayStation

Phil: I think what happened with the Xbox I believe it came out before the PlayStation

Tom: The Xbox was the first console of that generation.

Phil: Right.

Phil: Therefore, it was the first truly HD video game console.

Phil: When you saw games like Gears of War, Halo rendered in high definition, it was fantastic.

Phil: But the real thing that the Xbox brought was Xbox off online, which had Xbox Arcade, which meant that independent developers were able to release their game without a publisher on the Xbox

Phil: Initially, you did have to go through a publisher.

Phil: Ultimately, you could self-publish.

Phil: You saw games like Geometry War from Bizarre Creations, Braid from Joe Blow, just countless other games.

Phil: Again, it's hard to point at.

Phil: Xbox really did nail the online video game experience and community building experience.

Phil: They introduced achievements.

Phil: Sony later came to the party with trophies.

Phil: It had the fantastic game, what is that, game?

Phil: Which was-

Tom: Wonderful ?

Phil: No, that was on the Wii U.

Phil: Wii U.

Phil: Yeah, I'm talking about the online.

Phil: It was a game show that versus or something like that, that was being played in real time for real prizes where people would go in and play.

Phil: It was like a trivia type thing.

Phil: It was truly innovative.

Phil: It had cordless, the Xbox introduced cordless controllers.

Phil: It was a great controller.

Phil: The Xbox controller basically set the standard for all pro controllers following.

Phil: I still use an Xbox controller on my PC.

Tom: And don't forget on the PSwe cannot fail to mention Yakuza and Killzone

Phil: Of course.

Phil: Yeah, yeah.

Phil: I mean, it was such a fantastic generation.

Phil: It's difficult for me to pick a winner.

Phil: But by your rules, and that is, you've got to produce a piece of consumer electronics that doesn't fail.

Phil: I had, I think, four...

Phil: I'm not going to exaggerate.

Phil: I had four Xbox s.

Phil: So I had at least three of them red ring.

Phil: Today, I have two Xbox s.

Phil: One doesn't work and the other is doing okay.

Phil: Now, to Microsoft's credit, they did, you know, I only had to pay for one even though I went through four of them.

Phil: And so that's good customer service.

Phil: But the problem was with the engineering on the initial side of things, I forget what the issue was, but basically once the console overheated, it caused some solder to melt, which basically bricked the system.

Phil: That's my understanding of what the problem was.

Phil: The problem with the PlayStation was that it was difficult to develop for, which as a consumer is not my problem, but it ultimately was my problem because it meant that games were more easily ported onto the Xbox

Phil: The PlayStation was not dominant in North America.

Phil: The was more successful because it was the first HD thing.

Phil: It was inarguable.

Phil: People would come to your house and see Gears of War and they couldn't get over how fantastic it looks.

Phil: To this day, it still looks great.

Phil: They brought the online, they brought cordless, they brought downloadable games.

Phil: There was a long stretch of time where...

Phil: Morrowind, they brought Morrowind.

Phil: There was a long stretch of time there where people were calling it the Geometry Wars system because that was the only game available to play that was worth anything.

Phil: But again, the failures of the hardware.

Phil: The PlayStation was super expensive at the time, but ultimately, you know, it was a store-work system and the later revisions to the hardware were good and eventually people learned how to develop for it.

Phil: So this one is really...

Tom: The PlayStation also had its own technical problems though.

Tom: My original PlayStation died with the infamous yellow light of death.

Tom: So it's another console generation where I had to get two consoles.

Phil: Yeah, that's no good.

Phil: I did get a second PlayStation

Phil: I wish I still had it, but I'm still working on my launch giga, which was backward compatible, which was a real folly for Sony because their subsequent releases of the hardware were not.

Phil: You can play PlayStation and PlayStation games on your PlayStation gig original launch system, which is fantastic.

Phil: And they did that through hardware.

Phil: And ultimately, when they revised it, they took out the PlayStation and PlayStation chips.

Tom: I think they kept the PlayStation backwards compatibility, but removed PlayStation

Phil: Yeah, well, whatever they did, it was shoddy and not good at all.

Phil: So I don't know, you obviously are going to pick the Wii.

Tom: There's no competition.

Phil: Yeah, it's hard to put a game like Yakuza against Little Kingdom, Little King's Story.

Phil: Yeah, Little King's Story against Yakuza, against the fun times I had with Gears of War and the open market of the Xbox

Phil: If I had to pick at this point, I'm going to sound like a real heel here.

Phil: If I had to pick at this point, based on the depth of the library, I'm going to have to go with PlayStation

Phil: My heart wants to say Wii, but my heart also wants to say because it was unique and fun.

Phil: When I think back to that era, I think of the online experiences I was having with the Xbox with my friends, like coming home and playing baseball with my friends who lived minutes away.

Phil: That's what I think of.

Phil: So in terms of the console of the generation as a figurehead, I would say is the

Phil: As the most influential, as the most important, I will say the Wii was because it basically saved Nintendo and put them on the path that they're onto today.

Tom: I'm being an evil corporation.

Phil: Yeah, who shuts down users for calling their character the username's Twink Link, whereas the PlayStation was merely just a continuation of the same.

Phil: There was no real innovation there.

Phil: All the innovation they did, they were dragged into by Microsoft with the online play.

Phil: And they never caught up.

Phil: They've only just now caught up with the PlayStation with online.

Phil: So I'd say, I'm gonna say that the console that defined the generation was the

Phil: If I had to pick one of them for my retirement library, I'd probably go PlayStation

Phil: If I had to go for most memorable experiences, I'd definitely have to go with the Wii.

Phil: So it's sort of a stupid tie, which is gutless, and I'm sorry.